Labour's Tax Policies

[TaxProtester]

Since Labour is likely to form the next government, its important to know whats coming down the pike in terms of taxes. If anyone has any insight into what a Labour government will do on taxation, please post it here.

Today, Joan Burton was on Newstalks Sean Moncrieff. She seemed to acknowledge that people who are working for low incomes shouldnt be taxed too much. This gets my approval, obviously. However, I'll believe it when I see it. The current situation where a single person earning less than 18k pays no income tax, must be continued, in order for there to be an incentive to work.

She also mentioned that she approved of steps taken in France to reduce VAT on restaurants. If this can bring down the cost of eating out, then it sounds like a reasonable idea.

[Lapsedmethodist]

Let's have local taxes. My chateau in France attracts two taxes. And lets have water charges as well. The free ride was over years ago ; that's why we're in the merde now.

[concernedparent]

I will happily pay water charges when I get a commodity I can drink.

At the moment, our water supply courtesy of our local county council, is undrinkable with the taste, varying from mud to chlorine, and on many mornings, the shower smells like a swimming pool.

A friend of mine on the same council supply, was able to fill a glass with water and let it sit for a day to enable the dirt to decant to the bottom of the glass. The council told her it was perfectly drinkable.

Its nothing in this area to have brown tinted water coming from your tap either.:eek:

[TaxProtester]

The thread is about Labours tax plans.

[Fraxinus]

I will happily pay water charges when I get a commodity I can drink.

At the moment, our water supply courtesy of our local county council, is undrinkable with the taste, varying from mud to chlorine, and on many mornings, the shower smells like a swimming pool.

A friend of mine on the same council supply, was able to fill a glass with water and let it sit for a day to enable the dirt to decant to the bottom of the glass. The council told her it was perfectly drinkable.

Its nothing in this area to have brown tinted water coming from your tap either.:eek:

Try drawing your drinking water from a well with a bucket as your water tank, feeding off the local water scheme, in the attic half fills with a peaty sludge.

[TaxProtester]

Try drawing your drinking water from a well with a bucket as your water tank, feeding off the local water scheme, in the attic half fills with a peaty sludge.Can you start a new thread on Municipal Water Quality, as I have something to say on that myself.

[Fraxinus]

Can you start a new thread on Municipal Water Quality, as I have something to say on that myself.

Couldn't help the off topic rant. I'll put it in environment.

[TaxProtester]

Labours Alex White on Newstalk just now, saying that we are going to have to have "a decent level of tax in order to have the public services we want".

These kind of statements give a clue as to what the Labour party socialists are intending for this country when they get into power. The socialist fools seem to believe that tax rises will cure the problems of this economy, when the reality is that more taxes will disincentivise the lower paid from working and getting off welfare.

Dont expect to see any reduction in unemployment under a new Labour government. Or any improvment in the economy or the country. It will be a orgy of greed from public sector millionaires and welfare monkeys, feasting on the taxes gouged out of the working citizen.

[PES activist]

This is what Joan Burton TD had to say about Labour's tax plans in the context of the 2010 pre-budget programme. Link here (http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/1259924647108469.html).


Tax Reform

“On taxation, our proposals emphasise the need to deliver on tax justice, putting a stop to the plethora of reliefs and loopholes that have dominated tax planning for wealthy people.

“In the tax debate, the marginal rate of tax for high earners has been allowed to dominate discussion rather than the average or effective rate of tax paid. In Ireland, one critical factor is the massive scope for high earners to reduce their tax bill to such an extent that they pay less tax than those on average incomes.

“While Fianna Fáil has promised to phase out many tax shelters, they still dominate our tax system. We propose that budget 2010 should see these shelters severely curtailed.

“I do not believe that high marginal income tax rates are conducive to growth and recovery. We need to rebuild the tax base in as fair a way as possible. Everyone contributes their fair share and, in that way, moderate taxation rates can be preserved.

“The Labour Party proposes to reform the tax system so that we move to a minimum effective tax rate for single earners earning over €100,000 – or couples earning over €200,000.

“Our programme aims to tackle the excessive claiming of deductions which reduces the effective rate of tax paid by many high earners. In effect, our proposals, if implemented, this would put a floor under the level of tax shelters a person can use.

[TaxProtester]

So Labour will get rid of the deductions and loopholes. Fair enough. But they are refusing to say what they will do on income tax rates, bands and property tax. They are concealing their plans from the voter. This line worries me:

We need to rebuild the tax base in as fair a way as possible. Everyone contributes their fair share"Rebuilding the tax base" means increasing taxes and its clear she means including low paid people here, when she says "Everyone contributes".

