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Andrew49
19-06-2010, 06:48 PM
On this day in 1953, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were convicted of conspiring to pass U.S. atomic secrets to the Soviets, are executed at Sing Sing Prison in Ossining, New York. Both refused to admit any wrongdoing and proclaimed their innocence right up to the time of their deaths, by the electric chair. The Rosenbergs were the first U.S. citizens to be convicted and executed for espionage during peacetime and their case remains controversial to this day. President Dwight D. Eisenhower issued a statement declining to invoke executive clemency for the pair. He stated,
"I can only say that, by immeasurably increasing the chances of atomic war, the Rosenbergs may have condemned to death tens of millions of innocent people all over the world. The execution of two human beings is a grave matter. But even graver is the thought of the millions of dead whose deaths may be directly attributable to what these spies have done."

Eyewitness testimony (as given by a newsreel report featured in the 1982 documentary film The Atomic Cafe) describes the circumstances of the Rosenbergs' death, noting that while Julius Rosenberg died after the first series of electrocutions, his wife did not. After the normal course of electrocutions, attendants removed the strapping and other equipment only to have doctors determine that Mrs. Rosenberg had not yet died (her heart was still beating). Three courses of electrocution were ultimately applied, and at conclusion eyewitnesses reported, Bob Considine among them, a grisly scene with smoke rising from her head in the chamber.

[Link (http://books.google.com/books?id=8g6JU4hTJ2AC&pg=PA351&dq=Bob+Considine+Rosenberg+execution&cd=1#v=onepage&q=Bob%20Considine%20Rosenberg%20execution&f=false)

Sam Lord
19-06-2010, 06:54 PM
Final letter to their Children. Read it and weep.

----------------------------------------------------------

Dearest Sweethearts, my most precious children,

Only this morning it looked like we might be together again after all. Now that this cannot be, I want so much for you to know all that I have come to know. Unfortunately, I may write only a few simple words; the rest your own lives must teach you, even as mine taught me.

At first, of course, you will grieve bitterly for us, but you will not grieve alone. That is our consolation and it must eventually be yours.

Eventually, too you must come to believe that life is worth the living. Be comforted that even now, with the end of ours slowly approaching, that we know this with a conviction that defeats the executioner!

Your lives must teach you, too, that good cannot flourish in the midst of evil; that freedom and all the things that go to make up a truly satisfying and worthwhile life, must sometime be purchased very dearly. Be comforted then that we were serene and understood with the deepest kind of understanding, that civilization had not as yet progressed to the point where life did not have to be lost for the sake of life; and that we were comforted in the sure knowledge that others would carry on after us.

We wish we might have had the tremendous joy and gratification of living our lives out with you. Your Daddy who is with me in the last momentous hours, sends his heart and all the love that is in it for his dearest boys. Always remember that we were innocent and could not wrong our conscience.

We press you close and kiss you with all our strength.

Lovingly,

Daddy and Mommy

Julie Ethel

P.S. to Manny: The Ten Commandments religious medal and chain and my wedding ring--I wish you to present to our children as a token of our undying love.

P.S.--to Manny

Please be certain to give my best wishes to _________. Tell him I love and honor him with all my heart-- Tell him I want him to know that I feel he shares my triumph-- For I have no fear and no regrets-- Only that the release from the trap was not completely effectuated and the qualities I possessed could not expand to their fullest capacities-- I want him to have the pleasure of knowing how much he meant to me, how much he did to help me grow up-- All our love to all our dear ones.

Love you so much--

Ethel

Derelict
21-06-2010, 12:27 AM
On this day in 1953, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were convicted of conspiring to pass U.S. atomic secrets to the Soviets, are executed at Sing Sing Prison in Ossining, New York. Both refused to admit any wrongdoing and proclaimed their innocence right up to the time of their deaths, by the electric chair. The Rosenbergs were the first U.S. citizens to be convicted and executed for espionage during peacetime ...

That's a bit misleading, Andrew.

The Rosenbergs were guilty, but for reasons of National Security the US didn't want to disclose all it knew (cypher decrypts et al).

And it wasn't a particularly peaceful peacetime - the US was at war with China and North Korea.

Fermoy
24-06-2010, 03:37 AM
The 'Cold War' can hardly be lumped in with actual real Hot Wars can it ?

Derelict
25-06-2010, 02:00 AM
The 'Cold War' can hardly be lumped in with actual real Hot Wars can it ?
as
A few years subsequently I was soldiering with a fair number of fellows that had fought in Korea. It was certainly cold there, but the fighting itself had been hot enough for them.

