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pluralist
16-07-2015, 09:48 PM
http://rs21.org.uk/2015/07/13/understanding-the-corbyn-campaign-an-interview-with-max-shanly/

Binn Beal
21-07-2015, 08:48 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/21/labour-disarray-welfare-48-mps-defy-whips?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

More than three-quarters of the Labour MPs supported the Tory government yesterday in a bill reducing welfare payments. This makes the betrayal of the Labour Party almost complete. The 43 MPs who defied their whip include Jeremy Corbyn who surprisingly may have enough support to win the leadership of the party and reverse the rot but it looks now that the full weight of the establishment will be brought to bear on him.

When Irish Labour signed on with Fine Gael, there were perks and Mercs for the leaders and a sprinkling of quango payolas for the well-connected but British Labour are backing the Tories for free.

Apjp
21-07-2015, 07:31 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11754303/Jeremy-Corbyn-sips-coffee-with-comrades-Gerry-Adams-and-Martin-McGuiness-in-Parliament.html

Just reading up on this fella.

He supports Irish Unity as well.

DCon
21-07-2015, 09:03 PM
Poll just out



YouGov: First preference votes amongst Labour members/supporters
11%: Kendall
20%: Cooper
26% Burnham
43%: Corbyn

Binn Beal
21-07-2015, 10:01 PM
That's a great hatchet job from the Telegraph. If 'Jeremy Corbyn, the hard-line Labour MP' can win the leadership, there may be hope for the British Labour Party after all.

Apjp
21-07-2015, 10:53 PM
That's a great hatchet job from the Telegraph. If 'Jeremy Corbyn, the hard-line Labour MP' can win the leadership, there may be hope for the British Labour Party after all.

He's in the mould of Tony Benn and Clement Atlee.

Exactly what's needed not more 'centrism'.

pluralist
22-07-2015, 12:35 AM
He's in the mould of Tony Benn and Clement Atlee.

Exactly what's needed not more 'centrism'.

Tony Benn was never Labour leader; as for Attlee, he was a social-reformer but also a centrist:


He strongly supported the Cold War against Soviet Communism.


After Stalin took political control of most of Eastern Europe, and began to subvert other governments in the Balkans, Attlee's and Bevin's worst fears of Soviet intentions were realized. The Attlee Government then became instrumental in the creation of the successful NATO defence alliance to protect Western Europe against any Soviet aggression.[125] In a crucial contribution to the economic stability of post-war Europe, Attlee's Cabinet was instrumental in promoting the American Marshall Plan for the economic recovery of Europe.

A group of Labour MPs, organised under the banner of "Keep Left", urged the government to steer a middle way between the two emerging superpowers, and advocated the creation of a "third force" of European powers to stand between the US and USSR. However, deteriorating relations between Britain and the USSR, as well as Britain's economic reliance on America following the Marshall Plan, steered policy towards supporting the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Attlee


Do you think Corbyn can win an election for Labour?

Binn Beal
22-07-2015, 07:51 AM
Do you think Corbyn can win an election for Labour?
I would say he hasn't a snowball's chance in Hell if he continues to reduce the Labour Party to another right-wing, conservative one. He has a chance of reorganising Labour into a party 'fearlessly on the side of the working class and hot to challenge every issue that confronts the weak and vulnerable in society'. If he can persuade even a small section of the 99% to fight back, then he, or rather they, can win.

The Irish Labour Party took the route of adopting their right-wing colleagues' policies in the hope of electability and the result was complete annihilation. This is presumably the fate that awaits British party if any of the other three candidates wins and continues the Torification of Labour.

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 10:16 AM
Do you think Corbyn can win an election for Labour?

The whole "the left can't win" is a Big Lie by the overwhelmingly right-wing corporatist media. We've seen what happens time and again in country after country when the centre-left heed the siren calls and bug-eyed ranting of the far right and "moderate" their position to "the centre" - in reality to positions that 20 years ago would have been seen as far right! The ostensibly centre-left party gets subsumed into the actual right-wing parties. Cos why vote for the plastic copy and wannabe, when you can vote for the real thing, when there's no real policy difference between them? The SNP just showed how a centre-left progressive party can win and win BIG against the combined forces of the right-wing parties and right-wing media.

It's been a 30 year process by the right-wing media of constantly dragging the centre of gravity ever further to the right over time, and the progressive/left keep falling for it. Today's Tories are far more dangerous than Thatcher's mob. Thatcher's mob were at least seen as radicals with strange new ideas. 30 years later the radical extremism of Thatcher's day is now painted as humdrum centrism or even as suspiciously lefty, and the Tory agenda has got even more radically unhinged...yet now we think of it as "normal". The media convince us that extreme ultra-far-right policies that would have been an unobtainable wet dream of the Monday Club fringe in Thatcher's day are now not only within grasp but being portrayed as "common sense".

You can't pander to WingNuts. You can't play nice with WingNuts. You can't be reasonable with a toxic ideology that wants to see the world burn. You can't have a rational debate with a murderous shower of thieving psychotics. There is no compromise possible with WingNuts. You have to take the bstards down before they do it to you. Confront them at every turn, reject their lies, expose their antics and corruptions, shine a light on their plans to make a wasteland of society. Fight fire with fire.

Holding hands in a circle singing Kumbaya, or snivelling up to the top table whimpering that maybe it'd be nice if the Master only gave the peasants 30 lashes each tonight, is just fncking Stupid when you are faced with a Government of rapacious amoral conscienceless Tory scumbags like this lot.

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 11:48 AM
Brilliant piece on how the Blairites have facilitated the construction of a (false) WingNut Narrative that now dominates political discourse. It's time to fight back against this toxic and psychotic far-right ideology

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/joseph-finlay/jeremy-corbyn_b_7838596.html

pluralist
22-07-2015, 11:50 AM
It's been a 30 year process by the right-wing media of constantly dragging the centre of gravity ever further to the right over time, and the progressive/left keep falling for it. Today's Tories are far more dangerous than Thatcher's mob. Thatcher's mob were at least seen as radicals with strange new ideas. 30 years later the radical extremism of Thatcher's day is now painted as humdrum centrism or even as suspiciously lefty, and the Tory agenda has got even more radically unhinged...yet now we think of it as "normal". The media convince us that extreme ultra-far-right policies that would have been an unobtainable wet dream of the Monday Club fringe in Thatcher's day are now not only within grasp but being portrayed as "common sense".

The Monday Club were anti-immigrationistas and were actually a bit of a throwback even in Thatcher's day, though she threw them a morsel of raw meat every so often to keep them on board. I would have thought a better example of the kind of fringe you are thinking of was surely the likes of the Centre for Policy Studies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Policy_Studies

If the free market is the god, then ultimately anti-immigration and racist views are irrational and it is not surprising that such views are today very much on the fringes of UK Tories, who are mainly non-racist and non-homophobic. Rising Tory stars include the likes of Sajid Javid and Adam Afriyie. I don't disagree with your broader point, however, that today's lot are ultimately more extreme than the original Thatcherites.

Their influences are mainly American theorists like Grover Norquist - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/grover_norquist.html (though he personally fell somewhat out of favour in neo-con wingnut circles post-9/11 for being seen as too Arab-friendly. But that's a story for a different thread.)

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 11:56 AM
And on the other side of the fence a perfect demonstration of why Kumbaya is moronic, why attempts to persuade the Master that whipping the peasants is preferable to impaling them are doomed to failure, why these people are an existential threat that needs to be stopped by any means necessary, and why the only rational response to WingNuttery is a shovel to the face:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/07/why-i-was-right-to-vote-for-jeremy-corbyn/

Apjp
22-07-2015, 01:07 PM
Tony Benn was never Labour leader; as for Attlee, he was a social-reformer but also a centrist:





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Attlee


Do you think Corbyn can win an election for Labour?

I know Tony Benn never led the party.

I said he was in the same mould. Please be kind enough to read what I say before correcting me.

Apjp
22-07-2015, 01:14 PM
Thanks Sidewinder.

Always Therapeutic.

pluralist
22-07-2015, 01:14 PM
I know Tony Benn never led the party.

I said he was in the same mould. Please be kind enough to read what I say before correcting me.

Do you think Corbyn can win an election for Labour?

Apjp
22-07-2015, 01:22 PM
Do you think Corbyn can win an election for Labour?

I don't know Pluralist.

Britain ain't really a democracy is it.

He would need to convince them to coalesce with others and even then they might not have the numbers due to the undemocratic system itself.

Binn Beal
22-07-2015, 01:26 PM
Do you think Corbyn can win an election for Labour?
Leaders don't win elections.

Put not your trust in princes.

pluralist
22-07-2015, 01:31 PM
I don't know Pluralist.

Britain ain't really a democracy is it.

He would need to convince them to coalesce with others and even then they might not have the numbers due to the undemocratic system itself.

Point taken re Britain's lamentably poor electoral system, but bear in mind that the most likely scenario if we were to back-test a hypothetical proportional representation system onto the general election results would have been not a Conservative majority but a Tory/UKIP coalition with a slim majority over a Labour/SNP led opposition. So, really not all that far from what they have currently, except an even more right wing government (although, granted, in this alternative universe scenario, UKIP being in government might bring Labour to their senses).

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 02:09 PM
Do you think Corbyn can win an election for Labour?

Do you think waxwork-dummy shallow spin-merchants like Burnham, Cooper or Kendall, pushing wishy-washy Tory-lite policies, could possibly win an election? Voters are repelled by that nonsense now. The True Believer wingnut voter will always vote for the real deal rather than a pale imitiation; but the wingnut voter is and has always been a minority. They only win because their toxic endless lying and demonisation rhetoric enfeebles the hand-wringing soft left, and disengages huge numbers of the electorate - which is of course exactly what they want.

If you can convince 40% of the voters to stay at home disillusioned, turned off, repelled, despairing of change; and another 30% to half-heartedly vote for parties that have been bullied into offering nothing but WingNut-lite policies....then you always win.

It's fiendishly simple, and very effective. And the appropriate response is equally simple - but first you have to stop playing their game, stop making excuses for them, stop cuddling up to them, stop pretending there is any sort of "bipartisanship" on offer, stop pretending their insane policies can be modified through "constructive dialogue", stop allowing them to lie lie lie and lie again, setting the narrative and agenda based on endless lies, stop allowing their narrative to go unchallenged, stop bowing to their tabloid infantile distraction and derailment tactics, and stop pretending that these people are anything but psychopaths and sociopaths who want to watch the world burn.

We've had decades of these WingNut lunatics now, wrecking the economies of numerous nations and making the lives of millions an utter misery, and people still don't grasp their (rather obvious) playbook.

The exact same people now that solemnly swore the SNP would never win more than 20 seats in Scotland are the same people lining up now to solemnly proclaim that only by making a fake Tory-lite waxwork dummy the Labour leader, can Labour win against the Tories. It's so disconnected from reality it's hard to know where to begin.

Apjp
22-07-2015, 02:29 PM
Point taken re Britain's lamentably poor electoral system, but bear in mind that the most likely scenario if we were to back-test a hypothetical proportional representation system onto the general election results would have been not a Conservative majority but a Tory/UKIP coalition with a slim majority over a Labour/SNP led opposition. So, really not all that far from what they have currently, except an even more right wing government (although, granted, in this alternative universe scenario, UKIP being in government might bring Labour to their senses).

Yeah but they'd have about 5-6 less seats and an even slimmer majority.

You can't deny people representation because they're stupid.

pluralist
22-07-2015, 02:46 PM
Do you think waxwork-dummy shallow spin-merchants like Burnham, Cooper or Kendall, pushing wishy-washy Tory-lite policies, could possibly win an election? Voters are repelled by that nonsense now. The True Believer wingnut voter will always vote for the real deal rather than a pale imitiation; but the wingnut voter is and has always been a minority. They only win because their toxic endless lying and demonisation rhetoric enfeebles the hand-wringing soft left, and disengages huge numbers of the electorate - which is of course exactly what they want.

If you can convince 40% of the voters to stay at home disillusioned, turned off, repelled, despairing of change; and another 30% to half-heartedly vote for parties that have been bullied into offering nothing but WingNut-lite policies....then you always win.

It's fiendishly simple, and very effective. And the appropriate response is equally simple - but first you have to stop playing their game, stop making excuses for them, stop cuddling up to them, stop pretending there is any sort of "bipartisanship" on offer, stop pretending their insane policies can be modified through "constructive dialogue", stop allowing them to lie lie lie and lie again, setting the narrative and agenda based on endless lies, stop allowing their narrative to go unchallenged, stop bowing to their tabloid infantile distraction and derailment tactics, and stop pretending that these people are anything but psychopaths and sociopaths who want to watch the world burn.

We've had decades of these WingNut lunatics now, wrecking the economies of numerous nations and making the lives of millions an utter misery, and people still don't grasp their (rather obvious) playbook.

The exact same people now that solemnly swore the SNP would never win more than 20 seats in Scotland are the same people lining up now to solemnly proclaim that only by making a fake Tory-lite waxwork dummy the Labour leader, can Labour win against the Tories. It's so disconnected from reality it's hard to know where to begin.

Don't you think you're a bit old for the angry young man stuff?

Apjp
22-07-2015, 02:49 PM
If you're not angry you're not going to change anything.

Are you of the 'Centre' Pluralist?

pluralist
22-07-2015, 02:56 PM
If you're not angry you're not going to change anything.

Are you of the 'Centre' Pluralist?

"Are you of the 'Centre' Pluralist?"

Yes I think I probably am. Centre right on a few issues. Liz Kendall, I feel, had a point about Labour being misguided in recognising the Palestinian state. I don't fully agree with her, but it was a brave stance to take in the current environment.

Shaadi
22-07-2015, 03:00 PM
It always amuses me just how woefuly ignorant of the reality around them people are. How the meme in the UK is that the Tories are unassailable.

There was just 6.5% difference between the Tories and Labour this time. Yet that's supposed to be an unbridgeable gap, nonsensical defeatist bull crap.

If you look at the stupid looking and offputting head of Milliband, that aesthetic physical and mental of Milliband as a Wally ( regardless of his actual ability ) cost Labour 3-4% in the GE. The man was scarily deficient in the Charisma stakes, an electoral liability of huge proportions.

Blair's Labour are the evil twin of the Tories. Tories in Social Democrat clothing. You can see by the Labour leadership's support for the nasty welfare reforms that Blairite Labour is Tory in all but name. It's still not as bad as Toryism but it's just in the least bad option stakes and not really winning there, Blairite Labour are just a more ruthless version of the Liberals.

It's profoundly depressing that those careerist scum have removed the interests of the C2de class from the Labour parties agenda.

FF/FG/Lab = Conservative/Labour/Liberal = illusion of choice and no hope for the C2de class for many years to come in the middle of a huge long term reduction of the welfare state.

The English electorate are profoundly brainwashed, they were even stupid enough to reject AV in the referendum.

Easily manipulated and with no effective choice they are living in a Democratic deficit that they've been programmed to believe is the greatest Democracy in the world.

*sigh*

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 03:27 PM
"Are you of the 'Centre' Pluralist?"

Yes I think I probably am. Centre right on a few issues. Liz Kendall, I feel, had a point about Labour being misguided in recognising the Palestinian state. I don't fully agree with her, but it was a brave stance to take in the current environment.

You don't think Palestine should be recognised but you call yourself "of the center".

See this is my point. You are obviously very firmly on what would 30 years ago have been decidedly far-right politics. The right-wing media and politicians have now dragged the agenda so far into what was extremist politics in the 1980s that you can consider yourself "centrist".

You aren't. Really.

Take this, more hysteria from the WingNut media in Britain today:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/what-the-labour-party-could-look-like-under-jeremy-corbyn-10406317.html

This is actually unintentionally hilarious - clearly the writer thinks all these are BAD SCARY things. BAD SCARY things like errr.....stopping illegal wars, not blowing up the planet with nukes, getting the participants in a conflict together to talk it out instead of just bombing them, protecting the NHS and rolling back some of the disastrous previous privatisations of critical networks, investing in education and infrastructure while, ya know, not letting the rich get away with not paying anything, stopping wasting billions on corporate welfare for croney industries....jaysus sure all that sounds awful altogether. What an 'orrible little beardy man he is, eh?

Like the SNP in Scotland who are regularly portrayed as some sort of howling Marxists, all Corbyn is actually offering is relatively mild centre-to-centre-left social democracy that would not look out of place or at all remarkable in most of continental Europe. It is only in the Anglosphere where politics have been polluted for 30 years or more by howlingly-insane ultra-far-right extremists that this mildly progressive centrism is seen as a threat to civilisation itself and "far-left madness".

And as for your snide eejitry earlier....I'd rather still have the capacity for anger at corruption and exploitation, than to be a dead-eyed amoral willing enabler of oppression.

pluralist
22-07-2015, 03:42 PM
And as for your snide eejitry earlier....I'd rather still have the capacity for anger at corruption and exploitation, than to be a dead-eyed amoral willing enabler of oppression.

I wasn't aware that these are the only choices.

I think this is mainly a conversation you are having with yourself though, so I'll back out, as you seem to be slightly unhinged.

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 03:59 PM
You aren't actually having a conversation though are you, yer just sniping, at either me or at an imaginary version of Corbyn. I don't think you've actually made any sort of point in the entire thread.

As to the real Corbyn this profile piece was very interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/17/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-dont-do-personal

This is a man who actually spent 2 years on a VSO in Jamaica, and who was on the right side of a huge range of issues from Pinochet and Apartheid to Iraq to our own Birmingham Six, Guildford Four and the need to actually talk to Sinn Fein - and I often get the impression that a lot of the commentariat are still fighting that particular battle well over 20 years later - to today's battles like increasing inequality, the TTIP and climate change. Oh, and he's a republican who once called for the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas to be turfed out of Buck House into a "more modest dwelling" :) Not a trough-snouter who claims very modest expenses, not in it for ego or self-aggrandisement, someone who genuinely cares about a decent, peaceful society.

But to listen to the WingNut press you'd think the man was a raving lunatic with bizarre and insane notions...when it is actually WingNut policies that have repeatedly failed, in country after country, for decade after decade. A certain quote from Einstein springs to mind.

It's also interesting that the deputy position looks to be going to Tom Watson. Ya know, they guy that has kept niggling away at the peados-in-high-places scandal, the guy who exposed the NOTW phone hacking scandal, the guy who compared Murdoch to a mafia boss, and who opposed the Digital Economy Act.

Corbyn and Watson together could be an extremely effective team in going on the attack against the lunatic neo-liberal orthodoxy.

Finally riddle me this: if Corbyn is such a loony who will inevitably make millions of voters desert Labour and who will 100% guarantee massive Tory victories for 20 years to come.....why are the entirety of the right-wing media and politicians in such obvious outright panic over today's poll?

Apjp
22-07-2015, 04:10 PM
You aren't actually having a conversation though are you, yer just sniping, at either me or at an imaginary version of Corbyn. I don't think you've actually made any sort of point in the entire thread.

As to the real Corbyn this profile piece was very interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/17/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-dont-do-personal

This is a man who actually spent 2 years on a VSO in Jamaica, and who was on the right side of a huge range of issues from Pinochet and Apartheid to Iraq to our own Birmingham Six, Guildford Four and the need to actually talk to Sinn Fein - and I often get the impression that a lot of the commentariat are still fighting that particular battle well over 20 years later - to today's battles like increasing inequality, the TTIP and climate change. Oh, and he's a republican who once called for the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas to be turfed out of Buck House into a "more modest dwelling" :) Not a trough-snouter who claims very modest expenses, not in it for ego or self-aggrandisement, someone who genuinely cares about a decent, peaceful society.

