Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry Report

[C. Flower]

The Saville Enquiry was set up in 1998 to investigate the events of Bloody Sunday, 1972, when 14 people taking part in a civil rights demonstration were shot dead by British soldiers.

The report is due to be published in less than a month. It has just been announced that the report will go under legal review under Saville's hands rather than being passed to Government.

Families are anxious that the Report should be published before Parliament is dissolved.

I'm starting this thread for discussion of Bloody Sunday, its political impacts and of the enquiry itself.




It was originally intended that the report into the shooting dead of 14 people by the British Army in Derry in 1972 would be passed to Northern Ireland Secretary of State Shaun Woodward next week - and the legal exercise would then commence.





But the inquiry papers, which took 12 years to compile at a cost of £200m (€224m), will now be reviewed while still under Saville's control.




Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bloody-sunday-families-welcome-report-news-450519.html#ixzz0iZM2Bze6 (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bloody-sunday-families-welcome-report-news-450519.html#ixzz0iZM2Bze6)

[C. Flower]

It looks as if there is little or no chance of the Saville Report being published before the General Election.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bloody-sunday-report-may-be-issued-after-british-election-450978.html

[Andrew49]

Remember the acceptance of Widgery? (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1972/apr/19/northern-ireland-widgery-tribunal-report) ... quite stark reading decades on. Cold blooded even.

[toxic avenger]

Without wishing to pre-empt the report, we pretty much know what happened. The Paras were wound up like clockwork by their superiors, told that the existence of Free Derry was an affront to the British and was making them look weak, and that, just like in Kenya, the natives had to be taught a lesson. They used the cover of a snatch operation in relation to what they deemed 'hooligans' to make their point. The superiors themselves were put under pressure from the political establishment in Whitehall and Stormont to take whatever action they saw fit to impose 'discipline'. It wasn't a situation in which the Paras were confronted with any particular danger, they were well used to kids throwing stones at them. Two of the deaths in particular make a mockery of the version of events often pushed that it was a situation that had simply got out of control. Patrick Doherty was on the ground, already wounded, and was shot at a number of times over a period of time even though he was clearly grounded and no threat to anyone. Bullet after bullet was fired until the one that killed him hit him (basically went in his rear end on the floor and went through him). Prior to that he had called for help and was crying that he didn't want to die alone. Barney McGuigan, a man in his 40s who I think was a steward on the march, went out holding a white cloth to help him. He was in clear sight as being unarmed and no danger when he was shot in the head. Both of those killings were clearly not moments of the Paras 'panicking', or reacting too harshly to a difficult situation. They were cold, deliberate, calm acts of murder, cool as a cucumber. The Paras knew what was going on that day, hence the planting of nail-bombs afterwards. If the Inquiry finds that it was simply a tragic day in which things got 'out of control', it'll be a complete travesty. It was a pre-planned massacre...

[C. Flower]

Without wishing to pre-empt the report, we pretty much know what happened. The Paras were wound up like clockwork by their superiors, told that the existence of Free Derry was an affront to the British and was making them look weak, and that, just like in Kenya, the natives had to be taught a lesson. They used the cover of a snatch operation in relation to what they deemed 'hooligans' to make their point. The superiors themselves were put under pressure from the political establishment in Whitehall and Stormont to take whatever action they saw fit to impose 'discipline'. It wasn't a situation in which the Paras were confronted with any particular danger, they were well used to kids throwing stones at them. Two of the deaths in particular make a mockery of the version of events often pushed that it was a situation that had simply got out of control. Patrick Doherty was on the ground, already wounded, and was shot at a number of times over a period of time even though he was clearly grounded and no threat to anyone. Bullet after bullet was fired until the one that killed him hit him (basically went in his rear end on the floor and went through him). Prior to that he had called for help and was crying that he didn't want to die alone. Barney McGuigan, a man in his 40s who I think was a steward on the march, went out holding a white cloth to help him. He was in clear sight as being unarmed and no danger when he was shot in the head. Both of those killings were clearly not moments of the Paras 'panicking', or reacting too harshly to a difficult situation. They were cold, deliberate, calm acts of murder, cool as a cucumber. The Paras knew what was going on that day, hence the planting of nail-bombs afterwards. If the Inquiry finds that it was simply a tragic day in which things got 'out of control', it'll be a complete travesty. It was a pre-planned massacre...

I agree that it was a pre-planned and utterly cold-headed massacre. Tactically, I think it was intended to drive mass protest off the street and to corall people into violent reaction, after which they could be marginalised, and picked off.

The IDF use similar tactics against the Palestinians.

[C. Flower]

The publication of the enquiry has been announced for June 15th.

http://www.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/whats-new/index.html

A socialist blog here - http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2009/09/30/saville-enquiry-190-million-and-we-already-know-what-happened/

on the delay in publication:




From this perspective the history of Bloody Sunday is relatively clear-cut. The British used military power to force the Civil Rights movement from the streets. As part of the operation they ran a fictional story about a confrontation with the IRA and planted pipe bombs on the bodies of the victims. A judicial enquiry led by Lord Justice Widgery applied a liberal coat of whitewash and the incident was buried. The Bloody Sunday operation was partly successful. Although it did not end street protests and fed into an armed resistance, they did give the capitalist politicians and the local Communist Party the excuse to pull back and oppose further mobilizations.
The Saville Enquiry has to do with the weaknesses of the Provisional republicans. They became a mass organization immediately following the massacre on the basis of a popular understanding that the best way to call finis to Ireland’s history of Bloody Sundays, Mondays and every other day of the week was to expel the British. Unfortunately their lack of class politics and reliance on militarism made them unequal to the task.
Militarism proved unequal to the task. The Provos never mounted any real challenge to Irish capitalism and, when they were pushed back, Irish nationalism and the Catholic Church led them to political capitulation and acceptance of continued British rule. It became necessary to propose ways to resolve outstanding issues. The Provos, in secret negotiations, suggested that the British say sorry. The British declined, proposing the old standby of another enquiry and the morass of the Saville investigation was born. As with many other aspects of the peace process it works better floating in mid-air than when touching ground, being able to absorb endless legal fees and tons of statements and documents until faced with the necessity of reaching an outcome. This has proved difficult since the tribunal closed its doors six years ago.


Interesting, but doesn't spell out in any detail how else people could have acted after Bloody Sunday.

[Summerday Sands]

Without wishing to pre-empt the report, we pretty much know what happened. The Paras were wound up like clockwork by their superiors, told that the existence of Free Derry was an affront to the British and was making them look weak, and that, just like in Kenya, the natives had to be taught a lesson. They used the cover of a snatch operation in relation to what they deemed 'hooligans' to make their point. The superiors themselves were put under pressure from the political establishment in Whitehall and Stormont to take whatever action they saw fit to impose 'discipline'. It wasn't a situation in which the Paras were confronted with any particular danger, they were well used to kids throwing stones at them. Two of the deaths in particular make a mockery of the version of events often pushed that it was a situation that had simply got out of control. Patrick Doherty was on the ground, already wounded, and was shot at a number of times over a period of time even though he was clearly grounded and no threat to anyone. Bullet after bullet was fired until the one that killed him hit him (basically went in his rear end on the floor and went through him). Prior to that he had called for help and was crying that he didn't want to die alone. Barney McGuigan, a man in his 40s who I think was a steward on the march, went out holding a white cloth to help him. He was in clear sight as being unarmed and no danger when he was shot in the head. Both of those killings were clearly not moments of the Paras 'panicking', or reacting too harshly to a difficult situation. They were cold, deliberate, calm acts of murder, cool as a cucumber. The Paras knew what was going on that day, hence the planting of nail-bombs afterwards. If the Inquiry finds that it was simply a tragic day in which things got 'out of control', it'll be a complete travesty. It was a pre-planned massacre...

Is it true that the same soldiers or some of them anyway also took part in the other bloody massacre of the early troubles, Ballymurphy?

http://ballymurphymassacre.com/index.html

[C. Flower]

Is it true that the same soldiers or some of them anyway also took part in the other bloody massacre of the early troubles, Ballymurphy?

http://ballymurphymassacre.com/index.html


How was it possible that that happened without anything like the outrage that there rightly was after Bloody Sunday ?

[Sidewinder]

Is it true that the same soldiers or some of them anyway also took part in the other bloody massacre of the early troubles, Ballymurphy?

The same units involved in both as far as I know, yes. Makes a complete mockery of the (already ridiculous) "inexperienced troops panicked" story.

The British version of Bloody Sunday is so completely absurd and so at variance with all fact, logic and common sense that you really would have to worry about the mental state and capabilities of any cabbage that takes it remotely seriously.

[Summerday Sands]

The same units involved in both as far as I know, yes. Makes a complete mockery of the (already ridiculous) "inexperienced troops panicked" story.

The British version of Bloody Sunday is so completely absurd and so at variance with all fact, logic and common sense that you really would have to worry about the mental state and capabilities of any cabbage that takes it remotely seriously.

Thanks Sidewinder.

This French documentary has some fascinating footage from the day.
YouTube- The Ulster Troubles (Part 18 of 24)

[moss]

The Saville Enquiry was set up in 1998 to investigate the events of Bloody Sunday, 1972, when 14 people taking part in a civil rights demonstration.

The report is due to be published in less than a month. It has just been announced that the report will go under legal review under Saville's hands rather than being passed to Government.

Families are anxious that the Report should be published before Parliament is dissolved.

I'm starting this thread for discussion of Bloody Sunday, its political impacts and of the enquiry itself.





Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bloody-sunday-families-welcome-report-news-450519.html#ixzz0iZM2Bze6 (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bloody-sunday-families-welcome-report-news-450519.html#ixzz0iZM2Bze6)


It should be remembered that 26 people were shot by the brits that day.

