Cardinal Sean Brady and Brendan Smyth - An Oath of Secrecy

[moss]

Cardinal Sean Brady has admitted to being present when two teenagers who made allegations of sexual abuse at the hands of Fr Brendan Smyth were asked to sign an oath of secrecy not to reveal the church was investigating the claims.
This occured in 1975.
Fr Brendan Smyth was charged and convicted in the 90's for serial sexual abuse.


Dr Brady has indicated he will not be resigning after his admission he was present at meetings where victims swore not to reveal the Church was investigating Fr Smyth.

The cop out..


When asked why he had not contacted the relevent statutory authorities, Cardinal Brady said that he was not the designated person to do so

The lies..


He said there was no effort on the Cardinal's part to cover-up for the late Fr Smyth.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0314/abuse.html

But Smyth was suspended from practicing as a priest 3 weeks after a church report was presented to the church and 'wasn't allowed to hear confessions', according to Brady.



"But I insist again I did act, and act effectively, in that inquiry to produce the grounds for removing Fr Smyth from ministry and specifically it was underlined that he was not to hear confessions and that was very important.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8567144.stm

[Tony1975]

RTE are sticking the boot in to Sean Brady. They have replayed an interview with him where he stated that he would resign if it was found that action or inactions on his part contributed to further abuse of children by known paedophiles.

This statement has can also be found in The Irish Times from Dec 5th
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1205/breaking21.html?via=rel

Asked what he would do if it were found that children had been abused as a result of any failing on his part, Dr Brady said he would stand down. “I would remember that the abuse of children is a very serious crime in civil and canon law. It’s also a very grave sin,” he said. "If I found myself in a situation where I was aware that my failure to act had allowed or meant other children were abused, well then I think I would resign."
He really has nowhere left to run.

But this sentence from you OP is the one that shows that the catholic church has learn nothing:-

When asked why he had not contacted the relevent statutory authorities, Cardinal Brady said that he was not the designated person to do so
Not designated by who, Brady? I'm guessing you meant your boss. But this is what you fail to understand - You are a citizen of a state first and a member of a church second. You didn't need to be designated to do anything. You should have just done it.

[Digout]

Not only should Cardinal Brady, he must be charged with obstructing justice.

[Xray]

Its just boring at this stage, i am beginning to realise why they did not get in front of this problem years ago. If they ever actually came out and told the whole truth people would not be able to take it all in. They really need to face the extent of the problem and start again. If they don't, they have no long term future.

[C. Flower]

What will it change if he resigns from the Church ? Would it not just give the illusion that the Church was not responsible ?

After all, what he did was in line with Church rules.

[johnfás]

First, they should all be resiging. Any bishop who was incumbent beyond about 10 years ago should be resigning - and obviously any bishop incumbent more recently who had any role in any of it.

Secondly, you're right - little will likely change. The problem is the institutional structure of the Catholic Church and little can change in that respect in Ireland, even if many good Catholic clergy want it to, without schism.

[Xray]

That is why the vatican has never played hard ball with these guys, I am sure they could all turn around and point the finger at someone in Rome or produce an embarrassing letter.

Until this generation is gone they are in real bother, and they might not be much of a one following them. Dare I say if women were involved they would have stopped this nonsense. Even if women cannot be priests, surely senior nuns should be involved at a high level?

[Andrew49]

What will it change if he resigns from the Church ? Would it not just give the illusion that the Church was not responsible ?

After all, what he did was in line with Church rules.

Powerful point.

Here's the actual oath forced on the children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v_DI8_yPQM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWNUkpyRTew

[Digout]

The first move I would make is to shut down diplomatic relations with the Vatican. Secondly, time for a new "church tax", if these evil men in dresses wont make amends for their evil deeds, I'll break them.

[Andrew49]

Not mentioned in the news reports is that the Dominican Friary is only yards from Dundalk Garda Station.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/howfarwouldyouwalk.jpg

[Tony1975]

What will it change if he resigns from the Church ? Would it not just give the illusion that the Church was not responsible ?

After all, what he did was in line with Church rules.

Exactly.
To be honest, I couldn't care less how the catholic church deal with these things internally. What interests me is how the wider world will deal with the catholic church and the Vatican State.
I am interested to see how the authorities in individual countries deal with the cover ups through their legal systems.
I am interested to see how long more the Irish Republic allow this vile organisation to have even the smallest involvement with our schools.
And I am interested to see how long more the general public continue to support them. I suspect that the older generations will continue on as normal.

[Andrew49]

Future events in Germany will be interesting .... the RCC do not have hegemony there.

[electionlit]

Well we see now whuy Bishop Brennan and others haven't resigned. I was sick listening to that victim of Brendan Smith this morning on newstalk.
The chursh still dont get the hurt they have caused.
Brendan Smith was one of the vilest creatures to ever set foot on this Earth and how many children were abused by him after Cardinal Brady knew of the abuse.
Whats shocking too is that he was a teacher at the time.
He can resign but in all likelyhood the next lad will have covered up at some stage too.

[Iarmhi Gael]

Any Idea what age these teenagers were....

I would have thought any teenager under 18 would have need parental supervision

[moss]

Well we see now whuy Bishop Brennan and others haven't resigned. I was sick listening to that victim of Brendan Smith this morning on newstalk.
The chursh still dont get the hurt they have caused.
Brendan Smith was one of the vilest creatures to ever set foot on this Earth and how many children were abused by him after Cardinal Brady knew of the abuse.
Whats shocking too is that he was a teacher at the time.
He can resign but in all likelyhood the next lad will have covered up at some stage too.

20 years elapsed between Cardinal Brady getting victims to sign an oath of secrecy and Smyth being convicted of 90 cases of sexual abuse against children.
Too many children suffered because of Brady and his devotion to his sect.

[moss]

Any Idea what age these tenneages were....

I would have thought any teenager under 18 would have need parental supervision


I think their age is totally irrelevant to the story of cover up and a further 20 years of abuse.

[Andrew49]

Cardinal Sean Brady did not tell Pope Benedict he is facing imminent legal proceedings over his role in covering up the biggest clerical sex abuse scandal in Ireland!

Despite two days of intense talks between the pontiff and the Irish Catholic hierarchy in Rome last month, Vatican officials were not told about the pending Irish High Court proceedings. Cardinal Brady is being sued in his personal capacity -- as well as in his role as Catholic Primate of All Ireland -- by a woman who was raped by notorious paedophile priest Brendan Smyth over five years. She was forced to swear an oath that she would not discuss meetings she had with clergy, including the then Fr Sean Brady, about her allegations that she was brutally assaulted by Smyth.

[edit]
Asked if cardinal Brady had spoken with the Pope about the impending proceedings, his spokesman said


"That there were no specifics discussed. The discussions with Pope Benedict and nine curial cardinals were of a general nature."

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Whatever about Brady's responsibility in reporting crimes to the civil authorities surely he should have intimated to Ratzinger the fact of IMMINENT legal proceedings about covering up CLERGY SEXUAL TERRORISM?

[Digout]

Some paedophile sympathiser on Pat Kenny reckons there is no law that states that the church have to report such crimes to the police.

**** these abusers now, confiscate all their assets. Cut off diplomatic relations with the Vatican.

[johnfás]

Whilst not wishing to defend Brady against any allegations made against him, I would point out that the idea of "imminent proceedings" is something so vague that it is easily spun in the media. Either an originating summons has been issued by the courts or it has not. Beyond that, one person's concept of imminent proceedings and another are so vastly open for debate that in reality it is virtually impossible to have an opinion on the circumstances regarding the issue if one is not a party to the action.

It is possible that Brady and this lady have been in contact for several years, that an ultimatum has been issued and that it was stated to Brady that a case will be initiated in the High Court within weeks. It is perfectly plausible that Brady knew all this when he was at the Vatican and that he should have said so. However, it is equally plausible that there was a low level of contact between the proposed plaintiff and Brady, that this was not at an advanced stage and that he did not have knowledge of the likelihood of proceedings being brought against him in the near future.

That is the nature of the law, one tends to try to spring proceedings upon someone. Simply because a paper says that proceedings are imminent does not necessarily mean that this was the understanding between the parties. In most cases it is not.

That is not an attempt to absolve anyone from anything. However, getting a greater grip on the system and how these things actually work is the more likely method of studying these situations properly.

[C. Flower]

The Sunday Times provided some information yesterday. The boy was 10 and the girl was 14 at the time.

She has taken a legal case against Cardinal Brady for assault, battery and "bodily trespass".

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7061133.ece


Cardinal Seán Brady, the head of the Catholic church in Ireland, was involved in an alleged cover-up of child sexual abuse complaints against Brendan Smyth, Ireland’s most notorious paedophile priest.
Brady, the archbishop of Armagh and primate of AllIreland, has confirmed to The Sunday Times that he attended a secret canonical tribunal, or internal church hearing, in 1975 at which two of Smyth’s young victims were required to sign an undertaking on oath that they would not discuss what happened with anybody other than an approved priest.
Details about what transpired in the proceedings are likely to be disclosed in a High Court case initiated in 1997 by a woman who says that Smyth abused her. The case was last mentioned in December when Judge Eamon de Valera let the plaintiff amend her statement of claim. The woman claims she suffered assault, battery and bodily trespass by Smyth, and she names Brady as one of three defendants.
The cardinal is being sued both in his personal capacity, as a priest who took part in the canonical tribunal, and as the primate. The other two defendants are Gerard Cusack, prior of the Norbertines, Smyth’s order, and Leo O’Reilly, bishop of Kilmore, the diocese where Smyth was based.I hadn't heard that there was a legal case taken. Discussion will need to be kept in the parameters of what has been published. It seems odd that RTE is not mentioning this:


Brady, who led 24 Irish bishops to a meeting with the Pope in Rome last month in response to the Murphy report into sexual abuse by Dublin clerics, was a 36-year-old qualified canon lawyer and a teacher at St Patrick’s College in Cavan when the alleged Smyth cover-up took place.
As secretary to the diocese of Kilmore, he acted as the recorder of the evidence on behalf of Francis McKiernan, then the bishop, at one tribunal session on March 29, 1975. At a second meeting on April 4 the same year, he questioned witnesses and recorded their answers.
The hearings were held behind closed doors at the Dominican friary in Dundalk, Co Louth, and at Smyth’s Norbertine order’s Holy Trinity Abbey in Kilnacrott near Ballyjamesduff, Co Cavan.
They were presided over by three canon lawyers and examined formal complaints that Smyth had sexually abused a teenage girl and, separately, an altar boy during church-related activities. Smyth was accused of sexually assaulting the boy, then aged 10, while on holiday in west Cork. The girl said the priest first abused her around Easter 1970, when she was 14.
Both the boy and the girl were required to sign affidavits swearing that they would not talk to anybody except priests given special permission by the tribunal hearings, known in church parlance as “ecclesiastical proceedings”.
Church authorities did not inform gardai about the allegations. It was not until 1997 that Smyth was jailed in the republic for molesting 20 children.

[Tony1975]

Some paedophile sympathiser on Pat Kenny reckons there is no law that states that the church have to report such crimes to the police.

**** these abusers now, confiscate all their assets. Cut off diplomatic relations with the Vatican.

Agree.

There has to be some legal loopholes we can catch these guys on.

My one dream would be to see them stripped of every school building they own. After that it would be easy to legislate for their complete removal from our education system.

[johnfás]

You can ignore my post above, Cactus has clarified that the proceedings have in fact been commenced.

However, it is incredibly important that one approaches these matters with clarity. The word imminent, is meaningless, except in media speak.

[Digout]

Agree.

If these lads want to live in the dark ages, lets treat them like that.

[johnfás]

Agree...

There has to be some legal loopholes we can catch these guys on.

My one dream would be to see them stripped of every school building they own. After that it would be easy to legislate for their complete removal from our education system.

The offence of misconduct in public office. This has been generally used in respect of the police and their failure to act when their attention is drawn to a particular matter. For example, their failure to respond to a 999 call. However, with a bit of ingenuity, it could be possible to ground a case for misconduct in public office on the basis of the patronage of bishops in respect of schools where abuse took place within schools - which would be an interesting case and holds the possibility of success - but it would require a determination of the courts, so it cannot be said with any authority.

[moss]

Agree (except for the burning bit - that's going a bit far)

There has to be some legal loopholes we can catch these guys on.

My one dream would be to see them stripped of every school building they own. After that it would be easy to legislate for their complete removal from our education system.

Forget about loopholes. Clergy covering up child abuse should face the courts like any other citizen.
If you facilitate child abuse there are laws to prosecute.

[ZANU-FF]

Cardinal Brady must go.

I will today cancel my standing order to Trocaire.

[Andrew49]

The offence of misconduct in public office. This has been generally used in respect of the police and their failure to act when their attention is drawn to a particular matter. For example, their failure to respond to a 999 call. However, with a bit of ingenuity, it could be possible to ground a case for misconduct in public office on the basis of the patronage of bishops in respect of schools where abuse took place within schools - which would be an interesting case and holds the possibility of success - but it would require a determination of the courts, so it cannot be said with any authority.

The way the mood is now ...... you never know!

I'll pass this on to 'interested' parties.

[moss]

The senior churchman said his actions in 1975 had been part of a process that removed the shamed cleric’s licence to act as a priest.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cardinal-under-pressure-to-resign-over-child-abuse-case-449998.html

No mention of removing him from society and preventing him from abusing children. Brass neck Brady knows no bounds.

[C. Flower]

Helen McGonagle, who was abused by Brendan Smyth as a child, said today that Sean Brady has the blood of suicide victims on his hands, and has only admitted his actions as a result of a High Court Action, after covering them up for 35 years.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cardinal-has-blood-on-his-hands-450073.html

[moss]

Helen McGonagle, who was abused by Brendan Smyth as a child, said today that Sean Brady has the blood of suicide victims on his hands, and has only admitted his actions as a result of a High Court Action, after covering them up for 35 years.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cardinal-has-blood-on-his-hands-450073.html


“He has absolutely no excuses for that, none whatsoever, other than he is protecting the hierarchy of the church itself and not protecting children or people.”

The lawyer said the Cardinal should also be charged for for obstruction of justice.

“If this is not the obstruction of justice I don’t know what is,” she said.

“Swearing victims to an oath of secrecy and maintaining secrecy and saying that the canon law supersedes civil law and that we’re to maintain a vow of silence while others can be harmed. That cannot be tolerated.

Nail on head.

[moss]

Everyone can relax. Benny has a letter to soothe our souls.


A senior Vatican official has said Pope Benedict XVI will speak with a "clear and decisive voice" when he addresses clerical sex abuses in Ireland in a forthcoming letter.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/pope-to-address-irish-abuse-scandals-with-decisive-letter-450098.html

No mention of prosecutions, resignations or admitting cover ups. But hey he wrote a letter.

[ZANU-FF]

maybe Benedict will explain why Brendan Smyth was sent packing from Rome in the 40's?

What did Smyth do in Rome?

Why was he sent packing?

Tell us Benedict.

[Stendec]

maybe Benedict will explain why Brendan Smyth was sent packing from Rome in the 40's?

What did Smyth do in Rome?

Why was he sent packing?

Tell us Benedict.

ratzingers as bad as the rest of them. the government should just stop dealing with the church!! no schools no hospitals no charitys nothing end of!!

[Newsy]

Brady represented the Church at these meetings....but on the other side of the table were two teenage victims of sexual abuse by a Church rep.

Was there anyone with these two teenagers e.g. parent/guardian/solicitor, representing them.....in their corner, as it were??

Who set up these meetings and what were the victims told, would be the focus of such meetings??

[moss]

Good questions Newsy.

Would good catholic parents/guardians/solicitors have helped ? The Guards and other authorities were only too happy to help the cover up.
Good catholic Ireland invaded all sections of the community. Thankfully that is dying out.

The alledged victims were told to keep quiet. This was the purpose of the meetings.

All too often families want to keep these issues in-house. The clergy, guards, politicians etc all have questions to answer. So does society in Ireland.

[Newsy]

The alledged victims were told to keep quiet. This was the purpose of the meetings.

moss, I would wonder, if in organising these meetings, the priest or rep who contacted the victims or their families said to them..'oh and by the way there will be forms here that these young people will sign. These forms have to do with keeping the mouths shut'.

Or were these forms presented on the day??

What IF they refused to sign......what then??? Would Brady still have made his report to the bishop???

Was signing these forms a kind of blackmail.....just asking the question!!!!!

[Newsy]

Would good catholic parents/guardians/solicitors have helped ? The Guards and other authorities were only too happy to help the cover up.
Good catholic Ireland invaded all sections of the community. Thankfully that is dying out..

I agree with you.......BUT, were they even given the opportunity???

[C. Flower]

There is a court case being taken against Sean Brady. These things will certainly come out.

[moss]

What IF they refused to sign......what then??? Would Brady still have made his report to the bishop???


The same actions would have been implemented whether or not these children signed the gagging statements.
Cover up.

Did Cardinal Bradys report achieve anything other than to stop Fr Brendan Smyth hearing confessions and allowing him to abuse children for another 20 years ?

[Newsy]

The same actions would have been implemented whether or not these children signed the gaging statements.
Cover up.

Did Cardinal Bradys report achieve anything other than to stop Fr Brendan Smyth hearing confessions and allowing him to abuse children for another 20 years ?

The only thing brady's report achieved was to strip smyth from performing the sacraments.....taking his priestly licence.