But to listen to the WingNut press you'd think the man was a raving lunatic with bizarre and insane notions...when it is actually WingNut policies that have repeatedly failed, in country after country, for decade after decade. A certain quote from Einstein springs to mind.

:) He is as I said I think very much similar to Tony Benn though he came a generation too late so he never got a Cabinet role or into a position of policy influence...

pluralist
22-07-2015, 06:09 PM
You aren't actually having a conversation though are you, yer just sniping, at either me or at an imaginary version of Corbyn. I don't think you've actually made any sort of point in the entire thread.

As to the real Corbyn this profile piece was very interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/17/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-dont-do-personal

This is a man who actually spent 2 years on a VSO in Jamaica, and who was on the right side of a huge range of issues from Pinochet and Apartheid to Iraq to our own Birmingham Six, Guildford Four and the need to actually talk to Sinn Fein - and I often get the impression that a lot of the commentariat are still fighting that particular battle well over 20 years later - to today's battles like increasing inequality, the TTIP and climate change. Oh, and he's a republican who once called for the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas to be turfed out of Buck House into a "more modest dwelling" :) Not a trough-snouter who claims very modest expenses, not in it for ego or self-aggrandisement, someone who genuinely cares about a decent, peaceful society.

But to listen to the WingNut press you'd think the man was a raving lunatic with bizarre and insane notions...when it is actually WingNut policies that have repeatedly failed, in country after country, for decade after decade. A certain quote from Einstein springs to mind.

It's also interesting that the deputy position looks to be going to Tom Watson. Ya know, they guy that has kept niggling away at the peados-in-high-places scandal, the guy who exposed the NOTW phone hacking scandal, the guy who compared Murdoch to a mafia boss, and who opposed the Digital Economy Act.

Corbyn and Watson together could be an extremely effective team in going on the attack against the lunatic neo-liberal orthodoxy.

Finally riddle me this: if Corbyn is such a loony who will inevitably make millions of voters desert Labour and who will 100% guarantee massive Tory victories for 20 years to come.....why are the entirety of the right-wing media and politicians in such obvious outright panic over today's poll?

Thanks for explaining that to me - much appreciated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA25tpW6qlI

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 06:48 PM
As for "unelectable" it would appear there is solid data to suggest the UK electorate actually agree with 9 of Corbyn's main policies

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-jeremy-corbyn-policies-that-most-people-actually-agree-with-10407148.html

Corbyn is on the same side as the people when it comes to little unimportant matters like foreign policy, nationalising the railways, rent controls (which have long been a feature of such Marxist wastelands as ummmm New York and Berlin), a living wage, tuition fees and more.

Unelectable?

Funny that all the right wingers have is hysteria and snide sniping when finally confronted with actual opposition.

pluralist
22-07-2015, 07:26 PM
Funny that all the right wingers have is hysteria and snide sniping when finally confronted with actual opposition.

Good point.

pluralist
22-07-2015, 07:36 PM
It's also interesting that the deputy position looks to be going to Tom Watson. Ya know, they guy that has kept niggling away at the peados-in-high-places scandal, the guy who exposed the NOTW phone hacking scandal, the guy who compared Murdoch to a mafia boss, and who opposed the Digital Economy Act.

Corbyn and Watson together could be an extremely effective team in going on the attack against the lunatic neo-liberal orthodoxy.

Don't kid yourself, Watson isn't going to go in with a loony like Corbyn.

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 08:50 PM
This is actually quite extraordinary what I've been watching unfold on social media and across t'interwoogie over the last 12 hours. Corbyn is striking a chord everywhere from idealistic teenagers to grizzled old warriors of the left in their 60s, and beyond out into the wider public who are actually responding extremely favourably to Corbyn on media events like the LBC Radio debate (http://www.lbc.co.uk/lbc-labour-leadership-debate-watch-live-from-7pm-113343) between the four contenders.

And the fightback against the Tory/Blairite narrative of cynicism and despair is spreading too, with more and more blog articles like this starting to appear:

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2015/07/6-reasons-jeremy-corbyn-could-win-the-next-general-election/

UK politics might actually start to get interesting. Has the neoliberal jihad of the last 35 years finally run out of steam?

pluralist
22-07-2015, 08:59 PM
Anyone for a strawberry tea?

Binn Beal
22-07-2015, 09:14 PM
UK politics might actually start to get interesting. Has the neoliberal jihad of the last 35 years finally run out of steam?Corbyn is becoming the anti-austerity champion. It could be a long two months to the result.

Sidewinder
22-07-2015, 09:18 PM
Anyone for a strawberry tea?

Try to salvage some dignity man FFS :rolleyes:

DCon
22-07-2015, 10:28 PM
This is actually quite extraordinary what I've been watching unfold on social media and across t'interwoogie over the last 12 hours. Corbyn is striking a chord everywhere from idealistic teenagers to grizzled old warriors of the left in their 60s, and beyond out into the wider public who are actually responding extremely favourably to Corbyn on media events like the LBC Radio debate (http://www.lbc.co.uk/lbc-labour-leadership-debate-watch-live-from-7pm-113343) between the four contenders.

And the fightback against the Tory/Blairite narrative of cynicism and despair is spreading too, with more and more blog articles like this starting to appear:

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2015/07/6-reasons-jeremy-corbyn-could-win-the-next-general-election/

UK politics might actually start to get interesting. Has the neoliberal jihad of the last 35 years finally run out of steam?

Blair was campaigning today

For Blairism one assumes



Labour has "rediscovered losing", former Prime Minister Tony Blair warned as a poll put left-winger Jeremy Corbyn ahead in the leadership contest.

Mr Blair said Labour could win again - but not from a "traditional leftist platform" and said it had to "move on".

Addressing the Progress think tank, Mr Blair said the "debilitating feature" of the leadership contest was that it was being presented as a choice "between heart and head", adding that people who say their heart is with Mr Corbyn should "get a transplant".

Even if Mr Corbyn could win power, something Mr Blair thought would be unlikely, he said it would not be the right choice for the country.

"It would not take the country forward, it would take the country back," he said.







Mr Blair also attacked the SNP, saying nationalism was "caveman politics".


Anything this oxygen thief is agin, I am for


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-33619645

Apjp
22-07-2015, 10:52 PM
It's a good antibiotic such as a shovel to the head or a cell with a jacks a certain TB needs.

Shows how ridiculous Britain is that he is given airtime.

I've said it before but I really think the voting public over there is far more brainwashed than even in Ireland, mostly because we are a bit more democratic than them and the media influence is not quite as pervasive nor as Corporatist in the television sense as we only have 4-5 stations here.

He'd have been lynched in France long ago.

pluralist
23-07-2015, 02:49 PM
It's also interesting that the deputy position looks to be going to Tom Watson. Ya know, they guy that has kept niggling away at the peados-in-high-places scandal, the guy who exposed the NOTW phone hacking scandal, the guy who compared Murdoch to a mafia boss, and who opposed the Digital Economy Act.


Corbyn's own record in the first area you mention is being challenged by another Labour MP, John Mann. Mann is not, as far as I can gather, a neo-liberal Blairite type, he seems more Old Labour if anything.



An open letter to Jeremy Corbyn on child abuse
Posted by John Mann Mp 0pc on July 23, 2015

23 July 2015

Dear Jeremy,

As you know, for decades there was widespread child sexual abuse taking place in the London Borough of Islington. The extent of the abuse was only uncovered through the tenacity and bravery of whistle-blowers, journalists and survivors which led to a number of independent inquiries and the damning Ian White report in 1995.

As with the rest of the country, the reality is that child abuse was rampant, ignored, covered up and the extent of it is only just beginning to come to light. The attitude was that of the Head of MI5, who was revealed yesterday to have written about a paedophile MP to the then Cabinet Secretary Sir Robert Armstrong in 1986: ‘At the present stage…the risks of political embarrassment to the government is rather greater than the security danger’

At an event I hosted this year in Parliament of 200 child abuse and exploitation survivors, we received public testimony of the scale of abuse in Islington from a whistle-blower who was a leading light in uncovering child abuse in Islington during the 1980s and early 1990s. This social worker confirmed to me that she and others met with you in the early 1990s to raise her concerns about child abuse and cover-ups in Islington. You said that you would raise the matter with Virginia Bottomley, then at the Department of Health, but no indication of whether you followed this up was ever given.

In 1986 MP Geoffrey Dickens raised serious concerns about child abuse in Islington.

Your response was to complain to the Speaker about him visiting your constituency without informing you. I have faced such complaints myself in pursuing corruption issues.

There are many people who also rubbished the idiosyncratic Mr Dickens. They have been proven to be wrong, indeed I have just received details of another list of names of alleged and now proven paedophiles that Dickens provided to Leon Brittan as Home Secretary, not related to Islington, but further corroboration of the scale of the cover up that has taken place.

On February 17th 1986 you had called in Parliament for Geoffrey Dickens to “unreservedly withdraw his allegations of the existence of child brothels in the area (in Islington) and make a public apology.” You further called Mr Dickens ‘irresponsible’’.

You inadvertently helped the rubbishing and the cover up of all of the Dickens allegations. Indeed your actions encouraged others, because a week later the Islington Gazette published a letter attacking Geoffrey Dickens over his allegations from Roger Moody, a prominent pro paedophilia activist.

On May 30th 1995 the Independent reported that: “The Labour Borough (of Islington) has finally put its hands up. Last week an independent report confirmed that pimps, paedophiles and pornographers had for years preyed on children in Islington's homes.” The reporters highlights the inaction of the council and notes that: “Some social workers met Islington Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn begging him to influence the council, then still denying everything. Soon after, I met him. He did make inquiries but was reassured. There the matter rested.”

You might wish to read, if you have not had the time already, the superb speech made by Ann Clwyd in the House of Commons last Thursday in which she painstakingly explained the insidious role of insurance companies in ensuring that councils’ refused and refuse to accept liability or responsibility for children they looked after, including in North Wales, but which can also be extended to my own in Nottinghamshire and nearby Nottingham.

Perhaps most worrying of all are the implications of your question to the Home Secretary on November 3rd 2014.

You stated that ‘Finally in my own borough of Islington there have been complaints about Islington children’s homes in the past and the council has investigated them.’ This statement at first glance is non contentious. However on reflection is an extraordinary statement considering the representations made to you in the past that the council was in fact cover up abuse and not listening to the survivors, issues you were challenged on at the time.

Repeatedly across the country, institutions investigating allegations about themselves over child abuse have heard nothing, seen nothing and known nothing. This is at the very heart of the cover up culture.

I know you through your work on Central African and Latin American human rights issues, and am quite certain that you are a man of the highest personal integrity and ethics. I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that.

My concern is about your politics and how that results in actions, or in this case non-actions. As we have seen with the appalling misjudgements of the NCCL and its allowance of membership to the Paedophile Information Exchange in the 1970s, sections of the left were in denial of the motivations of some campaigners and this unwillingness to face up to unpalatable possibilities clouded judgement over the most serious of allegations.

In fact the allegations were true and are true as survivors increasingly choose to speak out. The establishment and sections of the left stood by and allowed children’s lives to be destroyed.

The reason that your response and inactions to these matters is worthy of specific scrutiny is that unlike others who did not see what was happening, or as we saw with Saville, kept their suspicions to themselves rather than speak out or investigate, you are wishing to lead the Labour Party during the period of Goddard inquiry into child abuse and are seeking become Prime Minister.

The so called ‘trendy left’ politics of the early 1980s was a contributory factor in covering up child abuse. I myself saw that repeatedly at first hand in Lambeth. Meanwhile children were murdered and disappeared, were raped and beaten, forced into prostitution, trafficked around and a significant number of lives destroyed and blighted.

Your inaction in the 1980s and 1990s says a lot, not about your personal character, which I admire, but about your politics which I do not. Your carefully worded excusing of Islington Council in the House of Commons equally demonstrates why it is inappropriate for you to attempt to lead the Labour Party at the critical time of the Goddard Enquiry, as child abuse is the issue that will haunt this Parliament.

Yours Sincerely



John Mann MP




http://www.mann4bassetlaw.com/an_open_letter_to_jeremy_corbyn_on_child_abuse

pluralist
23-07-2015, 02:53 PM
It's a good antibiotic such as a shovel to the head or a cell with a jacks a certain TB needs.

Shows how ridiculous Britain is that he is given airtime.

I've said it before but I really think the voting public over there is far more brainwashed than even in Ireland, mostly because we are a bit more democratic than them and the media influence is not quite as pervasive nor as Corporatist in the television sense as we only have 4-5 stations here.

He'd have been lynched in France long ago.

At the end of the day, he won three elections, the last after the Iraq disaster (although perhaps before the full extent was clear).

Richardbouvet
23-07-2015, 03:00 PM
Mann's diatribe is a small taste of what is going to be thrown at Corbyn if he becomes leader.

DCon
23-07-2015, 09:15 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKoM9XDVAAI5bdi.jpg

pluralist
23-07-2015, 09:28 PM
"Labour warned that Corbyn victor risks SDP-style split"

Yes, but, worringly, the loony left actually want that to happen.

pluralist
23-07-2015, 09:34 PM
You don't think Palestine should be recognised but you call yourself "of the center".

I didn't state Palestine shouldn't be recognised, I merely noted in passing that Kendall's stance was a brave one to take. I believe however that she is fundamentally mistaken, and forgets that Tory/Lib Dem MP's, including long term supporters of Israel, voted for the Labour-proposed motion.

DCon
24-07-2015, 09:37 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKtYaByWgAAVPbh.jpg

pluralist
24-07-2015, 09:44 PM
^ A rather petulant outburst from Cooper. I would criticise Corbyn for many things, but his gender is irrelevant. I don't think anyone would deny that his record on equality issues is pretty good.

C. Flower
24-07-2015, 09:45 PM
Mounting hysteria in the UK establishment over the barest possibility of a Corbyn win.

The Times even appears to urge its readers to sign up with the Labour Party to vote against him. :)

Looking unbeatable in the Labour contest at the moment.

C. Flower
24-07-2015, 09:47 PM
Mann's diatribe is a small taste of what is going to be thrown at Corbyn if he becomes leader.

There would be no end to the dirty tricks. That's a given, for any kind of elected socialist.

pluralist
24-07-2015, 09:52 PM
Mounting hysteria in the UK establishment over the barest possibility of a Corbyn win.

The Times even appears to urge its readers to sign up with the Labour Party to vote against him. :)

Looking unbeatable in the Labour contest at the moment.

Lol.

Sounds as though the far left already have their conspiracy theory in place for when Corbyn loses, as he will.

Binn Beal
24-07-2015, 10:07 PM
I haven't seen such a united campaign from the British establishment, including the press and TV since the Falklands war. They are almost panicking.

pluralist
24-07-2015, 10:36 PM
I haven't seen such a united campaign from the British establishment, including the press and TV since the Falklands war. They are almost panicking.

I haven't seen the UK left so united in determination to shoot themselves in the foot since, well, since Michael Foot was elected Labour leader.

Binn Beal
24-07-2015, 10:49 PM
Yes they should listen to their betters and meekly follow those who know that the only road is that taken by the Conservative Party.

pluralist
24-07-2015, 11:07 PM
Yes they should listen to their betters and meekly follow those who know that the only road is that taken by the Conservative Party.

They can listen to whoever the heck they like, but if they ignore the fact that the most left wing Labour leader during the last half-century was also the least electorally successful, they are foolish, in my view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Foot#1983_election

Binn Beal
24-07-2015, 11:46 PM
If the object is to get some of your party in the Cabinet and that can only be achieved by adopting the policies of the group of men who are already there, then, in my view, there is no point to it. The new people in the Cabinet would have the same policies, just different names.

pluralist
25-07-2015, 07:08 PM
From Twitter:


Jamie Reed ‏@jreedmp 8 mins8 minutes ago

It's the complete absence of any recognition of the Left's role in creating and enabling Thatcherism.



Jamie Reed ‏@jreedmp 9 mins9 minutes ago

It's the complete denial of how Bennism ushered in Thatcherism by destroying Labour as an electoral force.


Jamie Reed ‏@jreedmp 9 mins9 minutes ago

I've finally figured out what it is that disturbs me about the #jeremy4leader campaign. It's not Jeremy. Not at all.

I think he's hit the nail on the head here. Petulance and lack of self-reflection are key hallmarks of the far left.

morticia
25-07-2015, 07:37 PM
From Twitter:







I think he's hit the nail on the head here. Petulance and lack of self-reflection are key hallmarks of the far left.

There is that. Not to mention the splitters. People's Front of Judaea vs Judaean People's Front. Face palm

We need someone of the moderate Left who can both see a bigger picture and unite most people behind him/her. Barack Obama and Clinton are good examples; although far to the right of anything Europe considers leftie, they HAVE succeeded in bringing mainstream America with them on issues such as Obamacare, and it is the Right that is splintering.

We shall see

pluralist
25-07-2015, 08:37 PM
There is that. Not to mention the splitters. People's Front of Judaea vs Judaean People's Front. Face palm

We need someone of the moderate Left who can both see a bigger picture and unite most people behind him/her. Barack Obama and Clinton are good examples; although far to the right of anything Europe considers leftie, they HAVE succeeded in bringing mainstream America with them on issues such as Obamacare, and it is the Right that is splintering.

We shall see

True, although I've always thought Obama's instincts are genuinely of the left (even by European standards) but he is forced to govern more pragmatically than he would probably wish. That said, it's hard to justify his soft approach on Wall Street.

C. Flower
25-07-2015, 08:56 PM
Lol.

Sounds as though the far left already have their conspiracy theory in place for when Corbyn loses, as he will.


No, I took that direct from the Times :)

Who is going to beat Corbyn ?

A Guardian straw poll had him a mile ahead of anyone else.

People are prepared to vote for a loser, rather than a Blairite.

C. Flower
25-07-2015, 08:58 PM
I haven't seen such a united campaign from the British establishment, including the press and TV since the Falklands war. They are almost panicking.

There is a rabid and slavering frenzy. The establishment of course includes both 'old Labour' and New Labour'.

It must be middle aged and embryonic labour that want him.

pluralist
25-07-2015, 09:04 PM
There is that. Not to mention the splitters. People's Front of Judaea vs Judaean People's Front. Face palm.

What did one Corbyn supporter say to the other?

I'm not saying my mother-in-law is dumb but she has real difficulty understanding the ideological differences between the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist), the Communist Party of Britain (Marxist–Leninist) and the Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee).

;)

morticia
25-07-2015, 09:05 PM
[emoji38][emoji38][emoji37]

C. Flower
25-07-2015, 09:07 PM
They can listen to whoever the heck they like, but if they ignore the fact that the most left wing Labour leader during the last half-century was also the least electorally successful, they are foolish, in my view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Foot#1983_election

Rupert Murdoch, Thatcher/Falklands war had their effects. The defeat of the miners was a big knock back for the left. And I guess people were prepared to give Thatcherism a try.

They gave it a try and the outcome stinks.

C. Flower
25-07-2015, 09:09 PM
What did one Corbyn supporter say to the other?

I'm not saying my mother-in-law is dumb but she has real difficulty understanding the ideological differences between the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist), the Communist Party of Britain (Marxist–Leninist) and the Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee).

;)

I don't know much about Corbyn jnr, to be honest, but the elder brother who makes his living out of forecasting the weather is a gas ticket.

DCon
25-07-2015, 09:11 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKsXBeVWIAAAWxE.jpg

DCon
25-07-2015, 09:14 PM
planning to cut corporate tax reliefs

dangerous talk


"Under these plans Labour 2020 will make large reductions in the ú93 billion of corporate tax relief and subsidies.

