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LeftAtTheCross
09-09-2010, 01:29 PM
Is it perhaps the case that Labour DL has moved so far to the right that there's a gap where the Labour Party used to be ?

Where did Labour used to be?

In the 70s there was a tinge of socialism from Labour for sure. Long gone now though. The CedarLounge posted their 1980 Programme a few months ago, it's an interesting read to see how they have moved rightwards since then. They're not alone obviously, the world has moved rightwards in the intervening generation and social democracy just ain't what it used to be.

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/03/29/left-archive-labour-the-party-programme-irish-labour-party-conference-1980/

On your question of whether there's a "gap"?

Well at one level yes there is, but there always has been and it's sort of not really the point. The question of whether social democracy has a future is one thing, as it has more or less been abandoned by the Labour Party, and in that sense some of the strands of that politics might be picked up by new groups such as Direct Democracy Ireland, Is Feidir Linn etc. So yes, there's a gap and an opportunity for Labour to be outflanked in electoral terms, if those new groups succeed in moving discussion in society and the media in any way leftwards.

I don't think there's a new gap that necessarily opens up electoral prospects for the Left parties, whether that the Workers' Party, Socialist Party or People before Profit Alliance. If anything I think Labour and the Left (not the same thing) might feed off each other in a positive sense, if broad success for Labour translates into a leftwards shift in "the dominant narrative in society", i.e. the stuff the chattering classes allow onto the airwaves.

Anyhow I'm realising the style of politicalworld is to keep it short and sweet, so I'll stop here, having already overextended the attention span of you youngsters :)

antiestablishmentarian
09-09-2010, 01:32 PM
Where did Labour used to be?

In the 70s there was a tinge of socialism from Labour for sure. Long gone now though. The CedarLounge posted their 1980 Programme a few months ago, it's an interesting read to see how they have moved rightwards since then. They're not alone obviously, the world has moved rightwards in the intervening generation and social democracy just ain't what it used to be.

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/03/29/left-archive-labour-the-party-programme-irish-labour-party-conference-1980/

On your question of whether there's a "gap"?

Well at one level yes there is, but there always has been and it's sort of not really the point. The question of whether social democracy has a future is one thing, as it has more or less been abandoned by the Labour Party, and in that sense some of the strands of that politics might be picked up by new groups such as Direct Democracy Ireland, Is Feidir Linn etc. So yes, there's a gap and an opportunity for Labour to be outflanked in electoral terms, if those new groups succeed in moving discussion in society and the media in any way leftwards.

I don't think there's a new gap that necessarily opens up electoral prospects for the Left parties, whether that the Workers' Party, Socialist Party or People before Profit Alliance. If anything I think Labour and the Left (not the same thing) might feed off each other in a positive sense, if broad success for Labour translates into a leftwards shift in "the dominant narrative in society", i.e. the stuff the chattering classes allow onto the airwaves.

Anyhow I'm realising the style of politicalworld is to keep it short and sweet, so I'll stop here, having already overextended the attention span of you youngsters :)
The difference is Labour formerly had a working class base of activists and that has disappeared: its reflected in the lack of support by the leadership for public sector workers and for union action to defend pay and conditions. I know Labour's leadership was rotten too in the past but the existence of a working class base served to keepthem in line to an extent.

LeftAtTheCross
09-09-2010, 01:41 PM
The difference is Labour formerly had a working class base of activists and that has disappeared: its reflected in the lack of support by the leadership for public sector workers and for union action to defend pay and conditions. I know Labour's leadership was rotten too in the past but the existence of a working class base served to keepthem in line to an extent.

The working class has always voted more FF than Labour. That's one thing which is changing now. I take your point about the timidity of social democracy and the union movement, worldwide it has been on the back foot for a generation since the Tatcher / Reagan era. On the working class, depending on how you categorise it, it's arguable that the social stratification that has taken place in the last generation has reduced the importance in electoral terms of "the working class base". I'm not looking to argue that with you by the way, just saying it's a consideration for the NewLabour focus-group approach that has infected politics.

Cáthasaigh
09-09-2010, 01:41 PM
The difference is Labour formerly had a working class base of activists and that has disappeared: its reflected in the lack of support by the leadership for public sector workers and for union action to defend pay and conditions. I know Labour's leadership was rotten too in the past but the existence of a working class base served to keepthem in line to an extent.

Labour are now run by the Stickies who were a thoroughly corrupted, organised crime gang. Labour in Ireland is probably more corrupt than Labour in Britain.

LeftAtTheCross
09-09-2010, 01:42 PM
Labour are now run by the Stickies who were a thoroughly corrupted, organised crime gang. Labour in Ireland is probably more corrupt than Labour in Britain.

Cáthasaigh, my first and last word to you is "*****".

LeftAtTheCross
09-09-2010, 01:44 PM
Cáthasaigh, my first and last word to you is "*****".

For some reason the word "t r o l l" didn't appear. Is there automatic censorship happening here?

Cáthasaigh
09-09-2010, 01:48 PM
Cáthasaigh, my first and last word to you is "*****".

Yeah that's much simpler than debating the issue. Labour is now infested with those who conspired with the state to liquidate Seamus Costello and oversaw the largest organised crime operation in the country before media focus prompted the formation of Democratic Left. It's historical fact no matter how much you want to run away from it or delude the electorate about it.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 02:19 PM
Yeah that's much simpler than debating the issue. Labour is now infested with those who conspired with the state to liquidate Seamus Costello and oversaw the largest organised crime operation in the country before media focus prompted the formation of Democratic Left. It's historical fact no matter how much you want to run away from it or delude the electorate about it.

+1. And let's not forget how the Workers Party protected their 'fundraising contractees' the Dunne family as they were introducing heroin to Dublin's streets in the early '80s. The Ned Stapleton cumann of the WP in RTÉ worked overtime to portray community-based resistance to the heroin scourge in Dublin's working-class communities as set up by 'subversives' (sticky-speak of the time for Shinners). This conveniently elided the facts on the ground that community campaigners against heroin were under pervasive violent threat by the Dunnes and their associates, and also the Official IRA. This is what drove good people to seek the 'protection' of the Provisional IRA. This was the organisation and milieu that gave Gilmore, Rabbitte, Kathleen Lynch, Liz 'Lady Wickow' McManus, and the rest of that ilk their start in electoral politics. You'll never hear this lot (or Eoghan Harris either) atone for what happened on their watch nearly thirty years ago.

The Workers Party - heroin in Ireland's fairy godmother. Read The Lost Revolution by Brian Hanley and Scott Millar for the full details of the sordid relationship between skag and stickism.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 02:26 PM
For some reason the word "t r o l l" didn't appear. Is there automatic censorship happening here?

There is. Most of the words asterisked are words which would cause us problems with workplace filters. I added "*****" in as it threatened to become the most overused epithet on the site :) We have a ball not man rule.

TaxProtester
09-09-2010, 02:26 PM
+1. And let's not forget how the Workers Party protected their 'fundraising contractees' the Dunne family as they were introducing heroin to Dublin's streets in the early '80s. The Ned Stapleton cumann of the WP in RTÉ worked overtime to portray community-based resistance to the heroin scourge in Dublin's working-class communities as set up by 'subversives' (sticky-speak of the time for Shinners). This conveniently elided the facts on the ground that community campaigners against heroin were under pervasive violent threat by the Dunnes and their associates, and also the Official IRA. This is what drove good people to seek the 'protection' of the Provisional IRA. This was the organisation and milieu that gave Gilmore, Rabbitte, Kathleen Lynch, Liz 'Lady Wickow' McManus, and the rest of that ilk their start in electoral politics. You'll never hear this lot (or Eoghan Harris either) atone for what happened on their watch nearly thirty years ago.