[C. Flower]

The Report will be published tomorrow.

It'll be a big day in Derry tomorrow.

http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=153769581

[5intheface]

According to the BBC, they are expecting 10,000 people in the Guildhall Square tomorrow to watch Cameron's statement to the Commons on a large screen.

Interesting to see the reaction to what he has to say.

[C. Flower]

Families are reading the Report in the Guildhall, Derry.

The Guardian has a minute by minute update here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/jun/15/bloodysunday-northernireland

[BrendanGalway]

Families are reading the Report in the Guildhall, Derry.

The Guardian has a minute by minute update here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/jun/15/bloodysunday-northernireland

Cheers for the good link. It has just posted that the report will be published at 3.30 today. Cameron will address the Commons at the same time.

I dont know how likely a satisfactory verdict is. I just cant see them laying the blame at the door of the Soldiers, Commanders and even the Political Class. (Especially since Britain is involved in two occupations in the Middle East).

The Families of Liverpool FC supporters have tried for decades also to get Satisafaction and Prosecutions for the Hillsboro disaster. They are still trying. Accountability may be the Worlds rarest substance.

[C. Flower]

Thanks Sidewinder.

This French documentary has some fascinating footage from the day.
YouTube- The Ulster Troubles (Part 18 of 24) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yxlVlAPzo4)

"It was sheer unadulterated murder. Nearly all the dead were shot in the back"

Coroner.

[Lapsedmethodist]

I worked with an old (55 yrs old ) para when in North Africa in the '80's and he said that Paras don't do anything without having been given orders. He had experience in Cyprus of having been told to beat old men , women and children. His take on Bloody Sunday was simple... they were told to shoot.

[C. Flower]

I worked with an old (55 yrs old ) para when in North Africa in the '80's and he said that Paras don't do anything without having been given orders. He had experience in Cyprus of having been told to beat old men , women and children. His take on Bloody Sunday was simple... they were told to shoot.

Thanks for that, Lapsed. The only question in my mind ever was how far up it went, and I don't have much doubt about that.

[mutley]

then surely it should be those who gave the orders that should be facing prosecution?

I wonder is the timing of the 2 billion to victims of PIRA victims, an attempt to soften the blow for Unionists, that the bloody Sunday victims were unlawfully murdered?

[C. Flower]

then surely it should be those who gave the orders that should be facing prosecution?

I wonder is the timing of the 2 billion to victims of PIRA victims, an attempt to soften the blow for Unionists, that the bloody Sunday victims were unlawfully murdered?

That was the Appalling Vista.



Reports from Derry today
http://www.u.tv/News/Bloody-Sunday-families-read-report/ee4d59ab-069f-40e9-a72c-a0deccb3c905

[C. Flower]

[/URL]

Eammon McCann wrote this very good summary in 1998

[URL="http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr216/mccann.htm"]http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr216/mccann.htm (http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr216/mccann.htm)



On 22 January an anti-internment march in Armagh was scattered by British soldiers firing CS gas and rubber bullets. On the same day a march to a newly opened prison camp at Magilligan in County Derry was beaten and kicked into disarray by soldiers, including paratroopers bussed in from near Belfast. Civil rights leaders complained about soldiers putting the boot in. But as far as Faulkner's far right critics were concerned, he was still pussyfooting around.
As Armagh and Magilligan marchers nursed their bruises on the way home, the Grand Amalgamated Committee of the Orange Order, the Royal Black Preceptory and the Apprentice Boys of Derry met in Lurgan and issued a threat to organise Orange marches if a stop wasn't put to the anti-internment protests: 'In the absence of a clear demonstration of [the ban's] effectiveness, the government can hardly expect our people to observe it.'
At Stormont the following Tuesday, 25 January, Ulster Unionist MPs Robert Mitchell and John Laird defied the party whip and voted for a motion jointly proposed by Craig and Paisley condemning the application of the ban to parades by 'Loyal orders'. On the same evening the Derry branch of the Democratic Unionists called for action against the Bogside-Creggan - 'The queen's writ must run in all parts of our city' - and announced a 'prayer meeting' in Guildhall Square the following Sunday at 3pm to coincide with the scheduled arrival of the march. The statement ended with a plea: 'Where are the men at the top? Why are they so silent? What are they waiting for?'
The following evening Mr Craig told a packed rally at the Apprentice Boys Hall in Derry that Loyalists 'must find new leaders and go into action'. He announced a series of demonstrations to begin the following week, to culminate in a 'monster rally' in Belfast on 18 March - 1972 would be 'Loyal Ulster's year of decision'. At 8.30 the following morning the first two RUC men to lose their lives in Derry in the Troubles were killed in a Provo ambush at the edge of the no go area. There was now even more intense outrage in the calls for harsher security action. As the two policemen lay dying, Faulkner was en route to London, possibly ruminating on the meeting of the Stormont Joint Security Committee which he had chaired the previous night. It had been attended by the general officer commanding British troops in the North, Lieutenant-General Harry Tuzo, RUC Chief Constable Graham Shillington, junior home affairs minister John Taylor and a British government official. It is likely, to put it no higher, that the handling of the Derry march had been the main item on the agenda. In London Faulkner met for more than a hour with Prime Minister Heath before flying home.
The following morning, Friday 28 January, Heath presided at a meeting of his cabinet's defence and overseas committee, attended by Home Secretary Reginald Maudling, Defence Secretary Lord Carrington, Leader of the Commons William Whitelaw, and the joint chiefs of staff. This group, minus the joint chiefs of staff, also constituted the cabinet's Northern Ireland committee. It is likely that the Derry march featured at this meeting too - later, during the Commons debate in April 1992 on presentation of the Widgery Report, Heath revealed that 'cabinet ministers' had been been aware of the plans for handling the Derry march.
The next day, 29 January, the RUC and British army issued a joint statement:
'Experience this year has already shown that attempted marches often end in violence and [sic] must have been foreseen by the organisers. Clearly, the responsibility for this violence and the consequences of it must rest fairly and squarely on the shoulders of those who encourage people to break the law. The security forces have a duty to take action against those who set out to break the law.' That afternoon the Democratic Unionists announced the cancellation of their 'prayer meeting', saying, 'We have been assured that the civil rights march will be halted by force if necessary. We are prepared to give the government a final opportunity to demonstrate their integrity and honour their promise, but warn that if they fail in this undertaking they need never again ask Loyalist people to forfeit their basic right of peaceful and legal assembly.'

[BrendanGalway]

From the Link above



Relatives inside the Guildhall, who have been reading the report, are at the window with their thumbs up. They seem to have got what they wanted. That's why the crowd is cheering.


I take it back. This could be it!

[mutley]

Looks like it is going to be blamed on the Para's being out of control, not on any orders given. how predictable

[BrendanGalway]

Cameron says the conclusions are that what happened was unjustified and unjustifiable. "It was wrong." The first shot was fired by the British army.

In no case was any warning given by soldiers, Cameron says.

None of the casualties was posing a threat of death or serious injury, Cameron says.

Cameron says he is "deeply sorry".



About Damn Time!!

[mutley]

Not premediated apparently

Ford and McGuinness just being excused

[BrendanGalway]

Cameron says the responsibility for Bloody Sunday lies with the soldiers



So it goes no further. That was always on the cards I suppose.

[mutley]

So it goes no further. That was always on the cards I suppose.

Yeah, that was the extent of Savilles remit

[mutley]

Harman, asking what is the situation regarding immunity from prosecution

[mutley]

Prosecution decisions should be independant, and fall on the Director of Public prosecutions for Northern Ireland

On Immunity, The AG in 1999 stated that witness' would not be used to predujice them in the event of a criminal investigation

[BrendanGalway]

Very Interesting Statement :



I've just been handed a copy of the 60-page summary of the report. Here are the final two sentences :

"What happened on Bloody Sunday strengthened the Provisional IRA, increased nationalist resentment and hostility towards the army and exacerbated the violent conflict of the years that followed. Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for the bereaved and the wounded, and a catastrophe for the people of Northern Ireland. "


And yet the same Army continues to occupy Iraq and Afganistan giving rise to exactly what is described above. Either you learn from History or you are doomed to repeat it.

[Lapsedmethodist]

then surely it should be those who gave the orders that should be facing prosecution?

I wonder is the timing of the 2 billion to victims of PIRA victims, an attempt to soften the blow for Unionists, that the bloody Sunday victims were unlawfully murdered?

But that's the big question. Who gave the orders ? Jackson ? If he did you can forget it because he went on to be the big cheese!!

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The other ancient lesson about any army is also on show ... they'll hang a couple of squaddies out to dry and the officers who did the old army trick of slamming a boot down to countermand a verbal order at a briefing will walk away.

Bets on the highest rank responsible going no higher than a Non-Commissioned Officer?

[mutley]

But that's the big question. Who gave the orders ? Jackson ? If he did you can forget it because he went on to be the big cheese!!

These are the questions that will not be answered.
Judging by the response at the Guild Hall, The relatives are happy, and that is the main thing.

[Lapsedmethodist]

These are the questions that will not be answered.
Judging by the response at the Guild Hall, The relatives are happy, and that is the main thing.

Exactly. Personally I wouldn't ask the British for anything, but that's just me.

[disability student]

I worked with an old (55 yrs old ) para when in North Africa in the '80's and he said that Paras don't do anything without having been given orders. He had experience in Cyprus of having been told to beat old men , women and children. His take on Bloody Sunday was simple... they were told to shoot.

I had never forgotten an incident with para's back in ealy's 1990's as we were travelling up to Donegal in a coach. There was only 4 men in the coach and the rest were women. Once we arrived at the checkpoint, one of the para's entered the bus and saw only 4 men in the coach. He was suspicious and spoke to his commanding officer.