The working poor will have their taxes raised in Decembers budget and Labour will keep those taxes in place. That is disgusting. There will be no incentive for anyone to get off welfare other than the whim of the local welfare officer deciding not to approve the application. Favoured groups like Nigerians will be continue to be granted massive amounts of welfare while irish people will be forced to pay tax out of their meagre wages.

Labour are not on the side of working irish people. Dont be fooled.

[Baron von Biffo]

Since Labour is likely to form the next government, its important to know whats coming down the pike in terms of taxes.

Why? Surely the only priority for Lab is ABFF.


She also mentioned that she approved of steps taken in France to reduce VAT on restaurants. If this can bring down the cost of eating out, then it sounds like a reasonable idea.

The last time we reduced VAT on restaurants the owners trousered the saving rather than passing it on to customers.

[C. Flower]

This is what Joan Burton TD had to say about Labour's tax plans in the context of the 2010 pre-budget programme. Link here (http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/1259924647108469.html).

Thanks. That's useful information.

What is your personal and Party view on land taxes ?

[TaxProtester]

Why? Surely the only priority for Lab is ABFF.ABFF is a terrible way to be thinking. You might as well choose policies by throwing darts at a dartboard. We dont want to get out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Voters need to know EXACTLY what Labour are intending to do when they get elected. Are they going to make work financially rewarding or are they going to make it easier to stay on welfare? Are they going to continue to allow ghettos of non-irish continue to receive massive welfare payments, off the back of the working irish.

Labour have to tell us before the election, what theyre going to do for low income irish workers. Tax them in order to pay welfare to the non-nationals?

[Mick Tully]

I was under the impression that the Labour Party had no policies at all and that they were waiting for whatever partner they would get after the next election. whether it is FG or FF
and don''t be under any illusion that Gilmore won't go either way. Remember Spring and all the times he said they would not go into Government with FF.

[Baron von Biffo]

ABFF is a terrible way to be thinking. You might as well choose policies by throwing darts at a dartboard. We dont want to get out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Agreed. It's a terrible indictment of our political culture that the whole ABFF thing has assumed such a huge significance.

[C. Flower]

So Labour will get rid of the deductions and loopholes. Fair enough. But they are refusing to say what they will do on income tax rates, bands and property tax. They are concealing their plans from the voter. This line worries me:
"Rebuilding the tax base" means increasing taxes and its clear she means including low paid people here, when she says "Everyone contributes".

The working poor will have their taxes raised in Decembers budget and Labour will keep those taxes in place. That is disgusting. There will be no incentive for anyone to get off welfare other than the whim of the local welfare officer deciding not to approve the application. Favoured groups like Nigerians will be continue to be granted massive amounts of welfare while irish people will be forced to pay tax out of their meagre wages.

Labour are not on the side of working irish people. Dont be fooled.


Tax on assets is vital. If all the tax is on goods and income, it depresses the economy and penalises work and commerce as the expense of fixed assets.
The fact that land is not taxed in Ireland contributed to the bubble and drew investment away from production.

[TaxProtester]

Tax on assets is vital. If all the tax is on goods and income, it depresses the economy and penalises work and commerce as the expense of fixed assets.
The fact that land is not taxed in Ireland contributed to the bubble and drew investment away from production.What are Labours policies in this area?

If a low income worker sets aside money for a rainy day rather than sponge off the state, he will have an asset. You seem to believe that a portion of that asset should be taxed off him. Thats wrong. And it proves lefties are not on the side of low income workers.

I know unemployed people who are living off less than the dole but still have to pay DIRT tax. The money is then routed to the bank accounts of public sector millionaires for their enjoyment. Its morally repugnant.

[antiestablishmentarian]

What are Labours policies in this area?

If a low income worker sets aside money for a rainy day rather than sponge off the state, he will have an asset. You seem to believe that a portion of that asset should be taxed off him. Thats wrong. And it proves lefties are not on the side of low income workers.

I know unemployed people who are living off less than the dole but still have to pay DIRT tax. The money is then routed to the bank accounts of public sector millionaires for their enjoyment. Its morally repugnant.

CFlower talked about fixed assets such as land: thats very different from penalising low-income workers with a tax on savings. I'm sure though that she agrees that anyone with savings over €100,000 should be forced to pay a tax on such an asset, and that is unlikely to include any low paid workers or indeed that vast majority of public sector workers.

[PES activist]

There's quite a bit for me to try to deal with here and I'm no expert on tax policy, but I will try and answer some of the questions that have been put to me. It's important to note that these are my own views and, as such, do not necessarily represent the views of the Labour Party. That said, here we go ...

It is very difficult for the Labour Party to set out the precise details of our tax plans, on income for example, at this stage in a Dáil. There are at least one, possibly two budgets to go between now and a General Election and it would be foolish for us to attempt to predict what the fiscal situation would be post the next GE.

Instead, what Joan Burton has done is set out the broad princples of what a Labour Finance Minister would do on tax in the next Dáil. These are broadly as follows:

1. A fair tax system. The amount of tax on income (in all its guises) that people pay should be broadly progressive and related to people's ablity to pay. It is completely unacceptable that the marginal rate of tax on income in Ireland actually reduces the more you earn above middle incomes. This is why Labour will close the loopholes and non-resident arrangements that enable the very rich (and many others besides) to reduce their marginal rates of tax below that paid by ordinary PAYE workers.

2. Labour opposes taxes on the family home and will not support a return to rates or any other system of property taxes that loads the burden onto those on modest and middle incomes who have borne the brunt of the govermnent's tax hikes and public spending cutbacks.

3. Labour strongly believes that the crisis in the State's finances at the moment turns crucially on the questions of (a) bank bail outs and their impact on the cost of public borrowing, and (b) the costs of unemployment.

Labour in power will seek to close Anglo Irish in as quickly and aggressive a manner as is consistent with an orderly wind down of this zombie bank. As part of this we will negotiate a significant reduction in the state's liabilities to Anglo bondholders. The effect of this will be to relieve taxpayers of the more extreme elements of the financial commitment that FF have landed us all with, a commitment incidentally that Labour was the only party to oppose in Dáil Éireann when it was introduced. In addition, this will relieve pressure on the costs of international borrowing for the state ... a currently unsustainable cost that is borne directly by the state's finances/taxpayers.

Unemployment directly costs the State, in lost tax revenue and social welfare payments alone, about €20,000 per annum per registered unemployed person. With over 450,000 people on the live register this amounts to a staggering €9 billion per year.

FF maintain that unemployment will be reduced only AFTER the economy recovers. Labour argues that reducing unemployment NOW is the key to economic recovery. To this end we propose the establishment of a Strategic Investment Bank (details here (http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/investinginfuture.pdf)) which will have the express purpose of putting people back to productive work. The SIB, funded initially out of the National Pensions Reserve Fund, will be the key to correcting the current unsustainable imbalance in our fiscal position and reducing the pressure for tax hikes and service cutbacks on people on modest and middle incomes.

So, in summary, a fairer, more progressive tax system, where everyone makes a contribution commensurate with their income/assets, coupled with cutting zombie banks loose and driving down unemployment will help us to correct the current unsustainable imbalances in the public finances.

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Pat Rabitte said yesterday he would get rid of the "universal social charge". This is great news because it shows theres at least one person on the left who understands that taxes hurt low income people not help them.

Pat Rabitte is the only person on the left who I would describe as intelligent.

[Griska]

Pat Rabitte said yesterday he would get rid of the "universal social charge". This is great news because it shows theres at least one person on the left who understands that taxes hurt low income people not help them.

Pat Rabitte is the only person on the left who I would describe as intelligent.

The USC is a horribly unfair tax. Equitable taxation, on the other hand, would be a fair start in turning this society around.
The only alternative is to cut services which low earners rely on.

[Apjp]

Let's have local taxes. My chateau in France attracts two taxes. And lets have water charges as well. The free ride was over years ago ; that's why we're in the merde now.

We are an island SURROUNDED BY WATER!! That is why we should not need water tax!! Its alright for Spain where ye get two days of heavy rain a year, or France where it is mostly warmer anyways, or England/Germany where a big population can handle one more regressive tax! Ireland is a tiny country with endless rivers and water access. We need to harvest our water more. Im talking instead of putting 500 million euros into water meters, fiux the pipes in the greater Dublin area that are 120 plus years old and leaking millions of litres every day! And we should be subsidizing rainwater harvesting schemes for people with small grants to get the middle class, and some of the working class, to harvest the rainwater that comes down on top of us maybe 300 days a year!!! Not to mention the fact that wave energy is totally unexploited in this country..we need to invest in all our water resources.

[Apjp]

This is what Joan Burton TD had to say about Labour's tax plans in the context of the 2010 pre-budget programme. Link here (http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/1259924647108469.html).

I am proposing a 51.5% income tax for submission to my party for all of those individuals earning over 70'000 euros and a 48% tax for families earning 80'000 euros plus(instead of 21% each it would be a couple's unilateral tax as such). I think we need to get real. 48% will not earn enough revenue on its own to close enough of the sovereign 18.7 billion euro debt and nor will it fund our public services sufficiently. Right now, acccording to the esri, tasc etc there is 4 billion euros we can earn in income tax alone off of high earners. Once again this is labour copping out-how is someone earning 90k and above, 80k and above or 70 k and a bove not a high earner?? This kind of taxation I want to see has worked in similrly sized countries such as denmark for years. It will work here whenever it is implemented.

[Apjp]

CFlower talked about fixed assets such as land: thats very different from penalising low-income workers with a tax on savings. I'm sure though that she agrees that anyone with savings over €100,000 should be forced to pay a tax on such an asset, and that is unlikely to include any low paid workers or indeed that vast majority of public sector workers.

There might have been previously some scope for it anti. But ask yourself, how many despoitors of 100k plus do you think would be stupid enough to leave that much money in Irish banks?? I would be very surprised if such a tax could even earn a few million especially as if it were put on property-most properties are in negative equity. And im talking all sorts not just ordinary houses. Plus people can have savings of less than a hundred k and still have bought a house of 300-500k. It doesnt mean that they can afford such a property tax on a high valued asset, that really is actually now worth a lot less. What this means is that previously valuable houses are obv. now worthless and there will soon be not many taxable sites valued above 100k. Effectively if such a tax were implemented commercially it could put a lot of hotels and bars out of business not to mention the fact that we own about a fifth of commercial property in nama-at least. so you could end up even taxing yourself in that case. these things are interesting but we must be careful not to tax the arse out of everything. For instance the notion that we could go above 15% for corporation tax is laughable. That should be the highest rate to ensure income determined sustaianble revenue based on what businesses earn. also the closing of double irish would mean that corporation tax at 15% and kept there for a few years could be very sustaianable. Remember that last year this tax was 700 million euro more than expected. There is revenue in it, but like i said if ye tax the arse out of it it will kill business. personally Id lower vat to 18%, freeze local rates, freeze motor tax, abolish the tourist tax, have no water charges on small businesses earning below 500k, and abolish tolls on lorries. All of these things combined would consolidate much present reveune, improve VAT take through increased spending and sales, and allow for a higher corporation tax without damaging business. There is a balance to all these things I hope you'll admit.

[Apjp]

Pat Rabitte said yesterday he would get rid of the "universal social charge". This is great news because it shows theres at least one person on the left who understands that taxes hurt low income people not help them.

Pat Rabitte is the only person on the left who I would describe as intelligent.

hes right but he hasnt been left in a long time! i think its auld pat just using the noodle for once..still hed have himself on 120k and expenses as well as a merc so there ye go..universal is just newspeak for regressive anyways!

[ang]

It would now seem that the Labour Party have decided to "stick with" the universal social charge and have instead dropped their proposed policy of a 48% tax rate on individual earning over 100.000:-


Sinn Féin Vice President Mary Lou McDonald has accused the Labour Party of flip flopping on its taxation policy on the eve of the general election after the party dropped its proposal to introduce a new 48% tax on individual earnings over €100,000.

Ms McDonald said it is obvious that negotiations between Fine Gael and Labour on a programme for Government had already began with Labour dropping a progressive taxation proposal in favour of the regressive Universal Social Charge.

She said:

“The Labour Party is clearly dropping this policy to suit Fine Gael in its bid to prop up a yet another conservative led Government.

“In dropping its proposal to introduce the a progressive new 48% tax on earnings over individual €100,000 the Labour Party is confirming its support for the regressive Universal Social Charge which indiscriminately targets the lowest earners in Irish society.

“If this is the Labour Party in opposition then god help us if they get into Government.”

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/19996

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Labour promising NOT to increase taxes for middle and lower income. She didnt say anything about the USC.

a promise that Labour will not be increasing tax rates for individuals earning less than €100,000.

Speaking to the Sunday Independent, Ms Burton slammed the current scenario in which she said Ireland was now such a high-tax country that hundreds of thousands of ordinary PAYE workers were paying rates of tax that would be "more appropriate for the super-rich''.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-paye-workers-paying-superrich-tax-rate-claims-burton-2516826.html

[donna33]

Pat Rabitte said yesterday he would get rid of the "universal social charge". This is great news because it shows theres at least one person on the left who understands that taxes hurt low income people not help them.

Pat Rabitte is the only person on the left who I would describe as intelligent.

the labour party have said they would not change anything in the budget maybe im geting mixed signals