Spanish Law for Criminals

[Lifeisagame]

Reviewing the Kinahan arrests it now seems to be almost certain that they could remain in jail for up to two years while the evidence is prepared for court.
This is normal Spanish Law, is it right or is it wrong?
Bear in mind the decision is made by one Judge and no jury.
Does it pre-determine their guilt?
To me, well done Spain.
What is your opinion?

[PaddyJoe]

Not very familiar with the Spanish legal system but as far I know it is based on the Napoleonic code rather than the English Common Law which is the basis for the legal system in these islands. Wasn't there a case in the last couple of years where an Irishman whose wife died after falling from a balcony was held in Spain for almost two years until the resulting trial?

[moss]

Reviewing the Kinahan arrests it now seems to be almost certain that they could remain in jail for up to two years while the evidence is prepared for court.
This is normal Spanish Law, is it right or is it wrong?
Bear in mind the decision is made by one Judge and no jury.
Does it pre-determine their guilt?
To me, well done Spain.
What is your opinion?

Bail in Ireland is also decided by a judge.
It most certainly doesn't pre-determine their guilt otherwise there would be no need for a trial.

To be remanded for 2 years, should it happen, does seem very excessive to me though.

[Lifeisagame]

Bail in Ireland is also decided by a judge.
It most certainly doesn't pre-determine their guilt otherwise there would be no need for a trial.

To be remanded for 2 years, should it happen, does seem very excessive to me though.
I agree with you abou bail.
But 2 years before trial? I do not believe any jury would come up with Not Guilty imo

[moss]

I agree with you abou bail.
But 2 years before trial? I do not believe any jury would come up with Not Guilty imo

If as you say it's standard practice in Spain then surely it should have no bearing on a jury who would be aware of that fact.

[C. Flower]

It commonly happens in Britain too, that people are held on remand for years. To me, it makes a mockery of the idea that you are innocent until proven guilty. Ireland is the other extreme - terrible crimes have been committed by people who are out on bail.

Right balance somewhere in between ?

[moss]

In the 6C if you're a republican we call it internment by remand. Bail is unheard of.
Not so if you aren't charged with republican activities though. Bail is common then.

[People Korps]

Should these merge with the Kinahan thread? which has been running since 25th?

[C. Flower]

Should these merge with the Kinahan thread? which has been running since 25th?

Let's leave it up to Lifeisagame to give a view on. Its an important general issue (bail vs remand) but if he's mainly posting about the Kinahans maybe he'd like it merged ?

[People Korps]

In this case the judge has allowed bail for many including one of the leading lights who the Indo says is Gillgans right hand man Cunningham.

I read on one Spanish site that eg reserving your right to silence was more likely to lead to you being remanded in custody. Foreigners are also more likely to be denied bail.

Refusing Bail an be used as a weapon against suspects, eg if the police arrest wives, girlfriends etc and get them declared suspects it puts a lot of pressure on a family.
Remember they have not even been officially charged, charges will be brought closer to a trial , this is essentially an investigation and suspects can be held while they are investigated.

[Lifeisagame]

Let's leave it up to Lifeisagame to give a view on. Its an important general issue (bail vs remand) but if he's mainly posting about the Kinahans maybe he'd like it merged ?
Thank you for that. The subject of the Thread is Spanish Justice and Kinahan's are just a case in point.
The fact that Spanish Law allows this is, I believe to prevent what they believe are Serious and Potentially Dangerous people to abscond before trial.
Also, it may stop it becoming a haven for our Gangland Leaders.
In Ireland we have also changed or Law to try and reduce Serious Gangland Leaders/Members activities up to and including making them stand Trial and being Jailed if guilty. But, is it enough?

To answer the situation in Northern Ireland and to a Greater degree Guantanamo, I believe Justice was done by knee jerk and not by Law.

Gangland crime is now an extremely serious issue here and needs every piece of Legislation possible to reduce it before the violence spills over fully into the ordinary lives of our citizens, it is bad enough that the drugs have to a massive degree. Keeping known Serious Criminals off the street helps to protect us all.
This is not Political it is pure Criminal

I also have issue with the fact that the vast majority of our Gardai have to deal with the massive influx and use of guns with a simple Baton. Is that a deterrent to any criminal?

[People Korps]

The guards have plenty mobile firepower, they shoot more people than are shot in the force, only one guard shot during the last spate and he lived.

[Lifeisagame]

The guards have plenty mobile firepower, they shoot more people than are shot in the force, only one guard shot during the last spate and he lived.
Sorry PK but that is one too many. Furthermore, if you are going to quote stats then maybe you can also tell us how many criminals escaped because they wave a gun in an unarmed Garda's face?
We are talking about your ordinary Garda here.

[Kev Bar]

Not very familiar with the Spanish legal system but as far I know it is based on the Napoleonic code rather than the English Common Law which is the basis for the legal system in these islands.?

Yep. And the judge investigates as in our friend garazon who did such a good job they Spanish right are out to get him.

But certainly it is one of the things that require protection in an integrated Europe.
The question of extradiction of irish citizens is tricky.

Re the boys in spain...if you can't do the time etc

[C. Flower]

Not tried and convicted yet, innocent until proven guilty.

