New Political Group 'Claiming our Future'

[Newsy]

A NEW movement, reflecting “deep dissatisfaction with Government policies” and representing groups from across the State, will hold its first national meeting at the end of the month.

Claiming Our Future is supported by about 50 national groups including the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (Ictu), the National Women’s Council, the Disability Federation, the TASC think tank, Social Justice Ireland, the Community Platform and the Society of St Vincent de Paul.

Its first national meeting will be at the RDS, Dublin on October 30th. Its aim is to co-ordinate the views of hundreds of local and national groups in civil society who disagree with the way the crisis is being handled by the Government.

In germination for about two years, the movement was founded after discussions between the Is Féidir Linn network of community groups and other groups including Ictu and the Community Platform.

“There has been a lot of local protesting and being clear about what we don’t want. There was a sense in the discussions about shared values and shared barriers,” said the group’s co-founder, Niall Crowley, former chief executive of the Equality Authority.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1011/1224280785006.html

Their link;-

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/

It looks really interesting. People are getting together, to find another way.

[ang]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1011/1224280785006.html

Their link;-

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/

It looks really interesting. People are getting together, to find another way.

This is what is important Newsy, people coming together and merging ideas.

[Ah Well]

It's NOT a political group .. they say that on their own Website

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/?page_id=107

[C. Flower]

Would this be the same group ?

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=2401&highlight=Niall+Crowley

[Ah Well]

Would this be the same group ?

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=2401&highlight=Niall+Crowley

Is Féidir Linn are only a part of this Movement if the following is to be believed http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/?page_id=107

[Mick Tully]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1011/1224280785006.html

Their link;-

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/

It looks really interesting. People are getting together, to find another way.

Is this the ICTU named or is it a misprint if it is they should take their nose out of the trough before they attend.

[Newsy]

Is this the ICTU named or is it a misprint if it is they should take their nose out of the trough before they attend.

I don't think it is a misprint.


Claiming Our Future is supported by about 50 national groups including the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (Ictu), the National Women’s Council, the Disability Federation, the TASC think tank, Social Justice Ireland, the Community Platform and the Society of St Vincent de Paul.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1011/1224280785006.html

[Spectabilis]

The event on the 30th at the RDS looks interesting and it's free. If civil society can act to protect the individual from both the state and the market, then strengthening it this way may well be just what is needed. We have been failed by both the state and the market.

I am also curious about how they are using new technology to make the event a different experience.

[bormotello]

Just name of group tells a lot
Claiming our future - it means that group represent people with "entitled" mentality, who think that everybody owes them and they doesn't wont to build, work, create anything - only claim, claim, claim

[C. Flower]

Just name of group tells a lot
Claiming our future - it means that group represent people with "entitled" mentality, who think that everybody owes them and they doesn't wont to build, work, create anything - only claim, claim, claim

LOL :):):)

From a different political perspective to yours, I agree.

Having said that, I might go and take a look. I'm interested in group decision making.

[LeftAtTheCross]

LOL :):):)

From a different political perspective to yours, I agree.

Having said that, I might go and take a look. I'm interested in group decision making.

I'm going along to this event.

Agreed with you there Cass, there's a heavy flavouring of the community & voluntary sector in the mix.

I've commented elsewhere that it smacks of a realisation by this "pillar" of the ex-partnership process that the hand that has fed them is no longer interested in their support nor afraid of their bite, that they are awakening to the reality that their interests as a professional body primarily, and the interests of the sections of society which they claim or seek to represent secondarily, are not best served by the powers ruling the state.

As such it is a welcome crack in the middle class consensus and something which I personally believe should be engaged with by the Left.

[Apjp]

Just name of group tells a lot
Claiming our future - it means that group represent people with "entitled" mentality, who think that everybody owes them and they doesn't wont to build, work, create anything - only claim, claim, claim

I am worried there may be an element of truth here-despite my convictions in looking after those who need help most, I am afraid we cannot give SVP and other charities more funding like Bono and his crowd want us too. Also, what is a union led by jack o connor doing in this? They are the main vested interest here. I think that social justice ireland are good, and svp are important-but job creation should be the priority if a new government comes in soon-not another talking shop.

[Apjp]

LOL :):):)

From a different political perspective to yours, I agree.

Having said that, I might go and take a look. I'm interested in group decision making.

They are too different from each other, and not being political is a bad idea-for those not in ictu.

[Apjp]

Perhaps on point of order this thread should be re named just 'new group' rather than new political group?

[Ah Well]

Perhaps on point of order this thread should be re named just 'new group' rather than new political group?

Agreed - seeing as the Movement itself confirmed it is not a political group on its Website

[Mick Tully]

I am worried there may be an element of truth here-despite my convictions in looking after those who need help most, I am afraid we cannot give SVP and other charities more funding like Bono and his crowd want us too. Also, what is a union led by jack o connor doing in this? They are the main vested interest here. I think that social justice ireland are good, and svp are important-but job creation should be the priority if a new government comes in soon-not another talking shop.

Their are quite a few people belong to some of the groups mentioned were not aware that ICTU nose in the trough people were part of this. Lets see how it goes. :D :D :eek:

[C. Flower]

Their are quite a few people belong to some of the groups mentioned were not aware that ICTU nose in the trough people were part of this. Lets see how it goes. :D :D :eek:

Are you sure you aren't talking about SIPTU ?

What has ICTU been up to?

[Griska]

Of course it's a political group. Partaking in elections is not the only thing that political groups do.

[C. Flower]

Yes I agree. Not Party Political, but political.

[Ah Well]

Yes I agree. Not Party Political, but political.

Well ... fair enough. After all, Politics can be defined as a process by which groups of people make collective decisions.

So by that definition this would be a Political Group.

[jmcc]

A bunch of quangoites, ex-quangoites and assorted troughers? They should be aware, it is not their future.

Regards...jmcc

[C. Flower]

A bunch of quangoites, ex-quangoites and assorted troughers? They should be aware, it is not their future.

Regards...jmcc

I would be more than a little wary of them claiming my future.

[LeftAtTheCross]

I would be more than a little wary of them claiming my future.


Maybe there should be a little less cycicism from people.

The positive that I see in this event (let's not yet call it a movement) is that it aims to mobilise politically a cohort of people who until now were outside politics, but who were inside the corridors of power as one of the pillars of the partnership process. They have now been effectively jettisoned from that process as part of the slash and burn austerity mantra. This group of people knows that by themselves they don't have much political clout, but they are influential and well dispersed amongst the general population, and their call to mobilise "civil society" against the austerity measures, against an even more unequal and divided furure society, is in fact something prgressive and worthwhile.

Where the cynicism kicks, for me, is in the relatively limited scope of their aims as currently stated. Leaving aside the mobilisation of civil society, which might be viewed as a means rather than an end, their aims are fairly wishy washy reformist social justice stuff, as might be expected from a group heavily populated by the community and voluntary sector. However, it is up to the rest of us to participate and influence the group in a different direction if possible. Personally I would view the opportunity to mobilise civil society as a useful end in itself, to politicise sections of the population who previously have bought into the "we're all middle class now" model of society, and who will be feeling the pain of austerity in the next few years.

So that's why I'm going along to the event on 30 October.

[C. Flower]

Maybe there should be a little less cycicism from people.

The positive that I see in this event (let's not yet call it a movement) is that it aims to mobilise politically a cohort of people who until now were outside politics, but who were inside the corridors of power as one of the pillars of the partnership process. They have now been effectively jettisoned from that process as part of the slash and burn austerity mantra. This group of people knows that by themselves they don't have much political clout, but they are influential and well dispersed amongst the general population, and their call to mobilise "civil society" against the austerity measures, against an even more unequal and divided furure society, is in fact something prgressive and worthwhile.

Where the cynicism kicks, for me, is in the relatively limited scope of their aims as currently stated. Leaving aside the mobilisation of civil society, which might be viewed as a means rather than an end, their aims are fairly wishy washy reformist social justice stuff, as might be expected from a group heavily populated by the community and voluntary sector. However, it is up to the rest of us to participate and influence the group in a different direction if possible. Personally I would view the opportunity to mobilise civil society as a useful end in itself, to politicise sections of the population who previously have bought into the "we're all middle class now" model of society, and who will be feeling the pain of austerity in the next few years.

So that's why I'm going along to the event on 30 October.


Yes, there's more than one reason why it's worth going.


But will people also look at the way that the professionalised sector of community development in Ireland was used to subsume and stifle independent bottom up community organisation, and replace it with a model of dependency ?

[Newsy]

Just received this statement from Marriage Equality.


Claiming our Future is a new initiative, which evolved from a series of meetings between Is Feider Linn, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Environmental Pillar of Social Partnership, the Community Platform, Social Justice Ireland and TASC to explore a new vision for Ireland in these difficult times.

Claiming our Future has now evolved into a movement which includes different civil society organisations; trade unions, environmental groups, migrant worker organisations, youth groups, community groups, older people's organisations, cultural groups, student groups, developing world groups, rural networks, women's organisations, disability groups, social media and social justice organisations.

On the 30 October next, Claiming our Future are hosting an event of the same name in the RDS, Dublin to give people a space and opportunity to talk about the issues facing Ireland, how we can make this a better society and what steps need to be taken to fulfil this vision.

This event offers the opportunity to power a progressive movement to reshape Ireland's recovery and claim our social values. It also offers an important opportunity to position equality at the core of our society, so we can shape a better Ireland for all.

Over the next two weeks, events will be taking place locally in the lead up to the conference - you can find out details about these events by visiting: http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/?page_id=64

Places are filling up quickly, so if you are interested in attending, please register as soon as possible at: http://www.claimingourfuture.ie .

Best Wishes
The Marriage Equality Team

[smiles]

Just a thought :) it seems there are people who are trying to be proactive about the situation this nation is in and I reckon they should be supported in their efforts.. Have read through alot of the recent discussions on here and it seems like there are some great points that have withstood the usual critiques.. How about compiling those and offering them to this organisation as possible ways forward? Rather than waiting to see what they come up with on their own and then tearing it apart why not unite the forum to coming up with say 10 valid ways forward, argue and vote here and send them the cream of the crop.. The knowledge is here why not harness it??

[jmcc]

This is why people don't trust such ventures:
Fianna Fail.
The Ideas Campaign.
Your Country Your Call.
Quango/collaborator driven astroturf campaigns.

Regards...jmcc

[Rich]

It really depends on who 'our' is. Read in a cynical way it could be read as 'protect our funding'. I hope not, but I would need to see a position paper before giving any support. Some of those involved helped keep FF in power by selling their souls to the devil.

[LeftAtTheCross]

It really depends on who 'our' is. Read in a cynical way it could be read as 'protect our funding'. I hope not, but I would need to see a position paper before giving any support. Some of those involved helped keep FF in power by selling their souls to the devil.

Claiming Our Future have a discussion document on-line at:

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/wp-content/uploads/CLAIMING-OUR-FUTURE-choices-discussion-document-final-FINAL-DRAFT.pdf

It's light enough on detail.

[Rich]

Claiming Our Future have a discussion document on-line at:

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/wp-content/uploads/CLAIMING-OUR-FUTURE-choices-discussion-document-final-FINAL-DRAFT.pdf

It's light enough on detail.

Thanks

Will have a look now.

[Rich]

Document talks about spending money in those areas represented by those involved. BS use of the word 'invest' all over the document.

Not one concrete proposal.

[Mick Tully]

Are you sure you aren't talking about SIPTU ?

What has ICTU been up to?

Re noses in the trough should read Shane Ross ( top of the Agenda) Sunday Indo. 10/10/10 . What fat cats got the cream. :D:D:D

[C. Flower]

Re noses in the trough should read Shane Ross ( top of the Agenda) Sunday Indo. 10/10/10 . What fat cats got the cream. :D:D:D

Any chance of a link, please ?

[Mick Tully]

Any chance of a link, please ?

Sorry new to this how do I post a link.

[Kid Ryder]

Maybe there should be a little less cycicism from people.

The positive that I see in this event (let's not yet call it a movement) is that it aims to mobilise politically a cohort of people who until now were outside politics, but who were inside the corridors of power as one of the pillars of the partnership process. They have now been effectively jettisoned from that process as part of the slash and burn austerity mantra. This group of people knows that by themselves they don't have much political clout, but they are influential and well dispersed amongst the general population, and their call to mobilise "civil society" against the austerity measures, against an even more unequal and divided furure society, is in fact something prgressive and worthwhile.

Where the cynicism kicks, for me, is in the relatively limited scope of their aims as currently stated. Leaving aside the mobilisation of civil society, which might be viewed as a means rather than an end, their aims are fairly wishy washy reformist social justice stuff, as might be expected from a group heavily populated by the community and voluntary sector. However, it is up to the rest of us to participate and influence the group in a different direction if possible. Personally I would view the opportunity to mobilise civil society as a useful end in itself, to politicise sections of the population who previously have bought into the "we're all middle class now" model of society, and who will be feeling the pain of austerity in the next few years.

So that's why I'm going along to the event on 30 October.

It's interesting to see that Niall Crowley, other assorted quangocrats and ICTU have re-discovered the rest of us just after their govt sugar daddy pulled the plug on them. The cynicism that many other posters have shown towards this 'initiative' and the people behind it is well-founded.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Document talks about spending money in those areas represented by those involved. BS use of the word 'invest' all over the document.

