Things That Go Bust In the Night - Aer Arann - McInerney - Chartbusters

[C. Flower]

A thread for recording businesses going under. We can change the end of the OP each time.

Aer Arann reported as going into receivership owing 18 million in losses since 2008.

[TotalMayhem]

No more "Serving the Islands"? :(

[C. Flower]

Not much of a gap before the next one. McInerney Construction have entered Examinership.
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2010/08/17/developers-seeking-examinership-should-nama-be-worried/

[DCon]

Can we run an alternate thread on companies/individuals that should be gone were it not for NAMA

[Gruffalo]

A thread for recording businesses going under. We can change the end of the OP each time.

Aer Arann reported as going into receivership owing 18 million in losses since 2008.

Is receivership and examinership the same thing? RTÉ text said examinership (Aer Arann).

Is it not a bit harsh to say that they are going under just yet. No doubt jobs will be lost but their not dead yet.

[TotalMayhem]

Is receivership and examinership the same thing?

No, it's not:

Examinership, Receivership and Liquidation – what’s the difference? (http://www.mlaw.ie/news/examinership-receivership-and-liquidation-what-s-the-difference)

[mutley]

Is this the Airline, where the owner, was thinking about dabaling into politics?

[Gruffalo]

No, it's not:

Examinership, Receivership and Liquidation – what’s the difference? (http://www.mlaw.ie/news/examinership-receivership-and-liquidation-what-s-the-difference)

Go raibh maith agat.

[Arnold Layne]

Is this the Airline, where the owner, was thinking about dabaling into politics?

Yes, shown as a "Shining Light" on The Frontline sometime back, where he showed how a meagre teacher could become an airline magnate.

I've had some bad experiences with Aer Arann where flights have been postponed with no notice and flifgts redirected from the UK to other airports in Ireland to pick up more passengers.

I feel sorry for those that work at regional airports, especially Galway, where the business was needed. Apparently, O'Ceidigh was a prick to staff in such airports just because Aer Arann operated there.

[jinnyjoe]

Is this the Airline, where the owner, was thinking about dabaling into politics?

Is this the same guy who was on Miriam O'Callaghan a few weeks back talking about how brilliant he was and how much money he has made and Miriam giving him a great introduction. Jaysus was that the kiss of death do you think???:D:D:D

[mutley]

Is this the same guy who was on Miriam O'Callaghan a few weeks back talking about how brilliant he was and how much money he has made and Miriam giving him a great introduction. Jaysus was that the kiss of death do you think???:D:D:D

Thats the one yeah, :)

[homer]

Sympathies to all in Aer Arann and I hope the examinership is successful and that they can keep going.

[C. Flower]

Sympathies to all in Aer Arann and I hope the examinership is successful and that they can keep going.

+1, to all working there. I forgive you for the 6 hour waits between "delayed" aka missing flights.

Better late than never.

[Arnold Layne]

Not just those at aer Arann, but all those emloyed at the Regional Airports, i.e. baggage handlers cum (trained) fire brigade, that have been trained in all airline disciplines, who may have the possibilty of losing their jobs.

[C. Flower]

Bring back the National Airline.

Improved roads were the biggest threats to the Regional Airports, all the same.

When I first lived here, I had to allow 3-4 hours for a trip to the airport, now it takes 1 hour.

[Controller]

McInerney houses were a bit more expensive than his competitors, but as far as I have heard, they were better built as well

[Gruffalo]

Bring back the National Airline.

Improved roads were the biggest threats to the Regional Airports, all the same.

When I first lived here, I had to allow 3-4 hours for a trip to the airport, now it takes 1 hour.

That is a big problem for Aer Arann. How much longer can the Government justify subsidising flights from Galway to Dublin when a bus can do it in a little over 2 hours? The EU might even put a stop to it.

Aer Arann is heavily dependent on PSO's but road improvements will reduce the need for PSO's. The link up with Aer Lingus might be the saving grace for them.

[TotalMayhem]

The link up with Aer Lingus might be the saving grace for them.

Desperate times ...

*chuckles*

[DCon]

An "Irish Glass Bottle Company" was recently liquidated

http://www.vision-net.ie/FreeIrishCompanyReport?from=bar&weekNumber=-1&companyNumber=106690&companyName=THE+IRISH+GLASS+BOTTLE+COMPANY+LIMITED

[Starbuck]

The situation Aer Arann is in now is a DIRECT result of the predatory practices of Ryanair and Michael O'Leary. Aer Arann was a tiny niche competitor who irked him by having the gall to run a service from Dublin to Cork while he was trying to turn the screws on Cork Airport landing charges. His response to this little flea bite was to stomp his great big Mullingar Farmers welly on pipsqueak Aer Arann.

How'd he do that? The 'Great Free-Marketeer' applied for the PSO routes ex Kerry Airport, and got them. Thus depriving Aer Arann of a vital lifeline. He knew it would place huge financial stress on the company right away. He has his cronies in the IAA to thank for that.

Padraig O'Ceide (sp?) went to see O'Leary in the dragons den, to ask why his company was being attacked - and was famously told to 'eff off back to Galway.

Now watch what happens if this leads to Aer Aranns closure - having acheived his aim O'Leary will withdraw from Kerry, leaving the airport with no service. Or at least you can expect him to further turn the screws on the airport to give him even larger subsidies. Remember, when Aer Lingus once operated the PSO routes (they gave that up around 2000) O'Leary was never off the radio lambasting them for 'taking taxpayer subsidies'. Sheer effing hypocrisy. He's been demanding taxpayer subsidies (with threats) from every airport in europe for decades. He has now succesfully used Irish taxpayers money to destroy a small competitor, at the cost of (probably) several hundred more jobs.

If the dimwits who want Ryanair to monopolise Irish Aviation live in Kerry - I hope you get screwed to the wall.
Enjoy the bus ride to Cork when you want to fly anywhere in future.

[ang]

Well who would have guessed McInerney will hit Quinn and Anglo. McInerney blames NAMA forcing banks to cut the company overdrafts.


ANGLO Irish Bank, Bank of Ireland, Quinn Insurance and foreign lender KBC are among those likely to lose out as McInerney's Irish division goes into examinership, with the housebuilder blaming NAMA in part for its plight.


Quinn Stake:-


Quinn Insurances holds a 4.6pc stake in the company and the Quinn family has been reported to own a larger stake in the McInerney business.

[Gruffalo]

If Aer Arann goes bust it will have a ripple effect. Galway airport is almost totally dependent on them. Sligo, Donegal and Waterford are totally dependent on them. I dont know much about Sligo and Donegal airports but Galway and Waterford do not have runways long enough to take Ryanair or Aer Lingus aircraft so who is going to fill the void?

[Gruffalo]

Aer Arann are apparently in talks with investors, so that is some good news:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0827/aerarann.html

[DCon]

REO in talks with NAMA. Not good news


Real Estate Opportunities (REO), the company controlled by Johnny Ronan's Treasury Holdings, will not make payments to its lenders next week of £3.8m (€4.6m) as talks on its future continue.

The company, which owns the famous Battersea Power Station in London, has debts of £1.7bn (€2bn) with a range of lenders, among them NAMA and the Lloyds Banking group. NAMA is reviewing business plans for REO and Treasury Holdings.

REO said yesterday "significant progress'' had been made towards a financial restructuring, but gave no details. The progress has been made with the holders of the company's various loan notes, but these proposals now have to be broached with other lenders.


NAMA took possession of REO loans in May.

The loans amounted to £815m and were originally advanced by Irish Nationwide, Anglo Irish Bank, AIB and Bank of Ireland.

REO has talked up its chances of NAMA approving its business plan.

"We remain confident that NAMA will be supportive of the REO portfolio, due to the quality and location of the group's development sites as well as its income-producing assets."

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/reo-to-miss-euro46m-repayment-as-talks-continue-over-euro2bn-debt-load-2313698.html

[Starbuck]

Aer Arann are apparently in talks with investors, so that is some good news:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0827/aerarann.html

Any investor putting money into Aer Arann while O'Leary has them by the balls is crazy.

But there's a simple solution to that.
Kick Ryanair off the PSO routes, and ban them from receiving state subsidies in future. They abused the money.

O'Leary is nothing but a p1ss taker.

[Gruffalo]

Any investor putting money into Aer Arann while O'Leary has them by the balls is crazy.

But there's a simple solution to that.
Kick Ryanair off the PSO routes, and ban them from receiving state subsidies in future. They abused the money.