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 04:20 AM
as
A few years subsequently I was soldiering with a fair number of fellows that had fought in Korea. It was certainly cold there, but the fighting itself had been hot enough for them.
Ah , the Korean non war .
That still did not make the cold war a war .
Nor did it justify the macarthist use of the media to present the 'evidence' , to both the court and the public , that was used to convict the Rosenbergs

StewieG
25-06-2010, 04:50 AM
Ah , the Korean non war .
That still did not make the cold war a war .
Nor did it justify the macarthist use of the media to present the 'evidence' , to both the court and the public , that was used to convict the Rosenbergs

The Korean war was a real and brutal war , tho it was, according to the UN 'a police action' ,whatever that means !

As for the Rosenbergs . I agree , it was a cynical political murder by the US of A .

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 05:30 AM
What made the Rosenberg case so unique? The defendants were executed for crimes they were convicted of in the media, but not by a jury in the courtroom. The trial took place at the height of McCarthyism and anti-communist hysteria and paranoia. For eight months after their arrests, the Rosenbergs were being blamed by the FBI and throughout the media with having caused the United States' undeclared war then raging in Korea. It was claimed that they did this by having stolen and transmitted the A-bomb secret to the Soviets. A majority of Americans uncritically accepted these false allegations and clamored for the harsh punishment of these "communist traitors".
When the trial began the public was under the impression that the defendants were being tried for atomic espionage and treason (http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/docconstitution.html#treason), a capital offense. However, neither of these crimes was charged at the trial. The indictment was only for conspiring to commit espionage, not for passing any classified material. And definitely not for treason. http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/ejw.jpg (http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/e&j1951x.jpg)
The press and the public could have no idea of what the real charges were, based upon the opening statement of chief prosecutor Irving Saypol: "The evidence of the treasonable acts of these three defendants you will find overwhelming . . ." And Judge Kaufman, in his sentencing statement (http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/cortkaufman.html), delivered seven days after the trial ended, justified the death penalty by saying that the Rosenbergs "put the A-bomb into the hands of the Russians", were guilty of causing the war in Korea and "treason". The wrongful charges made in the media were perpetuated both during and after the trial. This explains the acceptance by Americans of the outrageous sentences imposed in this case. Even to this day the Rosenbergs are mistakenly thought of by most Americans to be "atom spies" who were convicted of treason.


The US of the A list of Evil

Sam Lord
25-06-2010, 06:00 AM
While it appears that Julius was involved in passing nuclear weapon secrets to the USSR there has never been any real evidence produced with regard to Ethel. His actions would not have been out of line with the thinking of many scientists and intellectual at that time that for the USA alone to possess the weapon posed a tremendous danger to humanity.

I found the most striking part of the final letter to be:

"Your lives must teach you, too, that good cannot flourish in the midst of evil; that freedom and all the things that go to make up a truly satisfying and worthwhile life, must sometime be purchased very dearly. Be comforted then that we were serene and understood with the deepest kind of understanding, that civilization had not as yet progressed to the point where life did not have to be lost for the sake of life; and that we were comforted in the sure knowledge that others would carry on after us."

I have not studied the case but I find it odd that they were selected for execution when so many others involved in the same activities were given prison sentences. This, for example, is Morton Sobell (on the left) visiting East Germany in 1976. He was convicted along with Julius Rosenberg and given a thirty year sentence of which he served 17 odd.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R0419-028%2C_Sobell%2C_Perlin%2C_Meeropol%2C_Loeser.jpg/300px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R0419-028%2C_Sobell%2C_Perlin%2C_Meeropol%2C_Loeser.jpg

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 06:12 AM
JUDGE KAUFMAN'S STATEMENT UPON
SENTENCING THE ROSENBERGS
SEVEN DAYS AFTER THE TRIAL*
http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/cortkaufman.html (mhtml:{38246AE8-5B0C-4732-91AE-D82D4B13905F}mid://00000029/!x-usc:http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/cortkaufman.html)



*NCRRC Note: we have emphasized "7 days after the trial" to confirm the point that the Rosenbergs had no opportunity to reply to Judge Kaufman's false charges. These charges came after the trial was over. The Rosenbergs were thus denied the fundamental right of confrontation, to be apprised of charges and afforded the opportunity to reply in a court of law. A right guaranteed by all democratic countries.

