School Books - Isn't It Time Standard Text Books Were Introduced ?

[C. Flower]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tui-calls-on-schoolbook-publishers-to-review-sales-strategies-470810.html

The TUI has "called on publishers of schoolbooks to review sales strategies" and to stop the production of phoney, tweaked, "new editions".

Why would they review a sales strategy that is clearly successful in milking parents and (indirectly) the State dry when it has worked so well for years?

Isn't it time that text books for each part of the curriculum were produced by the State and provided a consistent teaching base for all schools - and were issued on-line as well as in hard copies ?

[Tony1975]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tui-calls-on-schoolbook-publishers-to-review-sales-strategies-470810.html

The TUI has "called on publishers of schoolbooks to review sales strategies" and to stop the production of phoney, tweaked, "new editions".

Why would they review a sales strategy that is clearly successful in milking parents and (indirectly) the State dry when it has worked so well for years?

Isn't it time that text books for each part of the curriculum were produced by the State and provided a consistent teaching base for all schools - and were issued on-line as well as in hard copies ?

Couldn't agree more.

Text books should be

1) Commissioned by the state, with copyright remaining with the state.
2) Printed and bound by companies contracted by the state. No need for a publisher.
3) Distributed through the schools at an average of cost price. Eventually these books should be available on e-readers or laptops for next to nothing (if not entirely free).
4) No need for new additions every two years.

[Garland Names the Planets]

What is the total annual cost of textbooks compared to an entry level e-reader?

[Jolly Red Giant]

The operation of schoolbooks in this country is nothing short of a scandal - a scandal not only facilitated by the Dept of Education, but the Dept actively participate in it.

There are currently six publishing houses (that I am aware of). All of these publishers publish copies of textbooks for most subjects. They regularly bring out new editions of the textbooks (in some cases every two years) resulting in preventing schoolbooks being passed on to younger students. The Dept contributes by regularly making small changes to the syllabus of different subjects.

A student changing schools for whatever reason could end up having to purchase a completely new set of schoolbooks (costing say €300) because of the different texts available.

What's more - eaching publisher provides free samples to teachers. In some cases a teacher will get 4 or 5 different textbooks from different publishers, plus workbooks, plus exam papers, plus revision books. You could have up to 20% of the teaching staff teaching one particular subject in a school resulting in the situation that the free sample books account for more than 10% of the books required by the students.

On top of this the quality of the textbooks has worsened over the past 10 years ensuring that books cannot be passed on to siblings and new books have to be purchased.

Publishers have to cover the cost of the free samples and you can be damned sure that they make a healthy profit on top of that.

A single state owned publishing house producing a sinlge good quality (material wise) textbook for each subject and selling the book for production cost could see the price of school textbooks drop by anything from 33%-50%.


Eventually these books should be available on e-readers or laptops for next to nothing (if not entirely free).


Absolutely - there is no reason why, with the use of technology, school texts should cost anything. In reality the only cost is payment for the author and the cost of design layout.

Will it happen? - like hell it will!!! - way too much money to be made out of it - and even more profit will be made when e-readers are eventually introduced (the publishers are already licking their chops on this one).

[TotalMayhem]

Dunno about text books, but you get cheap eReaders for around $100. even Amazon is selling the Kindle from $139.

That's normal retail prices, would be much cheaper in bulk purchases by the Department of Education.

Of course, that would cause an outcry at Eason's et al who heavily depend on schoolbook sales.

[Cato]

A single state owned publishing house producing a sinlge good quality (material wise) textbook for each subject and selling the book for production cost could see the price of school textbooks drop by anything from 33%-50%.

Sounds like a good idea. Before we go for it could you point out an example of where the Irish state has shown the competence to do something like this and not charge through the roof for it?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Of course, that would cause an outcry at Eason's et al who heavily depend on schoolbook sales.
To be honest - *****'em - they have been ******** parents for years.

[Christy Walsh]

Couldn't agree more.

Text books should be

1) Commissioned by the state, with copyright remaining with the state.
2) Printed and bound by companies contracted by the state. No need for a publisher.
3) Distributed through the schools at an average of cost price. Eventually these books should be available on e-readers or laptops for next to nothing (if not entirely free).
4) No need for new additions every two years.

There would still be some way to rip parents off. My son and daughter attend the same school --though it is split into two buildings -boys/girls. Each year we have to pay 25e to the boys side for photo copying and such --but on girls side the same is 128e. The difference is in the blackhole that divides both buildings.

[C. Flower]

If the State won't do it, how about a teachers and parents Co-op/Wiki - get volunteers to write them and publish them in e-form only ?