Then all 4 men including me were ordered out of the bus and was told to bring any bags out in the open. Luckily, i just spoke to one of the soldiers that i am deaf. Then after a discussion with a commanding officer, i was allowed to return to the coach.

What i saw next was horrible, the para's threw everywhere all their clothes and stuff out of three (3) men's bag. Then they told the three men to collect their clothes/stuff and put them back in the bag. I was incandant and full of rage with the para's & called them various names.One of the women in the coach prevented me from going further. She said to me be careful because one of her friends in Fermanagh was raped by a para in boozing spree. They might do that to any women in the coach. So i had to stop and think of others.

It was absolutely disgraceful and sheer arrogance from the para's. They knew that they can do what they want. They also knew that they would be backed by their commanding officer in any situation.

[toxic avenger]

The report says the killings were not pre-meditated, and yet acknowledges that the soldiers were liars. I'm not sure how the conclusion that it was not pre-meditated can be safely arrived at.

[C. Flower]

Widgery Report being ripped up outside the Guildhall. I'm glad that the relatives feel vindicated.

These were life changing events that profoundly changed the way that people saw the world, politics and social reality and that influenced their actions permanently.

[Lapsedmethodist]

I had never forgotten an incident with para's back in ealy's 1990's as we were travelling up to Donegal in a coach. There was only 4 men in the coach and the rest were women. Once we arrived at the checkpoint, one of the para's entered the bus and saw only 4 men in the coach. He was suspicious and spoke to his commanding officer.

Then all 4 men including me were ordered out of the bus and was told to bring any bags out in the open. Luckily, i just spoke to one of the soldiers that i am deaf. Then after a discussion with a commanding officer, i was allowed to return to the coach.

What i saw next was horrible, the para's threw everywhere all their clothes and stuff out of three (3) men's bag. Then they told the three men to collect their clothes/stuff and put them back in the bag. I was incandant and full of rage with the para's & called them various names.One of the women in the coach prevented me from going further. She said to me be careful because one of her friends in Fermanagh was raped by a para in boozing spree. They might do that to any women in the coach. So i had to stop and think of others.

It was absolutely disgraceful and sheer arrogance from the para's. They knew that they can do what they want. They also knew that they would be backed by their commanding officer in any situation.

The para I knew told me a story about how he'd been told to put his rifle gainst a wall and beat an old man. He said that he kept saying to the old man "stay down stay down " but the old man kept getting up! As long as the old man kept getting up, he couldn't stop hitting him as the officer was watching.

[Lapsedmethodist]

The report says the killings were not pre-meditated, and yet acknowledges that the soldiers were liars. I'm not sure how the conclusion that it was not pre-meditated can be safely arrived at.

There's not much doubt that it begins and ends with Jackson. "Premeditated" is a bit strong for an order probably given just before they were let loose, and carries implications of something hatched in Westminister.
You just need to read Norman Dixons "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence' to see that you don't need conspiracies to explain things.

[toxic avenger]

There's not much doubt that it begins and ends with Jackson. "Premeditated" is a bit strong for an order probably given just before they were let loose, and carries implications of something hatched in Westminister.
You just need to read Norman Dixons "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence' to see that you don't need conspiracies to explain things.


It's classic Kenya, or Cyprus, or Aden, teach the natives a lesson. Free Derry was a standing affront to the sovereignty of the Crown, and a classic colonial 'lesson' was served. I have very little doubt, though it can't be proved, that the Paras were deployed that day for that very reason. The bullets fired from the city walls above by the Royal Anglians only tend to confirm me in the suspicion that this had been prepared for.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I had the honour of speaking with a military historian (Crimean War specialist) and an extraordinary man. He died unfortunately last year but I remember having a pint with him and discussing various bits of military history and he told me a story from when he was a 20 year old subaltern with the Dragoons I think in India in the last days of the Raj.

He said in all his time as an officer he only had to give one order in anger and that was when a large and fairly belligerent crowd started gathering and the stones started to come over.

He formed his men up and as he related it himself he gave his one order given in anger;

"F-f-f-fix bayonets!"

Luckily the crowd panicked and dispersed in rapid fashion and he was able to rejoin his company.

But something similar happened which kicked off the violence in India and there again it was down to an infantry Major who panicked and ordered his men to open fire on a crowd. Exact same thing as Bloody Sunday.

It was weird talking to someone who had pretty much been in that situation and got lucky.

[toxic avenger]

I had the honour of speaking with a military historian (Crimean War specialist) and an extraordinary man. He died unfortunately last year but I remember having a pint with him and discussing various bits of military history and he told me a story from when he was a 20 year old subaltern with the Dragoons I think in India in the last days of the Raj.

He said in all his time as an officer he only had to give one order in anger and that was when a large and fairly belligerent crowd started gathering and the stones started to come over.

He formed his men up and as he related it himself he gave his one order given in anger;

"F-f-f-fix bayonets!"

Luckily the crowd panicked and dispersed in rapid fashion and he was able to rejoin his company.

But something similar happened which kicked off the violence in India and there again it was down to an infantry Major who panicked and ordered his men to open fire on a crowd. Exact same thing as Bloody Sunday.

It was weird talking to someone who had pretty much been in that situation and got lucky.

Except, of course, there was no panic on Bloody Sunday. The situation was no different than they had experienced many times over the previous year. The manner of the killings of Jim Wray, shot in the back on the ground, already having been mortally wounded, or the deaths of Barney McGuigan and Paddy Doherty, described in my earlier post, clearly show cool, calm, methodical executions, not panicked over-reaction or soldiers 'gone berserk'. They were cool as a cucumber, almost done as if for sport, and again indicate premeditation.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Yes. I wouldn't attempt to portray Bloody Sunday as anything other than what it was ... a load of squaddies pump-primed by officers and let loose on civilians. It should never happen and if such a situation was to arise then the discipline should come from the army.

There's no doubt in my mind at all that there was intent that day to go deliberately over the top and I think it was a reflection of the level of panic among middle level and senior officers that discipline broke down. Its a stain on the British army and not the last one of that kind either.

[C. Flower]

Except, of course, there was no panic on Bloody Sunday. The situation was no different than they had experienced many times over the previous year. The manner of the killings of Jim Wray, shot in the back on the ground, already having been mortally wounded, or the deaths of Barney McGuigan and Paddy Doherty, described in my earlier post, clearly show cool, calm, methodical executions, not panicked over-reaction or soldiers 'gone berserk'. They were cool as a cucumber, almost done as if for sport, and again indicate premeditation.

I have no doubt that you're right and my personal view is that it was a cabinet level decision and authorised by the P.M. Of course, other explanations are possible, but highly unlikely. As Lapsed said, the Paras are a disciplined force. There was nothing chaotic about the demeanour of the way they went in.

The sheer ready brass-neck lying after it happened also says a lot. It was meant to teach a lesson, drive people off the streets and marginalise resistance, but it was also important to them to limit and contain the outrage in Britain.

[mutley]

A bit long winded for me but Niall Ó Dochartaigh via Slugger, has allowed free access to an academic article on Bloody Sunday


http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a919384724&fulltext=713240928


This article provides an alternative interpretation of the political and military decision-making process, challenging key elements in the analysis in the existing literature. By contrast with existing accounts, it argues that the Bloody Sunday operation was a calculated plan devised at a very high level to stage a massive and unprecedented confrontation that would disrupt and shatter an established policy of security force restraint in the city of Derry. It argues further that the operation that day emerged from an intense internal struggle to shape security policy that reflected deep divisions within the security forces,

[C. Flower]

A bit long winded for me but Niall Ó Dochartaigh via Slugger, has allowed free access to an academic article on Bloody Sunday


http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a919384724&fulltext=713240928
,


Very good stuff on what happened inside the army but pretty well ignores the political bosses in London.

Kitson, Britain's main counter-insurgency expert, was always believed to be a key figure. He brought in methods used in Malaysia.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/para-boss-should-have-sorted-bloody-sunday-13905008.html




The "worried" commander of Paratroopers who killed 14 civilians on Bloody Sunday was berated by his boss for not pushing harder into the Bogside no-go area, even though it would have led to more deaths. The revelation is made by General Sir Mike Jackson, the former head of the British Army, in his newly published autobiography.
He reveals that in the aftermath of the 1972 killings, Brigadier Frank Kitson "brutally" told Col Derek Wilford that having got so far, he should have pushed on to "sort the whole bloody mess out".
Jackson, who was then adjutant to Wilford and had been by his side on Bloody Sunday, says his boss was feeling "bruised, battered and worried about what had happened in Londonderry" when Kitson came to see him in Belfast.
At the time Kitson was one of three regional brigade commanders in Northern Ireland but Jackson describes him as "the sun around which the planets revolved, and he very much set the tone for the operational style".
Brigadier Kitson (later General), described as an incisive military thinker, had written a book called Low Intensity Operation, detailing techniques to deal with insurgents and guerrillas, based on his experiences in British colonies including Cyprus and Malaya.
Jackson recalls greeting Kitson before ushering him to see Col Wilford and leaving the two alone.
"Though Frank Kitson was a brusque man, he knew his soldiering. He would have understood that Derek Wilford was feeling bruised, battered and worried about what had happened...
"Kitson has a very distinct nasal voice, so it would have been difficult not to overhear what he was saying even if I had been trying not to."
He says Kitson began: "'Well Derek, you'd better tell me what happened'. So I heard the Colonel describe the snatch operation across the containment line into 'Free Derry'.
"Kitson was generally supportive, but when Wilford had finished, he offered a trenchant comment. 'What I don't understand is why, having got that far in, you didn't go on and sort the whole bloody mess out'."
Jackson adds: "Kitson expressed himself pretty brutally, but he had a point. There was no doubt that we could have gone on to retake the 'no-go' area, though this would almost certainly have resulted in more deaths."