And thats' justice from the 'world's policeman '

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 06:29 AM
Rosenberg evidence kept secret
The couple pleaded their total innocence until the very end

A New York judge has ruled against releasing secret testimony from the spy trial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
The couple were convicted of passing nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union and executed by electric chair in 1953.
Campaigners have sought to challenge the evidence used to convict Ethel Rosenberg after a key witness admitted he fabricated details....
...Some scholars have been asking for the release of the secret grand jury testimony - particularly evidence from a key prosecution witness - Ethel's younger brother David Greenglass....
..... now 86, admitted in interviews for a book published in 2000 that he gave false testimony under pressure from prosecutors. He has however asked for his testimony to remain secret.
Mr Greenglass, a convicted spy, was spared execution for giving a testimony against his sister and spent 10 years in prison....
...In his ruling on Tuesday US District Judge Alvin Hellerstein said the public's right to know was outweighed by the tradition of grand jury secrecy........
http://news.bb..c.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7520701.stm (mhtml:{38246AE8-5B0C-4732-91AE-D82D4B13905F}mid://00000027/!x-usc:http://news.bb..c.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7520701.stm)
(mhtml:{38246AE8-5B0C-4732-91AE-D82D4B13905F}mid://00000027/!x-usc:http://news.bb..c.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7520701.stm)

Its' a wonder that that man has retained his sanity

C. Flower
25-06-2010, 10:05 AM
Its' a wonder that that man has retained his sanity

Perhaps the question now (I assume that they did pass secrets information on nuclear weapons) whether it was or was not a good thing that they did so.

It seems likely that the USSR would have cracked the science sooner or later, but the US learned from the Nazi scientists who started this off and were able to use nuclear bombs against civilian populations in Japan.

If the USSR hadn't had nuclear weapons too it seems to me highly likely that the US would have used them again (and/or would have threatened to use them) and that rather than the frightening and dangerous "Mutually Assured Destruction" era we would have had an era of total military, economic and political dominance by the US.

I think they did the right thing, although without being able to look into the future, its a hard call.

Nuclear war remains a much bigger danger to our species that climate change, and is hardly mentioned at all.

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 10:34 AM
Perhaps the question now (I assume that they did pass secrets information on nuclear weapons) whether it was or was not a good thing that they did so.

There was no evidence at all presented in court of the crime for which they were charged .

They were murdered
The Rosenbergs were sentenced for crimes for which that they were not tried. They were neither tried nor convicted of treason
or any form of espionage.
In effect the Rosenbergs were denied the right of confrontation, (a right guaranteed throughout the democratic, non-totalitarian world). This right guarantees that a defendant will be confronted with the charges against him (http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/docconstitution.html#sixth) and will be given the opportunity to reply in a court of law! Kaufman's charges were first voiced seven days after the trial had ended. The defendants never had an opportunity to reply.http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/ej1q.jpg (http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/e&j1951x.jpg)
The Trial Record shows that Judge Kaufman made it clear to the jurors that the charge against the defendants was only for conspiring to commit espionage, and not for passing classified material.

http://www.rosenbergtrial.org/casetxt.html#mis sentence

Sam Lord
25-06-2010, 01:27 PM
Perhaps the question now (I assume that they did pass secrets information on nuclear weapons) whether it was or was not a good thing that they did so.

It seems likely that the USSR would have cracked the science sooner or later, but the US learned from the Nazi scientists who started this off and were able to use nuclear bombs against civilian populations in Japan.

If the USSR hadn't had nuclear weapons too it seems to me highly likely that the US would have used them again (and/or would have threatened to use them) and that rather than the frightening and dangerous "Mutually Assured Destruction" era we would have had an era of total military, economic and political dominance by the US.

I think they did the right thing, although without being able to look into the future, its a hard call.

Nuclear war remains a much bigger danger to our species that climate change, and is hardly mentioned at all.

I too think the right thing was done by many scientists in this matter but it is unclear that Ethel had any involvement at all. The execution of an innocent person by the state is a serious matter. It may be even worse in that the State knew that she had no particular involvement and only charged her to put pressure on the husband to break and give up names in exchange for a deal. I believe that it was concern over his wife, for example, that caused her brother to testify (falsely as he later admitted) against her.

I believe that late in life Morton Sobell admitted his role and implicated Julius but I am open to correction on this.

Something interesting about the Sobell case is that he had fled to Mexico to avoid arrest but was seized one night by armed and masked men and delivered to the US border!

The information passed on by these people was of no assistance to the Soviet Union in building the bomb. Much more significant assistance had already been provided by others within the US scientific community.

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 01:49 PM
Treason is the worst crime.

Virtually all countries exact the most severe penalties.

Derelict
25-06-2010, 02:02 PM
Treason is the worst crime.

Virtually all countries exact the most severe penalties.

For once I am in agreement with you.

