Come Home Mary Harney ! Says Mary O'Rourke

[C. Flower]

Mary O'Rourke has called on Mary Harney to come home from New Zealand to do her job.

Should she come ?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/fianna-fail-backbencher-calls-on-harney-to-return-449646.html

[Digout]

Bring her back and put her on trial for treason, along with the rest of her comrades in FF.

[Xray]

I say stay in NZ until the crisis is unmanagable. She should do easter there. God forbid she continue in office.

[PaddyJoe]

By next week she could be applying for ayslum!

[5intheface]

I love the options in that poll. Can we add, 'Should Mary O'Rourke join her in NZ?'

[Newsy]

She gets paid to be Minister for Health. Of course she should come back to deal with this sorry mess.

If, she had been doing her job, she would have been on top of what is going on in Tallaght.

I heard her on Drive Time this evening.
She said that she had confidence in the CEO in Tallaght, Conlon. She talked that even BEFORE he was appointed, he instilled confidence in her and she continued to have confidence.
As I listened, I thought to myself, she is trying to shift the responsibility. It sounded as though SHE was defending him. I couldn't believe it.

She said that she wasn't TOLD. But doesn't leadership involve ASKING questions???

[Xray]

She gets paid to be Minister for Health. Of course she should come back to deal with this sorry mess.

If, she had been doing her job, she would have been on top of what is going on in Tallaght.

I heard her on Drive Time this evening.
She said that she had confidence in the CEO in Tallaght, Conlon. She talked that even BEFORE he was appointed, he instilled confidence in her and she continued to have confidence.
As I listened, I thought to myself, she is trying to shift the responsibility. It sounded as though SHE was defending him. I couldn't believe it.

She said that she wasn't TOLD. But doesn't leadership involve ASKING questions???

actually in fairness she outsourced to the HSE, the minister and department are really not at the pictures here at all. she should stay put, i could not be listening to the condescending over confidence that would follow.

[Digout]

Remember the Dempsey story at the beginning of the year? The country was in crisis and he was sunning his ass on a beach somewhere. These FF ******** dont give a **** about the country, all they care about is their salaries, pensions and what happens to their friends in large businesses.

[Newsy]

actually in fairness she outsourced to the HSE, the minister and department are really not at the pictures here at all. she should stay put, i could not be listening to the condescending over confidence that would follow.

But isn't she ultimately responsible??? Doesn't the buck stop with Harney??

[Digout]

But isn't she ultimately responsible??? Doesn't the buck stop with Harney??

No, it stops with the HSE. Harney has nothing to do with the HSE ( thats what she says anyway).

[Newsy]

No, it stops with the HSE. Harney has nothing to do with the HSE ( thats what she says anyway).

I know she uses them as her cover.

Well, IF she isn't responsible, then why is she called the Minister for Health.
Are we looking at her getting paid under false pretenses???

[Xray]

Remember the Dempsey story at the beginning of the year? The country was in crisis and he was sunning his ass on a beach somewhere. These FF ******** dont give a **** about the country, all they care about is their salaries, pensions and what happens to their friends in large businesses.

The only difference being that a transport or environment minster might make some difference at his/her desk in deploying emergency services/army, seeking extra grit and communicating with the public.

There is nothing the minister for health could say or do now that would in anyway change the fact that she has taken the heath service down a flawed path of reform that she has had to abandon due to the collapse we have suffered (largely as a consequence of her economic brain waves). There were 7 consultants doing the jobs of 18 according to the ihca. Its a resource issue, supply cannot meet demand. She insists it does, and that in fact she can slash more from it and by some three card trick it will provide even more with less. What sh1te! at least dempsey did not tell me i could grit my drive way with imaginary salt or ski to work. Apparently we can treat people in imaginary beds with non-existent staff, apparently the people rotting waiting are also imaginary. marys harney plan is that the her mates in the business world will bring sense to health service and some capital expenditure from willing banks. i see a flaw with this.




Whether she is in NZ or at her desk will not make a fig of difference to those on the ground bailing the system out as best they can or those waiting in vain. We are looking at increased demand, less funding and dreadful morale. A report, investigation, reassurance or sickening hand ringing can be done without.