O'Leary is nothing but a p1ss taker.

The EU would soon put a stop to any idea of limiting competition. Due to runway size there are not too many PSO's that Ryanair can compete for anyway.


If Aer Arann is to survive it must lose it's dependence on PSO's.

[Starbuck]

I knew you'd say that, and its bollox, sorry.
Why do PSO subsidies exist??? Do you know???

Here's a clue - they don't exist to facilitate predatory practices by monolithic monopolistic airlines.

They are there to ENCOURAGE a needed service, and they do not underwrite a route.
O'Leary loses money on the route but doesn't give a flying f#@k about that. That's not why he's doing it. He has proven time and again that he will spill his own blood to wipeout ANYONE who opposes him.

If Galway was long enough for 737's he'd have applied for the PSO there too - all the quicker to see off Aer Arann.

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]I knew you'd say that, and its bollox, sorry.
Why do PSO subsidies exist??? Do you know???

Here's a clue - they don't exist to facilitate predatory practices by monolithic monopolistic airlines.

I am well aware of the reason for PSO's, despite your condescending attitude.


They are there to ENCOURAGE a needed service, and they do not underwrite a route.

It depends how you define needed. Why is a flight from Galway to Dublin necessary when a bus service will get you from city centre to city centre in nearly the same time?


O'Leary loses money on the route but doesn't give a flying f#@k about that.

Does he? Have you got the figures to back that up.


That's not why he's doing it. He has proven time and again that he will spill his own blood to wipeout ANYONE who opposes him.

No doubt he would love to see the back of Aer Arann but, there is nothing illegal about what he is doing. Therefore, regardless of your attempts to call it bollox, there is no legal way that the Government can ban Ryanair from applying for a PSO route and if they are discriminated against the EU can act.


If Galway was long enough for 737's he'd have applied for the PSO there too - all the quicker to see off Aer Arann.

If Galway runway was long enough he would have a base there and Knock and probably Shannon would be in trouble.

[jinnyjoe]

I knew you'd say that, and its bollox, sorry.
Why do PSO subsidies exist??? Do you know???

Here's a clue - they don't exist to facilitate predatory practices by monolithic monopolistic airlines.

They are there to ENCOURAGE a needed service, and they do not underwrite a route.
O'Leary loses money on the route but doesn't give a flying f#@k about that. That's not why he's doing it. He has proven time and again that he will spill his own blood to wipeout ANYONE who opposes him.

If Galway was long enough for 737's he'd have applied for the PSO there too - all the quicker to see off Aer Arann.

Nostradamus always predicted the coming of the third anti christ about now, it wouldn't be O'Leary would it!!!

[entrepreneur1979]

Is receivership and examinership the same thing? RTÉ text said examinership (Aer Arann).

Is it not a bit harsh to say that they are going under just yet. No doubt jobs will be lost but their not dead yet.

Aer Arann boss Pádraig Ó Céidigh should consult with Michael O'Leary on what to do as he is most successful, receivership is more gloomy than examinership. When a judge appoints examinership to a company to protect against its creditors the company has approx 70 days for the appointed examiner to restructure its financing juntos business plan potentially extending to a further 30 days as a result of approval by judge on restructured plan. If unsuccessful, company enters into receivership resulting in creditors taking full control of company i.e banks meaning potential loss of employees etc. Approx 80% of companies pull through examinership proccess depending on how good the person representing examinership actually is! i hope Aer Arann pull through although i can judge its competitors Ryanair wont invest to help as its cheaper to take over their routes in the event of collapse and aer lingus wont invest as they are too struggling. I must state that Michael O'Leary has introduced a low fares airline to great success and credit to him that we all must appreciate cheaper travel which he is individually responsible for, its time for aer lingus to allow him a takeover of the state airline as he would bring global travel to a minimum fare price.. I'm with Mr O'Leary, pat on back from me.

[C. Flower]

Aer Arann boss Pádraig Ó Céidigh should consult with Michael O'Leary on what to do as he is most successful, receivership is more gloomy than examinership. When a judge appoints examinership to a company to protect against its creditors the company has approx 70 days for the appointed examiner to restructure its financing juntos business plan potentially extending to a further 30 days as a result of approval by judge on restructured plan. If unsuccessful, company enters into receivership resulting in creditors taking full control of company i.e banks meaning potential loss of employees etc. Approx 80% of companies pull through examinership proccess depending on how good the person representing examinership actually is! i hope Aer Arann pull through although i can judge its competitors Ryanair wont invest to help as its cheaper to take over their routes in the event of collapse and aer lingus wont invest as they are too struggling. I must state that Michael O'Leary has introduced a low fares airline to great success and credit to him that we all must appreciate cheaper travel which he is individually responsible for, its time for aer lingus to allow him a takeover of the state airline as he would bring global travel to a minimum fare price.. I'm with Mr O'Leary, pat on back from me.

Hi and welcome, entrepreneur. I appreciate the low fares too, and hope useful routes and the jobs can be saved. There is quite a bit of money owed to the DDA I heard.

[Starbuck]

It depends how you define needed. Why is a flight from Galway to Dublin necessary when a bus service will get you from city centre to city centre in nearly the same time?
For starters the PSO route is not Galway.
They are Galway, Knock, Derry, Donegal, Sligo, Kerry.
Without the PSO support the people of those regions will have no access links to europe and beyond - except by bus. Great for encouraging tourism, and business investment - I think not. Furthermore, those airports may not be able to continue operations without the services provided by the PSO business, so you are advocating the closure of vital infrastructure in areas already deprived of structural investment.
Yours is a sterile ideology.


Does he? Have you got the figures to back that up.
I've worked in the aviation business for 30 years.
A Boeing 737 cannot make money on the kind of short thin route served out of Kerry, no matter who the hell you are. Fuel burn is too high relative to a turbo-prop, loads are restricted by runway length, and yields are pathetic.
*****************************************


No doubt he would love to see the back of Aer Arann but, there is nothing illegal about what he is doing. Therefore, regardless of your attempts to call it bollox, there is no legal way that the Government can ban Ryanair from applying for a PSO route and if they are discriminated against the EU can act.
Wrong.
The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples. Don't be so sure Micko isn't whistling in the dark right now.... 'Ryanair Profits boosted by subsidies' (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0501/1224269451828.html)



If Galway runway was long enough he would have a base there and Knock and probably Shannon would be in trouble.

Well it ain't, so tough titty. Maybe he'd like to invest in an extension? Huh. I doubt it.

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]For starters the PSO route is not Galway.

Where did I say that it was only Galway?


They are Galway, Knock, Derry, Donegal, Sligo, Kerry.

I am aware of that.



Without the PSO support the people of those regions will have no access links to europe and beyond - except by bus.

And this is where the example of Galway comes in. Galway is a little over an hour from Shannon and Knock Airports if they want to go travelling and a little over 2 hours to Dublin.

By the way the purpose of PSO's is not to link with Europe, it is to link with Dublin i.e. it is intended for regional transport not international.

I can understand the need for most of the PSO's as there is no suitable alternative but Galway is not justifiable. And Sligo is close enough to Knock if they bothered with a proper bus service i.e. only slightly longer than Dublin airport to Dublin City.


Great for encouraging tourism, and business investment - I think not.
Are you suggesting that business people and tourists dont use buses?


Furthermore, those airports may not be able to continue operations without the services provided by the PSO business, so you are advocating the closure of vital infrastructure in areas already deprived of structural investment.

I dont advocate jobs for the sake of jobs. They must have a proper purpose.


Yours is a sterile ideology.

You have a talent for hollow phraseology.


I've worked in the aviation business for 30 years.

Good for you but I will take that as an admission that you dont have the figures that I asked for.


A Boeing 737 cannot make money on the kind of short thin route served out of Kerry, no matter who the hell you are. Fuel burn is too high relative to a turbo-prop, loads are restricted by runway length, and yields are pathetic.
I don't need to live in O'Learys knickers to know his hole stinks.

You seem to think that I disagree with you as to what O'Leary's intentions are. I dont.



The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples. Don't be so sure Micko isn't whistling in the dark right now.... 'Ryanair Profits boosted by subsidies' (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0501/1224269451828.html)

You need to learn the difference between an airport subsidy and a Government PSO.



Well it ain't, so tough titty.

Wonderful way to make an argument.


Maybe he'd like to invest in an extension? Huh. I doubt it.