C. Flower
25-06-2010, 02:05 PM
The death penalty is a ghastly act of brutality and to execute both parents of two young children particularly horrific.

Iolo
25-06-2010, 02:19 PM
Treason is the worst crime.

Why? I can think of hundreds worse, like, as CF says, deliberately killing the parents of small children for political reasons.


Virtually all countries exact the most severe penalties.

So do virtually all gangsters if their subordinates get out of line. What of it?

Sam Lord
25-06-2010, 02:23 PM
Treason is the worst crime.

Virtually all countries exact the most severe penalties.

In this case they were not convicted of treason ... not even charged with it to my knowledge.

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 02:36 PM
In this case they were not convicted of treason ... not even charged with it to my knowledge.
Yep , yer right there
The conviction , the trial and the charge were three totally unconnected 'things' in law ( and I use the word law in an extremely loose sense ) .

In short , the trial was a farce

Derelict
25-06-2010, 02:38 PM
In this case they were not convicted of treason ... not even charged with it to my knowledge.

The Rosenbergs were American citizens giving aid and comfort to a Russian espionage enterprise.

By and large I am against the Death Penalty, but I believe that it should be retained for treason and for 'Economic Sabotage' (political corruption).

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 02:49 PM
The Rosenbergs were American citizens giving aid and comfort to a Russian espionage enterprise.



Do you have proof of that ?
If you do , there are many people the world over who are interested in viewing it .
Please post it here so that we can see it also

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 02:57 PM
The death penalty is a ghastly act of brutality and to execute both parents of two young children particularly horrific.

So its ok for someone to betray their country leading to the possible slaughter of thousands and then be allowed to live :rolleyes:

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 03:02 PM
So its ok for someone to betray their country leading to the possible slaughter of thousands and then be allowed to live :rolleyes:

Who is the someone that you are referring to ?

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 03:07 PM
Why? I can think of hundreds worse, like, as CF says, deliberately killing the parents of small children for political reasons.



The traitor places the lives of their countrymen/women in peril.

During time of war this is akin to the attempted murder of your countrymen/women who are fighting for thier lives.

The actions of the traitor can and have led to the deaths of thousands.




So do virtually all gangsters if their subordinates get out of line.

The state is a valid legal entity and is morally entitled to take life in its defence.

Iolo is unable to distinguish between gangsters and the state:rolleyes:


What of it?

Confused Iolo:confused: claims to be indifferent yet takes the wrong side:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 03:13 PM
Who is the someone that you are referring to ?

Who do think.?:rolleyes:
I would expect a poster on the thread to at least be familiar with the subject matter of the thread.

Wake up Fermoy......

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 03:15 PM
The death penalty is a ghastly act of brutality and to execute both parents of two young children particularly horrific.

The death penalty is an act of mercy for those convicted of serious crimes like premeditated murder & treason.

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 03:21 PM
Ah , the Korean non war .
That still did not make the cold war a war .
Nor did it justify the macarthist use of the media to present the 'evidence' , to both the court and the public , that was used to convict the Rosenbergs

The cold war was a war in every sense of the word bar the outbreak of mass hostilities.
Korea,Vietnam were expressions of it.

The Cuba crisis could very easily have gone wrong in which case millions would have died in a nuclear holocaust.

Poster Fermoy ignores all this in his pathetic effort to advance his left wing victim agenda.

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 03:22 PM
Who do think.?:rolleyes:
I would expect a poster on the thread to at least be familiar with the subject matter of the thread.

Wake up Fermoy......
'Tis you who need to wake up field marshal , you have posted on the wrong thread .

This thread is about Julius and Ethel Rosenberg .
Neither of them have ever been tried or convicted for treason .

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 03:43 PM
The cold war was a war in every sense of the word bar the outbreak of mass hostilities.
Korea,Vietnam were expressions of it.

The Cuba crisis could very easily have gone wrong in which case millions would have died in a nuclear holocaust.

Poster Fermoy ignores all this in his pathetic effort to advance his left wing victim agenda.
What left wing agenda is that ?
Concern for the injustices of the world is not a political agenda.

The so called cold war was not an actual war , which is what the one who raised the issue of a cold war was claiming .