Not one concrete proposal.

It's more of a discussion document, to set the broad scope for the debate. If you want people to think outside the box so to speak I guess you don't go straight for a set of concrete proposals from the off, that would limit the scope of the discussion altoogether.

If you want some detail, Social Justice Ireland, one of the organisations behind the event, have an alternative budget strategy on their website:

http://www.socialjustice.ie/content/alternative-costed-budget-shows-how-government-could-reduce-borrowing-%E2%82%AC3bn-while-protecting-

BTW, I don't want to position myself as a defender of the Claiming Our Future event, or as a spokesperson for Social Justice Ireland, I'm just saying there's plenty of material out there from the various organisations involved if you go digging for it, e.g. TASC also, they just don't serve it up on a plate for you from the off. Which is a fair enough approach, to avoid becoming swamped by detail far too quickly, to avoid getting involved in disagreement over detail before reaching concensus on the scope of the project etc.

I imagine the COF event itself at the end of the month will in some respects attempt to steer that concensus towards some distillation of the broad strokes of social justice / social equality / social democracy policy that's currently buried in the detail of the documentation from the various member organisations.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Just to follow up on that previous post, TASC (Think tank for Action on Social Change, I think) have just published their budget 2011 submission:

http://www.tascnet.ie/upload/file/Investing%20in%20Recovery,%20Jobs,%20Equality_1410 10.pdf

[PaddyJoe]

Vincent Browne just mentioned the 'Reclaiming the Future' grouping which will feature at some stage on the programme in the next half hour or so.

[C. Flower]

Vincent Browne just mentioned the 'Reclaiming the Future' grouping which will feature at some stage on the programme in the next half hour or so.


Strongly promoted on Politico.ie, last time I looked.

[red revolution]

it's worth engaging with I just wonder are they open to left political parties as well as Labour heads? No mention of political parties in the document posted. It could be a good thing that comes out of this depression if the community sector becomes independent again after being completely coopted during the boom - and for what really? Look at the state of O'Devaney Gardens and all the other neglected estates they were meant to helping. It would be better to mobilise more people on the ground rather than charity workers but if some NGO types can be radicalised by this whole experience I really welcome it.

[PaddyJoe]

Siobhan O'Donoghue of the Migrants Rights Council discussing the 30th October RDS meeting now on VB.

[red revolution]

1000 people coming she says - I'm not sure about the anti-political party thing though. It's that 1990s civil society mantra that all too easily shades into 'pluralist' lobby group politics. Fair play to Peter McVerry for calling for civil disobedience while everyone else on the panel visibly baulks at the idea. And O'Donoghue just said 'We're not taking about breaking the law' which is not a good sign that they're already less radical than a Catholic priest. She also said 'people have been so afraid of sticking their heads above the parapet' - which is certainly true of the state supported community sector (couldn't resist the dig!)

[PaddyJoe]

1000 people coming she says - I'm not sure about the anti-political party thing though. It's that 1990s civil society mantra that all too easily shades into 'pluralist' lobby group politics. Fair play to Peter McVerry for calling for civil disobedience while everyone else on the panel visibly baulks at the idea.

Although he's not too sure what 'civil disobedience' actually consists of when VB asks him if it means breaking the law. When he said that Jesus broke the law all the time and then struggled to find examples I wondered both about his grasp of the New Testament and his conception of 'civil disobedience':)

[red revolution]

true but he did still say the law should be broken when it's unjust and against the people - I've always has a soft spot for radical priests like him although they're a bit of a dying breed these days - like all priests I suppose..

[PaddyJoe]

[QUOTE=red revolution;79821]true but he did still say the law should be broken when it's unjust and against the people - I've always has a soft spot for radical priests like him although they're a bit of a dying breed these days - like all priests I suppose..[/QUOTE
Likewise. I'd guess that all the old radical priests are beside the fire with the pipe and slippers these days. From what I hear anecdotally the few 'young priests' around these days have swung back to right wing conservatism.

[red revolution]

just been reading this document about them here http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/wp-content/uploads/claiming-our-future-pack-q-and-a1.pdf

where they say they do not include political parties which is bs frankly as half the TASC heads are members of the Labour party including at least one former councillor I can think of and pretty much everyone from ICTU will be affiliated to one party or another. The same rule was implemented in the World and European Social Forums and simply meant that party members attended, nominally as individuals, in a dishonest way as they were not allowed to organised publicly so you had blocs of people secretly cooperating and not letting on what they were up to. This is a really silly way to go as parties are bound to show up with civil society hats on anyway. It would be much better to allow parties to join openly if 'Claiming our Future' are really interested in openness and honesty to prevent the thing from being manipulated behind the scenes from the start. This really makes me wary of the thing as exactly the same mistake was made with the social forums and you would think people would learn from experience. They also seem to be following the social forums in going for consensus based decision-making http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/wp-content/uploads/claiming-our-future-fourth-draft-agenda.pdf which in my view is also a mistake as it ends up being less democratic than simply voting on things in an open and honest way. Consensus can only work in very small likeminded groups, if even that, and just does not work with large groups as envisaged.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Just watched Siobhan O'Donoghue on VB's show. Not very impressive. Fairly poor in fact in terms of really defining the scope and vision of the COF event, or fleshing out any examples whatsoever of what the alternative vision might include.

On the issue of involvement of political groups, the registration page does include "political activism" as one of the participant categories, so one would have to assume that in fact they're open to the involvement of people from such a background, whether on an explicitly individual basis or presumably on the basis of formations. It would be naive to assume that participants will leave their affiliations at the door. Mind you, maybe one shouldn't underestimate the capacity for naivety.

Still, I refuse to be cynical, there is potential here, and it's up to people to get involved, to contribute towards grounding this in the real world.

[Mick Tully]

I looked at VB tonight and seen one of the group involved, it really inspired me and I really am excited about her contribution and look forward to the outcome. We are saved.

[StewieG]

Just watched Siobhan O'Donoghue on VB's show. Not very impressive. Fairly poor in fact in terms of really defining the scope and vision of the COF event, or fleshing out any examples whatsoever of what the alternative vision might include.



Well at least she tried to explain her 'vision' on tv , to the people . Which is more than our taoiseach has done .
People like Siobhan are real people , you will have to forgive her for that .
Unlike 99% of politicians , she dosent seem to have a rehearsed 'spiel' .

[Griska]

Let's all get together and have a good old think - is that it?

[LeftAtTheCross]

Well at least she tried to explain her 'vision' on tv , to the people . Which is more than our taoiseach has done .
People like Siobhan are real people , you will have to forgive her for that .
Unlike 99% of politicians , she dosent seem to have a rehearsed 'spiel' .

Stewie,

I agree that people like Siobhan are "real" in the sense that you mean it, no question there, and the lack of PR polish is not what I was commenting upon. It's just that one might expect her to have some content prepared, after all VB was providing a sympathetic public platform from which she could air her views.

It's rare enough that anyone outside the orthodoxy gets a chance to speak on the public airwaves, so it seems like a wasted opportunity not to have something worthwhile to say when the chance does come along.

Now in fairness to her, and to the whole Claiming Our Future group, I do accept that there's some validity in their line "that we don't claim to have all the answers". I think that's a valid position to hold. It's only the spoofers and shisters in the mainstream political parties and the vested interests in the economic hierarchy who maintain the charade that everything is under control, that they know what they're doing, that everything will be fine. It is a more honest position to say listen, this isn't working, we need to take a step back and look at alternatives.

Ok, so understand that I'm not attacking Siobhan in that regard.

However, and it's a big however, it is important to present at least a partial vision of a possible alternative when critiquing the existing situation, not all the answers, but at least some of the possible options. Otherwise, as Griska says above, it really sounds like all you're offering is a good old think. Which is not enough.

[Design for Life]

Just name of group tells a lot
Claiming our future - it means that group represent people with "entitled" mentality, who think that everybody owes them and they doesn't wont to build, work, create anything - only claim, claim, claim

Much like the business lobby groups who refuse to invest unless there's a tax break and relaxed laws at the end of it? Imagine that! I might refuse to go to work unless I get a tax break...

With regards to your "entitlement" quip I didn't realise the constitution had been nullified and our "entitlement" to be part of the Irish nation had been revoked as well as all the other stuff about economy being subservient to the common good.

A sovereign republic is people coming together and deciding their own fate and destiny with a view of equality. Or do you not like democracy?


Perhaps on point of order this thread should be re named just 'new group' rather than new political group?

That would be a good idea.


Of course it's a political group. Partaking in elections is not the only thing that political groups do.


Yes I agree. Not Party Political, but political.


Well if they are political then I think you'd have to concede that business unions like IBEC or groups like Chambers Ireland are political as they've been trying to force the hand of govt. on a plethora of issues for ages.

[C. Flower]

The big event in the RDS, sold out, is on today - live streaming and blog run by Malachy Browne of Politico.ie here

- http://bit.ly/99KsRq

Our "Choices"

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/?page_id=2

[Andrew49]

Well at least she tried to explain her 'vision' on tv , to the people . Which is more than our taoiseach has done .
People like Siobhan are real people , you will have to forgive her for that .
Unlike 99% of politicians , she dosent seem to have a rehearsed 'spiel' .

Very good points - she didn't/doesn't seem to be politically 'schooled'.

I'm away to Dublin shortly myself - meeting my daughter before she and her husband and young family head off to Albuquerque on Wednesday to a new life.

'Nuff said

[C. Flower]

Very good points - she didn't/doesn't seem to be politically 'schooled'.

I'm away to Dublin shortly myself - meeting my daughter before she and her husband and young family head off to Albuquerque on Wednesday to a new life.

'Nuff said

I hope everything goes very well for them, and you'll have plenty of good visits.

Very tough. It's happened in my family too. Thank god for skype though its not the same at all as being there.

[ang]

"Claiming our future" Live from the RDS:-

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/

[C. Flower]

I had planned to go to this event, but there was thick fog here until after 9.00 a.m.

The event, and the live streaming has started - http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/

"A cross section of civil society wants a better thriving, equal and sustainable Ireland"

They include Trade Unions, and community development and environment "pillars"... This is the language of official local development sector put in place by Government.

Labour Party members seem to be quite prominent.

It's a four session participatory process - Mike Allen, a member here is a "Consensor" - hopefully he will give us some feedback - and I think some other PW members are there too.

[C. Flower]

Some hitches with the computerised voting from tables, which seems to be based on jolitics software??

Mary Coughlan is now going to provide a musical interlude. Good woman Mary.

[Spectabilis]

Some hitches with the computerised voting from tables, which seems to be based on jolitics software??



Maman Poulet, who is blogging live from the RDS, has stated that the technology has nothing to do with jolitics software.

[C. Flower]

Maman Poulet, who is blogging live from the RDS, has stated that the technology has nothing to do with jolitics software.

Thanks. That's interesting. I had the impression from Malachy Browne that it was, but must have misunderstood. I expect he will explain.

I'm just listening again now. Its a mammoth task given 1000 people being there.

DId you make it yourself ?

[Spectabilis]

The results of the session on Values from Maman Poulet:
Top Five Values - Equality, Environmental Sustainability, Accountability, Participation and Solidarity and followed by Justice and Human Dignity.

[C. Flower]

There were some remarks too about people having added in "honesty" I just heard.

[Spectabilis]

DId you make it yourself ?

Alas, I had to cancel my registration because of a medical alarm -which proved groundless happily. Good to be able to use the technology to have a sense of participation, however. I would like to have heard a round table discussion though.

[Spectabilis]

From Maman Poulet at the RDS, a summary of the outcome of the last session:
The Top 2 Priorities in Economy and Environment were
Change the current development model and define and measure
progress in a balanced way that stresses economic security and social
and environmental sustainability.
· Prioritise a legally binding national sustainable development strategy that
caps resource use, reduces greenhouse gas emissions and implements
measures to protect our life support systems.



Income, Wealth and Work Results - Top 2
1 Achieve greater income equality and reduce poverty through wage, tax
and income policies that support maximum and minimum income
thresholds.

2 Prioritise high levels of decent employment with a stimulus package to
maximize job creation in a green/social economy.

They are voting now on Access to services, Public sector renewal and Governance

[Sidewinder]

Let's all get together and have a good old think - is that it?

It's all very Ted, Ted.

You know an enterprise is doomed when one of the very first items on the agenda is a debate about "values" :rolleyes:

I can't shake the image of a thousand Deefer middle management types all cluelessly sitting in a large room all going "oh yaaah, absoluutely roysh".

[Sam Lord]

2 Prioritise high levels of decent employment with a stimulus package to
maximize job creation in a green/social economy.



Nooooooooooo!!

Not the dreaded stimulus package again. I can't take it anymore.....:(

[Spectabilis]

The stream was down for the last session on Action. Summary available on www.claimingourfuture.ie. I will be interested in the follow up.

[Design for Life]

You know an enterprise is doomed when one of the very first items on the agenda is a debate about "values" :rolleyes:

Well not everyone wants to be a society of sociopaths....


It was a good event, I was very impressed by the setup and organisation. There's inevitably going to be sniping from the cynics opposed to democracy.

There was quite a lot of diversity at the table I was at: an 80yr old former farmer, former Waterford Crystal worker, former Eircom/Telecom Eireann worker, 20-something yr old with a degree in a bottom-rung laboratory job looking at emigration and a special needs teacher.

[C. Flower]

Well not everyone wants to be a society of sociopaths....