Under these plans outlined today Labour 2020 will make the tax system more progressive, and follow a five-point plan to tackle tax avoidance and evasion:

Stronger anti-avoidance rules brought into UK tax law.
The aim of country-by-country reporting for multinational corporations.
Reform of small business taxation to tackle avoidance and evasion.
Enforce proper regulation of companies in the UK to ensure that they pay what they owe.
A reversal of the cuts to staff in HMRC and at Companies House, taking on more staff at both, to ensure that HMRC can collect the taxes the country so badly needs.

“The UK has shifted from taxing income and wealth to taxing consumption; and from taxing corporations to taxing individuals.

http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/investment_growth_and_tax_justice

pluralist
25-07-2015, 09:22 PM
I don't know much about Corbyn jnr, to be honest, but the elder brother who makes his living out of forecasting the weather is a gas ticket.

I thought you were alluding to a weather forecaster lookalike, didn't even realise his brother is a weather forecaster until I googled it. The butt of the joke above isn't really Corbyn personally, but factionalism, the ever present bugbear of the left and far left.

pluralist
25-07-2015, 09:29 PM
planning to cut corporate tax reliefs

dangerous talk

http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/investment_growth_and_tax_justice

A manifesto that the Inland Revenue would probably like, but if you parse it carefully and remember that the vast majority of corporations are 'mom & pop' SME's, it could be read as an anti-business manifesto. I expect and hope that Kendall at least will challenge him on some of these, particularly the point about "Reform of small business taxation to tackle avoidance and evasion."

C. Flower
25-07-2015, 09:53 PM
I thought you were alluding to a weather forecaster lookalike, didn't even realise his brother is a weather forecaster until I googled it. The butt of the joke above isn't really Corbyn personally, but factionalism, the ever present bugbear of the left and far left.

The Bolsheviks were characterised as a small and dogmatic sect, in the months before the October revolution. Political clarity is essential for innovation and progress. The Left gets into more trouble when it avoids political debate and sinks into an undefined morass.

The right relentlessly derides left political divisions. This is hardly because of a desire to advise the Left how to prosper politically. On the contrary. :)

Party splitting is a different matter.

C. Flower
25-07-2015, 09:54 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKsXBeVWIAAAWxE.jpg


Just translated the SYRIZA election manifesto, did he ?

C. Flower
25-07-2015, 09:57 PM
I thought you were alluding to a weather forecaster lookalike, didn't even realise his brother is a weather forecaster until I googled it. The butt of the joke above isn't really Corbyn personally, but factionalism, the ever present bugbear of the left and far left.

http://www.wordsonimages.com/pics/56496-o.jpg


How he predicts extreme weather events -

https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2014/12/15/betting-on-the-weather/

DCon
25-07-2015, 10:26 PM
Sunday Mirror

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKywahxWEAAGudQ.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKywai1WgAAAPR7.jpg

DCon
26-07-2015, 10:08 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CK3v9cIWcAAcoce.jpg

C. Flower
27-07-2015, 03:02 AM
The establishment hysteria is kind of encouraging. There is a whiff of anxiety about it.

RTE's This Week introduced Corbyn as "not of the 21st century", and its guest went on to accuse him of "liking cheese, not liking Trident".

Nicht Besonders
27-07-2015, 11:06 AM
The establishment hysteria is kind of encouraging. There is a whiff of anxiety about it.

RTE's This Week introduced Corbyn as "not of the 21st century", and its guest went on to accuse him of "liking cheese, not liking Trident".

Indeed, definite sense of panic. The commentariat of the Guardian are having a collective nervous breakdown (http://www.leninology.co.uk/2015/07/project-fear-versus-corbyn.html).

From an entertainment value POV, Corbyn has made this race ten times more interesting than it looked like being. Have to say I'd read his momentum and popularity as more of a comment on how uninspiring the other candidates and Labour's parliamentary party in general are than anything else. While I genuinely struggle to imagine him winning this contest, or surviving as leader until the next election given how opposed the majority of Lab MPs are to him, I hope he does for countless reasons.

And as for "can Labour win an election with Corbyn as leader?", of course they can. Our own government are in power, not because of anything they did or said in opposition (quite the opposite in fact, as the banking inquiry covered last week), but because of the financial crisis and FF's hand in making the Irish portion of it one of the biggest property and banking collapses in history. Very few would've predicted that, or that Enda would ever be taoiseach when Bertie was everyone's mate. Things change, and governments lose elections more often than oppositions win them.

edit: and if being "of the 21st century" means bank bailouts without consequences for finance, greater inequality through austerity, benefit caps, preemptive wars and colonial invasions of the middle-east, fear of immigrants, etc, who the **** wants to be "of the 21st century"?

Nicht Besonders
27-07-2015, 02:41 PM
A rather breathless dispatch from the Staggers blog

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/im-more-convinced-ever-jeremy-corbyn-going-win


At the general election, commentators had two choices: either the European, local and mayoral elections were wrong, or the polls were. In fact, even the polls hinted that they might be wrong – they consistently showed people saying they wanted David Cameron in Number 10 but would vote Labour in their own constituencies. This time, it’s far clearer: either the polls, the CLP nominations, the phonebanks, the local meetings and the hustings are all wrong, or Corbyn is going to win. It doesn’t look likely.

A few weeks ago I happened to catch Channel 4 news reporting on the campaigns. What was interesting was that, even among a lot of the Burnham and Cooper supporters they interviewed, many were prefacing their support with a caveat like "my heart says Jeremy, but I've got to vote for Cooper/Burnham cos they're more electable/realistic, etc". Given Corbyn's momentum now, it's not hard to imagine that many of those who wanted to vote for him, but felt they couldn't cos it wasn't realistic or electorally sound, now might be wavering.


Assuming the above is accurate, surely the other three are going to have to make some sort of pact to try to stop the Cornado at some point (and the sooner the better as well I'd imagine)? If Corbyn being leader really is as dire as the press and parliamentary would have us believe, Burnham or Cooper have to give in and throw their support behind the other.

Nicht Besonders
29-07-2015, 03:06 PM
Seems I've killed the thread. Anyway, Unison backed Corbyn today, and he is now a marginal favourite across the board with the bookies.

If they're right, I'll be fascinated to see what the PLP do.

C. Flower
29-07-2015, 05:29 PM
A rather breathless dispatch from the Staggers blog

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/im-more-convinced-ever-jeremy-corbyn-going-win



A few weeks ago I happened to catch Channel 4 news reporting on the campaigns. What was interesting was that, even among a lot of the Burnham and Cooper supporters they interviewed, many were prefacing their support with a caveat like "my heart says Jeremy, but I've got to vote for Cooper/Burnham cos they're more electable/realistic, etc". Given Corbyn's momentum now, it's not hard to imagine that many of those who wanted to vote for him, but felt they couldn't cos it wasn't realistic or electorally sound, now might be wavering.


Assuming the above is accurate, surely the other three are going to have to make some sort of pact to try to stop the Cornado at some point (and the sooner the better as well I'd imagine)? If Corbyn being leader really is as dire as the press and parliamentary would have us believe, Burnham or Cooper have to give in and throw their support behind the other.


I heard some regular hack on RTE say "well - against austerity, and against unneccessary wars.... what can be wrong with that, when you look at it..."

:)

Sidewinder
30-07-2015, 01:55 AM
I heard some regular hack on RTE say "well - against austerity, and against unneccessary wars.... what can be wrong with that, when you look at it..."

Like I said about a week ago....the far-right WingNut media and all their little nutter sociopath helpers are running around yelping and screeching about how Corbyn's views are "extremist" and "´nsane" and "would be a disaster".

In reality there is nothing at all insane about Corbyn's views, in fact he's been well ahead of the curve and proven right on a whole slew of issues down the years. And what is so "insane" about not wanting to set the world on fire and kill millions of people? What is "´nsane" about not wanting half the nations children growing up hungry and dependent on food banks? What is "´nsane" about protecting the environment so our grandchildren actually have a planet to grow up on? What is "´nsane" about the blunt fact that wages are too low and corporate profits too high as a share of national income and this trend has now reached critical levels of inequality and suffering? What is "´nsane" about wanting to protect healthcare for all, what is "´nsane" about restoring access to education?

It's the WingNut media and their little acolytes that are the insane ones. And despite repeatedly blowing up the world, killing millions of people, repeatedly imploding the global economy, wasting trillions on bank/corporate bailouts and welfare, driving millions into poverty, destroying public services and leaving the world much more unequal, unstable, authoritarian and dangerous than they found it, still the neo-liberal jihadi fundamentalist whackjobs insist "There Is No Alternative".

No alternative to rampant and murderous psychosis? Get up the f'ing yard ya muppets.

pluralist
30-07-2015, 02:04 AM
No alternative to rampant and murderous psychosis? Get up the f'ing yard ya muppets.

Is this a clever satire on the far left? I really and truly hope so.

Sidewinder
30-07-2015, 03:37 AM
Is this a clever satire on the far left? I really and truly hope so.

Yeah cos millions of kids going to bed hungry - and that's when they are lucky enough to live in a Western country so they actually have a bed that hasn't been drone-bombed - is really funny. Real wages in decline for decades now is funny. Cost of living beyond the reach of ordinary workers even with both parents working, what a larf. Rapidly increasing inequality and the concentration of all wealth and power in the hands of a tiny few is a right rib-tickler. Illegal wars are hilarious. Destroying the environment putting billions in the third world at risk of death just cracks me up every time. Stripping the most vulnerable sick, poor, unemployed, disabled etc of all rights and all services, what comic genius thought that one up eh? But wait! - the real funny bit is that services for the sick and disabled are being cut in order to pay for the gambling debts of banks, while corporations save trillions in tax dodges and corporate welfare. I was laughing so hard I almost fell over, I tells ya. Allowing corporations to sue sovereign nations for imagined future profits they claim have been hypothetically disappeared by national legislation, now THAT'S a real hoot.

WingNut neo-liberal ideology is entirely psychotic, anyone who supports it has got serious ethical and psychological issues. That's the blunt truth that everyone is too scared of the screeching far-right nutjobs to actually say out loud. But if you actually think for one second that appeasing the WingNuts will earn you some browniwe points with them and maybe they won't totally rape you financially as soon as they get the chance then think again.

This actually is a war, a war against a psychotic cult of nutters who want to watch the world burn, and sitting on the sidelines wringing your hands about how awful it all is, or even worse snivelling and grovelling along to crawl at the Masters feet in the hope of a pat on the head for being a Good Dog, isn't going to save you.

morticia
30-07-2015, 05:23 AM
Corbyn seems entirely reasonable to me. I'm still seething over the job Bush and Bliar did on Iraq, which has directly led to today's bloodbath.

Just while I'm in rant mode, another stellar achievement of the lovely egalitarian Tories is to have almost doubled the number of UK women sacked or otherwise relieved of employment as a result of pregnancy from 30,000 ten years ago to 54,000 today. Per annum.

I cannot for the life of me understand why the UK electorate returned them to power, except that they've all been convinced it's about the right to quit the EU, Welfare scroungers and illegal immigrants. After Greece, I'd be theoretically less opposed to the first aim, except that I'm well aware they want to quit in order to evade the few decent social regulations Brussels still has on the statute books.

This xenophobic narrative isn't so prevalent here, don't understand the basis for difference either, but am thankful for it. I cannot understand why austerity (according to the Grauniad of a year or so ago) appears to have had a worse effect on the bottom 50% in the UK than anywhere else in the EU except Greece, but yet, the Tories were still returned to power.

If there's one thing I can be sure of through, it is that the Establishment will crucify Corbyn, or attempt to.

Can't have the whole cocaine snorting, bra wearing, prozzie purchasing fun disrupted now, can we?

[emoji37][emoji13][emoji24][emoji49][emoji49]

Nicht Besonders
30-07-2015, 04:00 PM
If there's one thing I can be sure of through, it is that the Establishment will crucify Corbyn, or attempt to.



No doubt, but I really want to see them try it.

There has been a lot of rubbish written about Corbyn, but there's also been some very interesting stuff. This piece this morning is far from radical, but raises a lot of interesting points and I'm broadly in sympathy with it:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/jeremy-gilbert/what-hope-for-labour-and-left-election-80s-and-%E2%80%98aspiration%E2%80%99#.Vbn--jYfU4Y.twitter

I'm not convinced Labour need to forget about winning elections, but chasing middle England in "key marginals" is only gonna drag them further right. I can understand the case that right-wing Labour will make, that every five years of tory rule does more and more harm, but it's worth taking a chance as the other three candidates are all so average and dull that I doubt they'll do much to challenge the tories anyway.

The point especially worth making is that Labour ought to be looking now to be part of a broader left consensus in the UK. I think this means supporting some sort of PR reform and looking to build a coalition post the next GE with Nationalists, Greens, and Liberals, who will all benefit from a PR system. Yes, this would be at the expense of some Labour seats, but the Scottish catastrophe for Labour is not going to swing back over the next few years, New Labour took Scotland for granted assuming it'd never vote for anyone else, and this is the consequence. Given this new electoral arithmetic, the options are to either chase middle England even more so than under Blair, go further right, follow the tory and Ukip lead on Johnny Foreigner, Benefit Scum, all of that hateful *****, or build an inclusive alternative.

There's no guarantee Corbyn would consider something as electorally radical as this, but he's more likely to than any of the others, given the way they're pitching themselves.

Binn Beal
30-07-2015, 04:07 PM
If you have a student card, you can join the British Labour Party for ú1 and have a vote. I don't know if this works for an Irish address or an Irish student card.

morticia
30-07-2015, 04:29 PM
Inclined to agree that the other 3 candidates would just shift further to the right, yes.

Hopefully he'll win, but he should be prepared for trouble...

pluralist
30-07-2015, 04:39 PM
Burnham was only one of other three that says would serve with/for Corbyn in shadow cabinet if appointed.

Seems sensible..given way things are going.

morticia
30-07-2015, 07:58 PM
Good for Burnham...

pluralist
30-07-2015, 10:30 PM
Yeah cos millions of kids going to bed hungry...

Millions of kids going to bed hungry...but hundreds of millions fewer going to bed hungry than would have been the case in the alternative scenario if the Marxist Soviet Union had 'won' the Cold War. The Soviet Union went from competing with the US in the initial stages of the 'space race' to barely being able to feed its population a few decades later - not due to famine or natural shortages caused by severe weather events, etc, but simply due to the inefficiencies of the planned approach.

One large American multi-national has done more for the poor than any number of Marxist treatises:

http://nypost.com/2013/07/28/the-greatest-food-in-human-history/

The rest of your post critiques the excesses of neo-liberalism. I agree that workers should continue to organise to fight to protect hard-fought union and other rights. This is particularly important during recessionary periods.

The ideas of the 'Blue Labour' tendency interest me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Labour

Binn Beal
30-07-2015, 10:51 PM
The Soviet Union went from competing with the US in the initial stages of the 'space race' to barely being able to feed its population a few decades later - not due to famine or natural shortages caused by severe weather events, etc, but simply due to the inefficiencies of the planned approach.The Soviet Union went from a medieval, feudal society with serfs, basic hand tools, illiteracy, grinding poverty to a major industrial society with educational, medical and scientific achievements in less that half a century and that having fought off imperial interventions and an invasion by the greatest military/industrial power in the world.

pluralist
30-07-2015, 10:59 PM
The Soviet Union went from a medieval, feudal society with serfs, basic hand tools, illiteracy, grinding poverty to a major industrial society with educational, medical and scientific achievements in less that half a century and that having fought off imperial interventions and an invasion by the greatest military/industrial power in the world.

But a good portion of this process of development happened, in various phases, from the 18C to the early 20C under its predecessor, the Czarist Russian Empire. You attribute all of the positive developments and modernisation to Marxism and the Bolshevik Revolution because it suits your viewpoint/politics. You talk of the Soviet's Union's invasion (?) by the greatest military/industrial power yet are unaware or ignore the fact that the Russian Empire was rapidly expanding its imperialist reach from the early 18C on. Its true that the empire was largely rural-based until the mid nineteenth century, but it had commenced the process of industrialisation 60 years before the Bolshevik revolution. One of the factors being that Tsar Alexander II - not Lenin - emancipated the serfs at this time.

Binn Beal
30-07-2015, 11:14 PM
(?)Among the silliness about the Tsar this query of the invasion of the Soviet Union takes the biscuit.

pluralist
31-07-2015, 10:47 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BUyynpdCYAEacBI.jpg

C. Flower
31-07-2015, 11:38 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BUyynpdCYAEacBI.jpg

History began in 1950? Ssshhh "Let's not talk about the war !"

But I do like the general point about zooming in to a short period to make a big generalisation.

The joke itself commits a similar offence, and assumes that people only move towards socialism in periods of crash.

In fact, the left was far stronger in the boom of the 1960s.

pluralist
31-07-2015, 11:53 PM
History began in 1950? Ssshhh "Let's not talk about the war !"

But I do like the general point about zooming in to a short period to make a big generalisation.

I agree that a longer term view would ideally be preferable, but Binn Beal has just been telling us that ALL post-feudal technical and societal progress that occurred in the Soviet Union/Russia Empire, was attributable to Marxism and the Bolshevik revolution. ;)


The joke itself commits a similar offence, and assumes that people only move towards socialism in periods of crash.

I didn't copy over the title, but it was posted on Twitter as a dig at Corbyn supporters, so the point whoever made the graph was trying to get across was not so much that people only move to socialism in periods of crash but it was more directed at left wing reactions to an alleged 'crisis of capitalism' such as occurred in 2008-2010.

pluralist
01-08-2015, 02:26 AM
Ok, it's the Mail, but troubling questions about Corbyn's past record when warned about paedophiles operating in his constituency.





A blind eye to child abuse: Whistleblowers warned Labour leadership favourite Jeremy Corbyn of paedophiles preying on boys on his doorstep - but claim he did NOTHING

Social workers warned Corbyn that child abuse was rife in his Islington constituency in 1992
‘We'd been seeing so many 12 to 15-year-olds who were being sexually exploited, we could hardly believe it,’ Liz Davies, one of the five social workers, recalled this week
Corbyn never wrote to Davies, or telephoned, to acknowledge their meeting, or thank her for seeking to blow the whistle

By Guy Adams for the Daily Mail

Published: 22:07 GMT, 31 July 2015 | Updated: 22:39 GMT, 31 July 2015


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3181783/Did-Jeremy-Corbyn-try-protect-fellow-Left-wingers-implicated-paedophile-scandal.html

Nicht Besonders
01-08-2015, 04:09 PM
ugh

pluralist
01-08-2015, 07:42 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLWNEcKWEAQYZe-.jpg

Sidewinder
01-08-2015, 10:44 PM
Meanwhile in the real world outside the relentlessly mad screeching of the right-wing commentariat bubble, Corbyn is attracting huge crowds.

https://www.facebook.com/330250343871/photos/a.468063663871.262492.330250343871/10153540174758872/?type=1&fref=nf&pnref=story

The lesson is simple, and you would have thought the rise of the SNP in Scotland would have provided it, but I guess English politics have their own "slow learners". People don't want bland spinmeister pseudo-Tories in thrall to right-wing corporatist agendas and wholly owned by a corrupt corporate media. As soon as any sort of semi-plausible actual real alternative to the WingNut agenda presents itself, they like what they see and they flock to it. The SNPs brand of progressive centre-left politics has been running Scotland for years now and the universe has not imploded.

Exactly the same processes are driving the meteoric rise of the SNP to dominance north of the border as are driving this huge groundswell of support behind Jeremy Corbyn in England. People have had 35 years of lunatic WingNut far-right fanatical cultist voodoo, it has utterly failed, and ordinary people no longer believe the Big Lie that "there is no alternative". But instead of adapting to the changed times and offering people the leadership they crave, the Oxbridge Spad set currently in charge of Labour are insisting on sticking to the tired old Blairite mantras.