:)

[Tony1975]

Dunno about text books, but you get cheap eReaders for around $100. even Amazon is selling the Kindle from $139.

That's normal retail prices, would be much cheaper in bulk purchases by the Department of Education.

Of course, that would cause an outcry at Eason's et al who heavily depend on schoolbook sales.

In fairness, I don't think e-readers are up to the job just yet. A 6 inch b/w screen isn't good enough.

[Tony1975]

Sounds like a good idea. Before we go for it could you point out an example of where the Irish state has shown the competence to do something like this and not charge through the roof for it?

A fair point. But it's the right ting to do to aspire to good ideas implemented by a competent government, and then ....... elect a competent government.

[Tony1975]

There would still be some way to rip parents off. My son and daughter attend the same school --though it is split into two buildings -boys/girls. Each year we have to pay 25e to the boys side for photo copying and such --but on girls side the same is 128e. The difference is in the blackhole that divides both buildings.

Firstly, you don't have to pay that money. They can't demand it from you.

Secondly, I was thinking along the lines of using school buildings as distribution points (the way we use them as polling stations). The prices of books would be fixed by the state and the schools would have no leeway to profiteer.

[Controller]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tui-calls-on-schoolbook-publishers-to-review-sales-strategies-470810.html

Isn't it time that text books for each part of the curriculum were produced by the State and provided a consistent teaching base for all schools - and were issued on-line as well as in hard copies ?

Cynically or seriously, I don’t know which. It won’t happen until FF work out just how their party members will make money out of it

[Sidewinder]

Cynically or seriously, I don’t know which. It won’t happen until FF work out just how their party members will make money out of it

Has anyone looked into the ownership of these six publishing houses yet? Doubtless it'll reveal the same depressingly familiar list of ffriendly ffaces.

I came to the conclusion years ago that there is nothing in the Republic with even the faintest whiff of State involvement that is not a fecking scam where the maffia wet their beaks on the blood of the people.

[C. Flower]

Does anyone know if these text books have to be approved by the Department of Education, or can anyone produce them ?

[Garland Names the Planets]

In fairness, I don't think e-readers are up to the job just yet. A 6 inch b/w screen isn't good enough.

The Kindle DX is up to about 10" now and with the launch of tablets like the iPad on the market it can't be very long before they are up to the job at a reasonable price. Colour displays are only really important for a small part of the function that a textbook should provide and insofar as colour illustrations are required they could easily be provided by means of handouts etc by teachers in the school.

[Garland Names the Planets]

Does anyone know if these text books have to be approved by the Department of Education, or can anyone produce them ?

Can't find anything on an approval process from the DoE so I presume anyone can produce them and it's up to the schools then

[C. Flower]

It would be a lovely project to take on, if you had enough people doing a chapter each....

[Christy Walsh]

Firstly, you don't have to pay that money. They can't demand it from you.

Secondly, I was thinking along the lines of using school buildings as distribution points (the way we use them as polling stations). The prices of books would be fixed by the state and the schools would have no leeway to profiteer.

I agree but they have pressed my kids in class for it. They do other humilation tactics with other parents --my wife forbids me to deal with them --so the money is paid. --The Principles generally contact my wife when problems arise -when I'm nice I'm nice... but they seldom see that side of me.

[DCon]

Doesn't some FFer run a book printing company?

[Xray]

If minister for education I would ban school bags. They are a nonsense. One folder should contain everything. One chapter from each book is all that should be required by any child per day. Peoples back are ruined carrying all these books. Homework should never go beyond 7 pm unless in the LC year.

Small uniform books with removable chapters that fit in a folder and use of the internet should be possible. I never required more that a note pad and one or two books a day in college, school should be the same.

Like everything else in this country the focus is wrong, school books should serve kids and teachers not publishers and book stores.
It like we thought housing was to employ builders or cars are to make money for salesmen.

[C. Flower]

If minister for education I would ban school bags. They are a nonsense. One folder should contain everything. One chapter from each book is all that should be required by any child per day. Peoples back are ruined carrying all these books. Homework should never go beyond 7 pm unless in the LC year.

Small uniform books with removable chapters that fit in a folder and use of the internet should be possible. I never required more that a note pad and one or two books a day in college, school should be the same.

Like everything else in this country the focus is wrong, school books should serve kids and teachers not publishers and book stores.
It like we thought housing was to employ builders or cars are to make money for salesmen.

But isn't that what it is for :confused:

[TotalMayhem]

In fairness, I don't think e-readers are up to the job just yet. A 6 inch b/w screen isn't good enough.

The Kindle DX comes with a 10" screen, although not for $139. :)

[Garland Names the Planets]

But isn't that what it is for :confused:


No. Houses were there for the builders. Cars were made so they would have somewhere to live after the crash.

[C. Flower]

Surely, one year's books could cost that much ?

[Garland Names the Planets]

The Kindle DX comes with a 10" screen, although not for $139. :)

It would be about that by the time a program got developed. It would take at least a year I reckon to do that much

[TotalMayhem]

I am pretty sure, an acceptable eReader with a price tag of €50 could be developed, manufactured in Ireland and sold even with a profit if the Department of Education would order them in bulk. You wouldn't need touch screens or 3G and the likes, just the basics.

[C. Flower]

I am pretty sure, an acceptable eReader with a price tag of €50 could be developed, manufactured in Ireland and sold even with a profit if the Department of Education would order them in bulk. You wouldn't need touch screens or 3G and the likes, just the basics.

Now we're talking. One for every member of the audience.

I also think that the texts could be written very well, for little or nothing. We would need qualified people to take on a chapter each, and a good editorial group for each subject, to review and edit. Or it could be done as a wiki, and then finalised by an editorial team.

[ang]

Doesn't some FFer run a book printing company?

Could you possibly be thinking of Barry O'Callaghan of EMPG and he also owns a couple of hotels Enterprise Ireland love him:-


GOVERNMENT body Enterprise Ireland last night defended its decision to pump €30m of taxpayers' money into Barry O'Callaghan's debt-laden education media company back in 2008.


Enterprise Ireland broke it's own investment limit of 650.000 euros with government approval to give this money to EMPG.

A list of some other shareholders in the group:-


Other shareholders in the firm, formerly known as Riverdeep, are private clients of Davy Stockbrokers including former Anglo Irish Bank chairman Sean FitzPatrick and financier Domhnall Slattery who built up a stake of 15pc in the firm.


http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/enterprise-ireland-defends-its-836430m-ocallaghan-investment-2014980.html

Wiki Page Here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_O'Callaghan

[Tony1975]

I am pretty sure, an acceptable eReader with a price tag of €50 could be developed, manufactured in Ireland and sold even with a profit if the Department of Education would order them in bulk. You wouldn't need touch screens or 3G and the likes, just the basics.

Large e-ink screens are technically difficult and expensive to mass produce. Realistically, They will also need to be colour. We're a few years away yet.

But there is no reason why we can't have standard, affordable, reusable textbooks. There is a growing trend (certainly in primary school) of disposable textbooks. Answers are often filled directly into the books, and they cannot be reused by younger siblings. This must also have educational consequences. Questions cannot be redone for practise, as the answer is already in front of the students eyes. (And don't get me started on calculators for primary school kids - that's a different thread)

[Garland Names the Planets]

I am pretty sure, an acceptable eReader with a price tag of €50 could be developed, manufactured in Ireland and sold even with a profit if the Department of Education would order them in bulk. You wouldn't need touch screens or 3G and the likes, just the basics.

Right. USB connection and a legible display would be enough at entry level

[Tony1975]

I also think that the texts could be written very well, for little or nothing. We would need qualified people to take on a chapter each, and a good editorial group for each subject, to review and edit. Or it could be done as a wiki, and then finalised by an editorial team.

Teachers have pretty decent holidays. It shouldn't be too difficult to find qualified people with the time to do it.

[TotalMayhem]

what about the OLPC? $100, 8" colour display, wifi and all ... where there is a will.

ah yes, and you'll have the calculator problem solved as well ;)

[Garland Names the Planets]

Reading heavy text off computer screens is not good and wouldn't go down. It would have to be an e-reader of some sort with E-ink

[Tony1975]

what about the OLPC? $100, 8" colour display, wifi and all ... where there is a will.

ah yes, and you'll have the calculator problem solved as well ;)

Eh! I don't want kids to have calculators. Not 'til LC cycle. I'm very old fashioned:o

[Gruffalo]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tui-calls-on-schoolbook-publishers-to-review-sales-strategies-470810.html

The TUI has "called on publishers of schoolbooks to review sales strategies" and to stop the production of phoney, tweaked, "new editions".

Why would they review a sales strategy that is clearly successful in milking parents and (indirectly) the State dry when it has worked so well for years?

Isn't it time that text books for each part of the curriculum were produced by the State and provided a consistent teaching base for all schools - and were issued on-line as well as in hard copies ?

I would add one thing to your list of requests. Every school should be required to run a bike rental scheme. When I went to secondary we paid £20 to hire the books for the year. At the end of the year you gave them back and someone else hired them the following year. If you lost one you paid for it. A simple system that should be applied throughout the school system.

[jinnyjoe]

I have two children, one starting junior infants and one going into first class the breakdown of their book fees is as follows:

School books bought : 140 euro
Visual arts/photocopy for 1st class: 50 euro
Visual arts/photcopy and readers for jnr infants: 92 euro

Total 282 euro

They are only juniors now what on earth is it going to cost in Secondary, I dread to think. Totally agree with your comments above. Obviously this does not include stationery, pritt sticks, pencil cases, school bags, lunch boxes etc. Do you get my drift.............

[Garland Names the Planets]

Eh! I don't want kids to have calculators. Not 'til LC cycle. I'm very old fashioned:o

Very old fashioned. Calculator been on my mobile since I got my first Nokia 3210 10 year ago

[PaddyJoe]

Update:

TEACHERS' UNION OF IRELAND: MINISTER FOR Education Ruairí Quinn has promised to examine the practice by publishing companies of frequently issuing new editions of schoolbooks amid concerns that parents are finding themselves under pressure financially to ensure their children have the latest version of texts.
Mr Quinn said the issue had been raised with him by teachers at both the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland annual conference in Cork and the Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) annual congress in Tralee. He recognised there was genuine concern that it was causing hardship for families already struggling with the impact of the recession.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0429/1224295674668.html

[Andrew_t]

Are you the last country in Europe where parents have to pay for school textbooks in the State system?

Reading this forum I find myself wondering why you have not long since found a use for lamp-posts which does not involve casting light in the street.

Of course, every racket has its winners. I suppose if my job at Eason's depended on the status quo I would not want any change . . .

[antiestablishmentarian]

This is Ireland, Andrew. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is run competently by the authorities. They can't find funds to repair the pipe network but they can find it to install water meters, which costs 50% more than a simple upgrade. Council workers are ordered to tarmac a road, and then ordered to cease and move on elsewhere when it's half done. This country is upside down and back to front, and the incompetence, ineptitude and corruption of the Irish ruling class is unparalleled anywhere in the world.

[Fraxinus]

Another sordid chapter (pardon pun) in the southern states history. This is one of the cosy cartel of publishers that was given the rights to condition, I mean educate, Irish children.


THE widow of the founder of schoolbook publishers, Folens, will find out tomorrow whether her High Court action can prevent an RTE documentary screening an interview with her ex-husband, as part of a programme on 'Ireland's Nazis'.

Juliette Folens's husband Albert founded the firm, which is familiar to generations of Irish schoolchildren. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/court-fight-over-nazi-folens-claim-120872.html


The family, who have denied Mr Folens was a war criminal or a Nazi, but admit he was sentenced to 10 years in jail for being a Nazi collaborator, claim that a representative of the newspaper involved, the journalist and Mr Folens signed an agreement that allowed Mr Folens to see any article before it was published, and gave him the right of reply.

A spokesman for the family said yesterday that it would be unfair to lump Mr Folens in with some of the worst mass murderers in history.

Mr Folens was a member of the Flemish Legion, which many Belgian fascists joined, and which, under Waffen SS control, was sent to theEastern Front to fight the Red Army.

[C. Flower]

Easons are looking for redundancies anyway, Andrew-t.

Quinn has met with publishers and parents and now is asking for the books to be sold more cheaply.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/publishers-urged-to-cut-book-prices-518310.html

Is he waving some kind of stick at the publishers and booksellers ? If so, I can't work out what it is.

It is an utter absurdity that school costs for one second level student are over 800 euro.


A recent Barnardo’s study found that back to school costs range from €350 for junior infants to €805 for second level students.

Around 514,600 primary school pupils and 322,500 secondary school students return to school this week after the summer break

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/publishers-urged-to-cut-book-prices-518310.html#ixzz1WOpPwpi8

Some families have people going to college, now with a €2,000 charge per person, as well as children at school, and the Credit Unions, who used to help out with loans are much tighter with the cash these days.

[Spectabilis]

St Kevin's College, Crumlin is issuing an iPad to each first year pupil loaded with all required textbooks. The cost to parents is €150 ( I think he said). A great improvement for parents, and the pupils won't be like pack mules carrying the books in paper form.

The school spent two years of its IT budget preparing for this step by installling WiFi and a new server.

[Baron von Biffo]

There was a report on News at One just now about a Dublin school that is beginning a scheme to have iPads for all students from this year's first intake onwards. If I heard correctly the cost is to be €150 a year for the device and licences for the texts.