It was a good event, I was very impressed by the setup and organisation. There's inevitably going to be sniping from the cynics opposed to democracy.

There was quite a lot of diversity at the table I was at: an 80yr old former farmer, former Waterford Crystal worker, former Eircom/Telecom Eireann worker, 20-something yr old with a degree in a bottom-rung laboratory job looking at emigration and a special needs teacher.

Very interesting group - and if typical, encouraging that all these types of people want to get involved. Were they politically minded people ?

What was the chat, and where is this going to lead next ?

[jmcc]

Well not everyone wants to be a society of sociopaths....Yeah it must be so much easier to be a society of parasites living off the hard work of others. That's the problem I see with these Quangoites, ex-Quangoites and other assorted happy-clappy fools who thinks that the world owes them a living. What's missing are the thinkers, the doers, the entrepreneurs, the workers. These are the people too busy working, generating revenue and taxes so that these happy clappies can be paid off by the government. And the unions - the same people who were paid off by FF during the Celtic Tiger and basically betrayed their members for seats on quangos and semi-states boards? Those at the top all still have their big salaries and their cushy little directorships while their members are losing their jobs every day.


It was a good event, I was very impressed by the setup and organisation.Then it is exactly the kind of thing that you and others like you would like.


There's inevitably going to be sniping from the cynics opposed to democracy.What democracy? It looks like just another government approved astroturf operation like Farmleigh, The Ideas Campaign, Your Country Your Call.


There was quite a lot of diversity at the table I was at: an 80yr old former farmer, former Waterford Crystal worker, former Eircom/Telecom Eireann worker, 20-something yr old with a degree in a bottom-rung laboratory job looking at emigration and a special needs teacher.With all due respect, screw "diversity". Democracy is about a unity of purpose and opinion. Most of all it is about getting things done. That's how you change things.

Regards...jmcc

[jmcc]

It's all very Ted, Ted.

You know an enterprise is doomed when one of the very first items on the agenda is a debate about "values" :rolleyes:

I can't shake the image of a thousand Deefer middle management types all cluelessly sitting in a large room all going "oh yaaah, absoluutely roysh".Remember that scene from Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy trilogy? The one with the Golgafrinchans having a marketing meeting to decide how to market the wheel and which colour and shape it should be? :)

Regards...jmcc

[C. Flower]

Yeah it must be so much easier to be a society of parasites living off the hard work of others. That's the problem I see with these Quangoites, ex-Quangoites and other assorted happy-clappy fools who thinks that the world owes them a living. What's missing are the thinkers, the doers, the entrepreneurs, the workers. These are the people too busy working, generating revenue and taxes so that these happy clappies can be paid off by the government. And the unions - the same people who were paid off by FF during the Celtic Tiger and basically betrayed their members for seats on quangos and semi-states? Those at the top all still have their big salaries and their cushy little directorships while their members are losing their jobs every day.

Then it is exactly the kind of thing that you and others like you would like.

What democracy? It looks like just another government approved astroturf operation like Farmleigh, The Ideas Campaign, Your Country Your Call.

With all due respect, screw "diversity". Democracy is about a unity of purpose and opinion. Most of all it is about getting things done. That's how you change things.

Regards...jmcc

I think there may well have been a good number of people who went to this event who do want to get something done. There have been very few constructive outlets for such people.

But I entirely agree with you about the overall character of the event and the type of bodies involved. What ICTU needs to be doing now, for example, is not leading a mass "civic" movement but addressing its own responsibilities to its membership - which it is not doing - and getting an investigation completed into the outlandish and unaccountable junketry that prevails under Partnership.

In my own personal work I've enabled thousands of people to use mass participation for decision-making, in Ireland and elsewhere. This forum is of course in a loose form a type of very informal participatory shared learning. I think that it is possible with very careful design for this kind of event to generate a lot of action.
My impression of today's event from watching the morning's session is that it seems to have minimised working time and to have structured things so that only the most generalised and amorphous outcomes were possible.

Tomorrow I'll have time for a closer look at what's come out of it.

[jmcc]

I think there may well have been a good number of people who went to this event who do want to get something done. There have been very few constructive outlets for such people.Remember the old Jesuit strategy for dealing with conspiracies? Start a conspiracy, have people join it and then control them. It looks like the usual Quangoites, ex-Quangoites and Unions are being used to effectively control dissent. Naturally this is a very cynical view borne out of watching astroturf operations like Farmleigh, The Ideas Campaign, Your Country Your Call.


My impression of today's event from watching the morning's session is that it seems to have minimised working time and to have structured things so that only the most generalised and amorphous outcomes were possible. It looks like a classic happy-clappy operation. Generalised aspirations that make people feel good but don't actually change anything.

Regards...jmcc

[C. Flower]

Remember the old Jesuit strategy for dealing with conspiracies? Start a conspiracy, have people join it and then control them. It looks like the usual Quangoites, ex-Quangoites and Unions are being used to effectively control dissent. Naturally this is a very cynical view borne out of watching astroturf operations like Farmleigh, The Ideas Campaign, Your Country Your Call.

It looks like a classic happy-clappy operation. Generalised aspirations that make people feel good but don't actually change anything.

Regards...jmcc

I think we see eye to eye on this event :cool::cool:

But from my point of view, with any luck they will clump together the "blockers" all in one place ;) They can't be everywhere at once.

While they were working today in Dublin, 20,000 people marched in Navan against hospital cuts.

[Design for Life]

Were they politically minded people ?



Political party wise no but I got a sense of personal politics. Everyone at the table had some kind of gripe with how the current state of the state. Proposals and ideas were all very moderate and focused on medium term achievable goals - nothing about gulags, "People's Cars", ladas or big bushy beards and hats.

There was plenty of talk about how jobs could be created and foreign direct investment used for sustainable purposes not just to create a slutty tax haven.

I expected much backlash on the forums and the facebooks or whatever but it's comforting that they're so far off the mark considering how the discussions went on. 6 strangers sitting at a table talking about serious issues in a progressive way must surely be a new achievement for our society.

There wasn't really much of a pretext other than to try and counter the narrative that we're been given - cuts in expenditure so that we can go back to our ultra-low tax unsustainable model that well, in reality wasn't even a model to begin with! There were no speeches made other than to explain the format and then give the results of the choices.



I don't know what jmcc's problem is. With internet forums you've to take a grain of salt with each post and opinion. Personally I really don't think this medium is particularly well suited at times to certain types of discussion. At one point he's accussing this event of being a quangofest or something and then in the same breath aims his sights at the Farmleigh Economic Forum or whatever they called it.

Either he's a disillusioned cynic who is wary of anyone and everyone that assembles to have a meeting or ?.... It's hard to find sincerity through forums. This Claim Our Future thing couldn't have been more different to those other events he mentioned.

Ironically it's this type of anti-intellectualism that today's event I think tried to tackle.

[C. Flower]

Political party wise no but I got a sense of personal politics. Everyone at the table had some kind of gripe with how the current state of the state. Proposals and ideas were all very moderate and focused on medium term achievable goals - nothing about gulags, "People's Cars", ladas or big bushy beards and hats.

There was plenty of talk about how jobs could be created and foreign direct investment used for sustainable purposes not just to create a slutty tax haven.

I expected much backlash on the forums and the facebooks or whatever but it's comforting that they're so far off the mark considering how the discussions went on. 6 strangers sitting at a table talking about serious issues in a progressive way must surely be a new achievement for our society.

There wasn't really much of a pretext other than to try and counter the narrative that we're been given - cuts in expenditure so that we can go back to our ultra-low tax unsustainable model that well, in reality wasn't even a model to begin with! There were no speeches made other than to explain the format and then give the results of the choices.



I don't know what jmcc's problem is. With internet forums you've to take a grain of salt with each post and opinion. Personally I really don't think this medium is particularly well suited at times to certain types of discussion. At one point he's accussing this event of being a quangofest or something and then in the same breath aims his sights at the Farmleigh Economic Forum or whatever they called it.

Either he's a disillusioned cynic who is wary of anyone and everyone that assembles to have a meeting or ?.... It's hard to find sincerity through forums. This Claim Our Future thing couldn't have been more different to those other events he mentioned.

Ironically it's this type of anti-intellectualism that today's event I think tried to tackle.


What is going to happen next ?

[youngdan]

From Maman Poulet at the RDS, a summary of the outcome of the last session:
The Top 2 Priorities in Economy and Environment were
Change the current development model and define and measure
progress in a balanced way that stresses economic security and social
and environmental sustainability.
· Prioritise a legally binding national sustainable development strategy that
caps resource use, reduces greenhouse gas emissions and implements
measures to protect our life support systems.



Income, Wealth and Work Results - Top 2
1 Achieve greater income equality and reduce poverty through wage, tax
and income policies that support maximum and minimum income
thresholds.

2 Prioritise high levels of decent employment with a stimulus package to
maximize job creation in a green/social economy.

They are voting now on Access to services, Public sector renewal and Governance

What percentage of people are this far gone with the fairies.

I would bet that not one of them every produced a job in their lives

[Design for Life]

While they were working today in Dublin, 20,000 people marched in Navan against hospital cuts.

...and that's good. There was for suggestions of protests though quite tentatively since anyone who protests is a pinko lefty ye know how it is!

On a serious note many people at the table expressed how they had been out protesting a lot in the last year to 18 months and found it frustrating (myself included).

One policy suggestion that was voted number 1 with regards to public services was on healthcare: "Provide universal access to quality healthcare, childcare and services for older people."

It really wasn't as narrow as you might think.

[C. Flower]

...and that's good. There was for suggestions of protests though quite tentatively since anyone who protests is a pinko lefty ye know how it is!

On a serious note many people at the table expressed how they had been out protesting a lot in the last year to 18 months and found it frustrating (myself included).

One policy suggestion that was voted number 1 with regards to public services was on healthcare: "Provide universal access to quality healthcare, childcare and services for older people."

It really wasn't as narrow as you might think.

I would have been there if it wasn't for the bloody fog. I had a press ticket waiting for me. I know that a lot of people want to get stuck in at a deeper level than protest. However, given the enormity of what's going on and the urgency, I'm personally not seeing eye to eye with ICTU, for example.

Was it the protests themselves that you found frustrating, or the lack of any plan for what to do next ?

Was there any proposal for how to reach that health care objective ?

[Design for Life]

What is going to happen next ?


I got the sense that today's event was very much getting some basics down and having a large group of people reach some kind of consensus. There'll be more local meetings like there had been in the lead up to the event. As far as I know there's a steering committee that are going to look at the results and see where to take it from there. There were hundreds of suggestions for "where next?".



What percentage of people are this far gone with the fairies.

I would bet that not one of them every produced a job in their lives

Only people who "produce" jobs get a vote do they? How on earth does one "produce" a job anyway. What an apocryphal statement.

Are you away in your factory Dan at night producing little wooden jobs ? Is that what keeps you ticking?



Edit: There was a youtube page put up with some videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/claimingourfuture#p/u

[jmcc]

Political party wise no but I got a sense of personal politics. Everyone at the table had some kind of gripe with how the current state of the state. Proposals and ideas were all very moderate and focused on medium term achievable goals - nothing about gulags, "People's Cars", ladas or big bushy beards and hats.Well it wouldn't be a good thing to have those communist elements what with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union. Now such stuff is couched in the terms of Political Correctness where people can emote about the suffering of others without having to do anything to stop it.


There was plenty of talk about how jobs could be created and foreign direct investment used for sustainable purposes not just to create a slutty tax haven. What you and others who attended don't seem to realise is that talk is cheap. Creating jobs and businesses takes hard work and time.


I expected much backlash on the forums and the facebooks or whatever but it's comforting that they're so far off the mark considering how the discussions went on.Ah the confidence of the true believer - they are all against us because we are right/different/etc.


6 strangers sitting at a table talking about serious issues in a progressive way must surely be a new achievement for our society.Sounds like your average pub conversation to me.


I don't know what jmcc's problem is.To quote from a famous movie, I've seen things that you people wouldn't believe.


Personally I really don't think this medium is particularly well suited at times to certain types of discussion.Actually it is well suited to it because people can think and discuss rather than having to produce an off the cuff response.


At one point he's accussing this event of being a quangofest or something and then in the same breath aims his sights at the Farmleigh Economic Forum or whatever they called it.I guess the whole concept of astroturf events is lost on you.


Either he's a disillusioned cynic who is wary of anyone and everyone that assembles to have a meeting or ?.... It's hard to find sincerity through forums. This Claim Our Future thing couldn't have been more different to those other events he mentioned.Cynical? Yes. But I have no illusions as to how politics works and people can be controlled with the right phrase or idea.


Ironically it's this type of anti-intellectualism that today's event I think tried to tackle.I really like when people start using phrases like "anti-intellectualism" to make themselves seem smarter than they really are. The whole idea of "anti-intellectualism" is quite comical because people use it as a crutch to support their own lack of intellect. It is far easier to dismiss people with whom you disagree as being "anti-intellectual" than to actually engage in argument.