Lapsedmethodist
25-06-2010, 03:49 PM
Do you have proof of that ?
If you do , there are many people the world over who are interested in viewing it .
Please post it here so that we can see it also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Meeropol

In 2008 Michael Meeropol and Robert Meeropol stated that they now considered as a fact something they had long acknowledged as a possibility: that their father was involved in espionage with the Soviet Union. However, they continued to maintain that "To this day, there is no credible evidence that he participated in obtaining or passing on… the secret of the atomic bomb, the crime for which he was executed."[1]

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 03:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Meeropol

In 2008 Michael Meeropol and Robert Meeropol stated that they now considered as a fact something they had long acknowledged as a possibility: that their father was involved in espionage with the Soviet Union. However, they continued to maintain that "To this day, there is no credible evidence that he participated in obtaining or passing on… the secret of the atomic bomb, the crime for which he was executed."[1]
Have they published the evidence ?

Derelict
25-06-2010, 03:56 PM
The so called cold war was not an actual war The US Death Toll in the Korean War was 36,940 (source Wiki).

Lapsedmethodist
25-06-2010, 04:00 PM
Have they published the evidence ?

In the form of an auto-biography. They also were part of a documentary where they admitted that evidence exists. Don't ask for a link, because I only remember the doc., not what it was called. It's presumptious to assume that they make an admission without evidence.

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 04:03 PM
The US Death Toll in the Korean War was 36,940 (source Wiki).
Your point ?

Lapsedmethodist
25-06-2010, 04:05 PM
http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/venona.htm

The Rosenburgs and their handlers are mentioned here.

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 04:06 PM
In the form of an auto-biography. They also were part of a documentary where they admitted that evidence exists. Don't ask for a link, because I only remember the doc., not what it was called. It's presumptious to assume that they make an admission without evidence.

It is a presumption either way .

If the sons did have any evidence , the campaign organizers could possibly know about it though eh

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 04:08 PM
http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/venona.htm

The Rosenburgs and their handlers are mentioned here.


Thanks :rolleyes:

C. Flower
25-06-2010, 04:09 PM
I don't have a problem with the Rosenbergs spying (if they did), from a moral point of view I have no doubt they were idealistic people. They would have expected punishment if caught I would imagine. I am very much opposed to the death penalty and to witchhunts.

Derelict
25-06-2010, 04:10 PM
Your point ?

There was a war on, whether it was declared or not. The rosenbergs were traitors, and in a time of war.

(And if there hadn't been a trial they'd have been eliminated in some accident, and rightly so. 'If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined'.)

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 04:24 PM
There was a war on, whether it was declared or not. The rosenbergs were traitors, and in a time of war.

(And if there hadn't been a trial they'd have been eliminated in some accident, and rightly so. 'If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined'.)

No declared war , no traitors , no treason charge , no treason trial , no treason evidence , no traitors , a 'treason conviction' , a death sentence carried out , no justice .

Iolo
25-06-2010, 04:50 PM
The traitor places the lives of their countrymen/women in peril.

During time of war this is akin to the attempted murder of your countrymen/women who are fighting for thier lives.

The actions of the traitor can and have led to the deaths of thousands.:

You've got this the wrong way around. If the US (and the UK, by the way) had been left with a monopoly, they would obviously have killed uncounted millions. If this couple did pass the information to the USSR, humanity is hugely their debtor.



The state is a valid legal entity and is morally entitled to take life in its defence.

It certainly says it is entitled to kill, and you seem to agree. On what grounds? The rulers of the state are simply the inheritors of succesful gangsters, after all. Where've you been?

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 05:47 PM
'Tis you who need to wake up field marshal , you have posted on the wrong thread .

This thread is about Julius and Ethel Rosenberg .
Neither of them have ever been tried or convicted for treason .

I never said they were.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


They were convicted for conspiracy to commit espionage.

Espionage ,or conspiracy to commit such, is a treasonous act normally and deservedly punishable by death.

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 06:01 PM
You've got this the wrong way around. If the US (and the UK, by the way) had been left with a monopoly, they would obviously have killed uncounted millions. If this couple did pass the information to the USSR, humanity is hugely their debtor.

Absurd viewpoint with no historical precedent whatever to support it.





It certainly says it is entitled to kill, and you seem to agree. On what grounds? The rulers of the state are simply the inheritors of succesful gangsters, after all. Where've you been?

The state is the supreme authority in the land.

Only anarchists & gangsters dispute that.

As the supreme authority the state has the right & duty to protect its citizens.

This involves killing the enemies who threaten the states existence.

Sometimes those enemies are domestic and they too have to be killed.


Its all very simple really, its no big argument .


..

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 06:01 PM
I never said they were.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


They were convicted for conspiracy to commit espionage.


No , they were not .
Have you actually read the judge's sentencing statement ?

This whole thread is about two people who were convicted and executed for treason , despite the fact that they were not charged or put on trial for treason .

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 06:15 PM
No , they were not .
Have you actually read the judge's sentencing statement ?

