Proud to be Irish, or am I?

[Lifeisagame]

Our Bankers got into trouble, so because they were FF budies we bailed them ot with taxpayers money
The Developers got into trouble, no problem your FF, so we bailed them out with taxpayers money.

The citizens got into trouble, go fxxk yourself FF Gov has no money

We buy Anglo and they refuse to let the New Owners, us, see their papers.

We buy EBS and they say if you do not live in certain areas you can sod off if you think we are lending you money.

Wonderful to be Irish or is it anymore?

[Lifeisagame]

Well at least we had Summer last week.:D

[BrendanGalway]

Its not a great time in this Nations history but I'll bet we are still proud to be Irish. Or else we wouldnt be taking the time to post so often on a Political Forum about whats gone wrong and how we can fix it. Its still our Home at the end of the day.

Most, if not all of us on this site were born into it and most of us still live here. If we had no connection to the place, we could just make plans to move to a better country. If its just Corruption that gets on our wick, we would talk about Silvio Berlusconi all day.

Whats happening here is not the doing of the Irish people. We were never asked to sign-off on this Transfer of Wealth. We were told to accept it and shut-up. This has a lot of folks angry. They are angry because there is still some pride left in them, too much to accept this lying down. Theres still a lot of things that make this a Nation worth living in. Therefore its a place worth fighting for.

[C. Flower]

Strange thing, but I'd say the Gaza flotilla people made some of us feel that the country hasn't lost all reason for self-respect.

[ang]

I am proud to be Irish but I have no pride in the people who led us on this dangerous course.

[Slim Buddha]

I am proud to be Irish but I have no pride in the people who led us on this dangerous course.

I would go a bit further, ang, and say that , while there is much to be proud of in our common nationality, I have nothing but the most bilious contempt for those in politics, banking, the media and property profiteering who have successfully turned their corruption, gambling misfortunes, incompetence, arrogance and stupidity into penury for everybody else.

[StewieG]

No reason to be particularly proud . Just born here by random chance . Reasonably glad I was to be honest . Not proud though .

[Andrew49]

The ideal Ireland that we now have. The Ireland that we dreamed of. A home of a people who now know the value of material wealth. A people who will now have to be satisfied with very frugal comfort, devoting their leisure to the things of the spirit and the odd pint of Guinness if they can get a loan for it. A land whose countryside will not be bright with cosy homesteads, and whose fields and villages will no longer ring joyous with the sounds of industry, nor with the romping of sturdy children, or the contest of athletic youths or the laughter of happy maidens, and whose firesides are now the forums for cribbing and moaning.

Ireland, in short, is now a country whose people are living the life that Fianna Fail always desired that men, women and children should live.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Thats pretty much it. We never had a Republic or a democracy. The Gombeens got home rule is what happened.

[Andrew49]

At least we're moving up the measles table. We've only Bulgaria to beat and if Fianna Fail can hang on in power for another year I predict that we'll be on top of the measles table next year. After all we generally beat those east-European countries - after a penalty shoot-out of course. Source (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0607/1224272004407.html)

Already we are NUMERO UNO on a list to do with employment by Forbes - LINK (http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/23/worst-countries-jobs-lifestyle-unemployment-rate-rising_slide_11.html) - in 2009 we were only runners-up! So there's the evidence that Fianna Fail are ploughing a steady unchanging course.

On the Knowledge Economy (Broadband tab) were are outscoring Mongolia. Link (http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/irelandbroadband001/) Before that we were under severe pressure from Soweto. Another feather in the cap for Fianna Fail.

In the alcohol stakes we're also way out ahead: Link (http://live.kyero.com/2010/04/22/spain-worst-countries-in-europe-alcohol-abuse/) But we have our work cut out as Romania, Germany and Austria are dogging our heels ... !

[TaxationIsTheft]

If libertarian views ever go mainstream, it will be possible to be irish but not be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. Sovereign communities where people govern themselves, like the cantons of Switzerland will be very much better places to live.

People should be able to set up new states as easily as setting up a company. States would then compete for citizens. The best governed states would prosper while the poorly adminstered ones would wither and die.