THAT WAS IT.

[moss]

I agree with you.......BUT, were they even given the opportunity???

As far as I'm concerned, yes, society in general had the opportunity to stop this.
Catholic Ireland turned a blind eye.

[moss]

The only thing brady's report achieved was to strip smyth from performing the sacraments.....taking his priestly licence.

THAT WAS IT.

Exactly. The RCC should not be trusted to investigate itself. Nor should any body.
Brady was involved in nothing more than the beginnings of a cover up to protect abusers.

[Newsy]

Exactly. The RCC should not be trusted to investigate itself. Nor should any body.
Brady was involved in nothing more than the beginnings of a cover up to protect abusers.

Listening to drive time. Now

It is on this subject

[Newsy]

There is a court case being taken against Sean Brady. These things will certainly come out.

This case began in 1997.

This case has being delayed, because of lack of disclosure of documents.

[Newsy]

Allibrandi, in 1974 was told that there was a big issue with Smyth......he didn't want to know.

[moss]

Allibrandi, in 1974 was told that there was a big issue with Smyth......he didn't want to know.

Cardinal Brady was pushing gaging orders in 1975. No clergy wanted to know.

[C. Flower]

Today FM - Colm O'Gorman and a Canon Law spokesperson (didn't catch the name) ripped into each other.

The meeting in the Vatican was for the Pope to rally the fight back. They sent Martin back home with a flea in his ear. The Pope, Cardinal, Bishops and priests are digging in their heels

But they won't and can't win.

[Newsy]

Cardinal Brady was pushing gaging orders in 1975. No clergy wanted to know.

Allibrandi was approached in 1974 as well as the bishop.....neither of them wanted to know.

There is a trail leading (proof wise) that there was a policy of cover-up. Brady has said that there was NO cover-up, but the proof is beginning to emerge.

[Newsy]

But they won't and can't win.

No, they can't.

[C. Flower]

Allibrandi was approached in 1974 as well as the bishop.....neither of them wanted to know.

There is a trail leading (proof wise) that there was a policy of cover-up. Brady has said that there was NO cover-up, but the proof is beginning to emerge.

It was Church policy to cover up. The policy was to suppress "scandal" at all costs, and carry on raping.

Brady carried out Church policy. Why do you think he was promoted ?

If he resigns, it won't change a thing.

[Newsy]

It was Church policy to cover up. The policy was to suppress "scandal" at all costs, and carry on raping.

Brady carried out Church policy. Why do you think he was promoted ?

If he resigns, it won't change a thing.

There has always been the suspicion of cover-up....BUT there appears NOW to be proof.....legal proof.

Brady has denied it, but the proof is coming.

The dogs on the streets knew there was church policy....but they kept denying it......but from listening to drive time.....there will be a lot to come out to show, legally, there was a policy of cover-up.

Yes, it will change. It will take time and it will take humility.

It IS changing. Three bishops are gone......the pope is under pressure......the Cardinal is having to defend himself......that is massive change......remember, this is Ireland and our cardinal is having to DEFEND himself.....:eek: :)

[C. Flower]

Colm O'Gorman's blogs provides the details of the secret protocol that required secrecy about sexual crimes by clerics.

http://colmogorman.com/

[moss]

Colm O'Gorman's blogs provides the details of the secret protocol that required secrecy about sexual crimes by clerics.

http://colmogorman.com/


Cheers for the link cactus. Hard reading.



And that’s the thing that really sickens me about this. Secrecy is what allowed those two children to be abused, secrecy is what didn’t let them tell anyone about it and get the help they needed, and secrecy is what allowed Brendan Smyth to rape and abuse dozens more children after Sean Brady and his clerical colleagues washed their hands of what they knew.

The quote above is one of the less distressing paragraphs.

[Tony1975]

If he resigns, it won't change a thing.

I hope he doesn't resign. I hope he and Benny carry on in their roles for as long as possible.
They can serve as constant reminders of the evil that lies within the catholic church.
They have not changed. They will never change. But the general public can, and will. 50 years from now there will be very few priests in this country and they will be attending to a tiny flock. The catholic church is doomed.

[Andrew49]

The Unholy Trinity

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/unholytrinity.jpg

Cardinal Cahal Daly knew about Father Brendan Smyth and wrote letters in 1990 and 1992 to one of Smyth's victims and the victim's family, offered sympathy, admitted he knew of the priest's activities and had previously spoken to his abbot, but professed he could do "nothing more." Daly had been attacked by the Irish media for this denial of his power. There had been calls, including one from a nine-year victim of Smyth's abuse, for Daly's resignation. Daly died with his cassock intact.

[5intheface]

Daly died with his cassock intact.

Not in my mind, I showed remarkable restraint when he died and observed requests for moderation. Time has now passed.

He was a rat from a family of rats.

[Andrew49]

Not in my mind, I showed remarkable restraint when he died and observed requests for moderation. Time has now passed.

He was a rat from a family of rats.

:) ....

[Tony1975]

Not in my mind, I showed remarkable restraint when he died and observed requests for moderation. Time has now passed.

He was a rat from a family of rats.

I wasn't quite so diplomatic.
I regret nothing.;)

[Andrew49]

In September 2001, a French court sent a Roman Catholic bishop to jail for failing to inform police that a priest in his diocese had admitted to sexually abusing children. The sentence was suspended of course.

The Bishop was given a three month suspended sentence after being convicted of failing to report sexual abuse by one of his priests. Pierre Pican became the first bishop in modern French history to receive a criminal conviction after a Normandy court found him guilty of failing to report sexual abuse by one of his priests. Father Rene Bissey was sentenced to 18 years in prison after being convicted of raping and sexually abusing 11 minors from 1996-1998. Pican admitted in June 2000 he had concealed the priest's paedophile activities, but said he would do the same again.

He learned of Bissey's offences in 1996 from the vicar general of Normandy, who had been approached by distressed parents. He sent Bissey on a retreat and for psychiatric help. Two years later he transferred him to a nearby parish, where he was arrested. After Pican was charged in January 2000, his legal team argued he was motivated by professional secrecy. The sentence was lighter than the four-to-six-month suspended prison term sought by Prosecutor Segondat. The maximum sentence would have been three years in jail.

[Andrew49]

The Oath Of Secrecy (below) ties the papacy and the Vatican State in the worldwide cover-up of CLERGY SEXUAL TERRORISM

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/TheOathOfSecrecy.jpg

[Newsy]

The Oath Of Secrecy (below) ties the papacy and the Vatican State in the worldwide cover-up of CLERGY SEXUAL TERRORISM

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/TheOathOfSecrecy.jpg

That truly is damning!!!!

[moss]

You really couldn't make this stuff up.


A priest convicted of sexually abusing children while the pope was archbishop of his diocese has been suspended from his pastoral duties for breaking a promise not to work with youths again.

Prelate Josef Obermaier, who was responsible for assigning the pastor to his current position, serving the spiritual needs of tourists and visitors in an undisclosed location, also resigned, the archdiocese said.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/catholic-priest-abuser-removed-from-his-post--again-450126.html

Still all is not lost. Joseph is going to write a letter. I can't wait to read that.

[Newsy]

You really couldn't make this stuff up.



http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/catholic-priest-abuser-removed-from-his-post--again-450126.html

Still all is not lost. Joseph is going to write a letter. I can't wait to read that.


Around 300 cases of abuse have been reported across the country so far since the first German victims came forward in January.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/catholic-priest-abuser-removed-from-his-post--again-450126.html#ixzz0iHp03lpS

300 cases of abuse since January!!!!

This potentially could be absolutely HUGE.

[C. Flower]

Frontline, tonight.

"Child abuse was not understood as we now know it"...in 1975.
That priest who wears a jumper - forget his name.

Marie Collins looks fed up to the back teeth having to listen to this again. I don't know where she gets her patience.
She says that Brady alone questioned the children for one enquiry.

She also said that nobody except his colleagues knew that Smyth had any restrictions: parents and children weren't warned in any way.

[Andrew49]

Frontline, tonight.

"Child abuse was not understood as we now know it"...in 1975.
That priest who wears a jumper - forget his name.

Marie Collins looks fed up to the back teeth having to listen to this again. I don't know where she gets her patience.
She says that Brady alone questioned the children for one enquiry.

She also said that nobody except his colleagues knew that Smyth had any restrictions: parents and children weren't warned in any way.

Well it's all bullshit - this 'we didn't understand .... ' - in the 1930s two Irish Christian Brothers were ...... hanged for raping and murdering two little boys. This 'incident' happened in Canada and the Irish Christian Brothers admitted it at the Ryan/Laffoy Commission.

[Andrew49]

Awareness of the problem of priests' and bishops' sexual activity is not a recent phenomenon. Historical church documents are consistent in their acknowledgment of the existence and extent of violations of celibacy and clerics that have sex with minors. It is clear that abuse has been a perennial problem and neither restricted to ancient history nor of recent origin. (Cf. Documents and regulations written and promulgated by the Vatican in 1662, 1714, 1890, 1962, & 2002)

19. Clearly, sexual abuse by clergy is neither simply a current aberration nor a passing phenomenon, but has deep systemic roots.

20. Every bishop, without exception, has known that sexual activity of a priest with a minor is a violation of the requirement of clerical celibacy.

21. A great deal is known within the clerical system about the sexual activity of other clerics. In 1976 I [Richard Sipe] already had enough experience and evidence to estimate that 6% of Catholic priests involved themselves sexually with minors. On the completion of a 25-year ethnographic study (1960-1985) I was confident of the validity of that estimate. [Current figures for the Boston Archdiocese, one of the best-studied areas, reveal that 7.6% of its priests had sexual contact with minors.] The bishops' commissioned report released February 27, 2004 states that 4,400 (4%) American priests over a 50-year period had been credibly reported as abusers of minors. The researchers believe that abuse is under-reported. Seven hundred (700) US priests between 2002 and 2004 have been relieved of their ministerial duties because of alleged abuse. Knowledge of sexual activity once secret, and still hidden, within the clerical system, has become progressively more public. The fact can not be denied that sexual abuse of minors by priests is a long-standing, pervasive, and nation-wide problem. (Cf. Sex, Priests & Secret Codes, 2006)

The Sipe Report (http://www.richardsipe.com/reports/sipe_report_V.htm)

[Tony1975]

Not a single bishop or senior clergyman available to go on Vincent Brown tonight. Not one.

[Newsy]

Not a single bishop or senior clergyman available to go on Vincent Brown tonight. Not one.

All gone to ground.

[Tony1975]

All gone to ground.

Even Golden Boy Diarmuid Martin.

[ZANU-FF]

Has Diarmuid Martin left the RC Church?

Mr Martin has been muzzled by the corrupt church IMO

I expect something big from him over the next day or two.

[Newsy]

Has Diarmuid Martin left the RC Church?

Mr Martin has been muzzled by the corrupt church IMO

I expect something big from him over the next day or two.

IF Brady goes, he will have to say something.

[ZANU-FF]

IF Brady goes, he will have to say something.

I doubt Mr Martin will be speaking for Brady any more.

polar opposites.

[Newsy]

I doubt Mr Martin will be speaking for Brady any more.

polar opposites.

What I meant was that IF Brady goes, won't Martin then be the most senior in the Irish Catholic Church???

I understand they are polar opposites......I was meaning rank, as it were.

[ZANU-FF]

What I meant was that IF Brady goes, won't Martin then be the most senior in the Irish Catholic Church???

I understand they are polar opposites......I was meaning rank, as it were.

I am thinking Mr Martin has diverged from broken Rome

Hopefully Mr Martin will consider starting a new church, I would assist him.

[C. Flower]

Did anyone see the Priest who had been a whistleblower ? He seemed to be in bits. Breaking with Omerta seems to carry heavy penalties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omert%C3%A0

[electionlit]

You would have to wonder if this was the only time Cardinal Brady swore children to secrecy over abuse.
It appears that the penny has yet to fully drop with the majority of Bishops, never mind the likes of Monsignor Dooley (who is doing us all a service by telling it straight from a Canon Law perspective).
Patsy McGarry in todays Irish Times reckons that the church is finished that its too late and that the only hope they have is Diarmuid Martin who appears to have been silenced since the trip to Rome.
I would like to see two things now.
Archbishop Martin to speak up and the Gardai to arrest Cardinal Brady. (It was suggested on Vincent Browwne Last night that there were laws in place in 1975 that would allow this)
Unless the Gardai are seen to act (especially as they had knowledge of this 7 years ago) they will be seen as conspiring with the church (Which they probably did at some stages in the past) and undermining themselves too.

[Andrew49]

You would have to wonder if this was the only time Cardinal Brady swore children to secrecy over abuse.
It appears that the penny has yet to fully drop with the majority of Bishops, never mind the likes of Monsignor Dooley (who is doing us all a service by telling it straight from a Canon Law perspective).
Patsy McGarry in todays Irish Times reckons that the church is finished that its too late and that the only hope they have is Diarmuid Martin who appears to have been silenced since the trip to Rome.
I would like to see two things now.
Archbishop Martin to speak up and the Gardai to arrest Cardinal Brady. (It was suggested on Vincent Browwne Last night that there were laws in place in 1975 that would allow this)
Unless the Gardai are seen to act (especially as they had knowledge of this 7 years ago) they will be seen as conspiring with the church (Which they probably did at some stages in the past) and undermining themselves too.

It can't have been the only time Brady was involved in these 'investigations'. Also it wasn't Smyths first time either - or his last!. He was still a priest - with all that that entails in the 80s and part of the 90s.

Smyth was creating havoc in the lives of children since the 1950s, some reports say since 1947. Smyth ruined the childhood lives of 1,000 children at least.

[C. Flower]

Andrew Madden has interesting things to say...


17/03/2010 - 11:52:14
Clerical sex abuse victim Andrew Madden has dismissed comments from Cardinal Sean Brady that he will reflect on reaction to his role in the 1975 handling of two abuse cases by serial paedophile Brendan Smyth.

In 1995, Andrew Madden became the first in Ireland to go public with an abuse lawsuit against the Church.

This morning, Cardinal Brady said: "This is a time for deep prayer and much reflection.” He was addressing a congregation in St Patrick’s Cathedral in Armagh.

"The notion of careful reflection is nonsense – he’s had 35 years to reflect on what he did then,” said Mr Madden.

“If the Catholic Church in Ireland is to be led by a man who accurately reflects it in its current state, then maybe it’s only right and fitting that it should be led by a man who has covered up the sexual abuse of children by a priest.

“He’s either going to go or he’s not going to go and if he doesn’t, the Catholic Church can’t pretend to be serious in any way about the issue of child protection and about reaching out to people who have been abused.”


Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/madden-cardinals-notion-of-careful-reflection-nonsense-450322.html#ixzz0iRq6E3U7 (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/madden-cardinals-notion-of-careful-reflection-nonsense-450322.html#ixzz0iRq6E3U7)

[MediaBite]

Letter in Irish Examiner today:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/i-reported-a-child-abuser-ndash-and-i-was-only-13-114742.html

[Andrew49]

The Belfast Telegraph has claimed that the Bishop of Derry was involved in a 'secret deal' over an alleged child sex abuse case. The article stated that Bishop Seamus Hegarty, along with Bishop Edward Daly and the alleged abuser, were named as defendants in an out-of-court settlement. The settlement related to an eight-year-old girl who was allegedly sexually abused over a ten-year period starting from 1979. It is reported that the church handed over £12,000 in compensation to the victim and that she also received a letter of apology from her alleged abuser, who was a priest from the Derry Diocese.

The compensation and letter were subject to a confidentiality agreement between the parties.

Source (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/uk-ireland/priests-victim-sworn-to-secrecy-14728595.html)

And other news.

A senior member of the Catholic Church has provoked outrage after he said he would not stop a child being abused if it breached the confidentiality of a paedophile. Monsignor Maurice Dooley was speaking amid calls for Cardinal Brady’s resignation over a failure to tell police about one of Ireland’s most notorious paedophile priests, Father Brendan Smyth.

[C. Flower]

Letter in Irish Examiner today:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/i-reported-a-child-abuser-ndash-and-i-was-only-13-114742.html



IN 1972, when I was 13-years-old, some other children revealed to me they were being routinely abused by a man whom nobody had previously realised was a paedophile.


Though it was extremely embarrassing and difficult and the children involved pleaded with me not to tell anyone because of their fear of retribution from their abuser, I knew enough to realise this was something I had to make sure their parents were made aware of.

The man was subsequently prosecuted and imprisoned
.


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/i-reported-a-child-abuser-ndash-and-i-was-only-13-114742.html#ixzz0iX8nX3EM (http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/i-reported-a-child-abuser-ndash-and-i-was-only-13-114742.html#ixzz0iX8nX3EM)

Miriam Cotton should be proud of herself. :)

[MediaBite]

Thanks CF. The situation was much worse than the letter makes evident - many more children were involved. One irate parent fired a shot through the perps window.

Blogged today: An abusers' charter - the Oath of Secrecy. Just a few thoughts on the wording of the oath and how we respond to it as a country. My 2 cents worth of protest added to other peoples' http://mediabite.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/an-abusers-charter-the-oath-of-secrecy-wording-here/

[C. Flower]

Thanks CF. The situation was much worse than the letter makes evident - many more children were involved. One irate parent fired a shot through the perps window.