In politics as in all life, the name of the game is adapt or die. WingNuttery has run its course, it is yesterday's ideology, an evolutionary dead end, a failure. But as it is essentially, and always was, a religious cult reliant on simplistic slogans and a cartoon black-and-white misinterpretation of first-year undergrad economics, then I doubt any of its acolytes will actually have the intellectual machinery to recognise any of this. They'll just keep howling their slogans at the moon while the world moves on without them.

Apjp
01-08-2015, 11:24 PM
Meanwhile in the real world outside the relentlessly mad screeching of the right-wing commentariat bubble, Corbyn is attracting huge crowds.

https://www.facebook.com/330250343871/photos/a.468063663871.262492.330250343871/10153540174758872/?type=1&fref=nf&pnref=story

The lesson is simple, and you would have thought the rise of the SNP in Scotland would have provided it, but I guess English politics have their own "slow learners". People don't want bland spinmeister pseudo-Tories in thrall to right-wing corporatist agendas and wholly owned by a corrupt corporate media. As soon as any sort of semi-plausible actual real alternative to the WingNut agenda presents itself, they like what they see and they flock to it. The SNPs brand of progressive centre-left politics has been running Scotland for years now and the universe has not imploded.

Exactly the same processes are driving the meteoric rise of the SNP to dominance north of the border as are driving this huge groundswell of support behind Jeremy Corbyn in England. People have had 35 years of lunatic WingNut far-right fanatical cultist voodoo, it has utterly failed, and ordinary people no longer believe the Big Lie that "there is no alternative". But instead of adapting to the changed times and offering people the leadership they crave, the Oxbridge Spad set currently in charge of Labour are insisting on sticking to the tired old Blairite mantras.

In politics as in all life, the name of the game is adapt or die. WingNuttery has run its course, it is yesterday's ideology, an evolutionary dead end, a failure. But as it is essentially, and always was, a religious cult reliant on simplistic slogans and a cartoon black-and-white misinterpretation of first-year undergrad economics, then I doubt any of its acolytes will actually have the intellectual machinery to recognise any of this. They'll just keep howling their slogans at the moon while the world moves on without them.

:)

DCon
02-08-2015, 12:03 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLWn2Z4WsAA2qSi.png

pluralist
02-08-2015, 10:39 PM
Aaronovitch Blusters to a Well of Silence

by craig on July 27, 2015 10:52 pm in Uncategorized

Why Rupert Murdoch considers it worth his while to pay David Aaronovitch a large six figure sum for such puerile antics as tweeting that I am insane, is a conjecture I find difficult to resolve. Today this exchange occurred on twitter:

David Aaronovitch: This suggestion that if elected Corbyn could be quickly ousted is utter ********. Democracy allows Labour to commit Hara Kiri.

Mark Doran: @DAaronovitch I hope everyone is watching how these servants of the micro-elite try to paint “attracting popular support” as “committing suicide.”

Mark Doran: @DAaronovitch Craig finds the elite-serving contortions every bit as funny as I do

David Aaronovitch: @MarkJDoran I tend to find Craig Murray unpersuasive on the grounds of him being unhinged. I can see why you like him, though.

Mark Doran: Says the man who managed to find Bush and Blair credible. I can see why you liked them, though.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/07/aaronovitch-blusters-to-a-well-of-silence/

pluralist
03-08-2015, 02:50 AM
The SNPs brand of progressive centre-left politics has been running Scotland for years now and the universe has not imploded.

SNP are a realistic and pragmatic centre-left party and both Sturgeon and Salmond are formidable politicians, by contrast Corbyn has a history of attaching himself to eccentric far left and in some cases even openly terroristic causes. The rest of your post is content-free unfocused ranting that by definition can't be responded to as its subjective.

At the risk of sparking off another rant from you, I will point out what should be obvious but very few have said, the SNP have almost achieved Scottish independence without firing a single bullet, by stark contrast to the "historic" record of SF/IRA.

Sidewinder
04-08-2015, 03:58 AM
"SF/IRA"? ROFLMAO, get up the yard with yer 1980s Wingnuttery ya far-right loon ;) Doesn't take much button-pushing for the mask to slip, does it? *sniggers*

https://theworldturnedupsidedownne.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/15-times-jeremy-corbyn-was-on-the-right-side-of-history/

pluralist
04-08-2015, 04:27 AM
"SF/IRA"? ROFLMAO, get up the yard with yer 1980s Wingnuttery ya far-right loon ;) Doesn't take much button-pushing for the mask to slip, does it? *sniggers*

https://theworldturnedupsidedownne.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/15-times-jeremy-corbyn-was-on-the-right-side-of-history/

'Doesn't take much button-pushing for the mask to slip' - I have no clue who it is you imagine me to be. I've reported the bit about 'far-right loon' as its personal abuse. You obviously have anger issues, and I do honestly think this is something you might consider getting help with, but I don't need to accept or tolerate personal abuse on this (or any other) forum just because my posts tick a particular box that you have been programmed to hate.

Sidewinder
04-08-2015, 05:13 AM
"programmed to hate"

PMSL :)

Sidewinder
04-08-2015, 08:55 AM
This really is extraordinary. 1500 people swamped a Corbyn rally in Camden! Over the last few days he has also drawn huge crowds in Liverpool, Coventry and Birmingham. Surely it's pretty obvious even to the most blinkered now that there is a real appetite for Corbyn and he is capable of generating engagement and enthusiasm from across society.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-bid-labour-leadership-momentum-supporters-flock-london-rally

And a very interesting piece by Owen Jones which touches on the way the narrative has been driven to the extreme right in recent decades - I wasn't aware there was actually a name for it, the Overton Window (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window); that the real fear of the right is that Corbyn is already pushing the Window back towards what 30 years ago was the centre; and the kind of attacks and sabotage that can be expected from within the PLP and allegedly-left media like the Grauniad and Beeb.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/owen-jones-right-are-mocking-jeremy-corbyn-because-secretly-they-fear-him

Saoirse go Deo
04-08-2015, 05:41 PM
'Doesn't take much button-pushing for the mask to slip' - I have no clue who it is you imagine me to be. I've reported the bit about 'far-right loon' as its personal abuse. You obviously have anger issues, and I do honestly think this is something you might consider getting help with, but I don't need to accept or tolerate personal abuse on this (or any other) forum just because my posts tick a particular box that you have been programmed to hate.

Just so you are aware SF/IRA is a term used almost exclusively by those on the far right in Britain and loyalists/unionists (of the die hard type) in the north. It's a somewhat loaded term.

Saoirse go Deo
04-08-2015, 05:45 PM
This really is extraordinary. 1500 people swamped a Corbyn rally in Camden! Over the last few days he has also drawn huge crowds in Liverpool, Coventry and Birmingham. Surely it's pretty obvious even to the most blinkered now that there is a real appetite for Corbyn and he is capable of generating engagement and enthusiasm from across society.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-bid-labour-leadership-momentum-supporters-flock-london-rally

And a very interesting piece by Owen Jones which touches on the way the narrative has been driven to the extreme right in recent decades - I wasn't aware there was actually a name for it, the Overton Window (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window); that the real fear of the right is that Corbyn is already pushing the Window back towards what 30 years ago was the centre; and the kind of attacks and sabotage that can be expected from within the PLP and allegedly-left media like the Grauniad and Beeb.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/owen-jones-right-are-mocking-jeremy-corbyn-because-secretly-they-fear-him

But we must ask ourselves, why is social democracy the answer now when it never has been before?

He seems, and I don't know much about him, to be a decent enough skin but what we have here again is repeating the past, put your faith in someone like him and you will inevitably be let down every time. This "savior" leader stuff is nonsense, effective change has to come from the people themselves, their hopes should not be pinned on individuals. Has Obama thought us nothing

morticia
04-08-2015, 06:17 PM
Just so you are aware SF/IRA is a term used almost exclusively by those on the far right in Britain and loyalists/unionists (of the die hard type) in the north. It's a somewhat loaded term.

While seconding this, I'd also like to remind everyone of the ball not man rule.

pluralist
04-08-2015, 10:46 PM
Just so you are aware SF/IRA is a term used almost exclusively by those on the far right in Britain and loyalists/unionists (of the die hard type) in the north. It's a somewhat loaded term.

In my experience, it is used more widely than that, and can be a useful shorthand in reference to the era when the political wing of the republican movement was relatively inactive or nascent and the military wing (or at least military strategy) was relatively ascendant.

However, in the interests of the forum's harmony, and to avoid sidetracking the thread, I will endeavour to avoid using the term.

Sidewinder
05-08-2015, 01:45 AM
But we must ask ourselves, why is social democracy the answer now when it never has been before?

But that's been the repeated subtext of the thread. Over the last 30 years the narrative was forcibly pushed towards far-right extremism to the point where rather mildly center to center-left social democratic policies have been denounced and vilified as impossible extremist Marxism that would "wreck the economy". It's been a decades-long jihad by fundamentalist nutters who dominated media and politics.

Except then the supposedly perfect infallible religious zealotry of the WingNuts blew up the global economy....and their supposed infallible "cure" to the disaster of their own making has been just as bad for society. Put simply, for all their absolutist certainty and messianic screeching, ordinary people don't buy the snakeoil they are selling any more and looking for an alternative, any alternative.

The WingNut jihad, like any fundamentalist crusade, has finally run out of steam as the gap between their claims of economic and social nirvana, and the ugly nasty unstable unequal vicious reality of the society they have corrupted, becomes far too wide for their simplistic rhetoric and cliches to remain credible.

Any alternative that seems semi-plausible on the left right or anywhere else on the traditional spectrum, will look increasingly attractive at this point in the development of Western politics. The old dominant narrative that has held almost unquestioned sway for 30 years has collapsed. This will take many different forms in different countries, but it is what is driving the rise of the SNP in Scotland, Corbyn in British Labour, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump in the US, Syriza in Greece, Podemos in Spain, AfD and Die Linke in Germany...

And of course people who bought into the WingNut jihad will find it difficult to let their religious faith go and will cling to the slogans and cliches that worked so well for so long, and then be baffled at why the old winning formulas that used to guarantee acquiescence or acclaim now just generate visceral contempt. This is the psychological process going on that the Blairites in British Labour just don't understand, and never will.

morticia
05-08-2015, 08:36 AM
In my experience, it is used more widely than that, and can be a useful shorthand in reference to the era when the political wing of the republican movement was relatively inactive or nascent and the military wing (or at least military strategy) was relatively ascendant.

However, in the interests of the forum's harmony, and to avoid sidetracking the thread, I will endeavour to avoid using the term.

It is widely used by the Dublin middle classes, many of whom cannot and will not accept the rise of SF and the unpopularity of neoliberalism amongst those not so well off.

Ironically, despite their continued wish to conflate SF with pre GFA violence, the best way to keep 'em peaceful is to give them an increasing say in running things. The more investment any movement has in democratic power, the less likely they are to backslide into the bad old ways. Or so say multiple academic studies on the transition to peace of armed movements world-wide.

So, the term is both anachronistic and counter productive, despite common usage in Howth and Foxrock.

Shaadi
05-08-2015, 10:27 AM
It is widely used by the Dublin middle classes, many of whom cannot and will not accept the rise of SF and the unpopularity of neoliberalism amongst those not so well off.

Ironically, despite their continued wish to conflate SF with pre GFA violence, the best way to keep 'em peaceful is to give them an increasing say in running things. The more investment any movement has in democratic power, the les s likely they are to backslide into the bad old The ways. Or so say multiple academic studies on the transition to peace of armed movements world-wide.

So, the term is both anachronistic and counter productive, despite common usage in Howth and Foxrock.

The term was used by Unionists and British politicians as a dog whistle to identify people as assassination targets. Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finucane were tagged in such a way. The use of it by people now is just an attempt to wind SFers and those of a similar mindset up.

It is indeed counter-productive because it casts SF as being anti-establishment in a country where the Establishment is now hated and discredited in equal measure.

Anyhow, back on topic. What happens if Corbyn wins and is put in charge of a party infected to its Core by Blairism?

Would they cooperate with him?

I think Corbyn could do an awful lot for Labour's image without really changing much about Labour. By injecting a sense of decency into Labour's image he'd camouflage the cynical Blairite party that Labour actually is.

Nicht Besonders
05-08-2015, 10:48 AM
Anyhow, back on topic. What happens if Corbyn wins and is put in charge of a party infected to its Core by Blairism?

Would they cooperate with him?

I think Corbyn's leadership would need to show signs of improvement in Labour's national poll ratings very quickly to get any middling or wavering MPs onside. The question there is, how many are even willing to even give him that leeway? He got into the contest because of votes from MPs who didn't actually support him (the threshold being 15% of the PLP), so if we assume, out of 230-ish MPs, he had the support of 10% of those in his leadership bid, even getting to the point where 50% of his own MPs support his leadership looks something like a mountain to climb.

Because he seems like such a decent guy (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/17/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-dont-do-personal), I genuinely do not like to imagine the kind of briefings and stunts that will be pulled out to take him down, both from his own MPs and the tories.


I think Corbyn could do an awful lot for Labour's image without really changing much about Labour. By injecting a sense of decency into Labour's image he'd camouflage the cynical Blairite party that Labour actually is.

A more substantial and reasoned critique to be advanced against Corbyn than the Blairite cant is that, really, there isn't all that much difference between him and the others (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/30/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-clarity-under-30s-human-factors):


In some ways, though, he is more like his fellow contenders than his supporters would like to admit. He apparently has nothing to say about the huge social and economic factors that underlie Labour’s decline as an electoral force, suggesting instead that the solutions to its travails lie with the magic bullet of being “anti-austerity”, this or that policy, and the old foundations of its support – the unions, chiefly – being magically revived. There is something unavoidably depressing about the fact that the supposed radical in the contest apparently has nothing to say about changing the voting system. Beyond a vague insistence that Labour has to somehow turn itself into a “social movement” he does not talk about working with other parties, nor how a force as damaged and discredited as Labour could bond with other groups. Frequently, in fact, one gets the sense that his aim is to simply pull the same old levers – but in a leftwing way.

Labour has huge problems. Are any of these people up to fixing it?

Shaadi
05-08-2015, 12:26 PM
I think Corbyn's leadership would need to show signs of improvement in Labour's national poll ratings very quickly to get any middling or wavering MPs onside. The question there is, how many are even willing to even give him that leeway? He got into the contest because of votes from MPs who didn't actually support him (the threshold being 15% of the PLP), so if we assume, out of 230-ish MPs, he had the support of 10% of those in his leadership bid, even getting to the point where 50% of his own MPs support his leadership looks something like a mountain to climb.

Because he seems like such a decent guy (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/17/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-dont-do-personal), I genuinely do not like to imagine the kind of briefings and stunts that will be pulled out to take him down, both from his own MPs and the tories.



A more substantial and reasoned critique to be advanced against Corbyn than the Blairite cant is that, really, there isn't all that much difference between him and the others (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/30/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-clarity-under-30s-human-factors):



Labour has huge problems. Are any of these people up to fixing it?

There are interesting parallels between Irish and UK politics at the moment.

We are further ahead of the curve in realising that old loyalties are dying rapidly and in the UK the voting system doesn't allow for reflecting change very well.

For our Civil War FF and FG parties the Uk has Tory vs Labour but with an even more marked divide due to the North-South divisions in support for both parties.

I'm not on a PC so I can't easily analyse what happened at constituency level.

The Lib Dems collapsed because they were too Tory like, just like Irish Labour are practically indistinguishable from FG when in Govt.

It may seem or be necessary for Labour to lean Centre-Right to take swing constituencies down South, but politics is a game of Left and Right swings and the time is ripe for a Centre Left swing.

Milliband's failure to grab that extra few percent was IMO clearly down to his goofy and frankly un-Prime Ministerial persona. The man's persona was the very last line between the voter and marking the ballot, a persona so lacking in Charisma and testicular fortitude that it drove many to vote against him becoming Prime minister rather than deliberately voting against Labour itself.

"Call Me Dave" Cameron was simply way too slick and er "manly" in comparison to the manchild Milliband for a country that still fancies itself as a World Power of sorts.

Nicht Besonders
05-08-2015, 01:44 PM
I haven't looked into the numbers and constituency breakdown on this but, regarding "swing constituencies", there is a possible alternative way to look at the challenge for Labour. Blair won three elections in a row, but in every election after '97's landslide, the "winning" party, Labour or tory, has received less total votes than Kinnock's Labour got in '92, and they lost that election by some 7%, or 3 million votes. 77% was the turn out that day, which is 18% more than the supposed electoral manna of Blair managed to entice out in '01. The most recent election had a turn out of 66%, 11 points down on the '92 mark.

Now, like I say, I haven't looked at this through the constituency, FPTP lens, but this does prompt the question as to where that 11% of voters have gone? Obviously a large chunk of them could be in "safe" constituencies, but some of them have to be in other seats. All of which is a long way of saying that the assumption that Labour must appeal to "Mondeo Man" or whoever in a handful of swing seats is only one way of looking at the electoral arithmetic.

I said a few pages back that Labour ought to be looking to build a left consensus against the tories, with introducing PR or some alternative system their aim once in power with a coalition of SNP and/or others. If the aim is to get a hung parliament rather than an overall majority, then there is not the same kind of imperative to tack further right.

edit: Some good pieces on Corbynmania:

WHAT KIM KARDASHIAN CAN TELL US ABOUT JEREMY CORBYN'S SUCCESS (http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2162-what-kim-kardashian-can-tell-us-about-jeremy-corbyn-s-success)


Instead, Corbyn clings to a frankly outdated idea of the working class. There aren’t any factories any more, so Militant Michael Foot Hamas (?) Wasteland Terrible Fashion Sense. Does Corbyn really think Britain is full of people who live paycheck to paycheck and really want fairer pay deals, comprehensive healthcare free at the point of delivery, efficient government-run infrastructure services, lower energy bills and higher taxes on the financial services? I haven’t had a single conversation with a working-class person in the past year where they’ve said that. Anyway, what is “working class” anymore? I mean, even Magda has a Gucci handbag she brings with her. Yes she’s wonderful, but she doesn’t do windows- I can give you the number of the agency if you’d like?



Short Cuts - David Runciman in the LRB (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n16/david-runciman/short-cuts)


The job for which Corbyn is standing has many different facets, of which the most important remains leading his party’s MPs in Parliament. This is the bit of the job it is nearly impossible to imagine him doing successfully.

That's the problem for him if he wins. He can't lead this party.

Binn Beal
05-08-2015, 04:56 PM
The Parliamentary Labour Party is not the party. In fact, most in the PLP are indistinguishable from the Tories. What Corbyn is about is winning the hearts and minds of the members. He is leading a grassroots movement that will mean the end of many a cosy career for the Labour elite, if he is successful.

DCon
05-08-2015, 05:44 PM
I hope he succeeds

If the Blair faction truly believe that the LP has to become the Tories to succeed then the Blair faction should just join the Tories

Binn Beal
05-08-2015, 08:12 PM
Anyone know what the voting system is in the Labour Party? Is it one member, one vote or do the unions and MPs have block votes? The unions will mostly back Corbyn but the MPs regard him as the enemy - and they're correct.

DCon
05-08-2015, 09:00 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLqF-yQW8AAAvd8.jpg

Nicht Besonders
05-08-2015, 11:22 PM
Anyone know what the voting system is in the Labour Party? Is it one member, one vote or do the unions and MPs have block votes? The unions will mostly back Corbyn but the MPs regard him as the enemy - and they're correct.

Milliband did away with the electoral college system, it's now one member one vote, so MPs mainly have their input in the nomination process. It's AV too, so if no one gets 50% of the vote in the first count, second preferences are added up. I'd guess that Corbyn would need to be around the 40/45% mark to get over the line on 2nd preferences.