Now I can be diplomatic, in a politically correct manner, and hope for the triumph of your banality where everyone is equal even if they are diverse and all salaries are limited (except, of course, those of the parasites at the top who are really working for the common good and deserve all those executive directorships and quango jobs). Or I can be blunt and describe people who use such terms as "anti-intellectualism" as fools without any original thoughts. All the great advances in human civilisation, those great thoughts and ideas, those great developments and inventions - they are not born out of people wanting to be equal or diverse. They are born out of a need to think, create and to take risks. They require a bit more than a bunch of happy-clappies chatting. They require people to do things. You see people who use terms like "anti-intellectualism" just don't understand the nature of the creative and inventive mind. We create and invent because that is who and what we are. I was going to quote a line from the lyrics of a song by The Jam that seems apt. But it would be wasted.

Regards...jmcc

[jmcc]

What percentage of people are this far gone with the fairies.Careful now Youngdan,
You'll be dismissed as an "anti-intellectual" too. :)


I would bet that not one of them every produced a job in their livesYes but they are very good at being equal. The difference between the quangoite and the entrepreneur is that the entrepreneur will try to make a difference whereas the quangoite will just claim everyone's differences should be respected.

Regards...jmcc

[youngdan]

Only people who "produce" jobs get a vote do they? How on earth does one "produce" a job anyway. What an apocryphal statement.

Are you away in your factory Dan at night producing little wooden jobs ? Is that what keeps you ticking?





I surely produced more jobs and definately paid more tax than most here.

Now I do neither as I am all set.

So I am one less for the parasites to feed on.

An excellent idea would be to curb the vote.

Why should a clueless student who never paid a penny into the system have the same say as a person that pays 50000 euros a year tax.

That is why the country is going down the shoot

[C. Flower]

Careful now Youngdan,
You'll be dismissed as an "anti-intellectual" too. :)

Yes but they are very good at being equal. The difference between the quangoite and the entrepreneur is that the entrepreneur will try to make a difference whereas the quangoite will just claim everyone's differences should be respected.

Regards...jmcc

I'm under the impression that a certain degree (or even an excess) of entrepreneurial spirit, married in with quangodom, is exactly what has done for this country.

Or, when you say entrepreneur, do you mean something more than a businessperson who invests, taking a risk ?

[youngdan]

Maybe he mean Michael Dell who ye ran out of the country

[C. Flower]

Maybe he mean Michael Dell who ye ran out of the country

I most certainly did not. Did you?

[jmcc]

I'm under the impression that a certain degree (or even an excess) of entrepreneurial spirit, married in with quangodom, is exactly what has done for this country.It is quangodom and clientism that has caused problems. It is very difficult to be an entrepreneur in Ireland because of the concept that a business is there to just create jobs. In the IT field, most of the new businesses are based on highly automated processes that are not labour intensive. But they do create jobs.


Or, when you say entrepreneur, do you mean something more than a businessperson who invests, taking a risk ?Much more - someone who goes out, takes the risk with their own time and money where there is no guarantee of success. Property speculators and bankers are not entrepreneurs.

Regards...jmcc

[Sam Lord]

Why should a clueless student who never paid a penny into the system have the same say as a person that pays 50000 euros a year tax.


Why have a vote at all? They could just put you in charge ....:)

Then we could all buy gold and live happily ever after.

[youngdan]

Well I am surely living happilly ever after anyway:):):):):):)

[jmcc]

Why have a vote at all? They could just put you in charge ....:)A scary thought for you: Could Youngdan have done worse than the ship of FFools currently in power? :)


Then we could all buy gold and live happily ever after.Seems like a better deal than shoebox apartments in Dublin.

Regards...jmcc

[C. Flower]

It is quangodom and clientism that has caused problems. It is very difficult to be an entrepreneur in Ireland because of the concept that a business is there to just create jobs. In the IT field, most of the new businesses are based on highly automated processes that are not labour intensive. But they do create jobs.

Much more - someone who goes out, takes the risk with their own time and money where there is no guarantee of success. Property speculators and bankers are not entrepreneurs.

Regards...jmcc


Has it got harder to make profit in IT? It was after the dot com bubble burst that the really crazy money went into property. In part, it was FDI wages (and the knock on to wages generally) that helped drive property prices up in Ireland. The quangos were a peculiar kind of mock capitalism, where the risk was kept by the public but the management were paid as though they were successful entrepreneurs - an politicians got various benefits from the arrangement. Electricity production would be a prime example. Government was skimming from it the whole time, even though they were being told that prices were driving the likes of Dell out.

But by your definition developers are entrepreneurs, surely ? - they certainly took risks and many of them are bankrupt. Finance is a different kettle of fish I agree.

Entrepreneurs have their own problems.

[Ah Well]

Well I am surely living happilly ever after anyway:):):):):)

Would it be oversteppin the mark to construe that as a Gloat Dan? ;)

[jmcc]

Has it got harder to make profit in IT? It has become harder to identify and exploit niche markets. The danger with such a small market as Ireland is that it is so small. When you go beyond the simple service level (one man and his van) it becomes a go big or get out market. I see it every day with the Irish hosting market. There's hundreds of new web developers starting out each month. Some of them think that they will be the next Blacknight, Register365 or Digiweb. But what they don't see is the thousand or so web developers and web hosters between them and those larger players.


It was after the dot com bubble burst that the really crazy money went into property.And most of it, unlike the dotBomb money, was borrowed.


In part, it was FDI wages (and the knock on to wages generally) that helped drive property prices up in Ireland.True. But the relaxation of credit terms had a lot to do with it as well.


The quangos were a peculiar kind of mock capitalism, where the risk was kept by the public but the management were paid as though they were successful entrepreneurs - an politicians got various benefits from the arrangement. Electricity production would be a prime example. Government was skimming from it the whole time, even though they were being told that prices were driving the likes of Dell out.The electricty prices used to be among the cheapest in Europe. But I think one of the cretins in FF decided to try to introduce "competition" to the market by hamstringing ESB and its ability to reduce prices. ESB isn't so much a quango as a state monopoly that works reasonably well.


But by your definition developers are entrepreneurs, surely ? - they certainly took risks and many of them are bankrupt.To an extent, some perhaps were. But real entrepreneurs don't get state bailouts.


Entrepreneurs have their own problems.It is amazing that any are still around. I remember a few years ago at a meeting with some of the EI entrepreneur platform people (an EI course that aimed to turn people (long term employees and academics) into entrepreneurs) thinking that some of them didn't have what it would take to survive in business.

Regards...jmcc

[C. Flower]

From twitter


Ruthkennedy1: Mixed feelings about COF today. Glad I went tho. Heard David Begg fled the room on being challenged re his salary (allegedly) #cof3010

[youngdan]

A scary thought for you: Could Youngdan have done worse than the ship of FFools currently in power? :)

Seems like a better deal than shoebox apartments in Dublin.

Regards...jmcc

If I ran the country it would be sitting with a cash hoard of 60 billion by now.

[youngdan]

Would it be oversteppin the mark to construe that as a Gloat Dan? ;)

Well I have done OK I suppose. But could I be that much smarter than the average person. Who knows

[Sam Lord]

A scary thought for you: Could Youngdan have done worse than the ship of FFools currently in power? :)

Seems like a better deal than shoebox apartments in Dublin.

Regards...jmcc

If you are happy to live without social security, a public health or education system ... and so forth. It would quickly loose any features of what people describe as a society. The gates on the gated communities could never be tall or strong enough .....

[C. Flower]

Would like to continue, but my eyes are closing. Must remember to do something with the clock tonight....

[Ah Well]

Would like to continue, but my eyes are closing. Must remember to do something with the clock tonight....

The Forum clock needs to be readjusted ... showing 1 hour ahead for posts as is now

;)

or does that all sort out with the hour change

:confused:

[jmcc]

From twitterI think that there may be hope yet if it causes such people to run away. :)

Regards...jmcc

[Ah Well]

I think that there may be hope yet if it causes such people to run away. :)

Regards...jmcc

Perhaps ..... plenty folk have run off/avoided with regard to the matter of financial gain/recompense and still we are none the better of/will be none the better of for it

[jmcc]

If you are happy to live without social security,So making a system that is meant to help people into one that permanently incapacitates them is good?


a public healthWith the damage that Harney has done to the Irish health service?


or education systemCreating a working educational system is essential. I'd concentrate on real education rather than on pseudo-science and happy clappy courses though


It would quickly loose any features of what people describe as a society.The veneer of civilisation is a thin one.

Regards...jmcc

[C. Flower]

I think that there may be hope yet if it causes such people to run away. :)

Regards...jmcc

I hope that anyone trying to astroturf in Ireland at the moment may find they have bitten off a bit more than they can chew.

[youngdan]

If you are happy to live without social security, a public health or education system ........

I am very happy without all 3.

The Paddies are going to be very angry without all 3

[Ah Well]

I hope that anyone trying to astroturf in Ireland at the moment may find they have bitten off a bit more than they can chew.

I find it inherently wrong that you may have self employed Irish people paying tax for years (and that includes tax in advance on top of that aka preliminary tax) and they are not entitled to "dole" for want of a better word -and yet you have folk coming in from outside whether EU or non, depending, getting bailed out

Something radically wrong there, where those paying into the system for a long time have to go to the HSE Community Welfare Office for a digout (which is entirely discretionary unlike the dole which is automatic once qualified for).

It's appalling - end of

And continues to fly under the radar day in day out ..........

[C. Flower]

I find it inherently wrong that you may have self employed Irish people paying tax for years (and that includes tax in advance on top of that aka preliminary tax) and they are not entitled to "dole" for want of a better word -and yet you have folk coming in from outside whether EU or non, depending, getting bailed out

Something radically wrong there, where those paying into the system for a long time have to go to the HSE Community Welfare Office for a digout (which is entirely discretionary unlike the dole which is automatic once qualified for).

It's appalling - end of

And continues to fly under the radar day in day out ..........

It's outrageous. Baron von Biffo denies that this happens

-
http://leothegeek.wordpress.com/2010/10/29/department-of-social-and-family-affairs/

[youngdan]

It's outrageous. Baron von Biffo denies that this happens

-
http://leothegeek.wordpress.com/2010/10/29/department-of-social-and-family-affairs/

The lad I know is getting 2650 euro cash, living in a mansion and is driving a merc.

To Hell with the Africans and the natives, his American wife thinks she has died and gone to Heaven.

YIPPEEEEEEEE :p:p

[Design for Life]

So I am one less for the parasites to feed on.



Where is this narrative going Dan? I'm getting a sense that you feel persecuted, that everyone's out to get you.



Or, when you say entrepreneur, do you mean something more than a businessperson who invests, taking a risk ?


An entrepreneur is most surely more than just some young buck with a slick hair cut flying up the M1 in an MG.




Why should a clueless student who never paid a penny into the system have the same say as a person that pays 50000 euros a year tax.


Are you committed to any notion of democracy?

[Design for Life]

All the great advances in human civilisation, those great thoughts and ideas, those great developments and inventions - they are not born out of people wanting to be equal or diverse.


There were thoughts and ideas discussed at this event, a given I thought you would agree.

Human civilisation have been fantastic up to this point at being creative to meet our needs. It's a shame you couldn't have come to the event because people's needs were pretty much at the forefront.



They are born out of a need to think, create and to take risks. They require a bit more than a bunch of happy-clappies chatting. They require people to do things. You see people who use terms like "anti-intellectualism" just don't understand the nature of the creative and inventive mind. We create and invent because that is who and what we are.


I think it's fair to say that the idea that we have a system of one where those take risks and reap the rewards or indure the losses is one largely of myth. If you need evidence glance at the wonderful banking institutions you and I now own.


As for being creative - noone at the event was talking about somehow impinging on people's creativity.



I was going to quote a line from the lyrics of a song by The Jam that seems apt. But it would be wasted.


No I don't think it'd have been wasted but I was never much of a fan of The Jam. Mod era Who-lite really though Eton Rifles is great fun.

[youngdan]

Are you committed to any notion of democracy?

It is working very well in Ireland. Ye will be starving soon

[jmcc]

There were thoughts and ideas discussed at this event, a given I thought you would agree. A bunch of people who use phrases like "anti-intellectuals"? Who speak of equality and diversity and values? Ha! If they ever had an original thought the shock would kill them.


Human civilisation have been fantastic up to this point at being creative to meet our needs. What do you mean by "our" needs?


It's a shame you couldn't have come to the event because people's needs were pretty much at the forefront.So now that you've made a mess of things, you want people like me to solve the problems? :) Perhaps (being just an ordinary hardworking genius) I am not enough of an "intellectual" for such company.


I think it's fair to say that the idea that there are people who take risks and reap the rewards or indure the losses is one largely of myth.We exist. The scum in government would rather that we did not but not all of us have given up on this country.


If you need evidence glance at the wonderful banking institutions you and I now own.That's the cult of rewarding failure.


As for being creative - noone at the event was talking about somehow impinging on people's creativity. Another traduced term.


No I don't think it'd have been wasted but I was never much of a fan of The Jam. Mod era Who-lite really though Eton Rifles is great fun.Then I'm sure you'll be familiar with the lyrics of "The Modern World". :)

Regards...jmcc

[C. Flower]

Some "Vox pop" via Cedar Lounge Revolution - gives a flavour of who was there.

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/vox-pop-from-claiming-the-future-event/

[C. Flower]

Discussion on this went on here very late last night. A thousand vocal and interested people got together for a Saturday (their own time I guess in most cases) in looking at where to go next.

The CoF time frame of 3010 seems to me to be excessively long, to say the least.
Does anyone there feel there was a sense of urgency about, say imminent loss of economic sovereignty and the 4 year plan. Were these things discussed at all?


