Camillie Paglia on Lady Gaga - Which One Has Lost It ? Or is it Both ?

[C. Flower]

Has Camille Paglia lost her touch and become and old grouch, or is Lady Gaga inauthentic, corporate, lifeless and plagiaristic ?


There is a monumental disconnect between Gaga’s melodramatic self-portrayal as a lonely, rebellious, marginalised artist and the powerful corporate apparatus that bankrolled her makeover and has steamrollered her songs into heavy rotation on radio stations everywhere.

...In place of Madonna’s valiant life force, what we find in Gaga is a disturbing trend towards mutilation and death…

Gaga is in way over her head with her avant-garde pretensions… She wants to have it both ways – to be hip and avant-garde and yet popular and universal, a practitioner of gung-ho “show biz”. Most of her worshippers seem to have had little or no contact with such powerful performers as Tina Turner or Janis Joplin, with their huge personalities and deep wells of passion.


Camille Paglia on Lady Gaga (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/magazine/article389697.ece)

[Sam Lord]

Has Camille Paglia lost her touch and become and old grouch, or is Lady Gaga inauthentic, corporate, lifeless and plagiaristic ?




Camille Paglia on Lady Gaga (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/magazine/article389697.ece)


Truly one of the burning questions of our age....

Actually, I smell a rodent. One related to a beaver ....

[C. Flower]

Truly one of the burning questions of our age....

Actually, I smell a rodent. One related to a beaver ....


No, actually - a bit of a Paglia fan, although not on her very best form in this particular article.


YouTube - Lady Gaga - Alejandro


Now go back to your woman shot bear/husband thread. And leave the beaver dam alone. A wonder of natural evolution and a lesson in social organisation.

[Baron von Biffo]

Not another Harney thread then.

[Sam Lord]

No, actually - a bit of a Paglia fan.

Of course. But you really are diabolically clever ...;)

[C. Flower]

Of course. But you really are diabolically clever ...;)

And you're diabolically off-topic;)

[Sam Lord]

And you're diabolically off-topic;)

Oh, OK. So, I'm going to absolutely stick my neck out and go with Lady Gaga but only because anyone assuming that moniker must have "lost it" as you say.

Can we have a poll?

[TaxProtester]

Id say Cactus was paid to create a thread on Gaga. Thats how modern marketing works these days. I personally find it unethical. Newstalk is doing a lot of it since the depression cut their advertising revenue.

[C. Flower]

Id say Cactus was paid to create a thread on Gaga. Thats how modern marketing works these days. I personally find it unethical. Newstalk is doing a lot of it since the depression cut their advertising revenue.

Yes TaxProtester: LadyGaga is desperate for more publicity in the nether reaches of Irish political fora.

[Summerday Sands]

Id say Cactus was paid to create a thread on Gaga. Thats how modern marketing works these days. I personally find it unethical. Newstalk is doing a lot of it since the depression cut their advertising revenue.

Perhaps Cactus is Lady GaGa:eek::eek::eek:

[C. Flower]

I take it no-one else here is a Paglia fan? I loved the gutsy way she cut through all the horse**** of American feminism. Her "Sexual Personnae" is a fine book.

Camille Paglia Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia)

[Cáthasaigh]

Perhaps Cactus is Lady GaGa:eek::eek::eek:

Well in that case maybe s/he will answer the question that most concerns us in regard to GaGa.

[5intheface]

Well in that case maybe s/he will answer the question that most concerns us in regard to GaGa.

Yip, that's the one, if I drop the hand am I going to come up with fagan and the two muldoons?

[C. Flower]

Yip, that's the one, if I drop the hand am I going to come up with fagan and the two muldoons?

So much for attempting to introduce some cultural debate into this forum. :(

[C. Flower]

Off to the Sibín with you.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Why can't they just settle it the old fashioned way? With a mud-bath...

[C. Flower]

Camille Paglia is a respected and quite elderly American female academic.

Give her a break, Captain Con.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Well why is she debasing herself by writing articles on a come-day go-day celeb issue? Presumably she'll be sounding off somewhere about the portrayal of women in the media and then goes and sets Lady Ga-ga up as a credible commentator in gender issues.

Has it ever occurred to her that Lady Ga-Ga is a good businesswoman who is making millions out of the teenage media industry?

Not looking to start any wars but sometimes this tendency to turn every passing nonsense into a gender issue is counterproductive. I'm aware that gender issues are a major industry these days but sometimes it too is deserving of satire, no?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I notice Tina Turner is recommended as an inspiration to Lady Ga-Ga by Camille Paglia- Tina Turner spent a large part of her career dressed as a showgirl when she wasn't being battered by Ike Turner.

The last part of her stage career was based on 'hasn't she got fine legs for a sixty year old' ...

I just wonder whether Paglia is turning conservative.