I also doubt it. The problem with a lack of an extension in Galway is not down to money, it is down to permission.

[Starbuck]

And this is where the example of Galway comes in. Galway is a little over an hour from Shannon and Knock Airports if they want to go travelling and a little over 2 hours to Dublin.
And what about Kerry? And Sligo? And Carrickfin?


By the way the purpose of PSO's is not to link with Europe, it is to link with Dublin i.e. it is intended for regional transport not international.
YES! - Dublin is the HUB! The GATEWAY airport to europe.


I can understand the need for most of the PSO's as there is no suitable alternative but Galway is not justifiable. And Sligo is close enough to Knock if they bothered with a proper bus service i.e. only slightly longer than Dublin airport to Dublin City.
Shut Galway airport then.
You think that'd be acceptable?


Are you suggesting that business people and tourists dont use buses?Silly comment. Choice is what's required. No, not everybody chooses the bus, for good reasons.


I dont advocate jobs for the sake of jobs. They must have a proper purpose.
Its about far more than a few airport jobs. You're being flippant.


You have a talent for hollow phraseology.

Thank you.


Good for you but I will take that as an admission that you dont have the figures that I asked for.
Do you have any numbers to prove me wrong?
You probably haven't a clue about the costs involved, and the limitations. You'll never gert real numbers from O'Leary, ********. The simple fact is the B737 burns 2.2 tonnes of JetA1 per hour. The ATR burns a quarter of that. The TP crew is 1 CCM and 2 fairly low paid pilots. The 737 is 3 CCM's plus two rather less lowly paid pilots. The landing fees are higher due weight on the 737. The navigation fees are higher on the 737. Maintenance is probably 3 to 4 times as costly on the 737 than an ATR. Every economic factor about the operation of a 737 on the Kerry/Dublin route says it's farcical. But the sheeple believe O'Leary magics money out of thin air, and believe he must be making a profit.
NOT without the subsidies my friend.


You need to learn the difference between an airport subsidy and a Government PSO.
Tell that to Micko.


I also doubt it. The problem with a lack of an extension in Galway is not down to money, it is down to permission.

But sure Micko would have the country up in arms in 5 minutes if he told the sheeple he wanted to create 1,000 jobs in Galway, but some stupid Planner was holding him up, and its the Governments fault that he's going to pay to have the Timbuktu runway extended instead.
Such petty rules are no obstacle to a great man like Mr.O'Leary. Ye aren't fit to wipe his boots!

[C. Flower]

CRH has posted a profit warning and shares are sliding - Honohan's wife is down €400,000 so far according to the Indo - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/honohans-wife-takes-euro400k-hit-as-crh-slides-2316032.html

[Nipper]

CRH has posted a profit warning and shares are sliding - Honohan's wife is down €400,000 so far according to the Indo - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/honohans-wife-takes-euro400k-hit-as-crh-slides-2316032.html

Thanks for this. Starting to get to the heart of the Rot in Irish Business . Since the days of Irish cement this company has been protected and used by a certain party. Who was always going to do well from a property boom aside from builders ?


Anyway from the article above

"The ghost of Charlie Haughey's bagman Des Traynor -- who ran the private Ansbacher bank out of CRH's offices -- continues to haunt the cement company. Traynor's widow Mary is listed as holding a massive 232,371 shares worth €2.8m. The shares were valued at nearly €8.1m three years ago."

[greengoose]

Someone doesn't like Micko! Thirty years in the airline business does that to one. ;)

I wonder why he's making loads of dosh and ALT is not? Must be budgeting for the future and buying airplanes when needed. Or whatever. :cool:

[Starbuck]

He's raking in 650M p.a. in government subsidies. He'd have gone out of business long ago if not for state handouts.
Thats the simple fact of the matter.

[disability student]

Is that the same guy who appeared at Miriam O Callaghan TV show?? He displayed no sign of nerves or his body language re financial troubles.

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]And what about Kerry? And Sligo? And Carrickfin?

What about them? I have said that not all PSO's are necessary. I didn't they were all unnecessary.


YES! - Dublin is the HUB! The GATEWAY airport to europe.

The purpose of the PSO's is to connect with Dublin City. Any airport connections are a bonus, not the objective.


Shut Galway airport then.
You think that'd be acceptable?

I think the PSO should be removed and the money put towards double tracking Galway to Athenry which would benefit far more people. I dont have access to the accounts but if they are not enough for Galway airport t survive without the PSO then so be it.


Silly comment. Choice is what's required. No, not everybody chooses the bus, for good reasons.

Well then there is a train or they can drive. Airports cost a fortune and not everywhere needs one.



Its about far more than a few airport jobs. You're being flippant.

If I am flippant then produce these figures that show that these PSO's bring massive investment into the regions. I look forward to reading your compelling evidence.



Do you have any numbers to prove me wrong?

Learn how debating works. You made a claim, I have asked you to back it up with evidence. Again you have shown that you cant.


You probably haven't a clue about the costs involved, and the limitations. You'll never gert real numbers from O'Leary, because he's a liar.

So now you accept that you are making your facts up i.e. you have no evidence to support your claims.


The simple fact is the B737 burns 2.2 tonnes of JetA1 per hour. The ATR burns a quarter of that. The TP crew is 1 CCM and 2 fairly low paid pilots. The 737 is 3 CCM's plus two rather less lowly paid pilots. The landing fees are higher due weight on the 737. The navigation fees are higher on the 737. Maintenance is probably 3 to 4 times as costly on the 737 than an ATR. Every economic factor about the operation of a 737 on the Kerry/Dublin route says it's farcical. But the sheeple believe O'Leary magics money out of thin air, and believe he must be making a profit.
NOT without the subsidies my friend.

Do you know anything about PSO's? Seriously? They exist because the airlines who operate them would not make a profit off the route otherwise. And so they would not operate the route.


Tell that to Micko.

Micko understands the difference between an airline subsidy and PSO. It is you who does not.


But sure Micko would have the country up in arms in 5 minutes if he told the sheeple he wanted to create 1,000 jobs in Galway, but some stupid Planner was holding him up, and its the Governments fault that he's going to pay to have the Timbuktu runway extended instead.
Such petty rules are no obstacle to a great man like Mr.O'Leary. Ye aren't fit to wipe his boots!

Could you put that rant in English please?

[Starbuck]

What about them? I have said that not all PSO's are necessary. I didn't they were all unnecessary.
Really? I thought your position was clear - that PSO's are fundamentally wrong in principle. And lets face it, thats the standard knee jerk response to them. So in that case - you only picked on Galway because you felt its the sole route undeserving of a PSO? Why bother, when it wasn't under discussion? The point was Ryanairs motivation in taking over the PSO in Kerry. So you've been pushing a red-herring argument all along, eh.


The purpose of the PSO's is to connect with Dublin City. Any airport connections are a bonus, not the objective.
Look, is this more red-herring guff?
Why not address the real nub of the issue? Or do you prefer semantics?


I think the PSO should be removed and the money put towards double tracking Galway to Athenry which would benefit far more people. I dont have access to the accounts but if they are not enough for Galway airport t survive without the PSO then so be it.
More about Galway. Blah Blah.
Yes, lets have high speed rail links everywhere. A great idea.
Who'll pay for them?


Well then there is a train or they can drive. Airports cost a fortune and not everywhere needs one.
I think you'll find they are cheaper than building high speed railways and buying rolling stock.


If I am flippant then produce these figures that show that these PSO's bring massive investment into the regions.

Massive? Define Massive in your terms? Its your word, I never used it. Another red herring.

I know there'll be less investment and tourism without them. You'd have to be thick not to see that.
Shannon Industrial Zone thrived because of the proximity of an international gateway. Remember all the fuss when EI pulled an aircraft out to put in Belfast? The end of business in the Shannon region was forecast. I think we can find a website or two set up by the Shannon Lobby with loads of 'facts and figures' to prove it. Would you believe them?
You'll believe what you want.


Learn how debating works. You made a claim, I have asked you to back it up with evidence. Again you have shown that you cant.
I expressed an opinion. Take it or leave it. You expressed one too, and you have as little to back up your opinion as you say I have to back up mine. This isn't a kindergarten playground. Grow up.


Do you know anything about PSO's? Seriously? They exist because the airlines who operate them would not make a profit off the route otherwise. And so they would not operate the route.
You ignore the fact that we are talking about a political animal with motivations that see beyond your short termist thinking.