[Slim Buddha]

At least we're moving up the measles table. We've only Bulgaria to beat and if Fianna Fail can hang on in power for another year I predict that we'll be on top of the measles table next year. After all we generally beat those east-European countries - after a penalty shoot-out of course. Source (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0607/1224272004407.html)

Already we are NUMERO UNO on a list to do with employment by Forbes - LINK (http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/23/worst-countries-jobs-lifestyle-unemployment-rate-rising_slide_11.html) - in 2009 we were only runners-up! So there's the evidence that Fianna Fail are ploughing a steady unchanging course.

On the Knowledge Economy (Broadband tab) were are outscoring Mongolia. Link (http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/irelandbroadband001/) Before that we were under severe pressure from Soweto. Another feather in the cap for Fianna Fail.

In the alcohol stakes we're also way out ahead: Link (http://live.kyero.com/2010/04/22/spain-worst-countries-in-europe-alcohol-abuse/) But we have our work cut out as Romania, Germany and Austria are dogging our heels ... !


"A lot done - More to Do!"

[Lifeisagame]

If libertarian views ever go mainstream, it will be possible to be irish but not be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. Sovereign communities where people govern themselves, like the cantons of Switzerland will be very much better places to live.

People should be able to set up new states as easily as setting up a company. States would then compete for citizens. The best governed states would prosper while the poorly adminstered ones would wither and die.
You Really have to grow up and stop putting yourself up for ass holes like me to blow you away. These people are talking Reality, not some hairbrained hybrid country. Get real, you have the brains put them to use.

[Lifeisagame]

"A lot done - More to Do!"
Oh Dear I thought I was good to go at 65, now 66 give us a break please:D

Just to clarify, I will be Proud to be an Irishman to my last breath.

[TaxationIsTheft]

You Really have to grow up and stop putting yourself up for ass holes like me to blow you away. These people are talking Reality, not some hairbrained hybrid country. Get realGo ahead, blow my "hairbrained" idea away.

Many countries (like Germany) are federations of states. The 26 cantons of Switzerland all set their own tax rates and fiscal policy. Theres no reason to call such schemes "hairbrained".

I dont want to pay my tax to a Fianna Fail government, nor to a Labour or Sinn Fein government. I only want to pay taxes when I see value for money or I have some control over where those taxes go. That means direct democracy.

[C. Flower]

Go ahead, blow my "hairbrained" idea away.

Many countries (like Germany) are federations of states. The 26 cantons of Switzerland all set their own tax rates and fiscal policy. Theres no reason to call such schemes "hairbrained".

I dont want to pay my tax to a Fianna Fail government, nor to a Labour or Sinn Fein government. I only want to pay taxes when I see value for money or I have some control over where those taxes go. That means direct democracy.

Would you be in favour of the Socialist Party's proposal for a federation of the British Isles ?

[TaxationIsTheft]

Would you be in favour of the Socialist Party's proposal for a federation of the British Isles ?I havent read it. But it would be unlikely that I would favour it, because the Socialist party have absolutely zero credibility with me. But feel free to pitch it to me, if you want.

[C. Flower]

I havent read it. But it would be unlikely that I would favour it, because the Socialist party have absolutely zero credibility with me. But feel free to pitch it to me, if you want.

I think this thread discusses it -


http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=1253


I don't know if its a detailed policy, or an aspiration. Of course, they would want it to be a socialist federation.

Ireland is surely already too small and subdivided to be worth dividing any further ?

[Slim Buddha]

Go ahead, blow my "hairbrained" idea away.

Many countries (like Germany) are federations of states. The 26 cantons of Switzerland all set their own tax rates and fiscal policy. Theres no reason to call such schemes "hairbrained".

I dont want to pay my tax to a Fianna Fail government, nor to a Labour or Sinn Fein government. I only want to pay taxes when I see value for money or I have some control over where those taxes go. That means direct democracy.

In that case, why not devolve enterprise policy to the county councils, limit by constitutional means the amount of tax central government can obtain, allocate tax collection and all corporation tax above 8%, which is earmarked for central government, to the county councils and make the county councils much more representativce and much more accountable?