The Workers Party - heroin in Ireland's fairy godmother. Read The Lost Revolution by Brian Hanley and Scott Millar for the full details of the sordid relationship between skag and stickism.That deserves its own thread. Sounds pretty interesting.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 02:29 PM
That deserves its own thread. Sounds pretty interesting.

If you do a search for Dunne you'll find some discussion on this.

Cáthasaigh
09-09-2010, 02:31 PM
The Stickie/state collusion in the murder of Seamus Costello was also something that many present members of Labour would have been party to. Costello represented the biggest single challenge to the state since the civil war and the so-called socialists in the sticky hierarchy sold their souls to the gombín to help eliminate him.

YouTube - Séamus Ó Coisdealbha agus an IRSP

Griska
09-09-2010, 02:34 PM
+1. And let's not forget how the Workers Party protected their 'fundraising contractees' the Dunne family as they were introducing heroin to Dublin's streets in the early '80s. The Ned Stapleton cumann of the WP in RTÉ worked overtime to portray community-based resistance to the heroin scourge in Dublin's working-class communities as set up by 'subversives' (sticky-speak of the time for Shinners). This conveniently elided the facts on the ground that community campaigners against heroin were under pervasive violent threat by the Dunnes and their associates, and also the Official IRA. This is what drove good people to seek the 'protection' of the Provisional IRA. This was the organisation and milieu that gave Gilmore, Rabbitte, Kathleen Lynch, Liz 'Lady Wickow' McManus, and the rest of that ilk their start in electoral politics. You'll never hear this lot (or Eoghan Harris either) atone for what happened on their watch nearly thirty years ago.

The Workers Party - heroin in Ireland's fairy godmother. Read The Lost Revolution by Brian Hanley and Scott Millar for the full details of the sordid relationship between skag and stickism.
I have read the book and can't help wonder if you have done no more than skim through it with preconcieved opinions, because I think you'll find that while there were people involved in both OIRA activities and organised crime, they were not acting on behalf of the WP or OIRA. Agreed some proceeds ended up in Gardener Place, but these activities certainly weren't sanctioned.

LeftAtTheCross
09-09-2010, 02:36 PM
People, please. The economy is a mess, the government attack on working people is accelerating and you're happy sitting here slinging mud at people for stuff that happened in the distant past?

Look forwards, not backwards. Fight new fights, not old ones.

The Left is divided enough without this type of argument.

Cáthasaigh
09-09-2010, 02:43 PM
People, please. The economy is a mess, the government attack on working people is accelerating and you're happy sitting here slinging mud at people for stuff that happened in the distant past?

Look forwards, not backwards. Fight new fights, not old ones.

The Left is divided enough without this type of argument.

Yes folks, look the other way and forget about all the bad stuff.....sounds like a Fianna Fáil election slogan. Why would that be I wonder; could it be because Labour are cut from the same gombín cloth as Fianna Fáil?

Wolves in sheep's clothing.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 02:53 PM
I have read the book and can't help wonder if you have done no more than skim through it with preconcieved opinions, because I think you'll find that while there were people involved in both OIRA activities and organised crime, they were not acting on behalf of the WP or OIRA. Agreed some proceeds ended up in Gardener Place, but these activities certainly weren't sanctioned.

Weren't sanctioned??? It's you who skim-read the book! Clearly, the existence of 'Group B' and their fund-raising activities were embarrassing the WP, so they sub-contracted many bank, post office and cash-in-transit robberies to criminal gangs like the Dunnes, so as to better hide their own hand in these necessary 'jobs', and this strategy had tacit official sanction. Not to mention Repsol and currency forgery (is there still a warrant outstanding for Kathleen Lynch's brother-in-law? He lived in East Germany for most of the 1980s, conveniently beyond the Garda's reach, for some reason. And let's not mention Mr. Garland or 'superdollars' either, eh?). The WP were up to their necks in dirty dealing with Dublin's criminal underworld, and when the Dunnes became the centre of media attention in the early '80s when they were building their heroin empire, the WP and the OIRA moved to protect their 'assets' for fear of what might be said at anti-heroin community meetings, or in open court. Hence all the 'bait-and-switch' smear stories targeting community campaigns against heroin, and the more sinister violent stuff they had to endure. It's all there in Hanly's and Millar's book, clear as day.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 02:57 PM
People, please. The economy is a mess, the government attack on working people is accelerating and you're happy sitting here slinging mud at people for stuff that happened in the distant past?

Look forwards, not backwards. Fight new fights, not old ones.

The Left is divided enough without this type of argument.

What people did yesterday is a reliable indicator of what they may do the day after tomorrow. Wise up, or you'll get taken in by Machiavellian re-treads masquerading as some kind of 'new departure'.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 02:58 PM
I've read the "Lost Revolution" - and it presents a far more complex and mixed picture of the Workers' Party than comes through here.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 03:08 PM
I've read the "Lost Revolution" - and it presents a far more complex and mixed picture of the Workers' Party than comes through here.

Sure, but somehow what you say can be construed as saying that 'The sticks were Irish heroin-dealing's godmother' is not true. The WP were many things, some progressive (supporting divorce and abortion rights), some more not-so-progressive (using and then protecting organised criminal gangs, smearing political opponents via the RTÉ Ned Stapleton 'secret' cumann, supporting polluting industries like Raybestos against the wishes of communities like Ringaskiddy who had the toxic waste by-products dumped on them. I could go on, you know). The overall record of the WP is something of a curate's egg. And a rather bad curate's egg at that.

Cáthasaigh
09-09-2010, 03:15 PM
The sticks were Irish heroin-dealing's godmother

This is an interesting concept considering the long standing suggestion that British intelligence played a part in the introduction of heroin into Dublin and the links between the stickies and Brit intelligence.

antiestablishmentarian
09-09-2010, 03:33 PM
The working class has always voted more FF than Labour. That's one thing which is changing now. I take your point about the timidity of social democracy and the union movement, worldwide it has been on the back foot for a generation since the Tatcher / Reagan era. On the working class, depending on how you categorise it, it's arguable that the social stratification that has taken place in the last generation has reduced the importance in electoral terms of "the working class base". I'm not looking to argue that with you by the way, just saying it's a consideration for the NewLabour focus-group approach that has infected politics.

There were historical ties between the organised working class and the old Labour Party (pre-Spring) which made that party a party of the working class more than FF, despite the voting patterns. One of the main reasons for Labour's degeneration has been fear of taking an independent line and tying themselves hand and foot to whichever of the big 2 seems more likely to throw them the bone of coalition.