Micko understands the difference between an airline subsidy and PSO. It is you who does not.
It is you who are being determinedly stupid enough to think he cares one way or the other.

Have you not yet caught on? After Buzz, easyjet, Hangar 6, Lisbon, and all his other scams, that O'Leary is motivated to do whatever it takes to get his way, and money is no object if the goal advances the long term plan.
You are myopic.

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]Really? I thought your position was clear - that PSO's are fundamentally wrong in principle.

you thought wrong but that seems to be a habit for you.


And lets face it, thats the standard knee jerk response to them. So in that case - you only picked on Galway because you felt its the sole route undeserving of a PSO? Why bother, when it wasn't under discussion?

Ever heard of using an example? My use of Galway as an example was in response to your claim that PSO's are needed, when you said:


They are there to ENCOURAGE a needed service, and they do not underwrite a route.


I simply demonstrated that they are not all needed. See, that's relevance.


The point was Ryanairs motivation in taking over the PSO in Kerry. So you've been pushing a red-herring argument all along, eh.

No, my argument is that not all PSO's are necessary so I gave an example. Do follow along.


Look, is this more red-herring guff?
Why not address the real nub of the issue? Or do you prefer semantics?

How is it semantics? Do you even understand the word?

The purpose of the PSO's is to connect with Dublin city. That is not the same thing as Europe (as you were rabbiting on about earlier) or Dublin airport. Regional and international commerce are different things.


More about Galway. Blah Blah.
Yes, lets have high speed rail links everywhere. A great idea.
Who'll pay for them?

Who mentioned a high speed rail link? Feel free to quote the reference.

Try reading before responding, it helps.


I think you'll find they are cheaper than building high speed railways and buying rolling stock.
Who mentioned high speed railways? Please quote the reference


Massive? Define Massive in your terms? Its your word, I never used it. Another red herring.

You seem to like the herrings. Massive is in the dictionary if you want to look it up.

You can start by producing the figures for all the jobs that are supported by the PSO's?


I know there'll be less investment and tourism without them. You'd have to be thick not to see that.

If that is the case you should have no problem producing the figures to back this argument up.


Shannon Industrial Zone thrived because of the proximity of an international gateway. Remember all the fuss when EI pulled an aircraft out to put in Belfast? The end of business in the Shannon region was forecast. I think we can find a website or two set up by the Shannon Lobby with loads of 'facts and figures' to prove it. Would you believe them?
You'll believe what you want.

No point telling me about all the websites you could produce and then not producing them. Shannon airport does not rely on PSO's and it has a long enough runway to serve large jets. In fact it has the largest runway in the state. So using that for a comparison is certainly a red herring.


I expressed an opinion. Take it or leave it. You expressed one too, and you have as little to back up your opinion as you say I have to back up mine. This isn't a kindergarten playground. Grow up.

No you didn't express an opinion. You made a statement of fact when you said:



O'Leary loses money on the route but doesn't give a flying f#@k about that.

You did not say that you think he loses money, you said that he loses money i.e. a statement of fact.


You ignore the fact that we are talking about a political animal with motivations that see beyond your short termist thinking.

You have not provided any facts for me to ignore so what are you talking about?


It is you who are being determinedly stupid enough to think he cares one way or the other.

Where did I say that? Quote me?


Have you not yet caught on? After Buzz, easyjet, Hangar 6, Lisbon, and all his other scams, that O'Leary is motivated to do whatever it takes to get his way, and money is no object if the goal advances the long term plan.
You are myopic.

Are you capable of reading? I said in an earlier post:


You seem to think that I disagree with you as to what O'Leary's intentions are. I dont.

What do fail to understand about that statement?

[Starbuck]

you thought wrong but that seems to be a habit for you.
So you have no problem with PSO's? In Principle? Great! Progress!

Do you mind them being used to fund predatory pricing and over capacity, facilitating the destruction of minor competitors by an aggressive monopolist?

THATS the point of the debate. THATS the point I made from the outset.

If you have no problem with that - just say so, then we'll get some clarity on your position, instead of all your 'he said/she said' waffle which bores everone to tears.

So spit it out - Now that we know you don't object to all PSO's.
Do you, or do you not, consider it acceptable to see them used cynically to destroy the competition?

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]So you have no problem with PSO's? In Principle? Great! Progress!
That's what I have been saying all along. Congratulations on reading it.


Do you mind them being used to fund predatory pricing and over capacity, facilitating the destruction of minor competitors by an aggressive monopolist?

Provide the evidence that this is happening and I will give you my opinion.


THATS the point of the debate. THATS the point I made from the outset.

It's just one of the points that you have made without any evidence. In fact you accuse Ryanair of illegal activity in Kerry without any evidence. See the trend?


If you have no problem with that - just say so, then we'll get some clarity on your position, instead of all your 'he said/she said' waffle which bores everone to tears.

My position is clear. Read it.


So spit it out - Now that we know you don't object to all PSO's.
Do you, or do you not, consider it acceptable to see them used cynically to destroy the competition?

Provide the evidence and I will comment on it.

[Starbuck]

Provide the evidence that this is happening and I will give you my opinion.
Another red-herring answer.
You are big on principles, except when cornered to draw conclusions from them.
Forget about specifics here - I ask you again - on Principle - Do you mind PSO's being used to fund predatory pricing and over capacity, facilitating the destruction of minor competitors by an aggressive monopolist?
Just a simple straightforward question. Answer please.


It's just one of the points that you have made without any evidence. In fact you accuse Ryanair of illegal activity in Kerry without any evidence. See the trend?
I see a trend in Ryanairs illegal practices - yes indeedy. The CEO and his Management Team have been branded liars by more than one High Court Judge, and came close to being held in contempt until they purged and apologised.
By the way - what part of Ryanairs 'activity in Kerry' do you say I said is illegal? I think I called it many things - like - aggressive, predatory etc - but in the Capitalist System it's perfectly acceptable to put your competitors out of business, isn't it. What do you think is illegal?


My position is clear. Read it.
No, you're still beating round the bush I'm afraid. I believe you know well whats right and whats wrong with FR's shenanigans, but you just can't bring yourself to say it.

Here's a nice comprehensive article for you. It would clear the matter up for any fair-minded person - but in your case I expect you'll waffle a bit more to explain it away.



War in Irish skies as regional rival claims Ryan Air boss O'Leary told him '****** off'
Belfast Telegraph, Monday, 4 August 2008 (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/war-in-irish-skies-as-regional-rival-claims-ryan-air-boss-oleary-told-him-fk-off-13927366.html)

<Article deleted for copyright reasons Mod CF>

By the way, having at first vehemently denied this meeting took place, O'Leary later produced a 'Memo' of the meeting which 'disproved' he had used the F word to O'Ceidigh. More blatant lies caught out, then denied with another lie (an internal Memo?! Hahahaha). Does O'Leary transcribe every use of the F word in his Memos? They must be running out of blue ink.....

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]Another red-herring answer.
You are big on principles, except when cornered to draw conclusions from them.
Forget about specifics here - I ask you again - on Principle - Do you mind PSO's being used to fund predatory pricing and over capacity, facilitating the destruction of minor competitors by an aggressive monopolist?
Just a simple straightforward question. Answer please.

Again, you provide evidence and I will comment on it. You have failed to provide evidence. Why would I want to comment on the idle wanderings of your mind?


I see a trend in Ryanairs illegal practices - yes indeedy. The CEO and his Management Team have been branded liars by more than one High Court Judge, and came close to being held in contempt until they purged and apologised.

And this has what to do with your allegations re: the Kerry PSO?


By the way - what part of Ryanairs 'activity in Kerry' do you say I said is illegal? I think I called it many things - like - aggressive, predatory etc - but in the Capitalist System it's perfectly acceptable to put your competitors out of business, isn't it. What do you think is illegal?

I dont think there is anything illegal. I explicitly said so when I said:


No doubt he would love to see the back of Aer Arann but, there is nothing illegal about what he is doing. Therefore, regardless of your attempts to call it bollox, there is no legal way that the Government can ban Ryanair from applying for a PSO route and if they are discriminated against the EU can act.

Your response was:


Wrong.
The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples. Don't be so sure Micko isn't whistling in the dark right now.... 'Ryanair Profits boosted by subsidies'

Now the Government can only stop Ryanair applying for the PSO's if they are doing something illegal. You have said that the Government can stop them and linked to some illegal activity they are accused of in France. So the question is, what do you think they are doing that is illegal?