I've stolen these comments from the CLR, who got them somewhere else....



sonofstan

That was a bizarre day.

There was much to cringe at, and I might as well get it out of the way: the music for a start - Mary Coughlan, a folkie doing 'Talkin' bout a Revolution' samba drums, a Gospel choir - it was like being stuck inside the collective head of the Galway Arts Festival in about 1987. And a day that starts with Leonard Cohen and his vacuous chocolate box 'poetry' is a day that doesn't deserve to live in my world...

The format was such that it's not really possible to give a report, since what you experienced very much depended on what table you found yourself at. Tomboktu sets it out above and it followed that - the voting wasn't nearly as exciting as the Eurovision though - Equality romped home in the values category: next years event will presumably be in its beautiful capital city.

From talking to others, I reckon my table was a little odd, in that there were 4 out 6 members of political parties (SWP, Labour, CP and Green)and 4 out of six who self- identified as 'left' and not the more usual 'progressive'. I don't think it would be fair to pick out comments made by individuals in that context, though, so a veil descends...

Where it all got decidedly cheesy was in the revival meeting stuff from the stage - 'aren't we all great entirely to be here' -and the uncritical acceptance that new media by itself was so wonderful, it would probably bring us to the promised land, tweet by tweet.

There is a lot of justice in the notion that it's the LP at prayer, but still, getting 1,000 people into a room to talk about politics is not something many parties could do, and if it were an LP/ ICTU event, it certainly wouldn't have gotten the numbers.....

As to CL's question - I don't think anyone has a clue, and the notion that policy can be somehow done without politics was embarrassingly present in a lot of the stuff I heard.

I'd really like to hear what anyone else who was there thought, though.

Tomboktu:

I was relieved when almost everybody at my table complained about the wording of the options in session 2A:

2a Economy and environment

Change the current development model and define and measure progress in a balanced way that stresses economic security and social and environmental sustainability.
Ensure that natural resources are developed sustainably and benefit the common good over private profit.
Drive a strong indigenous economy through links with appropriate Foreign Direct Investment, state-owned enterprises and investing in specific local enterprise strategies.
Regulate banking to change the culture from one of speculative banking to one where currently state-owned banks and new local banking models focus on guaranteeing credit to local enterprises and communities.
Prioritise a legally binding national sustainable development strategy that caps resource use, reduces greenhouse gas emissions and implements measures to protect our life support systems.
My table-mates asked: What did the organisers mean by "current development model"? What is "appropriate" foreign direct investment. They also said the phrasing tried to pack a number of different ideas into a single option, and the language used was not good for communicating with people who didn't spend their time analysing policy.

As we went through the sessions, our table got more awkward, giving more time to proposing different points and different wordings for existing points than we were giving time to ranking the suggestions that CoF had offered. At about the third round of voting, two members objected to voting for the ideas at all.

We pointed out that combating and preventing corruption was missing from the set of priorities. One person complained about the one proposal among the set of twenty that looked out to the wider world (in session 3a):

Ensure Ireland’s global role, foreign and economic policies and international relations advances the rights of impoverished and exploited people in the countries of the global south.
It was described as 'patronising' that Ireland's role in the World is seen solely as focusing on the rights of people in the global south. It also needs to deal with the impact of the EU, the WTO, the IMF, etc. on people in Ireland and the "developed world".

The biggest problem with the structure channeled discussion in to a task that, in my opinion, was "safe" for CoF: ranking the sets of suggestions they had produced. Now, in fairness, there was the chance to add suggestions, but the software and the time available for each the sessions meant that was very squeezed (and literally in the case of the text boxes on their web interface).

For me, the test about the day as a whole will be what happens with the suggestions that were made from the floor (both new points outside the pre-set agenda and proposals to change the wording of points), and whether the CoF people make any real effort to take on board those views. That will be much more difficult than the task today was, as it will need developing a system for longer, considered debate and a decision-making mechanism that allows details and alternatives in the specifics of proposals to be considered and selected from. (For example, on the "Your Ideas" pages of the Claiming Our Future website, I count four different suggestions specifically about low income, and a few others on caps or other restraints at the top of the income and wealth ranges. The differ in details, and there would need to be a piece of work done on developing a coherent proposal or set of linked proposals.) It will have been little more than a cynical exercise if all that comes out of it is that the CoF people now claim they have a mandate for what their ideas and deal only with those.

I was also heartened to discover I was not alone in the criticism of the exclusive use of the Internet (and an email account) to enable people to register and participate.

(I am also confused how the votes were collated. There were 100 tables, and each ranked four sets of five proposals. For session 2a, the total number of votes comes out at 1394. For the other sessions, the total votes were: 1403, 1329 and 1394 (again).)

[Sam Lord]

So making a system that is meant to help people into one that permanently incapacitates them is good?

With the damage that Harney has done to the Irish health service?

Creating a working educational system is essential. I'd concentrate on real education rather than on pseudo-science and happy clappy courses though

The veneer of civilisation is a thin one.

Regards...jmcc

I wasn't actually endorsing the current systems ... but it has to be said that they are better than none at all. You seemed to thing that Dan had something to offer but this is not correct. All you will get out of him is buy gold, thick paddies, ye all will starve, I'm so rich and ye are all so stupid, and a hodge podge of conspiracy theories ... plus a great deal of nastier stuff lurking below the surface which he works at covering up.

I have encountered donuts with a greater intellectual capacity. But some people have time for his drivel ... to my surprise.

[Sidewinder]

I'm wholeheartedly with jmcc on this one. All the coverage of the event, and the apologias for it by Design For Life and others, are merely re-inforcing the extremely pungent whiff of middle-management parasitism; right-on effette middle-class hand-wringing and emoting; loads of fluffy and shiny "demands" and positions that don't actually amount to anything once you peel off the shiny....the usual mindless moronic suit/marketdroid/bureaucrat bolloxology that strangles every real creative enterprise in Ireland with their mind-numbing herd-like conformity, endless buzzword/fad fetishes, and complete inability to think things through logically.

I say what we really need is a coup led by engineering/IT/science people. It's well past time to forcibly wrest all power from these useless Golgafrinchans in our midst and put the whole lot of them out to pasture.

If we have to have an underclass, then these are the people who deserve to be in it - they are feck all use to anyone, despite their wildly over-inflated notions of their own brilliance and competence.

[Sam Lord]

I'm wholeheartedly with jmcc on this one. All the coverage of the event, and the apologias for it by Design For Life and others, are merely re-inforcing the extremely pungent whiff of middle-management parasitism; right-on effette middle-class hand-wringing and emoting; loads of fluffy and shiny "demands" and positions that don't actually amount to anything once you peel off the shiny....the usual mindless moronic suit/marketdroid/bureaucrat bolloxology that strangles every real creative enterprise in Ireland with their mind-numbing herd-like conformity, endless buzzword/fad fetishes, and complete inability to think things through logically.

I say what we really need is a coup led by engineering/IT/science people. It's well past time to forcibly wrest all power from these useless Golgafrinchans in our midst and put the whole lot of them out to pasture.

If we have to have an underclass, then these are the people who deserve to be in it - they are feck all use to anyone, despite their wildly over-inflated notions of their own brilliance and competence.

I would not argue too much with your overall characterisation of the event. At the same time if you think that "entrepreneurs" will solve the problems in Ireland or any other country you are equally incorrect. The "market' has had it's day.

[youngdan]

I wasn't actually endorsing the current systems ... but it has to be said that they are better than none at all. You seemed to thing that Dan had something to offer but this is not correct. All you will get out of him is buy gold, thick paddies, ye all will starve, I'm so rich and ye are all so stupid, and a hodge podge of conspiracy theories ... plus a great deal of nastier stuff lurking below the surface which he works at covering up.

I have encountered donuts with a greater intellectual capacity. But some people have time for his drivel ... to my surprise.


You sound like a sore loser Sam.

I am going out for a nice long drive in my monstermobile so that people won't freeze to death this winter from global warming

[Sam Lord]

You sound like a sore loser Sam.

I am going out for a nice long drive in my monstermobile so that people won't freeze to death this winter from global warming

Not sure what I have lost but your social conscience is admirable even if misguided.

[Sidewinder]

I would not argue too much with your overall characterisation of the event. At the same time if you think that "entrepreneurs" will solve the problems in Ireland or any other country you are equally incorrect. The "market' has had it's day.

But what me and jmcc are saying - and I suspect our background in IT startups is colouring our views a tad - is that very few of the people who the meeja tell us are "entrepreneurs" actually are. Most of them are just connected inside-track mafioso milking a corrupt system for an unfair advantage and inflated profits based on rigged markets and gouging.

And all the politicians and quangocrats are a vital and necessary component in these scams, as are the coke-fuelled baboons in the money markets.

Real entrepreneurs engage in creative destruction, they create something new, they disrupt tired old industries, they take on lazy incumbents with a sense of entitlement in order to provide a better service at an affordable price, and most real entrepreneurs refuse to sell their souls to the parasites they have set out to destroy. A real entrepreneur won't be going crying to quangocrats and politicians to get laws or subsidies created in their favour, and they do their best to not be reliant on the lunatic vampires in the banks or the "markets". People become real entrepreneurs because they don't want to be beholden to a rotten system, don't want one more go on the hamster wheel, don't want to be wage slaves, and don't want to "fit in" with all the machinery of corruption and pork and unearned "profits".

There's very little of that in Ireland, and most people who try to work outside the corrupt system quickly get squashed by the sheer weight of connected mafioso.

"Don't rock the boat, don't be speaking out of turn, keep the head down and play the game by our rules - or else" : that sums up the political, media, governmental and business culture in Ireland. That implicit threat is everywhere, and you don't have to move very far outside your appointed box before you start to feel the heat.

[C. Flower]

But what me and jmcc are saying - and I suspect our background in IT startups is colouring our views a tad - is that very few of the people who the meeja tell us are "entrepreneurs" actually are. Most of them are just connected inside-track mafioso milking a corrupt system for an unfair advantage and inflated profits based on rigged markets and gouging.

And all the politicians and quangocrats are a vital and necessary component in these scams, as are the coke-fuelled baboons in the money markets.

Real entrepreneurs engage in creative destruction, they create something new, they disrupt tired old industries, they take on lazy incumbents with a sense of entitlement in order to provide a better service at an affordable price, and most real entrepreneurs refuse to sell their souls to the parasites they have set out to destroy. A real entrepreneur won't be going crying to quangocrats and politicians to get laws or subsidies created in their favour, and they do their best to not be reliant on the lunatic vampires in the banks or the "markets". People become real entrepreneurs because they don't want to be beholden to a rotten system, don't want one more go on the hamster wheel, don't want to be wage slaves, and don't want to "fit in" with all the machinery of corruption and pork and unearned "profits".

There's very little of that in Ireland, and most people who try to work outside the corrupt system quickly get squashed by the sheer weight of connected mafioso.

"Don't rock the boat, don't be speaking out of turn, keep the head down and play the game by our rules - or else" : that sums up the political, media, governmental and business culture in Ireland. That implicit threat is everywhere, and you don't have to move very far outside your appointed box before you start to feel the heat.

The idea of a "pure" capitalism in enticing to a lot of people, but no such thing exists. Finance and power are wrapped up with each other and scams and golden circles are part and parcel of it, always have been and always will. It has the police and army to back it up, ultimately and they are not concerned about corruption, only about preserving the class status quo and defending private property.

I left the CoF type of environmen to work independently ten years ago. I was able to avoid the worst idiocies, but at the end of the day, if I am going to eat, I have to do work for the private or public sector - there isn't anyone else after all.

Capitalism really is lurching along through a succession of crises of overproduction. This type of environment is toxic for small or medium entrepreneurs - the "create destruction" is mainly the bigger firms with deeper pockets cutting wages and destroying the competition. Creativity and innovation will need other outlets. ;)

[LeftAtTheCross]

Back from a weekend in Dublin, posting here my comment on the CoF event which I originally put up on Cedar Lounge:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/some-feedback-from-creating-our-future/#comment-81445


Quick input from myself.

It was quite hard work. The level of politicisation I felt was quite low. Lots of motherhood and apple pie stuff. Hard questions weren’t addressed at all. There was an option to submit notes on “elephants in the room” which had been missed in the discussion which was maybe intended to open a channel for people to feedback on what they thought was substantially missing. We’ll see if anything comes out in the wash from that for the next steps.

The discussions were channeled or guided pretty much by the relatively narrow focus of the groups behond the event, which was a positive in that it was well orchestrated and prevented people from venting and waffling all over the place, but it did very much limit the scope towards arriving at a predestined conclusion. The option to submit alternative points from each table was there, but inevitably didn’t then rank in the aggregated results as they were leftfield to the choreographed stuff.

The motivation and engagement of participants was a positive, but it seemed to be weighted towards community, voluntary and charity sectors, inevitably perhaps. There was an eco-focused guy at my own table who was more politicised than the representatives of those other groups. One would wonder how much appetite there really is for transformative change arising from this constituency, whether all they really want is to put partnership back on the political agenda and leave it at that thanks.

Of course the hard work only begins now, to attempt to engage with a wider constituency rather than those already converted with their narrow sectoral vested interests, and to focus effort on building towards something, although the method of doing so and the actual end goals of which are still very much indeterminate.

We’ll see. I’d give it 5 out of 10. Much done, more to do, as they say.