Griska
09-09-2010, 04:36 PM
Weren't sanctioned??? It's you who skim-read the book! Clearly, the existence of 'Group B' and their fund-raising activities were embarrassing the WP, so they sub-contracted many bank, post office and cash-in-transit robberies to criminal gangs like the Dunnes, so as to better hide their own hand in these necessary 'jobs', and this strategy had tacit official sanction. Not to mention Repsol and currency forgery (is there still a warrant outstanding for Kathleen Lynch's brother-in-law? He lived in East Germany for most of the 1980s, conveniently beyond the Garda's reach, for some reason. And let's not mention Mr. Garland or 'superdollars' either, eh?). The WP were up to their necks in dirty dealing with Dublin's criminal underworld, and when the Dunnes became the centre of media attention in the early '80s when they were building their heroin empire, the WP and the OIRA moved to protect their 'assets' for fear of what might be said at anti-heroin community meetings, or in open court. Hence all the 'bait-and-switch' smear stories targeting community campaigns against heroin, and the more sinister violent stuff they had to endure. It's all there in Hanly's and Millar's book, clear as day.
The Repsol affair and Garland's Korean adventure are not the issue here. And I have already said that certain people had links to both criminal gangs and OIRA. Armed robberies were certainly carried out, as were rackets. The fact that some of these gangs were involved in drug dealing is beyond doubt, but there was no unwritten policy within WP or OIRA that endorsed this behaviour.

Cáthasaigh
09-09-2010, 05:24 PM
The Repsol affair and Garland's Korean adventure are not the issue here. And I have already said that certain people had links to both criminal gangs and OIRA. Armed robberies were certainly carried out, as were rackets. The fact that some of these gangs were involved in drug dealing is beyond doubt, but there was no unwritten policy within WP or OIRA that endorsed this behaviour.

Proinsias De Rossa signed a letter in 1986 requesting £1m from the Communist Party of the Soviet Union which contained the following: (http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/1986-letter-from-the-workers-party-to-the-communist-party-of-the-soviet-union-cpsu-looking-for-funds/)

Expenditure over a 12 month period is £325,000 which covers wages, offices, and publications. The bulk of the shortfall has been met by ‘special activities’ of which it is not possible to detail here because of reasons we are sure you will understand. The ‘special activities’ are unable always to be effective and so on occasion the party has had to seek loans from individuals and financial institutions for specific activities. This has meant an accumulation of debt with financial institutions or approximately £100,000, the interest on this alone is crippling us.

I wouldn't want to speculate on the nature of the 'special activities' which he couldn't detail for obvious reasons; nudge, nudge. De Rossa as leader of DL succesfully sued the sindo to the tune of £300,000 for printing n article alleging that De Rossa was aware, while a member of the Workers' Party, of the Official IRA's illegal activities, including bank robberies and forgery. Who the hell did the sindo have as legal representation?

The KGB ultimately granted the request in 1988. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kgb-approved-1m-pounds-aid-request-by-party-with-ira-link-peter-pringle-in-moscow-finds-evidence-in-formerly-secret-archives-of-how-close-the-soviet-union-came-to-funding-dublin-politicians-1559647.html)

Griska
09-09-2010, 05:30 PM
Proinsias De Rossa signed a letter in 1986 requesting £1m from the Communist Party of the Soviet Union which contained the following: (http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/1986-letter-from-the-workers-party-to-the-communist-party-of-the-soviet-union-cpsu-looking-for-funds/)

Expenditure over a 12 month period is £325,000 which covers wages, offices, and publications. The bulk of the shortfall has been met by ‘special activities’ of which it is not possible to detail here because of reasons we are sure you will understand. The ‘special activities’ are unable always to be effective and so on occasion the party has had to seek loans from individuals and financial institutions for specific activities. This has meant an accumulation of debt with financial institutions or approximately £100,000, the interest on this alone is crippling us.

I wouldn't want to speculate on the nature of the 'special activities' which he couldn't detail for obvious reasons; nudge, nudge. De Rossa as leader of DL succesfully sued the sindo to the tune of £300,000 for printing n article alleging that De Rossa was aware, while a member of the Workers' Party, of the Official IRA's illegal activities, including bank robberies and forgery. Who the hell did the sindo have as legal representation?

The KGB ultimately granted the request in 1988. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kgb-approved-1m-pounds-aid-request-by-party-with-ira-link-peter-pringle-in-moscow-finds-evidence-in-formerly-secret-archives-of-how-close-the-soviet-union-came-to-funding-dublin-politicians-1559647.html)

And? Like I said, no unwritten policy endorsing this behaviour.

Cáthasaigh
09-09-2010, 05:52 PM
And? Like I said, no unwritten policy endorsing this behaviour.

And Gerry Adams wasn't a member of the PIRA who had 'no unwrittten policy; protecting paedos in their ranks.

Just who the f_k are you trying to kid?

Griska
09-09-2010, 06:15 PM
And Gerry Adams wasn't a member of the PIRA who had 'no unwrittten policy; protecting paedos in their ranks.

Just who the f_k are you trying to kid?

Good response. On a serious note, the point I was making was ************************. Everyone knows what De Rossa was on about in the (in)famous Moscow Letter.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 06:25 PM
Good response. On a serious note, the point I was making was about *******************. Everyone knows what De Rossa was on about in the (in)famous Moscow Letter.

No they don't and I seriously doubt that.

Of course, the legal case was lost because it could have been coffee mornings and sponsored walks.

I would ask posters on this thread to remember that people are entitled to their reputation unless and until proven otherwise. Speculation is a waste of time.

Cáthasaigh
09-09-2010, 06:55 PM
Good response. On a serious note, the point I was making was ************************. Everyone knows what De Rossa was on about in the (in)famous Moscow Letter.

LOL, I profusely apologise for any suspected Stickie apologism.



No they don't and I seriously doubt that.

Of course, the legal case was lost because it could have been coffee mornings and sponsored walks.

I would ask posters on this thread to remember that people are entitled to their reputation unless and until proven otherwise. Speculation is a waste of time.

Yes De Rossa has a reputation very different from the bearded, media construct. Himself and his northern beardalike aren't too very different.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 07:38 PM
The Repsol affair and Garland's Korean adventure are not the issue here. And I have already said that certain people had links to both criminal gangs and OIRA. Armed robberies were certainly carried out, as were rackets. The fact that some of these gangs were involved in drug dealing is beyond doubt, but there was no unwritten policy within WP or OIRA that endorsed this behaviour.

In the first clause of the bolded sentence you admit that yes, criminal gangs that the OIRA/WP had 'dealings' with did indeed deal drugs. In the case of the Dunne gang, that drug was heroin.

The second clause of that sentence deserves close parsing Griska, for I see you're up to some serious Orange Order-grade semantic obfuscation here. I never said that the WP or its 'now-you-see-it-now-you-don't' armed wing either endorsed or profited from the heroin empire of their allies the Dunnes. What I said was that the WP as a whole and the 'secret' RTÉ Ned Stapleton Cumann (Harris, Gregg, Claffey et al) in particular deflected criticism away from the Dunnes and toward the community activists in working-class Dublin trying to rally communities to confront the heroin-dealing activities of the WP's sometime allies. Also, the OIRA intimidated activists who bravely stood up to the Dunnes, and that this intimidation was so serious as to warrant those same activists making a Faustian deal with the PIRA so that the Sticks would back off with their threats against them. What the WP/'Group B' were doing was a complicated manoeuvre to prevent their links with Ireland's pioneer heroin dealers becoming widespread public knowledge. The reputational damage from that would certainly have been severe enough to render their grandiose electoral ambitions stillborn, and along with it the careers of Rabbitte, Gilmore, De Rossa, McManus, Lynch and many others. It is no wonder they tried so hard both to bury these links, and the community campaigns in opposition to the nefarious activities of their friends.