http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/054.html

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2005/09/professor-paul-wilkinson-frank-kitson.html

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/para-boss-should-have-sorted-bloody-sunday-13905008.html#ixzz0qxG0lVcR






Much evidence has emerged in recent years of the dissatisfaction felt by some senior military commanders in Northern Ireland, including Brigadier Kitson in Belfast, Colonel Wilford of the Paras and General Robert Ford with the policy of restraint that obtained in Derry in late 1971 and early 1972.60 (http://www.politicalworld.org/#EN0060) This tendency within the military was closely attuned with Unionist outrage at the continued existence of no-go areas. Unlike Tuzo and Carver, Ford had backed the introduction of Internment and had 'never really agreed' with the policy of restraint that Tuzo and Howard Smith had supported in Derry in August 1971. Interviewed in 1984, General Ford remarked of late 1971 that 'There was a lot of pressure from Stormont to take tough action and I agreed with that.'61 (http://www.politicalworld.org/#EN0061)

[C. Flower]

The Report in full and summaries are here:

http://www.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/

[C. Flower]

There's a massive amount of coverage of Bloody Sunday in the British Press today. Bloody Sunday was a profound shock to the general population in Britain when it happened. The role of the Press in general was to massage the events into some form of acceptability, and this is still the case.

The issue of prosecutions now comes up, with possible charges of perjury, murder and conspiracy to murder - the words unlawful killing and murder are not used in the Saville Report, but the events are unmistakeably described.

Saville has thankfully given some satisfaction in "clearing the names" of people who were shot. It seems to have done nothing much to resolve the issue of who directed and authorised this operation.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/henry-patterson-for-many-saville-has-fallen-short-2001518.html

[Juan Reley]

There's a massive amount of coverage of Bloody Sunday in the British Press today. Bloody Sunday was a profound shock to the general population in Britain when it happened. The role of the Press in general was to massage the events into some form of acceptability, and this is still the case.

The issue of prosecutions now comes up, with possible charges of perjury, murder and conspiracy to murder - the words unlawful killing and murder are not used in the Saville Report, but the events are unmistakeably described.

Saville has thankfully given some satisfaction in "clearing the names" of people who were shot. It seems to have done nothing much to resolve the issue of who directed and authorised this operation.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/henry-patterson-for-many-saville-has-fallen-short-2001518.html


More than 500 journalists were in Derry yesterday - it would be of interest to see how this was reported in France or Spain.

[Andrew49]

More than 500 journalists were in Derry yesterday - it would be of interest to see how this was reported in France or Spain.

France 24 (http://www.france24.com/en/20100615-Bloody-Sunday-still-haunts-victims-families)

CNN International (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/06/15/n.ireland.bloody.sunday.q.and.a/)


Ireland News. Service for global professionals. Constantly updated news and information about Ireland. EINNEWS (http://www.einnews.com/ireland/)

I can't find anything on official Spanish News site EFE (http://www.efe.com/principal.asp?opcion=0&idioma=INGLES) It seems to be subscription only.

[C. Flower]

New York Times - scathing about Widgery, but on-message that Saville and Cameron's apology has drawn a line under the events.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/opinion/16wed4.html

[Gruffalo]

While few, if any of us believe that there was no pre-meditation in play, I think the most important thing from this report is that the families have had the names of their loved ones cleared before the world and Britain can no longer credibly claim that their soldiers were peacekeepers. To see the families celebrate certainly brought a tear to my eye.

[Xray]

I welcome this report and the reaction to it. Bloody Sunday and the official sanction of it retrospectively really was a the green light for the use of military force in the solving of a civilian political dispute. It was an absolute disgrace that the state did not address this before the peace process started. They clearly had no respect for their own laws.

It would be nice to think that a similar type of closure could be reached for the families of all those that were thoughtlessly discarded in the years that followed. Let the whole truth of what happened come out. There is plenty of blame to go around.

[Xray]

But that's the big question. Who gave the orders ? Jackson ? If he did you can forget it because he went on to be the big cheese!!

If you send a Regiment like the Paras into control civilians then you are answerable for the results. Sure individuals who pulled triggers have questions to answer, but the use of a very aggressive and pumped up combat unit to police a hyped up civil rights march says it all really. It like sending the Airborne into clear the hippies from Woodstock. The Establishment in London did not jail these soldiers because the only did what they were expected to do. There was no shock in Downing street that evening.

[mutley]

I welcome this report and the reaction to it. Bloody Sunday and the official sanction of it retrospectively really was a the green light for the use of military force in the solving of a civilian political dispute. It was an absolute disgrace that the state did not address this before the peace process started. They clearly had no respect for their own laws.

It would be nice to think that a similar type of closure could be reached for the families of all those that were thoughtlessly discarded in the years that followed. Let the whole truth of what happened come out. There is plenty of blame to go around.

The green light was issued before Bloody Sunday

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/10226501.stm


The soldier who killed a 41-year-old man in Londonderry in 1971 should have been charged with murder, the chief of the RUC in the city said at the time.
A report by Chief Superintendent Frank Lagan said the shooting of William McGreanery was unlawful.
The soldier who shot him, a member of the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, said Mr McGreanery had been armed.
The Historical Enquiries Team found that he "was not carrying a firearm and he posed no threat to the soldiers".

Soldier 'A' was never prosecuted on the advice of the attorney general, who said "whether he acted wrongly or not, the soldier was at all times acting in the course of his duty".

Foyle MP Mark Durkan said he was shocked that the report expressed so clearly the view that "soldiers were effectively immune from prosecution for murder for killings carried out while on duty".
"I am meeting An Taoiseach Brian Cowen TD this afternoon and I will present him with a copy of the HET report," he said.

"I will also be seeking to register and record these findings in parliamentary terms at Westminster and secure the redress that the McGreanery family deserves."

[moss]

There's not much doubt that it begins and ends with Jackson. "Premeditated" is a bit strong for an order probably given just before they were let loose, and carries implications of something hatched in Westminister.
You just need to read Norman Dixons "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence' to see that you don't need conspiracies to explain things.

Was Jackson in charge for 3 days in Ballymurphy 6 months previously when the killed 11 civilians ?

http://ballymurphymassacre.com/

To suggest Bloody Sunday was anything other than a pre-meditated slaughter is wrong.

Internment Introduced 9th August 1971

9th-11th August 1971 - 11 civilians killed in Ballymurphy

30th Jan 1972 Civil Rights march highlighting the injustice of internment 13 civilians killed.

Saville is another white wash, just this time the brits admit they gunned down innocent civilians.

Cameron and G.Campbell say lets draw a line under it. I wonder why that is ?

[Xray]

Was Jackson in charge for 3 days in Ballymurphy 6 months previously when the killed 11 civilians ?

http://ballymurphymassacre.com/

To suggest Bloody Sunday was anything other than a pre-meditated slaughter is wrong.

Internment Introduced 9th August 1971

9th-11th August 1971 - 11 civilians killed in Ballymurphy

30th Jan 1972 Civil Rights march highlighting the injustice of internment 13 civilians killed.

Saville is another white wash, just this time the brits admit they gunned down innocent civilians.

Cameron and G.Campbell say lets draw a line under it. I wonder why that is ?


I think calling it a white wash is going too far. Saville can only deal with the evidence in front of it. If no evidence was found that showed that orders were given higher up what else can they do? It is quite possible an order was given by Heath, but the only evidence is likely to be the word of people who will not help or are dead now. Who knows or can ever now know? The fact that the people were illegally killed and that it was then covered up has been exposed and admitted, that is to be welcomed. A British PM accepted responsibility for the UK and the government and apologised. I think you have to accept that. There is a limit to how much truth can ever be exposed by investigations.

I think a line should be drawn under all the killings of the troubles. How you draw that line to the satisfaction of those accepted is only something that they can answer. The question of what action DPPs take is not a righly political question, but then we have politically decided to draw lines under other crimes for the sake of peace. We need to draw a line somewhere and sometime and accept that nobody was all right or all wrong.

[BrendanGalway]

In the aftermath of this report, Ive noticed that some Unionists and Conservative MPs, including Cameron, are openly suggesting that no one should be prosecuted for what happened. Its Understandable though they would never admit do it. Cameron cant call for Prosecutions because not only would it implicate some Heavyweight British figures, it would open the flood-gates to a rash of prosecutions over Killings of civilians in Britains many theaters of War.

Its the phrasing that interests me. Its like they are telling us because it happened a few decades ago, its buried in the past. No point reopening old wounds. Let the dead rest.

Its some Concept : A Massacre has a Sell-by-Date. You either prosecute within 20 years or your Objections have gone off. Throw them away.

Im personally of the view that you cannot Murder 14 people and expect to live a Long and Happy life as a Free Man. All Soldiers who were confirmed as killing a protestor should be Hauled in front of Courts. We should not except The Nuremberg Defence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders). As well as that, whomever gave the order or Signed off on this should have their date in court also. Regardless of High the Trail leads.

Of course, some of the victims relatives may be too tired to Fight any longer and that has to be respected. But its some statement on our times that you can open fire on dozens of people in a Public area and walk away to Live your life. Cameron has talked much about the Shame of that event but Justice may never be served.

[moss]

I think calling it a white wash is going too far. Saville can only deal with the evidence in front of it. If no evidence was found that showed that orders were given higher up what else can they do? It is quite possible an order was given by Heath, but the only evidence is likely to be the word of people who will not help or are dead now. Who knows or can ever now know? The fact that the people were illegally killed and that it was then covered up has been exposed and admitted, that is to be welcomed. A British PM accepted responsibility for the UK and the government and apologised. I think you have to accept that. There is a limit to how much truth can ever be exposed by investigations.