Blogged today: An abusers' charter - the Oath of Secrecy. Just a few thoughts on the wording of the oath and how we respond to it as a country. My 2 cents worth of protest added to other peoples' http://mediabite.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/an-abusers-charter-the-oath-of-secrecy-wording-here/

With this going on, a little girl comes to mind who I used to know, not in Ireland, a good while ago. She was a a neighbours child, a few years older than my own child, who she used to play with, and I was fond of her. A very sunny personality, looking after her little brother. Then an uncle and two nephews came to live with the family and she quickly changed and became withdrawn. She never said to me there was a problem, and I never asked. We moved away soon after. I don't know if she was abused, but my gut feeling was something was wrong. There was also a situation where over zealous social workers had been taken children into care for no good reason. If there had been mandatory reporting, it might have given me the confidence to speak to her, or her mother, or to a person in authority.

Very often, the evidence of abuse is there in a neighbourhood, or a school, in the appearance, demeanour and behaviour of a child, staring us in the face. We need to be able to act on our worries in the confidence that we'll be listened to, and that the reaction will be genuinely looking for the best interests of the child.

[Andrew49]

I read the [Murphy] report as Justice Minister. But on a human level – as a father and as a member of this community – I felt a growing sense of revulsion and anger. Revulsion at the horrible evil acts committed against children. Anger at how those children were then dealt with and how often abusers were left free to abuse. But the white heat of our anger should not for one moment deflect us from what needs to be done. The persons who committed these dreadful crimes – no matter when they happened – will continue to be pursued. They must come to know that there is no hiding place. That justice – even where it may have been delayed – will not be denied. And there is a clear duty on us all to ensure that everything possible is done to prevent such abuse happening in the future. And where it does happen that no one is above or beyond the law. But the era where evil people could do so under the cover of the cloth, facilitated and shielded from the consequences by their authorities, while the lives of children were ruined with such cruelty, is over for good.

Over to you Minister Ahern.

[toxic avenger]

Thanks CF. The situation was much worse than the letter makes evident - many more children were involved. One irate parent fired a shot through the perps window.

Blogged today: An abusers' charter - the Oath of Secrecy. Just a few thoughts on the wording of the oath and how we respond to it as a country. My 2 cents worth of protest added to other peoples' http://mediabite.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/an-abusers-charter-the-oath-of-secrecy-wording-here/


I'm a pracising Catholic and I have been disgusted by the weasel words and downright lies I have heard from senior clerics to wriggle out of their responsibility for their actions. Cardinal Brady was a 36 year old schoolteacher, not some young naif staight in out of the fields. The arguments made on his behalf, including by this Monsignor Dooley, that people should not be judged by today's standards for what they did in 1975, are truly galling. Not only is it a retreat into temporal relativism, something that the Church is supposed to steadfastly oppose, but it's even on that score complete bullsh1t - I am old enough to remember the tail-end of the 1970s and it wasn't that different a place - nobody I know, parents, friends, whatever, would ever have stooped to basically intimidating children who had been subjected to the most heinous of crimes into keeping their mouths shut. Everyone knew it was a terrible criminal offence, then and now. The truth, if he is man enough to admit it, is that he was complicit in this disgusting abuse of an oath before God (calling God to witness that! -the sacrilege of it!) because it was just less hassle and more convenient to hush it all up and keep it 'in-house', the needs of the children, and all children, being a distant second to that. Large sections of the Catholic Church hierarchy in Ireland have for decades, stretching back to the 19th Century, been a travesty of Christianity - a toxic combination of power, repression, coldness, psychosexual immaturity, and downright cruelty. Many have displayed qualities that can legitimately be described as anti-Christ. I'm hoping against hope that the current exposure is going to cause the power-trippers, the sadists, those in it for the social prestige, etc., to finally piss off and leave the Church to actual Christians. That way it might survive and even flourish as a counter-cultural voice for love, kindness, truth, social justice etc., rather than be another corrupt part of the Establishment.

Cardinal Brady, and all like him who we might not yet know about, must resign immediately. There needs to be a complete and clear statement that they understand that Canon Law is not sufficient to deal with such cases - that the first port of call in any cases like these must be the Gardai or PSNI or the socal services, not the local Bishop. As always, it's the cover-up that is doing most of the damage, far more than even the perverts themselves. It seems that many of the Catholic Church hierarchy in Ireland don't actually understand the teachings of Christ. And they still don't seem to get it - the days of a parallel system of 'justice' for cases like this are over...

[C. Flower]

Over to you Minister Ahern.

We should not forget that Fianna Fail sneaked through a financial indemnity for the Church, just before the General Election.

We have been made to bail out abuse.

[toxic avenger]

We should not forget that Fianna Fail sneaked through a financial indemnity for the Church, just before the General Election.

We have been made to bail out abuse.

A problem remains that it'll be us, the laity, who end up paying, through collections or whatever, for the perverts and the cover-up merchants. And there's a sick injustice in the idea that people who were essentially the opposite of Christian are to be bailed out by actual Christians who are horrified by how their Church has been dragged through the slime by these people. How to get around that problem, given that the priests themselves earn little and are basically kept through charity? The Church, in our eyes, is all of us, including the laity, not just the hierarchy. So we have a situation in which the victims should be compensated (and massively) and where the only way that can be done is by the laity, the ordinary Catholics, doing the compensating. But then also why should the general population be expected to essentially cover the cost instead - that is not fair. So what's the answer? I suppose a sale of property is one way, but even that involves essentially penalising the laity too, they paid for it over generations, and property prices are falling, no-one is buying, and they'll fall another 40 or 50% yet. It's hard to know if there's any simple way to compensate victims without penalising the innocent laity who have watched their Church's moral authority trashed by perverts and their enablers.

[Andrew49]

It isn't getting any better for Sean Brady - as he wrestles with his 'conscience' - he'll have to explain his role in the recent settlement of a sex abuse case in Northern Ireland, where compensation was paid out to a victim in exchange for her silence. The latest case involves a woman who alleges she was raped by Father Joseph Quinn of the Archdiocese of Armagh in 1997 when she was 17-years-old, and whose claim was settled in the past few months.

Source (http://www.u.tv/News/Brady-faces-fresh-cover-up-allegation/c8445311-7af9-4d2c-bbd0-24279964000b)

[toxic avenger]

It isn't getting any better for Sean Brady - as he wrestles with his 'conscience' - he'll have to explain his role in the recent settlement of a sex abuse case in Northern Ireland, where compensation was paid out to a victim in exchange for her silence. The latest case involves a woman who alleges she was raped by Father Joseph Quinn of the Archdiocese of Armagh in 1997 when she was 17-years-old, and whose claim was settled in the past few months.

Source (http://www.u.tv/News/Brady-faces-fresh-cover-up-allegation/c8445311-7af9-4d2c-bbd0-24279964000b)

It doesn't matter at this stage - he should resign immediately over the 1975 case. His moral authority is shot by his being complicit in that disgrace.

[C. Flower]

It should be obvious by now what are the qualifications for promotion in the Church.

[Andrew49]

It should be obvious by now what are the qualifications for promotion in the Church.

Nail on the head award.

Very Rev Gerard McGinnity, PP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_McGinnity)

McGinnity was appointed Junior Dean at St Patrick's College, Maynooth, Ireland's national seminary, when he was 26 years old. He was appointed Senior Dean at the age of 32 in 1978, decades younger than previous holders of the post. In 1984, he was approached by students who had concerns about the behaviour of the college's Vice President, Dr Michael Ledwith, including concerns of a sexual nature. He was abruptly dismissed from his position by Tomás O'Fiaich, archbishop of his home diocese, acting on behalf of the Trustees (17 bishops) of the College.

[PaddyJoe]

On TV3 news tonight there was a reference to a high ranking garda source who said that Cardinal Brady could be prosecuted for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
Does anybody have anything further on that?

[Andrew49]

On TV3 news tonight there was a reference to a high ranking garda source who said that Cardinal Brady could be prosecuted for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
Does anybody have anything further on that?

I heard that too but can't find any update. Don't understand why it's said that Sean Brady could be prosecuted - if the oaths he administered to the two children perverted the course of justice then Brady should be prosecuted. Seems to me there is still an official 'hands-off' when it comes to matters of criminality by church figures.

Before the St Patrick's Day meeting with US President Barack Obama in the White House, Taoiseach Brian Cowen said: "The leadership I'm giving is that clearly it's important the State maintains its space and the church maintains its space. It's not a question for the State to get involved in church matters," he said. Mr Cowen did not call on the gardai to investigate whether Cardinal Brady had broken the law, despite his coalition partner Mr Gormley supporting such a move. He said the gardai were authorised to investigate if they were required to do so.

[MediaBite]

A49 - that oath of secrecy - been asked a question about it on facebook and wondering where you found it. Is it a standard oath that's used or are there other versions?
Cheers

[C. Flower]

I heard that too but can't find any update. Don't understand why it's said that Sean Brady could be prosecuted - if the oaths he administered to the two children perverted the course of justice then Brady should be prosecuted. Seems to me there is still an official 'hands-off' when it comes to matters of criminality by church figures.

Before the St Patrick's Day meeting with US President Barack Obama in the White House, Taoiseach Brian Cowen said: "The leadership I'm giving is that clearly it's important the State maintains its space and the church maintains its space. It's not a question for the State to get involved in church matters," he said. Mr Cowen did not call on the gardai to investigate whether Cardinal Brady had broken the law, despite his coalition partner Mr Gormley supporting such a move. He said the gardai were authorised to investigate if they were required to do so.

However, it is a question for the State to get involved in matters of assaults on children and "perversion of the course of justice."

[moss]

Creating more wriggle room


In a statement this evening, the spokeman said it was understood by all parties that the oaths would no longer be binding once all evidence was gathered from witnesses.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cardinal-brady-understood-oaths-were-not-permanently-binding-450661.html

Did the oaths specify a time limit or that they would be irrelevent once the church covered its tracks ?
What happened once the RCC gathered all the evidence ? Smyth could no longer hear confessions ?

[C. Flower]

Creating more wriggle room



http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cardinal-brady-understood-oaths-were-not-permanently-binding-450661.html

Did the oaths specify a time limit or that they would be irrelevent once the church covered its tracks ?
What happened once the RCC gathered all the evidence ? Smyth could no longer hear confessions ?

This smells of following legal advice.

[moss]

This smells of following legal advice.

Which should serve no purpose if the oaths of secrecy never included any time frame.
Do the RCC need legal advice other than to save money ?
Where are the prosecutions ?
To me it smells of keeping the faithfully deluded onboard as they muddy the waters.

[C. Flower]

Which should serve no purpose if the oaths of secrecy never included any time frame.
Do the RCC need legal advice other than to save money ?
Where are the prosecutions ?
To me it smells of keeping the faithfully deluded onboard as they muddy the waters.

That too. But there may be some connection with perverting the course of justice potentially being an issue.

[Andrew49]

Not believable at all .... the oath specifically says .... ' commit anything against this fidelity to the secret, unless a dispensation has been expressly given to me by the Supreme Pontiff. '

[C. Flower]

Not believable at all .... the oath specifically says .... ' commit anything against this fidelity to the secret, unless a dispensation has been expressly given to me by the Supreme Pontiff. '

Did I here that wording being disputed on the Pat Kenny show today ?
I think it said it was a priest, not the Pope, who could give dispensation.

This whole issue is just dynamite.

[Andrew49]

Did I here that wording being disputed on the Pat Kenny show today ?
I think it said it was a priest, not the Pope, who could give dispensation.

This whole issue is just dynamite.

I have two of the oaths on another thread. On the Pat Kenny radio show I think I heard Pat quote another so-called oath beginning 'I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' ,,,, yet Pat didn't question this and didn't apply his considerable forensic interviewing skills and ask .... """ excuse me mister excuser for the church but didn't Sean Brady administer the oath (whatever oath) AFTER evidence was taken? ""

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd9jhs_oath-of-secrecy_news

[C. Flower]

The two people who signed the oath would surely know ? Or maybe not, after all this time.

[moss]

The two people who signed the oath would surely know ? Or maybe not, after all this time.

I doubt at the time they took much notice. They were children abused by a priest and being asked to sign an oath of secrecy by a priest.
Fear and intimidation springs to my mind.

[C. Flower]

Pat K certainly didn't seem to ask questions. Yes, it must have been a ghastly and intimidating experience. It's possible that words may have stuck in the mind all the same

[Art]

It was interesting to read David Quinn in the Irish Independent during the week. On Wednesday he was threatening that lay people have a lot to fear if the same standards of openness that we are trying to apply to the catholic church are applied elsewhere. In todays paper he was at it again.

He just doesn't get it at all! The church run approx. 90% of our schools, they are a secretive organisation who knowingly have protected child abusers for decades. Thats the story David not trying to deflect blame and frighten people by threatening other organisations.

[moss]

It was interesting to read David Quinn in the Irish Independent during the week. On Wednesday he was threatening that lay people have a lot to fear if the same standards of openness that we are trying to apply to the catholic church are applied elsewhere. In todays paper he was at it again.

He just doesn't get it at all! The church run approx. 90% of our schools, they are a secretive organisation who knowingly have protected child abusers for decades. Thats the story David not trying to deflect blame and frighten people by threatening other organisations.

I hear what you're saying but the state is also complicit. They farmed out the breeding grounds for abuse and washed their hands afterwards.

[Art]

Sorry I didn't mean to post that again.

I agree the state is also complicit, but really I don't buy it that they are as guilty. While they respected the church too much and didn't ask questions, I dont think they knew that abuse was taking place.

[PaddyJoe]

St Pat's College Cavan 1975. Did college retreats still take place in Kilnacrott Abbey while Brady was a teacher?

[Andrew49]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/GermanShepherdSaysSorry.jpg
German Shepherd Apologises To Flock!

[C. Flower]

Just listening to RTE Radio One review of the week.

Monsignor Dooley said that it would have been a "violation of his obligations" dor Brady to report the rape of children.
He 100% holds to the line that Canon law, for the clergy, overrides state law.

He claims that "the ancient law of misprision of felony" exempted the clergy from obligation to report.

Another contributor said that up to 1998 it was a criminal offence and that it is an offence again after a disgraceful 10 year gap.

This is a matter for the Gardai to resolve asap.

[Andrew49]

Just listening to RTE Radio One review of the week.

Monsignor Dooley said that it would have been a "violation of his obligations" dor Brady to report the rape of children.
He 100% holds to the line that Canon law, for the clergy, overrides state law.

He claims that "the ancient law of misprision of felony" exempted the clergy from obligation to report.

Another contributor said that up to 1998 it was a criminal offence and that it is an offence again after a disgraceful 10 year gap.

This is a matter for the Gardai to resolve asap.

No code of ethics required in canon law - that's the view of practicing lawyers!

Listening to the review of the week it doesn't bode well for Ratzinger's letter, apparently its to be an apology to abuse vicims. A person more articulate that me has pointed out that the letter is specifically directed at practicing Catholics here.

Having studied what Ratzinger said to American Catholics I expect the letter to point the finger at the wider world, at the media ....


Moreover, by acknowledging and confronting the problem when it occurs in an ecclesial setting, you can give a lead to others, since this scourge is found not only within your Dioceses, but in every sector of society. It calls for a determined, collective response.

No mention of 'heinous crimes' instead it was 'gravely immoral behaviour'

[Tony1975]

Just listening to RTE Radio One review of the week.

Monsignor Dooley said that it would have been a "violation of his obligations" dor Brady to report the rape of children.
He 100% holds to the line that Canon law, for the clergy, overrides state law.

He claims that "the ancient law of misprision of felony" exempted the clergy from obligation to report.

Another contributor said that up to 1998 it was a criminal offence and that it is an offence again after a disgraceful 10 year gap.

This is a matter for the Gardai to resolve asap.

A very good reason why anyone who wears one of those stupid white collars should be watched closely by the police. Anyone who thinks that state laws don't apply to them is a serious danger.

[C. Flower]

The stream of reports that Sean Brady and others tried to prevent reporting of rape to the Police goes on.

Is this being investigated by the Police Force ? If not, why not ? My non-professional understanding is that the law on this in the UK is quite clear ?

Is it considered a political hot potato ?

[Andrew49]

Interesting response to papal bull from the New York Times.

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/world/europe/21pope.html?ref=global-home)

Nowhere in the letter did Benedict address the responsibility of the Vatican itself. Many victims’ groups have criticized the Vatican for not recognizing the depth and scope of the abuse crisis sooner. Nor did he use the term punishment, or spell out any consequences for clergy or bishops who had not upheld canon or civil law. Indeed, he laid blame firmly with Irish Catholic leaders.

I predicted the response would be more fingerpointing and I was right. Other than that the letter is much ado about nothing.

[Andrew49]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/yourapology.jpg

[C. Flower]

Interesting response to papal bull from the New York Times.

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/world/europe/21pope.html?ref=global-home)

Nowhere in the letter did Benedict address the responsibility of the Vatican itself. Many victims’ groups have criticized the Vatican for not recognizing the depth and scope of the abuse crisis sooner. Nor did he use the term punishment, or spell out any consequences for clergy or bishops who had not upheld canon or civil law. Indeed, he laid blame firmly with Irish Catholic leaders.

I predicted the response would be more fingerpointing and I was right. Other than that the letter is much ado about nothing.

From the outside, this looks like one big damp squib, but how are churchgoers feeling about this ? From the RTE vox pops, it look as though most of them are over 60...?

[C. Flower]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/papal-letter-branded-weak-450860.html

Did anyone go to Church this weekend ?

From what I've heard and read, as well as a summary of the Pope's letter in some, people were treated to sermons on forgiveness and pleas for sympathy for Sean Brady.

A man went in to Kerry Cathedral and shouted at the Bishop - he was promptly arrested.

A lot of muttering going on about never going back to Church apart from weddings and funerals ?

Is that a cop out ?

[Andrew49]

Haven't been to Church since '67.

Many priests are now suffering from the sins of the Fathers .... and Sean Brady never offered an apology to any of the children he administered oaths to 35 and more years ago.

You can be sure that the man who shouted at the bishop in Kerry is no member of SOCA (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0321/abuse.html) ... apparently this organisation has thanked the pope for his 'unprecedented apology' !

For those not familiar with SOCA here's a video of the response they gave to the Ryan Report.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7by_2N79Qog

and Part two of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmq6b197KIA

That's Mr John Kelly of SOCA virulent opponent of the Ryan Report and extreme supporter of the Ryan Report !

Mr Kelly excoriated other survivors who supported Judge Ryan and Justice Laffoy despite it's very flawed nature. Now he seeks to ride on the public wave of revulsion following the publication of the Ryan Report.

Mr Kelly also held secret meetings with the bishops in Maynooth - making sure that Paddy Doyle, Mick Waters, Christine Buckley & Bernadette Fahey were excluded. These Bishops (many of them known to the Murphy Commission) appear to have a very malleable tool in their hands. Obviously there is deviousness afoot here. Did I mention that cardinal Sean Brady sat in on the secret meeting? That would explain why the four people I mentioned have not heard anything of what happened at the secret meeting. It's plain that Oath Giver and Note Taker cardinal Sean Brady administered oaths to SOCA at this meeting!

Mr Kelly also said:


“Now that the Ryan commission is finished we call upon Pope Benedict to convene a special consistory court to fully investigate the activities of Catholic religious orders in Ireland. Among other things, such a court could establish the whereabouts of Irish state assets that were misappropriated over many years by the religious orders and make restitution to the Irish state exchequer.”


Mr Kelly must have missed that bit in the Ryan Report that the State was equally culpable for the abuses committed against innocent children …. why make restitution to the state exchequer ? It was the children who were abused - NOT the exchequer! !

That bit was only mentioned in just 6 of the volumes of the 6 volumes of the Ryan Report so it's understandable that Mr Kellym SOCA and supporter of Ratzinger, missed it :rolleyes:

[Stendec]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/papal-letter-branded-weak-450860.html

Did anyone go to Church this weekend ?

From what I've heard and read, as well as a summary of the Pope's letter in some, people were treated to sermons on forgiveness and pleas for sympathy for Sean Brady.

A man went in to Kerry Cathedral and shouted at the Bishop - he was promptly arrested.

A lot of muttering going on about never going back to Church apart from weddings and funerals ?

Is that a cop out ?

the wrong man was arrested!!

[Andrew49]

Why are churchgoers in Galway being asked to seek forgiveness for crimes they did not commit or cover up? Next Sunday is Palm Sunday and Bishop of Galway Martin Drennan has planned a service of reparation in the city’s cathedral at which all will seek forgiveness for clerical child sex abuse. Nowhere in Ireland had people in the pews anything to do with child sex abuse by priests and/or religious. Unless, that is, they were the parents, siblings, or friends of the abused. Or the abused themselves. But Bishop Drennan was an auxiliary Bishop of Dublin from September 1997 until July 2005. He was part of the ruling cadre of the archdiocese and, even if Cardinal Connell was boss, he and the other auxiliary bishops had an input into decisions.

Bishop Drennan was auxiliary bishop when Fr Noel Reynolds was chaplain at the National Rehabilitation Institute in Dún Laoghaire, where children were being treated up to July 1998. It is a part of the archdiocese for which he had direct responsibility. He was auxiliary bishop when, in November 1998, the mother of two girls abused by Fr Reynolds – one with a crucifix – complained to the archdiocese. Fr Reynolds admitted the abuse, but no one told the Garda.

Faithful asked to repent for sins of the fathers .... and bishops - Irish Times March 25 2010 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0325/1224267012490.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyxRONnEn5s

[Tony1975]

It is being reported, both here and abroad, that Ratzinger will force Sean Brady to resign.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7078315.ece


“Ireland needs a fresh start,” a source in Rome said. “By clinging on, he is putting his own interests before the Church’s.”

Can he really do this without taking the same step himself?

And will it make any difference? I suspect that it is already too late for the Catholic Church, particularly in Ireland.

[Andrew49]

It is being reported, both here and abroad, that Ratzinger will force Sean Brady to resign.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7078315.ece


Can he really do this without taking the same step himself?

And will it make any difference? I suspect that it is already too late for the Catholic Church, particularly in Ireland.

Ratzinger is multitasking - digging himself into a hole and putting out fires! Fires are appearing in Wisconsin, Ireland, Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, Italy and in the Vatican. If he gets out of this I'll personally canonise him - while rowing up the river Poe in my trusty canoe.

[johnfás]

Maybe they'll slip him a pill like the powers that be seem to do to alot of popes....

[C. Flower]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cardinal-brady-will-not-be-forced-to-resign-451627.html

Brady is fighting back. Will he bring Ratzinger down with him ? The reality seems to be that Ratzinger as head of the Congregation in the Vatican played a specific role - requiring that all reports of assaults on children should be passed to to him so that he could micromanage the burying of them.

[Andrew49]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cardinal-brady-will-not-be-forced-to-resign-451627.html

Brady is fighting back. Will he bring Ratzinger down with him ? The reality seems to be that Ratzinger as head of the Congregation in the Vatican played a specific role - requiring that all reports of assaults on children should be passed to to him so that he could micromanage the burying of them.

Ratzinger played a leading role (some say THE leading role) in a systematic cover-up of child sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests. In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of the protection of children. The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated. An oath of secrecy was forced on the victims. Ratzinger set in train the harbouring paedophile clergymen within the Church. Priests who abused children were simply moved to another parish, diocese or even other countries often to reoffend. Hush funds and threats of excommunication were used to silence victims and their families.

Before being elected as Pope Benedict XVI, Ratzinger was the head of the powerful Congregation of the Doctrine of The Faith, the department of the Roman Catholic Church charged with promoting Catholic teachings on morals and matters of faith. An arch-Conservative, he was regarded as the 'enforcer' of Pope John Paul II in cracking down on liberal challenges to traditional Catholic teachings. In 2001 he sent out an updated version of the notorious 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis - Latin for The Crime of Solicitation - which laid down the Vatican's strict instructions on covering up sexual scandal - paedophilia and bestiality. It was regarded as so secret that it came with instructions that bishops had to keep it locked in a safe at all times. Ratzinger reinforced the strict cover-up policy by introducing a new principle: that the Vatican must have what it calls Exclusive Competence. In other words, he commanded that all child abuse allegations should be dealt with direct by Rome.

Father Tom Doyle, a Vatican lawyer until he was sacked for criticising the church's handling of child abuse claims, says:
"What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen. When abusive priests are discovered, the response has been not to investigate and prosecute but to move them from one place to another. So there's total disregard for the victims and for the fact that you are going to have a whole new crop of victims in the next place. This is happening all over the world."

[Xray]

If that priest on the late late last nite was the face of the church I would take it a lot more seriously.

[C. Flower]

Ratzinger played a leading role (some say THE leading role) in a systematic cover-up of child sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests. In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of the protection of children. The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated. An oath of secrecy was forced on the victims. Ratzinger set in train the harbouring paedophile clergymen within the Church. Priests who abused children were simply moved to another parish, diocese or even other countries often to reoffend. Hush funds and threats of excommunication were used to silence victims and their families.

Before being elected as Pope Benedict XVI, Ratzinger was the head of the powerful Congregation of the Doctrine of The Faith, the department of the Roman Catholic Church charged with promoting Catholic teachings on morals and matters of faith. An arch-Conservative, he was regarded as the 'enforcer' of Pope John Paul II in cracking down on liberal challenges to traditional Catholic teachings. In 2001 he sent out an updated version of the notorious 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis - Latin for The Crime of Solicitation - which laid down the Vatican's strict instructions on covering up sexual scandal - paedophilia and bestiality. It was regarded as so secret that it came with instructions that bishops had to keep it locked in a safe at all times. Ratzinger reinforced the strict cover-up policy by introducing a new principle: that the Vatican must have what it calls Exclusive Competence. In other words, he commanded that all child abuse allegations should be dealt with direct by Rome.

Father Tom Doyle, a Vatican lawyer until he was sacked for criticising the church's handling of child abuse claims, says:

Is this why there were people crying outside the Vatican when he was elected Pope ?

[Xray]

The Church needs to move on from a Royalist model. It is trying to pretend we all exist in some ear when most people are uneducated and needed books read to them by educated priests etc. It is totally crazy to have the current model in a the modern world, it will totally destroy itself if it does not radically renew itself. Only core tenants of the faith should be centrally protects, beyond that the rules should be selected locally. Priests not marrying is a classic example.
The Pope has been shown time and again not to be speaking for God, so why still pretend he is? The Pope made sense in a reliously charged politcal past to try protect Catholics living in many countries, it is an utter nonsense now beyond very narrow roles.

[johnfás]

The Church needs to move on from a Royalist model. It is trying to pretend we all exist in some ear when most people are uneducated and needed books read to them by educated priests etc. It is totally crazy to have the current model in a the modern world, it will totally destroy itself if it does not radically renew itself. Only core tenants of the faith should be centrally protects, beyond that the rules should be selected locally. Priests not marrying is a classic example.
The Pope has been shown time and again not to be speaking for God, so why still pretend he is? The Pope made sense in a reliously charged politcal past to try protect Catholics living in many countries, it is an utter nonsense now beyond very narrow roles.

Indeed... but there are plenty of us who are religious and have argued this for several hundred years at this stage and the Catholic Church hasn't yet budged to our position... but there ya are...

[Xray]

Indeed... but there are plenty of us who are religious and have argued this for several hundred years at this stage and the Catholic Church hasn't yet budged to our position... but there ya are...

The Catholic Church in Ireland is starting to look very Protestant to me, we will have to find some other reason to hate each other soon :rolleyes:

[johnfás]

The Catholic Church in Ireland is starting to look very Protestant to me, we will have to find some other reason to hate each other soon :rolleyes:

I don't hate the Catholic Church in the slightest. We have incredibly close relations with our three local Catholic parishes and we will have a joint Easter Sunday celebration at sunrise next Sunday afternoon up Ticknock Mountain over Dublin for anybody who wishes to come along. However, I have problems with their institutional structure and the attitude of that structure towards celibacy, the laity and women. But it seems alot of Catholics have the same problems, one just wonders what they'll do with those feelings.

[Xray]

I don't hate the Catholic Church in the slightest. We have incredibly close relations with our three local Catholic parishes and we will have a joint Easter Sunday celebration at sunrise next Sunday afternoon up Ticknock Mountain over Dublin for anybody who wishes to come along. However, I have problems with their institutional structure and the attitude of that structure towards celibacy, the laity and women. But it seems alot of Catholics have the same problems, one just wonders what they'll do with those feelings.

Perhaps pray with like minded people at sunrise next Sunday by the sounds of it.

[C. Flower]

Sexual abuse thrives where people are made out to have special powers, in all kinds of cults not just in the RC. I posted a thread here about the Family, which is evangelical protestant and excessively heterosexual, in which child abuse was rampant.

[johnfás]

All types of abuse are going to be rampant in any institutional structure which delegates power in an undemocratic way and where systems of accountability are lacking. One can see exactly the same thing playing out in a different context in respect of the banks and the same is true in all sorts of instances. That is why it was so prevalent, for example, in swimming coaches of high performance young athletes. Everybody knows that coaches of high performance youngsters get total access, much control and little accountability. These are problems which permeate our society. I saw that priest on the Late Late last night and his statement regarding the pyramidical structure of the Catholic Church is quite right - Pope at top, Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, Priests - all lacking accountability and held up by the laity at the bottom. Doesn't have to be that way, isn't inherent to religion and plenty of us do it differently. Doesn't have to be that way in any type of organisation.

[C. Flower]

Perhaps pray with like minded people at sunrise next Sunday by the sounds of it.

It'll take more than prayer to shift the Pope.:)

[5intheface]

It'll take more than prayer to shift the Pope.:)

Papal inshiftability?

[Xray]

It'll take more than prayer to shift the Pope.:)

Maybe shifting the Pope is not the answer.

Maybe people who are Spiritually inspired don't need him. Maybe God is on the hill at sunrise. I am not religious, but I suspect if he does exist He is more likely to be found there than in a center of power in Rome. And more likely to respond to prayers by sending Johnfas than changing the Popes outlook.

[Xray]

All types of abuse are going to be rampant in any institutional structure which delegates power in an undemocratic way and where systems of accountability are lacking. One can see exactly the same thing playing out in a different context in respect of the banks and the same is true in all sorts of instances. That is why it was so prevalent, for example, in swimming coaches of high performance young athletes. Everybody knows that coaches of high performance youngsters get total access, much control and little accountability. These are problems which permeate our society. I saw that priest on the Late Late last night and his statement regarding the pyramidical structure of the Catholic Church is quite right - Pope at top, Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, Priests - all lacking accountability and held up by the laity at the bottom. Doesn't have to be that way, isn't inherent to religion and plenty of us do it differently. Doesn't have to be that way in any type of organisation.

+1

People who want sexual access to children will go where there is control, secrecy lalck of accountability. The church was such as place and maybe still is. The did not abuse because they were Christian or Catholic, they abused because they could. If you want to know where kids are abused know, thing of where then spend time out of the sight of people that would prevent such abuse.

[5intheface]

People who want sexual access to children will go where there is control, secrecy lalck of accountability.

Yip, it's not as if being a swimming coach triggers predatory sexual urges. What is specific to the church is the fact that many young men were encouraged/pressured into the priesthood at a time when it was often a secure job rather than a vocation. It resulted in a swathe of completely unsuitable people in the church's ranks.

[C. Flower]

Yip, it's not as if being a swimming coach triggers predatory sexual urges. What is specific to the church is the fact that many young men were encouraged/pressured into the priesthood at a time when it was often a secure job rather than a vocation. It resulted in a swathe of completely unsuitable people in the church's ranks.

From the point of view of an atheist "suitable to be a priest" is an oxymoron.:D

[Andrew49]

Papal inshiftability?

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/pope.jpg

[Xray]

Yip, it's not as if being a swimming coach triggers predatory sexual urges. What is specific to the church is the fact that many young men were encouraged/pressured into the priesthood at a time when it was often a secure job rather than a vocation. It resulted in a swathe of completely unsuitable people in the church's ranks.

The real scandal is not that they ended up with rapists in their organisation, it was virtually unavoidable when you think about it. The scandal is how they reacted to that cancer.

It reminds me of the failures in hospitals where a surgeon was making errors. That in itself is a normal expected failure. The real failure was that the system did not deal with it. The Church did not deal with this, it actively made it worse. In some cases probably because there was a paedo ring operating in others because it places its own well being above all else.

We will always have men that like having sex with children, it is impossible to spot them until they are caught. Catching them and ignoring it is really disturbing, I can think of no other profession that has done that on such a scale at the clergy. Could you imagine Doctors passing abusing Doctors from hospital to hospital? I can't.

[johnfás]

That is the problem with power and a lack of accountability. You get alot of otherwise quite decent people (talking about the people who turned blind eyes here - not the paedophiles) who act utterly irrationally and that breeds over generations and becomes genuinely quite evil. Of course there are also the generally evil people who proactively cover up and purposely so.

The power structue has to be stripped from the Catholic Church... this is of course happening anyway... but really the younger priests who are not so tarnished should be rebelling. Apart from getting rid of the hierarchy (wishful thinking) they should simply clear out every single member of the hierarchy and replace them with young blood.

[Xray]

Part of the problem is that appointments to positions of power are for life, this means they are old when they get in. A time limited appointment with democratic input earlier in life would be far better.

[johnfás]

It is also self sustaining because of the method of appointment in the Catholic Church. For example - the Pope appoints Cardinals who largely share his theological interpretation. The Pope dies and the Cardinals select a new Pope from among their number. If anything such a set up breeds further entrenchment because a fear of liberalism (or any "other") is likely to result in more conservative allies being appointed as Cardinals.

The Church of Ireland give a decent degree of power to the laity in the election of Bishops and in the Methodist Church we simply don't have an institutional hierarchy at all.

[C. Flower]

In an age of scientific understanding, where there is no evidence whatsoever of a deity of any kind, we could well do without any of these institutions.

[Xray]

In an age of scientific understanding, where there is no evidence whatsoever of a deity of any kind, we could well do without any of these institutions.


Is this an age of scientific understanding? I have my doubts.
There is evidence of a deity just not proof of one.
There will always be religion, we all have our own ways of dealing with the fact that we are going to die etc.
Many people could not and should not do without it if they like it and get comfort from it. But neither should they have to suffer repression to partake in it or be forced to suffer it if they don't believe.

[Xray]

It is also self sustaining because of the method of appointment in the Catholic Church. For example - the Pope appoints Cardinals who largely share his theological interpretation. The Pope dies and the Cardinals select a new Pope from among their number. If anything such a set up breeds further entrenchment because a fear of liberalism (or any "other") is likely to result in more conservative allies being appointed as Cardinals.

The Church of Ireland give a decent degree of power to the laity in the election of Bishops and in the Methodist Church we simply don't have an institutional hierarchy at all.

Do you ever see there being one Irish Church as such?

[5intheface]

From the point of view of an atheist "suitable to be a priest" is an oxymoron.:D

:o:o:o

[johnfás]

Do you ever see there being one Irish Church as such?

I think there is only one body of Christ so in that sense I believe there is only one true church - its a priesthood of all believers. Thankfully in our Church we practice that with an open communion table which is open to everybody and anybody. I am a committed ecumenist, but I don't think true ecumenism is uncritical where one "side" sees faults in the other, to do otherwise would be deceitful. Whilst being an ecumenist and per se being sympathetic towards unity I am not sure that is really what I strive for. I'm pretty liberal and I don't possess a doctrinal fundamentalism which says I am right and you are wrong so whilst I might disagree with others on their interpretation, I think there is room for multiple interpretations of most things so would not force any unity simply for the sake of it. If someone finds solace in my church fantastic, if they find solace in the one down the road which is of a different denomination, fantastic and if we can work together on critical issues, even better.

[Andrew49]

It has been learnt that senior clergy who knew about clerical abusers and did nothing could now be facing prosecution after the appointment of the former heard of the Criminal Assets Bureau to investigate whether offences were committed by failure to report to gardai or to take steps to stop the rape and abuse of children. Assistant Commissioner John O'Mahony has been brought back to Dublin from his position as head of the garda western region based in Galway.

He is heading a hand-picked team of top detectives to examine files released by the Catholic Church and information uncovered in other garda investigations, and to speak to senior clergy who knew about abusers but did nothing about them.

Link (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/more-paid-to-lawyers-than-victims-2114894.html)

[Andrew49]

A parish priest serving in the Diocese of Armagh has been asked to take a period of leave from his ministry due to concerns over child safety. After celebrating vigil mass in a parish in the Archdiocese of Armagh yesterday, Cardinal Sean Brady, who administered oaths of secrecy on at least two of Fr. Brendan Smyth's victims, spoke to the congregation about a decision he has made concerning their parish priest. Cardinal Brady said that in the light of information relating to child safeguarding issues, he has asked the priest to take a period of leave, which he has agreed to do.

Source (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0328/breaking26.html)

... and Pope says he won't be "intimidated by the petty gossip of dominant opinion" over the child abuse scandal ! Basically he won't do what EVERYONE is telling him to do .... to go!

http://bit.ly/cB1BMd

[Cáthasaigh]

News reports mention an undisclosed location but I can confirm that the parish is Aghaloo in Aughnacloy, Co Tyrone and the priest is named McAvoy. A letter from Brady was read out at mass today to a shocked congregation. There has been no mention of sex abuse however, merely 'child safety'; whatever that means.

[5intheface]

News reports mention an undisclosed location but I can confirm that the parish is Aghaloo in Aughnacloy, Co Tyrone and the priest is named McAvoy. A letter from Brady was read out at mass today to a shocked congregation. There has been no mention of sex abuse however, merely 'child safety'; whatever that means.

A scoop young Cáthasaigh.

[Lapsedmethodist]

Anyone see Father Trendy on the Late Show ? He implied - well,more than implied - that ***** were taking the piss out of "decent' catholics in the North. True ? False ?

[5intheface]

Anyone see Father Trendy on the Late Show ? He implied - well,more than implied - that ***** were taking the piss out of "decent' catholics in the North. True ? False ?

I'm surprised at the lack of it to be honest and frankly I wouldn't blame them if they were.

[Cáthasaigh]

A scoop young Cáthasaigh.

There's still mass-goers in the family, I wouldn't think for much longer though.

[Lapsedmethodist]

I'm surprised at the lack of it to be honest and frankly I wouldn't blame them if they were.

Well, well !! I remember Crowley over on P.ie yelling " kilfenora " at *****, so I thought that abuse would be cross community, like.

[C. Flower]

I think there is only one body of Christ so in that sense I believe there is only one true church - its a priesthood of all believers. Thankfully in our Church we practice that with an open communion table which is open to everybody and anybody. I am a committed ecumenist, but I don't think true ecumenism is uncritical where one "side" sees faults in the other, to do otherwise would be deceitful. Whilst being an ecumenist and per se being sympathetic towards unity I am not sure that is really what I strive for. I'm pretty liberal and I don't possess a doctrinal fundamentalism which says I am right and you are wrong so whilst I might disagree with others on their interpretation, I think there is room for multiple interpretations of most things so would not force any unity simply for the sake of it. If someone finds solace in my church fantastic, if they find solace in the one down the road which is of a different denomination, fantastic and if we can work together on critical issues, even better.

There is also room for thinking that religion is a part of society, and an invention of man, without any supernatural content.

All this is a bit off topic johfás, perhaps you would start a thread on ecumenism / belief ?

[Cáthasaigh]

Well, well !! I remember Crowley over on P.ie yelling " kilfenora " at *****, so I thought that abuse would be cross community, like.

Child sex abuse is an ecumenical abhorration where churchs, politicians and states have colluded with and facilitated abusers throughout the island of Ireland.

[5intheface]

Well, well !! I remember Crowley over on P.ie yelling " kilfenora " at *****, so I thought that abuse would be cross community, like.

People in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones at Orangehouses :D

[Andrew49]

Anyone see Father Trendy on the Late Show ? He implied - well,more than implied - that ***** were taking the piss out of "decent' catholics in the North. True ? False ?

'Sing a song of sorrows

A generation marred;

Four and twenty Bishops summoned out to Rome

When the summit ended

The Bishops all did sing

Their sordid deeds well covered, they kissed the Pontiff's ring.'

Source - Author (http://bit.ly/9clcu7)

[C. Flower]

I am wondering if anything has been reported to the Police.

[Andrew49]

I am wondering if anything has been reported to the Police.

I think it has.

Cardinal Brady said that in the light of information relating to child safeguarding issues, he has asked the priest to take a period of leave, which he has agreed to do. He said:
“This is to allow the civil authorities, who have been informed, to investigate this matter”

[Xray]

I think there is only one body of Christ so in that sense I believe there is only one true church - its a priesthood of all believers. Thankfully in our Church we practice that with an open communion table which is open to everybody and anybody. I am a committed ecumenist, but I don't think true ecumenism is uncritical where one "side" sees faults in the other, to do otherwise would be deceitful. Whilst being an ecumenist and per se being sympathetic towards unity I am not sure that is really what I strive for. I'm pretty liberal and I don't possess a doctrinal fundamentalism which says I am right and you are wrong so whilst I might disagree with others on their interpretation, I think there is room for multiple interpretations of most things so would not force any unity simply for the sake of it. If someone finds solace in my church fantastic, if they find solace in the one down the road which is of a different denomination, fantastic and if we can work together on critical issues, even better.

Mores the pity there are not more like you if you ask me.

[Lapsedmethodist]

'Sing a song of sorrows

A generation marred;

Four and twenty Bishops summoned out to Rome

When the summit ended

The Bishops all did sing

Their sordid deeds well covered, they kissed the Pontiff's ring.'

Source - Author (http://bit.ly/9clcu7)

My heads spinning from all those metaphors !!

[Lapsedmethodist]

People in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones at Orangehouses :D

Or VICE versa! (vice! geddit :D)

[Dagger John]

Ratzinger played a leading role (some say THE leading role) in a systematic cover-up of child sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests. In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of the protection of children. The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated. An oath of secrecy was forced on the victims. Ratzinger set in train the harbouring paedophile clergymen within the Church. Priests who abused children were simply moved to another parish, diocese or even other countries often to reoffend. Hush funds and threats of excommunication were used to silence victims and their families.

Before being elected as Pope Benedict XVI, Ratzinger was the head of the powerful Congregation of the Doctrine of The Faith, the department of the Roman Catholic Church charged with promoting Catholic teachings on morals and matters of faith. An arch-Conservative, he was regarded as the 'enforcer' of Pope John Paul II in cracking down on liberal challenges to traditional Catholic teachings. In 2001 he sent out an updated version of the notorious 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis - Latin for The Crime of Solicitation - which laid down the Vatican's strict instructions on covering up sexual scandal - paedophilia and bestiality. It was regarded as so secret that it came with instructions that bishops had to keep it locked in a safe at all times. Ratzinger reinforced the strict cover-up policy by introducing a new principle: that the Vatican must have what it calls Exclusive Competence. In other words, he commanded that all child abuse allegations should be dealt with direct by Rome.

Father Tom Doyle, a Vatican lawyer until he was sacked for criticising the church's handling of child abuse claims, says:

What edict was this?

[C. Flower]

What edict was this?

This is what the wiki says

Response to sex abuse scandal
As Cardinal Ratzinger was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), the sexual abuse of minors by priests was his responsibility to investigate from 2001, when that charge was given to the CDF by Pope John Paul II.[3] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-2)
As part of the implementation of the norms enacted and promulgated on April 30, 2001 by Pope John Paul II,[4] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-3) on May 18, 2001 Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the Catholic Church.[5] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-4) [6] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-5) This letter reminded them of the strict penalties facing those who revealed confidential details concerning enquiries into allegations against priests of certain grave ecclesiastical crimes, including sexual abuse (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse), which were reserved to the jurisdiction of the Congregation. The letter extended the prescription or statute of limitations (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations) for these crimes to ten years. However, when the crime is sexual abuse of a minor, the "prescription begins to run from the day on that which the minor completes the eighteenth year of age."[7] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-6) Lawyers acting for two alleged victims of abuse in Texas claim that by sending the letter the cardinal conspired to obstruct justice.[8] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-7) The letter did not, in fact, discourage victims from reporting the abuse itself to the police; the secrecy related rather to the internal investigation of the alleged crime, forbidding all parties to divulge what took place during the Church trial.[citation needed (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] The Catholic News Service reported that "the letter said the new norms reflected the CDF's traditional "exclusive competence" regarding delicta graviora—Latin for "graver offenses". According to Canon Law (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Canon_law_(Catholic_Church)) experts in Rome, reserving cases of clerical sexual abuse of minors to the CDF is something new. In past eras, some serious crimes by priests against sexual morality, including pedophilia (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Pedophilia), were handled by that congregation or its predecessor, the Holy Office, but this has not been true in recent years."[9] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-signs-8) The promulgation of the norms by Pope John Paul II and the subsequent letter by the then Prefect of the CDF were published in 2001 in Acta Apostolicae Sedis[10] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-9) which is the Holy See (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Holy_See)'s official journal, in accordance with the Code of Canon Law (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Canon_law),[11] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-10) and is disseminated monthly to thousands of libraries and offices around the world.[12] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-11)
In 2002, Ratzinger told the Catholic News Service (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Catholic_News_Service) that "less than one percent of priests are guilty of acts of this type."[13] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-12) Opponents saw this as ignoring the crimes of those who committed the abuse; others saw it as merely pointing out that this should not taint other priests who live respectable lives.[9] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-signs-8)[14] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-13) Shortly after his election,[vague (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style)] he told Francis Cardinal George (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Francis_Cardinal_George), the Archbishop of Chicago (http://www.politicalworld.org/wiki/Archbishop_of_Chicago), that he would attend to the matter.[9] (http://www.politicalworld.org/#cite_note-signs-8)

[C. Flower]

It is a little disingenuous to say that the letter "did not discourage victims to report abuse to the police".
The letter was not addressed to victims.

[Dagger John]

It also seems strange to say the the "edict" was secret when according to that extraxt from Wiki it was published in an official journal.

[Dagger John]

I looked it up and found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_delictis_gravioribus

it seems clear that the Vatican was wanting to know what was done and to whom from the point of view of administration internally. Seems that there is a lot of hype here and it is not even accurate hype?

[C. Flower]

It also seems strange to say the the "edict" was secret when according to that extraxt from Wiki it was published in an official journal.

I'm not clear that it was published. The wiki says

The promulgation of the norms by Pope John Paul II and the subsequent letter by the then Prefect of the CDF were published in 2001 in Acta Apostolicae Sedis

If the letter was published, perhaps "not widely circulated" would apply better.

Certainly, the whole effect of this management approach was to centralise it and keep things "under wraps."

[Dagger John]

again took another quick hunt in Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acta_Apostolicae_Sedis

seems to "officially" publish letters and such. Not widely consulted may be better!

[Dagger John]

To be honest I think what has happened is a bunch of guys decided that they knew better than everyone else and done and decided that they knew better than the canon law and interpreted it to suit themselves - and they should pay the price for that

[Dagger John]

The Oath Of Secrecy (below) ties the papacy and the Vatican State in the worldwide cover-up of CLERGY SEXUAL TERRORISM

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/TheOathOfSecrecy.jpg

This is the sin of false obedience

[C. Flower]

To be honest I think what has happened is a bunch of guys decided that they knew better than everyone else and done and decided that they knew better than the canon law and interpreted it to suit themselves - and they should pay the price for that

So what does Canon law say should be done when there is suspected abuse of children by clergy ?

[Dagger John]

Just looked that up - and guess what - not the full story

I promise sacredly, vow and swear, to observe inviolably the secret in all matters and details which will take place in exercising the aforesaid duty, excepting precisely those matters at the end and at the completion of this negotiation [or of these negotiations] which can be legitimately published.
Further, I shall observe this secret absolutely and in every way with all who have no legitimate part in the treatment of this same matter [or, who are not constricted by the same sworn bond]; nor [will I ever], directly or indirectly, by means of a nod, or of a word, by writing, or in any other way and under whatever type of pretext, even for the most urgent and most serious cause [even] for the purpose of a greater good, commit anything against this fidelity to the secret, unless a particular faculty or dispensation has been expressly given to me by the Supreme Pontiff.

That seems clear enough to me, the Church is off the hook there excepting for the fact that the Bishops did not do what it allowed them to do.

[Dagger John]

So what does Canon law say should be done when there is suspected abuse of children by clergy ?

googled and found this

Church law on the matter can be found in Canon Law. Canon 2359, paragraph 2 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, states:

"If they (clerics) have committed an offense against the sixth commandment with minors under sixteen years of age, or been guilty of adultery, rape, bestiality, sodomy, traffic in vice, or incest with blood-relatives or relations by marriage in the first degree, they shall be suspended, declared infamous, deprived of every office, benefice, dignity, or position that they may hold, and in more grievous cases they shall be deposed."

The 1983 Code of Canon Law, Canon 1395, paragraph 2 states:

"A cleric who has offended in other ways against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue, if the crime was committed by force, or by threats, or in public, or with a minor under the age of sixteen years, is to be punished with just penalties, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state if the case so warrants."

[Andrew49]

What edict was this?

Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela - Latin Text (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_20020110_sacramentorum-sanctitatis-tutela_lt.html)


Having carefully considered opinions and having made the appropriate consultations, the work of the commission finally was completed. The fathers of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith examined the commission's work carefully and submitted to the supreme pontiff conclusions on the determination of more grave delicts and the manner of proceeding to declare or impose sanctions, with the exclusive competence in this of the apostolic tribunal of this congregation remaining firm. All these things, approved by the supreme pontiff himself, were confirmed and promulgated by the apostolic letter given motu proprio beginning with the words Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela.


English Text (http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/churchdocs/EpistulaEnglish.htm)

Benedict is under fire for the 2001 church directive [above] he wrote while a Vatican cardinal, instructing bishops to keep abuse cases confidential. Germany's justice minister has blamed the directive for what she called a "wall of silence" preventing prosecution.

[Andrew49]

googled and found this

Church law on the matter can be found in Canon Law. Canon 2359, paragraph 2 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, states:

"If they (clerics) have committed an offense against the sixth commandment with minors under sixteen years of age, or been guilty of adultery, rape, bestiality, sodomy, traffic in vice, or incest with blood-relatives or relations by marriage in the first degree, they shall be suspended, declared infamous, deprived of every office, benefice, dignity, or position that they may hold, and in more grievous cases they shall be deposed."

The 1983 Code of Canon Law, Canon 1395, paragraph 2 states:

"A cleric who has offended in other ways against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue, if the crime was committed by force, or by threats, or in public, or with a minor under the age of sixteen years, is to be punished with just penalties, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state if the case so warrants."

Sixth commandment ... that's the Adultery one?!?

Certainly explains Ratzinger's indirect response to the Ryan Report:

The Pope has deplored acts of infidelity by priests and has called for “a frank and complete acknowledgment” of the Catholic Church’s weakness. In what was interpreted as an indirect response to the Ryan report, as well as to clerical sex abuse generally, he said that there had been
“situations which can never be sufficiently deplored where the church herself suffers as a consequence of infidelity on the part of some of her ministers. Then it is the world which finds grounds for scandal and rejection. What is most helpful to the church in such cases is not only a frank and complete acknowledgment of the weaknesses of her ministers, but also a joyful and renewed realisation of the greatness of God’s gift,”

In the past, the pope has apologised to victims for their anguish and prayed for their healing while denouncing what he has termed the “filth” in the priesthood that permitted such abuse.

Cardinal Seán Brady and the Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin spent much of the week, after publication of the Ryan Report, discussing it with seven of the nine cardinal heads of Vatican congregations. On Friday June 5th, they met the pope for a 45-minute audience at which the report was discussed.