Binn Beal
05-08-2015, 11:41 PM
Thanks for that. I suppose the three Tory-lite candidates will transfer to one another, leaving Corbyn high and dry after the first round. The very fact of him standing has rallied the left within Labour so one way or another some good will come of it.

Sidewinder
06-08-2015, 05:44 AM
Does Corbyn really think Britain is full of people who live paycheck to paycheck and really want fairer pay deals, comprehensive healthcare free at the point of delivery, efficient government-run infrastructure services, lower energy bills and higher taxes on the financial services? I haven’t had a single conversation with a working-class person in the past year where they’ve said that.

Kindof shows just how radically cut off from the real lives of the majority of people the right-wing media commentariat bubble is.

Yes, most people are living paycheck to paycheck, increasingly people have zero-hour contracts, no job security, no work pensions, most people are struggling with the cost of living, most people are worried about the future of their children, people are worried about soaring utility and transport and food bills, declining wages, increased cost of living, rampantly out-of-control banks and the war against the NHS.

The likes of the Daily Heil try to distract people from all of this with WingNut dog-whistle rants about durty forreners but these are the real issues of concern to the bulk of the population - and nobody except Corbyn and the SNP are addressing these concerns cos they are all fixated on WingNut far-right lunacy instead.

Interesting interview between Corbyn and Marr, with a bit from Wee Eck at the end suggesting he's open to the notion of a Corbyn-SNP alliance


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7MT0AVR2kI

Binn Beal
06-08-2015, 07:01 AM
That's a very informative interview and the piece at the end with Alex Salmond shows that an alternative government for the UK is a hair's breadth away. Just as the defeat of the Scottish referendum failed to stop the momentum for independence, a defeat for Corbyn in the leadership election won't stop the anti-Tory movement within the Labour Party.

Exciting times ahead.

morticia
06-08-2015, 02:19 PM
Apparently Corbyn is threatening to offer a right to buy for those renting privately and wants to renationalise the railways. Love it! We couldn't interest him in Irish politics, should Britain fail to take him on??

Binn Beal
07-08-2015, 04:40 PM
I tried to join the Labour Party. Being rejected by the Tory-Lites really sucks.



Thanks for getting in touch.
Please note that it is a requirement that you are registered on the Electoral Register in order for you to be able to complete your registration as a supporter.
Unfortunately it was stated in the terms & conditions that your application is subject to review and unfortunately we will be unable to process your application.
I sincerely apologise and hope this helps.

Kind Regards,

Saoirse go Deo
08-08-2015, 03:22 PM
This is what he is up against

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/08/labour-centrists-like-me-not-cynics-corbynites-pure-socialism

Sidewinder
09-08-2015, 04:19 AM
This is what he is up against

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/08/labour-centrists-like-me-not-cynics-corbynites-pure-socialism

That's awful drivel. I got a couple of paragraphs in before giving up. Jeremy Corbyn will lead to Stalinist Russia and empty shelves in the shops FFS, this is how intellectually bankrupt the right really are and always have been. Woeful nonsense.

Apjp
09-08-2015, 06:56 PM
Apparently Corbyn is threatening to offer a right to buy for those renting privately and wants to renationalise the railways. Love it! We couldn't interest him in Irish politics, should Britain fail to take him on??

A lifelong SF supporter, seen with the Shinners in Westminster really.

He's a genuine character on Ireland.

Apjp
09-08-2015, 06:58 PM
That's awful drivel. I got a couple of paragraphs in before giving up. Jeremy Corbyn will lead to Stalinist Russia and empty shelves in the shops FFS, this is how intellectually bankrupt the right really are and always have been. Woeful nonsense.

:)

morticia
09-08-2015, 07:39 PM
A lifelong SF supporter, seen with the Shinners in Westminster really.

He's a genuine character on Ireland.

Good to know [emoji3]

DCon
09-08-2015, 09:33 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CL6sbFQWIAA0RVO.jpg

DCon
10-08-2015, 09:37 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CME7g4xWgAA3hFt.png

Binn Beal
10-08-2015, 10:18 PM
That's 53 to 47, as the three tories will be transferring to their front runner in a run-off, if Corbyn doesn't reach 51 on the first count.

The latest attack is on the party members with attepts to disenfranchise suspected Corbyn voters on various, spurious grounds.

BBC's Newsnight was on the attack tonight. If Corbyn beats the combined British establishment, then there is real hope for the future.

pluralist
10-08-2015, 11:30 PM
I think that Corbyn as leader will be a disaster, that it will lead to split in the UK Labour Party, and also that it increases the chance of Brexit, which is not necessarily good for the Irish economy and Irish people.

But, hey, anything to keep our ideological purity pristine!!

Edit: Watson, if he becomes Deputy Leader, and is allowed by Corbyn to have influence, is sensible and goes about things in a pragmatic way while achieving positive and progressive change, so I will not lose all hope. :D

Sidewinder
11-08-2015, 07:19 AM
Yeah and there'll be a plague of locusts and the slaughter of the firstborn and the rivers will turn to blood and the sun will go out and aliens will invade and....

People saw all that nonsense during Project Fear for #IndyRef. Youse overplayed your hand there and now the tactic is a busted flush, but sure don't let that stop you hehe.

Meanwhile, after weeks of yelping about Tories and Greens and imaginary hordes of unreconstructed Communists invading Labour, the one and only Alastair "dodgy dossier" Campbell comes out with this staggeringly bare-faced volte-face

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/alastair-campbell-urges-people-outside-labour-to-sign-up-and-vote-against-jeremy-corbyn-10448850.html


Mr Campbell also claimed that Mr Corbyn’s popularity was responsible for people rejecting the other candidates.

Truly an intellectual giant :) What a bunch of absolutely loathsome frauds New Labour were.

Binn Beal
11-08-2015, 08:18 AM
The Socialist Party could form the next government in Ireland if only they asked Denis O'Brien to be their leader but they will insist on their ideology instead of leading the country to prosperity [insert further cliches here] etc.

Sidewinder
11-08-2015, 08:45 AM
Some astonishing double-think really on display. Corbyn is attracting huge crowds of young people and disillusioned former Labour voters and the buzz and momentum is all about him. This is a Bad Thing because it means the other candidates - that have acceptably right-wing views but which for some reason the ungrateful plebs just don't like - are being ignored, and runs the risk that a huge grassroots upswell in popular support means Labour will become unelectable.

Errr, what?

Saoirse go Deo
11-08-2015, 08:57 AM
‘Extremist’ Corbyn a hit with public


http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-157d-Extremist-Corbyn-a-hit-with-public


Corbyn seems committed to putting a friendlier face on capitalism... this approach will surely fail. People should not pin their hopes on him, he would make a welcome change but anyone expecting anything systemic will be disappointed.

Saoirse go Deo
12-08-2015, 06:23 PM
Blair weighs in (hysterically)


The Labour party is in danger more mortal today than at any point in the over 100 years of its existence. I say this as someone who led the party for 13 years and has been a member for more than 40. The leadership election has turned into something far more significant than who is the next leader. It is now about whether Labour remains a party of government.


Governments can change a country. Protest movements simply agitate against those who govern. Labour in government changed this country. I don’t just mean the minimum wage, civil partnerships, massive investment in public services, lifting millions out of poverty or peace in Northern Ireland. I mean we changed the nation’s zeitgeist. We forced change on the Tories. We gave a voice to those who previously had none. We led and shaped the public discourse. And, yes, governments do things people don’t like, and in time they lose power. That is the nature of democracy.

But in a thousand ways, small or large, which anyone in government can describe, being in power can make a difference to those we represent. The reality is that in the last three months the Labour party has been changed. Its membership has virtually doubled. Some will have joined in shock at the election result; many more are now joining specifically to support the Corbyn campaign; some with heavy organisation behind them. These last two groups are not many in number, relative to the population. But relative to the membership of a political party, they’re easily big enough to mount a partial takeover. The truth is they don’t really think it matters whether Labour wins an election or not. Some actually disdain government.

Read on... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/12/even-if-hate-me-dont-take-labour-over-cliff-edge-tony-blair?CMP=fb_gu

pluralist
12-08-2015, 06:31 PM
Some astonishing double-think really on display. Corbyn is attracting huge crowds of young people and disillusioned former Labour voters and the buzz and momentum is all about him. This is a Bad Thing because it means the other candidates - that have acceptably right-wing views but which for some reason the ungrateful plebs just don't like - are being ignored, and runs the risk that a huge grassroots upswell in popular support means Labour will become unelectable.

Errr, what?


I have yet to see any convincing evidence that a large batch of former Labour voters stayed at home in May 2015, but would have voted Labour if the party was advocating a policy platform to the left of Ed Milliband. It seems to me that if anything, disillusioned Labour voters went for a right wing alternative, to UKIP. Interestingly, two Labour back-benchers who have emerged as strong critics of Corbynism, John Mann and Simon Danzcuk, were among the relatively small number of Labour MP's to significantly increase their majorities.

If there really is a previously untapped groundswell of voters who never voted before that will flock to vote for a Corbyn-led Labour, then how is that the turnout in this year's Westminster election was actually slightly higher than in the Greek parliamentary election, where it could hardly be argued that there were no left wing parties on offer?


United Kingdom general election, 2015 Turnout: 66.1%
Greek legislative election, 2015 Turnout: 63.6%

Apart from the obvious, the SNP and UKIP vote surging (although failing to translate into seats in the latter case), the main story of the election was the (predictable and predicted) decline in the Liberal Democrats vote.

Does anyone seriously imagine that a Corbyn-led Labour party will attract disillusioned former Lib Dems to it?

pluralist
12-08-2015, 06:49 PM
Blair weighs in (hysterically)



Read on... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/12/even-if-hate-me-dont-take-labour-over-cliff-edge-tony-blair?CMP=fb_gu

I didn't bother looking at the comments, but I would guess they are full of 'he's a war criminal!' invective.

It seems however much Blairites flagellate themselves over Iraq, a section of the electorate will never forgive them. Thus neatly handing victory to the Tories, the vast majority of whose MP's also voted for war with Iraq!

Nicht Besonders
12-08-2015, 08:00 PM
It's possible to think Blair is a war criminal and to vote for your local MP, especially if your local MP is someone like this terrible Corbyn chap, who voted against the war.

And even if they didn't, Labour's electoral problems are bigger than a ten year old vote about a war thousands of miles away.

Saoirse go Deo
12-08-2015, 08:40 PM
I didn't bother looking at the comments, but I would guess they are full of 'he's a war criminal!' invective.

It seems however much Blairites flagellate themselves over Iraq, a section of the electorate will never forgive them. Thus neatly handing victory to the Tories, the vast majority of whose MP's also voted for war with Iraq!

Why should they be forgiven? Some things can't, and shouldn't be. Mass slaughter in an illegal war is surely one of them

pluralist
12-08-2015, 08:58 PM
Why should they be forgiven? Some things can't, and shouldn't be. Mass slaughter in an illegal war is surely one of them

Dans ses Úcrits, un sage Italien
Dit que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien.

Binn Beal
12-08-2015, 10:00 PM
According to a report on Newsnight (BBC 2) it appears that the right-wing MPs opposing Corbyn have formed an unofficial group to stop Corbyn. Having failed to discredit the candidate, they are now attacking the members who are taking the party back from the MPs.

NÝ neart go cur le cÚile!

Shaadi
12-08-2015, 10:37 PM
I didn't bother looking at the comments, but I would guess they are full of 'he's a war criminal!' invective.

It seems however much Blairites flagellate themselves over Iraq, a section of the electorate will never forgive them. Thus neatly handing victory to the Tories, the vast majority of whose MP's also voted for war with Iraq!
Says you, ignoring the reality that Labour were elected again after Blair had led the UK into War in Iraq.

Ignoring the reality that if the SNP hadn't wiped Labour in Scotland and that if Labour hadn't been led in the last GE campaign by someone who comes across as a barely able to tie his own shoelaces. That then Labour would have had no problem beating the Tories comfortably.

pluralist
12-08-2015, 11:20 PM
Says you, ignoring the reality that Labour were elected again after Blair had led the UK into War in Iraq.

Ignoring the reality that if the SNP hadn't wiped Labour in Scotland and that if Labour hadn't been led in the last GE campaign by someone who comes across as a barely able to tie his own shoelaces. That then Labour would have had no problem beating the Tories comfortably.

I'm not ignoring any of those realities, I'd just like to know what the Corbynites plans are to get into power and help the poor that are currently being screwed by a Cabinet of hard right neo-cons that would have made Thatcher blush.

Frankie Lee
12-08-2015, 11:38 PM
Says you, ignoring the reality that Labour were elected again after Blair had led the UK into War in Iraq.

Ignoring the reality that if the SNP hadn't wiped Labour in Scotland and that if Labour hadn't been led in the last GE campaign by someone who comes across as a barely able to tie his own shoelaces. That then Labour would have had no problem beating the Tories comfortably.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mqFsVUIQrg

Shaadi
13-08-2015, 12:21 AM
I'm not ignoring any of those realities, I'd just like to know what the Corbynites plans are to get into power and help the poor that are currently being screwed by a Cabinet of hard right neo-cons that would have made Thatcher blush.
Regardless of what the Corbynites spout, the UK Labour party is a Coalition of interests dominated by the Blairite Tory-like careerist Parliamentary Party.

The Blairite Wing supported Welfare Cuts making themselves look indistinguishable from the Tories and in so doing they were informing the electorate that they were in fact Tory in instinct.

The Blairites can spout soft-left rhetoric in opposition, the reality in voters minds is that Blairite Labour is every bit as careerist and utterly cynically as the Irish Labour Party.

Cynical careerist politics burns electoral support. Even the Tories have to pretend they stand for something, even the Tories pay lip service to the NHS etc.

Corbyn will not drag Labour back to the 80s, he doesn't have the power to overcome the Parliamentary Party and will have no choice but to compromise with the careerist and centrists. What he can do is he can project a caring and genuine image for Labour, something that's very electorally advantageous and something that stands in mark contrast to the dishonest slimey faux sincerity of Cameron which has been exposed by Tory policy since the election.

The UK electorate will be ready to sufficiently swing to Labour after a dose of 5 years of Tory single party Govt.

Labour have an open goal in front of them. With a Blairite Labour there would be little point in people bothering their arses changing one bunch of Tories for another bunch of Tories.

morticia
13-08-2015, 07:01 AM
I'm not ignoring any of those realities, I'd just like to know what the Corbynites plans are to get into power and help the poor that are currently being screwed by a Cabinet of hard right neo-cons that would have made Thatcher blush.

Actually, given that the current Tories are well to the right of Thatcher, Labour would be totally missing an opportunity in not going left. Because former centrists are going to become seriously effed off. Then, they will be looking for an alternative, and not a Tory Lite one either. Despite Scotland and other huge electoral changes, the Tories will not remain in power for ever (barring a coup). The Brits are more conservative than the Irish, and much more change averse. But when they DO decide enough is enough, watch out...

Sidewinder
13-08-2015, 03:58 PM
Like I said a couple of weeks ago there's been an extraordinary explosion of passionate, intelligent and bloody entertaining textual, graphical and audio-visual content all across t'Interwoogie directly inspired by the Corbyn campaign. It is fascinating to observe the entire zeitgeist transform in front of our very eyes.

This is a a couple of good examples I've been pointed to just today - both take the arguments of the right-wing and mercilessly fillet them, exposing them in the process for what they have always been - mouth-frothingly insane drivel

First up a very funny satirical piece by blogger Mark Fiddaman

https://markfiddaman.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/the-anti-jeremy-corbyn-people-how-they-sound-to-me/

And then a very funny new star of the Twitterverse, #CorbynWarnings

https://twitter.com/CorbynWarnings

Sidewinder
14-08-2015, 07:36 PM
I know hardly anyone in Ireland actually cares...but for a variety of reasons you should, a lot...anyways, the latest on the Corbryn Front

This one blatantly satirises why the Blairite faction are despised and going nowhere

http://eveningharold.com/2015/08/14/blair-claims-corbyn-could-destroy-labour-in-45-minutes/

And here's a decent piece by Mark Steel

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/with-hundreds-of-thousands-of-new-supporters-labour-is-on-the-verge-of-something-big--what-a-complete-disaster-10454504.html

Nicht Besonders
14-08-2015, 08:27 PM
Great news tonight for Corbyn camp, more popular across the electorate than the other three. Appealing especially to the Ukippers.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/14/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-most-popular-candidate-voters-all-parties

DCon
15-08-2015, 09:13 AM
If all else fails, bring out the anti Semite charge


http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/CMZb_yBWcAIqvW0.jpg

C. Flower
15-08-2015, 11:17 AM
If all else fails, bring out the anti Semite charge


http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/CMZb_yBWcAIqvW0.jpg

Pro Palestine, is it ?

C. Flower
15-08-2015, 11:27 AM
Great news tonight for Corbyn camp, more popular across the electorate than the other three. Appealing especially to the Ukippers.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/14/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-most-popular-candidate-voters-all-parties

Both workers and small businesspeople have realised there is no future for them (other than grinding, disempowered poverty) under the Reaganite/Thatcherite regime that dominates.

Britain is having its belated Podemos / SYRIZA moment. (And also, less positively, the movement to the populist right (ANEL, UKIP, etc.) It is great that finally the light has dawned. But by large, the aspiration is a return to an illusory ideal social democrat world of the late 20th century boom - full employment, union rate wages, good services, less militarism. But Corbyn, SYRIZA and Podemos don't actually have a practical alternative, and the things lost will not be regained without a ferocious battle (Welfare State was a reaction to the alternative post war - bolshevik style revolution). There is no knowing how long it will take to get to that stage of realisation.

C. Flower
15-08-2015, 05:49 PM
This is why Corbyn is winning - hungry woman on zero benefits fined over ú300 for taking a pack of Mars bars from a supermarket.

http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/famished-woman-fined-%C2%A3330-for-stealing-a-75p-pack-of-mars-bars-after-benefits-stopped/ar-BBlLxgi?ocid=mailsignoutmd

Nicht Besonders
15-08-2015, 11:29 PM
Both workers and small businesspeople have realised there is no future for them (other than grinding, disempowered poverty) under the Reaganite/Thatcherite regime that dominates.

Britain is having its belated Podemos / SYRIZA moment. (And also, less positively, the movement to the populist right (ANEL, UKIP, etc.) It is great that finally the light has dawned. But by large, the aspiration is a return to an illusory ideal social democrat world of the late 20th century boom - full employment, union rate wages, good services, less militarism. But Corbyn, SYRIZA and Podemos don't actually have a practical alternative, and the things lost will not be regained without a ferocious battle (Welfare State was a reaction to the alternative post war - bolshevik style revolution). There is no knowing how long it will take to get to that stage of realisation.
Yep, am under no illusions, but it's fascinating to see the start of what may turn out to be something of a leftward swing having grown up under capitalist realism.

C. Flower
16-08-2015, 10:29 AM
Yep, am under no illusions, but it's fascinating to see the start of what may turn out to be something of a leftward swing having grown up under capitalist realism.

Yes, it is a leftward swing - people inevitably, after the long period of reaction from the 1970s to now, are having to relearn the political lessons about social democracy and are testing it out.

It might be a very rapid process, or a slow one, but reality will bite in due course :)

DCon
16-08-2015, 09:44 PM
Balairites must be getting desperate


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMjQseVWsAAef5l.jpg

pluralist
16-08-2015, 10:01 PM
Last big gun misfires...ok so would I be correct in saying that pretty much everyone in Labour that has ever served in government has declined to back Corbyn? Shouldn't that concern Corbyn supporters just a tiny amount?