I think a line should be drawn under all the killings of the troubles. How you draw that line to the satisfaction of those accepted is only something that they can answer. The question of what action DPPs take is not a righly political question, but then we have politically decided to draw lines under other crimes for the sake of peace. We need to draw a line somewhere and sometime and accept that nobody was all right or all wrong.

If you wish to accept the 'pumped up soldiers theory accident' blast away. You are in fine company. Gregory Campbell and David Cameron, Ian og...the list is endless.

A british pm is covering hid his countries track from one side of their mouths and apologising from the other.

I welcome the fact some of the lies the brits told about blood sunday have been exposed but I'm still sick that they have covered up other massacres and have eejits singing the 'lets draw a line under it all sure' line.

Lets not start thinking saville is the truth.......Saville is another cover up.

[Xray]

If you wish to accept the 'pumped up soldiers theory accident' blast away. You are in fine company. Gregory Campbell and David Cameron, Ian og...the list is endless.

A british pm is covering hid his countries track from one side of their mouths and apologising from the other.

I welcome the fact the lies the brits told about blood sunday have been exposed but I'm still sick that they have covered up other massacres and have eejits singing the 'lets draw a line under it all sure' line.

I accept that sending Paras in was effectively a green light to get a few kills. Proof of who made that decision is not something I am sure anyone other than the guilty can supply. Saville is not God, he cannot find out what he cannot find out.

Yes I think we should draw a line under it. What is the alternative? They were murdered, they did nothing wrong to deserve that and that is accepted. What else? Jail for the murders? Another years of courts, lies and investigations? and for every other murder in the troubles? Will everyone else admit what they did in the dark of night too?

If the British army is happy to let people serve like that in its ranks without censure that is a matter for them. It is a reflection on them not me. I don't care.

We need to try to move beyond the hatred that the actions of people like the scum of that day brought out in us. Derry needs to stop being defined by Paras. We either move on from the troubles or we pick through every detail of every bad event we went through for forty years.

At some point a line is reached and you just move on. I cant tell people who lost loved ones to move on, but personally I am moving on.

[moss]

I accept that sending Paras in was effectively a green light to get a few kills. Proof of who made that decision is not something I am sure anyone other than the guilty can supply. Saville is not God, he cannot find out what he cannot find out.

No more trials for anything then ? Let god decide. OK...


Yes I think we should draw a line under it. What is the alternative? They were murdered, they did nothing wrong to deserve that and that is accepted. What else? Jail for the murders? Another years of courts, lies and investigations? and for every other murder in the troubles? Will everyone else admit what they did in the dark of night too?

An alternative is to press for prosecutions or amnesties. Saville has said that soldiers lied. 2 options. Tell the fecken truth or get prosecuted. I want the thruth and not prosecutions but if one must precede the other then so be it.


If the British army is happy to let people serve like that in its ranks without censure that is a matter for them. It is a reflection on them not me. I don't care.

You 'don't care' that 5000 british soldiers who still serve in Ireland are murdering nutters ?? Hope all is well in the pale tonight.


We need to try to move beyond the hatred that the actions of people like the scum of that day brought out in us. Derry needs to stop being defined by Paras. We either move on from the troubles or we pick through every detail of every bad event we went through for forty years.

Yeah we do have to move on. That is very different from sweeping things under the carpet. This was pre planned slaughter. When the brits admit that then we can move on. This is not an isolated case but an example of british policy in Ireland. Gun down the natives ffs


At some point a line is reached and you just move on. I cant tell people who lost loved ones to move on, but personally I am moving on.

Enjoy your moral blindness.

[C. Flower]

In a way I find Saville more toxic that the blatant knee-jerk nonsense of Widgery.

The thing with Kitson, was they used his whole package, not just the warning massacre.
Kitson was very likely the genius behind the battery of the old man in Cyprus described by Lapsed. He was the state-of-the-art British expert in holding resistant colonials down.

The problem is that Bloody Sunday is being seen as an anomaly, instead of an always-present option for the State when it faces a challenge.

[RNU PRO]

“The Republican Network for Unity (RNU) wishes to join in applauding the families of the Bloody Sunday victims, who by their profound dignity, unbreakable determination, and unyielding commitment to justice for their slain loved ones, have wrested from a British Prime Minister, an apology and exoneration that long seemed unattainable,” said RNU spokesperson Danny McBrearty.

“Saville’s indictment of British troopers, for ‘ unjustifiable killings’ and ‘false accounts’ are polite terms for murder on Bloody Sunday, and perjury before the inquiry about those murders. The crown which regards time as no obstacle to prosecuting Republicans like Gerry McGeough on a decades old charges, must now determine whether the same rules will be applied to British Army murders and perjury.

“Bloody Sunday however did not begin and end with a few British troopers or with the once knighted, now abandoned commander who ordered them forward. Those murders were as patently ‘unjustified and unjustifiable’ when they were committed and witnessed in January 30, 1972. Both Saville and Cameron have been far more forthcoming in exonerating the innocent then in acknowledging the guilt of all but the bottom rung of the British military and political establishment.

“While premeditation and conspiracy may not be found in the pages of the report, they are clearly evident in the months leading-up to Bloody Sunday and the cover-up which followed.

“For decades the official British version presented to Westminster, Widgery and the world, was that the murdered civil rights marchers were shooting, or tossing nail bombs at restrained troopers, who in turn were forced to fire as a last resort. This tale was told before the bodies of the victims were cold. The troopers were applauded, promoted, some assigned to the SAS. Wilford was knighted and Widgery whitewashed murder and perjury.

“The clear message to these troopers and to all those in the British Army who would serve in the six counties, was that murders of Irish nationalists, even with as many witnesses as Bloody Sunday, could be committed with impunity and would be backed by the crown.

Bloody Sunday, itself came at the end of a six month period, in which the crown, staged internment, the torture of internees, and the Ballymurphy Massacre in an escalating pattern of failed repression.

“If Bloody Sunday had been limited to a few troopers and their commander, why was the truth so long stonewalled and the cover-up so doggedly continued? Why did the families of the victims have to wait so long for the truth? Meanwhile the families of many other victims of unjustified shoot-to-kill, plastic bullet, or collusion murders, continue to wait for justice.”

[Cáthasaigh]

I was thinking the same thing in regard to British double standards where Gerry McGeough's case is concerned. Fair play to Danny McBrearty for highlighting this.

[5intheface]

Actually heard a former head of British land forces in Afghanistan say the same thing that one section of the population cannot be above the law on the grounds of time elapsed and another section be subject to prosecution. He also commented that it would send a message to those in Afg that unlawful killing can escape punishment. He reckoned prosecutions must follow or the rule of law is totally compromised.

[C. Flower]

Garrett Fitzgerald write in the IT today about the reaction in the Dail to Bloody Sunday.

Essential reading, whichever side of the argument you see it from.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0619/1224272868751.html

[Andrew49]

In a way I find Saville more toxic that the blatant knee-jerk nonsense of Widgery.

The thing with Kitson, was they used his whole package, not just the warning massacre.
Kitson was very likely the genius behind the battery of the old man in Cyprus described by Lapsed. He was the state-of-the-art British expert in holding resistant colonials down.

The problem is that Bloody Sunday is being seen as an anomaly, instead of an always-present option for the State when it faces a challenge.

Garrett writes: "
..... when afterwards I brought plates into the kitchen a woman said to me “Isn’t it great that so many are joining?” “Joining what?”, I asked, bemused. “The IRA, of course,” another woman answered. It was clear that the killings were already destabilising the North – and our State also, as we saw on returning to Dublin. When we stopped en route we saw on the news the British embassy on Merrion Square in flames, as a crowd cheered on the arsonists. Might they then turn to Leinster House, I wondered, and if gardaí had not felt able to save the embassy, could they, together with the few soldiers there, protect our parliament?"


During that debate a dangerous boil was lanced. The solidarity of our democratic politicians won through, against the tide of emotion about the Derry atrocity that could so easily have overwhelmed us.

Sympathy for the dead and wounded then a realisation that their own house of corruption could also be a casualty of the aftermath of Bloody Sunday. Garrett was of course soon to be in power in the notorious 73-77 Fine Gael/Labour Coalition.

The Saville Enquiry is one massive tome but will not result in any prosecutions. And it certainly won't stop the British Army murdering and butchering unarmed people whenever and wherever unarmed people gather to resist.

This report will, like a couple of recent reports, eventually be consigned to some shelf in a dark corner to gather dust. That's the way things are done on this island.

[C. Flower]

I'm blatantly going to steal and cross post Merle Haggard's post from over yonder as one of the few things I read to puncture the carefully blown up balloon of guff that is the Saville phenomenon.