Another reason the WP hated these community campaigns against heroin was that they couldn't infiltrate them because of their compromised position vis a vis the Dunnes. These campaigns therefore couldn't be suborned by them for their own electoral-fodder purposes, as is the wont of late 20th-Century Leninists of most stripes in this part of the world.

The Hanley/Millar book on the WP/OIRA is a valuable addition to the study of 20th-Century Irish political movements, and its searing honesty toward its subject matter stands as a benchmark for future writers in the field to aim for. Having read the book, I'm really surprised at the level of co-operation many current and former SF/WP members gave to the authors, considering the amount of seedy, murky and murderous activities that organisation was up to, and also I'm surprised at how warm the reception for the book was in WP circles given the level of candour about the lack of both scruples and internal democracy in both the party and military organisations.

All this makes you wonder sometimes about how this cabal of self-anointed chancers got so far in Irish public life, but then you remind yourself of the dreary reality of Fianna Fáil, and the momentary wonder evaporates. The people who made up the 'Official Republican Movement' never in fact stood apart from the culture or mores that dominated the Ireland of their times - they were merely a more extreme and more exotically self-justified version of it.

Griska
09-09-2010, 07:59 PM
Another reason the WP hated these community campaigns against heroin was that they couldn't infiltrate them because of their compromised position vis a vis the Dunnes.


The main reason WP weren't prominent in the anti-drug movements of the time was that they (the anti-drug movements) were under almost absolute Provo control. Surely you know this.

I'm not saying OIRA activity at this time was admirable or that they didn't deal with appalling people.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 08:13 PM
Another reason the WP hated these community campaigns against heroin was that they couldn't infiltrate them because of their compromised position vis a vis the Dunnes. These campaigns therefore couldn't be suborned by them for their own electoral-fodder purposes, as is the wont of late 20th-Century Leninists of most stripes in this part of the world.

.....All this makes you wonder sometimes about how this cabal of self-anointed chancers got so far in Irish public life, but then you remind yourself of the dreary reality of Fianna Fáil, and the momentary wonder evaporates. The people who made up the 'Official Republican Movement' never in fact stood apart from the culture or mores that dominated the Ireland of their times - they were merely a more extreme and more exotically self-justified version of it.


They were either Leninists or Fianna Failers - how can they have been both at the same time ?

Lenin would turn in his grave at the thought of "socialists" introducing heroin into working class areas. Anyone who did such a thing is anti-working class.

I don't have background knowledge to know if it's correct, but I agree that the book seems to be very sound and an important book.

Griska
09-09-2010, 08:36 PM
They were either Leninists or Fianna Failers - how can they have been both at the same time ?

Lenin would turn in his grave at the thought of "socialists" introducing heroin into working class areas. Anyone who did such a thing is anti-working class.

I don't have background knowledge to know if it's correct, but I agree that the book seems to be very sound and an important book.

Marxist-Leninists in fact. They did not introduce heroin into working class areas. Kid Ryder has acknowledge they were not involved in heroin. It is an important book, as the history of the IRA post '69 seems mostly focused on the Provos.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 08:44 PM
The main reason WP weren't prominent in the anti-drug movements of the time was that they (the anti-drug movements) were under almost absolute Provo control. Surely you know this.

I'm not saying OIRA activity at this time was admirable or that they didn't deal with appalling people.

You're being very economical with the actualité here Griska. Those anti-heroin movements were started mostly by ordinary people in working-class communities with the help of a few activists of various political tendencies. The PSF input into the formation of these groups was nearly non-existent, and the Provos didn't have much of a political presence in the 26 counties away from the Border areas at that time. Dublin was typical of this, but the PIRA did have an organisation in the Dublin area, and they were approached to provide 'protection' for activists as they stood up to the four-pronged intimidatory campaign against them by the WP/OIRA, the Ned Stapleton Cumann/RTÉ, the Dunne gang and Garda Special Branch. The PSF organisation in the Dublin area grew from almost nothing to a decent presence in the wake of their growing involvement in anti-drugs campaigns in working-class neighbourhoods with the subsequent recruitment of campaigners from this milieu, and this would have been how many of SF's current and former members of that vintage became involved with the party in the first place. PSF's presence in and influence over these groups grew in an environment where the hostility encountered by them came from the state, organised crime, and a significant party of the parliamentary left, as well as the 'Leave it to Laura Norder' gombeens of FF, FG and LAB. When everyone appears to be agin' ya, ye'll take whatever friends ye can get, Griska.

I like the use of the words 'almost absolute'. Very like 'fresh frozen' in its propagandistic meaninglessness allied to a knowing mendacity. You seem to be well-schooled in this tactic of obfuscation, companero.

The fact that you're telling this porkie Griska makes me suspect that you have some sort of attachment to the Workers Party. Is it a current or former membership? Or is it some wrongheaded 'Wromantic' belief that there was/is a 'principled democratic socialist republican movement' out there?

(PS I'm reminded about a saying about dogs and vomit, but I'll leave it out for now)

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 08:45 PM
Does anyone know anything about the history of the Labour Party ?

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 08:48 PM
You're being very economical with the actualité here Griska. Those anti-heroin movements were started mostly by ordinary people in working-class communities with the help of a few activists of various political tendencies. The PSF input into the formation of these groups was nearly non-existent, and the Provos didn't have much of a political presence in the 26 counties away from the Border areas at that time. Dublin was typical of this, but the PIRA did have an organisation in the Dublin area, and they were approached to provide 'protection' for activists as they stood up to the four-pronged intimidatory campaign against them by the WP/OIRA, the Ned Stapleton Cumann/RTÉ, the Dunne gang and Garda Special Branch. The PSF organisation in the Dublin area grew from almost nothing to a decent presence in the wake of their growing involvement in anti-drugs campaigns in working-class neighbourhoods with the subsequent recruitment of campaigners from this milieu, and this would have been how many of SF's current and former members of that vintage became involved with the party in the first place. PSF's presence in and influence over these groups grew in an environment where the hostility encountered by them came from the state, organised crime, and a significant party of the parliamentary left, as well as the 'Leave it to Laura Norder' gombeens of FF, FG and LAB. When everyone appears to be agin' ya, ye'll take whatever friends ye can get, Griska.

I like the use of the words 'almost absolute'. Very like 'fresh frozen' in its propagandistic meaninglessness allied to a knowing mendacity. You seem to be well-schooled in this tactic of obfuscation, companero.

The fact that you're telling this porkie Griska makes me suspect that you have some sort of attachment to the Workers Party. Is it a current or former membership? Or is it some wrongheaded 'Wromantic' belief that there was/is a 'principled democratic socialist republican movement' out there?

(PS I'm reminded about a saying about dogs and vomit, but I'll leave it out for now)

As its ball not man here, unless someone volunteers information about their political party memberships, its off topic.

Are you of the view that a principled socialist and/or republican party is not possible?

I remember the hostility of the Guards and RTE to the community groups which was sickening.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 08:55 PM
Marxist-Leninists in fact. They did not introduce heroin into working class areas. Kid Ryder has acknowledge they were not involved in heroin. It is an important book, as the history of the IRA post '69 seems mostly focused on the Provos.