No, you're still beating round the bush I'm afraid. I believe you know well whats right and whats wrong with FR's shenanigans, but you just can't bring yourself to say it.

There is nothing illegal that I am aware of in Ryanairs actions re: Kerry. I have been clear about that. If you believe otherwise then provide the evidence.


Here's a nice comprehensive article for you. It would clear the matter up for any fair-minded person - but in your case I expect you'll waffle a bit more to explain it away.

You really have no idea what evidence is, do you? That article is based solely on the word of Ryanair's competitor. Hardly impartial. It is hearsay and unproven. Try to do better.



By the way, having at first vehemently denied this meeting took place, O'Leary later produced a 'Memo' of the meeting which 'disproved' he had used the F word to O'Ceidigh. More blatant lies caught out, then denied with another lie (an internal Memo?! Hahahaha). Does O'Leary transcribe every use of the F word in his Memos? They must be running out of blue ink.....

So you admit that O'Leary denies the allegation. Can you provide actual evidence to prove him wrong?

[Starbuck]

Again, you provide evidence and I will comment on it.
Again, in spite of your self declared high regard for PRINCIPALS you refuse to even acknowledge that the misuse of taxpayers money BY ANYBODY is wrong - even in PRINCIPAL. Are you Ivor Callely?


And this has what to do with your allegations re: the Kerry PSO?
It means he and his company have a proven track record of lies, deceit, malfeasance and disregard for the law, which strengthens Padraig O'Ceidighs accusation that O'Leary is/was out to destroy his company, by any means possible.


I dont think there is anything illegal.....the Government can only stop Ryanair applying for the PSO's if they are doing something illegal.
I understand there's a nuance here you find difficult to grasp.
Putting your competitor out of business is not illegal. In fact it's the goal of most companies. Their method is what may be illegal. And the use of taxpayers money to do it SHOULD clearly be illegal, and will become so if the EU Court finds against Ryanair, which I sincerely hope they will, because it is plainly immoral for any company to use taxpayer subsidies to bust a competitor. If the system allows it then the system needs changing.


You have said that the Government can stop them and linked to some illegal activity they are accused of in France. So the question is, what do you think they are doing that is illegal?
Using taxpayers money to break a competitor.


That article is based solely on the word of Ryanair's competitor.
Yes, well, you would say that, wouldn't you, because you're a Ryanair shill.
I think most sane people in Ireland would look at those comments and if asked if they believed O'Leary was likely to have spoken them - they'd say yes! Thats because when you've been caught lying in public on so many occasions, and when your foul language and temper are well known - your credibility is shot.

What had O'Ceidigh to gain from making false accusations about O'Leary? It's quite a gamble to go whinging to the public. And why bother? Do you think he imagined a bit of sympathy from the public would change O'Learys behaviour toward him? Explain the motivation for O'Ceidigh lying?
As it turned out of course - it was Ryanair who were caught lying.


So you admit that O'Leary denies the allegation. Can you provide actual evidence to prove him wrong?

In the article O'Leary provides it himself!
He first lied about ever meeting O'Ceidigh. I guess you swallowed that line too....
Then when confronted by the media he produced a "memo" - saying what? That he did meet (sudden recollection?) but he didn't use the F word?
Who cares what particular expletives he used - the point was made - the meeting DID take place in spite of the earlier denials (more lies).

O'Ceidigh says he went to O'Leary to ask him why he was trying to put him out of business.
O'Leary denied (a) Initially, that the meeting took place, then (b) What expletives he used.

Only a shill could quibble over what expletives O'Leary used, hoping to distract from the real point. Just ANOTHER of your (and his) red-herrings.
O'Leary had to spin hard and fast to keep media attention off the real issue.

So it comes down to who you believe - who is more credible. A proven liar (O'Leary) or an individual with a clear record for honesty. I've never heard a High Court Judge threaten to jail O'Ceidigh for lying. Have you?
Its one mans word against the other then.
I know who I believe - but unlike you, I have no sympathy whatever for liars, no matter how succesful they are.

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]Again, in spite of your self declared high regard for PRINCIPALS you refuse to even acknowledge that the misuse of taxpayers money BY ANYBODY is wrong - even in PRINCIPAL. Are you Ivor Callely?

As I said I will comment when you provide evidence. You have still to back any of your claims up with evidence.


It means he and his company have a proven track record of lies, deceit, malfeasance and disregard for the law, which strengthens Padraig O'Ceidighs accusation that O'Leary is/was out to destroy his company, by any means possible.

Bollox. You are making a very specific allegation re: Kerry. Back it up with some evidence.


I understand there's a nuance here you find difficult to grasp.
Putting your competitor out of business is not illegal.

I dont find that difficult to grasp. You clearly do.


In fact it's the goal of most companies. Their method is what may be illegal.

Now it may be illegal? You were more specific earlier when you said:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

Now that is not a maybe. That is a specific alleagtion of illegal activity in Kerry. Unsurprisingly you have failed to back it up.


And the use of taxpayers money to do it SHOULD clearly be illegal, and will become so if the EU Court finds against Ryanair, which I sincerely hope they will, because it is plainly immoral for any company to use taxpayer subsidies to bust a competitor. If the system allows it then the system needs changing.

Is there a court case against Ryanair re: Kerry?


Using taxpayers money to break a competitor.

If there is something illegal about what they are doing in Kerry then prove it.


Yes, well, you would say that, wouldn't you, because you're a Ryanair shill.

I'll ignore the insult, a clear sign that you have no argument. What I said is true, the article is entirely based on the word of Ryanair's competitor. Any court would laugh that out the door because it is hearsay.


I think most sane people in Ireland would look at those comments and if asked if they believed O'Leary was likely to have spoken them - they'd say yes! Thats because when you've been caught lying in public on so many occasions, and when your foul language and temper are well known - your credibility is shot.

It does not matter what people believe. When making an allegation of illegal activity it matters what people can prove. You cant prove anything.


What had O'Ceidigh to gain from making false accusations about O'Leary? It's quite a gamble to go whinging to the public. And why bother? Do you think he imagined a bit of sympathy from the public would change O'Learys behaviour toward him? Explain the motivation for O'Ceidigh lying?
As it turned out of course - it was Ryanair who were caught lying.

Now your talking nonsense. Firstly, I dont know Ó Ceidigh so how do you expect me to read his mind. It was hardly negative publicity for him, was it?

You need to look up the difference between proof and belief.


In the article O'Leary provides it himself!
He first lied about ever meeting O'Ceidigh. I guess you swallowed that line too....
Then when confronted by the media he produced a "memo" - saying what? That he did meet (sudden recollection?) but he didn't use the F word?
Who cares what particular expletives he used - the point was made - the meeting DID take place in spite of the earlier denials (more lies).

And this proves what re: your allegations of illegal activity in Kerry?


O'Ceidigh says he went to O'Leary to ask him why he was trying to put him out of business.
O'Leary denied (a) Initially, that the meeting took place, then (b) What expletives he used.

Note he didn't admit to trying to put anyone out of business. What have expletives got to with your allegation re: Kerry?


Only a shill could quibble over what expletives O'Leary used, hoping to distract from the real point. Just ANOTHER of your (and his) red-herrings.
O'Leary had to spin hard and fast to keep media attention off the real issue.

What are you yapping on about now. I couldn't care less whether he uses expletives. You made allegation re: Kerry and days later you still have not come close to proving them.


So it comes down to who you believe - who is more credible. A proven liar (O'Leary) or an individual with a clear record for honesty. I've never heard a High Court Judge threaten to jail O'Ceidigh for lying. Have you?
Its one mans word against the other then.
I know who I believe - but unlike you, I have no sympathy whatever for liars, no matter how succesful they are.

You have a long winded way of saying that you cannot back up any of the allegations you make. I couldn't care less if O'Leary and Ó Ceidigh get along. You have made an allegation of illegal activity using taxpayers money in Kerry, Days later you have still to provide any evidence. Do hurry along.

[C. Flower]

I'm going to put this thread out of sight until it's been checked.

CF Admin

[Starbuck]

Well I still see it!

