Mexico In Grip Of Drug Cartels -State Dept. wants US Troops/Obama backs Executive Privilege for "Fast & Furious" Gun Running

[TotalMayhem]

Where is Danny Trejo when you really need him?


A small-town mayor and an aide were found stoned to death Monday in a drug-plagued western state, the fifth city leader to be slain in Mexico since mid-August.

Michoacan state Attorney General Jesus Montejano said the bodies of Tancitaro Mayor Gustavo Sanchez and city adviser Rafael Equihua were discovered in a pickup truck abandoned on a dirt road near the city of Uruapan.

Montejano's spokesman, Jonathan Arredondo, said initially that the victims were hacked to death with a machete, but the attorney general said they were killed with stones.

Source: Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lt_drug_war_mexico)

[C. Flower]

The state of Mexico is desperate. I'm glad we've got a thread on it finally. Would you maybe broaden the thread title so that it can generally deal with drug-related events there ?

[C. Flower]

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/erin-rosa/2010/10/state-department-backing-us-troops-mexico

Narcosphere News is reporting that there is, with the agreement of the Mexican Government, the US has troops on the ground in Mexico training Mexican Special Forces.
The spectre of the School of the Americas returns.


At the Mexican government's request, the State Department is supporting US military trainings of the Mexican troops inside Mexico, according to federal procurement data and a statement released by the agency.

Procurement data from the Federal Procurement Data System shows that in September the US Embassy in Mexico City paid Sheraton Hotels more than $15,000 for an event featuring the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC, formerly the School of the Americas), a Department of Defense school that specializes in training students from Latin America and has a notorious history of contributing to human rights abuses abroad.

The Joint Special Operations University (JSOU), a military school that teaches special operations tactics, is also listed as being involved. The State Department has not disclosed which Sheraton hotels were used, but the procurement data states the contract work was performed in Mexico. Sheraton lists hotel locations in the historic center of Mexico City, the city's wealthy suburb of Santa Fe, the beach resort city of Cancún, and city of Monterrey.

When asked about the procurement data, embassy spokesman Alexander Featherstone first stated that the US Northern Command (NORTHCOM), a military unit created in 2002 for homeland defense missions, is involved in training the Mexican military with help from the State Department.

“At the request of the Mexican government and in coordination with the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City, USNORTHCOM conducts information exchanges and training across a number of broad areas and disciplines,” Featherstone said. “These trainings take place both in Mexico and the U.S.”


Mexico has been pulled apart by violent drugs related events, with the mast majority of firearms used coming from the US.

My fear would be that this destabilisation creates the condition for practical loss of independence for Mexico.

[Griska]

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/erin-rosa/2010/10/state-department-backing-us-troops-mexico

Narcosphere News is reporting that there is, with the agreement of the Mexican Government, the US has troops on the ground in Mexico training Mexican Special Forces.
The spectre of the School of the Americas returns.



Mexico has been pulled apart by violent drugs related events, with the mast majority of firearms used coming from the US.

My fear would be that this destabilisation creates the condition for practical loss of independence for Mexico.

But woe-betide any poor Mexican who tries to escape accross the border.

[Kodak]

I have been to Mexico and found the Mexicans to be very nice and decent, its just greed and corruption that have brought them to where they are now as it were, its just like here they don't enforce their own laws untill things get out of hand.

[C. Flower]

I have been to Mexico and found the Mexicans to be very nice and decent, its just greed and corruption that have brought them to where they are now as it were, its just like here they don't enforce their own laws untill things get out of hand.

The amount of drugs, arms and militarisation is shocking. I can't help feeling that the US may want to get a leg into Mexico, and this might be the way.

Apart from the information on the US special forces involvement, I have to admit I have no evidence whatsoever to bear that out.

[Griska]

The amount of drugs, arms and militarisation is shocking. I can't help feeling that the US may want to get a leg into Mexico, and this might be the way.

Apart from the information on the US special forces involvement, I have to admit I have no evidence whatsoever to bear that out.

There's been talk for years of a North American Union, comprising the U.S, Mexico and Canada.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14965

[Count Bobulescu]

Doesn’t get much more brazen than this! Note, 35-40K killed in drug war since 2006.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/americas/mexico-says-key-figure-in-cult-like-drug-cartel-captured-in-michoacan/2011/09/20/gIQAf6IEiK_story.html?hpid=z4

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Must be a smell of oil around Guadalajara...

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Nightmare trip from hell some years ago through Mexico from the Guatemalan border right up to Mexico City. Chiapas region was quite interesting and it was around the time of Commandante Marcos- the Government had offered a safe passage to him for talks in Mexico. There were tanks and all sorts of army camped out on the approach to Mexico City.

I was glad I hadn't bought any 'Free Chiapas' or 'Marcos' teeshirts down that way as I was the only gringo for miles around and was searched about five or six times by Federales, Customs and local cops.

Quite interesting going through the Chiapas region itself though at night because we were advised to lie down and the carriage lights were turned off going through certain areas as the Chiapas separatists liked to used the lit up carriages as target practice apparently.

'Twas as bad as the last Luas on a Friday night.

[sinsin]

You are well behind the curve on this one,lads.
I will make a few posts on it,
But I don't want to take over the thread.

The ATF's "Fast and Furious" operation allowed thousands of weapons to be smuggled into Mexico and into the hands of drug cartels.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-mainmenu-26/north-america-mainmenu-36/9064-mexican-officials-furious-over-atf-gunrunning

http://publicintelligence.net/atf-fast-and-furious-top-gun-trafficking-suspects-were-fbi-dea-informants/

[sinsin]

A high-level player with one of the most notorious narco-trafficking organizations in Mexico, the Sinaloa “cartel,” claims that he has been working with the U.S. government for years, according to pleadings filed recently in federal court in Chicago

http://publicintelligence.net/sinaloa-cartel-cocaine-trafficker-claims-he-was-working-for-the-u-s-government/

How a big US bank laundered billions from Mexico's murderous drug gangs...Warren Buffet...Master of the Universe:mad:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs

Drug money saved banks in global crisis, claims UN advisor
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims

[Fermoy]

What group were these masked gunmen were in military uniforms from I wonder , what country ?





Mexico Horror: Gunmen Dump 35 Bodies on Avenue

Suspected drug traffickers dumped 35 bodies at rush hour beneath a busy overpass in the heart of a major Gulf coast city as gunmen pointed weapons at frightened drivers. Mexican authorities said Wednesday they are examining surveillance video for clues to who committed the crime.
Horrified motorists grabbed cell phones and sent Twitter messages warning others to avoid the area near the biggest shopping mall in Boca del Rio, part of the metropolitan area of Veracruz city.
The gruesome gesture marked a sharp escalation in cartel violence in Veracruz state, which sits on an important route for drugs and Central American migrants heading north.
The Zetas drug cartel has been battling other gangs for control of the state.
Prosecutors said it's too soon to draw conclusions from the surveillance video.
"We're not going to confirm or deny anything," Veracruz state Attorney General Reynaldo Escobar Perez told the Televisa network Wednesday. "We're looking at it in different ways, we're seeing different numbers, that's why we don't want to get ahead of ourselves."
http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/gty_mexico_32_bodies_jp_110921_wg.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)
AFP/Getty Images
General view of the scene where 35 bodies... View Full Size (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)


http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/gty_mexico_32_bodies_jp_110921_wg.jpg AFP/Getty Images
General view of the scene where 35 bodies were found at the Adolfo Ruiz Cortinez Blvd in Boca del Rio municipality, Veracruz State, Mexico, Sept. 20, 2011.


Escobar said the bodies were left piled in two trucks and on the ground under the overpass near the statue of the Voladores de Papantla, ritual dancers from Veracruz state. He said some of the victims had their heads covered with black plastic bags and showed signs of torture.
Among the bodies was a local police officer who had gone missing two weeks ago, Escobar told W Radio in Mexico City. He told MVS Radio many of the victims were strangled, some bled to death and one person had been shot dead.
Escobar did not return phone calls from The Associated Press.
Police have identified 32 of the victims so far and maintain they all had criminal records for acts such as murder, drug dealing, kidnapping and extortion and were linked to organized crime, said Magda Zayas, spokeswoman for the Veracruz Attorney General's Office.
State Gov. Javier Duarte said on his Twitter account "the killing of 35 people is deplorable, but it's even more deplorable the same victims chose to extort, kidnap and kill."
Duarte said an intelligence database shows the 35 victims had a criminal background.
Motorists posted Twitter warnings said the masked gunmen were in military uniforms and were blocking Manuel Avila Camacho Boulevard.
"They don't seem to be soldiers or police," one tweet read. Another said, "Don't go through that area, there is danger."
Veracruz is currently hosting a conference of Mexico's top state and federal prosecutors and judiciary officials.
Local media said that 12 of the victims were women and that some of the dead men had been among prisoners who escaped from three Veracruz prisons on Monday, but Escobar denied the escaped convicts were among the dead.
At least 32 inmates got away from the three Veracruz prisons. Police recaptured 14 of them.
Drug violence has claimed more than 35,000 lives across Mexico since 2006, according to government figures. Others put the number at more than 40,000.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/mexico-horror-gunmen-dump-35-bodies-avenue-14570209

[TotalMayhem]

What group were these masked gunmen were in military uniforms from I wonder , what country ?

A message left beside the bodies found on Tuesday threatened to kill all Zetas and announced: "There is a new owner of the turf." The message was signed GN, initially assumed to refer to Gente Nueva (New People), a name used elsewhere in Mexico by gunmen associated with the Sinaloa cartel.

[Fermoy]

A message left beside the bodies found on Tuesday threatened to kill all Zetas and announced: "There is a new owner of the turf." The message was signed GN, initially assumed to refer to Gente Nueva (New People), a name used elsewhere in Mexico by gunmen associated with the Sinaloa cartel.
Anyone could have left that note .

[sinsin]

A message left beside the bodies found on Tuesday threatened to kill all Zetas and announced: "There is a new owner of the turf." The message was signed GN, initially assumed to refer to Gente Nueva (New People), a name used elsewhere in Mexico by gunmen associated with the Sinaloa cartel.