This whole thread is about two people who were convicted and executed for treason , despite the fact that they were not charged or put on trial for treason .

So what?

Julius Rosenberg (May 12, 1918 – June 19, 1953) and Ethel Greenglass Rosenberg (September 28, 1915 – June 19, 1953) were American communists who were executed in 1953 for conspiracy to commit espionage. The charges related to passing information about the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union.

As already stated conspiracy to commit espionage is an act of treason.

Those who engage in such acts in their own country if convicted normally & deservedly receive the death penalty.

I see no reason for a big hullabaloo about the low life Rosenbergs.

Lapsedmethodist
25-06-2010, 06:16 PM
No declared war , no traitors , no treason charge , no treason trial , no treason evidence , no traitors , a 'treason conviction' , a death sentence carried out , no justice .

They were just picked at random then ? One of those " let's pretend the Soviets are spying and let's pretend someone's giving them secrets and let's see what happens " kind of scenarios ?

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 06:25 PM
They were just picked at random then ? One of those " let's pretend the Soviets are spying and let's pretend someone's giving them secrets and let's see what happens " kind of scenarios ?

Fermoy is hung up on the word "Treason"

He thinks its "different" to espionage or conspiracy to commit espionage:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I have tried to explain to Fermoy without success, so far, that conviction for espionage against your country is exactly the same thing as a conviction on the formal charge of treason.

There are posters who continually try to split hairs, unfortunately.:rolleyes:

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 07:01 PM
So what?

Julius Rosenberg (May 12, 1918 – June 19, 1953) and Ethel Greenglass Rosenberg (September 28, 1915 – June 19, 1953) were American communists who were executed in 1953 for conspiracy to commit espionage. The charges related to passing information about the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union.

As already stated conspiracy to commit espionage is an act of treason.

Those who engage in such acts in their own country if convicted normally & deservedly receive the death penalty.

I see no reason for a big hullabaloo about the low life Rosenbergs.



Wrong again


Treason as defined by the United States Constitution
Article III
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 07:06 PM
Fermoy is hung up on the word "Treason"

He thinks its "different" to espionage or conspiracy to commit espionage:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I have tried to explain to Fermoy without success, so far, that conviction for espionage against your country is exactly the same thing as a conviction on the formal charge of treason.

There are posters who continually try to split hairs, unfortunately.:rolleyes:
And still wrong .

Who did the Rosenbergs levy war against ?
Who was the enemy that was given aid and comfort to ?

Sam Lord
25-06-2010, 07:09 PM
I have tried to explain to Fermoy without success, so far, that conviction for espionage against your country is exactly the same thing as a conviction on the formal charge of treason.


Maybe then you could explain to the rest of us why there are two separate charges when they are exactly the same thing.

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 07:26 PM
Wrong again

No right according to the definition you posted yourself

Treason as defined by the United States Constitution
Article III
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

Espionage =Adhering to their enemies Giving aid and comfort to the enemy hence treason.

This is obvious to everybody [except Fermoy]:rolleyes:

Get over it Fermoy and stop the hairsplitting:rolleyes:

..

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 07:34 PM
No right according to the definition you posted yourself

Treason as defined by the United States Constitution
Article III
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

Espionage =Adhering to their enemies Giving aid and comfort to the enemy hence treason.

This is obvious to everybody [except Fermoy]:rolleyes:

Get over it Fermoy and stop the hairsplitting:rolleyes:

..

What war was it and who were the enermy ?
Have you forgotten ?

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 07:34 PM
Maybe then you could explain to the rest of us why there are two separate charges when they are exactly the same thing.



The Rosenbergs [US citizens} were convicted of espionage against the USA, their own country.

This conviction was rightly interpreted as a treasonous act against the country of their birth.

The Rosenbergs were rightly executed for this act.

End of story.

Quibbling over whether it was espionage or treason,the numbers of charges et al is just hair splitting.


The rehabilitation of the Rosenbergs is part of the liberal lefts campaign.
It wont work.

The Field Marshal
25-06-2010, 07:39 PM
What war was it and who were the enermy ?
Have you forgotten ?

The cold war and the enemy was Russia and its communist allies.

Most informed people know that so why are you asking me ?

Dont go on now about declarations of war and more hair splitting baloney.


The Rosenbergs deserved their fate and the world is a better place without them.

Get over it.

Fermoy
25-06-2010, 07:43 PM
The cold war and the enemy was Russia and its communist allies.

Most informed people know that so why are you asking me ?

Dont go on now about declarations of war and more hair splitting baloney.