[C. Flower]

I notice Tina Turner is recommended as an inspiration to Lady Ga-Ga by Camille Paglia- Tina Turner spent a large part of her career dressed as a showgirl when she wasn't being battered by Ike Turner.

The last part of her stage career was based on 'hasn't she got fine legs for a sixty year old' ...

I just wonder whether Paglia is turning conservative.

At last a sensible response to the OP :)

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Its a sure sign of a once radical turning conservative when they start being dismissive of modern media idols .... 'music were better in mah day' ... that kind of thing... I'm a little surprised at Paglia's touting of Madonna as a touchstone as well as certain aspects of Madonna's early career would almost certainly not fall into the approved category at the Paglia household.

But maybe the Paglia and Ciccone families are neighbours eh?

[MediaBite]

I take it no-one else here is a Paglia fan? I loved the gutsy way she cut through all the horse**** of American feminism. Her "Sexual Personnae" is a fine book.

Camille Paglia Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia)


Never read any of her books - but followed her row with Julie burchill back in the day and thought she made a royal harse of herself. Came over as very nasty. But there again Burchill is mostly insufferable and facile anyway.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Agree Burchill is a seriously nasty piece of work and she is a professional provocateur for money these days.

Can be waspishly amusing when she gets the writing bit between her teeth but she's mostly lazing about in Hove these days ... some fairly unpleasant tales about her frank zionism as well.

Pretty much a south coast version of Rod Liddle at the Times.

[C. Flower]

Agree Burchill is a seriously nasty piece of work and she is a professional provocateur for money these days.

Can be waspishly amusing when she gets the writing bit between her teeth but she's mostly lazing about in Hove these days ... some fairly unpleasant tales about her frank zionism as well.

Pretty much a south coast version of Rod Liddle at the Times.

She sets out to be nasty at some stages but mainly to burst unwonted bubbles.

She sees capitalism as liberating for women ( I would say "for some women").

She loathes conventional feminism but doesn't loathe women and overall presents a powerful rather than victimish picture of femaleness.

She understands icons in a way that depends on her study of ancient history and wrote an "on the nail" chapter on Princess Diana, long before her death, as huntress turned hunted.

Some bits and pieces of Paglia.

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/paglia.html

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

She sets out to be nasty at some stages but mainly to burst unwonted bubbles.

She sees capitalism as liberating for women ( I would say "for some women").

She loathes conventional feminism but doesn't loathe women and overall presents a powerful rather than victimish picture of femaleness.

She understands icons in a way that depends on her study of ancient history and wrote an "on the nail" chapter on Princess Diana, long before her death, as huntress turned hunted.

Some bits and pieces of Paglia.

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/paglia.html

I was referring to Burchill rather than Paglia as I know little enough about Paglia other than some opinion pieces she's written.

Assuming you are talking about Paglia I'm glad she loathes conventional feminism as so do I. It trapped itself in a ghetto of comparison to men decades ago and has been struggling ever since.

I have noticed myself that there is an 'official' version of feminism mostly disseminated via female lecturers in Universities (in the UK anyway) which is absolutely hideous in its attempt to seperate 'approved' literature for feminists and that which-should-be-burned.

I experienced that when a young English graduate asked me what I happened to be reading in a bar/restaurant down on the south coast a couple of years ago.

You have to understand that this young middle class white lady from the shires was dressed in african headress so the warning signs were there.

When I held up my book to show it was 'Nostromo' by Conrad she informed me with a strangely triumphant look that 'Conrad was racist'.

I asked her who told her that as it was obvious she'd never read Conrad and she informed me her lecturer had told the class that. Unapproved author and novel, obviously- naughty me.

I took a look at the book that this young graduate in English was reading and it was a classic of its kind- a translation of an African author's book which was written in very simple English. The book could be read by a 15 year old in a couple of hours- we are taking about Enid Blyton level of difficulty here and it was a Janet and John level of complexity.

What concerned me was the implication that there are lists out there of 'approved' authors and 'unapproved' authors and I know that the same lecturers who draw dividing lines for racist and non-racist books are doing the same thing for books that are approved or cleared of misogyny.

This is extremely worrying from the point of view of literacy in general and the alarming thing is that students seem to be just accepting that some authors are 'verboten' without ever being curious enough to pick up the books and find out.

I think this kind of thing contributes to a form of deliberate ignorance and its is certainly centered around the 'ishoos' of gender and race which seem to now dominate the syllabus in English and foreign literature.

It certainly isn't going to produce another generation of enquiring minds but a generation of odious little creeps with lists of banned authors in their minds.

[antiestablishmentarian]

I was referring to Burchill rather than Paglia as I know little enough about Paglia other than some opinion pieces she's written.

Assuming you are talking about Paglia I'm glad she loathes conventional feminism as so do I. It trapped itself in a ghetto of comparison to men decades ago and has been struggling ever since.