Although i havent had a chance to read the whole report im given to understand it was denied access to British cabinet papers of the time and other documents which it believes to exist , and that it admits it reaches it conclusions upon the evidence which its been permitted to review , not upon the evidence it was not permitted to review . However whats abundantly apparent is the British parachute regiment did not unilaterally decide it would send itself into derry for the day . However the saville report would have us believe it somehow did without specifying how , that the decision to send them in can be laid on the shoulders of a mid ranking officer in the overall British military establishment - Wilford . To me thats simply preposterous . An insult to our intelligence . I also dont believe for a moment the British made any type of monumental blunder or that the paras were sent in to kill a few paddies to teach them a lesson . I believe such analyses are completely inane . Its my belief the paras were sent in to commit a massacre for political reasons and to effect and determine a political outcome which would then be managed .
Its also my belief that its not just the brits who are telling lies but figures on the nationalist side also . For example the man who organised the march , John Hume , deciding at the very last minute hed not be attending and staying in his home while the whole tragedy played out just a few hundred yards away ? what was that about ? His explanation of psychic premonition is not believable , much less a justifiable excuse for his dereliction of political leadership as a crises and tragedy unfolded . And the notion that the provos just sat like doves , unarmed in the background of a march that was being heavily signalled would be firmly dealt with ? sorry , dont believe a word of that either .
In my view all thats been attained is what the families of the dead wanted , their loved ones murderers to admit their loved ones were inncoent . But absolutely nothing else . Saville is a massively expensive cover up and the brit apologies are as hollow and fraudulent now as widgery was . And the standard of Irish analysis today is as sh*t as ever .
__________________


I don't have Merle's knowledge of the players and events. But what we have been presented with in Saville's conclusions is a cartoon cut out, which doesn't answer any of the real questions.


Nick Ross gives the view that squaddies should not be prosecuted for sins of Cabinet Ministers and Generals, but prosecutions of any kind are surely the only way to keep any pressure on for the truth on chain of command ? For that reason, I think its unlikely they will happen.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/20/bloody-sunday-saville-inquiry

[disability student]

I recalled that a certain army major was shot dead inside the bogside walls of freederry few months or weeks before Bloody Sunday happened. It was the first time that an army officer major was shot there as i can't recall his name.

It may have cause a retaliation or perhaps a revenge for they have done to their officers. Perhaps it had highlighted the tensions to a new level not seen before.

Anyway Para 1 has a reputation that had gone before them..Cyprus et al. I wonder why did the British govt/Ministry of Defence elected them to go 'tour' to Northern Ireland. It had gone wonders for the ira recruitment as it soared to their highest level in terms of members. I knew a deaf guy from Armagh as he carried a home made bomb to the RUC station without knowing it. Ira used him as a bait and even supported him when sentenced to prison. They even turned up at his mother funeral when his request for release was denied by the prison service. Now he was/is nervous health wreck with 10 different medications to manage his health. It was unbelievable that the 'troubles' didn't go him any good except for bad health that he is in.

[C. Flower]

Does anyone think that there may have been a deliberate strategy to drive people in to the arms of the IRA and away from the Officials, who were seen as Communists and the Civil Rights Movement that would have had far more support from outside allies ?

Or for any other reason ?

[angela's ashes]

Does anyone think that there may have been a deliberate strategy to drive people in to the arms of the IRA and away from the Officials, who were seen as Communists and the Civil Rights Movement that would have had far more support from outside allies ?

Or for any other reason ?


The main thing about the Saville Report is that the families seem happy with the end result.

[jimmymalone]

Hubris said...

I had two interesting conversations about Bloody Sunday with two individuals who had British Army connections

the first was with an Ex-Paratrooper who I got to know well while working with him - we rarely discussed his time in Northern Ireland but when we did I was impressed with his understanding of the politics and the situation overall - it was he that first proposed the idea that the NI situation meant that NI became a very useful training ground for the Army as well as it being a useful excuse for the enactment of anti-'terrorist' legislation which helped cow the public and which conveniently allowed the security forces to monitor the activities and communications of many non-NI related political groups

anyway he maintained that within the Para regiment, members of the regiment steadfastly asserted that they HAD been fired on that day, which caused the soldiers to attack the crowd quite viciously, believing that the crowd had first attacked them.

At the time I still had my doubts as to the honesty of the Para regiments claims of being fired upon.

a number of years later I frequented a bar in Germany which was a hang-out for off-duty British soldier. I struck up a friendship with a guy who it later transpired was the son of a one-time officer in the Royal Green Jacket regiment, which were used as 'sharpshooters'. The RGJ were stationed in NI in 72.

He told me that his father had got into some trouble in 72 because of some questions he had been asking which disturbed some high-up officers in his regiment.

The father had heard some members of the regiment claiming that some RGJ members were stationed on some roof-tops nearby on the day of Bloody Sunday, but when he went to check on this there appeared to be no official record of any members of the regiment being on active patrol/duty on that day in the vicinity of the incident.

However his sources were adamant that the RGJ were there that day and that they had fired shots. He approached fellow officers of the regiment with his concerns that he could find no official record of any incident involving RGJ members despite there being much talk in the mess confirming that they were there - he was told to shut up and mind his own business if he knew what was good for him.

The son told me that in a conversation he had with his father, it became evident that his father believed that it was members of his own RGJ regiment who fired on the Paratrooopers that day - that they were under secret orders to provoke the Paras into attacking the crowd at the march. His father believed that there were 'elements within the 'security apparatus'' who wanted to inflame the situation so as to provoke the republican side in reaction that would eventually lead to open warfare between the two sides.


http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2010/02/led-zeppelin-and-clockwork-orange.html

I just came across this interesting post on another website recently? I'm not sure what to make of it. Could elements within the British security forces have deliberately provoked this reaction from the paratroopers, in order to provoke a Nationalist backlash?

[Sidewinder]

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2010/02/led-zeppelin-and-clockwork-orange.html

I just came across this interesting post on another website recently? I'm not sure what to make of it. Could elements within the British security forces have deliberately provoked this reaction from the paratroopers, in order to provoke a Nationalist backlash?

One thing which seems to be missing from Saville - not had a chance to wade through it yet - but tales from my youth and some forensic testimony during Saville I think quite clearly showed that some of the dead and some of the bulletholes in walls of houses in the Bog could only have come from the Walls where IIRC the Royal Anglians were stationed. The Paras were most definitely not the only British troops to have fired shots that day.

There were also persistent rumours that the night of Bloody Sunday there was a massive brawl in the mess of Army base in Ballykelly as other regiments were furious with what the Paras had done and gave them a hiding for it. The Paras would be gone the next day but the other regiments would have to live with the backlash.

Unfortunately Saville is increasingly looking like another cover-up. Maybe the Brits hoped that exonerating the dead and declaring them innocent would be sufficient to lock Bloody Sunday up in a box forever - and certainly it's the main thing the families wanted - but on reflection since Tuesday more and more niggling doubts and questions are starting to creep in. Saville isn't the full and complete picture.

[C. Flower]

Would the posters on this thread mind if these posts are merged or copied on the Saville Report thread as they relate closely to the last posts on that thread ?

[Cáthasaigh]

Regarding the OP, I think the scenario outlined is very plausible, I have never bought the story that the blame lay at the low, on-the-ground level. I believe that Bloody Sunday was an example of British 'conflict management' geared towards shifting the dynamic from mass street protest to the more manageable clandestine, armed activity which was easier to manipulate and misdirect.

[C. Flower]

There was also the issue of driving home the "officials/provos" split, the officials being perceived as Communists.

[C. Flower]

Worth remembering the miners in Britain were striking the same year and the British establishment felt less than 100% secure of their future.

MERGED WITH Did some members of British security forces deliberately fire on the paratroopers on Bloody Sunday?

[Béal na Bláth]

Bloody Sunday paratroopers attack Saville report as 'fundamentally flawed' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/7841890/Bloody-Sunday-paratroopers-attack-Saville-report-as-fundamentally-flawed.html)



In an extraordinary fight back against the inquiry’s finding that the shooting of 14 unarmed civilians was “unjustifiable” the Paras accused Lord Saville of coming to “subjective and inaccurate conclusions”.

In a letter passed to The Daily Telegraph on behalf of 35 former members of 1st Bn The Parachute Regiment present on Bloody Sunday they wanted it to be known that we have no desire that the report’s finding be now buried and forgotten.

[C. Flower]

Bloody Sunday paratroopers attack Saville report as 'fundamentally flawed' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/7841890/Bloody-Sunday-paratroopers-attack-Saville-report-as-fundamentally-flawed.html)


Good for them. They appear to want to tell the truth although they will very likely get into trouble for it.

1. The Saville Report has presented a story concocted out of cherry-picked pieces of evidence ("men out of control, bad local commander")

2. They were fired on.

3. They won't let this be hushed up


The role of Provisionals, McGuinness and Hume should all be open to view.




In an extraordinary fight back against the inquiry’s finding that the shooting of 14 unarmed civilians was “unjustifiable” the Paras accused Lord Saville of coming to “subjective and inaccurate conclusions”.

In a letter passed to The Daily Telegraph on behalf of 35 former members of 1st Bn The Parachute Regiment present on Bloody Sunday they wanted it to be known “that we have no desire that the report’s finding be now buried and forgotten”.


This is because we believe the inquiry as convened was fundamentally flawed and its conclusions based upon a subjective interpretation of only some of the evidence adduced before it.”

It said Lord Saville “chose one position and cherry picked his evidence to support it” and rejected the soldier’s evidence that they came under fire.
The soldiers came to the defence of their commanding officer, Lt Col Derek Wilford accusing Lord Saville of a “cynical exercise” to blame a senior rank to avoid condemning junior soldiers.
The letter also attacks Martin McGuinness saying “a more untruthful and unreliable witness would be hard to find”. Mr McGuinness, Northern Ireland’s Deputy First Minister and self-confessed Provisional IRA commander on Bloody Sunday, was accused by Lord Saville of carrying but apparently not using a Thompson machine gun on the day.
The Saville report said the men from Support Company, 1 Para, “lost their self-control” on Jan 30, 1972 and then “put forward false accounts to justify their firing” when they gave evidence.
But the report, that was released last Tuesday, “totally ignored” the evidence of soldiers who said they had come under fire, said the letter.
“Clear and consistent eye witness accounts were discounted and all these people branded as liars.
“Any purely objective assessment of all the evidence would conclude that the truth was difficult, if not impossible, to establish to the satisfaction of all.”
Without the participation of the Provisional IRA in giving evidence the complete truth could never be established”.
Lord Saville’s failure to make any reference to the IRA’s role was “not surprising” as “to do so would be to highlight to the British tax payer that the inquiry was ill conceived and incapable of establishing the facts before a single pound coin had been spent, let alone well over £200 million of them”.
While it admitted “mistakes” were made on the day it asked why out of the “hundreds” of riots 1 Para had witnessed did soldiers use live rounds on Bloody Sunday?