No, but they protected the significant heroin-dealing gang of those times for the sake of their public reputation. The WP coming clean on their opportunistic links with the Dunnes would have been electoral suicide. And since they were a Leninist vanguardist organisation and therefore in their own eyes intrinsically far more important than Dublin's working-class communities, lies 'necessarily' had to be told and tens of thousands of lives had to be allowed to be blighted by heroin addiction so that the capture of state power by the 'authentic representatives of the Irish people and proletariat' could one day happen.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 08:59 PM
No, but they protected the significant heroin-dealing gang of those times for the sake of their public reputation. The WP coming clean on their opportunistic links with the Dunnes would have been electoral suicide. And since they were a Leninist vanguardist organisation and therefore in their own eyes intrinsically far more important than Dublin's working-class communities, lies 'necessarily' had to be told and tens of thousands of lives had to be allowed to be blighted by heroin addiction so that the capture of state power by the 'authentic representatives of the Irish people and proletariat' could one day happen.

It's just not possible imo, that's not what Leninism is. If they were messing with heroin, politically they were something else. Leninists would have been running heroin out of it.

LeftAtTheCross
09-09-2010, 09:12 PM
One of the main reasons for Labour's degeneration has been fear of taking an independent line and tying themselves hand and foot to whichever of the big 2 seems more likely to throw them the bone of coalition.

I'd agree with you there. It's difficult to separate it from the general rightwards movement in western society over the past 20-30 years, it's not a purely local phenomenon here in Ireland, there has been a general crisis in social democracy across the board. Inevitable arguably, supping with the devil and all of that.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 09:19 PM
As its ball not man here, unless someone volunteers information about their political party memberships, its off topic.

Are you of the view that a principled socialist and/or republican party is not possible?

I remember the hostility of the Guards and RTE to the community groups which was sickening.

Firstly, Griska is retailing the WP's tired old lies about the anti-drugs campaigns, and I believe he's doing this knowingly. For what reason, I'm not entirely sure, but it may have something to do with his own political background.

Secondly, principled authoritarian political organisations are an oxymoron of the highest (or should that be lowest?) order. 'Do as you're told', 'Ours not to reason why' and 'The end justifies the means' are characteristic of all political groups of this formation, and even more so when you add the toxic inheritance of militarism that Irish republicanism has. All socialist organisations that consciously identify as vanguardist are always liable to commit and justify crimes against the class whose interests they claim to espouse, as we have seen with the Stickies and skag in the early '80s. All in the interests of the 'authentic liberation organisation of the class' you see. That's one of the key reasons why my politics are anarchist. You can never trust the Elect of Marx, or those who have received 'The Mandate Of Our Heroic Dead' in the Irish republican context. Such types are always above being answerable to ordinary flesh-and-blood people, because you and I count for nothing when compared with the awesome historically-necessary task of the Party/Movement.

Thirdly, you did well to remember the enormous hostility the cops had to the anti-heroin campaigns. After all, these brave campaigners did expose the monumental uselessness of the Gardaí when it comes to dealing with real anti-social behaviour and crime in working-class communities. So when Harris'/Gregg's libel about these campaigns being 'Provo fronts' was doing the rounds, the Gardaí had their own selfish reasons for going along with it. It gave them the excuse to use Special Branch to harrass community activists, hoping that they could make these embarrassing (to them and their Govt. masters) 'vigilantes' disappear, and have the Dublin '80s heroin epidemic fade from public awareness.

Griska
09-09-2010, 09:37 PM
You're being very economical with the actualité here Griska. Those anti-heroin movements were started mostly by ordinary people in working-class communities with the help of a few activists of various political tendencies. The PSF input into the formation of these groups was nearly non-existent, and the Provos didn't have much of a political presence in the 26 counties away from the Border areas at that time. Dublin was typical of this, but the PIRA did have an organisation in the Dublin area, and they were approached to provide 'protection' for activists as they stood up to the four-pronged intimidatory campaign against them by the WP/OIRA, the Ned Stapleton Cumann/RTÉ, the Dunne gang and Garda Special Branch. The PSF organisation in the Dublin area grew from almost nothing to a decent presence in the wake of their growing involvement in anti-drugs campaigns in working-class neighbourhoods with the subsequent recruitment of campaigners from this milieu, and this would have been how many of SF's current and former members of that vintage became involved with the party in the first place. PSF's presence in and influence over these groups grew in an environment where the hostility encountered by them came from the state, organised crime, and a significant party of the parliamentary left, as well as the 'Leave it to Laura Norder' gombeens of FF, FG and LAB. When everyone appears to be agin' ya, ye'll take whatever friends ye can get, Griska.

I like the use of the words 'almost absolute'. Very like 'fresh frozen' in its propagandistic meaninglessness allied to a knowing mendacity. You seem to be well-schooled in this tactic of obfuscation, companero.

The fact that you're telling this porkie Griska makes me suspect that you have some sort of attachment to the Workers Party. Is it a current or former membership? Or is it some wrongheaded 'Wromantic' belief that there was/is a 'principled democratic socialist republican movement' out there?

(PS I'm reminded about a saying about dogs and vomit, but I'll leave it out for now)
Feel free to share whatever sayings pop into your head.
Your well written comment, including it's barely disguised vitriol is impressive. Do you honestly believe that the Provos weren't organised in the south at this time? Admittedly they weren't the photogenic lot they are now, but they were significant. True also that they didn't start the anti-drugs campaigns. But they were savvy enough to infiltrate them very early and they became very visual and vocal in these movements.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 09:45 PM
Firstly, Griska is retailing the WP's tired old lies about the anti-drugs campaigns, and I believe he's doing this knowingly. For what reason, I'm not entirely sure, but it may have something to do with his own political background.

Secondly, principled authoritarian political organisations are an oxymoron of the highest (or should that be lowest?) order. 'Do as you're told', 'Ours not to reason why' and 'The end justifies the means' are characteristic of all political groups of this formation, and even more so when you add the toxic inheritance of militarism that Irish republicanism has. All socialist organisations that consciously identify as vanguardist are always liable to commit and justify crimes against the class whose interests they claim to espouse, as we have seen with the Stickies and skag in the early '80s. All in the interests of the 'authentic liberation organisation of the class' you see. That's one of the key reasons why my politics are anarchist. You can never trust the Elect of Marx, or those who have received 'The Mandate Of Our Heroic Dead' in the Irish republican context. Such types are always above being answerable to ordinary flesh-and-blood people, because you and I count for nothing when compared with the awesome historically-necessary task of the Party/Movement.

Thirdly, you did well to remember the enormous hostility the cops had to the anti-heroin campaigns. After all, these brave campaigners did expose the monumental uselessness of the Gardaí when it comes to dealing with real anti-social behaviour and crime in working-class communities. So when Harris'/Gregg's libel about these campaigns being 'Provo fronts' was doing the rounds, the Gardaí had their own selfish reasons for going along with it. It gave them the excuse to use Special Branch to harrass community activists, hoping that they could make these embarrassing (to them and their Govt. masters) 'vigilantes' disappear, and have the Dublin '80s heroin epidemic fade from public awareness.

I think there may be more than one shade of socialist and more than one shade of anarchist.