One further comment which is that the positive engagement of people with the subject matter was a major outcome for me from the day, the debate was real and informative. Useful as the internet is for facilitating debate and discussion on a distributed and continuous basis, which are real and huge benefits of that form of communication, nonetheless it really is quite inspriring to engage with real people on a face to face basis.

[Spectabilis]

Thanks for this post LatC. Very rational and yet engaged. I would love to have beeen there. I assume the dynamics at each table very much determined the feel of the day. I look forward to the follow-up.

[youngdan]

Did anyone have any ideas of generating some wealth or was it all about taking it from someone else

[LeftAtTheCross]

Did anyone have any ideas of generating some wealth or was it all about taking it from someone else

They did, yeah, but I'm ********d if I'm going to bother elaborating in it for your benefit as the level of your usual input to discussions here doesn't inspire me to go to those lengths on a sunday night.

Get off your keyboard and go get involved yourself in something worthwhile for a change.

That's the end of my Mr. Grupmy impression. Goodnight.

[C. Flower]

Back from a weekend in Dublin, posting here my comment on the CoF event which I originally put up on Cedar Lounge:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/some-feedback-from-creating-our-future/#comment-81445

One further comment which is that the positive engagement of people with the subject matter was a major outcome for me from the day, the debate was real and informative. Useful as the internet is for facilitating debate and discussion on a distributed and continuous basis, which are real and huge benefits of that form of communication, nonetheless it really is quite inspriring to engage with real people on a face to face basis.

Yes, getting real is very different and necessary :) It's good hearing the different reports. People will quickly learn or relearn how to organise and I think we'll see a multiplicity of new organisations.

[youngdan]

They did, yeah, but I'm ********d if I'm going to bother elaborating in it for your benefit as the level of your usual input to discussions here doesn't inspire me to go to those lengths on a sunday night.

Get off your keyboard and go get involved yourself in something worthwhile for a change.

That's the end of my Mr. Grupmy impression. Goodnight.

Go out and howl at the moon then because maybe the readers would like to know if these yahoos had any worthwhile ideas

[Mick Tully]

Go out and howl at the moon then because maybe the readers would like to know if these yahoos had any worthwhile ideas

There's no full moon tonight, you must have been howling at the clouds you don't get the same reaction. :D:D:D

[youngdan]

You are not the brightest Nick so I will break it to you gently.

The moon is still there, it is just behind the clouds, it has not dissappeared:D:D:D:D

[Mick Tully]

You are not the brightest Nick so I will break it to you gently.

The moon is still there, it is just behind the clouds, it has not dissappeared:D:D:D:D

Where does that leave you. :D

[youngdan]

Don't worry about me Nick. I am set for life.

[Sam Lord]

Did anyone have any ideas of generating some wealth or was it all about taking it from someone else

Yea. Buy gold .... and if you really want to create even more wealth then buy silver too. :)

[Sam Lord]

Don't worry about me Nick. I am set for life.

Who cares ...

[youngdan]

Just me and Nick it seems.

But Nick can rest easy as I am making even more money today as silver breaks above 25 bucks. My stocks are up over 300% and this is only warming up.

It is great to be me

[tea drinker]

Go out and howl at the moon then because maybe the readers would like to know if these yahoos had any worthwhile ideas


Just me and Nick it seems.

But Nick can rest easy as I am making even more money today as silver breaks above 25 bucks. My stocks are up over 300% and this is only warming up.

It is great to be me

kind of difficult to reconcile these "inputs"
In other news, I have a huuuuge schlong - I am set for life :p
Invest in it, it just keeps going up, and it really gives something back to the community unlike the gold and silver bubbles!

This political group have shades of a Cumann about it, not what I want. Maybe it will mature, but they need to be more aggressive and assertive. But, OTOH maye they want to teanbuild a little before the divisive agenda setting... any effort is to be applauded tbh

[C. Flower]

kind of difficult to reconcile these "inputs"
In other news, I have a huuuuge schlong - I am set for life :p
Invest in it, it just keeps going up, and it really gives something back to the community unlike the gold and silver bubbles!

This political group have shades of a Cumann about it, not what I want. Maybe it will mature, but they need to be more aggressive and assertive. But, OTOH maye they want to teanbuild a little before the divisive agenda setting... any effort is to be applauded tbh

It will take on a political character soon enough and I don't think it will be particularly left wing.

The event was quite an achievement in involving such a large number in discussion, but it seems that the individual experience in the main was with 6 other people - I guess there was feed back on the votes, too, but the streaming went down.

Events can be designed in a lot more fluid away so that people can identify things they want to get active on and make contacts, for example.

RTE radio 1 is discussing this now - Values and Priorities were agreed on.

Equality and sustainability agenda - the gap between rich and poor should be narrowed - did I hear "maximum and well as minimum" wages mentioned ?

Social media important - but all bookings were online, so it was perhaps a self selecting group.

"Put pressure on the system to change and work on this kind of agenda" This doesn't mean a whole lot, and given the ICTU involvement and its recent actions in stifling anti government oppositions could be a recipe for corralling political energy and evaporating it into round table chat.

Why not just say "join the Labour Party" as that seems to be the political match, more or less? Or join your Trade Union.

The event does at least show that its possible for a lot of people to get together and do more than listen to set speeches from the top table.

This group needs to decide what it is. Is it aiming at forming a political party ?

Will it oppose the budget, if the budget is contrary to its Values and Priorities?

What I do like is the numbers of people who are wanting to get stuck into face to face political and social discussion and organisation - the numbers are likely to become much higher yet.

[youngdan]

kind of difficult to reconcile these "inputs"
In other news, I have a huuuuge schlong - I am set for life :p
Invest in it, it just keeps going up, and it really gives something back to the community unlike the gold and silver bubbles!

This political group have shades of a Cumann about it, not what I want. Maybe it will mature, but they need to be more aggressive and assertive. But, OTOH maye they want to teanbuild a little before the divisive agenda setting... any effort is to be applauded tbh

That is good news Tea Drinker.

Good to know there is another poster who is happy.

Too much negativity here

[Design for Life]

Back from a weekend in Dublin, posting here my comment on the CoF event which I originally put up on Cedar Lounge:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/some-feedback-from-creating-our-future/#comment-81445


The level of politicisation I felt was quite low

One further comment which is that the positive engagement of people with the subject matter was a major outcome for me from the day, the debate was real and informative. Useful as the internet is for facilitating debate and discussion on a distributed and continuous basis, which are real and huge benefits of that form of communication, nonetheless it really is quite inspriring to engage with real people on a face to face basis.


The people I spoke to where fairly well clued in to current affairs and politics in general and they were able to link their own experiences and lives to the general drive of our society and economy over the years.



Discussion on this went on here very late last night. A thousand vocal and interested people got together for a Saturday (their own time I guess in most cases) in looking at where to go next.

The CoF time frame of 3010 seems to me to be excessively long, to say the least.
Does anyone there feel there was a sense of urgency about, say imminent loss of economic sovereignty and the 4 year plan. Were these things discussed at all?


I've stolen these comments from the CLR, who got them somewhere else....



From talking to others, I reckon my table was a little odd, in that there were 4 out 6 members of political parties (SWP, Labour, CP and Green)



There weren't any members of political parties at my table that I knew of. There was agreements on healthcare provided to people on the basis of their need for it and of equal access to education as well as bigger stuff about living in a society rather than cogs in an economy. Some might describe this as left-wing.

Ireland's political scene is utterly bizarre in that some think Eamon Gilmore is Trotsky incarnate and launch slurs with no basis in truth or reality. There's not really been a left wing here and any left like Labour has been kinda described as the salt & pepper you'd throw in to a loaf of bread - not really a huge impact on the overall outcome but just there for the sake of it. Language really has lost its meaning in this regard.

[Design for Life]

I wasn't actually endorsing the current systems ... but it has to be said that they are better than none at all. You seemed to thing that Dan had something to offer but this is not correct. All you will get out of him is buy gold, thick paddies, ye all will starve, I'm so rich and ye are all so stupid, and a hodge podge of conspiracy theories ... plus a great deal of nastier stuff lurking below the surface which he works at covering up.

I have encountered donuts with a greater intellectual capacity. But some people have time for his drivel ... to my surprise.

Don't mention the "I" word, some people don't like.


bolloxology that strangles every real creative enterprise in Ireland with their mind-numbing herd-like conformity, endless buzzword/fad fetishes, and complete inability to think things through logically.


There is plenty fad-fetishes in the mainstream now. Knowledge economy anyone?


I would not argue too much with your overall characterisation of the event. At the same time if you think that "entrepreneurs" will solve the problems in Ireland or any other country you are equally incorrect. The "market' has had it's day.

Well entrepreneurs are more than just businessmen. There is entrepreneurship in other aspects of society, community development projects and so on. Just because something does't turn a profit doesn't mean there isn't creativity or progress.



There's very little of that in Ireland, and most people who try to work outside the corrupt system quickly get squashed by the sheer weight of connected mafioso.

"Don't rock the boat, don't be speaking out of turn, keep the head down and play the game by our rules - or else" : that sums up the political, media, governmental and business culture in Ireland. That implicit threat is everywhere, and you don't have to move very far outside your appointed box before you start to feel the heat.

Did you see the Irish Times interview with Niall Fitzgerald (chief of Unilever) a few months ago where he said he left Ireland because he was uncomfortable with the culture of business getting heavily intertwined with politics. He said that unless he could engage with politics and agree to do things that would "compromise (his) own principles" then he couldn't develop his career further.

I didn't speak to anyone how wants to keep the corrupt system. While many my not be too up to scratch on particular details about who bought about whom (though who is?) we all know with a wink and a nod that there's a corrupt culture there.

The purpose of this event was to get people together to talk about an alternative to the current narrative. Pretty much the main three parties are on the same level of agreement optics aside. They think that cutting taxes and spending like they did in the 80s will somehow recreate the genuine boom of the 90s which is of course mad. There are people in a fairyland that Fianna Fail (or anyone else) had an economic plan that led to the celtic tiger - it was a variety of events that came together at the right moment.



Capitalism really is lurching along through a succession of crises of overproduction. This type of environment is toxic for small or medium entrepreneurs - the "create destruction" is mainly the bigger firms with deeper pockets cutting wages and destroying the competition. Creativity and innovation will need other outlets. ;)

This type of opinion was one that was at my table with concerns raised about smaller businesses being eaten up by larger corporations that come here mainly for the tax haven element.

Some posters have a radically different view of this event versus my own experience. There was plenty of discussion about jobs, business and development.

"Prioritise high levels of decent employment with a stimulus package to
maximize job creation in a green/social economy."

"Utilise the ‘pension reserve fund’ to invest in capital works programmes of social infrastructure and in private and social enterprise small business start ups."

"Drive a strong indigenous economy through links with appropriate Foreign Direct Investment, state-owned enterprises and investing in specific local enterprise strategies."

I'd have thought the above would have some relevance to you IT people. Surely it's a given that if we don't make some kind of serious investment in education then creativity and entrepreneurship will stall to a point of arrested development?

Wasn't there a games company havoc or something that left Ireland because they couldn't quality of workers they needed?




It will take on a political character soon enough and I don't think it will be particularly left wing.


IBEC and Chambers Ireland take a political character but noone talks about them as a political group. They constantly argue for changes in policy, for tax concessions, for changes in law to favour them.



Social media important - but all bookings were online, so it was perhaps a self selecting group.


A couple came up from Tipperary at the off chance they could get in - and they did. There was a cancellation list.

I'm skeptical about the social media thing but the technology on the day I thought was fairly impressive.





What I do like is the numbers of people who are wanting to get stuck into face to face political and social discussion and organisation - the numbers are likely to become much higher yet.


I've been posting about general political stuff here and there on websites and I don't get any sense of value or meaning. You come across trolls and hacks and it's hard to get any sincerity and sitting around a table facing real people you can't hide behind crude comments and quips. Democracy should have some sort of involvement and I think this is certainly a decent start.

[Spectabilis]

I'm trying to think of how many new startups there have been this year of new political groups or parties. Amhrán Nua, for example. Do we have a list here on PW? It would be really interesting to tabulate them in terms of policy, support/origins. numbers and then see how the claiming our future movement stacks up.

Open though I am to the idea of a new political grouping, only the CoF initiative as a mobilization of civil society caught my imagination.

[C. Flower]

I'm trying to think of how many new startups there have been this year of new political groups or parties. Amhrán Nua, for example. Do we have a list here on PW? It would be really interesting to tabulate them in terms of policy, support/origins. numbers and then see how the claiming our future movement stacks up.

Open though I am to the idea of a new political grouping, only the CoF initiative as a mobilization of civil society caught my imagination.

Check these out -

http://www.politicalworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=50

There are some individuals here, like apjp, who have a stated aim of starting a new group or party.

For the record, it would be worth logging them (individuals, groups and parties) in a thread.

[jmcc]

There is plenty fad-fetishes in the mainstream now. Knowledge economy anyone?Well guess what - We Are The Knowledge Economy (a few of us here anyway). And many of us regard the people who use such phrases with withering disdain.


Well entrepreneurs are more than just businessmen. There is entrepreneurship in other aspects of society, community development projects and so on. Just because something does't turn a profit doesn't mean there isn't creativity or progress.Ah the "Social Entrepreneurs". They are not entrepreneurs. They are just happy clappies trying to steal the mantle of true entrepreneurship in the same way they screwed up education with their ideas of "equality" instead of emphasising actual learning and thinking.