Frankie Lee
16-08-2015, 10:17 PM
Last big gun misfires...ok so would I be correct in saying that pretty much everyone in Labour that has ever served in government has declined to back Corbyn? Shouldn't that concern Corbyn supporters just a tiny amount?

I'd imagine they'd be more concerned if the likes of Mandelson or Straw and any of the rest of them were in support of him.

pluralist
16-08-2015, 10:57 PM
I'd imagine they'd be more concerned if the likes of Mandelson or Straw and any of the rest of them were in support of him.

If they are to be consistent, then they will also have to repudiate the minimum wage, Sure Start, pensioner benefits, the Scottish and Welsh parliaments, the Northern Irish peace process, end of Section 28, etc.

Sidewinder
17-08-2015, 12:15 AM
ROFL, these idiots really are utterly clueless about the feeling on the ground, aren't they?

Every ridiculously over-the-top insane screech from the right wing has only made Corbyn more popular with the latest YouGov poll saying he'll win the first round outright on 53% without any need for a second or third round at all. So then they wheel out Gordo.

I suppose they probably think Brown's last-minute intervention was crucial in the #IndyRef so if it worked then it has to work this time, right?

And that's the problem with the right-wing all over. By definition they are reactionary and stuck in their own mythology of an imaginary version of the 1990s, where Labour were only "electable" after Phony Tony turned them into the Tories...nothing to do with how rubbish the Tories were, the endless sleaze, corruption and in-fighting, how tired people were of them by then. Pretty much anyone could have beaten the Tories in 1997, Bliar was just very polished and seemingly-charismatic so won convincingly. But all these years later after Iraq, Bliar's multi-million-dollar Middle East contracts, and the shambolic bumbling of Brown's government....the Blairites were largely just salesmen. Superficially charming, add some sugar to the pill to make it easier to swallow, but still selling the same old Tory snakeoil. But that doesn't fit with their own narrative about themselves, and they are utterly bewildered why all the old sales tactics just don't seem to be working any more.

Still, fun to watch their ridiculous antics as they try to grapple with reality and fail miserably. *gets popcorn*

pluralist
17-08-2015, 12:23 AM
So Gordon Brown is right wing...lol, I truly learn a new thing every day from this site!


By definition they are reactionary and stuck in their own mythology of an imaginary version of the 1990s, where Labour were only "electable" after Phony Tony turned them into the Tories...nothing to do with how rubbish the Tories were, the endless sleaze, corruption and in-fighting, how tired people were of them by then. Pretty much anyone could have beaten the Tories in 1997, Bliar was just very polished and seemingly-charismatic so won convincingly.

'Pretty much anyone could have beaten the Tories in 1997'

Strange, then, that Labour under Kinnock couldn't manage it 1992, against a Tory party led by a man regularly lampooned in the media as the Grey Major, and when the UK economy was the depths of recession (unlike in 1997, when it was growing), and the Tory sleaze outbreaks had already kicked off! (though perhaps not reaching their apogee until the death of the unfortunate Stephen Milligan, in late 1993 IIRC).

Shaadi
17-08-2015, 12:25 AM
ROFL, these idiots really are utterly clueless about the feeling on the ground, aren't they?

Every ridiculously over-the-top insane screech from the right wing has only made Corbyn more popular with the latest YouGov poll saying he'll win the first round outright on 53% without any need for a second or third round at all. So then they wheel out Gordo.

I suppose they probably think Brown's last-minute intervention was crucial in the #IndyRef so if it worked then it has to work this time, right?

And that's the problem with the right-wing all over. By definition they are reactionary and stuck in their own mythology of an imaginary version of the 1990s, where Labour were only "electable" after Phony Tony turned them into the Tories...nothing to do with how rubbish the Tories were, the endless sleaze, corruption and in-fighting, how tired people were of them by then. Pretty much anyone could have beaten the Tories in 1997, Bliar was just very polished and seemingly-charismatic so won convincingly. But all these years later after Iraq, Bliar's multi-million-dollar Middle East contracts, and the shambolic bumbling of Brown's government....the Blairites were largely just salesmen. Superficially charming, add some sugar to the pill to make it easier to swallow, but still selling the same old Tory snakeoil. But that doesn't fit with their own narrative about themselves, and they are utterly bewildered why all the old sales tactics just don't seem to be working any more.

Still, fun to watch their ridiculous antics as they try to grapple with reality and fail miserably. *gets popcorn*There's a delicious irony in Brown ( who led Labour to a crashing defeat that they still haven't recovered from ) telling people that he knows how to make Labour electable.:)

The Blairites are the definition of obnoxiousness.

pluralist
17-08-2015, 12:37 AM
There's a delicious irony in Brown ( who led Labour to a crashing defeat that they still haven't recovered from ) telling people that he knows how to make Labour electable.:)

Not sure if I'd agree with that. Seems to me it was Milliband who led Labour to a crashing defeat just this year. In 2010, The Tories had to cobble together a coalition with the Lib Dems to make the numbers stack up. It wasn't actually all that bad a result for Labour considering the parlous state of the economy at that time.


The Blairites are the definition of obnoxiousness.

It's pretty obnoxious, frankly, for Corbynites to demand that everyone fall into line under their leader given he is a guy who has rebelled against the party whip more than most people have had hot dinners. Not that he was necessarily wrong on many of those votes, but what kind of message does it send out for party unity? He will not be in any position, with moral authority, to demand that his MP's back his policies.

Sidewinder
17-08-2015, 12:41 AM
Typical wingnut gibberish. 1992 != 1997. Jesus :rolleyes:

Anyways, yes I know one is WingsOverScotland therefore ever-so-slightly biased against SLab, but Crash Broon's incoherent and rambling intervention has been greeted in Scotland with a sort of incredulous "da fuq?"

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-suicide-note/

http://www.scotsman.com/news/lesley-riddoch-gordon-brown-doesn-t-get-it-1-3860343

Labour need to make some headway in Scotland - to either win back some seats from the SNP or to come to an understanding with the SNP for a confidence-and-supply arrangement if necessary - if they are to win a UK election. Yet the Blairite loons are going out of their way to alienate Scottish voters even further. Yeah, genius lads.

Neo-Labour just don't get it, and never will.

pluralist
17-08-2015, 04:42 PM
Typical wingnut gibberish. 1992 != 1997. Jesus :rolleyes:


Neo-Labour just don't get it, and never will.


"Neo-Labour just don't get it, and never will."

Blair is many things, some of which revolt me, but he is rarely wrong about what the British electorate will actually vote into power.

pluralist
17-08-2015, 05:38 PM
I will say this for Corbyn - as far as I can determine, the anti-semitism thing is an unacceptable smear. I have seen no evidence whatever that he personally harbours any racist or anti-semitic views. His involvement in various anti-war protests and movements may well have brought him into contact with people who do, but guilt by association is a risky game to play on such matters.

Edit: support for Corbyn (at least on the issue of the anti-semitism slur) from a surprising source, Conservative MP Alan Duncan:


Alan Duncan ‏@AlanDuncanMP 7 mins7 minutes ago

Ch4 News interview tonight trying to smeer him as anti-Semitic - Jeremy Corbyn 10 : Cathy Newman 0.
3 retweets 2 favourites

C. Flower
17-08-2015, 07:53 PM
"Neo-Labour just don't get it, and never will."

Blair is many things, some of which revolt me, but he is rarely wrong about what the British electorate will actually vote into power.

Blair's election was little to do with Labour, apart from taking a free ride to power off the organisation while seeking to terminate it as a party of the working class.

pluralist
17-08-2015, 09:02 PM
Blair's election was little to do with Labour, apart from taking a free ride to power off the organisation while seeking to terminate it as a party of the working class.

Fortunately, the micro-left doesn't get to rewrite history, or define what is or isn't in the interests of the 'working class', or define what is or isn't 'authentic Labour'.

The way I see it, the ones taking a 'free ride' are the ultra-leftist trendies who strike poses while repudiating all the good things the hated Blairite regime actually did while in office (I listed some of them above).

Shaadi
17-08-2015, 10:07 PM
Not sure if I'd agree with that. Seems to me it was Milliband who led Labour to a crashing defeat just this year. In 2010, The Tories had to cobble together a coalition with the Lib Dems to make the numbers stack up. It wasn't actually all that bad a result for Labour considering the parlous state of the economy at that time.I'm a great believer in actual numbers over opinions. Brown polled 29% with Scotland still on board. Milliband polled 30.4% after both his and Brown's deceit over the Scottish referendum came home to roost. To establish why Labour failed to win the GE you must look at what happened. The Tories only rose 0.8% despite the implosion of the Lib Dems -15.2% and Labour only rose 1.5% despite that huge Lib Dem fall. Was that Milliband's fault and if so, why?

Let's examine the Red Ed line, if that was the case then Labour would have been mopping up the working class vote that UKIP took. A link between Corbyn support and UKIP leaning voters has been established in polling.

If Red Ed was leading a party that was too left for voters, then he wouldn't have been surrounded by the Blairites in the top echelons of that party who're the other contenders for the leadership of Labour. There wouldn't be a nest of Blairites that need clearing out if Labour had been too left for the voters in the GE.

If Labour were too left to win the last election then why did the Tories only pick up 0.8% in the election?

Labour lost the last election for the same reasons the Lib Dems lost so many seats. They were led by a chinless wonder, they stood for nothing only cynical careerism. The parties that gained significicantly percentage wise in the last election were conviction parties. The Greens, SNP, UKIP.





It's pretty obnoxious, frankly, for Corbynites to demand that everyone fall into line under their leader given he is a guy who has rebelled against the party whip more than most people have had hot dinners. Not that he was necessarily wrong on many of those votes, but what kind of message does it send out for party unity? He will not be in any position, with moral authority, to demand that his MP's back his policies.If he can't rule his Parliamentary Party then he'll be out on his ear.

You'd no problem with Blair imposing his regime on the party, so it's s bit rich complaining that someone who's likely to gain a ringing endorsement from Labour supporters should have the faith placed in him disrespected.

Labour's problems begin and end with the voters judgement that they stand for nothing but Tory lite neo-liberalism.

There are parallels between how the Irish Labour Party portrays itself and how the English Labour party presents itself.

A party that stands for chasing the middle class vote and SFA else is not going to gain the traditional C2de vote that is the bread and butter of Left Wing politics.

C. Flower
17-08-2015, 10:29 PM
Fortunately, the micro-left doesn't get to rewrite history, or define what is or isn't in the interests of the 'working class', or define what is or isn't 'authentic Labour'.

The way I see it, the ones taking a 'free ride' are the ultra-leftist trendies who strike poses while repudiating all the good things the hated Blairite regime actually did while in office (I listed some of them above).

:)

Where is the"re-writing of history" ?

Or discussing "authentic labour" ?

Straw men !

Views about whether what Blair did are "good" or "bad" are subjective. The objective question is - in whose class interests did Blair act ? Blair and Co. severed Labour from its class roots and continued with the Thatcherite privatisation and militarisation project.

pluralist
17-08-2015, 10:52 PM
:)

Where is the"re-writing of history" ?

Or discussing "authentic labour" ?

Straw men !

Views about whether what Blair did are "good" or "bad" are subjective. The objective question is - in whose class interests did Blair act ? Blair and Co. severed Labour from its class roots and continued with the Thatcherite privatisation and militarisation project.

"Thatcherite militarisation project" I don't even know what that means. I'm not convinced, objectively, that it means anything at all.

To me, the objective question is why some people want to convince themselves that Labour suddenly betrayed its roots and turned sharply rightwards from the Blair era onwards, when all the evidence suggests it is and was a broad church for most of its history, except, notably, during the times when it was least electorally successful - in the early 1980s under Michael Foot, and likely again from 2015-? under Jeremy Corbyn.

You say it is Blair and Co. that "severed Labour from its class roots". It could just as easily be argued that it was Michael Foot & leftism that drove the C1 voters into the arms of Thatcherism in the 1980s.

Shaadi raises a good point about why so many of the CDE voters are these days drawn to UKIP. I'm not claiming to have the answer, but it seems to me that whenever Labour becomes perceived as too metropolitan/elitist/champagne socialist, then it loses a chunk of the working class vote. But it is difficult to argue - in fact it seems extraordinary to me that anyone would believe - that the Labour PM that won three General Elections in a row is the one to blame! How can it be argued that Labour 'lost' the working class vote in the 1990s and will now win it all back, as though by miracle, under Corbyn? Ridiculous!

Shaadi
17-08-2015, 11:34 PM
@Pluralist. Blair governed through the good times. Bertie also won 3 in a row. Clinton did the double. The mid 90s and early noughties were a brilliant time to be in power. It was all boom no bust.

Blair's Labour burst on the scene 25 years ago. A quarter of a century of massive change has occurred since. That once positive period for the average person has been replaced by a rat-race world where the average punter is competing against third world wages. A world where politics has been exposed for its cynicism.

The "everyone is middle-class" dream of the late nineties-early naughties is over.

Blairism in the eyes of the UK electorate is as tattered as Bertieism is in Ireland.

Sidewinder
18-08-2015, 05:02 AM
So they've wheeled out Bliar, Mandelson, David Miliband, and Crash Broon. The media have tried the old reliable peado and anti-semite smears.

Where next for Project Fear? What left is there to fling in the vain hope something might stick?

And if they use up all their ammo at this early stage, what will they possibly have left in the bottom of the barrel to scrape up and throw at him once he is leader?

pluralist
18-08-2015, 05:21 AM
And if they use up all their ammo at this early stage, what will they possibly have left in the bottom of the barrel to scrape up and throw at him once he is leader?

Crucifixion?

morticia
18-08-2015, 07:12 AM
So they've wheeled out Bliar, Mandelson, David Miliband, and Crash Broon. The media have tried the old reliable peado and anti-semite smears.

Where next for Project Fear? What left is there to fling in the vain hope something might stick?

And if they use up all their ammo at this early stage, what will they possibly have left in the bottom of the barrel to scrape up and throw at him once he is leader?

Has anyone considered the possibility that Corbyn or supporters are actually welcoming the interventions?? The discredited warmonger in particular won't be doing him any harm at the polls.

Yes, the Conservatives are loving this (BoJo was in one of the broadsheets yesterday going on about Chrimbo coming early, metaphorically speaking). But actually, an opposition that has the guts to point out that they are a bunch of elitist tossers might gain traction; Foot and Kinnock failed during the economic good times. When the bottom 50 percent are having pay and conditions eroded, it may be very, very different.

DCon
18-08-2015, 09:03 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMuBizWUEAEAvZh.jpg

DCon
18-08-2015, 09:04 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMt95hkUwAA1ZvL.jpg

Nicht Besonders
20-08-2015, 09:09 AM
Lots of chatter this morning about people being rejected by Labour after registering to vote

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=labour%20rejected&src=typd

Is this how you solve a problem like Corbyn?

Binn Beal
20-08-2015, 09:42 AM
The Guardian anti-Corbyn campaign came up with a good one this morning.
If you vote for Corbyn, the election will be challenged in the courts by one of the toryite candidates so you would be better off voting for one of them instead.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/19/leak-eveal-labour-ignored-legal-membership

Nicht Besonders
20-08-2015, 04:06 PM
Ironic that the thread title refers to a "purge" of Blairites should Corbyn win, as it's now the Blairites purging swathes of party members, union members and newly signed up supporters.

One theory I've seen mooted is that Labour's establishment don't believe this can stop Corbyn winning the election, but they hope they can stop him from winning on the first count. The thinking among these (deluded IMO) sorts is that this will make deposing him at the nearest opportunity easier.

I think it shows how desperate and desperately out-of-touch New Labour are that they could think this is a smart strategy. It's almost as bad as Peter Mandelson's attempt to persuade Cooper, Burnham and Kendall all to withdraw from the contest prior to ballots being sent out. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11806498/Lord-Mandelsons-failed-mass-resignation-bid-to-attempt-to-stop-Jeremy-Corbyn-winning-Labour-leadership.html)


The peer is understood to have believed that the party might suspend the contest if there was only one candidate, but he had to back down when officials said it would mean Mr Corbyn won.

Almost.

:D

pluralist
21-08-2015, 03:04 AM
Ironic that the thread title refers to a "purge" of Blairites should Corbyn win, as it's now the Blairites purging swathes of party members, union members and newly signed up supporters.


Define 'Blairite'.

Sidewinder
21-08-2015, 06:05 AM
Blairite far-right-wing authoritarian anti-democratic warmongering imperialist scum attempting to sabotage their own leadership election because the plebs were going to give "the wrong answer".

I did wonder what they would try next when all the usual smears had failed!

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/michael-chessum/great-labour-purge-is-underway

http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2015/08/20/the-labour-purge-is-underway-and-theyve-banned-me-from-voting-corbyn-image/

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b4b739a-4755-11e5-af2f-4d6e0e5eda22.html#axzz3jQZO4I7J

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11814064/LabourPurge-Corbyn-supporters-hit-out-after-being-blocked-from-voting-in-leadership-election.html

Numerous more anecdotes available online. Apparently the only way to appeal is to errrr.....apply to become a full member


I was told that if I wanted to find out why I was disqualified I'd have to join as a full member - so a party which doesn't think I share their aims and values wants me to join it in order to tell me why they think I shouldn't be a member!!! You couldn't make it up!

Has New Labour just, in rather spectacular style, committed suicide?

C. Flower
21-08-2015, 09:21 AM
Define 'Blairite'.

MI5 puppet ?

Tony Blair, former prime minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was born Anthony Charles Lynton Blair on May 6, 1953, in Edinburgh, Scotland. Despite being born in Scotland, Blair spent the better part of his childhood in Durham, England, where he attended the Chorister School.
Blair's father, Leo Charles Blair, was a prominent attorney who ran for Parliament as a Tory in 1963, when Tony was 10 years old. Devastatingly, Leo had a stroke right before the election, rendering him unable to speak. As Leo convalesced over the next three years, Tony and his siblings, older brother Bill and younger sister Sarah, learned to fend for themselves and adapt to stressful financial difficulties. From an early age, Blair felt compelled to follow in his father's footsteps and one day achieve the political goals his father was forced to abandon.


David Shayler – Tony Blair was an MI5 Spy

Tony Gosling
Oct 20th 2005
There has been much speculation as to how the most right wing and powerful elements in the Labour Party used to be such left wing radicals.
Did they have a change of heart?
Apparently not, according to Ex MI5 Counter-Terrorism Officer David Shayler (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davidshayler).
It would also explain why the spooks have been so busy trying to blacken Shayler’s name.
Ex MI5 anti-terrorism officer David Shayler, who spent three days with us in Bristol recently, when his car got brake failure while parked up at the University, said at his Cube cinema presentation that he had access to information contained in Blair’s Security File while in ‘the service’.
“Tony Blair worked for MI5 before he became Labour leader.”- Evening Post.


The day after Shayler was arrested in France the Mail on Sunday came out with the Headline ‘Shayler Could Bring Down Government’.
On the Monday, Shayler says, Blair Summoned the editor to Downing Street and asked him into the Garden (to avoid bugs) demanding to know what David Shayler knew about him (Tony Blair).
The editor wisely explained that due to a government injunction he could not tell Mr Blair anything that Shayler knew or he’d be breaking Blair’s government’s own injunction.
Tony Blair, according to David Shayler, had documents in his file which clearly meant he had been spying on his comrades in CND and The Labour Party before being made Party Leader – which explains his so-called radical left activities as a young man – he was a spy reporting back on Communist ‘subversives’ in CND and in the Labour Party!
Shayler says his secret state agent past would make Tony Blair utterly unreliable to hold public office – particularly in the Labour party and would make him a puppet of the hawks in MI6.


https://outofthisworldx.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/48596-blair-bmp.jpg?w=400&h=376

Nicht Besonders
21-08-2015, 11:22 AM
Define 'Blairite'.