Sinaloa cartel are US backed.
Follow the money.

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2011/07/us-court-documents-claim-sinaloa-cartel-protected-us-government

[C. Flower]

A woman has been found decapitated apparently for the posting she made on social media websites, against drug cartel operations.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/woman-decapitated-in-mexico-for-web-postings-521928.html

The same "Z" crowd, apparently, who are said to be "army deserters"

[Fermoy]

A woman has been found decapitated apparently for the posting she made on social media websites, against drug cartel operations.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/woman-decapitated-in-mexico-for-web-postings-521928.html

The same "Z" crowd, apparently, who are said to be "army deserters"

Sinsin ,
take note , the cartel might follow your money :D

[sinsin]

Sinsin ,
take note , the cartel might follow your money :D
:)


New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) Chairman Richard Grasso with a FARC Commander.

The purpose of the trip was "to bring a message of cooperation from U.S. financial services" and to discuss foreign investment and the future role of U.S. businesses in Colombia.
Some reading in between the lines would say that Grasso's mission related to the continued circulation of cocaine capital through the US financial system. FARC, the Colombian rebels, were circulating their profits back into local development without the assistance of the American banking and investment system.

Here is a pic that you will not see in Time magazine.
"Invest your money with us"

http://www.oilempire.us/oil-jpg/feb12fab54a8589b4b0e.jpeg

Or maybe He was on holidays searching for a giant anaconda and popped in for a cup of coffee?:D

Follow the money.

[TotalMayhem]

New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) Chairman Richard Grasso with a FARC Commander.

So Mr Grasso is hugging a Marxist–Leninist guerrilla leader? While I'm not surprised (Commies aren't exactly the sharpest crayons in the box of financial matters) I fail to see the connection with Mexican drug cartels here (different continent, very different agenda).

[sinsin]

So Mr Grasso is hugging a Marxist–Leninist guerrilla leader? While I'm not surprised (Commies aren't exactly the sharpest crayons in the box of financial matters) I fail to see the connection with Mexican drug cartels here (different continent, very different agenda).
Do they produce cocaine in Mexico?:confused:

[Fermoy]

Do they produce cocaine in Mexico?:confused:
They may well do , they certainly traffic it .

Where did you come across mention of producing ?

[sinsin]

They may well do , they certainly traffic it .

Where did you come across mention of producing ?

So Mr Grasso is hugging a Marxist–Leninist guerrilla leader? While I'm not surprised (Commies aren't exactly the sharpest crayons in the box of financial matters) I fail to see the connection with Mexican drug cartels here (different continent, very different agenda).

Replying to Total Mayham who fails to see the connection between Columbian cocaine production and Mexican drug cartels.
Implying that Mexican cartels traffic Mexican produced cocaine.

[rebellin]

More on the Fast and Furious case SinSin brought up
This is a very big deal in the US now. The various cover ups around it could lead to AG Holder's removal. Holder has been building a Chine Wall of protection for all the Obama scandals that both Liberals and conservatives have said are Obama's impeachable offenses. If Holder goes, Obama;s DOJ protection falls.
Fast and Furious is important in its own right, but this situation makes it a hot political football.
.
In the Fast and Furious case, on Friday, Sept. 9 Congressional investigators formally asked the Obama administration to turn over copies of all records involving three key White House national security officials and the program, other ATF gun cases in Phoenix, and all communications between the White House and the ATF field office in Arizona. The letter was sent by Issa and Grassley to National Security Adviser Thomas E. Donilon, a top aide to President Barack Obama. The letter comes after a series of emails surfaced showing that William D. Newell, the ATF field supervisor in Phoenix during Fast and Furious, was in routine contact with Kevin O'Reilly, then the White House director of North American Affairs for the National Security Council. The White House has said that O'Reilly forwarded the emails to two other White House officials, Dan Restrepo, special assistant to the President and senior director for Western Hemisphere Affairs on the NSC, and Greg Galjanis, director for Terrorist Finance and Counternarcotics, Counterterrorism Policy. The letter requests all emails, documents, briefing papers, and handwritten notes involving O'Reilly, Restrepo, and Galjanis during the Fast and Furious period. The committee also wants to personally interview O'Reilly by the end of this month.
Finally, previously secret tape recordings, made in March 2011 by Andre Howard, owner of Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Ariz., of his discussions with ATF agent Hope McAllister, have now emerged, in which they express concern that one of the whistle blowers had turned over material to investigators which was 'more toxic than you realize.' The discussion suggests an attempted cover-up. The gun dealer reports that the file was released to Senator Patrick Leahy and Senator Grassley, "but Leahy as we both know has adjourned this inquiry right now, okay, with no plans to reconvene it. So your people were successful on that end." The agent responds: "Right." The dealer also says that Holder was going to respond to an inquiry from Lamar Smith just as he had to Grassley: "And I can assure you the media isn't gonna like his response because basically it's gonna mirror what he's told Grassley." Agent: "Yeah." Dealer: "He can't deviate." Agent: "At some point they're gonna have to say Grassley, you're just gonna have to sit your a... down. I mean, like I said, my understanding is he can't call a hearing. Somebody from the majority party has got to call a congressional hearing and as of right now...."
In a further remarkable twist, these tapes, which were turned over to Issa's committee, which in turn forwarded them to the Inspector General, were later released by the Inspector General to the the office of the US Attorney and the ATF in Arizona, which are the target of the investigation.
On Tuesday Issa and Grassley wrote a letter to Justice Inspector General Cynthia Schneder, charging her with compromising and obstructing their investigation.
The letter described how an ATF supervisor, in discussing the congressional inquiry, allegedly said, "We are all on the same sheet of music. And if we stay on the same sheet of music, we will be all right."
Grassley and Issa said allegations that the U.S. Attorney's office and ATF personnel sought to influence witness testimony deserved "thorough, aggressive and independent investigation."

[rebellin]

:)


New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) Chairman Richard Grasso with a FARC Commander.

The purpose of the trip was "to bring a message of cooperation from U.S. financial services" and to discuss foreign investment and the future role of U.S. businesses in Colombia.
Some reading in between the lines would say that Grasso's mission related to the continued circulation of cocaine capital through the US financial system. FARC, the Colombian rebels, were circulating their profits back into local development without the assistance of the American banking and investment system.

Here is a pic that you will not see in Time magazine.
"Invest your money with us"

http://www.oilempire.us/oil-jpg/feb12fab54a8589b4b0e.jpeg

Follow the money.

Going back to SinSin's citing what became known as the Grasso Embrasso--
He is right, and you don't have to read between the lines, to know that the embrasso wasn't for the FARC's so called political ideology, but for their bloody dope operations, which were money laundered through Wall Street and other world financial dirty operations.

[TotalMayhem]

NYT article (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/mexico/drug_trafficking/index.html) about the US involvement... drones, informant network, secret ops, the works.

[Andrew49]

The mutilated corpses of 43 men and six women were found in a pile on a highway in the municipality of Cadereyta Jimenez, officials from the state of Nuevo Leon said. "What's complicating the identification of all the people was that they were all headless," said Jorge Domene, the Nuevo Leon government's spokesman for public security. He also said their hands and feet were missing. Mr Domene said the Zetas drug gang claimed responsibility for the murders in a message found at the scene. RTE (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0513/49-bodies-found-on-a-highway-in-mexico.html)

[Count Bobulescu]

The mutilated corpses of 43 men and six women were found in a pile on a highway in the municipality of Cadereyta Jimenez, officials from the state of Nuevo Leon said. "What's complicating the identification of all the people was that they were all headless," said Jorge Domene, the Nuevo Leon government's spokesman for public security. He also said their hands and feet were missing. Mr Domene said the Zetas drug gang claimed responsibility for the murders in a message found at the scene. RTE (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0513/49-bodies-found-on-a-highway-in-mexico.html)
WaPo is now reporting there may be as a many as 70 bodies. There were 24/25 a few weeks back.

[Count Bobulescu]

CF had said last week that she would be starting a thread on Fast & Furious (F&F) but has yet to do so, so I’m going to jump in now because once the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare comes down this week it will suck the air out of most other US news, and, I feel like huffing and puffing today.


21-06-2012, 07:54 PM

C. Flower
Administrator

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Rockall
Posts: 42,756

Re: Watergate Revisited: 40th Anniversary

Huff and puff, Count Bobolescu.

I'll be starting a thread on "Fast and Furious"..*cringe*

in the morning.

http://www.thirdage.com/news/eric-ho...ion_10-04-2011Others, (read Rebellin and me buddy Lyndon LaRouche), appear to believe there are similarities between todays Executive Privilege (EP) dispute and the Watergate affair. Other than the invocation of EP there are none. Watergate was a criminal enterprise, there are no such allegations of criminality with F & S. Since this is the first assertion of EP since PW was launched it is worth a thread, so here goes.

My own belief is that this is a faux fight will eventually fizzle out into a non issue because each side is afraid of losing “officially” in court, so an unofficial compromise will be reached.

The motion of contempt for the Attorney General is being driven by Tea Party wing of the GOP who have a particular dislike of AG Holder because he has challenged state laws particularly in Florida that are perceived by minorities as nothing more than attempts at voter turnout suppression that would benefit the GOP. Mitt Romney, and other GOP leaders definitely do not want this fight to continue, they would much rather be attacking Obama on jobs and the economy
and they see this dispute as an unnecessary diversion.

The full House is expected to vote later this week to hold Holder in contempt. The next step would be for the Justice Dept. which Holder runs, to begin an investigation of Holder. Not gonna happen. The alternative would be to ask a judge to intervene directly, also unlikely because of other precedential risks involved. The most likely alternative is protracted negotiations dragging on for months until the clock runs out on the current Congress in January, and the new Congress would have to start over again. This is seen as an unlikely prospect.

Quickest way to get up to speed on F&S and EP is to read the following pieces.