[C. Flower]

Good for them. They appear to want to tell the truth although they will very likely get into trouble for it.

1. The Saville Report has presented a story concocted out of cherry-picked pieces of evidence ("men out of control, bad local commander")

2. They were fired on. (but by whom ?)

3. They won't let this be hushed up

The role of Provisionals, McGuinness and Hume should all be open to view.

The Kryghyz disaster last week with over 800,000 people displaced from their homes was according to the UN started by masked gunmen who shot at people on both sides. There are similar stories from the beginning of the break up of Yugoslavia.

Whoever fired on on that day wanted demonstrators off the streets and wanted a war.

[Kev Bar]

Twas the day of my younger brother's christening. No wonder the whole gig became his mega obession.
A brilliant dandy with a better blas than any Shinner.

[Andrew49]

Does anyone think that there may have been a deliberate strategy to drive people in to the arms of the IRA and away from the Officials, who were seen as Communists and the Civil Rights Movement that would have had far more support from outside allies ?

Or for any other reason ?

.. by the Fianna Fail Government / Party? Yes I think so.

This is an interesting question.

[C. Flower]

.. by the Fianna Fail Government / Party? Yes I think so.

This is an interesting question.

Was there anything in particular that they did that would make you think that ?

[Andrew49]

Was there anything in particular that they did that would make you think that ?

I remember the times (1968 and onwards) ... I was out on licence from Ferryhouse at the time and for 18 months was working for the Jesuits in Dublin. This brought me into contact with the DHAC (Dublin Housing Action Committee, Connolly Youth Movement, Sinn Fein Kevin Street, Sinn Fein Gardiner Street, Fianna Fail, Peoples Democracy, Bernadette Devlin) and even I could see the difference between both Sinn Feins ... Kevin Street and Fianna Fail were more interested in guns, ammo, smuggling ... Gardiner Street/Peoples Democracy were more interested in writing, arguing, demos. There WAS a clear divide. One was more nationalistic while the other was internationalist .... pedantically one was more interested in Irish Rebel Songs exclusively while the others were also interested in those songs but weren't averse to popular musical trends ... if you know what I mean!

[C. Flower]

I remember the times (1968 and onwards) ... I was out on licence from Ferryhouse at the time and for 18 months was working for the Jesuits in Dublin. This brought me into contact with the DHAC (Dublin Housing Action Committee, Connolly Youth Movement, Sinn Fein Kevin Street, Sinn Fein Gardiner Street, Fianna Fail, Peoples Democracy, Bernadette Devlin) and even I could see the difference between both Sinn Feins ... Kevin Street and Fianna Fail were more interested in guns, ammo, smuggling ... Gardiner Street/Peoples Democracy were more interested in writing, arguing, demos. There WAS a clear divide. One was more nationalistic while the other was internationalist .... pedantically one was more interested in Irish Rebel Songs exclusively while the others were also interested in those songs but weren't averse to popular musical trends ... if you know what I mean!

I don't have any first hand knowledge, but "The Lost Revolution" is very informative about that period. The split seemed to be very sudden and very disruptive of any political debate. The way things turned out, everything seemed to become narrowed down to an armed conflict involving a minority in a small part of the island. Perhaps that was easier to control than having people out on the streets or on strike across the whole country ?

[Andrew49]

I don't have any first hand knowledge, but "The Lost Revolution" is very informative about that period. The split seemed to be very sudden and very disruptive of any political debate. The way things turned out, everything seemed to become narrowed down to an armed conflict involving a minority in a small part of the island. Perhaps that was easier to control than having people out on the streets or on strike across the whole country ?

Sure I ended up joining Óglaigh na hÉireann (end of 1970) - thinking that the Republic wouldn't sit on the sidelines ... remember we had the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising only a few years before ... those commemorations went on for the whole year in the Industrial Schools and I was only 13/14 years old at the time ... ! By the end of the year most of us were 'Irish Republicans' or 'Republicans' approved by the church and state.

We never did invade the north ... !

[5intheface]

pedantically one was more interested in Irish Rebel Songs exclusively while the others were also interested in those songs but weren't averse to popular musical trends ... if you know what I mean!

That's a brilliant way of describing it, I'll quote that, I know I will.

[C. Flower]

Wilford: alive and well and living in Belgium:

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Photos-prove-Wilford-is-alive.6376945.jp

[C. Flower]

A documentary called "Bloody Sunday, A Derry Diary" is just starting on RTE 1

[Cáthasaigh]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__RtQMk1SpuA/TCRy-fsE-XI/AAAAAAAAAUs/w-Ee5cH3ohY/s400/DERRY+REPORT.jpg

[Andrew49]

A documentary called "Bloody Sunday, A Derry Diary" is just starting on RTE 1

Astonishing program ... required viewing with the Saville Report close-by.

Amazing how little hate, as opposed to anger, there is amongst the families of those who were murdered and those who were shot and survived. The program alone is enough for me to want prosecutions for murder to take place.

On a technical note: That's how a documentary should be made and presented.

[5intheface]

Today will see the last Bloody Sunday march in Derry today;

http://www.u.tv/News/Thousands-expected-at-last-Bloody-Sunday-march-/e4232e66-ff42-45d3-8753-016d0cba4fee

However, what prompted this post was the news of the death of Dr. Raymond McClean, the Derry GP who attended many of the injured, dying and dead on that day as well as many of the post mortem examinations. He was also the author of the 1983 book, 'The Road to Bloody Sunday'.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/mcclean.htm

A remarkable man, he also wrote of his work in Ethiopia at the time of the 1980s famines. No mention of his death last night on any news items as yet but I knew he was 'waiting on' when I watched the dramatisation again during the week where his character is shown.

Condolences to his family.

[C. Flower]

RTE are reporting on the march in Derry today -


http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0130/bloodysunday.html

[truth.ie]

A Republican Forum is reporting that the RUC/PSNI boarded the Derry to Dublin train at Coleraine and attacked those returning from today's parade. C.S gas and batons used.
One guy has his arm broke. Coleraine is a Loyalist stronghold.
GFA....Got F#ck All.

[C. Flower]

A Republican Forum is reporting that the RUC/PSNI boarded the Derry to Dublin train at Coleraine and attacked those returning from today's parade. C.S gas and batons used.
One guy has his arm broke. Coleraine is a Loyalist stronghold.
GFA....Got F#ck All.


Unbelievable. Anyone get any photos of this ?

Or is that a silly question, even in these days of phone cameras.

[Lapsedmethodist]

A Republican Forum is reporting that the RUC/PSNI boarded the Derry to Dublin train at Coleraine and attacked those returning from today's parade. C.S gas and batons used.
One guy has his arm broke. Coleraine is a Loyalist stronghold.
GFA....Got F#ck All.

http://newryrepublican.blogspot.com/2011/01/bloody-sunday-2011.html

Call me cynical but I don't believe a word of it.
I believe this however, and the other is probably a feint to draw attention away
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12318343

[C. Flower]

There has been disagreement over whether or not to end the annual marches.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12319055

[5intheface]

Today will see the last Bloody Sunday march in Derry today;

http://www.u.tv/News/Thousands-expected-at-last-Bloody-Sunday-march-/e4232e66-ff42-45d3-8753-016d0cba4fee

However, what prompted this post was the news of the death of Dr. Raymond McClean, the Derry GP who attended many of the injured, dying and dead on that day as well as many of the post mortem examinations. He was also the author of the 1983 book, 'The Road to Bloody Sunday'.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/mcclean.htm

A remarkable man, he also wrote of his work in Ethiopia at the time of the 1980s famines. No mention of his death last night on any news items as yet but I knew he was 'waiting on' when I watched the dramatisation again during the week where his character is shown.

Condolences to his family.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12322218

[Cáthasaigh]

There has been disagreement over whether or not to end the annual marches.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12319055

The report states that some of the families broke off from the parade at William St and continued on to Free Derry Corner. It fails to mention that they were accompanied by a large group of people including organisations, bands and many unaligned individuals. I went to Free Derry Corner not the Guildhall.

[truth.ie]

I first attended the Bloody Sunday Commemoration marches as a 13 year old. Then it was an illegal parade and attendees were photographed and prosecuted.
It didn't pull the crowds of today obviously.
I always assumed it was called a "Commemoration" in as to remember the victims.
Yes the quest for justice played a part but the main thrust was to remember the occasion, commemorate the victims, and highlight the continued occupation.
Which makes me wonder why it should end now. Should the anniversary not be remembered. Should it be airbrushed for political expediency?
I can help think there is some political choreoghraphy behind Cameron's "apology" and Sinn Fein's call to end the march. Feel free to call me cynical.
Similar to the SF decision in the mid 90s to paint over murals dedicated to dead IRA Vols with new murals of doves and rainbows etc.

[truth.ie]

http://newryrepublican.blogspot.com/2011/01/bloody-sunday-2011.html

Call me cynical but I don't believe a word of it.
I believe this however, and the other is probably a feint to draw attention away
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12318343
Why would Republicans want to draw attention from youth resisting in Lurgan?
Thanks for the link to Lurgan by the way.
So in 24 hours we had plastic bullets fired in Lurgan,one youth shot. C.S gas used in public transport with children on board, and a number of people badly batoned by militia with one guy with a broken arm.
And the SDLP/SF want Republicans to join the militia??