I didn't speak to anyone how wants to keep the corrupt system. You probably didn't speak to many people at all because the idea of limiting people to six to a table effectively prevented any mass communications or wider discussions. The happy clappies at the top could then get on with their little agenda without having to worry about the ordinary true believers asking tricky questions.


I'd have thought the above would have some relevance to you IT people.We are too busy doing things and trying to survive to bother with such happy clappy rubbish. It is easier to waffle about such green gombeenery when some company or the state pays your salary but when you run your own business, you don't have time for such rubbish.


Surely it's a given that if we don't make some kind of serious investment in education then creativity and entrepreneurship will stall to a point of arrested development? What you people don't seem to understand is that entrepreneurship is a way of life. It can't be taught. You are either an entrepreneur or you are not. It is that simple because most people cannot handle the stresses and uncertainty of being an entrepreneur. And as for investing in startups - you probably don't realise that startups have a high attrition rate. Many of these investments would only be temporary jobs and lost investments.


Wasn't there a games company havoc or something that left Ireland because they couldn't quality of workers they needed?Havok needed high quality maths and physics graduates rather than happy clappies with useless pseudo degrees. Unfortunately in the effort to provide a degree for everyone in the audience the Irish educational system moved away from quality towards quantity.

Regards...jmcc

[LeftAtTheCross]

I've been posting about general political stuff here and there on websites and I don't get any sense of value or meaning. You come across trolls and hacks and it's hard to get any sincerity and sitting around a table facing real people you can't hide behind crude comments and quips. Democracy should have some sort of involvement and I think this is certainly a decent start.

Design for Life,

Totally agree with what you're saying there.

The virtual world of the internet is no substitute for engagement in teh rreal world, whether that's debate or protest or doing the hard work of reaching out to the broad mass of people out there.

Whatever criticisms I or others make about the CoF event, it's a start, it's a positive, and it is to be welcomed for that.

[Sam Lord]

There is entrepreneurship in other aspects of society, community development projects and so on. Just because something does't turn a profit doesn't mean there isn't creativity or progress.


This is partly true. I have seen many people be very creative in securing permanent well paid cushy positions for themselves in "community development projects". Their particular area of expertise would be in creatively filling out funding applications that secure their wages. What is untrue is that this has ever produced any progress. It is in the interests of these people to maintain a status quo which is an impediment to progess because it fills their rice bowl.

[Design for Life]

I'm trying to think of how many new startups there have been this year of new political groups or parties. Amhrán Nua, for example. Do we have a list here on PW? It would be really interesting to tabulate them in terms of policy, support/origins. numbers and then see how the claiming our future movement stacks up.

Open though I am to the idea of a new political grouping, only the CoF initiative as a mobilization of civil society caught my imagination.


Yeah a common theme in crisis like ours is a fragmentation of the left and indeed the right in some respects - the PDs in the 80s for instance broke out of FF of course.

There has been a few new minor parties that have sprung up and some people do seem to want new parties - at least this is the impression I get from the Irish Times letters page where every other week someone is either calling for or starting up a new party.

As you say, Claiming our Future's strength is in that it isn't a political parties as political parties fail. With regards to women's rights - and indeed voting rights for people who didn't own property! - and the lesbian/gay communities they gained some measures of progress without needing parties and elections.

[Design for Life]

Fergus Finlay article from today's Examiner:


There’s one group of citizens who are determined to find a better way

By Fergus Finlay

Tuesday, November 02, 2010

OUR future may be slipping away from us.

.....


AS I understand it, the movement doesn’t want to be a political one. In that case, it is going to have to develop a campaign that can shape and influence the agenda of politics.

I’m guessing that what the Claiming our Future movement is saying is that it’s not enough to change the Government – we have to change the values that inform the new government. It’s not enough to demand a new economic direction – we have to set out clear priorities for that direction.

....

The thing that motivated them all was that they cared enough about the future of their country to get stuck in, and you can see the results of their discussions on www.claimingourfuture.ie. It’s a website worth watching, by the way. Pretty soon, 1,000 could become 10,000, then maybe 100,000. When that happens, a new movement of citizens could really be shaping the future.



This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Tuesday, November 02, 2010


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/fergus-finlay/theres-one-group-of-citizens-who-are-determined-to-find-a-better-way-135146.html#ixzz14ARUxRHL


Note his assertions that Claiming our Future is not a political party or mere protest.

[jmcc]

Fergus Finlay article from today's Examiner:Your future - his claim? All hail President Fungus!

Regards...jmcc

[LeftAtTheCross]

Yeah a common theme in crisis like ours is a fragmentation of the left and indeed the right in some respects - the PDs in the 80s for instance broke out of FF of course.

There has been a few new minor parties that have sprung up and some people do seem to want new parties - at least this is the impression I get from the Irish Times letters page where every other week someone is either calling for or starting up a new party.

As you say, Claiming our Future's strength is in that it isn't a political parties as political parties fail. With regards to women's rights - and indeed voting rights for people who didn't own property! - and the lesbian/gay communities they gained some measures of progress without needing parties and elections.

Design For Life,

People call for "newness" without analysing what it is in the old parties and political system that are at the root of the problems. Newness fades with time, parties get bogged down in the same old *****, nothing changes.

I'm absolutely not saying that the political system should be discounted as one avenue for progressing the CoF agenda, but is should not be a dominant aspect of it in my opinion.

The CoF event highlighted in part that the struggle needs to move out of the narrow space of traditional politics. Your point about gains on the feminist and LGBT agenda having been won outside of the channels of representative democracy is a good one and illustrates some of the possibilities for change that should be considered.

I do feel it would be a mistake to move CoF too quickly into the political realm, it would be a lost opportunity to build something which is outside the current limits, to really broaden the public space for these discussions. The looming general election is both an opportunity and a curse, as it raises the prospect of doing some-thing but not the right-thing, and that then acquiring a life of its own which then relegates the broader and bigger picture into a minor aspect of the discussion. In effect it would be what the existing political system would welcome most, a capitulation to playing their game by their set of rules. Inevitably they will win that game and nothing will change.

I'm a member of a political party myself and although the CoF agenda and the perspective of my party do not completely overlap by any means, I do see a possibility for these different models and strands working together to change our society and economy. None of us has the complete solution, we all need to work together, closely or loosely, to make the long-term transformation a possibility.

[Design for Life]

Your future - his claim? All hail President Fungus!

Regards...jmcc

Character assassinations are unfortunately an ugly facet of such discussions as these in Ireland.


"I've got nothing to say if my personality is put on trial" - Camus.


Design For Life,

People call for "newness" without analysing what it is in the old parties and political system that are at the root of the problems. Newness fades with time, parties get bogged down in the same old *****, nothing changes.



There was a kind of collective agreement at this to not just spend the whole day analysis what's wrong. The goal was to try and agree on some things that could be changed. That said though there was pretty lively debate and discussion about "state of the nation" kinda stuff and how the crisis got to this point at the table I was at. We were able to avoid soap-boxing and overbearing opinionated people swamping the whole thing.

So in short, at the table I was at there was agreement that govt. were culpable for the problems not teachers, patients, nurses, welfare recipients, immigrants etc. Ye know, the traditional narrative we're getting in media really.

[jmcc]

Character assassinations are unfortunately an ugly facet of such discussions as these in Ireland.

"I've got nothing to say if my personality is put on trial" - Camus.Much easier to thow around quotations to make it look like you are smart than address the issues. Or was I being "anti-intellectual" again? Well Camus and myself have something in common - how's that for "anti-intellectualism"?


So in short, at the table I was at there was agreement that govt. were culpable for the problems not teachers, patients, nurses, welfare recipients, immigrants etc. Ye know, the traditional narrative we're getting in media really.And wasn't there a bunch of trained "facilitators" to direct discussions? You don't really expect us to believe that this is anything other than another astroturf campaign? The aim will probably be to get Fungus Finlay a place in the presidential elections if Michael D. Higgins gets the Labour nomination.

Regards...jmcc

[LeftAtTheCross]

There was a kind of collective agreement at this to not just spend the whole day analysis what's wrong. The goal was to try and agree on some things that could be changed.

And I think that was one of the positive aspects of the discussion being guided by a prepared agenda, it removed the venting and waffling that might outherwise have distracted from reaching some level of agreement on teh core stuff.

My point about analysing the underlying problems wasn't specifically about the Oct 30 event itself, which as I say I agree with you that the focus was and should be forwards looking. What I'm saying is that when it comes to the difficult work, of figuring out what to aim for and how to get there, that it's vital not to get excited about the possibilities of the existing political system, because a new player in an old system simply gets bogged down in the minutae of that system. Certainly we can't ignore the existing power structures, we should engage with it to some extent, but we have to consider other forms of engagement which will deepen democracy. We can't envisage a different future and then procede towards it using only established historical methods.


That said though there was pretty lively debate and discussion about "state of the nation" kinda stuff and how the crisis got to this point at the table I was at. We were able to avoid soap-boxing and overbearing opinionated people swamping the whole thing.

Agreed. Again one of the benefits of guiding / managing the event, and managing the attendence via quotas from different sectors, it was well run.


So in short, at the table I was at there was agreement that govt. were culpable for the problems not teachers, patients, nurses, welfare recipients, immigrants etc. Ye know, the traditional narrative we're getting in media really.

And one of the biggest the task at hand is to get that narrative out into society at large and to counter the propaganda that's beamed at us everyday by the media.

[Design for Life]

I think people just need some kind of outlet or a forum to vent. It's not good enough just saying "well go to the market, start a business, see what you can make for yrself". It is a fair generalisation to say that what many in this country want and would expect is a sense of security as well as healthcare and education provided equally.

Talk like "well how many jobs will this produce" is not good enough.

I was just at a public forum discussion tonight and so many people were dying to be heard and release their anger and frustrations. The market driven ideologies combined with Ireland's ol' wink & a nudge corrupt culture has shattered so many people's belief systems perhaps beyond repair. Democracy requires some sort of active participatory element from the citizens.

As for politicisation; in terms of how individuals and their families have been affected by recession and each of the 4 crises and opinions that have grown out of circumstance I think there's more political awareness. In terms of individual parties, personalities and policies, yeah it's the same old and many aren't too excited about getting tied up in that.

[ThomasB]

It is a fair generalisation to say that what many in this country want and would expect is a sense of security as well as healthcare and education provided equally.
Nothing wrong with that !!



Democracy requires some sort of active participatory element from the citizens.

Was at the event on Saturday, EXCELLENT well run and a step in the right direction.

It is only when WE move from the position of SELF INTEREST...... and START WORKING TOGETHER will we get a better more SUSTAINABLE IRELAND

Appeared to have a strong bias to left and union, wonder why there wasn't more from centre and right

[Ah Well]

Appeared to have a strong bias to left and union

In that case, that's what it will be perceived in the main to actually be ....

[ThomasB]

In that case, that's what it will be perceived in the main to actually be ....

Probably :(

I just wish people in Ireland would wake up and realise the selfish, selfcentred, selfinterested model hasn't worked and sit down with those they belive to be so wrong and WORK TOGETHER to find a mutually acceptabe solution.

I so sick of trench and camp warfare that achieves little and by it's very nature means one side loses !!! how about a WIN WIN option ?????

[Ah Well]

Probably :(

I just wish people in Ireland would wake up and realise the selfish, selfcentred, selfinterested model hasn't worked and sit down with those they belive to be so wrong and WORK TOGETHER to find a mutually acceptabe solution.

I so sick of trench and camp warfare that achieves little and by it's very nature means one side loses !!! how about a WIN WIN option ?????

Admirable thoughts of course but I would be dubious as to the possibility

Anyhoo unfortunately at this point (Nov 2010) I am very much a Member of the "FF have done for us, it's too late for alternatives and "you know who" are coming to sort us out in any event" Camp .... 2 yrs ago there was a chance, even 1 yr ago ... but now, no, too late ..............

[ThomasB]

Admirable thoughts of course but I would be dubious as to the possibility

Anyhoo unfortunately at this point (Nov 2010) I am very much a Member of the "FF have done for us, it's too late for alternatives and "you know who" are coming to sort us out in any event" Camp .... 2 yrs ago there was a chance, even 1 yr ago ... but now, no, too late ..............

Fortunately, I don't share your pessimism or defeatism, and like the lucozade add, THE game is often won in the last 15 minutes.

Winners NEVER quit and quitters never win !!

PS Considering only about 6% of us are earning anything noteworthy, the 94% won't have much to lose !!

[jmcc]

It is only when WE move from the position of SELF INTEREST...... and START WORKING TOGETHER will we get a better more SUSTAINABLE IRELAND
But what are we sustaining? A culture of what? A bunch of quangoite parasites, paid off union "leaders", and assorted happy clappies who think that the world owes them a living?

The centre and the right were missing because those of the centre and the right are too busy working to survive.

There is one simple question from those of us who work for living to these happy clappies: Why should we save you and your lifestyle?

Regards...jmcc

[Design for Life]

Nothing wrong with that !!
Was at the event on Saturday, EXCELLENT well run and a step in the right direction.

It is only when WE move from the position of SELF INTEREST...... and START WORKING TOGETHER will we get a better more SUSTAINABLE IRELAND

Appeared to have a strong bias to left and union, wonder why there wasn't more from centre and right

It wasn't an IBEC conference!