Cannot be bothered going down that avenue tbh cos it's tedious and not all that relevant to anything, was just pointing to the irony that the scare tactics coming from the right of the party regarding Corbyn a couple of weeks ago have happened to describe what the right of the party are doing now to the electorate who, heathens that they are, seem to prefer Corbyn over the other three Thunderbirds.

If you want to give us your definition, by all means do so. You started the thread and used the term in the thread title, I was just following the usage there, where I take it to be short-hand for the right of the party.

C. Flower
21-08-2015, 01:14 PM
Blairite far-right-wing authoritarian anti-democratic warmongering imperialist scum attempting to sabotage their own leadership election because the plebs were going to give "the wrong answer".

I did wonder what they would try next when all the usual smears had failed!

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/michael-chessum/great-labour-purge-is-underway

http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2015/08/20/the-labour-purge-is-underway-and-theyve-banned-me-from-voting-corbyn-image/

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b4b739a-4755-11e5-af2f-4d6e0e5eda22.html#axzz3jQZO4I7J

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11814064/LabourPurge-Corbyn-supporters-hit-out-after-being-blocked-from-voting-in-leadership-election.html

Numerous more anecdotes available online. Apparently the only way to appeal is to errrr.....apply to become a full member

Has New Labour just, in rather spectacular style, committed suicide?

Is Labour working from some kind of list ? Compiled by whom ?

Some rejectees -


Hattie Craig is a recent graduate from the University of Birmingham, and a relatively prominent activist the National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts – the biggest organisation on the student left. “I was inspired by the Jeremy Corbyn campaign,” she says “and the possibility that Labour could truly represent and fight for those most oppressed in society.” Like many others, she has received an email stating that she was rejected because “we have reason to believe that you do not support the aims and values of the Labour Party or you are a supporter of an organisation opposed to the Labour Party.” But, Craig tells me, she has never been a member of any other electoral project – or indeed any other party at all.
A large number of the rejections appear to be students. Rachel O’Brien is also a student activist and a current student in Birmingham. She describes herself as “heavily critical of the Labour Party and their current policies – but not opposed to the party as a whole”, and has, like Craig, never been a member of another party. “I think they are missing a nuance there.”
Marienna Pope-Wiedemann, another rejectee, is a freelance writer and producer who was also politically active as a student and has continued activities outside Labour. But she is no longer in anything else and, as she points out, being active outside Labour is rather inevitable: “most people are active through organisations other than Labour because the Labour Party has been so long disconnected from community struggle and afraid of taking on the big issues,” she says. “This is the first time my generation has seen Labour stand up and fight for ideals most of them are too afraid even to speak of anymore.”
Bernard Goyder’s example looks even stranger. Now a financial journalist, Goyder was a student activist in 2010, and then involved in Occupy and a number of housing campaigns. “I was involved in Young Labour as a sixth former, and joined properly in 2010, days after the election. I rang the party to notify them of my new address, and found that it had lapsed a few years ago.” Now his application to re-join has been rejected.

C. Flower
21-08-2015, 01:26 PM
J'sus wept.

"Operation Ice Pick"


In a purge being referred to internally as ‘Operation: Ice Pick’ (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/no-really-jeremy-corbyn-going-win-leadership-election), Labour HQ is purging the party of suspected ‘entryists’. The name is a particularly sick joke, referencing the weapon-of-choice in the 1940 assassination of Leon Trotsky (http://history1900s.about.com/od/1940s/qt/trotskydeath.htm) by Stalinists.Supporters of Corbyn have been consistently derided as “Trots” throughout the campaign.
Comedians Mark Steel (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-contest-mark-steel-becomes-latest-leftwinger-to-be-barred-from-voting-10452628.html) and Jeremy Hardy (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/20/labour-membership-jeremy-corbyn-purge), along with renowned author Marcus Chown (https://twitter.com/marcuschown/status/634259439625859072) and ‘Spirit of ’45’ director Ken Loach (https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/michael-chessum/great-labour-purge-is-underway) – all have been banned from voting by the Labour Purge. Why? Marcus Chown joined the executive of the National Health Action Party in the 2015 election because his priority was saving the NHS, and he felt that was the best way to highlight the issue. Jeremy Hardy and Mark Steel have supported fundraisers for the Green party in the past. Ken Loach was once a member of the now defunct Socialist Alliance. As Mark Steel (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/every-club-should-be-like-labour--you-cant-join-as-a-new-member-unless-youre-already-a-member-10428421.html) so aptly puts it: ” Labour – you can’t join as a new member unless you’re already a member.”
In the first wave of the wider purge today, many more lost their vote. In a process reminiscent of the McCarthy witch hunts of the 1960s, it appears that anyone with (or suspected of having) left-wing sympathies is being ousted from the party. Twitter user Rebecca Day (https://twitter.com/RebeccaaDay/status/634317162849665025) reported this appeal among members of the Oxford University Labour club:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM2MFZqWIAAd0T7.jpg

Nicht Besonders
21-08-2015, 09:36 PM
Newsnight covering the "verification process" now, apparently it amounts to googling applicants names and seeing what comes up. Very sophisticated.

Some 3000 applications rejected according to the report. What's that? Roughly 0.5% of the supposed 600k strong electorate? Not as much as it seemed, and you'd wonder what the point of it is, as it's detracting from the leadership debate and contest.

Andy Burnham also talking about a legal challenge because of "infiltration", whatever that means.

Quote from anonymous "senior Labour figure" closing the report saying "if you open up something as a free-for-all, you can't, once it's started, say it's too 'free' or too 'all'".

C. Flower
21-08-2015, 10:23 PM
Newsnight covering the "verification process" now, apparently it amounts to googling applicants names and seeing what comes up. Very sophisticated.

Some 3000 applications rejected according to the report. What's that? Roughly 0.5% of the supposed 600k strong electorate? Not as much as it seemed, and you'd wonder what the point of it is, as it's detracting from the leadership debate and contest.

Andy Burnham also talking about a legal challenge because of "infiltration", whatever that means.

Quote from anonymous "senior Labour figure" closing the report saying "if you open up something as a free-for-all, you can't, once it's started, say it's too 'free' or too 'all'".

The water is being pre-muddied in anticipation of a Corbyn win perhaps ?

Nicht Besonders
21-08-2015, 10:35 PM
That'd be an explanation. I can see no real benefit to it in the immediate term for Labour or any of the other three. It makes the process look even more shambolic than its been already.

C. Flower
21-08-2015, 10:39 PM
That'd be an explanation. I can see no real benefit to it in the immediate term for Labour or any of the other three.

I think this was not meant to happen. :) The governing class in Britain has got completely used to having it their own way. Shock and panic set in !

pluralist
22-08-2015, 02:53 AM
MI5 puppet ?

You are into conspiracy theory with this, I would not be surprised if there are right wing blogs out there claiming that Corbyn was a Soviet agent - that doesn't make them any more credible that the above. Not everything on the internet is true.

Sidewinder
22-08-2015, 04:13 AM
Just a random comment from this afternoon's browsing about, reading comments n blogs etc...

What exactly is wrong with WingNuts? It baffles me, it really does. Their brains don't actually seem to function in a normal rational way. There's no such thing in their world as examining the data and drawing or extrapolating some rational conclusions. In fact there's really nothing that could be described as "thinking" at all! On article after article, blog after blog, forum after forum the WingNuts just divebomb threads with the exact same three or four cliches and slogans, then disappear into the night. And it doesn't matter how often some raving idiocy is comprehensively debunked, 10 minutes later another lunatic WingNut will be along divebombing the thread with the exact same gibberish.

Endless repetition of mindless, fact-free and unsupportable-by-reality mantras. It really does seem to be all they are capable of.

How on earth did such a bunch of imbecilic spasmodroids end up dominating politics for the last 40 years? Mad, Ted.

Sidewinder
22-08-2015, 07:34 AM
Naked panic and terror in the Torygraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11817162/Jeremy-Corbyn-must-be-stopped.html

As a Nordie I find the yelping about Adams hilarious, albeit totally bizarre. What planet are these right-wing loons living on? Have the events of the last 20 years really just completely passed them by? Are they really utterly unaware that Adams and McGuinness have been regularly meeting with Prime Ministers, Presidents and Royalty from multiple nations for over 20 fncking years now? Including Blair, Cameron, Charlie Windsor and Her Maj herself? Really bonkers stuff.

It's funny to watch though...a few weeks ago the WingNuts were all smug chortling and blowharding about how a Corbyn victory would guarantee Tory government forever. Now that they've seen not just his policies, but his ability to argue his corner, and the extraordinary public and online reaction to his campaign, they are absolutely terrified that he actually might win the Labour leadership, tear their gibberish nonsense to shreds, and launch a drive to roll back the advances of the neo-liberal nutjobs in recent decades.

Their counter-revolution just got countered.

Binn Beal
22-08-2015, 07:40 AM
998
From Matt in today's Telegraph

C. Flower
22-08-2015, 09:32 AM
You are into conspiracy theory with this, I would not be surprised if there are right wing blogs out there claiming that Corbyn was a Soviet agent - that doesn't make them any more credible that the above. Not everything on the internet is true.

Such as the portrayal of Blair as a socialist ?

The term conspiracy theory is a very convenient term for brushing off any mention of the covert actions of intelligence agencies, which are in fact well documented. The source, David Shayler, is a very well known British intelligence whistleblower. He has published widely and is not particularly an internet writer so far as I know.

Blair's family background and education is solid Tory - then out of the blue he joins Labour. His whole career in politics has benefited the British establishment at the expense of socialism and the working class. It seems distinctly possible that he was as Shayler alleges an informer and a plant.

C. Flower
22-08-2015, 09:33 AM
http://www.politicalworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=998&stc=1


:) Choice :)

C. Flower
22-08-2015, 09:42 AM
Naked panic and terror in the Torygraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11817162/Jeremy-Corbyn-must-be-stopped.html

As a Nordie I find the yelping about Adams hilarious, albeit totally bizarre. What planet are these right-wing loons living on? Have the events of the last 20 years really just completely passed them by? Are they really utterly unaware that Adams and McGuinness have been regularly meeting with Prime Ministers, Presidents and Royalty from multiple nations for over 20 fncking years now? Including Blair, Cameron, Charlie Windsor and Her Maj herself? Really bonkers stuff.

It's funny to watch though...a few weeks ago the WingNuts were all smug chortling and blowharding about how a Corbyn victory would guarantee Tory government forever. Now that they've seen not just his policies, but his ability to argue his corner, and the extraordinary public and online reaction to his campaign, they are absolutely terrified that he actually might win the Labour leadership, tear their gibberish nonsense to shreds, and launch a drive to roll back the advances of the neo-liberal nutjobs in recent decades.

Their counter-revolution just got countered.

The counter-revolution always relied on a compliant leadership of the Labour movement, first and foremost.

.

DCon
22-08-2015, 10:07 AM
Crisis :)

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/CM9cf3yWUAA-EB_.jpg

DCon
22-08-2015, 10:08 AM
http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/CM83ftyWUAAsrtb.jpg

pluralist
22-08-2015, 11:56 AM
Louise Mensch tried to smear Jeremy Corbyn supporters on Twitter and scored an own-goal instead
Posted 4 hours ago by Bethan McKernan in news








http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/louise-mensch-tried-to-smear-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-on-twitter-andscored-an-owngoal-instead--bJlRYEDP1Hl

pluralist
22-08-2015, 06:10 PM
Such as the portrayal of Blair as a socialist ?


Who told you that the Labour leader had to be a socialist? Labour is a broad church.


Blair's family background and education is solid Tory - then out of the blue he joins Labour. His whole career in politics has benefited the British establishment at the expense of socialism and the working class. It seems distinctly possible that he was as Shayler alleges an informer and a plant.

I think this is a real stretch, particularly the first sentence. His father worked as a tax collector and was born illegitimate of two impoverished actors and was adopted by a shipyward worker and his wife. His maternal grandfather was a butcher.

Binn Beal
22-08-2015, 07:27 PM
Labour is a broad church.
Define church.

pluralist
22-08-2015, 07:57 PM
Define church.

I think in this context, several considerations arise, but the UK Labour party has always welcomed democratic socialists and their ideas whilst not being a party exclusively composed of democratic socialists. One thing it has never welcomed and indeed has resisted is entryism by leftists of the non-democratic type. For example, Neil Kinnock expelled Militant in the 1980s during the long slow march to make Labour electable again. This march eventually led to Labour's longest unbroken spell in power to date. While the far left swirled around in a vortex of its making, Blairism accomplished the minimum wage, the longest spell of unbroken growth in the UK's history, devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the abolition of Section 8, etc.

Sidewinder
23-08-2015, 01:15 AM
Mark Fiddaman on form again

https://markfiddaman.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/6-links-jeremy-corbyn-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about/

Corbyn wins backing from 41 economists including Danny Blanchflower:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/22/jeremy-corbyn-economists-backing-anti-austerity-policies-corbynomics

A searingly accurate piece from Benedict Cooper

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/triumph-corbynism-death-rattle-new-labour

Far from being a dinosaur relic of the past, Corbyn is, and has a long track record of being, ahead of the curve, writes Paul Rogers in the Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/labour-leadership-contest-behind-the-times-no-jeremy-corbyn-may-be-ahead-of-the-game-10467323.html

Meanwhile the WingNut loons are still screeching and yelping about The IRA

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3207504/Jeremy-Corbyn-s-IRA-links-make-national-security-risk-says-Lord-Tebbit.html

LOL what a bunch of clueless muppets :) But it shows that a point in Rogers' piece above is correct: having abandoned attempts to influence the Labour leadership vote, the WingNut press is now concentrating on dog-whistle bile-spitting to rally the hardcore Tory/far-right vote.

Sidewinder
23-08-2015, 06:24 AM
This article is pretty bizarre...well not the article itself which is largely just a rehash of yer bog-standard tired middle-class small-c-conservative what-will-the-neighbours-think snobbery...but check out the comments, it's really off-the-deep-end bonkers stuff....endless lunatic rants and raves about how Corbyn is Hitler, all Socialists want to murder all the Jews, and the occasional incoherent screech about Muslims.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/08/evening-cult-corbyn-islington/

Not for the first (or last) time I have to ask.....what on earth is wrong with these people? :confused:

C. Flower
23-08-2015, 11:17 AM
Who told you that the Labour leader had to be a socialist? Labour is a broad church.

Obviously, nobody told Blair. Blair was involved in 'de-socialising' the Labour Party. Removal of support for nationalisation /support for privatisation in particular. The Labour Party is not a church (in spite of Blair's efforts to orient it to "Faith Communities" and in spite of a Fabian streak in its history. It is a political party.


I think this is a real stretch, particularly the first sentence. His father worked as a tax collector and was born illegitimate of two impoverished actors and was adopted by a shipyward worker and his wife. His maternal grandfather was a butcher.

Similar background to Thatcher and Major, but more solidly Tory - from my previous post on this



Tony Blair, former prime minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was born Anthony Charles Lynton Blair on May 6, 1953, in Edinburgh, Scotland. Despite being born in Scotland, Blair spent the better part of his childhood in Durham, England, where he attended the Chorister School.
Blair's father, Leo Charles Blair, was a prominent attorney who ran for Parliament as a Tory in 1963, when Tony was 10 years old. Devastatingly, Leo had a stroke right before the election, rendering him unable to speak. As Leo convalesced over the next three years, Tony and his siblings, older brother Bill and younger sister Sarah, learned to fend for themselves and adapt to stressful financial difficulties. From an early age, Blair felt compelled to follow in his father's footsteps and one day achieve the political goals his father was forced to abandon

pluralist
23-08-2015, 09:28 PM
This article is pretty bizarre...well not the article itself which is largely just a rehash of yer bog-standard tired middle-class small-c-conservative what-will-the-neighbours-think snobbery...but check out the comments, it's really off-the-deep-end bonkers stuff....endless lunatic rants and raves about how Corbyn is Hitler, all Socialists want to murder all the Jews, and the occasional incoherent screech about Muslims.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/08/evening-cult-corbyn-islington/


Not for the first (or last) time I have to ask.....what on earth is wrong with these people? :confused:

The Speccy's comments section has long been a haven for utter raving loons.

morticia
24-08-2015, 06:50 AM
The Speccy's comments section has long been a haven for utter raving loons.

Indeed. To answer the (rhetorical) question re what's wrong with these people, there is in fact a very simple answer

They're Tories

Case closed [emoji13]

Sidewinder
24-08-2015, 09:22 AM
OK it may be time to retire. We just went through the looking-glass, y'all.

So ye may remember parody twitter account #CorbynWarnings, one of whose tweets was "Warning about Corbyn only makes him stronger, warns MP"

So then today we get this article, and the headline? "Attacking Jeremy Corbyn will only increase his popularity"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3208326/Attacking-Jeremy-Corbyn-help-says-PETER-MCKAY.html

But that was just a bit of light amusement to start the day. Then stuff got really strange...the Torygraph have a ludicrously insane piece about how Corbyn will lead to the extinction of mankind, or something...written by one....*drum roll*

JEREMY WARNER

How can any mere mortal scribe hope to compete against such a deranged cosmos?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11814767/Jeremy-Corbyns-plan-to-turn-Britain-into-Zimbabwe.html

Apjp
24-08-2015, 06:19 PM
Just a random comment from this afternoon's browsing about, reading comments n blogs etc...

What exactly is wrong with WingNuts? It baffles me, it really does. Their brains don't actually seem to function in a normal rational way. There's no such thing in their world as examining the data and drawing or extrapolating some rational conclusions. In fact there's really nothing that could be described as "thinking" at all! On article after article, blog after blog, forum after forum the WingNuts just divebomb threads with the exact same three or four cliches and slogans, then disappear into the night. And it doesn't matter how often some raving idiocy is comprehensively debunked, 10 minutes later another lunatic WingNut will be along divebombing the thread with the exact same gibberish.

Endless repetition of mindless, fact-free and unsupportable-by-reality mantras. It really does seem to be all they are capable of.

How on earth did such a bunch of imbecilic spasmodroids end up dominating politics for the last 40 years? Mad, Ted.

You deserve a reward for such eloquence, though I hate that fing word.

:)

I would compare such wingnuts to Europhile wingnuts if you recall anyebate with such a person in your life...I count many in my head...

Binn Beal
24-08-2015, 08:14 PM
I too enjoy Sidewinder's virulent flow and find it refreshingly honest but wouldn't like him/her for a script-writer if ever I stand for election.

(The reference to people with cerebral palsy is unintentionally offensive, I presume.)

pluralist
25-08-2015, 12:39 AM
Indeed. To answer the (rhetorical) question re what's wrong with these people, there is in fact a very simple answer

They're Tories

Case closed [emoji13]

The comments section or the articles? The comments section trends way further rightwards than most of the columnists. Hugo Rifkind used to get into all kinds of rows with UKIP'rs that posted comments criticising his own articles (I say 'used to' because while he still writes for the Spectator I don't think he bothers engaging in the comments section any more).

Binn Beal
26-08-2015, 06:50 PM
Jeremy Corbyn will be cheered by racists and terrorists
Yesterday's headline from The Telegraph.
And I thought the Irish Innuendo was the last bastion of objective journalism.

morticia
26-08-2015, 08:42 PM
There's a really good reason it's known as the Torygraph....

pluralist
27-08-2015, 02:24 AM
There's a really good reason it's known as the Torygraph....

They were always the "Torygraph" but were a decent "paper of record" under the ownership of the much maligned Conrad Black (and even the early years of the Barclay Brothers ownership) but in the rush to turn a profit in these days of declining circulation for print, standards have slipped.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne/why-i-have-resigned-from-telegraph

DCon
30-08-2015, 08:47 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNrMH0xWEAAHd0x.jpg

C. Flower
11-09-2015, 09:48 PM
"Why I voted for Corbyn"

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/i-voted-jeremy-corbyn-today-and-heres-why

Binn Beal
12-09-2015, 08:45 AM
The results are live on BBC 2 at 11am.
Me nerves!