[Starbuck]

As I said I will comment when you provide evidence. You have still to back any of your claims up with evidence.
Still avoiding the issue. So much for your Principles.
Evidence of what exactly anyway? That O'Leary took taxpayers money? That's in the public domain.
That he bid against and displaced Aer Arann from the PSO route - in spite of earlier public comments that local airports were not viable because of them - that too is in the public domain.
That Aer Aranns CEO went to O'Leary to ask him to lay off - that is in the public domain.
That Ryanair did not lay off, and Aer Arann is now suffering the consequences of Ryanairs targetting - its in the public domain!
That Ryanair used public money to acheive this goal? What do you think he did with the 5.2M euro subsidy (its in the public domain) - stuck it up his nose maybe?

The Government here (and to be fair, many Government is europe) have been allowing the State handouts to Ryanair to continue for too long, and its time the plug was pulled. I expect it to happen very soon. Watch the Court action in europe.

[C. Flower]

bump

[Starbuck]

I asked C.Flower to re-open this thread because there have been developments in the Aer Arann/Ryanair/PSO routes issue.

Just to re-cap; on August 26th the newspapers reported that Aer Arann had been placed in Administration.

On the 28th I made the following post:


The situation Aer Arann is in now is a DIRECT result of the predatory practices of Ryanair and Michael O'Leary. Aer Arann was a tiny niche competitor who irked him by having the gall to run a service from Dublin to Cork while he was trying to turn the screws on Cork Airport landing charges. His response to this little flea bite was to stomp his great big Mullingar Farmers welly on pipsqueak Aer Arann.

How'd he do that? The 'Great Free-Marketeer' applied for the PSO routes ex Kerry Airport, and got them. Thus depriving Aer Arann of a vital lifeline. He knew it would place huge financial stress on the company right away. He has his cronies in the IAA to thank for that.

Padraig O'Ceide (sp?) went to see O'Leary in the dragons den, to ask why his company was being attacked - and was famously told to 'eff off back to Galway.

Now watch what happens if this leads to Aer Aranns closure - having acheived his aim O'Leary will withdraw from Kerry, leaving the airport with no service. Or at least you can expect him to further turn the screws on the airport to give him even larger subsidies. Remember, when Aer Lingus once operated the PSO routes (they gave that up around 2000) O'Leary was never off the radio lambasting them for 'taking taxpayer subsidies'. Sheer effing hypocrisy. He's been demanding taxpayer subsidies (with threats) from every airport in europe for decades. He has now succesfully used Irish taxpayers money to destroy a small competitor, at the cost of (probably) several hundred more jobs.

If the dimwits who want Ryanair to monopolise Irish Aviation live in Kerry - I hope you get screwed to the wall.
Enjoy the bus ride to Cork when you want to fly anywhere in future.

Two days ago - having seen its aim acheived - Ryanair announced it was cutting the Kerry service by two thirds.
As I predicted.

I also predicted a second option - a turn of the screws on Kerry Airport to give him bigger fee reductions.


“Ryanair will, from 31st October, switch its Kerry based aircraft to another EU base where Govts are reducing airport fees and welcoming tourists instead of taxing them. Ryanair will, from 31st October, continue to operate four routes from Kerry to Dublin, Frankfurt Hahn, London Luton and London Stansted”

The above quote from the Ryanair spokesman is the word made flesh. The remaining service will be cancelled or further downgraded if Kerry Airport doesn't bend the knee and give in to his demands.

So now we see the truth laid bare, in spite of Gruffalos long-winded and hypocritical diatribes of denial.
Like this:


Starbuck: Do you mind them [PSO subsidies] being used to fund predatory pricing and over capacity, facilitating the destruction of minor competitors by an aggressive monopolist?

Gruffalo: Provide the evidence that this is happening and I will give you my opinion.

Well, here's your evidence Guffalo. This is the fate that awaits all Irish airports if Ryanair become the monopoly it so desires to be.
QED.

You'd have to be terminally thick not to 'get it'.

[Starbuck]

Wellll....looky here!! Just in case there was ANY lingering doubt created by Micko's craven lacky Gruffalo, read on:


Ryanair tendering for Kerry 'predatory'

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0925/1224279656526.html?via=rel)
ANNE LUCEY

THE MINISTER for Transport Noel Dempsey yesterday said the subsidised Kerry to Dublin flights being discontinued by Ryanair were available, and the Minister strongly hinted that Aer Arann, should apply to fill “the vacancy”.

Mr Dempsey also made a strong attack on Ryanair’s model Europe-wide in which he said the airline “squeezed” regional airports and squeezed competition out. He speculated that its approach in tendering for the Kerry public service obligation (PSO) had been “predatory” in the first place and they had got their sums wrong.

Aer Arann, which operates a number of other PSO routes between Dublin and other regional airports, had operated the routes from Kerry until undercut by Ryanair when they were last tendered for.

Aer Arann is in examinership having lost about €6 million for each of the last three years. At least 14 groups have expressed interest in investing in the airline which also operates regional routes on behalf of Aer Lingus.

Mr Dempsey said it was Ryanair’s “unilateral decision” to pull out of Kerry. He said the press statement issued by the airline announcing it was pulling out of the PSO scheme was “incorrect, inaccurate and untruthful”. [...and credible only to craven lackies like Gruffalo]

Mr Dempsey was speaking yesterday on Radio Kerry in the aftermath of Ryanair’s announcement on Thursday that it would no longer operate the PSO flights out of Kerry, but would operate one return flight a day, from October 31st, on a commercial basis.

In a statement yesterday Ryanair pointed to the increase in charges imposed on the route including a €4 tax on return tickets, a 40 per cent increase in airport fees and a 25 per cent increase in Irish Aviation Authority charges.

It pointed to a clause in its contract which required the Minister to have due regard when setting compensation to developments impacting the cost of operation which “could not have been anticipated by the company”.

Ryanair took over the PSO Kerry to Dublin route in 2008 with a tender which required a subsidy of €1.75 million. Aer Arann had been operating the route at a subsidy of over €3 million. The contract runs until July 2011.

Mr Dempsey said: “Ryanair contracted for this PSO and from what I can see either they got their bid hopelessly wrong or they made a predatory bid and under the PSO contract now can’t [fulfil] it. They got their sums wrong. It’s either one or the other. But typical Ryanair, they decide they’ll blame everyone else except themselves.”

Suck that up effing liar. Game Set and Match, Slamn Dunk, now pi@@ off and never come back (oh, I notice you haven't anyhow).

[Starbuck]

Oh - one more thing.
I see Micko is mouthing off again, this time threatening another takeover attempt of Aer Lingus.
Well, if he succeeds, given his proven track record (above), Ireland will quickly find its tourism and inward investment prospects falling solely into the hands of a demonstrated nutter and egomaniac.

But hey - he has his 'fans'.
Good luck with that.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I thought the EU Competition Authority said they would block any attempt by Ryan Air to take over Aer Lingus?

[Starbuck]

Nope - not in such explicit terms. How the hell could they, given the natural political necessity to leave a 'get out' in every such pronouncement.

Besides, if FF were to tell the EU (quietly, behind closed doors) that it is now politically expedient to sell - all objections would dissapear overnight.
O'Leary smells it in the air.

[C. Flower]

Discussed on Joe Duffy now - two Chartbusters shops - Blanchardstown and Phibsborough branches - were closed down last night with ten minutes notice to the staff.

Job losses announced yesterday, in Clonmen and Castlebar and also some job announcements.

Worryingly, RTE news also reported lunchtime that a lot of working overdrafts are being converted by banks to term loans. That is effectively the loss of working overdraft to those firms and few SMEs can manage without them.

[Ah Well]

Discussed on Joe Duffy now - two Chartbusters shops - Blanchardstown and Phibsborough branches - were closed down last night with ten minutes notice to the staff.

Job losses announced yesterday, in Clonmen and Castlebar and also some job announcements.

Worryingly, RTE news also reported lunchtime that a lot of working overdrafts are being converted by banks to term loans. That is effectively the loss of working overdraft to those firms and few SMEs can manage without them.

Happily able in very recent times to clear off a Bank O/d myself rather than have to covert to a term loan as suggested by them - were fast enough to ring me after suggesting the o/d facility be reduced down considerably

To which I had no objection as I don't intend to use the o/d facility again if at all possible - good riddance to them :D

But yeah SME's are under horrific pressure

[TotalMayhem]

This is what receivership (http://www.mcnamaraconstruction.com/) looks like on the internet.

But Google's web cache (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xfVav9QTkdUJ:www.mcnamaraconstructi on.com/+http://www.mcnamaraconstruction.com/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk) still allows you to have a look at what once made us the "Envy of Europe"

[Ah Well]

This is what receivership (http://www.mcnamaraconstruction.com/) looks like on the internet.