I have noticed myself that there is an 'official' version of feminism mostly disseminated via female lecturers in Universities (in the UK anyway) which is absolutely hideous in its attempt to seperate 'approved' literature for feminists and that which-should-be-burned.

I experienced that when a young English graduate asked me what I happened to be reading in a bar/restaurant down on the south coast a couple of years ago.

You have to understand that this young middle class white lady from the shires was dressed in african headress so the warning signs were there.

When I held up my book to show it was 'Nostromo' by Conrad she informed me with a strangely triumphant look that 'Conrad was racist'.

I asked her who told her that as it was obvious she'd never read Conrad and she informed me her lecturer had told the class that. Unapproved author and novel, obviously- naughty me.

I took a look at the book that this young graduate in English was reading and it was a classic of its kind- a translation of an African author's book which was written in very simple English. The book could be read by a 15 year old in a couple of hours- we are taking about Enid Blyton level of difficulty here and it was a Janet and John level of complexity.

What concerned me was the implication that there are lists out there of 'approved' authors and 'unapproved' authors and I know that the same lecturers who draw dividing lines for racist and non-racist books are doing the same thing for books that are approved or cleared of misogyny.

This is extremely worrying from the point of view of literacy in general and the alarming thing is that students seem to be just accepting that some authors are 'verboten' without ever being curious enough to pick up the books and find out.

I think this kind of thing contributes to a form of deliberate ignorance and its is certainly centered around the 'ishoos' of gender and race which seem to now dominate the syllabus in English and foreign literature.

It certainly isn't going to produce another generation of enquiring minds but a generation of odious little creeps with lists of banned authors in their minds.

I'd have to agree with you there as a contemporary student on your points about college education: I think college education at the moment is more to do with indoctrination and pasing exams than to do with encouraging empirical or critical thoughts. While I might not agree with Joseph Conrad or other authors, reading books written from alternative angles or viewpoints which are opposed to your own is the best way to hone your own beliefs and fully develop yourself.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Its alarming the amount of what I would call 'newspeak'-style propaganda circulating around Universities particularly on courses which should involve critical analysis.

Especially in the area of race and gender- its almost stalinist in its division of good pig/bad pig.

I can't work out whether its overzealous and well-meaning attempts at socially engineering equality-loveliness in a generation or whether its become a cool way of avoiding the grind of teaching and flattering oneself that one is, as a lecturer, socially important.

[C. Flower]

I was referring to Burchill rather than Paglia as I know little enough about Paglia other than some opinion pieces she's written.

Assuming you are talking about Paglia I'm glad she loathes conventional feminism as so do I. It trapped itself in a ghetto of comparison to men decades ago and has been struggling ever since.

I have noticed myself that there is an 'official' version of feminism mostly disseminated via female lecturers in Universities (in the UK anyway) which is absolutely hideous in its attempt to seperate 'approved' literature for feminists and that which-should-be-burned.

I experienced that when a young English graduate asked me what I happened to be reading in a bar/restaurant down on the south coast a couple of years ago.

You have to understand that this young middle class white lady from the shires was dressed in african headress so the warning signs were there.

When I held up my book to show it was 'Nostromo' by Conrad she informed me with a strangely triumphant look that 'Conrad was racist'.

I asked her who told her that as it was obvious she'd never read Conrad and she informed me her lecturer had told the class that. Unapproved author and novel, obviously- naughty me.

I took a look at the book that this young graduate in English was reading and it was a classic of its kind- a translation of an African author's book which was written in very simple English. The book could be read by a 15 year old in a couple of hours- we are taking about Enid Blyton level of difficulty here and it was a Janet and John level of complexity.

What concerned me was the implication that there are lists out there of 'approved' authors and 'unapproved' authors and I know that the same lecturers who draw dividing lines for racist and non-racist books are doing the same thing for books that are approved or cleared of misogyny.

This is extremely worrying from the point of view of literacy in general and the alarming thing is that students seem to be just accepting that some authors are 'verboten' without ever being curious enough to pick up the books and find out.

I think this kind of thing contributes to a form of deliberate ignorance and its is certainly centered around the 'ishoos' of gender and race which seem to now dominate the syllabus in English and foreign literature.

It certainly isn't going to produce another generation of enquiring minds but a generation of odious little creeps with lists of banned authors in their minds.

I expect you might enjoy Paglia, as she shoots from the hip at the same targets.

My own perspective on this stuff is that the issues of gender and race were conciously pushed through the system to combat and replace marxist analysis. The records of the breakup of the US student movement of the 60s and 70s provides forensic on the FBI inflitrating to stoke race and gender issues to split the movement.

The consequences for learning and for the state of college syllabuses is horrendous.