[Xray]

But isn't she ultimately responsible??? Doesn't the buck stop with Harney??

No it doesn't. She refers Dail questions to the HSE for that very reason.

[Digout]

No it doesn't. She refers Dail questions to the HSE for that very reason.

So, what does she do ? She costs us over €500k a year in direct payments to keep her in office.

[Newsy]

No it doesn't. She refers Dail questions to the HSE for that very reason.

So, under what Gov Dept does the HSE fall under, please?

[Xray]

So, what does she do ? She costs us over €500k a year in direct payments to keep her in office.

she directs policy i assume and has executive control of the areas the dept of health control like interacting with professional bodies etc that the HSE has not taken over.

i used to like her many years ago to be honest, but she is tired, very arrogant and incapable of understanding anything other than business people who want to make money. she literally cannot understand public healthcare or what would motivate anyone to work in it or try make it work.

she planned to deliver 1000s of new beds with co-located privatised public facilities. now at the core of that is a recognition that the system needed those beds. surely she must now also know that that plan is in the bin.

what is plan B? not having a plan B is not good enough. we cant just leave peoples letter from the GP in the mail room of our acute hospitals.

she like many others need to admit they made an error and either come up with a plan B or move on.

[Xray]

So, under what Gov Dept does the HSE fall under, please?

none, it has its own chief executive who is allocated funding by her annually. the day to day running is not her concern. that is why they set up the HSE, politicians had a pain in the arse dealing with the local county hospital, they love blaming the "HSE" now. the reality is nobody is actually to blame at all.

if you want to get silly, the HSE is answerable to a few departments like children, social welfare, health etc. nobody in the department of health has executive day to day control over anything that goes on.
in fact many of the public hospitals are not actually HSE hospitals, they are independent. including tallaght.

[People Korps]

She said that she wasn't TOLD. But doesn't leadership involve ASKING questions???

The issue would be if she had known all along, essentially where did the info go to and where did it stop, last one in info line holds the poo can.


that's why in political scandals you often see the .it turned out that mintser x heard all about it three years earlier and did nothing.sure that is a porblem but sitting around thinking of the thousand questions to ask....did they empty the bed pans in hospital 8 in St James at the weekend?

[Xray]

The issue would be if she had known all along, essentially where did the info go to and where did it stop, last one in info line holds the poo can.


that's why in political scandals you often see the .it turned out that mintser x heard all about it three years earlier and did nothing.sure that is a porblem but sitting around thinking of the thousand questions to ask....did they empty the bed pans in hospital 8 in St James at the weekend?

Actually i don't agree, if you ignore and contradict the professional organisations when they tell you that they system is dangerously organised and resourced then you are responsible for your "better" system.
Make no mistake, the current system is hers.

A better question for her would be how exactly a hospital without the correct number of staff in a critical area is expected to operate? there are only two options.

1. is that the remaining staff do a dangerous high work load risking serious errors.

2. or they do a safe amount of work and leave others untreated.

She created the conditions, the detail of what she knew and when is boring.

[PaddyJoe]

She gets paid to be Minister for Health. Of course she should come back to deal with this sorry mess.

If, she had been doing her job, she would have been on top of what is going on in Tallaght.

I heard her on Drive Time this evening.
She said that she had confidence in the CEO in Tallaght, Conlon. She talked that even BEFORE he was appointed, he instilled confidence in her and she continued to have confidence.
As I listened, I thought to myself, she is trying to shift the responsibility. It sounded as though SHE was defending him. I couldn't believe it.

She said that she wasn't TOLD. But doesn't leadership involve ASKING questions???
Hi Newsy:)
I half heard that interview today as well and was under the impression that she was told. Just looked it up on the RTE site and in fact she was told about the issue by CEO of the Hospital, Professor Kevin Conlon at a meetinhg on the 15 December last year. Although she tries to dodge the issue Mary Wilson squeezes out an admission that she was aware of the situation back then. Have a listen on the Drive Time podcast starting at 1.49.
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/drivetime/

[Newsy]

none, it has its own chief executive you is allocated funding by her annually. the day to day running is not her concern. that is why they set up the HSE, politicians had a pain in the arse dealing with the local county hospital, they love blaming the "HSE" now. the reality is nobody is actually to blame at all.

She allocates Drumm a budget.

Ok, lets follow the dots here......we pay, through taxes, to fund the depts....the health dept funds HSE via Drumm.....some 'system' failed in Tallagh and peoples' health isn't being looked after.

Soooooo, take your pick.....CEO in Tallagh....CEO of HSE, Drumm.....CEO of Dept of Health, Harney.

You are being funny, aren't you, whn you say that no one is to blame...or take responsibility???? Please tell me, you are joking!!!!

I liked her too, when she was in opposition, (I really did) but shortly after getting into gov. she went a little ott and hasn't stopped.

[People Korps]

Actually i don't agree, if you ignore and contradict the professional organisations when they tell you that they system is dangerously organised and resourced then you are responsible for your "better" system.
Make no mistake, the current system is hers.

A better question for her would be how exactly a hospital without the correct number of staff in a critical area is expected to operate? there are only two options.

1. is that the remaining staff do a dangerous high work load risking serious errors.

2. or they do a safe amount of work and leave others untreated.

She created the conditions, the detail of what she knew and when is boring.

Dont get me wrong the health service is on rocky ground indeed, and getting worse.
but re Harney and this scandal the worst for her is that exposes a two week jaunt to New Zealand our big competitor for the global lamb export market......what is she going to sell them for us for two weeks?

If she wont come back to sort out the HSE mess then it will reflect very badly on her, but she has the skin of a rhino.

[People Korps]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2010/0312/frontpageimage.jpg?ts=1268356576 from today Irish Times

[Newsy]

Hi Newsy:)
I half heard that interview today as well and was under the impression that she was told. Just looked it up on the RTE site and in fact she was told about the issue by CEO of the Hospital, Professor Kevin Conlon at a meetinhg on the 15 December last year. Although she tries to dodge the issue Mary Wilson squeezes out an admission that she was aware of the situation back then. Have a listen on the Drive Time podcast starting at 1.49.
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/drivetime/

Thank you.

I understood that she said she didn't know the extent of the problem.

Thanks, PaddyJoe.

[Newsy]

She created the conditions, the detail of what she knew and when is boring.


the reality is nobody is actually to blame at all.

I don't mean to be odd about this BUT aren't you contradicting yourself???

[Xray]

Like every other issue in this country the media are asking the wrong questions here, they are out for a scalp, someone to blame, one scape goat. That is not the interesting point or the solution.

What is the expected standard on this issue? Exactly
When was it set?
By whom?
Who is responsible implement it?
Who inspects that?
And what is the current norm relative to the expected standard?
If the standard is not being met on a routine basis is it actually possible to do so without extra resources?

You cannot just have a vague expectation of standards and a vague idea that the resources should be enough or that you might reorganise things later to met them.

Because the next issue here is whether or not Tallaght is unusual. On the face of it Tallaght is one of the best resourced and run hospitals in the country, it is also one of the newest. Do you really think Tallaght is some black sheep?

I doubt it.

[Xray]

I don't mean to be odd about this BUT aren't you contradicting yourself???

The problem with the old system was that the responsibility landed on the desk of a politician, either locally or in the the dept of health.

The current system is impossible to understand in terms of accountability, even TDs go mad as trying to get to the root of anything is like picking mercury up with a fork.

So although morally and politically I hold her responsible, in fact she is not directly responsible as she handed that power over to someone else who is not politically accountable. Its a bit like FF letting the PDs run heath so they don't get in trouble for it. Its clever, but eventually not that clever. I hope time has finally run out on this insult.

[PaddyJoe]

Like every other issue in this country the media are asking the wrong questions here, they are out for a scalp, someone to blame, one scape goat. That is not the interesting point or the solution.

What is the expected standard on this issue? Exactly
When was it set?
By whom?
Who is responsible implement it?
Who inspects that?
And what is the current norm relative to the expected standard?
If the standard is not being met on a routine basis is it actually possible to do so without extra resources?

You cannot just have a vague expectation of standards and a vague idea that the resources should be enough or that you might reorganise things later to met them.

Because the next issue here is whether or not Tallaght is unusual. On the face of it Tallaght is one of the best resourced and run hospitals in the country, it is also one of the newest. Do you really think Tallaght is some black sheep?

I doubt it.

There's a report in today(Friday) IT saying that there has already been an inquiry into the hospital:

THE BOARD of Tallaght hospital was so concerned about the way the hospital was being run, it commissioned an independent report on the operation of the facility from Pricewaterhouse Coopers (PwC), it has emerged.

The Irish Times has learned that the PwC report presented to the hospital board late last year recommended a much smaller senior management team and a smaller board.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0312/1224266109432.html

[Xray]

i am unsure what pricewaterhousecopper know about hospitals to be honest.

I once worked in a hospital that spend 80k on a similar external review of a department by management consultants. They were about for a few weeks. One of their first actions was to install a staff suggestion box.

They came up with a significant number of good suggestions. The last bit of their report noted that the department was under funded and this was its main problem. That spending 80k on an external review was a waste of money given that every major suggestion in the report was found in the internal staff suggestion box. In short the resources for reform and better practice already existed, but were ignored.

It is a big mistake to assume that the people you have working for you are useless, that is essentially what a lot of people do with the heath service.

[PaddyJoe]

i am unsure what pricewaterhousecopper know about hospitals to be honest.

I once worked in a hospital that spend 80k on a similar external review of a department by management consultants. They were about for a few weeks. One of their first actions was to install a staff suggestion box.

They came up with a significant number of good suggestions. The last bit of their report noted that the department was under funded and this was its main problem. That spending 80k on an external review was a waste of money given that every major suggestion in the report was found in the internal staff suggestion box. In short the resources for reform and better practice already existed, but were ignored.

It is a big mistake to assume that the people you have working for you are useless, that is essentially what a lot of people do with the heath service.

I agree with you about consultants. Normally the idea is that management can kick an issue to touch for a few months, waffle about issues being examined, produce a report which suggests that management do what they intended doing in the first place and then rely on the consultant's report to take unpopular measures. Its a process as old as the hills!

[Xray]

I agree with you about consultants. Normally the idea is that management can kick an issue to touch for a few months, waffle about issues being examined, produce a report which suggests that management do what they intended doing in the first place and then rely on the consultant's report to take unpopular measures. Its a process as old as the hills!

well its basically all harney has done. its all pr, reports, reorganised management teams and big ideas. where are de beds?

good nite.

[PaddyJoe]

What gets me pissed off about this whole thing is that Harney and the PDs were the pioneers in introducing 2 tier health care in Ireland. Harney's agenda is a private health service for those who can pay and a rump for those who cant. I wonder how Owen O'Callaghan is getting on with his 900 bed private hospital behind Jury's in Cork? Refused planning permission again in the last day or two afaik but I dont have a link.

[C. Flower]

well its basically all harney has done. its all pr, reports, reorganised management teams and big ideas. where are de beds?

good nite.

In co-located, tax-incentivised private hospitals ?

[Xray]

In co-located, tax-incentivised private hospitals ?

Put it this way, she had a plan to deliver several additional hospitals using the private sector a few years ago. I can only assume that means she accepted that the extra capacity was a requirement.

Now that plan had run into the sand, but we are still down the capacity. What is the plan for dealing with that other than visits sites in NZ to see what they think?

It is worth pointing out that "beds" are not metal things on fours wheels. It is the capacity to treat someone as an inpatient with a complex disease. It requires staff, equipment, organisation, a building and many other things, it is not a metal think shoved into some dark corner. For example we do not have half enough neuro beds in the country, therefore people with serious brain disase and injury do not get the correct type of care in time. What does the person we hired to sort this out plan to do about that? To suggest that all of the capacity problem can somehow be magiced away by "reorganising" things is utter nonsense.

It is true that good management and best practice could get more out of what we have, but it is also true we need more resources or less patients. Pretending otherwise is not only inhuman it is also very expensive in the long run.