[TaxationIsTheft]

In that case, why not devolve enterprise policy to the county councils, limit by constitutional means the amount of tax central government can obtain, allocate tax collection and all corporation tax above 8%, which is earmarked for central government, to the county councils and make the county councils much more representativce and much more accountable?Those are good ideas. Id agree with most of them. The most exciting one being the constitutional limitation on taxation by central government.

[Lifeisagame]

I havent read it. But it would be unlikely that I would favour it, because the Socialist party have absolutely zero credibility with me. But feel free to pitch it to me, if you want.
So lt us get this straight, You have Not read it but You have no real reason to disagree with it other that it says Socialist. Is that Correct?
No please enlighten us as to what You would do with Ireland?
Executive Summary will do.

[C. Flower]

In that case, why not devolve enterprise policy to the county councils, limit by constitutional means the amount of tax central government can obtain, allocate tax collection and all corporation tax above 8%, which is earmarked for central government, to the county councils and make the county councils much more representativce and much more accountable?

What kind of populations do the Cantons have ? Some Irish County Council areas only have populations of a couple of hundred thousand.

[TaxationIsTheft]

Ireland is surely already too small and subdivided to be worth dividing any further ?Fair point. You might think so. But I noticed in the USA and the UK, that the property tax or council tax is determined locally. And voters can vote for councillors that reduce their property tax or use the tax proceeds wisely, and vote out councillors that raise the tax and waste the proceeds. The point is the voters are in control. Badly run county councils lose residents and go bankrupt in the USA.

Eight out of 26 swiss cantons have less than 100,000 people in them and they still have the capability to manage their fiscal and taxation affairs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cantons

To be honest, I havent really firmed up my own ideas on how we do these things in Ireland, but I know for sure that the voters need more direct control over their taxes, and a very speedy mechanism for rooting out and eliminating wastage of precious tax money. The present system has none of this.

Id like elected governments or the citizens to be able to dismiss civil servants for poor job performance or corruption. It sickens me that former financial regulator, Pat Neary is taking home an annual pension of six figures, paid for by gouging taxes out of the working poor.

Id like to see the citizens have the right to introduce a motion in the Dail, via a petition, as in Switzerland.

Id like to see the citizens have the right to initiate a constitutional referendum, as in Switzerland.

[TaxationIsTheft]

So lt us get this straight, You have Not read it but You have no real reason to disagree with it other that it says Socialist. Is that Correct?.I thought my answer was pretty straight. I havent read the document so I dont agree or disagree with it. How is that difficult to understand?

[C. Flower]

Fair point. You might think so. But I noticed in the USA and the UK, that the property tax or council tax is determined locally. And voters can vote for councillors that reduce their property tax or use the tax proceeds wisely, and vote out councillors that raise the tax and waste the proceeds. The point is the voters are in control. Badly run county councils lose residents and go bankrupt in the USA.

Eight out of 26 swiss cantons have less than 100,000 people in them and they still have the capability to manage their fiscal and taxation affairs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cantons

To be honest, I havent really firmed up my own ideas on how we do these things in Ireland, but I know for sure that the voters need more direct control over their taxes, and a very speedy mechanism for rooting out and eliminating wastage of precious tax money. The present system has none of this.

Id like elected governments or the citizens to be able to dismiss civil servants for poor job performance or corruption. It sickens me that former financial regulator, Pat Neary is taking home an annual pension of six figures, paid for by gouging taxes out of the working poor.

Id like to see the citizens have the right to introduce a motion in the Dail, via a petition, as in Switzerland.

Id like to see the citizens have the right to initiate a constitutional referendum, as in Switzerland.

Thanks for the link. Some British local authorities have put their budgets up for referendum - Milton Keynes being one, I think. Where people are offered the option of paying a bit more for better health and education services, they're inclined to say yest to it. I think if we had had more citizen control on spending in Ireland we wouldn't have palation greyhound stadiums and slum psychiatric facilities.

I'd be in favour of recall too, particularly where the current government is concerned.