But Google's web cache (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xfVav9QTkdUJ:www.mcnamaraconstructi on.com/+http://www.mcnamaraconstruction.com/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk) still allows you to have a look at what once made us the "Envy of Europe"

Ah yes the blue screen of death ...

[wickedfairy]

Four Star Pizza in examinership
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1116/1224283412621.html

[jmcc]

What is really scary is seeing the businesses that will be gone by this time next year (based on their web footprint and domain name renewal patterns).

Chartbusters was more a technological casualty. The original video tape business was a tough one and eventhough anti-piracy elements had been added to videos, the system they used was trivial to bypass. The DVDs had their own anti-piracy element but again that was compromised. Now with the rise of the net and the ease of copying and distributing movies, operations like Chartbusters were in effect competing with technological evolution.

Regards...jmcc

[Design for Life]

Piracy, internet and so on has been blamed for the death of the physical product for years. It's the bottomless pit of arguments since it can't be qualified - if you get to a stage where none buys a physical product then yeah maybe I'd believe it.

XtraVision still do business renting out DVDs. The unfortunate fact that doesn't come across well on internet forums is many people that want to see a movie still turn to a video shop rather than dodgy torrents or stream sites on little computer screens. The demographic that use video shops is still the same by my estimation - couples with or without kids.

The DVD did however bring about the end of the small independent video shop but that's a different issue.

About 8 years Chartbusters started turning towards other revenue streams such as internet access and services and they've been running tanning salons in their shops for I don't know how long.

The closing of Chartbusters doesn't signal any end to DVD, physical formats or whatever. It isn't a casualty of technology. More likely a casualty of recession for people are no longer spending money tanning themselves or paying to use their internet services.

The macrovision anti-pirate system used on video tapes wasn't trivial. It still isn't trivial - you'd be looking at spending about 50quid for a device to bypass it still if you wanted to convert VHS- DVD.

[jmcc]

Piracy, internet and so on has been blamed for the death of the physical product for years. It's the bottomless pit of arguments since it can't be qualified - if you get to a stage where none buys a physical product then yeah maybe I'd believe it.Well it can affect the subscriptions of Pay TV services.


The DVD did however bring about the end of the small independent video shop but that's a different issue. The small independent video shops were being priced out by the buying power of the chains.


The closing of Chartbusters doesn't signal any end to DVD, physical formats or whatever.Increasing computer penetration and improving broadband bandwidth contributed. They made it easier to download a movie months or even a year before it appears on Pay TV. Even that 'card sharing' thing might be a problem but then I know it by another name.


The macrovision anti-pirate system used on video tapes wasn't trivial. Actually it was. But then I am speaking as somewhat of an authority on the subject whereas you are not.

Regards...jmcc

[wickedfairy]

Belliner House in Liquidation today...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0426/1224269094021.html

[wickedfairy]

€53m owed by Companies liquidated by the High Court

http://www.vision-net.ie/barometer.jsp
In the last month (18th October 2010 - 18th November 2010) the Irish High Court has ordered the Liquidation of 22 Irish Companies, that's roughly ONE Liquidation every 35 HOURS.

[Gruffalo]

Wellll....looky here!! Just in case there was ANY lingering doubt created by Micko's craven lacky Gruffalo, read on:



Suck that up effing liar. Game Set and Match, Slamn Dunk, now pi@@ off and never come back (oh, I notice you haven't anyhow).

I see you still have not found a cure for your illiteracy. You made a very specific allegation of illegal activity re: Ryanair at Kerry:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

Now despite all the hyperbole and nonsense which you have spouted on here, you still have failed to prove that they have done anything illegal at Kerry airport.

Try again!

[Starbuck]

Hah! Finally dared to return to your poopoo!
What a neck you have, to keep the act up!
Everything I forecast months ago came true.
You've been proved to be a liar and a shill.
Even Dempsey said it. Now back down you nutcase, you are embarrassing yourself.

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]You've been proved to be a liar and a shill.

But you didn't. Can you read at all? Once again - you made a specific allegation regarding illegal behaviour by Ryanair at Kerry Airport. I quote you:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

You still have not provided proof of illegality. Try again.


Even Dempsey said it. Now back down you nutcase, you are embarrassing yourself.

1. Dempsey did not make a charge of illegal conduct by Ryanair with regards to the subsidies at Kerry Airport.
2. Relying on Dempsey as evidence is laughable. His honesty would be as questionable as O'Leary's and that is saying something.

[Starbuck]

I'm guessing you are some kind of amateur lawyer. Maybe a law student.
You have that twisted view of reality that only an academic ignoramus or a shill can rationalise.

Months ago, I forecast that O'Leary would drive Aer Aran out of business by predatory use of taxpayer monies, and as soon as he had succeeded in doing so he would drop the routes. That is EXACTLY what happened.
Now, you can waffle all you like about legal technicalities, but those of us who live in the real world (outside of the hallowed halls of the Law Library and the dusty corridoors of Academe) know that when it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a f@#ckin duck!
Minister Dempsey laterally came to the same realisation.
Get it?
No?
Then you must be on the payroll.

[Gruffalo]

I'm guessing you are some kind of amateur lawyer. Maybe a law student.
You have that twisted view of reality that only an academic ignoramus or a shill can rationalise.

[QUOTE]Months ago, I forecast that O'Leary would drive Aer Aran out of business by predatory use of taxpayer monies, and as soon as he had succeeded in doing so he would drop the routes. That is EXACTLY what happened.
Now, you can waffle all you like about legal technicalities, but those of us who live in the real world (outside of the hallowed halls of the Law Library and the dusty corridoors of Academe) know that when it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a f@#ckin duck!
Minister Dempsey laterally came to the same realisation.
Get it?
No?
Then you must be on the payroll.

I'm afraid you are the one who does not get it. You made a specific allegation that about illegal subsidies:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

But you still have not provided any evidence of illegal behaviour. Can you please do so as I am getting rather fed up reading your manure. You have made the allegation now either prove it or admit your wrong!

[Starbuck]

By the way, you must have noticed (I certainly have) that there's a certain change of public perception about the Arch Cretin O'Leary. People seem to be less inclined to lap up his drivel now that the days of the '**** u very much Celtic Tiger' are over.
Every cloud has a silver lining.
Enough with the legal crapology. Nobody's interested any more in your FF spin doctoring *****. Time for plain ******* facts and honesty.
You need to get with the zeitgeist you dinosaur.

[Gruffalo]

By the way, you must have noticed (I certainly have) that there's a certain change of public perception about the Arch Cretin O'Leary. People seem to be less inclined to lap up his drivel now that the days of the '**** u very much Celtic Tiger' are over.
Every cloud has a silver lining.
Enough with the legal crapology. Nobody's interested any more in your FF spin doctoring *****. Time for plain ******* facts and honesty.
You need to get with the zeitgeist you dinosaur.

But the whole point of this debate is that you have made a specific allegation of illegality:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

Are you going to back it up? You have failed to do so so far.

[Starbuck]

Nope. You still don't get it - even after months of waffle.
I'm NOT interested in your obscure legal debate. Not at all.
I'm talking facts. Real World.
Sorry if that upsets you and you can't deal with it. Your Prob, Not Mine.
You are a throwback. The world has moved on. Reality talks, BS walks these days.

[Gruffalo]

Nope. You still don't get it - even after months of waffle.
I'm NOT interested in your obscure legal debate. Not at all.
I'm talking facts. Real World.
Sorry if that upsets you and you can't deal with it. Your Prob, Not Mine.
You are a throwback. The world has moved on. Reality talks, BS walks these days.

Your even pathetic when you try to back out of an argument. You made a specific allegation about illegal activity by Ryanair re: illegal subsidies:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

I asked you to back it up and you called me every name you could think of. You have told me I was wrong, you have told me to shove it up my arse and you have said Dempsey backed you up. But you were just telling more lies.

You have failed to back up your allegation. You have not provided one shred of evidence to back up your allegation re: illegal activity with subsidies at Kerry Airport. That is because you are a a liar.

You may not like what Ryanair did at Kerry but that is irrelevant, there is no evidence that they did anything illegal there and that makes you a pathetic liar.

[Starbuck]

You like going round in circles, don't you. That's your little game.
You aren't in the forecourts now sonny.

The core facts are as follows.

I said O'Leary was using public funds to bust a competitor. You vehemently denied it. YOU WERE WRONG.
I said O'Leary would dump the routes once he succeeded in busting the competion.You denied it. He did. YOU WERE WRONG.
I said the Government needed to take action and recognise this abuse. Dempsey finally spoke out and condemned O'Leary. You asked for 'proof'. YOU WERE WRONG.

QED. You were WRONG ALL THE WAY.
Legal obfuscation be damned.

This will never be fought out in a court of law because changed economic circumstances have now forced the end of the PSO subsidies. But the facts speak for themselves. You were wrong. You attempted to cover up corrupt behaviour. SHAME ON YOU! You are a waffler, hoist by your own petard. Yours is the kind of BS that brought Ireland down. Be proud.

[Gruffalo]

You like going round in circles - don't you. That's your little game.

The core facts are as follows.

[QUOTE]I said O'Leary was using public funds to bust a competitor. You vehemently denied it.

Aer Arann are still going so he did not bust them.

And to show how you lie, here is what I actually said:


No doubt he would love to see the back of Aer Arann but, there is nothing illegal about what he is doing. Therefore, regardless of your attempts to call it bollox, there is no legal way that the Government can ban Ryanair from applying for a PSO route and if they are discriminated against the EU can act.


I said O'Leary would dump the routes once he succeeded in busting the competion. He did.

But he didn't bust the competition. Aer Arann are still in business.


I said the Government needed to take action and recognise this abuse. Dempsey finally spoke out and condemned O'Leary.

So Dempsey gave out about a company that he was happy to deal with until they pulled out of there. Sour grapes?



Legal obfuscation be damned.

In other words you lied and you cannot back it up. Pathetic.


This will never be fought out in a court of law. The facts speak for themselves.

But its not a fact. You cannot prove anything. You are simply living in your own dream world. You made a specific allegation about Ryanair using illegal subsidies in Kerry Airport:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

The only fact in this whole debate is that you made that allegation and you cannot back it up. As usual you can run your big mouth off but you cant back it up. Pathetic.

Your opinion does not constitute fact. You need to learn.


You are a waffler, hoist by your own petard.

A waffler is someone who talks nonsense, makes allegation and cant back them up. As shown that is you Catalpa.

[C. Flower]

Do you two want this thread locked, to put it out of its misery?

[Gruffalo]

Do you two want this thread locked, to put it out of its misery?

No, You would never know he might pull a rabbit from a hat and back up his lies:D

[Starbuck]

What a prat.
Aer Arann went into examinership in the summer and its attempts to re-structure debt were initially rejected by the High Court. It was on the verge of closing when two investors stepped in to provide over 3M Euro in new capital. It is only now exiting examinership, and it is far from out of the woods. It has debts of over 29M Euro. http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1029/aerarann-business.html

O'Leary's predatory practices put Aer Arann in this situation. He used tax payers money to do it. Then he pulled off the routes when he had succeeded in wrecking a small competitor. Aer Arann will never again be a headache for O'Leary, thanks to the generosity of the taxpayer.

Dempsey copped on to this a bit late in the day - but at least he did. You on the other hand continue to spout bullsh1t. Thats what bullsh1tters do.


Ryanair tendering for Kerry 'predatory'

Irish Times 25-09-10

THE MINISTER for Transport Noel Dempsey yesterday said the subsidised Kerry to Dublin flights being discontinued by Ryanair were available, and the Minister strongly hinted that Aer Arann, should apply to fill “the vacancy”.

Mr Dempsey also made a strong attack on Ryanair’s model Europe-wide in which he said the airline “squeezed” regional airports and squeezed competition out. He speculated that its approach in tendering for the Kerry public service obligation (PSO) had been “predatory” in the first place and they had got their sums wrong.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0925/1224279656526.html


Read it and weep you shill. Now **** off.

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]What a prat.
I see you continue to insult because you have no argument.


Aer Arann went into examinership in the summer and its attempts to re-structure debt were initially rejected by the High Court. It was on the verge of closing when two investors stepped in to provide over 3M Euro in new capital. It is only now exiting examinership, and it is far from out of the woods. It has debts of over 29M Euro. http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1029/aerarann-business.html

1. So you accept that you lied when you said it went bust. It is still operating so it obviously is not bust.
2. Provide specific evidence that Ryanair is solely responsible for Aer Arran's financial difficulties. I bet you cant.


O'Leary's predatory practices put Aer Arann in this situation. He used tax payers money to do it. Then he pulled off the routes when he had succeeded in wrecking a small competitor. Aer Arann will never again be a headache for O'Leary, thanks to the generosity of the taxpayer.

That is all your opinion. You have no evidence that Ryanair are solely responsible for Aer Arann's plight.


Dempsey copped on to this a bit late in the day - but at least he did. You on the other hand continue to spout bullsh1t. Thats what bullsh1tters do.

What did Dempsey cop on to? You made a specific allegation regarding illegal activity by Ryanair at Kerry Airport, with regard to subsidies:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

Despite all your insulting and macho talk you have not yet produced one single shred of evidence to support your allegations.


Read it and weep you shill. Now **** off.

Why would I weep? It doesn't upset me one little bit to point out that you are repeatedly wrong. It does not upset me one little bit to point out that you cannot back up any of the allegations you make.

[Starbuck]

You should weep because you are a loser of course!
You are a loser because you are spouting BS in a vain attempt to focus on a straw man argument, attempting to distract from the real issue of Ryanair and O'Learys role in destroying a small niche competitor through abuse of taxpayers money.

Ryanairs role is clearly stated by the minister, openly stated by Aer Aranns owner, and clearly proven by Ryanairs actions after the success of their predatory action - i.e. the immediate withdrawal of their competing service.

You should also weep from shame at your own rotten hypocrisy. You clearly would rather see the several hundred IRISH employees of Aer Arann out on the street, rather than accept the plain truth - that your hero is a pirate, and that he has tried to destroy Irish jobs for no reason other than a vindictive whim. You are evidently more interested in winning your argument through bullshittery and spin than you are bothered by the loss of livliehoods. You are the worst type of Paddy Irish. Where did you move to by the way? Stansted? O'Learys real HQ.

[Gruffalo]

[QUOTE]You should weep because you are a loser of course!

More insults instead of rational argument.


You are a loser because you are spouting BS in a vain attempt to focus on a straw man argument distracting from the central issue of Ryanair and O'Learys role in destroying a small niche competitor.

What straw man argument? You made a very specific allegation of illegal activity regarding subsidies at Kerry Airport:


The French and Germans are already pursuing actions against him in the european courts showing that he is receiving illegal airport subsidies to the tune of 600M euro p.a. (do you get it?). Add Kerry to the list - it's one of the more blatant examples.

You made the allegation, that is a fact!
You have failed to back up that allegation. That is a fact!
I dont do strawman arguments, I leave that to you.


That role is mooted by the minister,

Apart from the fact that he has a vested interest, he does not make any allegation of illegal activity. You did make such an allegation and you have failed to back it up.


stated openly by Aer Aranns owner,

Ha, ha, that is vested interest of the highest order. You are really having an laugh now.


and clearly proven by Ryanairs actions after the success of their predatory action - i.e. the withdrawal of the service.

But nothings been proven. Ryanair were not making enough money so moved out. Aer Arann are still going so Ryanair have not made them go bust.


You should also weep from shame at your own rotten hypocrisy.

What hypocrisy?


You clearly would rather see the several hundred IRISH employees of Aer Arann out on the street, rather than accept the plain truth

More lies, where have I said that I would like to see them unemployed.


- that your hero is a pirate,
I dont have heros and I have never like Pirate stories!


and that he has tried to destroy Irish jobs for no reason other than a vindictive whim.

I have never defended his whims at all. In fact, I said:


No doubt he would love to see the back of Aer Arann but, there is nothing illegal about what he is doing.

And I am right, there is nothing illegal about what he did at Kerry Airport.


You are evidently more interested in winning your argument through bullshittery and spin than you are bothered by the loss of livliehoods.

And amongst this load of gibberish from you we finally get to the point. I have won the only argument that I made i.e. there is nothing illegal about what Ryanair did re:subsidies at Kerry Airport.


You are the worst type of Paddy Irish. Where did you move to by the way? Stansted? O'Learys real HQ.

More inane nonsense. Oh btw, Edinburgh!

[C. Flower]

Time, gentlemen, please. :)

Thread locked.