Socialism could only be achieved through the working class becoming a class for itself, not getting its brains fried with toxins.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 09:52 PM
This thread needs to get back on topic - and Labour did have a history back to 1922 way before merger with the Stickies.

http://www.labour.ie/party/history.html

antiestablishmentarian
09-09-2010, 10:04 PM
It seems to me that any discussion of the history of the Labour Party is incomplete without a discussion on William O'Brien, the man responsible for dragging Connolly and Larkins organisation rightwards and beginning the pattern of flirtation with Cumann na nGaedhael/FG. He hated Larkin for personal reasons (Larkin is said to have been arrogant and abrasive, how true that is I don't know) and their feud consumed the Party leading to a split out of which the right wing, led by O'Brien and a number of other ITGWU bureaucrats like Jim Everett, split from the Labour Party and set up the National Labour Party, who distinguished themselves with their redbaiting. I suppose this episode shows that there was always a battle for the soul of the Labour Party, between a militant base and conservative bureaucratic leadership which ended with the bourgeoisification of Labour in the late 80's and its complete corruption under Spring.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 10:34 PM
Feel free to share whatever sayings pop into your head.
Your well written comment, including it's barely disguised vitriol is impressive. Do you honestly believe that the Provos weren't organised in the south at this time? Admittedly they weren't the photogenic lot they are now, but they were significant. True also that they didn't start the anti-drugs campaigns. But they were savvy enough to infiltrate them very early and they became very visual and vocal in these movements.

It's obvious that you have some visceral dislike of the 'Provos'. However, how PSF conducted itself in the '80s with the anti-heroin campaigns is not that sinister, but is rather how all political organisations from the authoritarian spectrum approach campaign groups. They sought to have their members hold key positions in these campaigns in order to maximise their influence over the thinking and direction of the group. The WP, Fianna Fáil or the Labour Party of that time (or now, for that matter) would have operated in exactly the same manner had they been involved, which they weren't for various reasons outlined earlier. I wonder if you're against infiltration and entryism in all circumstances, or is it only when the hated Shinners do it?

It's well to remember too that outside of a few Trots and anarchists, PSF was the only political organisation of any size to get involved in the anti-heroin campaigns. That speaks volumes about the rest of the political spectrum of the time; that urban communities organising themselves to fight the heroin dealers was either of no interest to them or maybe seen by them as some kind of threat (certainly a threat in the case of the Workers Party). When people had real problems, the 'representatives' were either nowhere to be seen, or were publicly casting aspersions on the origins or motivations of the community campaigns.

With regard to the extent and focus of the PSF organisation south of the Border, in Dublin as in most other places, the political party acted primarily as a support adjunct to the 'Army'. When the 1970-71 split in Sinn Féin occurred, the Provisionals got by far the minority share of members in most of the 26 Counties, and this minority was composed mostly of military (or military-minded) members and the odd trade-union activist. They didn't get many of the political activists - even Séamus Costello stayed with the Officials until his own departure to form the IRSP in '75. For the '70s PSF had no more than a token interest in running election candidates, and from my youthful memories in Co. Clare it's fair to say that PSF hardly existed there, especially when compared to the IRSP in the county during that decade. PSF would have been similarly weak over much of the Republic during that time, the exception being the Border areas (and they weren't that significant electorally much there either). The interest of PSF in electioneering and above all in getting candidates elected only came about with the Hunger Strikes. North and south of the Border, the PSF saw that they had a potential voting constituency out there, and in the wake of the electoral successes of that time, PSF found itself increasingly interested in and committed to electioneering. It also made it more logical for them to get involved in community campaigns like the anti-heroin ones, as ways to build the needed local party organisations in communities for election purposes, and to find (and promote) likely successful election candidates. The Dublin anti-drugs community campaigns of the time were in fact most opportune for PSF, for through them they recruited a layer of people who went on to build party branches and electoral machines in much of working-class Dublin. Had the Hunger Strikes never happened, or not happened until much later, who knows what level of involvement politically with the campaigns would PSF have chosen. Maybe they might have ignored them altogether?

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 10:40 PM
I think there may be more than one shade of socialist and more than one shade of anarchist.

True, but none of us anarchists go around committing crimes against our class and then saying that 'history will absolve us'. You have to be either a Trot or a Tanky to believe that. Or Tony Blair at a pinch, but I've never seen him commit crimes against his fellow toffs (unless you count the ban on hunting with hounds!).

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 10:42 PM
True, but none of us anarchists go around committing crimes against our class and then saying that 'history will absolve us'. You have to be either a Trot or a Tanky to believe that. Or Tony Blair at a pinch, but I've never seen him commit crimes against his fellow toffs (unless you count the ban on hunting with hounds!).

What's a "Tanky" ?

What about the brand of anarchist - not your brand - that used to blow people up ?

TotalMayhem
09-09-2010, 10:45 PM
What's a "Tanky" ?

A Tanky is a totally unreconstructed Stalinist whose answer to all dissent is to send in the tanks.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 10:59 PM
It seems to me that any discussion of the history of the Labour Party is incomplete without a discussion on William O'Brien, the man responsible for dragging Connolly and Larkins organisation rightwards and beginning the pattern of flirtation with Cumann na nGaedhael/FG. He hated Larkin for personal reasons (Larkin is said to have been arrogant and abrasive, how true that is I don't know) and their feud consumed the Party leading to a split out of which the right wing, led by O'Brien and a number of other ITGWU bureaucrats like Jim Everett, split from the Labour Party and set up the National Labour Party, who distinguished themselves with their redbaiting. I suppose this episode shows that there was always a battle for the soul of the Labour Party, between a militant base and conservative bureaucratic leadership which ended with the bourgeoisification of Labour in the late 80's and its complete corruption under Spring.

A reasonably accurate two-minute history of the Labour Party up to the reverse take-over by DL in '97. Well done. It does leave out the expulsion of the Militant tendency in the '80s (What year exactly was it antiestablishmentarian?) and the subsequent formation of the Socialist Party.

Also, the absorption of Jim Kemmy and his Limerick-based Democratic Socialist Party is missing, even though it's a minor note overall in recent LP history. Well, it's almost nothing compared to the reverse take-over by DL and the aggressive implementation of quasi-Stalinist dictatorial centralism during Rabbitte's and Gilmore's leaderships. Even long-standing party rules and procedures can be set to naught when the Nat. Exec. want to impose some celebrity candidate on an unwilling local organisation. I'll link you to the recent Indymedia report on such shenanigans in Sligo-North Leitrim just to give a recent example.

Labour row over candidate choice in Sligo-N Leitrim (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/97489)

Summerday Sands
09-09-2010, 10:59 PM
A Tanky is a totally unreconstructed Stalinist whose answer to all dissent is to send in the tanks.

From the Hungarian uprising isn't it?

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 11:03 PM
Didn't the Labour Party produce a programme for the first Dail that provided for nationalisation, or is that myth?

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 11:08 PM
What's a "Tanky" ?

What about the brand of anarchist - not your brand - that used to blow people up ?

What exactly is 'my brand of anarchist'?

The 'propaganda of the deed' anarchists of the late 19th Century did indeed commit some appalling crimes, but they never claimed that fúcked-up catch-all teleological absolution that is characteristic of our separated Marxist 'brethren' like Fidel (who invented the phrase IIRC). Anarchists have most often taken personal responsibility for their actions, even to the gallows or the firing squad.

antiestablishmentarian
09-09-2010, 11:09 PM
A reasonably accurate two-minute history of the Labour Party up to the reverse take-over by DL in '97. Well done. It does leave out the expulsion of the Militant tendency in the '80s (What year exactly was it antiestablishmentarian?) and the subsequent formation of the Socialist Party.