[TaxationIsTheft]

I think if we had had more citizen control on spending in Ireland we wouldn't have palation greyhound stadiums and slum psychiatric facilities.

I'd be in favour of recall too, particularly where the current government is concerned.The first time we agree on something! Thats progress!

[Lifeisagame]

The first time we agree on something! Thats progress!
Sorry to burst the balloon, it does not work for me. England and the US are controlled by a Central Government, Switzerland I have no idea. So are you saying that we have 26 counties and if they cannot hack it they go bankrupt?
Ehh what happens then? I would suspect in Ireland that BIFFO county has zero chance of going bankrupt. What do we do then when we know he is pouring the dosh in?
I think some more thought is needed here, maybe 40-50 years of it.

[C. Flower]

Sorry to burst the balloon, it does not work for me. England and the US are controlled by a Central Government, Switzerland I have no idea. So are you saying that we have 26 counties and if they cannot hack it they go bankrupt?
Ehh what happens then? I would suspect in Ireland that BIFFO county has zero chance of going bankrupt. What do we do then when we know he is pouring the dosh in?
I think some more thought is needed here, maybe 40-50 years of it.


What doesn't work for you ?

[Lifeisagame]

What doesn't work for you ?
Decentralised control of Finance and Taxation in Ireland, we already have that and got NAMA as a result.

[BrendanGalway]

Fair point. You might think so. But I noticed in the USA and the UK, that the property tax or council tax is determined locally. And voters can vote for councillors that reduce their property tax or use the tax proceeds wisely, and vote out councillors that raise the tax and waste the proceeds. The point is the voters are in control. Badly run county councils lose residents and go bankrupt in the USA.

Eight out of 26 swiss cantons have less than 100,000 people in them and they still have the capability to manage their fiscal and taxation affairs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cantons

To be honest, I havent really firmed up my own ideas on how we do these things in Ireland, but I know for sure that the voters need more direct control over their taxes, and a very speedy mechanism for rooting out and eliminating wastage of precious tax money. The present system has none of this.

Id like elected governments or the citizens to be able to dismiss civil servants for poor job performance or corruption. It sickens me that former financial regulator, Pat Neary is taking home an annual pension of six figures, paid for by gouging taxes out of the working poor.

Id like to see the citizens have the right to introduce a motion in the Dail, via a petition, as in Switzerland.

Id like to see the citizens have the right to initiate a constitutional referendum, as in Switzerland.

This is Direct Democracy, a great way of doing things. There would certainly be no NAMA, or Bailouts, if it existed in this country.

You should start a thread on it.

[Lifeisagame]

This is Direct Democracy, a great way of doing things. There would certainly be no NAMA, or Bailouts, if it existed in this country.

You should start a thread on it.
Agreed, but please do not use wikipedia as a sourse, it gets lost after that.

[Slim Buddha]

What kind of populations do the Cantons have ? Some Irish County Council areas only have populations of a couple of hundred thousand.

Same as Appenzell Innerhoden. It s tiny. And conservative. (Universal sufferage for women finally came in 1991). Some cantons are big (Zürich) some are tiny (Appenzell) Taxes vary considerably but the system by design encourages accountability.

[Slim Buddha]

This is Direct Democracy, a great way of doing things. There would certainly be no NAMA, or Bailouts, if it existed in this country.

You should start a thread on it.

UBS got a "bailout" from the Swiss National Bank. But the CHF68 billion they received is being paid back. With interest. So no freebie for the banks here. Mainly becaue it would be impossible to sell to an infuriated public.

[C. Flower]

UBS got a "bailout" from the Swiss National Bank. But the CHF68 billion they received is being paid back. With interest. So no freebie for the banks here. Mainly becaue it would be impossible to sell to an infuriated public.

So we were told here. And then they paid us back....with bank shares:(

[TaxationIsTheft]

UBS got a "bailout" from the Swiss National Bank. But the CHF68 billion they received is being paid back. With interest. So no freebie for the banks here. Mainly becaue it would be impossible to sell to an infuriated public.Also the managers of UBS had to pay back bonuses they had received in the years before the bailout. Has that happened in Ireland? Nope.