They have now moved down into the school system with the effort to replace a uniform, quality, state system with unionised teaching staff to a mish mash of "Faith Schools" and dubious "Academies". Both Blair and Obama are big into this.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Its alarming the amount of what I would call 'newspeak'-style propaganda circulating around Universities particularly on courses which should involve critical analysis.

Especially in the area of race and gender- its almost stalinist in its division of good pig/bad pig.

I can't work out whether its overzealous and well-meaning attempts at socially engineering equality-loveliness in a generation or whether its become a cool way of avoiding the grind of teaching and flattering oneself that one is, as a lecturer, socially important.

I disagree with you there Con about the Race and Gender: could be different in England but in Ireland there's little emphasis placed on the study of subjects like this and indeed once the crisis hit feminist studies courses were among the first to be slashed at the university I'm attending. I think study of these issues is important because historically western civilisation has viewed society through patriarchal mono-racial goggles and any attempt to change that should be welcomed imho.

[antiestablishmentarian]

I expect you might enjoy Paglia, as she shoots from the hip at the same targets.

My own perspective on this stuff is that the issues of gender and race were conciously pushed through the system to combat and replace marxist analysis. The records of the breakup of the US student movement of the 60s and 70s provides forensic on the FBI inflitrating to stoke race and gender issues to split the movement.

The consequences for learning and for the state of college syllabuses is horrendous.

They have now moved down into the school system with the effort to replace a uniform, quality, state system with unionised teaching staff to a mish mash of "Faith Schools" and dubious "Academies". Both Blair and Obama are big into this.
Good points, though i think the study of race and gender is important for Marxists as a corollary to a class analysis of society

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I disagree with you there Con about the Race and Gender: could be different in England but in Ireland there's little emphasis placed on the study of subjects like this and indeed once the crisis hit feminist studies courses were among the first to be slashed at the university I'm attending. I think study of these issues is important because historically western civilisation has viewed society through patriarchal mono-racial goggles and any attempt to change that should be welcomed imho.

Can this not be done on the course by saying ' of course we have to be aware that this view is coloured by the social mores of the time'?

Rather than rewriting the syllabus for approved newspeak?

[C. Flower]

Good points, though i think the study of race and gender is important for Marxists as a corollary to a class analysis of society

Class analysis has been pushed onto the back foot. I see some people are afraid to use the word these days :confused:

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I am just concerned that students are being taught to reject anything from history (including classical history) because it doesn't discuss gender or race issues.

For example how can one study politics in any depth if Greek 'demos' is rejected as a 'patriarchal' society because women then couldn't vote?

It doesn't mean women weren't influential. Similarly one could reject study of Rome under Caesar or Pompey because women weren't members of the senate.

Presumably classicists aren't so stupid as to imply that these areas are not worthy of study because of these facts but what concerns me in the example of the young lady I met was that she plainly implied that anybody who read Conrad was condoning racism.

Thats actually a form of censorship and she is a victim of academic fascism.

[antiestablishmentarian]

I am just concerned that students are being taught to reject anything from history (including classical history) because it doesn't discuss gender or race issues.

For example how can one study politics in any depth if Greek 'demos' is rejected as a 'patriarchal' society because women then couldn't vote?

It doesn't mean women weren't influential. Similarly one could reject study of Rome under Caesar or Pompey because women weren't members of the senate.

Presumably classicists aren't so stupid as to imply that these areas are not worthy of study because of these facts but what concerns me in the example of the young lady I met was that she plainly implied that anybody who read Conrad was condoning racism.

Thats actually a form of censorship and she is a victim of academic fascism.

I don't think the position is to censor thought: its merely to look at things from a different angle. If a lecturer is silly enough to tell their students not to read certain things then thats their prerogative but accepted history needs to be challenged from different perspectives, especially that of class.

[C. Flower]

I am just concerned that students are being taught to reject anything from history (including classical history) because it doesn't discuss gender or race issues.

For example how can one study politics in any depth if Greek 'demos' is rejected as a 'patriarchal' society because women then couldn't vote?

It doesn't mean women weren't influential. Similarly one could reject study of Rome under Caesar or Pompey because women weren't members of the senate.

Presumably classicists aren't so stupid as to imply that these areas are not worthy of study because of these facts but what concerns me in the example of the young lady I met was that she plainly implied that anybody who read Conrad was condoning racism.

Thats actually a form of censorship and she is a victim of academic fascism.

Agree. You could write of most of literature as racist, by modern standards.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Thats the worrying bit. Ive no objection at all to considering critical analysis from any angle you like and if a student comes up with a new angle there's your PhD student forming ...

But when students are intrepreting authors as 'good' or 'bad' depending on what their lecturer's view is and not even checking whether they agree then the implication is that there is an information transfer going on but one which doesn't allow for critical analysis.

Its the terminology I'm hearing from graduates as well that indicates they are being judgemental without the analysis- thats alarming to say the least.