[5intheface]

I first attended the Bloody Sunday Commemoration marches as a 13 year old. Then it was an illegal parade and attendees were photographed and prosecuted.
It didn't pull the crowds of today obviously.
I always assumed it was called a "Commemoration" in as to remember the victims.
Yes the quest for justice played a part but the main thrust was to remember the occasion, commemorate the victims, and highlight the continued occupation.
Which makes me wonder why it should end now. Should the anniversary not be remembered. Should it be airbrushed for political expediency?
I can help think there is some political choreoghraphy behind Cameron's "apology" and Sinn Fein's call to end the march. Feel free to call me cynical.
Similar to the SF decision in the mid 90s to paint over murals dedicated to dead IRA Vols with new murals of doves and rainbows etc.

I think I heard that the commemoration is to continue, possibly at FD corner, but that this was to be the last full march.

[C. Flower]

I know I'm out of sync with most peoples' feelings about this, but I felt enraged by the end result of the enquiry, the way the families were locked in to City Hall, by the disgusting spin that had people accepting that the issue was not who ordered a massacre, and why, but on the "exoneration" of the victims, and about the lie that one of the perpetrators was dead. What an insult added to the injury.

[5intheface]

I know I'm out of sync with most peoples' feelings about this, but I felt enraged by the end result of the enquiry, the way the families were locked in to City Hall, by the disgusting spin that had people accepting that the issue was not who ordered a massacre, and why, but on the "exoneration" of the victims, and about the lie that one of the perpetrators was dead. What an insult added to the injury.

You're in step with plenty cf. Exoneration was a great thing for the families and no one should begrudge them that and no one should have delayed Saville for more but the fact remains, with Saville out of the way, there is more.

The 'historic' apologies from Cameron and the likes were given with one eye on Ballymurphy and the question of who ordered the action or if it was deliberate were neatly sidestepped.

[Lapsedmethodist]

I think I heard that the commemoration is to continue, possibly at FD corner, but that this was to be the last full march.

I hope it becomes a commemoration rather than a stick to keep beating the English with. None of any other innocent dead is likely to get the same attention.

[Kev Bar]

http://newryrepublican.blogspot.com/2011/01/bloody-sunday-2011.html

Call me cynical but I don't believe a word of it.
I believe this however, and the other is probably a feint to draw attention away
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12318343

That your bro there Lapsed? Bit of the mad sad zeal of the convert.

P.S. - Don't tell Sam and CF how the high-minded Eirigi's name is being taken in vain here.

[Lapsedmethodist]

Why would Republicans want to draw attention from youth resisting in Lurgan?
Thanks for the link to Lurgan by the way.
So in 24 hours we had plastic bullets fired in Lurgan,one youth shot. C.S gas used in public transport with children on board, and a number of people badly batoned by militia with one guy with a broken arm.
And the SDLP/SF want Republicans to join the militia??

Are you for real ? The police board a train and beat people up ? And not a word about it anywhere ? Calling Jim Corr... come in Jim.. I've got a conspiracy theory here needs airing !!

[Lapsedmethodist]

That your bro there Lapsed? Bit of the mad sad zeal of the convert.

P.S. - Don't tell Sam and CF how the high-minded Eirigi's name is being taken in vain here.

Anyone can set up a blog, Kev... even Newry Republicans with a one trick agenda.

[moss]

Will never come to pass imo but..



Mr Madden represents ten of the families of those shot dead and ten of the wounded.
"Following careful consideration of Lord Saville's report and its implications, we have submitted detailed representations to the Public Prosecution Service requesting that those responsible for the murders and attempted murders on Bloody Sunday be prosecuted in court," he said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12325300

[Lapsedmethodist]

Will never come to pass imo but..




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12325300

You haven't a hope Moss... they'd be handed a card... "I felt my life to be in danger" with maybe a proviso of "at the time". End of.

[moss]

I did say as much in the first line of my post. I don't really care about prosecutions, I'd prefer an honest apology and for the brits to admit to what they set out to that day.

It's not my hope lapsed, but those of the families.

My hope was that Saville wouldn't be another whitewash, which it was.

[Lapsedmethodist]

I did say as much in the first line of my post. I don't really care about prosecutions, I'd prefer an honest apology and for the brits to admit to what they set out to that day.

It's not my hope lapsed, but those of the families.

My hope was that Saville wouldn't be another whitewash, which it was.

The apology from Cameron was honest enough I thought. And I don't see how the Saville was a whitewash.... No-one was engaged in any way with violence towards the Paras was the outcome. Hard to argue with that.

[disability student]

Yeah i thought that Cameron was honest which was very unlikely coming from a Tory party leader given their past history.I think it was brave of Cameron to say it which changed my perception of him from the outset.

The Paras has a chequered history towards violence which i have had experienced at first hand in the border check points back in 1990's. That had remained since given the facts i heard various stories re the Para's actions in Germany and in Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh.

[moss]

It wash a whitewash because Heath was not only protected by Saville, he refused to answer 50 questions.
For most people that gets jail time.

The paras lied and were proven to be lying.

Everybody bar Gregory Campbell knew innocent people were gunned down that day. Saville produced nothing new.

The brits paid 300 million or so to avoid taking responsibility for deliberate armed action against a civilian population.

Some people swallowed that, you included.

[C. Flower]

The apology from Cameron was honest enough I thought. And I don't see how the Saville was a whitewash.... No-one was engaged in any way with violence towards the Paras was the outcome. Hard to argue with that.

I just did. It wasn't the Paras who were killed. Saville was a psychological operation to shift focus away from those who were responsible, onto the victims, not a genuine enquiry.

He should apologise again, for messing with peoples' minds and then put the responsible people on trial.

[mutley]

The apology from Cameron was honest enough I thought. And I don't see how the Saville was a whitewash.... No-one was engaged in any way with violence towards the Paras was the outcome. Hard to argue with that.


No one was engaged in violence, yet they were gunned down in cold blood, and no one is made accountable I'd call that a pretty sh1tty outcome

[Lapsedmethodist]

The only person who could be prosecuted is the commanding officer on the day.
He in turn could claim at his trial that he received orders which he interpreted in a way that caused him to issue his. It's hopeless, as much as you might want to see someone held personally accountable.

[C. Flower]

The only person who could be prosecuted is the commanding officer on the day.
He in turn could claim at his trial that he received orders which he interpreted in a way that caused him to issue his. It's hopeless, as much as you might want to see someone held personally accountable.

Drag them to the Hague.....:D

[Lapsedmethodist]

Drag them to the Hague.....:D

I don't think that that's an option as you have to have a case that has a chance of wining.

[Sam Lord]

Bloody Sunday, the Ongoing Cover-Up
By Eamonn McCann

http://www.counterpunch.org/





Saville avoided a conclusion that here we had not just evidence of a conspiracy to cover up the truth of the killings but clear sight of the conspiracy in action, with Michael Jackson at the heart of it.

Had this been among Saville's conclusions, Jackson would have been found to have concocted a series of lies to cover up unjustified and unjustifiable killings. In that circumstance, Cameron would not have been able to make the Commons speech which was to be hailed as a major contribution to reconciliation and healing in Ireland. For the speech to be made, the truth had to be twisted.

[Christy Walsh]

Bloody Sunday, the Ongoing Cover-Up
By Eamonn McCann

http://www.counterpunch.org/

Good article but no shocking surprises.

[toxic avenger]

As I have stated before, I believe the report was massively deficient - the idea that the whole operation wasn't sanctioned from Cabinet-level is just absurd. The Derry families were clearly very happy when it was published - their relatives' names had been cleared of wrongdoing and I'm sure that they were just completely exhausted after 30 years of trying to get Widgery overturned. But the main culprits, besides the Paras themselves, were let off the hook entirely - including Jackson and Heath himself.

[C. Flower]

It's the 40th anniversary of Bloody Sunday.
The History Show on RTE Radio 1 is discussing the events and the reaction in Dublin, with the burning of the British Embassy.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradiowebpage.html#

[Kid Ryder]

The Daily Torygraph is reporting that the Parachute Regiment are among military units being trained in 'how to contain and arrest "rioters" in a series of exercises mirroring last summers violence'. Bloody Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday on 'the Mainland' sometime?


Defence sources have confirmed that if violence were to return to British cities, especially during the Olympic Games, the Paras would be "ideally placed" to provide "short-term" support to police forces around the UK.

Such a request would have to be made by the Home Office and would have to have Prime Ministerial approval, according to the source.

Different rules apply to HM's Paddy subjects, though, as Saville has made clear...

And then, this gem:

In the past, riot training was carried out by all troops deploying to Northern Ireland where public disturbances were commonplace. But those skills have been lost following the withdrawal of troops from the streets of the province.

UK riots: paratroopers are trained in riot control - The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9046668/UK-riots-paratroopers-are-trained-in-riot-control.html)

Credit to Cedar Lounge Revolution for the steer - Paratroopers being trained in riot control for Britain (http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/paratroopers-being-trained-in-riot-control-for-britain/)

[C. Flower]

The Daily Torygraph is reporting that the Parachute Regiment are among military units being trained in 'how to contain and arrest "rioters" in a series of exercises mirroring last summers violence'. Bloody Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday on 'the Mainland' sometime?

Different rules apply to HM's Paddy subjects, though, as Saville has made clear...

And then, this gem:

UK riots: paratroopers are trained in riot control - The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9046668/UK-riots-paratroopers-are-trained-in-riot-control.html)

Credit to Cedar Lounge Revolution for the steer - Paratroopers being trained in riot control for Britain (http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/paratroopers-being-trained-in-riot-control-for-britain/)

Almost let it slip that they used the north as a training ground.

=