The issues addressed at the event aren't particularly right-wing issues. I think it's fair to say that many people are fed up of centrist politics - both on the left and right.


In the current edition of Village Constantin Gurdiev outlines his agenda for change, a "rightist" agenda for a change and a kinda manifesto by the looks of its development on his blog. It's fairly devoid of the populist stuff of promising the sun the moon and the stars while not funding the state adequately to pay for such astrological luxuries.




Admirable thoughts of course but I would be dubious as to the possibility

Anyhoo unfortunately at this point (Nov 2010) I am very much a Member of the "FF have done for us, it's too late for alternatives and "you know who" are coming to sort us out in any event" Camp .... 2 yrs ago there was a chance, even 1 yr ago ... but now, no, too late ..............

It's not too late for alternatives. The talk of you-know-who coming in has been apart of gaining support from public opinion by using fear mongering - together with other indicators of medial manipulation like appealing to consensus (self-evident; avoid debate by claiming the matter is already settled so to avoid alternatives), scapegoating (blame the overpaid public sector workers at the bottom, unions etc.), semantics (speak in euphemisms like "adjustment" for cuts), strawmen arguments (anyone suggesting taxing people with money is a commie Stalinist gulag war criminal).

The alternatives are there but there's essentially a media blackout. Community platform, Organisation for the Unemployed, Social Justice Ireland, TASC, Sinn Fein have all made proposals to abolish tax reliefs and look at aiming the tax net at the larger concentrations of wealth but it's not being considered at all in the main. You would at least assume that just before the last vestige of integrity this country might have held on to (sovereignty) was handed over to a foreign power that maybe just maybe perhaps ALL options would be looked at.

[LeftAtTheCross]

The alternatives are there but there's essentially a media blackout. Community platform, Organisation for the Unemployed, Social Justice Ireland, TASC, Sinn Fein have all made proposals to abolish tax reliefs and look at aiming the tax net at the larger concentrations of wealth but it's not being considered at all in the main. You would at least assume that just before the last vestige of integrity this country might have held on to (sovereignty) was handed over to a foreign power that maybe just maybe perhaps ALL options would be looked at.

It's absolutely true that the mainstream media have swallowed the government agenda, "we are where we are", "there is no alternative", hook line and sinker.

Apart from the IT columns by Fintan O'Toole and Vincent Browne you'd be hard pressed to see anyone voice an alternative.

Browne's Tonight (http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=tonightwithvincentbrowne) programme in TV3 is the only piece of sane by broadcasting out there.

In print magazines there's Village (http://www.villagemagazine.ie/)and LookLeft (http://www.lookleftonline.org/) which from different perspectives challenge the orthodox narrative.

On-line there is plenty of commentary which (you've noted above) which is questioning the orthodoxy, whether that's TASC (http://www.tascnet.ie/), Michael Taft (http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/), Social Justice (http://www.socialjustice.ie/), Irish Left Review (http://www.irishleftreview.org/) or the many many individual blogs. People just need to go looking.

On the media blackout, interesting to see last night's RTE Primetime had a piece where Sean Healy of Social Justice and Jim Power of Freinds First set out two alternative budget strategies even within the limitations of the 6billion cut. Good to see these two different flavours being debated at least, broadcasting that actually there are always alternatives. It's a good start by RTE, hopefully they'll continue by providing airtime to other commentators who will question "the parameters" even more deeply and open up the discussion even further on the narrative of "the 4 year plan to cut 15billion euro" and "the bond markets".

[Design for Life]

Fintan O'Toole and Vincent Browne? Pfft sure aren't they Nazis or something!


I didn't see the Prime Time but token gestures towards equal reporting are kinda useless if you're going to air schlock expose shows demonising everyone on welfare as a fraud the week of the welfare budget cuts.

Jim Power is an obnoxious person and is ideas and suggestions usually are not far removed from his personality - it's impossible to take anyone seriously who was cheering along the bubble boom. Someone like Constantin Gurdiev would've been a much better choice to make the case for a "rightist" approach.

Just look at the lead stories that are reported: IBEC the other day had a conference and Brian Lenihan went along to be told what they want done - lower/tax the min wage, don't increase taxes at the higher end and so on. Cowen was at an ISME thing today. These get lots of attention while budget proposals from the likes of Sean Healy or even TASC are minor stuff that no one goes along to.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1104/1224282634188.html



The wealthy have the ear of government, but the disadvantaged have virtually no voice, writes NIALL CROWLEY

YOU DON’T get to see many bondholders throwing eggs at the Minister for Finance. You rarely have bankers, establishment economists or holders of wealth taking to the streets. You don’t get angry calls from property developers to the media chat lines.

You do get students taking to the streets. You get older people, the unemployed, the low paid.

Access to power and influence is unequal. This has to be the starting point for any debate about the legitimacy of protest. The bondholders, the bankers, the establishment economists and the holders of wealth have the ear of government. The disadvantaged have virtually no voice in our democracy.

[ThomasB]

But what are we sustaining? A culture of what? A bunch of quangoite parasites, paid off union "leaders", and assorted happy clappies who think that the world owes them a living?

The centre and the right were missing because those of the centre and the right are too busy working to survive.

There is one simple question from those of us who work for living to these happy clappies: Why should we save you and your lifestyle?

Regards...jmcc

Rather broad general statement, and scurrying around on the rat race wheel, avoiding reality will hardly lead to survival


It wasn't an IBEC conference!

The issues addressed at the event aren't particularly right-wing issues. I think it's fair to say that many people are fed up of centrist politics - both on the left and right.


In the current edition of Village Constantin Gurdiev outlines his agenda for change, a "rightist" agenda for a change and a kinda manifesto by the looks of its development on his blog. It's fairly devoid of the populist stuff of promising the sun the moon and the stars while not funding the state adequately to pay for such astrological luxuries.

Clearly not IBEC :)

Why are people fed up of it, and when did we have centrist politics, all I see is self-cetered politics - both on Left and Right !!!

Are you supportive of CG's ageanda ? and why do you call it a "rightist" agenda

Good to see these two different flavours being debated at least, broadcasting that actually there are always alternatives. It's a good start by RTE, hopefully they'll continue by providing airtime to other commentators
Don't hold your breath

[Design for Life]

Why are people fed up of it, and when did we have centrist politics, all I see is self-cetered politics - both on Left and Right !!!

Are you supportive of CG's ageanda ? and why do you call it a "rightist" agenda


Self-centered politics is a very good analysis! I'll have to steal that one :p
We don't really have a "left" though. Labour are well to the right of what you might call "left" in terms of what they've delvered in governments and their policies - we'll just have to see how they react to FG's health policy if they're in a coalition.

I don't support Gurdiev's agenda but at least he stands up and says "yeah, I'm right wing and here's what I believe and why". I called it "rightist" because that's what he called it in the article he wrote for Village Magazine.

[Spectabilis]

Check these out -

http://www.politicalworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=50

There are some individuals here, like apjp, who have a stated aim of starting a new group or party.

For the record, it would be worth logging them (individuals, groups and parties) in a thread.

I have started noting political groups/movements/parties as I come across them that are not already in our forum.

A rough and ready list - please improve as you wish. Many are very new. I doubt if there have been many periods when so many new organisations started. They range from right to left, from open and national to secret and local.

http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/ United Left Alliance
Independents (sic) Movement of Ireland http://www.facebook.com/pages/Independents-Movement-of-Ireland-IMI/135007919886238
RIRA
CIRA
Fianna Éireann
Fiann Éireann/Real Sinn Féin
Republican SinnFéin
Oglaigh ne hÉireann
http://www.2nd-republic.ie/site/

[Apjp]

were I in a position to change things tomorrow, I would ask you all would you be willing to take several measures to ensure sovereignty and protection of those who need it most whilst retaining some competetive and comparative trade advantages such as a new devalued currency, a 14% corporation tax that would see more revenue and be accompanied with a higher minimum wage, and a deal to back all of this up which would put the interests of domestic suppliers in tandem with the FDI's. Such and ideal would be like a private sector croke park deal. There are several proposals that a new govt will be able to implement after the evntual radicalisation of politics after the default which is now inevitable. We say we cannot afford 343bn euro of national debt, take back our gas stocks which were unrightfully sold, renegotiate our fisheries rights to get back 51% of our own waters, and incorporate the navy into this industry using our state of the art equipment and a new fisheries dept. We boot out the IMF, and then immediately, within two budgets close the hole in our finances. My first proposal would be the ending of 1.5 bn of pension reliefs. and keep 1 billion for lower earning public and private sector.

Next, we would raise upto 400-500mn from the 1.5% rise in corpo tax which would then be frozen with said deal for five years pending renegotiation upon an additional national crisis. Seanad would be abolished-saving 30 mn. Td's wages cut heavily. no politician in dail eireann earning above 65k. president's wage cut to 100k. ending of all unvouched expenses, and all travel expenses domestically. Any flights would be scheduled bar emergency for crucial govt business, and all with ryanair where possible. no more open ended check book. millions could be made in savings from this, and the reduction of high wages in the public and semi state sectors. Four billion can be raised from streamlined taxation of those earning 80k+-that is a fact. starting with 48 percent tax for 80k-100k and 2% percent levy for all above 100k. A once off referendum on a once off savings tax is an idea of mine which I believe must eb underatken to plug half of the 18.5 bn or so of the national debt for a year, and implement a two-three billion stimulus, with savings levies in a streamlined manner thereafter of 0.5 % for the lower earners and 2% for the higher earners. Streamlined water charges are a possibility, with none for lower middle class or the poor. Streamlined third level fees and a marginal reduction in non-eu fees couldf also generate some much needed revenue.

It is about planning after default, and being prepared to clear half the national debt in each year. The rich would pay the bulk of any bill, without damaging enterprise which is key. the savings tax of 12% on 96 billion would be once-off to help service internal balancing of payments for a year before the process begins again. I know I would be prepared to take a 500 euro grant cut if it meant these policies could be implemented tomorrow to regain sovereignty. There is 500bn worth of gas btw in the corrib. Why are shell allowed to exploit this? And why don't we buy our petrol off venezuela and tax it lower? we'd make huge savings, and it would boost the motor and logistics industries. This is the kind of thinking I want people to support when claiming for our future. personally I believe it is wrong to say we can spare everyone, as we do not know that. what we do know is that austerity need not hit those who cannot afford it in a cruel and unconsidered way. i mean, take the minimum wage reduction, why was there not a 25 cent reduction and a ten cent levy-that would have made little difference to workers and they could have frozen it. Certainly those who have most, should pay most. I mean cutting a minimum wage with no taxation is just stupid, not to mention cruel.

[Spectabilis]

Dear Apjp,

I would love to read your post but would you be so kind as to edit and break it up into paragraphs? Think of the elderly, visually impaired or just plain grumpy! Muchas

[Apjp]

Dear Apjp,

I would love to read your post but would you be so kind as to edit and break it up into paragraphs? Think of the elderly, visually impaired or just plain grumpy! Muchas

Ok. :D I will re-edit

[Spectabilis]

Muita obrigada.:)

[Newsy]

THE CLAIMING Our Future civil society movement, which held its inaugural meeting at the RDS, Dublin in October, is to begin a series of regional meetings in the new year.

The first meeting is likely to be in Galway during February, according to Niall Crowley member and former chief executive of the Equality Authority.

“It’s important now that it goes national and that we continue the work to build popular support for the ideas and deepen the demand for change,” he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1230/1224286489414.html

Their first meeting outside the pale, looks as though it will be in Galway in February.

[C. Flower]

Just talking to someone from Claiming our Future - she is saying that C o F won't be standing GE candidates, as they are not a political party or planning to be one, but that they will be producing "tools to help people question candidates".

Claiming our Future is evolving policies out of what was discussed at the RDS - there's a "results" section on their website.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Is Feidir Linn, one of the groups behind the Claiming Our Future event/movement has published a position paper on the 2011 general election (http://www.scribd.com/doc/47011574/IsFeidirLinnPositionon2011Election).

It's mild enough stuff but that's to be expected.

There's a meeting (http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/2011/01/06/meath-roundtable-event-31st-jan-2011/)of the Meath COF group coming up on 31st Jan.

[smiles]

Whatever happened to Claiming Our Future? I went to their website to find out and found a Strategy 2011-2012, mentioning an event "Changing the Way We Govern Ourselves" due to be held in Dublin in Early 2012 with no further detail, anyone know if it happened or if it is going to happen? The website seems pretty static :( are they more active/inclusive on social media platforms?

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/strategy-2011-2012/

[Spectabilis]

Claiming Our Future Dates for your Diary
Campaigns Group meeting February 11th
Democracy Group next meets February 23rd
Economy for Society Group next meeting March 2nd
Proposed date for national event on 'Political Reform/Democracy' theme May 26th
(Dublin venue to be confirmed)


They are active on Facebook and Twitter and provide a newsletter if you give them your email address.

[smiles]

Claiming Our Future Dates for your Diary
Campaigns Group meeting February 11th
Democracy Group next meets February 23rd
Economy for Society Group next meeting March 2nd
Proposed date for national event on 'Political Reform/Democracy' theme May 26th
(Dublin venue to be confirmed)


They are active on Facebook and Twitter and provide a newsletter if you give them your email address.


Many Thanks.. Will send them my email address and hopefully get caught up :)