[Lifeisagame]

Yep. And the judge investigates as in our friend garazon who did such a good job they Spanish right are out to get him.

But certainly it is one of the things that require protection in an integrated Europe.
The question of extradiction of irish citizens is tricky.

Re the boys in spain...if you can't do the time etc
Well they do have the sun, even if they cannot see it.:D

[Vernon]

Slightly off the point but I was in Estepona on holidays, 2008, and witnessed local Mayor and councilors being arrested on corruption charges. No messing there. Police in balaclavas taking them from the Town Hall and away in vans. They stopped me on the road as they did this. A police man with a balaclava and a gun jumping out in front of your car stopping you is a scary experience! Such a pity they wouldn t do the same here. The corruption charges were about land rezoning.
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_17002.shtml

On Youtube too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okzvJrbSmOA

[Lifeisagame]

Slightly off the point but I was in Estepona on holidays, 2008, and witnessed local Mayor and councilors being arrested on corruption charges. No messing there. Police in balaclavas taking them from the Town Hall and away in vans. They stopped me on the road as they did this. A police man with a balaclava and a gun jumping out in front of your car stopping you is a scary experience! Such a pity they wouldn t do the same here. The corruption charges were about land rezoning.
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_17002.shtml

On Youtube too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okzvJrbSmOA
Frightening experience I would agree but there is a time for the Law to show it means something, does it here?

[C. Flower]

Slightly off the point but I was in Estepona on holidays, 2008, and witnessed local Mayor and councilors being arrested on corruption charges. No messing there. Police in balaclavas taking them from the Town Hall and away in vans. They stopped me on the road as they did this. A police man with a balaclava and a gun jumping out in front of your car stopping you is a scary experience! Such a pity they wouldn t do the same here. The corruption charges were about land rezoning.
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_17002.shtml

On Youtube too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okzvJrbSmOA

Very big unfinished block on the sea front. Spain has been even more comprehensively messed up with overdevelopment than Ireland.

Its easy to forget that some people in ireland have gone to jail - Burke, Lawlor, Dunlop, to name three.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=2036

[Lifeisagame]

Very big unfinished block on the sea front. Spain has been even more comprehensively messed up with overdevelopment than Ireland.

Its easy to forget that some people in ireland have gone to jail - Burke, Lawlor, Dunlop, to name three.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=2036
True, but that is like taking a junkie instead of the dealer.

[Fraxinus]

Sorry to go off topic but my cousin is married and living in Japan and my relatives were on about their trip over for the wedding. They were stunned that yu could leave the keys in your car, leave doors unlocked, etc because there is such a low level of crime. Then the subject of an English girl brutally murdered, by a student I think, came up and that the face of the accused was shown on telly every day until he was caught, a year later I think. My relatives asked, when the were over in Japan, what happened to him and the response they got was he would just be never seen again, that they wouldn't even waste money on a trial. I couldn't believe that Japan, with such close links to the west, had such a ruthless justice system...if that is true.

On the subject of the thread and coming down hard on criminals, the fight against gangs has to be two pronged. There is no point bringing in multiple laws unless the underlying problems of why people end up as criminals are dealt with....unless of course you want to go the Japanese route, which would probably have them thinking twice.

[StewieG]

Right balance somewhere in between ?

Indeed.He is likely to abscond so its logical not to give him bail . This dosnt mean Spain has a 'harsher' system , just a more sensible one . Spain incidently has liberal cannabis laws , so they dont 'create' criminals like we do . I for one would like to see our judiciary go in that direction . If our laws were more like Spains , we would have a lot less millionaire gangsters .

[Lifeisagame]

Sorry to go off topic but my cousin is married and living in Japan and my relatives were on about their trip over for the wedding. They were stunned that yu could leave the keys in your car, leave doors unlocked, etc because there is such a low level of crime. Then the subject of an English girl brutally murdered, by a student I think, came up and that the face of the accused was shown on telly every day until he was caught, a year later I think. My relatives asked, when the were over in Japan, what happened to him and the response they got was he would just be never seen again, that they wouldn't even waste money on a trial. I couldn't believe that Japan, with such close links to the west, had such a ruthless justice system...if that is true.

On the subject of the thread and coming down hard on criminals, the fight against gangs has to be two pronged. There is no point bringing in multiple laws unless the underlying problems of why people end up as criminals are dealt with....unless of course you want to go the Japanese route, which would probably have them thinking twice.
There is a normal Judicial system in Japan. So I would assume that by the statement they meant he will be in jail for life. I have been in Japan about 60 times and have seen television news showing the progress of trials for very serious offences.
Furthermore, I have never felt in any way threatened by the Police as they go about their duty. But it is amazing that you see vending machines on even very quiet streets and I have never seen one vandalised.
But the Yakuza(Japanese mafia) are there also and they control the Pachinko Industry (Japanese slot machines) and that is an enormous business.
But in all my visits I found nothing but hospitality. China, now that is a different story.

[Kev Bar]

I know someone who was locked up in Japan. Didnt sound like fun. V brutal in a rigid manner.

[Voodoou]

Guilty until proven innocent? So if they can't prove one is guilty or one is found innocent, do they pay compensation?