“He listened very carefully, he was obviously very distressed about what we had to tell him . . . he listened very sympathetically and attentively,” said Cardinal Brady.

“He didn’t read the entire thing, but he was aware of it and very distressed by it,” said Archbishop Martin, after the audience.

[Stendec]

Papal inshiftability?

:D

if he had that big gold sheperds crook of his shoved up his hole itd shift him fairly quick!!

[Stendec]

Cardinal Seán Brady and the Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin spent much of the week, after publication of the Ryan Report, discussing it with seven of the nine cardinal heads of Vatican congregations. On Friday June 5th, they met the pope for a 45-minute audience at which the report was discussed.

“He listened very carefully, he was obviously very distressed about what we had to tell him . . . he listened very sympathetically and attentively,” said Cardinal Brady.

“He didn’t read the entire thing, but he was aware of it and very distressed by it,” said Archbishop Martin, after the audience.

did you see in the papers there that the brady bunch paid more for lawyers than the compensation to there victims?? isnt that a disgrace!!

[Andrew49]

did you see in the papers there that the brady bunch paid more for lawyers than the compensation to there victims?? isnt that a disgrace!!

I think it's time churchgoers put ACTUAL peanuts in the collection plate on Sundays!

Brady resorts to legal action because he thinks he has an unlimited and bottomless barrel .... why a prelate could dip into something without a bottom is a bit beyond me ..... It's time those at the top were brought into reality.


http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/containsnuts.jpg

[Stendec]

[B]I think it's time churchgoers put ACTUAL peanuts in the collection plate on Sundays!

thats a pure briliant idea!! if there was rep here id rep you for it.

[Andrew49]

thats a pure briliant idea!! if there was rep here id rep you for it.

Ahem, Thanks. But I was re-reading another thread [from June 2009] in another place (http://www.politics.ie/chat/71725-questions-answers-25-05-a-14.html#post1697314) and booted up Photoshop .... ;)

[Stendec]

Ahem, Thanks. But I was re-reading another thread [from June 2009] in another place (http://www.politics.ie/chat/71725-questions-answers-25-05-a-14.html#post1697314) and booted up Photoshop .... ;)

no matter its still a good idea!!

[Dagger John]

Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela - Latin Text (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_20020110_sacramentorum-sanctitatis-tutela_lt.html)


English Text (http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/churchdocs/EpistulaEnglish.htm)

Benedict is under fire for the 2001 church directive [above] he wrote while a Vatican cardinal, instructing bishops to keep abuse cases confidential. Germany's justice minister has blamed the directive for what she called a "wall of silence" preventing prosecution.

It is plainly obvious to anyone that the Vatican was wanting to know the findings of the case - that is perfectly acceptable and indeed proper. To do otherwise would be grossly negligent.

It is the attempt to try and spin these directives to mean something else which will allow the guilty to escape justice.

[Dagger John]

Sixth commandment ... that's the Adultery one?!?

Certainly explains Ratzinger's indirect response to the Ryan Report:

The Pope has deplored acts of infidelity by priests and has called for “a frank and complete acknowledgment” of the Catholic Church’s weakness. In what was interpreted as an indirect response to the Ryan report, as well as to clerical sex abuse generally, he said that there had been

In the past, the pope has apologised to victims for their anguish and prayed for their healing while denouncing what he has termed the “filth” in the priesthood that permitted such abuse.

Cardinal Seán Brady and the Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin spent much of the week, after publication of the Ryan Report, discussing it with seven of the nine cardinal heads of Vatican congregations. On Friday June 5th, they met the pope for a 45-minute audience at which the report was discussed.

“He listened very carefully, he was obviously very distressed about what we had to tell him . . . he listened very sympathetically and attentively,” said Cardinal Brady.

“He didn’t read the entire thing, but he was aware of it and very distressed by it,” said Archbishop Martin, after the audience.


Of course it is adultery - what else could it be? the fact that the deed was done with a minor makes the adulterers action worse.

[Andrew49]

Of course it is adultery - what else could it be? the fact that the deed was done with a minor makes the adulterers action worse.

I don't think the rape of a child by an adult can be equated with an extra-marital affair!

adultery: affair, carrying on, cheating, extracurricular activity, fling, fornication, hanky-panky, immorality, infidelity, matinee, playing around, relationship, thing*, two-timing

infidelity: adultery, affair, bad faith, betrayal, cheating, duplicity, extramarital relations, faithlessness, falseness, falsity, inconstancy, lewdness, perfidiousness, perfidy, treacherousness, treachery, treason, two-timing, unfaithfulness

[C. Flower]

I don't think the rape of a child by an adult can be equated with an extra-marital affair!

adultery: affair, carrying on, cheating, extracurricular activity, fling, fornication, hanky-panky, immorality, infidelity, matinee, playing around, relationship, thing*, two-timing

infidelity: adultery, affair, bad faith, betrayal, cheating, duplicity, extramarital relations, faithlessness, falseness, falsity, inconstancy, lewdness, perfidiousness, perfidy, treacherousness, treachery, treason, two-timing, unfaithfulness

I wonder is this a translation problem and what the term used was.

Was it a case of euphemism, or was it that the issue to the Church was not what was done to the child, but the priest's lapse from celibacy ?

[Andrew49]

I wonder is this a translation problem and what the term used was.

Was it a case of euphemism, or was it that the issue to the Church was not what was done to the child, but the priest's lapse from celibacy ?

It just might be the translation, but I don't think so - the Rosminians (Ferryhouse & Upton) sent reports twice a year to their headquarters in the Vatican and these reports were written in Latin and Italian. I think Latin was employed with Italian when describing paedophilia.

From the transcripts of the Child Abuse Commission

Q. What sort of words were used?
A. "Indiscreet" was a word was that was used, that a member of the community was indiscreet with boys. I think Latin was used a good bit, you know, that a member of the community had sinned against the Sixth Commandment contra -- my Latin isn't very good, I am afraid. But in correspondence, I have seen Latin phrases used.

60 Q. MR. McMAHON: In 1956, if it may assist you, the phrase "indiscreet com peuris and is a periculum to them"; what does that mean?

A. It means he was indiscreet. "Com pueris" is with boys and "periculum" means he is a danger to them -- periculum is danger.

Transcript PDF - above quote is on Page 29 (http://www.childabusecommission.ie/public_hearings/documents/04/Transcript-8Sep2004.PDF)

[Dagger John]

I don't think the rape of a child by an adult can be equated with an extra-marital affair!

adultery: affair, carrying on, cheating, extracurricular activity, fling, fornication, hanky-panky, immorality, infidelity, matinee, playing around, relationship, thing*, two-timing

infidelity: adultery, affair, bad faith, betrayal, cheating, duplicity, extramarital relations, faithlessness, falseness, falsity, inconstancy, lewdness, perfidiousness, perfidy, treacherousness, treachery, treason, two-timing, unfaithfulness

Neither does anyone else Andrew.

[Andrew49]

Neither does anyone else Andrew.

Ratzinger still does .. Pope deplores acts of infidelity by priests (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0619/1224249121697.html) ... the Rosminians at one time.

Indeed the media exposure of Ratzinger, in the worldwide cover-up of abuse by clergy, is now being compared to the torment Jesus suffered!


The pope is being crucified over untrue allegations that he condoned the acts of pedophile priests, Archbishop Timothy Dolan told worshippers in St. Patrick's Cathedral yesterday. The charges being hurled at Pope Benedict XVI are the "the same unjust accusations, shouts of the mob and scourging at the pillar" suffered by Christ, Dolan said in his first Palm Sunday Mass as New York archbishop.

Archbishop Dolan compares pope abuse flap to torment of Jesus (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/dolan_frond_of_pope_FFmA6TjljKO6ntnfN1UsxM)

[Dagger John]

Are we talking about the same thing Andrew? I was saying that no one would equate a marital affair as being as serious as child rape.

[Dagger John]

just looked at that speech of Dolan, seems a fair enough analogy of the pain Benedict is suffering from, if you accept his denials, to the torture. Obviously a rhetorical device which is applicable in that situation.

[Andrew49]

Are we talking about the same thing Andrew? I was saying that no one would equate a marital affair as being as serious as child rape.

From the documents and pronunciations of the pope, clergy and religious orders they are equating child abuse as a matter of infidelity/adultery.

I think Dolan's intervention in support of Ratzinger is part of the 'support' network that Ratzinger has in place. Canada's top prelate cardinal Archbishop Marc Ouellet denounced allegations Pope Benedict XVI covered up cases of sexual abuse by priests in a press conference on Friday - Quellet was in full flow in defence of Ratzinger until one reporter asked him about his own brother - who pled guilty to abusing 2 children last year. Of course Quellet didn't acknowledge that his brother had abused children. He said his brother had 'some difficulty with the law last year' !!! And today in Austria - which is having it's own 'painful happenings' - Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn pointed the finger at Pope John Paul II, claiming he had blocked Ratzinger when he tried to establish a Church investigation into abuse allegations against a previous Archbishop of Vienna, Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer.

I don't think Dolan or Ratzinger have any idea what torment is.

[Dagger John]

From the documents and pronunciations of the pope, clergy and religious orders they are equating child abuse as a matter of infidelity/adultery.

I think Dolan's intervention in support of Ratzinger is part of the 'support' network that Ratzinger has in place. Canada's top prelate cardinal Archbishop Marc Ouellet denounced allegations Pope Benedict XVI covered up cases of sexual abuse by priests in a press conference on Friday - Quellet was in full flow in defence of Ratzinger until one reporter asked him about his own brother - who pled guilty to abusing 2 children last year. Of course Quellet didn't acknowledge that his brother had abused children. He said his brother had 'some difficulty with the law last year' !!! And today in Austria - which is having it's own 'painful happenings' - Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn pointed the finger at Pope John Paul II, claiming he had blocked Ratzinger when he tried to establish a Church investigation into abuse allegations against a previous Archbishop of Vienna, Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer.

I don't think Dolan or Ratzinger have any idea what torment is.

It is obvious that your interpretation of adultery is different from theirs. The define adultery as sex outside marriage. Which encompasses many proclivities. So they are correct in their definitions and they are nor equating it. This is obvious from the various letters et cetera were it is called the "crimen pessimum" the foulest crime. That is hardly equating it Andrew. I think you must be getting your information from headlines and you have not read any of the documents or you could not possibly be making these inaccurate postings.

You obviously do not think that someone should be allowed to support the pope if he feels that the Pope is being unfairly accused, that is a strange position, the archbishop is perfectly entitled to irrespective of whatever his brother did.

As for John Paul blocking an investigation. The person involved in that scandal, Groer, was not prosecuted by the Austrians due to their Statute of Limitations. Benedict was not happy with that and wanted the Church to investigate further, the Curia argued against - led by Soldano as it would no longer serve any purpose as he had been exposed.

In this case I agree with the following

"Der heutige Papst habe sich in der Causa Groer (1995) energisch für eine vatikanische Untersuchungskommission eingesetzt. Diese sei aber von der “anderen Partei” im Vatikan verhindert worden, berichtete Schönborn: “Ratzinger hat mir damals traurig gesagt: Die andere Partei hat sich durchgesetzt.”
Bei den Kommissions-Gegner habe es sich 1995 um die - im Staatssekretariat angesiedelte - “diplomatische Schiene” gehandelt.
Ratzinger sei auch der Verantwortliche für die Errichtung des “Gerichtshofs” in der Glaubenskongregation zur Behandlung der “delicta graviora” gewesen: “Ihm vorzuwerfen, er sei ein Vertuscher, ist deshalb nicht wahr.”"

I believe that they do know and have acknowledged what torment is and have acknowledged it.

[mascara]

News reports mention an undisclosed location but I can confirm that the parish is Aghaloo in Aughnacloy, Co Tyrone and the priest is named McAvoy. A letter from Brady was read out at mass today to a shocked congregation. There has been no mention of sex abuse however, merely 'child safety'; whatever that means.


Does anyone know what is specifically meant by 'child safety' If a priest has carried out a meaningful religeous ceremony and later turns out to be a child abuser, how do you reconcile this in your mind?

[C. Flower]

Are we talking about the same thing Andrew? I was saying that no one would equate a marital affair as being as serious as child rape.

How do you interpret the very odd terminology used by the Vatican ?

[5intheface]

Does anyone know what is specifically meant by 'child safety' If a priest has carried out a meaningful religeous ceremony and later turns out to be a child abuser, how do you reconcile this in your mind?

It's mad terminology all right but I'm guessing the investigation isn't about him driving children around without their seatbelts on. Of course whatever it is, I must say he may be entirely innocent.

[C. Flower]

just looked at that speech of Dolan, seems a fair enough analogy of the pain Benedict is suffering from, if you accept his denials, to the torture. Obviously a rhetorical device which is applicable in that situation.

I looked at it too. Personally, I found the analogy torturous and the reading of it, torture.

Rhetorical devices are the refuge of scoundrels.

[Dagger John]

I looked at it too. Personally, I found the analogy torturous and the reading of it, torture.

Rhetorical devices are the refuge of scoundrels.

You are crucifying me there

[Andrew49]

It is obvious that your interpretation of adultery is different from theirs. The define adultery as sex outside marriage. Which encompasses many proclivities. So they are correct in their definitions and they are nor equating it. This is obvious from the various letters et cetera were it is called the "crimen pessimum" the foulest crime. That is hardly equating it Andrew. I think you must be getting your information from headlines and you have not read any of the documents or you could not possibly be making these inaccurate postings.

You obviously do not think that someone should be allowed to support the pope if he feels that the Pope is being unfairly accused, that is a strange position, the archbishop is perfectly entitled to irrespective of whatever his brother did.

As for John Paul blocking an investigation. The person involved in that scandal, Groer, was not prosecuted by the Austrians due to their Statute of Limitations. Benedict was not happy with that and wanted the Church to investigate further, the Curia argued against - led by Soldano as it would no longer serve any purpose as he had been exposed.

In this case I agree with the following

"Der heutige Papst habe sich in der Causa Groer (1995) energisch für eine vatikanische Untersuchungskommission eingesetzt. Diese sei aber von der “anderen Partei” im Vatikan verhindert worden, berichtete Schönborn: “Ratzinger hat mir damals traurig gesagt: Die andere Partei hat sich durchgesetzt.”
Bei den Kommissions-Gegner habe es sich 1995 um die - im Staatssekretariat angesiedelte - “diplomatische Schiene” gehandelt.
Ratzinger sei auch der Verantwortliche für die Errichtung des “Gerichtshofs” in der Glaubenskongregation zur Behandlung der “delicta graviora” gewesen: “Ihm vorzuwerfen, er sei ein Vertuscher, ist deshalb nicht wahr.”"

I believe that they do know and have acknowledged what torment is and have acknowledged it.

Adultery is something that goes on between consenting adults. What former Archbishop of Bulawayo Pius Ncube was involved in could be classified as 'sexual misconduct' or even adultery but it was a sexual relationship between consenting adults. What went on in Ferryhouse did not have the consent of both parties - the Rosminian and the child. The Rosminians did not expel members for sexual abuse (offending against the sixth commandment) and, although aware of the criminal nature of the conduct, did not report it as a crime. Instead, abusers were transferred to other institutions to continue 'offending against the sixth commandment'.

As to knowing what torment is:
The Ryan Report notes the “secretive way” in which abusers could be removed to other institutions, and the “vague and coded language” in which sexual abuse was discussed. One Brother with a history of sexual abuse was transferred to a school for blind children, a decision the commission found “reckless and inexplicable”.
“Sexual abuse was dealt with in a manner that put the interests of the order, the institution and even the abuser ahead of the protection of the child.”Sexual Abuse was a “chronic problem” at Ferryhouse industrial school. It was systemic. When it was uncovered, it was not seen as a crime but as a moral lapse and weakness, the report said.
“The policy of furtively removing the abuser and keeping his offences secret led to a culture of institutional amnesia, in which neither victims nor staff could learn from the experience."

When the Rosminian authorities initially discovered that some members of their order had been abusing children (offending against the sixth commandment) , their response was “wholly inadequate”. The order sought to cover it up by transferring the perpetrators, and the impact of the abuse on the boys was not a consideration. The Department of Education “did not act responsibly” when an allegation of sexual abuse was made to it. Instead, it distanced itself from the allegations, “seeking to minimise the publicity and scandal which might arise”.

--

I have absolutely no problem with the very ambitious Dolan expressing support for Ratzinger - the more people of Dolan's ilk volunteering to dig alongside Ratzinger the better. I hope Dolan expresses to Ratzinger how he personally feels about the abuse crisis in the Church.


'I've learned some very hard-won lessons. One of them would be that it is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation, and the suffering that victims feel, because I've spent the last four months being with them, crying with them, having them express their anger to me.'

- - -

You presume much that I get my information from headlines.

Andrew (ex-Ferryhouse, ex-Omeath) to name a couple.

[C. Flower]

No Garda investigation into Brady at present - Gardai are "reviewing their procedures"

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/brady-not-subject-of-garda-probe-452056.html

[Andrew49]

No Garda investigation into Brady at present - Gardai are "reviewing their procedures"

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/brady-not-subject-of-garda-probe-452056.html

Can't see them even bringing him in for questioning. Wonder why the Garda Commissioner would feel the need to state it?

[C. Flower]

Can't see them even bringing him in for questioning. Wonder why the Garda Commissioner would feel the need to state it?

The question was raised on Politicalworld.org ?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I remain very suspicious about the way that state agencies are dealing with the catholic church.

There still seems to be so much tiptoing around the church by the state. I get the feeling that if some Joe off the street failed to report repeated sexual abuse he'd be facing charges fairly quickly. The legal system in Ireland and the Gardai seem to go out of their way to pick at the idea of treating a priest the same as any Joe under the law.

Still conscious of the fact that despite the odd bleat at cooperation with the authorities this organisation is still holding files on known child abusers who are still alive in various retirement homes etc and haven't turned them over to the Gardai as far as I am aware.

There simply have been too few arrests. Add to that the current deal over payments to survivors still seems to have that dazed look about it of 'lets pretend that the state was primarily responsible' when in fact that was not the case and takes no account of the silent veto the church had over social policy for many decades and the hold it had on Depts of Education and Justice.

I'll be convinced when I see the Gardai seizing files or arresting clergymen.

[Andrew49]

I remain very suspicious about the way that state agencies are dealing with the catholic church.

There still seems to be so much tiptoing around the church by the state. I get the feeling that if some Joe off the street failed to report repeated sexual abuse he'd be facing charges fairly quickly. The legal system in Ireland and the Gardai seem to go out of their way to pick at the idea of treating a priest the same as any Joe under the law.

Still conscious of the fact that despite the odd bleat at cooperation with the authorities this organisation is still holding files on known child abusers who are still alive in various retirement homes etc and haven't turned them over to the Gardai as far as I am aware.

There simply have been too few arrests. Add to that the current deal over payments to survivors still seems to have that dazed look about it of 'lets pretend that the state was primarily responsible' when in fact that was not the case and takes no account of the silent veto the church had over social policy for many decades and the hold it had on Depts of Education and Justice.

I'll be convinced when I see the Gardai seizing files or arresting clergymen.

Brilliant post.

Institutional Abuse survivors are offered 'redress' on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
Compare & Contrast
One child who visited an Industrial School in Kilkenny in the early 70s was abused on that one day visit. The abuse was admitted and the courts found for him and he was offered €75,000 as compensation.

A girl in the same Institution* - and there since she was three years old and not released until she was a day shy of her 16th. birthday, was abused by the same person who abused the boy. She also suffered physical and psychological abuse. The abuse was admitted. Her testimony was not challenged. She has low educational qualifications, was in a menial jobs - the only kind of jobs she ever had - and she was offered €55,000 on a take it or leave it!

*Slight details have been altered as applicants to the Redress Board are gagged from talking in public. Breaking these gagging orders may be the only weapon survivors have left in order to achieve some measure of dignity.

Silenced (http://www.paddydoyle.com/silenced/)

[C. Flower]

It is obvious that your interpretation of adultery is different from theirs. The define adultery as sex outside marriage. Which encompasses many proclivities. So they are correct in their definitions and they are nor equating it. This is obvious from the various letters et cetera were it is called the "crimen pessimum" the foulest crime. That is hardly equating it Andrew. I think you must be getting your information from headlines and you have not read any of the documents or you could not possibly be making these inaccurate postings.

You obviously do not think that someone should be allowed to support the pope if he feels that the Pope is being unfairly accused, that is a strange position, the archbishop is perfectly entitled to irrespective of whatever his brother did.

As for John Paul blocking an investigation. The person involved in that scandal, Groer, was not prosecuted by the Austrians due to their Statute of Limitations. Benedict was not happy with that and wanted the Church to investigate further, the Curia argued against - led by Soldano as it would no longer serve any purpose as he had been exposed.

In this case I agree with the following

"Der heutige Papst habe sich in der Causa Groer (1995) energisch für eine vatikanische Untersuchungskommission eingesetzt. Diese sei aber von der “anderen Partei” im Vatikan verhindert worden, berichtete Schönborn: “Ratzinger hat mir damals traurig gesagt: Die andere Partei hat sich durchgesetzt.”
Bei den Kommissions-Gegner habe es sich 1995 um die - im Staatssekretariat angesiedelte - “diplomatische Schiene” gehandelt.
Ratzinger sei auch der Verantwortliche für die Errichtung des “Gerichtshofs” in der Glaubenskongregation zur Behandlung der “delicta graviora” gewesen: “Ihm vorzuwerfen, er sei ein Vertuscher, ist deshalb nicht wahr.”"

I believe that they do know and have acknowledged what torment is and have acknowledged it.

It seems to be their own torment that we have heard most about.

[C. Flower]

Brilliant post.

Institutional Abuse survivors are offered 'redress' on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
Compare & Contrast
One child who visited an Industrial School in Kilkenny in the early 70s was abused on that one day visit. The abuse was admitted and the courts found for him and he was offered €75,000 as compensation.

A girl in the same Institution* - and there since she was three years old and not released until she was a day shy of her 16th. birthday, was abused by the same person who abused the boy. She also suffered physical and psychological abuse. The abuse was admitted. Her testimony was not challenged. She has low educational qualifications, was in a menial jobs - the only kind of jobs she ever had - and she was offered €55,000 on a take it or leave it!

*Slight details have been altered as applicants to the Redress Board are gagged from talking in public. Breaking these gagging orders may be the only weapon survivors have left in order to achieve some measure of dignity.

Silenced (http://www.paddydoyle.com/silenced/)

How would you say the Redress Board compares with the Church Courts ?

[Andrew49]

How would you say the Redress Board compares with the Church Courts ?

From talking to survivors the Redress Board heaps further hurt on them and it has that SHHH! Don't Tell element which is destructive I think. The Church Courts ARE definitely piling obscenity upon obscenity .... being question by a priest about being raped by a priest! Doesn't bear thinking about! Horrible. I know of 8 people who went through these courts and all of them commented on that fact. It actually made them freeze up even though one or both parents were there.

I was treated OK at the Redress Board - I had a good brief, am educated, well briefed too, my team were on the ball so to speak; I had done most of the legwork though, I had a well-researched and documented case with files garnered since 1982 - some files acquired by 'unorthodox' methods. Basically I had incontrovertible proof. It helped that one Religious Order came out with their hands up when my case was presented. Michael O'Brien (Questions & Answers) had a completely different experience with the same Order.

My questioning at the Investigation Strand was similar (in a way) to Michael's in that it was a room full of barristers and 3 judges ..... questions were thrown at me, I was challenged quite severely ...... not by the religious order who kept quiet throughout the one and a half hours I was on the stand .... but by the judges. One judge actually asked was I a 'particularly bold child' !! The reason the judges got 'stuck-in' to me was because the Religious Order (nuns) refused to question me on 13 specific instances of abuse - and a couple of these abuses were/are quite horrendous.

But I came out of the questioning in good form - had a private meeting with the head of the Order who personally apologised to me for the abuses - which she accepted happened to me - I suffered. Strange really as it took until after the publication of the Ryan Report for this order to make their first apology to a particular set of survivors ..... that said a few months ago 2 of the nuns (one well known in the Homeless field) actually said on the radio that the Report was 'unbelievable'

[Andrew49]

Diarmuid Martin thanked the priests of the Dublin diocese as they
'grapple with a dark moment in the past history of our presbyterium'.He also thanked priests
'whose first thoughts in the midst of such a situation went out not to themselves, but to the victims and survivors and their families and also to the need for reparation and renewal in the life of the Church'.

There can be no overlooking the past. There is no short-cut in addressing the past. The credibility of the Church in this diocese of Dublin will only be regained when we honestly recognise the failures of the past, whatever our share of responsibility for them.

RTE News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0401/abuse.html)

This is absolutely true as I haven't been in the company of so many clergymen (and women) since 1967! I don't mean that in a trite way either. Martin seems to have the knack of cutting through the bulls**t and probably has more influence, with his quiet, honest ways that all the media spinners like Quinn and Sister Breda.

Happy Easter Diarmuid.

[Lapsedmethodist]

Meanwhile, across the great Atlantic.....

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/the-popes-defenders-ctd.html

[Andrew49]

The, as yet, un-resigned Sean Brady will now need to explain how the odious priest Brendan Smyth was allowed to act as a chaplain at Cork and Kerry hospitals almost three years after going on the run from a sex abuse probe in Northern Ireland. The priest worked in two Catholic hospitals in spite of Brady's claim to have taken "fairly decisive" action banning the notorious paedophile priest from public ministry. For around seven months in 1992/93 - 17 years after Brady administered oaths of secrecy on Smyth's victims, the predatory cleric worked as a 'temporary chaplain' at two hospitals in Cork and Kerry. During this 'temporary chaplaincy', Smyth prayed with (and preyed on) the sick, probably administered the Last Rites in at least one case and, astoundingly, was able to offer his services as a chaplain to a Cork all-girl secondary school!!!!

[Andrew49]

The Pope has ordered that the Irish Catholic Church clamp down on secular values and restore a traditional sense of respect among ordinary Catholics for priests, according to informed Church sources. Priests will be told not to question in public official Church teaching on controversial issues such as the papal ban on birth control or the admission of divorced Catholics living with new partners to the sacraments, especially Holy Communion. Vatican Gives Inspector Brady A Job (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/vatican-lsquoto-clamp-down-on-secularismrsquo-in-irish-church-14832429.html)

Seems to me to be a call to return to the era where priests could question and threaten children raped by priests.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The pope doesn't seem to understand that respect has to be earned. In the past they got away with bullying people along in their cult by threatening them socially.

'Secular values' includes putting paedophiles behind bars where they can no longer attack children.

'Church values' seem to indicate exceptions should be made for catholic priests. Ratzo can take a long walk off a short pier in his search for ethics.

[Andrew49]

The pope doesn't seem to understand that respect has to be earned. In the past they got away with bullying people along in their cult by threatening them socially.

'Secular values' includes putting paedophiles behind bars where they can no longer attack children.

'Church values' seem to indicate exceptions should be made for catholic priests. Ratzo can take a long walk off a short pier in his search for ethics.

Unfortunately he's governed by canon 'law' - and no code of ethics is required Link (http://www.patriciamdugan.com/inc/Article%20on%20Canon%20Law.htm)

[C. Flower]

Unfortunately he's governed by canon 'law' - and no code of ethics is required Link (http://www.patriciamdugan.com/inc/Article%20on%20Canon%20Law.htm)

Time to look for a Citizens' Arrest campaign, as with Tony Blair ?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Thats not a bad idea. Must look up what the system is re Citizens' Arrest in Ireland. It seems like a bloody good time to start doing that as it would embarrass both the catholic cult and its slaves in the Irish civil service.

Even attempts to arrest Brady would make good news. And help to bring it home to him that his lies about resigning if he were found in the situation he is now clearly in are going to bounce back on him.

Food for thought alright .. citizens arrests could be quite a disruptive tool...

[C. Flower]

Thats not a bad idea. Must look up what the system is re Citizens' Arrest in Ireland. It seems like a bloody good time to start doing that as it would embarrass both the catholic cult and its slaves in the Irish civil service.

Even attempts to arrest Brady would make good news. And help to bring it home to him that his lies about resigning if he were found in the situation he is now clearly in are going to bounce back on him.

Food for thought alright .. citizens arrests could be quite a disruptive tool...

There would need to be charges drawn up, I suppose ?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I'd have to check on the legality and I'd say any attempt would need to have a solicitor nearby as the nearest fatso in uniform is unlikey to even be aware that citizens can make arrests.

And knowing Ireland there'd be some Garda trying to arrest the instigator on the basis that its brain wouldn't be able to countenance a Cardinal being arrested by a civilian.

Must have a look ... its possibly a great route though because if citizens arrest is available then it should be used on Cardinals and Bishops who are 'necking it out'.

It would be good publicity anyway

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Sorry CF- Most people are arrested on suspicion of having committed a crime. Therefore there is no reason why a citizen can't arrest someone where they have knowledge a crime has been committed.

In Seanies case its two charges; Perversion of the course of justice and conspiracy to pevert the course of justice.

In fact given the obvious reluctance of the superstitious natives among the law enforcement agencies maybe a citizens arrest is the right way to go as it would undoubtedly highlight the failure of the Irish authorities to act.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

From an examination of citizens' arrest legality provided by wikipedia (with the necessary caution)

re Ireland; 'Any person can arrest someone who they have reasonable cause is in the act of committing or has committed an "arrestable" offence, that is one punishable by more than 5 years in prison.[12] The arrest can only be effected if the arrestor has reasonable cause that the person will attempt to avoid apprehension by Gardaí and the arrestor delivers the person to Garda custody as soon as is practicable.'

Here is the relevant section of the Irish statute book; http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html

[Andrew49]

Thats not a bad idea. Must look up what the system is re Citizens' Arrest in Ireland. It seems like a bloody good time to start doing that as it would embarrass both the catholic cult and its slaves in the Irish civil service.

Even attempts to arrest Brady would make good news. And help to bring it home to him that his lies about resigning if he were found in the situation he is now clearly in are going to bounce back on him.

Food for thought alright .. citizens arrests could be quite a disruptive tool...

;););)

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Looks possible. One would need a solictor nearby to prevent some fat eejit in a cheap blue suit treating it as an assault on a cardinal and making up a load of rubbish in order to charge the putative citizen making the arrest.

Fliming nearby to go straigh to YouTube would be a good move as well to forestall knackers various from pumping out lies about what happened.

Its an interesting one and as far as I can see there is no legal barrier to any citizen arresting Sean Brady on charges of perversion of teh course of justice and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. The latter would be needed in case Seanie tried making out he was only doing a clerking job.

He might be able to wriggle on the perversion charge but he'd have a hell of a challenge denying he was conspiring to pervert the course of justice. Thats effectively why these canon law courts were used.

There was never anything stopping Seanie or his oppo walking in to the nearest Garda station. They didn't and thats why these charges exist.

here is the relevant section from the Criminal Law Act 1997;

4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.

(2) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), where an arrestable offence has been committed, any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána, with reasonable cause, suspects that an arrestable offence has been committed, he or she may arrest without warrant anyone whom the member, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.

(4) An arrest other than by a member of the Garda Síochána may only be effected by a person under subsection (1) or (2) where he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects that the person to be arrested by him or her would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a member of the Garda Síochána.

(5) A person who is arrested pursuant to this section by a person other than a member of the Garda Síochána shall be transferred into the custody of the Garda Síochána as soon as practicable.

(6) This section shall not affect the operation of any enactment restricting the institution of proceedings for an offence or prejudice any power of arrest conferred by law apart from this section.'

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html

The only difficulty I can see is an argument that that law may not have been in force at the time but then the church can't argue that as they've been denying that misprision of felony can be used as it was 'deleted' strangely enough around 2002.

My reading is that the Misprision of Felony Charge was removed from the statute books by cultknackers in the Irish system who realised a load of priests could be charged with it.

They can hardly remove 'perversion of the course of justice' though as the excuse used that the Misprision of Felony was a defunct law certainly does not apply and journos would have been all over it like a rash.

I just don't think they ever thought that a canon law kangaroo court used to intimidate witnesses into silence would ever reach the Irish papers. Otherwise they might well have spiked the statute book there too.

And please don't regard this as a bit of a stretch- there are a number of examples around of FF's amending Irish law to their own benefit- especially when it comes to their own pensions. And of course Fahey's Lost At Sea scheme should give anybody an education as to how bent these people are prepared to be.

[Andrew49]

There was never anything stopping Seanie walking in to the nearest Garda station. They didn't and thats why these charges exist.

Bear in mind that the building where Inspector General Brady administered the oaths of secrecy to the rape victims is mere yards from Dundalk Garda Station!

If such an 'arrest' were to happen or attempted, coupled with 'arrests' of other complicit prelates, during a General Election what would be the response of the State ...... ?

[C. Flower]

One of Lapsed's links lead me to this article by Christopher Hitchens on why the Vatican does not have the right to Diplomatic Immunity.

http://www.slate.com/id/2255270/

[Andrew49]

One of Lapsed's links lead me to this article by Christopher Hitchens on why the Vatican does not have the right to Diplomatic Immunity.

http://www.slate.com/id/2255270/


Officials at Foggy Bottom [US State Department] say that for human rights purposes, the Vatican is not a state!

So for the purposes of arraigning those complicit in the cover-up of child rape - and this cover up goes right to the rotten head of the Church - the Catican is off-limits. WTF!

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Actually this could be advantageous Andrew as traditionally the Xombies have been mooing that a state can't be sued under US or international law. If the US state dept are saying the Vatican isn't a state then there's nothing to stop a class action suit by survivors in the states actually suing the pope.

Its a strange one though- Henrry Kissinger has a warrant out for him in Spain on war crime charges and yet he appears to have attended the Bilderberg yukfest- in Spain.

Still it would be excellent news if the US legal system allowed the pursuit of the head of the catholic church as it could mean ultimately and technically in an extradition case or if they regard it as a wholly private matter then the pope has had his last trip to the states. He wouldn't be able to go there as he would be liable to being served with a subpoena.

[Andrew49]

This takes some doing!

Who is more unpopular than the Government ?

Ireland’s Catholic bishops are now more unpopular than the Government :eek:

Who is more unpopular than the Taoiseach ?

Cardinal Sean Brady :eek:

Source (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0614/1224272439599.html)

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Maybe there should be one last reality TV show in Ireland. They could put Sean Brady and a couple of other senior liars in a house somewhere and watch him trying to explain himself to other guests as they arrive.

I'd get up early on a Sunday to watch Seanie trying to say mass in a big brother house.

[Andrew49]

Maybe there should be one last reality TV show in Ireland. They could put Sean Brady and a couple of other senior liars in a house somewhere and watch him trying to explain himself to other guests as they arrive.

I'd get up early on a Sunday to watch Seanie trying to say mass in a big brother house.

I'd attach the 7 speakers to that broadcast and watch it in the garden on the gable end with a few beers and some joints.

It seems to me that getting to become a bishops depends hugely on how many oaths of secrecy you've administered rather than how many souls you've ministered to. I'm expecting leaks of 'fisticuffs' from the Episcopal Conference - or what passes for fisticuffs from these men in dresses.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Maybe the Apostolic Visitation gang could be shoved into a corrugated iron shed near Navan and have cameras trained on them.

Although given the reputation of catholic clergy it would almost certainly have to be shown after the watershed.

[Roland The Gunslinger]

It's becoming quite obvious now that the authorities in this country don't care that vulnerable children are being ill treated or victims of abuse,whether its the Catholic church,HSE,the Gardai or the government.There is no protection for children in this country.

Slightly off topic,but if anybody seen the Prime Time program on internet child pornography,the fact that the Gardai would not get involved in the program was simply because the whole issue of Judge Brian Curtain being allowed to walk free on charges of possessing child pornography because of a technicality(how naive have you to be to believe that ?) would come up again.

Making a citizens on Brady would more than likely end up with the person making the arrest getting done for false imprisonment.It just boggles the mind that an institution that claims to follow the teachings of Jesus,can lie and cover up these heinous crimes and people still think they are a force for good.

We have seen it here on this very forum,Catholics making excuses for the inexcusable,well I don't believe in a concept of Hell but I hope I'm wrong and there is a special place reserved for the lot of them,if you are making excuses for the church then you are as guilty of helping to cover it up,you are as much scum as they are.

I am not trying to incite violence or think I'm some kind of tough guy or hard man but it is quite clear to me that if any of the children in my family suffered at the hands of these scumbags we will get little or no help from the authorities,a pedophile or a rapist gets a couple of years in prison then like in the case of Michael Murray they complain because their privacy is being invaded(you couldn't make this **** up).Speaking for myself I would take the law into my own hands,in this country you get 14 years for murder with a 25% remission,so you are out after 8,small price to pay,these bastards gave up their human rights and should be treated like an animal that is sick and put down.

I say this because when I was child on 2 occasions I came very close to being one of these victims,only out of pure luck that I wasn't and I am reminded every single day how lucky I am.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I think its extremely good news that some gang of psychosexual inadequates is arriving in Ireland to give about about secular opinion.

If it wasn't for secular opinion sure wouldn't everything be grand? We'd have been a long time waiting for Catholic sources to blow the lid off what the church's deviant community were up to.

I can't wait to hear what advice a group of septuagenarian virgins from a middle eastern cult have for the nation (going forward).

[Andrew49]

It's becoming quite obvious now that the authorities in this country don't care that vulnerable children are being ill treated or victims of abuse,whether its the Catholic church,HSE,the Gardai or the government.There is no protection for children in this country.

Slightly off topic,but if anybody seen the Prime Time program on internet child pornography,the fact that the Gardai would not get involved in the program was simply because the whole issue of Judge Brian Curtain being allowed to walk free on charges of possessing child pornography because of a technicality(how naive have you to be to believe that ?) would come up again.

Making a citizens on Brady would more than likely end up with the person making the arrest getting done for false imprisonment.It just boggles the mind that an institution that claims to follow the teachings of Jesus,can lie and cover up these heinous crimes and people still think they are a force for good.

We have seen it here on this very forum,Catholics making excuses for the inexcusable,well I don't believe in a concept of Hell but I hope I'm wrong and there is a special place reserved for the lot of them,if you are making excuses for the church then you are as guilty of helping to cover it up,you are as much scum as they are.

I am not trying to incite violence or think I'm some kind of tough guy or hard man but it is quite clear to me that if any of the children in my family suffered at the hands of these scumbags we will get little or no help from the authorities,a pedophile or a rapist gets a couple of years in prison then like in the case of Michael Murray they complain because their privacy is being invaded(you couldn't make this **** up).Speaking for myself I would take the law into my own hands,in this country you get 14 years for murder with a 25% remission,so you are out after 8,small price to pay,these bastards gave up their human rights and should be treated like an animal that is sick and put down.

I say this because when I was child on 2 occasions I came very close to being one of these victims,only out of pure luck that I wasn't and I am reminded every single day how lucky I am.

Seems to me the State/HSE just doesn't like children - I think the HSE would like it if children from dysfunctional families were all to be dumped in a drain in Meath and forgotten about. Perhaps they would like it if the Industrial Schools/Magdalene Asylums System or something similar to that architecture of child containment were to be resurrected. That way the sins of the State would be out of sight... again.

Apparently the Judge's computer and notebook is lying in some Dail storeroom - with a Hands Off notice on them for 50 years!

Background: (It's good to refresh the memory on this case)

Curtin had been sitting in front of the IBM computer all through the night. Kerry's busiest barrister was a sort of window-shopping cyber sex tourist, getting ready to do some D and D - drinking and downloading. It was after dawn on that sunny July morning when he hit a website called L********, and then clicked on to a page that read:

¨I WARN YOU, YOU‘RE ENTERING THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL SITE ON THE WEB: No legal content! phedophilias (sic). All sick, all sex maniacs! CLICK HERE TO ENTER L*****'S WORLD.¨

At 7am on the morning of July 12, 1999, Brian Curtin entered the details of his credit card to view the material. It was explicit images of sexual conduct between adults and children, graphic pictures of pre-pubescent children, boys under the age of eight of nine and girls under 12. It cost him $29.95 to download 280 images from L*****'s World.

FAST FORWARD Monday 13 November 2006 afternoon, Michael Mead of the US Postal Inspection Service was in a Committee Room in Leinster House. He was ready to show the 280 images, and explain the origin of the pictures found on Judge Brian Curtin's computer to the seven members of the Oireachtas committee. Earlier, civil servants who would have to be present, were given the option of absenting themselves from the potentially harrowing ordeal. Then, just before the TDs and senators were shown the images, Judge Curtin's counsel dramatically announced that his client was resigning. Chairman Denis Donovan insisted that the judge's resignation was "irrevocable and unconditional", before adjourning the meeting.

The computer and other evidence collected from the judge's home will be locked away in a strong room in the vaults of Leinster House. The material will not be viewed in 50 years by historians; it will probably be destroyed. Those who have seen the images of child pornography from the website say they are "vile", "sickening" "unimaginably cruel". He had been a judge for just seven months when a team of detectives arrived on May 27, 2002 to search the house where he lived alone in Tralee. It was part of a co-ordinated nationwide search codenamed Operation Amethyst, where the gardai had been supplied details of Irish subscribers to US websites offering images of child pornography for sale.

Although the house was untidy, detectives knew exactly what they were looking for and immediately seized the computer with the diaries and notebooks nearby. One of the notebooks had details of internet chatrooms, the codes to enter them, the false name used by Curtin, and lurid accounts in the judge's longhand of the conversations he had conducted and the name of the person with whom he had communicated. A graphic picture of a young man was glued on to the inside cover of the book. Judge Curtin never sat on the bench of the Circuit Court again, although he continued to draw his annual salary of €153,000 until his resignation 13 Nov 2006; and now, if he qualifies as permanently disables, he will be entitled to an annual pension of €19,000 and a lumpsum of €57,000, both of which will be subject to tax.

Some felt cheated by Judge Curtin's resignation, reasoning that if he did not have the decency to step down when such vile pornographic images of children suffering were found on his computer, he should have suffered an unprecedented public disgrace for an Irish judge: impeachment. Others were relieved at being spared the indignity of weeks of graphic detail of the judge's depravity being debated by celebrity lawyers at huge taxpayer expense.

Judge Curtin's defence was that he had intended to view adult pornography which, while distasteful, breaks no law. He was inebriated and drunken clumsiness caused him to inadvertently download the grossly offensive and illegal material from L*****'s World. Shortly before his trial, the gardai had also told him that they had found Trojan Horse viruses on his computer. Judge Curtin's legal team researched incidents in the UK where defendants charged with possessing child pornography on their computers had successfully used the presence of Trojan Horse viruses as a defence. [My Comment on this: Can a Trojan Horse be so powerful that it can obtain a notebook - obtain a biro and then write in the notebook with the EXACT same handwriting as the judge?]

His trial collapsed at its opening in April 2004 before any evidence was heard; the search warrant used by the gardai was invalid because it was out of date. The gardai were excoriated for allowing such a sensitive and important case to collapse by a legal technicality and the Director of Public Prosecutions was criticised for allowing the case to go forward with a obviously flawed warrant. There was an enormous public outcry and the Justice Minister and the Taoiseach both gave an undertaking to the Dail that no sweetheart deal would be done with the judge. Yet under the law, Judge Curtin was as entitled to the presumption of innocence as anyone declared not guilty by a jury, even on the direction of the trial judge.

Those who have seen the images of child pornography from the website say they are 'vile', 'sickening' and 'unimaginably cruel'

In the real world, however, Judge Curtin could never have sat as a judge again after the images of child-pornography were found on his computer on May 27, 2002. What authority or respect could he command from defendants when he had been acquitted on a technicality? Other judges and senior members of the legal world said privately that Judge Curtin should immediately resign. Within a couple of weeks, the Government moved a motion to impeach him in both Houses of the Oireachtas, claiming he was "unsuitable to exercise the office of a judge of the Circuit Court". A seven-member committee, under the chairmanship of Mr Donovan, a TD and solicitor, was established to gather facts about the case and report to the Oireachtas.

The judge retained a shrewd Kerry solicitor, Robert Pierce, who engaged top counsel: former Attorney General John Rogers, Paul Burns, SC, and Cian Ferriter, BL. They immediately moved to block the inquiry in the High Court and then appealed to the Supreme Court, but all seven judges dismissed the action and ordered Judge Curtin to hand his computer over to the committee.

He had been the presenter of a popular Sunday morning show on Radio Kerry and a leading light in amateur dramatics. But the man who had once been hailed by gardai, greeted warmly by passing dignitaries and welcomed by colleagues in Kerry and Dublin cut a pathetic figure in his home town of Tralee. He was assaulted in a bar and a month after his acquittal, he was arrested by gardai and later convicted of drunk driving. He checked into a treatment centre for alcohol abuse and had ongoing health problems.

As the hearings in Leinster House began last Monday, Judge Curtin's counsel asked the chairman to consider new medical evidence: an MRI scan that showed organic brain damage and a consultant psychiatrist's opinion that said Brian Curtin was not fit to serve as a judge because of permanent disability. He wanted the committee to write an interim report for the Oireachtas that showed Judge Curtin had resigned because of ill health. Mr Donovan declined and moved to bring in the US detective to show the images found on the judge's computer.

After further urgent conversations between the lawyers for the judge and the committee, John Rogers said his client was resigning. Mr Donovan said it had to be irrevocable and unconditional. At 3.45pm, a copy of the resignation letter delivered to Government Buildings was shown to the committee. There was no deal, sweetheart or sourdough, done.

Judge Curtin's annual €19,000 pension and €57,000 lumpsum payout, will only be paid if medical consultants agree with his doctors' diagnosis that he is permanently unfit to serve as a judge. And, say sources close to the Government, he will not be given anything without his claim being rigorously tested. Friends says Judge Curtin is a very unhealthy, penniless and broken man; that he would like to sell his house and move abroad to live in a kinder climate, but his elderly father is seriously ill.

The once witty and ebullient lawyer who sparked off the biggest judicial scandal since the foundation of the State will have to live with his infamy and its perverted celebrity. And the trial for his neighbours in Tralee, and his former friends and colleagues? Can they come to terms with loving the sinner while hating the sin? Depraved? You be the judge (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/depraved-you-be-the-judge-69342.html)

[Andrew49]

€250,000+ The Price Of Inspector Brady's Investigation

The Catholic Church here has paid damages believed to be well in excess of €250,000 to a female victim of paedophile priest Fr Brendan Smyth. The out-of-court settlement was made without admission of liability on the part of the defendants. The woman's case was due to go to a hearing in the High Court in a month's time. She is believed to have accepted apologies from the defendants. She was sexually abused by Brendan Smyth from 1970 to 1975. She says that 35 years later, her marriage and quality of life have been greatly affected by the trauma of the violent abuse which began when she was 14 and continued until she was 20.

She sued Cardinal Seán Brady in his personal and official capacities, the diocese of Kilmore and the Norbertine Order to which Smyth belonged.

In her sworn affidavit, she accused Cardinal Brady of failing to tell the gardaí that the Church had received formal signed complaints against Smyth of sexual assault and paedophilia on two boys. Since the controversy about the secret interviews became public last March, Dr Brady has said the did his duty by informing his bishop of Smyth's abuse of the boys, that he was not the designated authority to report to the gardaí and that Smyth's Norbertine Order was responsible for the paedophile following his speedy removal of his priestly functions in Kilmore and other dioceses.

Source (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0614/smythb.html)

Brady's 'investigation' CLEARED fellow cleric Brendan Smyth to continue his rape of children for another 18 years!

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I note the bit about Sean not being the 'designated' person to inform Gardai. I wasn't aware that the church designated such officers. In fact there is a lot of evidence to say that no priest at all is 'designated' to involve authorities.

Then again those of us without an expensive education and years studying 'ethics' know that its a crime not to report such assaults.

Maybe Sean was off sick the day they said priestly ethics were in addition to the normal human ethics.

What an old fraud that man is.

[C. Flower]

Priest shafted for standing up against child abuse cover-up -
Cardinal Sean Brady appears to have taken heavy handed revenge against a priest who stood up to him.
http://bocktherobber.com/2010/08/priest-shafted-for-standing-up-to-child-abuse

[Andrew49]

Priest shafted for standing up against child abuse cover-up -
Cardinal Sean Brady appears to have taken heavy handed revenge against a priest who stood up to him.
http://bocktherobber.com/2010/08/priest-shafted-for-standing-up-to-child-abuse

There's a huge splash in the local paper here and I can't help feeling and think that this guy is being victimised.


Angry parishioners confronted Bishop Gerard Clifford at Blackrock Church after Fr. Oliver Brennan stepped aside pending an investigation an allegation over 'child safeguarding', the Argus has learned. Some had been expecting a statement about the proposed transfer of Fr Brennan, which had stirred strong opposition, but that was not the statement Bishop Clifford read out at the vigil mass on Saturday evening. Bishop Gerard Clifford spoke to the congregation about a decision made concerning their parish priest, whom he named as Fr. Oliver Brennan. Source (http://www.argus.ie/premium/news/rocked-2301989.html)

The fact that parishioners have been treated so shabbily shows that Brady (or the Church) hasn't changed even one little bit since he cleared Fr. Brendan Smyth of accusations that he was abusing children in 1975.

[Cato]

There's a huge splash in the local paper here and I can't help feeling and think that this guy is being victimised.



The fact that parishioners have been treated so shabbily shows that Brady (or the Church) hasn't changed even one little bit since he cleared Fr. Brendan Smyth of accusations that he was abusing children in 1975.

I've just seen a photo of this priest and realized that I knew him while I was in Maynooth. His rooms were just down from mine. He was a lecturer at the time. He is a liberal and I always found him to be a decent bloke. He was very friendly with and an ally of the liberal theologian Enda McDonagh.

[disability student]

Here is a video from the CNN re Brady interview as he has stated his own position as before.

Source:http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/01/ireland.cardinal/?hpt=T2#fbid=DfkLlCGZUiN&wom=true

[disability student]

Brady should step down after this CNN interview as he don't GET it at all. He stubbornly clings to his own position :(

I hope he quits before he reaches his retirement age -75 per Canon law.

[Cáthasaigh]

YouTube- Tim Minchin - Pope Song (mirror)

[Newsy]

Here is a video from the CNN re Brady interview as he has stated his own position as before.

Source:http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/01/ireland.cardinal/?hpt=T2#fbid=DfkLlCGZUiN&wom=true

I just watched it. He said that he didn't come across too many priests who were disillusioned.........he obviously isn't out much then. Some shephard of the people, eh!!!!

Interesting that at that point the interview was stopped.

[Newsy]

Priest shafted for standing up against child abuse cover-up -
Cardinal Sean Brady appears to have taken heavy handed revenge against a priest who stood up to him.
http://bocktherobber.com/2010/08/priest-shafted-for-standing-up-to-child-abuse

It is no wonder that so many priests remain quiet, with the likes of this kind of thing going on.

brady desperately trying to hold on to a semblence of power.......he doesn't realise that that power, is already gone, in the hearts and minds of a great many people.

The church being presecuted, from within........oh dear, no place for truth, as long as this is going on.

[Andrew49]

Ireland's most senior Catholic cleric continues to vehemently face down calls to resign after revelations that he was at a secret tribunal where sex abuse victims were made to take an oath of secrecy. The secret tribunal was held behind closed doors in 1975 only yards from Dundalk Garda station. It was admitted by the Church that it moved Smyth around Ireland, Britain and the US, where he continued to abuse children for 18 more years after Brady's 'Investigation'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWNUkpyRTew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v_DI8_yPQM

[Andrew49]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/franklyIdontgiveadamn.jpg