Jolly Red Giant
12-09-2015, 09:08 AM
The results are live on BBC 2 at 11am.
Me nerves!
To be honest - the result is not particularly important. A win for Corbyn would be an enormous boost for the left - but the key issue is what will Corbyn do tomorrow?

Win or Lose Corbyn should use the momentum built up by his campaign to launch a wide anti-austerity movement. Trying to constrict the anti-austerity movement within the confines of New Labour will limit its potential significantly.

If Corbyn wins and he tries to accommodate the neo-liberal MPs (all 220 of them) he will become a hostage to fortune. Corbyn has to wipe the slate clean - move immediately to deselect the right-wing MPs and councillors, re-democratise the party etc and all in the teeth of conflict with the right-wing PLP.

If Corbyn loses the right-wing will immediately move to remove all those who have joined to vote for Corbyn (not that people will hang around under a right-wing leader anyway.

Corbyn has to try and mobilise the opposition to austerity to build a new left movement based on the working class and he has to do it by opposing the Tories and the New Labour PLP. If he doesn't then this opportunity will be lost and the momentum will dissipate.

Sidewinder
12-09-2015, 10:47 AM
And Jez wins with a whopping 59.5% of the vote on the first round

There 540,272 eligible voters.

Some 422,664 people cast votes

There were 207 spoilt votes.

Jeremy Corbyn: 251,417 - 59.5%

Andy Burnham: 80,462 - 19%

Yvette Cooper: 71,928 - 17%

Liz Kendall: 18,857 - 4.5%

C. Flower
12-09-2015, 11:47 AM
To be honest - the result is not particularly important. A win for Corbyn would be an enormous boost for the left - but the key issue is what will Corbyn do tomorrow?

Win or Lose Corbyn should use the momentum built up by his campaign to launch a wide anti-austerity movement. Trying to constrict the anti-austerity movement within the confines of New Labour will limit its potential significantly.

If Corbyn wins and he tries to accommodate the neo-liberal MPs (all 220 of them) he will become a hostage to fortune. Corbyn has to wipe the slate clean - move immediately to deselect the right-wing MPs and councillors, re-democratise the party etc and all in the teeth of conflict with the right-wing PLP.

If Corbyn loses the right-wing will immediately move to remove all those who have joined to vote for Corbyn (not that people will hang around under a right-wing leader anyway.

Corbyn has to try and mobilise the opposition to austerity to build a new left movement based on the working class and he has to do it by opposing the Tories and the New Labour PLP. If he doesn't then this opportunity will be lost and the momentum will dissipate.


He's won. Just take a moment.... :)

Sidewinder
12-09-2015, 11:57 AM
It's hilarious watching all the lunatic right-wing trolls on various media sites going into absolute meltdown. They are totally bricking it, while at the same time loudly insisting the Corbyn victory is the best possible result for them. I was planning on a quiet Sat night in but now it looks to be more entertaining than I was expecting :)

Jolly Red Giant
12-09-2015, 11:58 AM
He's won. Just take a moment.... :)

yes he has - and congrats to him - now - whats next

I have to say that I found his fawning over the defeated Blairite candidates a bit nauseating

Binn Beal
12-09-2015, 12:19 PM
It's nearly two hours since he was elected. What's keeping the denunciations from lefter-than-thou spectators?

Shaadi
12-09-2015, 12:52 PM
And now we play the waiting game!

Should definitely spice things up hugely over there, and make some people here believe that change is possible.

C. Flower
12-09-2015, 12:59 PM
It's nearly two hours since he was elected. What's keeping the denunciations from lefter-than-thou spectators?

Check the previous page: why wait for the election ? . Any,way, people don't have to believe that Corbyn will whisk us straight to Utopia to be very pleased with thiis vote

morticia
12-09-2015, 01:33 PM
Check the previous page: why wait for the election ? . Any,way, people don't have to believe that Corbyn will whisk us straight to Utopia to be very pleased with thiis vote

Smirk smirk smirk!

random new yorker
12-09-2015, 03:40 PM
Congratulations to Labour in the UK and to you guys here for keeping up the good fight.

--

For those puzzled about my stance on this I leave a note I wrote today to a good friend [who is very conservative]:

"You need an Alternative to what you have in power to have a properly functioning democracy. Otherwise you have more of the same. With the current international pressure that is coming up w TTIP you NEED someone in Europe looking at the fine print in the partnership so you dont get into the situation many south american countries find themselves in (being sued by mega Corporations). That i dont think is ultimately in the interest of the people."

Dr. FIVE
12-09-2015, 06:51 PM
Jeremy Corbyn can look forward to working the remaining two or three Labour Party TDs


Leader of the Labour Party, Minister for Social Protection

I want to congratulate Jeremy Corbyn and Tom Watson on their election as Leader and Deputy Leader of The Labour Party in Britain.

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign energised large sections of the Party's membership and brought new people to the Labour Party. The challenge now is to transfer that energy into upcoming election campaigns.

The relationship between the British and Irish Labour Parties is extremely strong and I look forward to meeting Mr Corbyn and working with him on strengthening those ties.

Apjp
12-09-2015, 08:03 PM
Jezza is a political ally of Gerry Adams and SF.

Joan was probably being masochistic in her telegram.

morticia
12-09-2015, 08:42 PM
Gerry has issued a very positive statement re the Triumph of Jez. I'd imagine most Irish parties except FG and possibly Renua will be bouncing up and down trying to make contact with him. After all, I don't really think his policies are all that extreme by Irish standards. We already have no monarchy, no nukes and a national monopoly rail system. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

DCon
12-09-2015, 09:04 PM
Might be time for the Blairites to go it alone

Conservative Labour could be a good name


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COuzmUsWgAAVe3c.jpg

DCon
12-09-2015, 09:06 PM
Brit Sunday's are unanimous in their subject of headline

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COu0bFOWIAQgDu3.jpg

random new yorker
13-09-2015, 01:21 AM
BROTHERS IN HATE
by Maajid Nawaz

09.12.159:30 AM ET

The Daily Hate: Corbyn, Trump and the New Politics of Spite

Jeremy Corbyn is the new leader of the Labour Party. Politicians like him on the left and right don’t try to win arguments—they try to destroy their opponents.

We are living in a spiteful, populist time.

Peddling hate makes for popular politicians and being angry is the new “being cool.” Across the western hemisphere a new type of leader is emerging whose rise to power has been as unpredictable as it has been swift. And the one thing these new leaders and their supporters have in common is not their politics, but their utter disdain for their political opponents and the entire “establishment.” And yes, I could be talking about Donald Trump in America, or the far-left rise of Jeremy Corbyn in the UK. But I could just as easily be referring to the longer-term rise of Western Islamism, or far-right anti-Muslim street movements such as Germany’s Pegida and others across Europe. And whether we consider expanding campus coalitions to Boycott, Divest and Sanction (BDS) Israel, or the intransigence of extremist Israeli settlers, what many of these movements’ followers share is the desire not just to disagree with their opponents, but to delegitimize, dehumanize and ostracize those with whom they disagree.

Full text. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/12/what-corbyn-trump-and-radical-islamists-have-in-common.html?via=mobile&source=twitter)

Shaadi
13-09-2015, 10:53 AM
BROTHERS IN HATE
by Maajid Nawaz

09.12.159:30 AM ET

The Daily Hate: Corbyn, Trump and the New Politics of Spite

Jeremy Corbyn is the new leader of the Labour Party. Politicians like him on the left and right don’t try to win arguments—they try to destroy their opponents.

We are living in a spiteful, populist time.

Peddling hate makes for popular politicians and being angry is the new “being cool.” Across the western hemisphere a new type of leader is emerging whose rise to power has been as unpredictable as it has been swift. And the one thing these new leaders and their supporters have in common is not their politics, but their utter disdain for their political opponents and the entire “establishment.” And yes, I could be talking about Donald Trump in America, or the far-left rise of Jeremy Corbyn in the UK. But I could just as easily be referring to the longer-term rise of Western Islamism, or far-right anti-Muslim street movements such as Germany’s Pegida and others across Europe. And whether we consider expanding campus coalitions to Boycott, Divest and Sanction (BDS) Israel, or the intransigence of extremist Israeli settlers, what many of these movements’ followers share is the desire not just to disagree with their opponents, but to delegitimize, dehumanize and ostracize those with whom they disagree.

Full text. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/12/what-corbyn-trump-and-radical-islamists-have-in-common.html?via=mobile&source=twitter)*snigger*

The astounding levels of hypocrisy in that article are hilarious.

The status quo parties and politicians have created the cluster fk and uber selfish mess of a world we are now living in and trying to adapt to.

Their answer to people that seek change is to tell them to trust the status quo that has created the current mess.

Austerity only for the little guy so that economies become competitive, a free pass and central bank funding for the financiers who're bestest buddies with the status quoists.

Tut tutting for the BDS and Settlers, no responsibility for the neo-liberal consensus that imposed no sanctions on the Settlers beyond poorly feigned exasperation. Ludicrous in the face of their fondness for sanctioning those that don't do what the neo-liberals demand off them.

Yards of outrage at militant Islam, zero sanctions on the "friendly" dictatorships that sponsor militant Islamism. $60 bn arms sales to them, wink wink.

Cheerleading and spending billions to create instability in countries, then claiming the high moral ground.

Go away disgusting neo-liberal technocratic greedsters, you have ZERO credibility. It's not spite you deserve it's Jail and stripping of what you've stolen that you deserve.

Sidewinder
13-09-2015, 03:57 PM
wibble wibble

Mindlessly incoherent drivel. Sorry but there is no point in trying to argue against this level of mindless nonsense.

Saoirse go Deo
13-09-2015, 08:21 PM
Home

by Nick Wright

These few words are addressed, in part, to our readers outside of the disunited Queendom of Great Britain and colonial statelet of Northern Ireland.

A few weeks ago the issue was: can Jeremy Corbyn win the leadership of Britain’s Labour Party?

That question is now settled. He won 59.5% of the votes on an electorate much larger and more representative of the British people than when Tony Blair – then a relatively untarnished brand — won the leadership with a smaller percentage.

The question now is can the Labour Party, under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, win a general election in Britain’s notoriously undemocratic first-past-the-post electoral system which, traditionally, turns on a few thousand vacillating swing voters in a few dozen class-divided and marginal constituencies.

The electoral system is just the first the obstacles.

We live in a capitalist society where capitalist ideas — individualism, egoism, self promotion, money grubbing among them — are the ruling ideas. Where property ownership is prized over principles, where wealth is the passport to advancement in almost every sphere of human endeavour.

Set against this is the volatile nature of public opinion and the underlying current of decency which is the hallmark of much of British society despite, or perhaps because of, the toxic climate engendered by the media and the political establishment.

A sign of this is the presence of Corbyn on the hundred thousand strong demonstration support of refugees just minutes after his election and the wild reception that greeted his speech.

That the dominant media, in its many ways, reflects and reinforces capitalist values can be a surprise only to an outside observer innocent of the billionaire ownership structure of the media and the domination of its upper reaches by a bourgeois strata knitted together by privileged education, wealth and reward, personal connections and shared values.

That these people, universally, failed to anticipate the tsunami of popular support that propelled Corbyn to victory and equally fail to understand the daily realities of life for working people in the Austerity Kingdom is now the cause for much troubled thinking in these circles and most especially among their co-thinkers in the parliamentary Labour Party and the liberal media.

Corbyn won with full media support only from the Morning Star newspaper (formerly the Daily Worker organ of the central committee of the Communist Party) now owned by a cooperative with a management committee made up of Communist, Green and Labour supporters including representatives of many trade unions who hold shares in the coop; and for which Corbyn has written a weekly column for almost as many years as he has been an MP. And latterly with the endorsement of the Scottish Daily Record which is the Scottish variant of the usually Labour supporting Daily Mirror tabloid.

We can account for the numerical size of his victory because of the ways in which the Labour Party electorate has been reinforced by hundreds of thousands of new people. Some of these joined, or rejoined, in the immediate aftermath of the election defeat and Ed Miliband’s resignation and before the campaign to elect a new leader began.

Despite a mendacious media campaign, spun largely by his opponents and promoted mostly by the curiously unhinged liberal daily The Guardian the vast bulk of these people were solid Labour supporters, many who had left at various points when the neoliberal economics and imperialist war mongering of the Blair Brown leadership overcame loyalty. Others were returning Greens and assorted left wingers. (A handful were Tory provocateurs most of whom were weeded out in a lopsided purge that deprived an even larger number of genuine Labour supporters of a vote but still failed to dent Corbyn’s majority.)

Rejoiners are a special category. I know of many people, trade unionists especially, who regret resigning from the Labour Party in recent years if only because if had they waited a few months longer yet another betrayal of Labour principles even greater than the one that caused their exit would have provided a yet more compelling reason.

The electorate was augmented by a large number of people, not all of them young or new voters, who took advantage of the new US-style primary election system originally devised by Labour’s right wing and imagined by them as favouring a consensus view conditioned precisely by the media and the factors outlined above.

For a simple payment — electronic or otherwise — of ú3 Labour supporters could register as such and vote. Mobilised by an energetic social media campaign organised by Corbyn’s talented and enthusiastic staff and driven by many thousands of volunteers staffing phone banks in trade union offices these newly enthused adherents to Corbyn’s candidacy swamped the feeble and lack lustre efforts of Corbyn’s right wing opponents.

In addition to these two cohorts individual members of trade union affiliated to the Labour Party could register with their trade union and thus receive a vote.

The trade union leadership originally opposed the new system which replaced one where three Curia — of MPs and Members of the European Parliament; of individual members; and of trade union affiliated members, each had one-third of the votes.

They accepted the new system and set about mobilising their members to vote. The overwhelming majority cast their votes for Corbyn who thus won with majorities in every section of the electorate and on the first ballot, without triggering the second preference votes of the defeated candidates who attracted 19% in the case of Burnham. 17% for Cooper and 4.5% for the most Blairite Kendall.

Corbyn’s campaign was marked by a mounting series of 99 rallies which attracted thousands of people of a scale unprecedented in recent political history and which gave a powerful sense of renewal, of anger against austerity, against racism and war, against the troika of bankers, bosses and bureaucrats.

An important factor was Corbyn’s modest demeanour and life style — he claims minimal expenses as an MP – in stark contrast to many of his parliamentary colleagues — travels by bike and public transport, is vegetarian and doesn’t take alcohol. Again in contrast to many MPs he combines a principled and consistent political outlook tested over decades of opposition to anti working class and reactionary measures with an exceptionally courteous manner. During the campaign he refused to respond in kind to personal attacks and continually emphasised the policy questions.

And it was as much on his policies as his distinctive character that he won so convincingly.

It is this breach in the carapace of consensus politics that so frightens and angers the political representatives of the bourgeoisie, their attendant auxiliaries in the media and the Labour Party.

Taken on his own Corbyn is far from being a typical vacillating social democrat on the European model. His actual record as a firm anti imperialist and anti racist and as chair of the Stop the War Coalition gives him a moral stature that those of his parliamentary colleagues who voted for New Labour’s succession of wars can never aspire to.

He was from the start a partisan of the anti apartheid cause, fiercely opposed to privatisation, a critic of the Private Finance Initiative devised by EU enthusiasts to meet the Maastricht Treaty public expenditure cap and a familiar figure on every picket line and protest. A fluent Spanish speaker his record of opposition to US and British imperial adventures in every continent gives him instant recognition in a myriad of foreign communities in London. He led the campaign to arrest Pinochet when that infamous friend of Thatcher was undergoing treatment in an expensive private London hospital.

In his polyglot, diverse and multi-class North London constituency he has raised his election majority from under 9,000 to over 20,000. This is set against a catastrophic six million decline in the national Labour vote under Blair and Brown over the same period.

Frederick Engels famously said that when the British working class arose from its slumbers no force on earth could stand in its way. This state of affairs has not yet come to pass but the more far sighted tribunes of the ruling class sense the danger. They worry that a Labour party attuned to the many discontents of Britain’s working people will drag the whole political discourse to the left. They fear above all else the reentry of the working class into the centre of political life.
https://21centurymanifesto.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/first-thoughts-on-the-election-of-jeremy-corbyn-as-leader-of-the-labour-party/#comments

pluralist
13-09-2015, 08:22 PM
I'm not a Corbyn fan but this stuff from the Tories is pathetic:


Conservatives ‏@Conservatives Sep 12

Labour are now a serious risk to our national security. Please RT to let everyone know.
Embedded image permalink


https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/642765041708740608

DCon
13-09-2015, 08:24 PM
:)



One Labour activist tells #tw2 - "we had a right-wing coup in the Labour Party. Taken over in my view by Tories. Tony Blair was a Tory."



https://mobile.twitter.com/suttonnick/status/643035103787134976

Dr. FIVE
13-09-2015, 09:03 PM
643155455649443844

morticia
13-09-2015, 09:26 PM
643155455649443844

He's not short on initiative, is he? [emoji6][emoji2]

DCon
13-09-2015, 09:29 PM
Corbyn introduces 'minister for equalities and faith minorities'. Hostile papers report as 'ministers for Jews'. This is day 1.

Dr. FIVE
14-09-2015, 12:24 AM
Just thinking how unrepresentative the commentariat must be of the Labour membership and how ineffectual they were at marshalling events towards the desired outcome. Corbyn victory similar to Irish Water and rise of Syriza whereby by blanket media hostility itself became part of what people rejected. The anti-Corbyn campaign there was the ******* pits and people easily enough smelt a rat when Graun, New Statesman, Cameron and the Murdoch press were so closely singing from the same hymm sheet.

Media still unrivalled in policing boundary of acceptable choice, day to day, but chinks in the armour are at least becoming more frequent.

C. Flower
16-09-2015, 04:03 PM
643155455649443844

There is some good comment here on Corbyn's foreign policy principles, including remarks by Julien Assange.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaV7TaAZx1c

Corbyn has consistently opposed bombing and invading Middle Eastern countries.

This, and his alignment with Trade Unions, makes him a very different kettle of fish to Tsipras.

Assange suggests that either he will have to compromise and work with the Yanks, if elected, or will be taken out one way or another.

I'm not so sure. Harold Wilson was heaved out by "Dark Forces". Not so easy in the era of the internet.

toxic avenger
19-09-2015, 11:45 PM
Any residents of Britain or the North here, of any political stripe, but who oppose the gutter press's vicious personal campaign against Corbyn based on his past love life etc. - here's a petition I started to get Parliament to condemn such gutter tactics, as well as to look again at the wisdom of self-regulation by the press. Please sign. And then share!

And note - this is not to say that Corbyn's policy, leadership style, etc. shouldn't be criticized - it's just a petition against the dirty tricks.

Petition here... https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/108968/sponsors/I60VFFcfK4m2HEUmegrs

PaddyJoe
20-09-2015, 12:15 AM
Any residents of Britain or the North here, of any political stripe, but who oppose the gutter press's vicious personal campaign against Corbyn based on his past love life etc. - here's a petition I started to get Parliament to condemn such gutter tactics, as well as to look again at the wisdom of self-regulation by the press. Please sign. And then share!

And note - this is not to say that Corbyn's policy, leadership style, etc. shouldn't be criticized - it's just a petition against the dirty tricks.

Petition here... https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/108968/sponsors/I60VFFcfK4m2HEUmegrs

Not just what we normally think of as the gutter press either. The volume and the intensity of the onslaught is not completely unprecedented but I don't remember anything quite as savage since the eighties and the miners's strike.