The Rosenbergs deserved their fate and the world is a better place without them.

Get over it.
There was no Cold War then , nor were Russia or its communist allies enemies of the USA. They were allies of the USA

Iolo
25-06-2010, 08:13 PM
Absurd viewpoint with no historical precedent whatever to support it.

The Americans used the bomb, obviously, and would equally obviously have used it again if the USSR hadn't got it too. I don't know what you mean by 'historical precedent'. Clearly they didn't dare do it again, and all sensible persons know why. Let's be grateful for all who helped the Soviets get information fast.


The state is the supreme authority in the land.

Only anarchists & gangsters dispute that.

As the supreme authority the state has the right & duty to protect its citizens.

This involves killing the enemies who threaten the states existence.

Sometimes those enemies are domestic and they too have to be killed.


Its all very simple really, its no big argument .


..

Don't be so silly and unhistorical. The successful gangsters who grabbed other people's land threaten to kill them if they don't do as they are told, that's all. They do NOT 'protect their citizens' - they get them killed off in wars, throw them out of work and generally treat them like rubbish. The state is run by the central committee of the boss class in the boss class's interest, and they are able to brainwash simpletons to believe this is some big deal. Grow up!

MediaBite
25-06-2010, 10:11 PM
So its ok for someone to betray their country leading to the possible slaughter of thousands and then be allowed to live :rolleyes:


I think you are a tr*ll.

Sam Lord
25-06-2010, 10:26 PM
I think you are a tr*ll.

Certainly dumbing down the site at any rate.

C. Flower
25-06-2010, 10:51 PM
Certainly dumbing down the site at any rate.

When we all agree, then the level of debate will go up no end.;)

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 02:05 PM
There was no Cold War then , nor were Russia or its communist allies enemies of the USA. They were allies of the USA

.:eek::eek::eek:
Not worth replying to.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Fermoy
26-06-2010, 02:08 PM
.:eek::eek::eek:
Not worth replying to.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

A rather ingracious bowing out of the debate , but we will accept of it as an admission of defeat by the field marshal .

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 02:18 PM
The Americans used the bomb, obviously, and would equally obviously have used it again if the USSR hadn't got it too. I don't know what you mean by 'historical precedent'. Clearly they didn't dare do it again, and all sensible persons know why. Let's be grateful for all who helped the Soviets get information fast.

That outcome does not objectively excuse the wrongness in USA law of the Rosenbergs crime.




Don't be so silly and unhistorical. The successful gangsters who grabbed other people's land threaten to kill them if they don't do as they are told, that's all. They do NOT 'protect their citizens' - they get them killed off in wars, throw them out of work and generally treat them like rubbish. The state is run by the central committee of the boss class in the boss class's interest, and they are able to brainwash simpletons to believe this is some big deal. Grow up!

Have you ever heard of Democracy Iolo?
Its been on the go for a while and you should study it.
Many little children in Marxist China and untill recently in Marxist Russia had never heard of it.
Are you from one of these countries?

The Boss classes there liquidated millions of their own people who just disagreed with their tyranny.

I live in Ireland Iolo and we can change our political bosses when we dont like what they do.

If our bosses go to war we support them and we all will be truly delighted and gladdened when our armies kill our foes domestic and foreign during these wars.

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 02:22 PM
A rather ingracious bowing out of the debate , but we will accept of it as an admission of defeat by the field marshal .

More madness:eek:
Will it ever end.

Fermoy
26-06-2010, 02:27 PM
More madness:eek:
Will it ever end.
Not until you leave for good and take your insanity with you .

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 02:30 PM
The 'Cold War' can hardly be lumped in with actual real Hot Wars can it ?

Only the clinically insane and truly deluded believe that 2 countries would spend billions & billions over 40 years on defense costs to protect themselves from a non existent threat:rolleyes:

Only the truly simple minded believe that war must consist of actual combat.

Finally only the galactically stupid believe that the USA % Russia were allies during the cold war period.

Iolo
26-06-2010, 02:31 PM
That outcome does not objectively excuse the wrongness in USA law of the Rosenbergs crime.

Like the 'wrongness' under Al Capone of secretly working for some other gangster. Bang bang! So much for your law.


Have you ever heard of Democracy Iolo? Its been on the go for a while and you should study it.

It would be an excellent plan, certainly. Who controls all the media and all the money though, Field Marshal? What democracy have you ever seen?


Many little children in Marxist China and untill recently in Marxist Russia had never heard of it.
Are you from one of these countries? .

Oh yes: We have a wonderful democracy now under Comrade Putin! What larks! And when was Russia Marxist, by the way? We used to pride ourselves on our State capitalism.