Also, the absorption of Jim Kemmy and his Limerick-based Democratic Socialist Party is missing, even though it's a minor note overall in recent LP history. Well, it's almost nothing compared to the reverse take-over by DL and the aggressive implementation of quasi-Stalinist dictatorial centralism during Rabbitte's and Gilmore's leaderships. Even long-standing party rules and procedures can be set to naught when the Nat. Exec. want to impose some celebrity candidate on an unwilling local organisation. I'll link you to the recent Indymedia report on such shenanigans in Sligo-North Leitrim just to give a recent example.

Labour row over candidate choice in Sligo-N Leitrim (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/97489)

Yeah I agree it was missing quite a bit of info and I really only intended to set out the past history of struggle between left and right in Labour until the 1960's. I think I might ask JollyRedGiant to post as he was a member of Labour in the 1980's prior to the expulsion, the subsequent Militant vote to change tactics and the changing of our analysis towards the Labour Party.

antiestablishmentarian
09-09-2010, 11:13 PM
Didn't the Labour Party produce a programme for the first Dail that provided for nationalisation, or is that myth?

They didn't stand for the elections to the First Dáil. The cardinal error in Labour's history as they refused to take an independent working class position on the National Question and failed to provide a platform for the growing struggles that erupted following the defeat of consciption.

C. Flower
09-09-2010, 11:14 PM
What exactly is 'my brand of anarchist'?

The 'propaganda of the deed' anarchists of the late 19th Century did indeed commit some appalling crimes, but they never claimed that fúcked-up catch-all teleological absolution that is characteristic of our separated Marxist 'brethren' like Fidel (who invented the phrase IIRC). Anarchists have most often taken personal responsibility for their actions, even to the gallows or the firing squad.

From what you've said, not the "propoganda of deed" kind.

What's IIRC? Plenty of non-anarchists - and non-socialists - have gone to the gallows and firing squads for their beliefs. Many communists died in the concentration camps.

TotalMayhem
09-09-2010, 11:19 PM
From the Hungarian uprising isn't it?

It's also the Russian plural for tank.

Kid Ryder
09-09-2010, 11:21 PM
From what you've said, not the "propoganda of deed" kind.

What's IIRC? Plenty of non-anarchists - and non-socialists - have gone to the gallows and firing squads for their beliefs. Many communists died in the concentration camps.

I think you're missing my point CF. It's not so much the weight of the punishment anyone received, it's more the justification for their actions. 'History will absolve us' is the authoritarian socialist equivalent of 'I was only following orders', and is the same kind of moral cop-out when it comes to the real crimes of 'state socialism'.

antiestablishmentarian
12-09-2010, 12:32 PM
Bump. Here's an interesting comment about the evolution of Labour during the Militant period and Militants expulsion and decision to leave over on the Cedar Lounge Revolution blog
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/02/25/the-left-archive-militant-special-irish-edition-from-january-1972/#comment-77349

C. Flower
12-09-2010, 12:48 PM
I think you're missing my point CF. It's not so much the weight of the punishment anyone received, it's more the justification for their actions. 'History will absolve us' is the authoritarian socialist equivalent of 'I was only following orders', and is the same kind of moral cop-out when it comes to the real crimes of 'state socialism'.

Who are you thinking of in particular here? Would you have some examples in mind?

Griska
19-08-2011, 05:57 PM
Bump.

It appears to me that the Labour Party has taken a further evolutionary step and cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as left or even centre left.
Is this unfair? Are they hostages to Fine Gael, or have they really swung further right?
I wonder if there is a moment when this happened, their clause 4 moment?
Any thoughts?

Kid Ryder
19-08-2011, 06:16 PM
Bump.

It appears to me that the Labour Party has taken a further evolutionary step and cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as left or even centre left.
Is this unfair? Are they hostages to Fine Gael, or have they really swung further right?
I wonder if there is a moment when this happened, their clause 4 moment?
Any thoughts?

The Public Sector Working Class Tory Party? Refugees from FF who vote for refugees from the WP? A bit of a caricature, but there's a grain of truth in it these days.

Griska
19-08-2011, 06:27 PM
The Public Sector Working Class Tory Party? Refugees from FF who vote for refugees from the WP? A bit of a caricature, but there's a grain of truth in it these days.

There may well be a grain of truth in it, but if you were pushed, how would you describe Labour today?

Apjp
19-08-2011, 11:09 PM
Maoism and Guavaran tendencies state that only armed campaigns with the support of the people can bring down any authoritarian anti social govt. It is difficult to see how this argument won't resurface within political parties on the Irish and European left(particularly in Greece where the army wants a 'social justice coup' according to recent articles) or to a greater extent, within armies even.

unspecific
21-08-2011, 11:39 PM
Bump.

It appears to me that the Labour Party has taken a further evolutionary step and cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as left or even centre left.
Is this unfair? Are they hostages to Fine Gael, or have they really swung further right?
I wonder if there is a moment when this happened, their clause 4 moment?
Any thoughts?

If an election is triggered in say 2012, 2013 then what could Labour possibly say in opposition? They can hardly call for stimulus packages, nationalisations and a reversal of cuts as they will have been as lethal as FF in government. Every chance they will be left irrelevant at about 10 seats. By going into government they have eliminated any chance of a return to the left for at least a decade.

That will leave just SF and the ULA as the only parties untainted by implementing cuts. Which won't be enough to form a government.

The numbers will only be there for a SF/FG government. Mark it in your diary, Tanaiste Mary Lou in time for 2016. Then SF will go through the same de-lefting process as Labour have. The aftermath of the next general election will be immeasurably fascinating. A perfect storm is brewing for a legitimacy crisis for the institution of parliament.

Griska
21-08-2011, 11:44 PM
If an election is triggered in say 2012, 2013 then what could Labour possibly say in opposition? They can hardly call for stimulus packages, nationalisations and a reversal of cuts as they will have been as lethal as FF in government. Every chance they will be left irrelevant at about 10 seats. By going into government they have eliminated any chance of a return to the left for at least a decade.

That will leave just SF and the ULA as the only parties untainted by implementing cuts. Which won't be enough to form a government.

The numbers will only be there for a SF/FG government. Mark it in your diary, Tanaiste Mary Lou in time for 2016. Then SF will go through the same de-lefting process as Labour have. The aftermath of the next general election will be immeasurably fascinating. A perfect storm is brewing for a legitimacy crisis for the institution of parliament.

SF north of the border have already gone to the other side, unspecific.
No reason to believe it won't happen in the South.

Garibaldy
21-08-2011, 11:54 PM
SF north of the border have already gone to the other side, unspecific.
No reason to believe it won't happen in the South.

I'd have thought they went through something along these lines before 2007 in Gerry's desperate attempt to marry himself to Bertie, before tacking leftwards again once the crisis hit. No reason to think there won't be change when the wind changes direction again.

Griska
21-08-2011, 11:59 PM
I'd have thought they went through something along these lines before 2007 in Gerry's desperate attempt to marry himself to Bertie, before tacking leftwards again once the crisis hit. No reason to think there won't be change when the wind changes direction again.

I wonder if there are those in SF with a break from the old regime in mind.
Pearse Doherty was superb before he was usurped by Adams and Mary Lou.
He's been notable by his absence on the airwaves since.

Garibaldy
22-08-2011, 12:06 AM
I wonder if there are those in SF with a break from the old regime in mind.
Pearse Doherty was superb before he was usurped by Adams and Mary Lou.
He's been notable by his absence on the airwaves since.

No chance of a break with the old regime. And, in fairness, the old regime has taken them this far, much further than looked possibly in 2007. Hard to see why they would want a change, other than personal ambition. But none of them has the base to challenge the centre. Would take a whole bunch of them simultaneously, and no reason for that, although I'm sure there are some who think they could do a better job.

unspecific
22-08-2011, 12:27 AM
SF north of the border have already gone to the other side, unspecific.
No reason to believe it won't happen in the South.

Oh I'm aware, its just interesting seeing this de-lefting process repeating itself/being able to predict it. The mock left sustaining rightwing consensus in perpetuity. Its almost like its built into the system. How does that bode for new left groups? How can it be overcome?


I'd have thought they went through something along these lines before 2007 in Gerry's desperate attempt to marry himself to Bertie, before tacking leftwards again once the crisis hit. No reason to think there won't be change when the wind changes direction again.

Its so predictable its amazing. The question is, do people cooperate with southern SF in the meantime while they are posing left thereby giving them credibility?

Garibaldy
22-08-2011, 12:36 AM
Oh I'm aware, its just interesting seeing this de-lefting process repeating itself/being able to predict it. The mock left sustaining rightwing consensus in perpetuity. Its almost like its built into the system. How does that bode for new left groups? How can it be overcome?



Its so predictable its amazing. The question is, do people cooperate with southern SF in the meantime while they are posing left thereby giving them credibility?

I think people cooperate with anyone prepared to oppose the onslaught, while at the same time fostering no illusions.

unspecific
22-08-2011, 01:34 AM
Back to the OP, its worth noting how many retirees Labour will be having at the next general election. A quick scan - and an assumption that people won't run when they reach pensionable age - finds that at least 11 will be retiring.

That list includes Tommy Broughan, Joan Burton, Eric Byrne, Mick Conaghan, Joe Costello, Sean Kenny, Jan O'Sullivan, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte and Emmet Stagg.

The constituencies with a Labour TD retiring are

Dublin North East x2
Dublin South Central x2
Dublin West
Dublin Central
Dublin South East
Dublin South West

Kildare North
Kildare South

Limerick City.

Constituencies with a Labour TD not retiring

Dublin Midwest x2
Dun Laoighaire
Dublin North
Dublin North West x2
Dublin North Central
Dublin South
Dublin South East
Dublin South West

Cork North Central
Cork East
Cork South Central
Cork South West

Carlow-Kilkenny
Clare
Galway East
Galway West
Kerry North-Limerick West
Longford-Westmeath
Louth
Meath East
Tipperary North
Waterford
Wexford
Wicklow

Probably for the first time, Labour's TDs from outside of Dublin would have a strong majority if Labour is unable to replace its retirees but hold every other seat - 16-10. If, as is likely, the Labour vote cannot maintain 2 seats in a single constituency, their Dublin presence would be reduced to 8 TDs(out of 47) - half their rural tally.

The massive influx of FF's vote has pulled Labour out of Dublin and to rural Ireland. Typically rural areas in Ireland are less leftwing than urban centres, so it is likely that Labour will solidify its position on right to maintain that.

C. Flower
02-09-2011, 09:10 AM
The age profile of the Labour Party has been commented on a lot. I'm wondering if the Party has attracted more young people in the last couple of years.

In the meantime -


AGENDA FOR LABOUR SPECIAL PARLIAMENTARY PARTY MEETING ANNOUNCED


The special pre-Dail meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party will take place:

Monday 5th and Tuesday 6th September, 2011

Mount Wolseley Hotel
Tullow, Co. Carlow

www.labour.ie/press


FINAL AGENDA


Monday 5th September

12.30 pm Media Opportunity with Eamon Gilmore

13.00 pm Arrival & light Lunch

14.00 pm Welcome by Parliamentary Party Chairperson, Mr. Jack Wall, TD

14.05 pm Party Leader’s Opening Address

14.30 pm ‘Towards Recovery: The Economy & the Budget’

Guest Speakers: Mr. Oliver Gilvarry, Head of Research, Dolmen Securities
Mr. Brendan Howlin, TD., Minister for Public Expenditure & Reform

16.00 pm Coffee Break

16.15 pm ‘Jobs Initiatives: Pathways to Employment’

Guest Speaker: Professor Philip O’Connell, ESRI
Ms. Joan Burton, TD., Minister for Social Protection
Mr. Ruairi Quinn, TD., Minister for Education & Skills

18.00 pm Session Ends

19.30 pm Dinner

Tuesday 6th September

09.30 am ‘Natural Resources Strategy’

Mr. Pat Rabbitte, TD., Minister for Communications, Energy & Natural Resources

10.15 am ‘Autumn Parliamentary Session’

Mr. Emmet Stagg, TD., Assistant Government Whip

10.45 am Presidential Election Campaign

Mr. Joe Costello, TD., Director of Elections, Presidential Election Campaign

11.15 am Coffee Break & Family Photo

11.45 am ‘Constitutional Convention, Bunreacht na hÉireann and what comes next’

Guest Speaker: Dr. Gary Murphy, Senior Lecturer in Government, DCU
Mr. Michael D. Higgins, President of the Labour Party

13.00pm Media Opportunity with Eamon Gilmore

13.00pm Close and light lunch prior to departure

** The Party Leader’s address will be open to the media. All other sessions will be in private.

C. Flower
05-09-2011, 11:02 AM
The Labour Party "think tank" is on today. I was just looking back at last year's

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=4278

Antiestablishmentarian hit the nail on the head -


Thought I'd bump this as Gilmore has apparently come out and said, like Inda, that the recovery will take 10 years. Following on from Fg's similar announcement last week, it seems that Labour are gearing themselves up to be FG's lieutenant again.
__________________ September 2010

Frankie Lee
05-09-2011, 10:39 PM
I wonder what their view on "tax fugitives (http://www.kildarestreet.com/debate/?id=2009-12-10.256.0)" is now?

Kid Ryder
06-09-2011, 12:52 AM
There may well be a grain of truth in it, but if you were pushed, how would you describe Labour today?

The Public Sector Working Class Tory Party is in fact what I'd describe them as today. Reactionaries of a rather high degree, and often reactionary to spite their own political interests. That possibly makes Labour members even more reactionary than say Fine Gael members or even Fianna Fáil members, because their reaction is shot through with a political illogic neither of the others could match. Would either of the others shaft their core voter demographic just for the sake of newspaper approval? Labour would, and are doing it right now.

C. Flower
06-09-2011, 08:56 AM
The "dithering Gilmore" row is dragging on. According to the Independent, it dominated discussion yesterday at the "Think Tank".

Gilmore was just interviewed on RTE 1, radio, and says that he does not dither, and that no-one said he did. Probably.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/row-over-dithering-gilmore-dominates-labour-thinkin-2867254.html

Baron von Biffo
07-09-2011, 12:27 PM
In a piece on the Lab think-in in Carlow the IT describes Burton as "one of the more left-wing members of the parliamentary party". Amazing that our political climate has changed so much that saying unemployment in the middle of a recession is a lifestyle choice makes one left-wing.

Griska
07-09-2011, 09:28 PM
In a piece on the Lab think-in in Carlow the IT describes Burton as "one of the more left-wing members of the parliamentary party". Amazing that our political climate has changed so much that saying unemployment in the middle of a recession is a lifestyle choice makes one left-wing.

She was the one who convinced Quinn, Rabbitte and Gilmore not to back the bank guarantee.
This will probably see her labelled "left" till the end of her days, regardless of how disdainfully she treats people on welfare.