What is Executive Privilege?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jdte_DQ9fDXocChJIsdI1drq-SsQ?docId=b8263f7a83494627a24dd1baa75c54fa


WASHINGTON (AP) — Presidents going back to George Washington have claimed a murky power to keep the inner workings of their administrations secret from Congress.
That authority, known as executive privilege, isn't in the Constitution. It hasn't been clearly defined by the courts. Yet invoking it has proved effective for presidents determined to keep witnesses or documents away from congressional investigators.
President Barack Obama is the latest to assert the privilege.
He refused on Wednesday to turn over some Justice Department documents about a botched anti-smuggling operation that allowed hundreds of guns sold in Arizona to end up in Mexico. The House Government Oversight and Reform Committee has voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress. The committee's recommendation goes to the full House for a vote, unless the White House and lawmakers negotiate a way to defuse the conflict.

A look, in question and answer form, at executive privilege and the fuzzy state of the law regarding showdowns between Congress and a president:

Q: How can a president shrug off a subpoena from a congressional committee?
A: Presidents say they should be free to engage in private decision-making with their advisers without fearing how their words or internal memos might look to Congress or the public. Several presidents have argued that this authority also extends to the work of high-level agency officials, even if they weren't communicating with the president or White House about that work.

Q: Where does the idea of executive privilege come from?
A: It's a principle based on the constitutionally mandated separation of powers — the idea that the executive branch, Congress and the courts operate independently of each other.
The concept of executive privilege dates at least to 1792, when Congress was probing St. Clair's Defeat, a disastrous battle against American Indians that cost the lives of hundreds of U.S. soldiers. Washington and his Cabinet decided the president had the right to refuse to turn over some documents if disclosing them would harm the public. In the end, Washington gave lawmakers what they sought. But the idea that later became known as executive privilege took root.

Q: Didn't the Supreme Court settle the issue when it ordered President Richard Nixon to hand over the Watergate tapes recorded in the White House?
A: Not really. The court ordered Nixon to surrender the tapes in that case — a criminal investigation. But the justices also found a constitutional basis for claims of executive privilege, leaving the door open for presidents to cite it in future clashes with Congress.

Q: Do presidents claim executive privilege often?
A: Most reach for it sparingly. Wednesday was Obama's first time in his 3 1/2 years in office. His predecessor, George W. Bush, cited it six times in eight years. Bush's father invoked it only once in his single term, to withhold a memo related to a Navy jet project canceled amid billions of dollars in cost overruns.
The administration of President Bill Clinton, who faced investigation of his Whitewater land deals and then impeachment in a sex-and-lies scandal, apparently asserted executive privilege 14 times. Those claims weren't put in writing, however, and some were quickly dropped.

Q: What comes next for Obama?
A: Probably more negotiation. In the past, presidents and lawmakers have been loath to let an executive privilege fight escalate into a court battle.

Q: Why not go to court to settle questions about executive privilege once and for all?
A: There's too much risk for both sides. Presidents worry that if they lose, courts will take away a valuable tool and weaken the power of the office. If the lawmakers lose, they could permanently weaken Congress' subpoena power when it investigates executive branch blunders.

Q: What if the White House and Congress can't reach a compromise?
A: The next step is a contempt of Congress vote in the full Republican-controlled House. Full House approval would send the case to the local U.S. attorney for enforcement. Who is that U.S. attorney's boss? Holder and, ultimately, Obama, who appointed him.
That's why the Justice Department traditionally declines to pursue such criminal contempt of Congress cases.

Q: Is there something else Congress could do?
A: If, as history suggests, the Justice Department won't prosecute a criminal case against Holder, the House could hire its own lawyer and file a civil lawsuit in federal court in hopes of winning an order for Holder to turn over the documents. But in addition to the risk of losing, a court fight would be long and drawn out, making that an unappealing option.

The Democratic-controlled House filed suit in 2008 to compel testimony from former aides to President George W. Bush. Lawmakers were investigating whether the firings of nine U.S. attorneys had been politically motivated. The House won the first round in court; while that decision was under appeal a settlement was reached and the lawsuit was dropped.
Lawmakers finally heard some of the testimony they had sought a year and a half earlier — but only after Bush's term had ended and a newly elected Congress had been seated.
Copyright © 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
WaPo Editorial

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/congress-has-a-right-to-probe-operation-fast-and-furious/2012/06/21/gJQAERvktV_story.html?hpid=z3


THE FIRST THING to say about President Obama’s assertion of executive privilege in the House investigation of the “Fast and Furious” operation is that it never should have come to this.

Launched in 2009 in the Phoenix office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Fast and Furious was supposed to track high-powered weapons from their point of purchase in the United States to end-users in the Mexican drug cartels. Tragically, the bureau lost 2,500 weapons, some of which have been linked to crimes south of the border. Two of the guns turned up where a U.S. Border Patrol agent was slain. While similar in principle to other infiltrations of organized crime, this operation was especially risky, given the threat posed by loose guns, and poorly executed.

On that much, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. and his Republican pursuers in Congress agree. What Republicans are loath to admit is that the ATF tried Fast and Furious in lieu of other means of combating illegal weapons-trafficking partly because Congress, at the behest of gun-rights advocates, has resisted virtually every proposal to empower the bureau against the buying and selling of firearms destined for illegal use in Mexico.

We also would not have reached this point if an assistant attorney general had not responded to a February 2011 inquiry from Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) by mistakenly denying that there ever was an Operation Fast and Furious. After ATF whistleblowers debunked that claim, a congressional investigation was inevitable.
No evidence has emerged since to show anything but an honest bureaucratic mistake — albeit a serious one — which Mr. Holder has subsequently acknowledged, as he has tried to correct what went wrong in Fast and Furious and ordered an investigation by the Justice Department’s inspector general. Nor is there evidence in the many thousands of pages the department has turned over to Rep. Darrell Issa, the California Republican leading the investigation, to contradict Mr. Holder’s basic claim that he did not know the details of Fast and Furious until long after the operation began.

This tells us there would be no looming constitutional clash if Mr. Issa and his committee assumed Mr. Holder’s good faith. But it has been a long time since that much comity prevailed in Washington. Politics, especially the politics of the Second Amendment, have a lot to do with Mr. Issa’s escalation of the matter and, no doubt, with Mr. Holder’s refusal to turn over the documents Mr. Issa subpoenaed last October.

The question now is whether Mr. Issa’s subpoena was so abusive that President Obama, on behalf of Mr. Holder, was right to cite executive privilege in defying it.
The administration is on relatively firm ground in refusing to release wiretap records or prosecutorial memoranda that might affect ongoing criminal investigations. We’re less impressed by its claim that the subpoena improperly demands internal records relating to the Justice Department’s response to Mr. Issa’s investigation — as opposed to Fast and Furious itself.

Perhaps it’s true, as the White House has argued, that Mr. Issa’s investigation has degenerated into a partisan fishing expedition. And perhaps yielding to that would discourage candor in the councils of this and future administrations, as the Obama administration, echoing a standard plea of its predecessors, asserts.
But Congress’s authority to gather information is broad — as broad as its sweeping powers to legislate, spend public money and hold executive officials accountable through impeachment. No doubt a lot of congressional investigations are partisan fishing expeditions. For better or worse, that comes with the democratic territory. Absent very strong countervailing considerations — stronger than some of those the administration has asserted in this case — Congress is generally entitled to disclosure.
[
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/six-decades-of-executive-privilege/2012/06/20/gJQA7eZKrV_graphic.html


What is Fast and Furious?

For years, the U.S. government ran an elaborate "gunwalking" operation on the Mexican border. It was a high-stakes sting operation in which the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives -- a part of the Justice Department -- opted not to stop purchases of weapons that it suspected were intended for smuggling across the border by traffickers. The goal was to let "straw buyers" purchase the guns and move them to large-scale traffickers, but to stop the weapons before they moved across the border. It's a method that law enforcement agencies have used for some time -- the ATF was doing it at least as far back as 2006. The specific operation called "Fast and Furious" dates to 2009 and was apparently initiated by an ATF agent in Phoenix.
Did it work?
Not really -- Justice can't point to a single instance of a major boss the operation took down. But as one might imagine, the ATF was unable to keep track of all of the guns. In fact, the agency managed to lose track of some 2,000 guns. Those weapons were later connected to various violent crimes. Most notably, two were found at the scene after a Border Patrol agent named Brian Terry was killed in a firefight on December 10, 2010 with suspected illegal immigrants in Arizona (it's unclear whether one of the guns fired the bullet that killed him). Reports following that murder revealed that the guns had been part of a tracking operation.
Is anyone defending Fast and Furious?
.
Read more.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/eric-holder-contempt-of-congress-and-fast-and-furious-what-you-need-to-know/258783/

[rebellin]

Since the Count cited me and LaRouche on Fast and Furious I should add this to the debate:
Tag, You're It: A Changing View of Executive Privilege


The administration has a tendency to "hide behind executive privilege every time there's something a little shaky that's taking place." This remark, reported in today's Washington Post, was made by none other than U.S. Senator Barack Obama in 2007. The subject was hanky-panky in the Bush Justice Department, and President Bush's assertion of executive privilege to block senior White House adviser Karl Rove from testifying before Congress in a scandal involving the firing of nine U.S. Attorneys for political reasons. "Obama urged Bush to consider 'coming clean,' adding that 'the American people deserve to know what was going on there,'" the Post recapped.

One can only recall the Watergate-era admonition of Nixon Administration officials, that previous statements were "no longer operative."

In a related blast from the past, the Washington Examiner recalled, yesterday, a 2005 Senate floor speech by Senator Obama opposing Bush's nomination of Alberto Gonzalez. Obama said, "The Attorney General's job is not just to enforce the President's laws; it is to tell the President what the law is. The job is not simply to facilitate the President's power; it is to speak truth to that power as well." The article says Obama added, "The President is not the Attorney General's client; the people are. And so the true test of an Attorney General nominee is whether that person is ready to put the Constitution of the people before the political agenda of the President."

The Count shouldn't worry about this story going away. The Supreme Court's decision on Thursday, whatever it may be, will just add fuel to the fire.
This video, the Swarming of Obama, tells that story http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/the-swarming-of-obama/

[C. Flower]

CF had said last week that she would be starting a thread on Fast & Furious (F&F) but has yet to do so, so I’m going to jump in now because once the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare comes down this week it will suck the air out of most other US news, and, I feel like huffing and puffing today.

....

What is Fast and Furious?
Read more.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/eric-holder-contempt-of-congress-and-fast-and-furious-what-you-need-to-know/258783/

Apologies Count Bobulescu and thanks for starting the topic. I've been reading my way through the thread that we already have on Mexico, the cartels, and US involvement, including the "Fast and Furious" intervention.

Would you have any objection to these threads being merged ?

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=4547&highlight=mexico

[C. Flower]

Surely, the most important issue here is what the heck in the US doing swamping the Mexico drug cartels with arms?

[Newsy]

Surely, the most important issue here is what the heck in the US doing swamping the Mexico drug cartels with arms?

I watched a report on CNN the other night on this whole issue. I was left with the same question.

[C. Flower]

I watched a report on CNN the other night on this whole issue. I was left with the same question.

It doesn't seem all that long ago that Mexico was doing OK - but then this kicked in.

Oil? Is the only acceptable condition for an oil region, so far as the US is concerned, a collection of failed states dominated by gangsters of one kind or another?

And of course, mammoth drug profits, recycled through US banks, and a US population suffused with mind altering substances.

[rebellin]

OBAMA COULD BE FACING A DOUBLE-WHAMMY ON THURSDAY.

The U.S. Supreme Court's ruling on Obama-care will likely be released this Thursday, June 28, the next day the court is scheduled to issue opinions, and
the final day expected for rulings this session. At the same time, House Republican aides told the Washington Post's Ed O'Keefe that the House would vote on Eric Holder's contempt of Congress Thursday as well.

[Count Bobulescu]

Apologies Count Bobulescu and thanks for starting the topic. I've been reading my way through the thread that we already have on Mexico, the cartels, and US involvement, including the "Fast and Furious" intervention.

Would you have any objection to these threads being merged ?

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=4547&highlight=mexico

I reread the Mexican thread and I have no objection on principle to the merge, but I do think it wouldn’t serve much purpose, therefore better not to. Here’s why.

The F&F and other similar programs have all now been discontinued and there will likely not be much new information on them, save for whatever records the Obama admin releases to Congress, and most believe that this will reveal only bureaucratic bungling rather than any malign intent. There was a similar program during the Bush years, so this “gun walking” is pretty old news and all of it stopped by 2010. It is now looked upon as a stupid plan.

If you look at all the current coverage it mostly focuses on the EP rather than the F&F aspect. The F&F side was dealt with in the US media two years ago, as is apparent from reading Rebellin’s postings in the Mexican thread. Going forward the debate such as it will be, will likely focus on EP rather than F&F, and EP has nothing to do with Mexico.


Your use of the term “swamping the Mexican drug cartles with guns” is probably an overstatement. F&F involved about 2,000 guns of which an unknown number believed in the 13 to 14 hundreds went missing. In the context of US and Mexican gun violence that’s pretty small beans. The purpose was to create entrapment to fight drug trafficking. Most of the guns used in the Mexican drug wars are smuggled in from the US. F&F and the other programs were an attempt to entrap the drug traffickers done with the blessing of the Mexican authorities.




The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) ran a series of "gunwalking" sting operations[2][3] between 2006[4] and 2011.[2][5] This was done under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner, a project intended to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico by interdicting straw purchasers and gun traffickers within the United States.[6] "Gunwalking" or "letting guns walk" was a tactic whereby the ATF knowingly allowed thousands of guns to be bought by suspected arms traffickers ("gunrunners") working through straw purchasers on behalf of Mexican drug cartels.[7]
The stated goal of allowing these purchases was to continue to track the firearms as they were transferred to higher-level traffickers and key figures in Mexican cartels, in theory leading to their arrests and the dismantling of the cartels. Note: The names of drug cartel leaders were already known to Mexican authorities -- these people would have been arrested if they could have been found. Allowing guns to "walk into" Mexico did not help find drug cartel leaders in 2006 and 2007, even with the full cooperation of Mexican authorities. It makes no sense to assume the same goal applied in 2009 and 2010, with far more guns to track, and keeping the operation secret from Mexican authorities. If the 2009 and 2010 goals were stated on ATF documents, then post a link to those documents -- don't assume the goals were the same for every operation! [8][9] The tactic was questioned during the operations by a number of people, including ATF field agents and cooperating licensed gun dealers.[10][11][12][13][14] Operation Fast and Furious, by far the largest "gunwalking" probe, led to the sale of over 2,000 firearms, of which nearly 700 were recovered as of October 20, 2011.[15] A number of straw purchasers have been arrested and indicted; however, as of October 2011, none of the targeted high-level cartel figures have been arrested.[7]

read more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

[Count Bobulescu]

More analysis and commentary on EP.


In 2006, when George W. Bush was president, federal law enforcement officials came up with a spectacularly dumb idea: Allow powerful firearms purchased in the United States to “walk” across the Mexican border, where authorities would trace the weapons and eventually nab the big-time criminals who supply guns to the ultra-violent Mexican drug cartels.

It is no surprise that most of the weapons promptly disappeared.
But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), undeterred by failure, went back to the “gun-walking” technique again the following year — and used it once more in 2009, after President Obama had taken office, in the tragic fiasco known as “Operation Fast and Furious.”

These are the facts, and they don’t cover any Justice Department officials with glory. But neither do they remotely justify the partisan witch hunt by House Republicans who threaten, without legitimate cause, to hold Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. in contempt of Congress. Obama has responded by asserting executive privilege — effectively shutting down the inquisition.

The House wants to go fishing in a vast sea of documents, some of which relate to ongoing investigations. As a believer in sunshine and disclosure, I don’t much care for questionable claims of executive privilege. But I like the politically motivated sideshow the GOP is staging even less.Read more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-stop-the-witch-hunt-for-eric-holder/2012/06/21/gJQAYqmgtV_story.html?wpisrc=nl_opinions

Three clips from the weekend talk shows.

MTP round table EP/F&F

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/vp/47938146#47938146


This week

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/


Discussion of EP/F&F begins at about 12 mins 30.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/watch/watch%20the%20show




There is no evidence that White House officials were involved in withholding information related to a congressional inquiry into the botched gun-trafficking operation known as Operation “Fast and Furious,” the Republican lawmaker leading the investigation said Sunday.

Several Republican lawmakers, including House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio), charged last week that President Obama’s decision to invoke executive privilege over documents related to the probe suggested that top administration officials were involved in withholding information.

“The decision to invoke executive privilege is an admission that White House officials were involved in decision that misled the Congress and have covered up the truth,” Boehner told reporters last week.
But asked Sunday whether he had any evidence to back up those claims, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) said “No we don’t.”

“What we’re seeking are documents that we know exist. . .that are in fact about Brian Terry’s murder, who knew and why people were lying about it and get to the truth. That’s all we want,” Issa said on “Fox News Sunday.”
Read more.
Read more.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/darrell-issa-no-evidence-white-house-involved-in-fast-and-furious/2012/06/24/gJQAhs1kzV_blog.html?hpid=z10


The House plans to vote Thursday on a resolution that would hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt for failing to produce documents in the “Fast and Furious” gun-running investigation.

A spokeswoman for Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) confirmed on Monday that the vote is scheduled for Thursday. Republicans have said the vote could be postponed if Holder complies with subpoenas issued by the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, but President Obama has invoked executive privilege to shield Holder from releasing them.

The oversight committee, led by Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), voted along party lines last week to recommend a contempt citation. A vote by the full House would escalate a confrontation between House Republicans and the Obama administration that could wind up in court.

The vote will likely coincide with a Supreme Court ruling on Obama’s healthcare law. That ruling is likely to overshadow the House vote, but a contempt citation could compound a politically disastrous day for Obama if the court overturns the healthcare law.http://thehill.com/homenews/house/234667-holder-contempt-vote-set-for-thursday



Pelosi said it is “no accident” that Republicans are pressing for a contempt vote at the same time the DOJ has ramped up efforts to stymie voter ID laws. Democrats argue the laws prevent black and Hispanic voters from casting their ballots, while the GOP says they help prevent voter fraud.

“They’re going after Eric Holder because he is supporting measures to overturn these voter-suppression initiatives in the states,” said Pelosi.

House Republicans soundly reject those allegations. They have stuck firmly behind House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), who has said the DOJ has failed to comply with his subpoena.
“Eric Holder ends up being the custodian of the documents,” said Issa on “Fox News Sunday.” “We would go to the deputy attorney general just as easily if he would give us the documents. That’s all we are looking for, is documents, which are internal to the false statement and not part of the deliberative process.”

The contempt motion passed Issa’s committee along strict party lines. It is expected to pass the House, but securing Democratic support appears unlikely.
Issa’s investigation has proven to be divisive, with Democratic leaders calling it politically motivated.

In a move that surprised many on Capitol Hill, the Obama administration last week claimed executive privilege on the documents Issa is seeking.
Issa has noted that 31 Democrats sent a letter to President Obama expressing serious concerns about the administration’s handling of Fast and Furious and the tragic fallout of having used the “gun-walking” tactics.

“I believe it will be bipartisan,” said Issa of the measure’s support. “You’ll never know how many. But there are a number of Democrats, 31, who wrote to the administration, asking them to be forthcoming. Many of them will stay with us now that the administration has not been.”

The Hill contacted all 31 Democrats for this article. Four lawmakers — Reps. Jim Cooper (Tenn.), Tim Ryan (Ohio), Martin Heinrich (N.M.) and Gene Green (Texas) — said they were definitely not going to support the measure. A spokesman for Rep. Mike Michaud said the Maine Democrat is undecided. The remaining 26 House Democrats did not respond to requests for comment. Read more.
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/234695-dems-seek-to-recast-holder-furor-as-republican-effort-to-suppress-votes

Why ‘Fast and Furious’ is a political loser


The fight over Operation “Fast and Furious” recommences this week, as Congress returns to Washington today with a contempt vote on Attorney General Eric Holder looming.

If both parties know what’s good for them, that vote will never happen. Why? In short, it’s a political loser for both sides that, if they choose to pursue it to its natural end, will wind up making both Democrats and Republicans look worse than people already think they are.

The vote that is expected to come on Thursday — yes, the same day that the Supreme Court is expected to announce its ruling on the constitutionality of President Obama’s health care law.

Let’s start with why House Republicans would be unwise to push for a contempt vote.
At the top of that list is the fact that Congress is just in*cred*ibly unpopular. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here’s Gallup’s trend line on Congressional approval:

The highest that congressional approval has been since February 2011 is 24 percent. (Yes, you read that right.) By pushing this fight against Obama — an issue that the Republican base cares deeply about but few others are terribly interested in at the moment — the Republican-held House is allowing Obama to talk about the 2012 election in terms of a choice between him and House GOPers. That’s a bad comparison for former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, who has done his damnedest to emphasize that he’s never served one second in Washington.

The other major reason for House Republicans to turn the steering wheel in this game of political chicken is that every minute spent talking about “Fast and Furious” is one not spent talking about Obama’s handling of the economy. And the clearest path for Romney to win this fall is to turn the election into a straight referendum on Obama’s handling of the economy. (That’s the reason why Romney has been almost entirely silent on “Fast and Furious” to date.)

So, why wouldn’t the White House want this fight either?

While putting House Republicans front and center could be read as a positive for Obama, it’s clear that wrestling with them amounts to a no-win political situation for him too.

Given that, it’s hard to see how congressional approval sinks any lower, and the only impact of Obama’s stand-off with House Republicans is to be dragged down into the political mud with them. As Obama fights with congressional Republicans, Romney will spend his time talking about how he has the outside-Washington experience to fix what ails the economy.

Remember too that there is scant evidence in modern political history of voters viewing a presidential election as a choice between an incumbent and group that controls one of the chambers of Congress. To the extent this election will be a choice — and we still harbor doubts that it will be — it will be one between Obama and Romney, not Obama and House Republicans.

The “Fast and Furious” fight resembles nothing so much at the moment as the stand-off over the debt ceiling last summer. While the consequences are far less severe to the country’s well being, it’s worth remembering how much damage both parties did to themselves in the debt ceiling fight.
Given that, it’s hard to imagine either side wanting a replay this close to the November election.

[rebellin]

Re: Count
It's one thing to selectively publish the pre- Obama stories on the assumption of Fast and Furious. There are m any stories which are to the contrary which I'll give you the chance to post..

But what I find almost impossible to accept is your trying to justify the crazy Fast and Furious operation itself..

you say you don't like the operation and you're not crazy about the assumption of executive privilege, but then you use all the words in theew defensive playbook to try to minimize the problem. "Witchhunt and fishing expedition" are the defense's soundbites of choice

Really you have to rethink this thing before it really blows up.It's about to go bi partisan , as the Senate investigation into the administration's leaks led by Diane Feinsteiin already has

[rebellin]

A few hours ago I said that the line that the line that the question of holding Holder in contempt is just a partisan party trick would begin to break down.
Now the news comes out that Utah Democratic Rep. Jim Matheson said on Tuesday he plans to vote in favor of holding Holder i contempt. "It just compounds the tragedy when both sides play politics instead of releasing the facts. The Terry family, the public and Congress deserve answers. Sadly, it seems that it will take holding the attorney general in contempt to communicate that evasiveness is unacceptable." Also House Minority Whip Rep. Steny Hoyer, said he expects some Democrats to abandon party lines, but wouldn't say how many Democrats he expected to vote in favor of Holder being held in contempt.

[rebellin]

A few hours ago I said that the line that the line that the question of holding Holder in contempt is just a partisan party trick would begin to break down soon.
Now the news comes out that Utah Democratic Rep. Jim Matheson said on Tuesday he plans to vote in favor of holding Holder i contempt. "It just compounds the tragedy when both sides play politics instead of releasing the facts. The Terry family, the public and Congress deserve answers. Sadly, it seems that it will take holding the attorney general in contempt to communicate that evasiveness is unacceptable." Also House Minority Whip Rep. Steny Hoyer, said he expects some Democrats to abandon party lines, but wouldn't say how many Democrats he expected to vote in favor of Holder being held in contempt.

[Count Bobulescu]

Re Rebellin:

It's one thing to selectively publish the pre- Obama stories on the assumption of Fast and Furious. There are m any stories which are to the contrary which I'll give you the chance to post.“Gun walking” originated under Bush and ran for much longer under that admin. Republicans have completely ignored that aspect. I’m unaware of the other “stories” you reference, so I wont be posting. Unless you post them I’ll assume they don’t exist.

But what I find almost impossible to accept is your trying to justify the crazy Fast and Furious operation itself..
I’m not trying to justify it. As I’ve already said, neutral objective observers regard F&F (which was begun under Bush and ended under Obama) as a stupid idea, beset by bureaucratic bungling.

you say you don't like the operation and you're not crazy about the assumption of executive privilege, but then you use all the words in theew defensive playbook to try to minimize the problem. "Witchhunt and fishing expedition" are the defense's soundbites of choiceThere is nothing inconsistent in my view that the Republicans are wrong. Just because F&F was a stupid Bush originated program ended by Obama, does not make Republicans now right.

Really you have to rethink this thing before it really blows up.It's about to go bi partisan , as the Senate investigation into the administration's leaks led by Diane Feinsteiin already has Thirty one Democrats have previously signed a letter urging the admin to be more forthcoming. Five of those have now said they will NOT vote with the Republicans on Thursday, and one has said he will. See why in the NYT piece below. I expect a few Democrats will vote the Republicans, but they will be a minority.



WASHINGTON — The National Rifle Association has joined a Republican push to make Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. the first sitting cabinet member to be held in contempt of Congress, turning a once obscure fight over a gun-smuggling investigation into a proxy war over gun control.

Both the N.R.A. and the smaller but more strident Gun Owners of America have made Thursday’s House contempt vote crucial to their ratings of House lawmakers. The N.R.A. is pressing to win Democratic votes, said Wayne LaPierre, the group’s chief executive, and White House officials and House Democratic leaders concede that a handful of Democrats are likely to vote for the contempt resolution.

That may be more a testament to the enduring power of the gun lobby than to the bipartisan belief that Mr. Holder and the Obama administration have stonewalled Congress over the gun-smuggling investigation known as Operation Fast and Furious.

“Some members will consider the recommendations of the N.R.A.,” said Representative Steny H. Hoyer, Democrat of Maryland, the House minority whip.
Representative Jim Matheson of Utah, who is running for re-election in the most Republican district held by a Democrat, announced Tuesday that he would vote for contempt.

“Sadly, it seems that it will take holding the attorney general in contempt to communicate that evasiveness is unacceptable,” Mr. Matheson said in a statement. “It is a vote I will support.”

The vote will come as Congress tries to beat a Sunday deadline to reach deals on a major transportation bill and to extend subsidies for some student loans. On Tuesday, lawmakers gave final approval to bipartisan legislation overhauling user fees for the Food and Drug Administration.

But glimmers of cooperation are not likely to be seen in the acrimonious debate over the contempt vote. The political posturing and rhetoric leading to Thursday’s showdown mirror imbroglios past, especially the vote of a Democratic House in 2008 to hold Joshua B. Bolten, chief of staff in the Bush White House, and Harriet E. Miers, then White House counsel, in contempt over their refusal to turn over documents related to the firing of United States attorneys.

As in that case, the speaker of the House is talking about the need for the House to perform its oversight role against a stonewalling White House, and a minority leader is bristling over vital Congressional work being shunted aside for a partisan witch hunt.

The players have swapped roles, however. Speaker John A. Boehner, Republican of Ohio, was the minority leader then, and Representative Nancy Pelosi, Democrat of California, now the minority leader, was the speaker. But sub rosa conspiracy theories about gun control have turned the contempt vote into something more than a power struggle between government branches. Publicly, the House is deciding whether the attorney general has overstepped his authority by withholding documents about the Justice Department’s response once details about Fast and Furious were revealed. Privately, lawmakers must consider how the vote will be seen by the N.R.A., gun enthusiasts and hunters in their districts.

“There is a belief among a lot of people — and I believe it, too — that Fast and Furious was a political attack on the Second Amendment and that the Justice Department facilitated a crime to further their gun control political agenda,” Mr. LaPierre said. “This whole executive privilege assertion is the last gasp of a cover-up.”

Gun Owners of America, a gun lobby considered more uncompromising than the N.R.A., released a letter to Representative Joe Donnelly, a Democrat running for the Senate in Indiana, demanding his contempt vote.

“This is an issue of utmost importance to Second Amendment supporters in Indiana and throughout the country,” the group wrote.
To White House officials, such assertions are bewildering. Fast and Furious was started by the Phoenix office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to track guns as they moved into Mexico from United States gun dealerships. Seeking to build a bigger case against high-ranking gunrunners, agents did not move quickly against weapons obtained by low-level smugglers, and they lost track of 2,000 guns, most of which probably reached Mexican drug cartels.

Two were found near the scene of a shootout in which a United States Border Patrol agent, Brian Terry, was killed.

N.R.A. leaders are convinced that the operation was started to prove the Justice Department’s contention that 90 percent of the weapons fueling the Mexican drug wars come from the United States and that tighter gun laws are needed. Representative Darrell Issa, Republican of California, reflected that view on national television on Sunday.

“We have e-mail from people involved in this that are talking about using what they’re finding here to support the — basically assault weapons ban or greater reporting,” Mr. Issa, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said on ABC’s “This Week.”

The committee has yet to produce those e-mails.

Among the thousands of pages of internal e-mails and documents Congressional investigators have gathered about the operation, they found a few showing that A.T.F. officials considered using some examples of documented gun flows to build a case for requiring greater reporting of multiple “long gun,” or rifle, sales by federally licensed gun shops. They singled out AK-47 assault-style rifles and their variants.

But the gun lobby is convinced that the documents being withheld would prove a far-reaching conspiracy to build support for a gun control agenda in a second Obama administration.

A vast majority of Democrats are not buying it.

“The idea that they spread a whole lot of guns around to foment gun crimes and then call for more gun control is a very peculiar line of reasoning,” said Representative Brad Miller, Democrat of North Carolina, who says he will vote no on the contempt measure.
But, he conceded, he is not running for re-election.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/27/us/house-democrats-up-for-re-election-feel-gun-lobby-pressure-on-contempt-vote.html?_r=1&ref=politics

[C. Flower]

The US has flooded Mexico with guns with horrendous effect. Those responsible should be in jail.

[Count Bobulescu]

The US has flooded Mexico with guns with horrendous effect. Those responsible should be in jail.
Mexican drug cartels are responsible for most of the guns crossing from the US to Mexico. The gun walking was done with the blessing of Mexican authorities.

[rebellin]

~~~~LA Times: "Though Holder and the White House call it
partisan politics, and the president has asserted executive
privilege in refusing to turn over the documents, the contempt
citation would stand beside a series of setbacks for Holder -
defeats in the John Edwards and Roger Clemens criminal trials,
his retreat from trying Sept. 11 conspirators in a civilian
courthouse and the decision to keep open the military prison for
terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-holder-contempt-20120628,0,4100179.story

[Count Bobulescu]

BLACK CAUCUS MAY WALK OUT ON CONTEMPT VOTE. The Congressional Black Caucus has called a members-only "emergency" meeting today to plot a "walkout strategy" ahead of the scheduled contempt vote of Attorney General Eric Holder later in the day. The plans, detailed in an e-mail from the executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus, include circulating a letter disapproving of the vote and having lawmakers walk out of the Capitol to hold a press conference during the roll call. The letter, a draft of which is being circulated for signatures, accuses the GOP leadership of "rushing recklessly to a contempt vote." The letter is being circulated among the Black, Hispanic, Asian and Progressive caucuses, among others.

AHEAD OF CONTEMPT VOTE, SOME FAST AND FURIOUS REVELATIONS. The man behind the Fast and Furious gun sting operation spoke out publicly for the first time in an interview with The Washington Post published today, saying the program was an example of smart law enforcement and insisting the whole thing has been simply misunderstood. “It was the only way to dismantle an entire firearms-trafficking ring and stop the thousands of guns flowing to Mexico,” William D. Newell, who headed the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix, told The Post. At the same time, a massive, six-month investigation by Fortune magazine out on Wednesday claims that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels – the “gun-walking” charge – and that the widely-held perception of the scandal is wrong. A House Oversight spokesperson said the report contains “errors” and “multiple distortions.”

[rebellin]

-The US House of Representatives placed
Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress by a
255-67 vote today, for refusal to comply with a Congressional
subpoena of documents related to "Operation Fast and Furious," an
operation through which the US Bureau of of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms, under Eric Holder's Department of Justice, delivered
hundreds, or more likely thousands of high-powered US assault
weapons to the Mexican drug cartels, resulting in the deaths of
one to two US law enforcement agents, and hundreds of Mexicans.

Seventeen Democrats voted in favor of a criminal contempt
resolution. This Democratic support came despite a round of
behind-the-scenes lobbying by senior White House and Justice
officials - as well as pressure from party leaders including a
walkout from the House - all to support Holder, Politico
reported.

Holder is the first Cabinet officer ever to be held in
contempt of Congress in US history.." Never has
any Attorney General been so contemptuous of Congress, Rep.
Labrador (R-ID) noted during the debate.

Only two Republicans voted "no" on the measure, while 65
Democrats recorded "no" votes and 108 Democrats didn't cast
votes. Most of the latter had demonstratively walked out before
the vote, on orders from the Democratic leadership.

Democrats voting for the resolution were Reps. Jason Altmire
(Pa.), John Barrow (Ga.), Dan Boren (Okla.), Leonard Boswell
(Iowa), Ben Chandler (Ky.), Mark Critz (Pa.), Joe Donnelly
(Ind.), Kathy Hochul (N.Y.), Ron Kind (Wis.), Larry Kissell
(N.C.), Jim Matheson (Utah), Mike McIntyre (N.C.), Bill Owens
(N.Y.), Collin Peterson (Minn.), Nick Rahall (W.Va.), Mike Ross
(Ark.), and Tim Walz (Minn.). Many of these are quite open about
their opposition to Obama. Some are planning not to attend the Democratic Presidential Convention in Charlotte, N.C.

[Count Bobulescu]

WHAT NOW IN FAST AND FURIOUS? The House surprised no one by voting to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt on Thursday. The important thing to know is that Democratic defections were kept to a minimum—17—so the party can still plausibly call this a Republican effort. (More than 100 Democratic members walked out of the chamber without casting a vote.) House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., will probably take his beef to court and will likely avoid a Justice Department referral. Read more

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress-legacy/house-finds-holder-in-contempt-20120628

11 HOUSE DEMS WHO TOOK NRA MONEY VOTED TO PROTECT HOLDER: "Eleven of the 25 House Democrats who've taken money this year from the National Rifle Association rejected the group's call to support Thursday's contempt vote against Attorney General Eric Holder," per Tarini Parti. "Reps. John Dingell (D- Mich.), Tim Holden (D-Pa.), Tim Ryan (D-Ohio), Kurt Schrader (D-Ore.), Michael Michaud (D-Maine), Henry Cuellar (D-Texas), Ben Ray Lujan (D-N.M.) and Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) voted against holding Holder in contempt. Reps. Joe Baca (D-Calif.), Sanford Bishop (D-Ga.) and Dennis Cardoza (D-Calif.) did not vote. Only two Republicans - Rep. Scott Rigell (R-Va.) and Rep. Steven LaTourette (R-Ohio) voted against contempt. Both their campaigns have received $2,000 so far this year from the NRA." Blog post: http://politi.co/L7hiaj. Bigger story on Holder getting held in contempt: http://politi.co/N1oQHC.

[C. Flower]

WHAT NOW IN FAST AND FURIOUS? The House surprised no one by voting to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt on Thursday. The important thing to know is that Democratic defections were kept to a minimum—17—so the party can still plausibly call this a Republican effort. (More than 100 Democratic members walked out of the chamber without casting a vote.) House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., will probably take his beef to court and will likely avoid a Justice Department referral. Read more

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress-legacy/house-finds-holder-in-contempt-20120628

11 HOUSE DEMS WHO TOOK NRA MONEY VOTED TO PROTECT HOLDER: "Eleven of the 25 House Democrats who've taken money this year from the National Rifle Association rejected the group's call to support Thursday's contempt vote against Attorney General Eric Holder," per Tarini Parti. "Reps. John Dingell (D- Mich.), Tim Holden (D-Pa.), Tim Ryan (D-Ohio), Kurt Schrader (D-Ore.), Michael Michaud (D-Maine), Henry Cuellar (D-Texas), Ben Ray Lujan (D-N.M.) and Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) voted against holding Holder in contempt. Reps. Joe Baca (D-Calif.), Sanford Bishop (D-Ga.) and Dennis Cardoza (D-Calif.) did not vote. Only two Republicans - Rep. Scott Rigell (R-Va.) and Rep. Steven LaTourette (R-Ohio) voted against contempt. Both their campaigns have received $2,000 so far this year from the NRA." Blog post: http://politi.co/L7hiaj. Bigger story on Holder getting held in contempt: http://politi.co/N1oQHC.

Interesting post. Is it really all about gun sales though ?

[Count Bobulescu]

Interesting post. Is it really all about gun sales though ?
No, it has little to do with gun sales, but a lot to do with the power of the gun lobby. All the Dems who voted against Holder, are in tight electoral contests in november, and they were mostly voting strategically rather than on principle. Since few believe the criminal case against Holder is going anywhere soon, it is a cheap concession to make in order to help save your seat.
The civil case against Holder may end up in court sooner, but the prospects for that are not a lot brighter either.

[rebellin]

Christian Science Monitor run down on the history of fast and furious
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0726/How-Mexican-killers-got-US-guns-from-Fast-and-Furious-operation

[C. Flower]

Surely for the Attorney General, & and the President, to be in contempt of Congress, is not something that happens every day of the week. Is it not a very deep political crisis ?

[C. Flower]

Christian Science Monitor run down on the history of fast and furious
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0726/How-Mexican-killers-got-US-guns-from-Fast-and-Furious-operation

A clear report. The main questions seem to be the perennial "how high up did this go" and whether this operation was a very stupid attempt at a sting, or an extraordinarily obscene destabilisation operation.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0726/How-Mexican-killers-got-US-guns-from-Fast-and-Furious-operation.

[C. Flower]

I reread the Mexican thread and I have no objection on principle to the merge, but I do think it wouldn’t serve much purpose, therefore better not to. Here’s why.

The F&F and other similar programs have all now been discontinued and there will likely not be much new information on them, save for whatever records the Obama admin releases to Congress, and most believe that this will reveal only bureaucratic bungling rather than any malign intent. There was a similar program during the Bush years, so this “gun walking” is pretty old news and all of it stopped by 2010. It is now looked upon as a stupid plan.

If you look at all the current coverage it mostly focuses on the EP rather than the F&F aspect. The F&F side was dealt with in the US media two years ago, as is apparent from reading Rebellin’s postings in the Mexican thread. Going forward the debate such as it will be, will likely focus on EP rather than F&F, and EP has nothing to do with Mexico.


Your use of the term “swamping the Mexican drug cartles with guns” is probably an overstatement. F&F involved about 2,000 guns of which an unknown number believed in the 13 to 14 hundreds went missing. In the context of US and Mexican gun violence that’s pretty small beans. The purpose was to create entrapment to fight drug trafficking. Most of the guns used in the Mexican drug wars are smuggled in from the US. F&F and the other programs were an attempt to entrap the drug traffickers done with the blessing of the Mexican authorities.

On balance, I decided to merge the threads, as the importance of the issues of privilege in themselves are pretty abstract without the context of decapitations, torture, mass hangings from bridges etc. that we associate with the Sinaloa Cartel and similar.

[Count Bobulescu]

Surely for the Attorney General, & and the President, to be in contempt of Congress, is not something that happens every day of the week. Is it not a very deep political crisis ?
The President was not held in contempt, only the AG. Not a deep crisis at all. Just political grandstanding. See WaPo report in my next post.

[C. Flower]

The President was not held in contempt, only the AG. Not a deep crisis at all. Just political grandstanding. See WaPo report in my next post.

Beg your pardon, I had meant to correct that. The problem is Obama standing over Holden, and by implication this whole business.

The idea that Obama did not know about this operation - we saw his hands on involvement with bin Laden's purported assassination - seems on the improbable side.

[Count Bobulescu]

Well that didn’t take long, as expected, Justice Dept. says it will take no action on the criminal contempt citation of Holder. It’s now up to the House to take a civil case against Holder to court.

They certainly could do it, but are unlikely to do so, 1: because the courts do not like to referee disputes between Congress and the Executive as past experience shows, and 2: even if does eventually make it to a courtroom, Holder will no longer be AG, and a different House, that might have a different view will be in session. There is no way it would get to court before an election,


WASHINGTON — The Justice Department declared Friday that Attorney General Eric Holder’s decision to withhold information about a bungled gun-tracking operation from Congress does not constitute a crime and he won’t be prosecuted for contempt of Congress.

The House voted Thursday afternoon to find Holder in criminal and civil contempt for refusing to turn over the documents. President Barack Obama invoked his executive privilege authority and ordered Holder not to turn over materials about executive branch deliberations and internal recommendations.
.......

Gun-walking long has been barred by Justice Department policy, but federal agents in Arizona experimented with it in at least two investigations during the George W. Bush administration before Operation Fast and Furious. These experiments came as the department was under widespread criticism that the old policy of arresting every suspected low-level “straw purchaser” was failing to stop tens of thousands of guns from reaching Mexico, more than 68,000 in the last five years. A straw purchaser conceals that he is buying guns for others.

Fast and Furious identified more than 2,000 weapons suspected of being illicitly purchased. But agents lost track of many of the guns. Some 1,400 of them have yet to be recovered.http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-republicans-win-contempt-vote-against-attorney-general-holder-but-legal-dispute-ahead/2012/06/29/gJQAO90xAW_story.html?wpisrc=al_comboNP_p

[Count Bobulescu]

Beg your pardon, I had meant to correct that. The problem is Obama standing over Holden, and by implication this whole business.

The idea that Obama did not know about this operation - we saw his hands on involvement with bin Laden's purported assassination - seems on the improbable side.
Different circumstances. Obama gave direct authorization for the Bin Laden raid but was not directly involved in F&F. Again, see WaPo in previous post it should clear up the pieces you are missing. The ball is now in the House' "court" lets see what they do with it. They've just recessed for the 4th of July holiday. they'll be back for a few weeks July, then in recess again for August. By September they'll be thinking about their November elections, so the calendar is against them. The Dems would just love it if they filed a civil suit.

[C. Flower]

Different circumstances. Obama gave direct authorization for the Bin Laden raid but was not directly involved in F&F. Again, see WaPo in previous post it should clear up the pieces you are missing. The ball is now in the House' "court" lets see what they do with it. They've just recessed for the 4th of July holiday. they'll be back for a few weeks July, then in recess again for August. By September they'll be thinking about their November elections, so the calendar is against them. The Dems would just love it if they filed a civil suit.

We only know he was involved in the raid because a decision was made to publicise it.

[Count Bobulescu]

We only know he was involved in the raid because a decision was made to publicise it.
During the 08 campaign he said he would go into Pakistan after not just Bin Laden but others as well, and was roundly criticized by Hilary, Joe Biden and others. So if he had denied involvement no one would have believed him.

[C. Flower]

An Iran Contra Whistleblower has been jailed for selling one gun in a BATF sting.

Given the track record, the question comes up as to whether there is US government involvement in the movement of drugs north, as well as the movement of guns south.


Cele Castillo served for 12 years in the Drug Enforcement Administration where he built cases against organized drug rings in Manhattan, raided jungle cocaine labs in the amazon, conducted aerial eradication operations in Guatemala, and assembled and trained anti-narcotics units in several countries.

The eerie climax of agent Castillo's career with the DEA took place in El Salvador. One day, he received a cable from a fellow agent. He was told to investigate possible drug smuggling by Nicaraguan Contras operating from the Ilopango Air Force Base.

Castillo quickly discovered that the Contra pilots were, indeed, smuggling narcotics back into the United States - using the same pilots, planes and hangers that the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Council, under the direction of Lt. Col. Oliver North, used to maintain their covert supply operation to the Contras.

http://www.freecelecastillo.com/index2.html

http://www.freecelecastillo.com/

[Count Bobulescu]

An Iran Contra Whistleblower has been jailed for selling one gun in a BATF sting.

Given the track record, the question comes up as to whether there is US government involvement in the movement of drugs north, as well as the movement of guns south.


http://www.freecelecastillo.com/index2.html

http://www.freecelecastillo.com/
Not sure what this El Salvador/ Nicaraguan case from the Reagan Iran/Contra days has to do with the current Mexican drug cartels or Executive Privilege? You’ll have to explain that one to me.

[C. Flower]

Not sure what this El Salvador/ Nicaraguan case from the Reagan Iran/Contra days has to do with the current Mexican drug cartels or Executive Privilege? You’ll have to explain that one to me.

A lot more than does Watergate.

US track record in gun and drug operations in South America is surely relevant ?

There's been a lot of emphasis on BTAF involvement in this, but the DEA and FBI are too, it seems, running "cartel leaders" who were paid by them.


According to Melson, some of the Mexican drug cartel leaders being targeted were paid informants working for the FBI and DEA. Those agencies never shared that crucial information with the ATF, he said, telling investigators that if ATF agents had known of the relationships, the agency might have ended the investigation much earlier.



http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.freecelecastillo.com/Federal_Involvement.html

[C. Flower]

With 60,000 people dead in the last 10 years in the "drugs war" the Mexican elections today don't look too relevant.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/07/01/mexico-election-idINL2E8HTI8I20120701

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CE8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMexican _general_election%2C_2012&ei=SzjwT92HI9KYhQf5q9mPDQ&usg=AFQjCNEdONtfb0OD48yd8EpXKaBKg64TJA

[C. Flower]

You are well behind the curve on this one,lads.
I will make a few posts on it,
But I don't want to take over the thread.

The ATF's "Fast and Furious" operation allowed thousands of weapons to be smuggled into Mexico and into the hands of drug cartels.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-mainmenu-26/north-america-mainmenu-36/9064-mexican-officials-furious-over-atf-gunrunning

http://publicintelligence.net/atf-fast-and-furious-top-gun-trafficking-suspects-were-fbi-dea-informants/

This is the clearest report I've seen on US agency connections with the cartels.

http://publicintelligence.net/atf-fast-and-furious-top-gun-trafficking-suspects-were-fbi-dea-informants/

It suggests that the reason for resistance to releasing information on US covert activities in Mexico is to protect "ongoing investigations" i.e. to protect US agents currently operating in the cartels.

[Count Bobulescu]

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. sharply criticized lawmakers Monday for voting to hold him in contempt of Congress last week, saying Republicans have made him a “proxy” to attack President Obama in an election year.
In his first interview since Thursday’s vote, Holder said lawmakers have used an investigation of a botched gun-tracking operation as a way to seek retribution against the Justice Department for its policies on a host of issues, including immigration, voting rights and gay marriage. He said the chairman of the committee leading the inquiry, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), is engaging in political theater as the Justice Department tries to focus on public safety.

“I’ve become a symbol of what they don’t like about the positions this Justice Department has taken,” he said. “I am also a proxy for the president in an election year. You have to be exceedingly naive to think that vote was about . . . documents.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/eric-holder-says-republicans-have-made-him-a-proxy-to-attack-president-obama/2012/07/02/gJQAKDxMJW_story.html?hpid=z1

[Count Bobulescu]

Grassley was the person who initially began asking Holder for the records, on behalf of the Senate, but he was forced to hand control of the issue over to the House.


Less than one week after the House voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt, Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) is demanding additional information from the Justice Department regarding the botched "Fast and Furious" gun-tracking operation.
On Tuesday, Grassley, ranking member of the Senate Judiciary committee, sent a letter to Holder questioning who within the Justice Department knew of a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) memorandum reportedly circulated one day prior to the DOJ denying allegations of sanctioned “gunwalking” to lawmakers.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/236227-sen-grassley-demands-additional-fast-and-furious-documents

[Count Bobulescu]

This may be an attempt to portray the Republicans as having messed up an ongoing investigation, or it may be entirely innocent.


TUCSON, Ariz. — Authorities made a rare disclosure Monday linked to the botched gun-smuggling investigation known as Operation Fast and Furious, revealing identities and requesting the public’s help in capturing four fugitives accused in the shooting death of a U.S. Border Patrol agent 18 months ago.

“We believe it’s in the best interest of this ongoing investigation to unseal the case at this point in time and to enlist the assistance of the general publics in both Mexico and the United States,” said federal prosecutor Laura Duffy. She said the decision to release the information came independently and would not discuss the recent congressional action against Holder.http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/feds-name-4-suspects-in-border-agents-death-linked-to-operation-fast-and-furious/2012/07/09/gJQAeFweYW_story.html?hpid=z6

[C. Flower]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/eric-holder-says-republicans-have-made-him-a-proxy-to-attack-president-obama/2012/07/02/gJQAKDxMJW_story.html?hpid=z1

What is his point exactly? Why would people need a proxy, when it is perfectly legal (although not PC) to criticise Obama?

[C. Flower]

This may be an attempt to portray the Republicans as having messed up an ongoing investigation, or it may be entirely innocent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/feds-name-4-suspects-in-border-agents-death-linked-to-operation-fast-and-furious/2012/07/09/gJQAeFweYW_story.html?hpid=z6

Good god. I didn't realise that the Government was refusing to release IDs of suspects who may have killed the police officer.

Now why do that ?


Federal authorities have repeatedly declined to disclose information related to the death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, such as what became of the gun used to kill him.The release of the suspects’ identities in a newly unsealed indictment Monday came with the offer of a $1 million reward for information leading to their capture.
The FBI says it is seeking information related to Jesus Rosario Favela-Astorga, 31, Ivan Soto-Barraza, 34, Heraclio Osorio-Arellanes, 34, and Lionel Portillo-Meza.
Portillo-Meza’s age and birthplace were unavailable. The other three fugitives were born in Mexico, but their hometowns were not available.
Authorities had previously released the identity of the fifth suspect, Manuel Osorio-Arellanes, of El Fuerte in the Mexican state of Sinaloa. He was shot during the gunfight, and has been in custody since the night of the shooting. He has pleaded not guilty in the case, telling investigators that he raised his weapon toward the agents during the shootout but didn’t fire, the FBI said in records.


The disclosures are among the few details released by authorities despite repeated requests from congressional leaders and news organizations, including The Associated Press. The FBI, ATF, and U.S. Customs and Border Protection have all denied Freedom of Information Act requests that seek reports and other documents in the investigation of the shooting.

[Count Bobulescu]

What is his point exactly? Why would people need a proxy, when it is perfectly legal (although not PC) to criticise Obama?
I don't follow, whose point? Holder?

[Count Bobulescu]

Good god. I didn't realise that the Government was refusing to release IDs of suspects who may have killed the police officer.

Now why do that ?
They were investigating on a sealed indictment, that they have now unsealed and lost any element of surprise, that's not uncommon across administrations. I don't see much unusual with that.

[Count Bobulescu]

When the Irish LulzSec hackers got some press attention, it was because the Feds decided to unseal a previously sealed indictment. I don’t know what the percentage of indictments that are sealed as opposed to unsealed, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was 5-10%. They do it in the most serious of cases.

[Count Bobulescu]

Justice Department shrugs off Fast and Furious report.
Officials say they have moved ahead with reforms to prevent problems like those with the ATF's Fast and Furious gun-tracking operation.

Further, the attorney for the ATF special agent in charge in Phoenix, who oversaw Fast and Furious, lashed out at Republican congressional leaders, calling their report a "political witch hunt" aimed less at finding fault than pinning Democrats with negative political fallout from Fast and Furious.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fastandfurious-20120801,0,880902.story

[Ephilant]

The real problem




http://i50.tinypic.com/35aqalg.jpg


with the predictable results:




http://i48.tinypic.com/awndd.jpg


Just Follow the Money!

[C. Flower]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fastandfurious-20120801,0,880902.story

This is the story, and the distraction nonsense about "this is all an attack on Obama" coming from the agent, is just reaction to it.


The report by Rep. Darrell Issa (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/darrell-e-issa-PEPLT003178.topic) (R-Vista), chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/u.s.-house-committee-on-oversight-government-reform-ORGOV000312.topic), and Sen. Charles E. Grassley, the top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/u.s.-senate-committee-on-the-judiciary-ORGOV000295.topic), concluded that five supervisors at the federalBureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives were collectively responsible for Fast and Furious, which allowed about 2,500 weapons to be illegally purchased in Arizona.

[Count Bobulescu]

This is the story, and the distraction nonsense about "this is all an attack on Obama" coming from the agent, is just reaction to it.

.
Republicans have simply latched on to the death of a single US law enforcement officer and are trying with the help of his family to exploit it for political purposes. They weren’t interested in gun walking when it was happening under the Bush admin.

[riposte]

Anyone could have left that note .

Well it wasn't me.

[C. Flower]

Republicans have simply latched on to the death of a single US law enforcement officer and are trying with the help of his family to exploit it for political purposes. They weren’t interested in gun walking when it was happening under the Bush admin.

The gun running (walking=spin term) by US agents is what is of interesting here, surely?

Republicans being political is "dog bites man" stuff.

[Count Bobulescu]

The gun running (walking=spin term) by US agents is what is of interesting here, surely?

Republicans being political is "dog bites man" stuff.
It's the hypocrisy of the R's that is interesting. Everybody is in agreement that gun running/walking was a bad idea under Bush, and a bad idea under Obama, and Holder put a stop to it, long before the R's began their investigation.

[Count Bobulescu]

House files suit against Holder


Numerous lawmakers said this was the first time a Cabinet official had been held in contempt.
The lawsuit asked that:
—The executive privilege claim by Obama be declared invalid.
—Holder’s objection to the House records subpoena be rejected.
—The attorney general produce all records related to the Justice Department’s incorrect assertion in early 2011 that gun-walking did not take place.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-files-suit-against-holder-over-govt-records/2012/08/13/4b432a3e-e563-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_story.html?wpisrc=al_politics_p

[C. Flower]

House files suit against Holder

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-files-suit-against-holder-over-govt-records/2012/08/13/4b432a3e-e563-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_story.html?wpisrc=al_politics_p


Thanks. This, and Sam Smyth's letter to the IT, have made my day.

[C. Flower]

Very much of its genre, and unlikely to mention US gun-running, "Border Security USA" gives a flavour of what the US/Mexican border is like on the ground.

Started with a family having the **** scared out of them by a heavily armed pounce, because the wife's name and birth date are the same as a fugitive.

[Count Bobulescu]

Very much of its genre, and unlikely to mention US gun-running, "Border Security USA" gives a flavour of what the US/Mexican border is like on the ground.

Started with a family having the **** scared out of them by a heavily armed pounce, because the wife's name and birth date are the same as a fugitive.
I’m kinda at a loss for the point your trying to make. Is it to this 2008 show? If so the gun running walking :) wasn't public knowledge at that point, so there would unlikely to be any mention.

http://www.nationalterroralert.com/2008/05/29/border-security-usa-new-reality-based-tv-show-to-debut-on-abc/

[C. Flower]

16 bodies found dumped in a vehicle in the tourist region near Acapulco, in the state of Guerrero.
Over 55,000 people have died in the last 10 years.

It remains to be seen if a change of government from conservative to centrist will make any difference.



Calderon sent extra reinforcements to Guerrero late last year in an effort to curb the violence blighting Acapulco, and the rate of killing fell during the early months of the operation known as "Guerrero Seguro", or Safe Guerrero.

However, recent weeks have seen a rise in violence again in Guerrero as the centrist Enrique Pena Nieto prepares to succeed the conservative Calderon as president in December.

Pena Nieto has pledged to quickly reduce the violence in Mexico. Killings leapt over the last six years during Calderon's army-led efforts to bring the drug gangs to heel.




http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/10/us-mexico-drugs-idUSBRE88914Y20120910

[Count Bobulescu]

This won't help the Republicans lawsuit against Holder.

Federal agents and prosecutors in Phoenix ignored public safety concerns and were primarily responsible for the botched effort to infiltrate weapons-smuggling rings in the operation dubbed “Fast and Furious,” according to a report released Wednesday by the Justice Department’s inspector general.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-ig-critical-of-atf-in-gun-operation/2012/09/19/379daf18-0273-11e2-8102-ebee9c66e190_story.html?hpid=z1


There isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that Attorney General Eric Holder knew about the botched "gun-walking" scandal known as "Fast and Furious" before Congress began asking him about it in early 2011, according to a long-awaited report by the Justice Department's inspector general. However, Holder's subordinate, deputy assistant attorney general Jason Weinstein, is resigning in wake of the report.http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/09/eric-holder-cleared-fast-and-furious-report-14-others-face-discipline/57031/

[C. Flower]

This won't help the Republicans lawsuit against Holder.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-ig-critical-of-atf-in-gun-operation/2012/09/19/379daf18-0273-11e2-8102-ebee9c66e190_story.html?hpid=z1

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/09/eric-holder-cleared-fast-and-furious-report-14-others-face-discipline/57031/

The genius who invented the term "Gun Walking" should be given a Pulitzer Prize.

[Count Bobulescu]

How the Justice Dept. and Eric Holder Failed Each Other.


In the end, the much-heralded, much-maligned Office of the Inspector General's report on the "Fast and Furious" gun scandal tells us what we already know: Attorney General Eric Holder should resign if President Barack Obama wins another term. Even viewing the documents and investigation in a light most favorable to the current head of the Justice Department, even discounting the conspiracy theories offered by the Administration's most ardent critics, the Inspector General's report tells us that Holder ultimately failed to do what he absolutely had to do at Justice when he succeeded caretaker Attorney General Michael Mukasey in early 2009.

The prime directive -- then and now -- was to restore more professionalism to the Department after years of partisan abuse and misuse by the Bush Administration. It's been five years, and many smart people already have forgotten, but the Justice Department under the reign of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales was an outright catastrophe, with episodes including but not limited to the U.S. Attorney scandal. Mukasey began the job of cleaning it up during his brief tenure following Gonzales. But it was Holder's responsibility, when he got the job in January 2009, to ensure that the Department, at a minimum, no longer did anything patently stupid.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/how-eric-holder-and-the-justice-department-failed-each-other/262661/

[C. Flower]

But it was Holder's responsibility, when he got the job in January 2009, to ensure that the Department, at a minimum, no longer did anything patently stupid.

Like getting caught ?

[C. Flower]

Mexicans are now taking a campaign to the US against US complicity with drug industry and with the so-called "drug war" in which political activists and peasants defending their land are being assassinated.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=8867

[C. Flower]

There is an exhibition on in Carlow's boom-time palace of culture the fairly amazing "Visual" arts centre of paintings and other work by Brian MacGuire and other artists -

- "An oasis of horror in a desert of boredom"

http://www.visualcarlow.ie/exhibitions/info/an-oasis-of-horror-in-a-desert-of-boredom

It contains the names and faces of women killed in Mexico in the appalling ongoing massacres involving gun cartels.

It seems to be a comment on the gallery space, too.




http://www.visualcarlow.ie/content/events/Portrait,_Light_BlueE91F1B.jpg