The Boss classes there liquidated millions of their own people who just disagreed with their tyranny.

Ever heard of the famine in Ireland, Field Marshal, or the fine way the Tasmanians were brought to civilisation? Wake up man! Boss classes KILL.


I live in Ireland Iolo and we can change our political bosses when we dont like what they do..

There's nice! What d'you change them FOR then - Guinness? They are all the same gang, wearing different masks, man!


If our bosses go to war we support them and we all will be truly delighted and gladdened when our armies kill our foes domestic and foreign during these wars.

Aye: I was on the biggest demo ever seen in Britain, so Bliar didn't invade Iraq, did he? Sober up! Those who supported Ghengiz Khan doubtless thought he was a fine democrat too. You are living in a funny old world. Do they let you out on Saturdays to shoot the odd peasant?

Fermoy
26-06-2010, 02:33 PM
Finally only the galactically stupid believe that the USA % Russia were allies during the cold war period.
Interesting comment .
Who has claimed that on this thread ?

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 02:42 PM
Interesting comment .
Who has claimed that on this thread ?


You did Fermoy

I note you have deleted it but alas to late.
Your mind numbing incorrectness and complete absence of historical knowledge is on display for all to see.

See my post no 61 reproduced below.

Originally Posted by Fermoy
There was no Cold War then , nor were Russia or its communist allies enemies of the USA. They were allies of the USA

Fermoy
26-06-2010, 02:47 PM
You did Fermoy

Originally Posted by Fermoy
There was no Cold War then , nor were Russia or its communist allies enemies of the USA. They were allies of the USA


And what do you think that that has that got to do with the events that lead to the arrest, trial , conviction , and murder of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg ?

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 02:49 PM
I think you are a tr*ll.

You are just another bullying type abuser who abuses other posters without giving any reasons.

Fermoy
26-06-2010, 02:50 PM
You did Fermoy

I note you have deleted it but alas to late.
Your mind numbing incorrectness and complete absence of historical knowledge is on display for all to see.

See my post no 61 reproduced below.

Originally Posted by Fermoy
There was no Cold War then , nor were Russia or its communist allies enemies of the USA. They were allies of the USA
And now you lie eh field marshal . Straw is not enough huh , lies too. ?
I have not gone back up the thread to a previous post and deleted anything .
What do you lie ?

Fermoy
26-06-2010, 02:51 PM
You are just another bullying type abuser who abuses other posters without giving any reasons.

:D:D:D thats rich :D:D:D

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 02:54 PM
And what do you think that that has that got to do the events that lead to the arrest, trial , conviction , and murder of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg ?

The Rosenbergs were legally executed not murdered.

If Fermoy you wish to keep up this silly pretense that you are engaging in rational debate yet distort the meaning of words and history to suit your personal agenda to rehabilitate the Rosenbergs I for one am not prepared to engage further with you.

Cop yourself on and get real :rolleyes:

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 03:01 PM
To other posters

Fermoy is a TR0LL

I have encountered him on other fora.

Do not feed him just put him on ignore

Fermoy
26-06-2010, 03:07 PM
The Rosenbergs were legally executed not murdered.

If Fermoy you wish to keep up this silly pretense that you are engaging in rational debate yet distort the meaning of words and history to suit your personal agenda to rehabilitate the Rosenbergs I for one am not prepared to engage further with you.

Cop yourself on and get real :rolleyes:

All that because you cannot formulate an answer in reply to this


You did Fermoy

Originally Posted by Fermoy
There was no Cold War then , nor were Russia or its communist allies enemies of the USA. They were allies of the USA


And what do you think that that has that got to do with the events that lead to the arrest, trial , conviction , and murder of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg ?

If that is too hard for you , (which it certainly appears to be) , just post the time frame for the events that I mention in the question .
PS . A wee hint , the question is the one typed in like this

The Field Marshal
26-06-2010, 03:15 PM
I don't have a problem with the Rosenbergs spying (if they did), from a moral point of view I have no doubt they were idealistic people.

So because people are moral and idealistic you dont see any problem in them selling or giving away their countries defense secrets to the enemy.?:eek:




They would have expected punishment if caught I would imagine. I am very much opposed to the death penalty and to witchhunts.

If a USA nuclear scientist from an ideological & moral point of view converts to Islam and decides to help Al Qeeda construct a nuclear bomb which detonates in London killing 2 million people.
Is that OK ?

If he is then convicted of the crime of 2 million murders then he should of course be allowed spend the rest of his days being cared for at taxpayers expense in jail:rolleyes: