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pluralist
06-03-2015, 03:39 PM
Is Bradford’s ‘Israel-free Zone’ the New Face of Banlieue Britain?

In the second of a five-part series, how a rotting post-industrial city became Britain’s anti-Zionist capital
By Ben Judah|March 6, 2015 12:00 AM|Comments

http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/189347/a-polite-hatred-2-bradford-galloway

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 04:26 PM
http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/189347/a-polite-hatred-2-bradford-galloway

The article assumes that anti zionism is anti semitism.

Interesting interview.

Given the appalling scenes in Gaza, it is not surprising there is some anger. Netanyahu is now using the blow back as a recruitment tool to get people to migrate to Israel.

Ireland lost is Jewish communities a good while back.

Is it migration to Israel, or increasing integration, that is the cause of some of these old Jewish communities disappearing ?


There was no service, because there was only one man there, Rudi Leavor, a retired dentist. Rudi is an elegant, stiff, and blue-eyed man with a slight German accent and wisps of white hair on the sides of his head. He was not born in Bradford but in Berlin, where he remembers watching the Nazis marching.


Rudi paints a nuanced but troubling picture of life as one of the last Jews of Bradford. He says it is not paranoid for Jews to be worried about being attacked, but that his life here has been defined more by Muslim friendship than by hate. Rudi has found his Muslim friends have been some of his strongest allies in keeping the synagogue alive. They helped him raise £5,000 ($7,680) for an emergency appeal when the synagogue roof was leaking and faced immediate closure. And he has invited a Muslim friend from the council who organizes school children’s visits to religious sites in Bradford to become a member of the synagogue committee. “They came to the financial rescue when we were in a real crisis. They have been our true friends.”
Rudi says he does not experience anti-Semitism in his daily life in Bradford. “It’s so slight it is hardly worth mentioning. But we now have a police presence that comes once a month when we have services.” The summer of the 2014 war in Gaza saw a number of unpleasant, if extremely minor, incidents. One group of visiting Jews coming to the synagogue wearing kippot were briefly trailed in a car with young Muslim men shouting—“You’re not welcome here.”


But there is one incident that lingers with Rudi. Invisible, he passes through his daily life without any harassment. But on one of the last occasions the Jews gathered visibly in the street outside the synagogue for a funeral something went terribly wrong. The hearse carrying the remains of the son of one the founding rabbis of the synagogue was trying to reach the synagogue, but both ends of the street were mysteriously blocked with traffic. Rudi says then Asian youths burst out and began shaking the hearse. Others saw them fly a Palestinian flag.
“It makes me sad to think we are the last ones,” Rudi said. “Very sad.

pluralist
06-03-2015, 04:33 PM
The article assumes that anti zionism is anti semitism.

It would be interesting to know if Jews in Bradford are experiencing anti-semitism, but the article doesn't go into that.

It's true that problems of anti-semitism in the UK are not as severe as in France, most British Jews feel safe (as the author of the piece says) and the issue should not be blown out of proportion.

But given that the vast majority of Jews internationally support the existence of the state of Israel, if not necessarily all of its policies, it is naive to assume there is always clear-cut distinction between anti zionism and anti semitism. Anti-zionists of Dieduonne's ilk are also anti-semites. The likes of Galloway is a bit cleverer, he's a race baiter but is usually smart enough to cover his tracks.

As comedian David Baddiel put it on twitter recently, in some quarters Zionist is just another name for an uppity Jew.

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 04:40 PM
Given that the vast majority of Jews internationally support the existence of the state of Israel, if not necessarily all of its policies, it is naive to assume there is always clear-cut distinction. Anti-zionists of Dieduonne's ilk are also anti-semites. The likes of Galloway is a bit cleverer, he's a race baiter but is usually smart enough to cover his tracks.

As comedian David Baddiel put it on twitter recently, in some quarters Zionist is just another name for an uppity Jew.

Apologies, I edited my post since you read it. You may want to reply.

Tbh, I know England, and the British anti-Zionists are not likely to be anti-Semitic, as they are mainly anti-racist lefts.

You will find embedded anti-semitism in the British Upper Classes, who use abusive terms for Jews.

It is just that they do it in a 'nice' way, in privacy.

The other anti Semites are the neo nazi types, BNP, etc.

I don't see too many Palestinian flags here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm0xD1VVMys

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 04:42 PM
But given that the vast majority of Jews internationally support the existence of the state of Israel, if not necessarily all of its policies, it is naive to assume there is always clear-cut distinction between anti zionism and anti semitism. Anti-zionists of Dieduonne's ilk are also anti-semites. The likes of Galloway is a bit cleverer, he's a race baiter but is usually smart enough to cover his tracks.


Disagreeing with the support of some Jewish people for Zionism is not anti-semitism. It is political disagreement.

pluralist
06-03-2015, 05:02 PM
Apologies, I edited my post since you read it. You may want to reply.

Tbh, I know England, and the British anti-Zionists are not likely to be anti-Semitic, as they are mainly anti-racist lefts.

You will find embedded anti-semitism in the British Upper Classes, who use abusive terms for Jews.

There were aristocrats who were Nazi sympathisers and the Conservative Party historically had a strand of anti-semitism, less in evidence now. Some say criticisms of Ed Milliband in the Tory press contain coded anti-semitism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/is-the-criticism-of-ed-miliband-a-coded-form-of-antisemitism-9885745.html

I live near the embassy belt in Dublin, and there were regular protests, much one would expect, outside the Israeli embassy during last year's conflict.

I have never, on any occasion, seen any left-wing group (or any Irish person, for that matter) demonstrate in solidarity with Falun Gong members that regularly protest outside the Chinese embassy. So I cannot help but think Israel is singled out for disproportione criticism or protests.

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 05:12 PM
There were aristocrats who were Nazi sympathisers and the Conservative Party historically had a strand of anti-semitism, less in evidence now. Some say criticisms of Ed Milliband in the Tory press contain coded anti-semitism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/is-the-criticism-of-ed-miliband-a-coded-form-of-antisemitism-9885745.html

I live near the embassy belt in Dublin, and there were regular protests, much one would expect, outside the Israeli embassy during last year's conflict.

I have never, on any occasion, seen any left-wing group (or any Irish person, for that matter) demonstrate in solidarity with Falun Gong members that regularly protest outside the Chinese embassy. So I cannot help but think Israel is singled out for disproportione criticism or protests.

Seriously: there are not too many images about of Falun Gong members and their children lying dead in the ruins of their homes.

pluralist
06-03-2015, 05:24 PM
Seriously: there are not too many images about of Falun Gong members and their children lying dead in the ruins of their homes.

And I have to wonder why that is, as seemingly that over 3,000 Falun Gong members have died due to torture in custody.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong#Statewide_suppression

Some causes it seems are not fashionable for the SWP et al.

As regards the recent Israeli/Gaza conflict, there were fake photos going around social media, they were actually from the Syrian conflict. But it is interesting that those who re-tweeted the photos onto my timeline didn't 'sense-check' them. Is it because some would believe the Jews capable of any evil.

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 05:35 PM
[QUOTE=pluralist;421056]And I have to wonder why that is, as seemingly that over 3,000 Falun Gong members have died due to torture in custody.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong#Statewide_suppression

Some causes it seems are not fashionable for the SWP et al.

The article shows a number of western protests in support of Falu Gong practitioners.


As regards the recent Israeli/Gaza conflict, there were fake photos going around social media, they were actually from the Syrian conflict. But it is interesting that those who re-tweeted the photos onto my timeline didn't 'sense-check' them.

There were also fake photos of Gaza being passed off as the Syria conflict. But as I watched Cast lead more or less on live stream, and so did many others, there is not point in pretending that many children were not killed in bombing - some with phosphorus weapons.


Is it because some would believe the Jews capable of any evil.



I cant see why anyone would have fake tweeted deaths in Gaza, (there have been so many real ones) unless hasbara trying to muddy the water.

Shaadi
06-03-2015, 06:10 PM
It's true that problems of anti-semitism in the UK are not as severe as in France, most British Jews feel safe (as the author of the piece says) and the issue should not be blown out of proportion.

But given that the vast majority of Jews internationally support the existence of the state of Israel, if not necessarily all of its policies, it is naive to assume there is always clear-cut distinction between anti zionism and anti semitism. Anti-zionists of Dieduonne's ilk are also anti-semites. The likes of Galloway is a bit cleverer, he's a race baiter but is usually smart enough to cover his tracks.

As comedian David Baddiel put it on twitter recently, in some quarters Zionist is just another name for an uppity Jew.Maybe you could stop with all the passive aggressive diversions of what is going on in Palestine and wonder to yourself why anyone other than fruitcases would give Jewishness a second thought if Israel didn't use the false label of anti-semitism as a defense mechanism against the mass opposition to its ongoing Colonial project.

Like, just spit it out, are you saying that opposing the ongoing Colonial project that is Israeli Expansionism into the West Bank is wrong?

pluralist
06-03-2015, 06:15 PM
I cant see why anyone would have fake tweeted deaths in Gaza, (there have been so many real ones) unless hasbara trying to muddy the water.

Hasbara? Please.

Photos of victims of chemical weapons attack in Syria were represented as victims of an Israeli attack. By the type of people who think Israel is worse than the Nazis and deep down probably harbour feelings that the Jews kind of, sort of, on some level deserved the Holocaust. Hasbara has jacks**t to do with it tbh.

That's without disputing that Netanyahu is all kinds of tosser and Israel very probably has committed war crimes.

pluralist
06-03-2015, 06:27 PM
Maybe you could stop with all the passive aggressive diversions of what is going on in Palestine and wonder to yourself why anyone other than fruitcases would give Jewishness a second thought if Israel didn't use the false label of anti-semitism as a defense mechanism against the mass opposition to its ongoing Colonial project.

The fact that Netanyahu is an opportunist who exploits the issue of anti-semitism doesn't mean that anti-semitism doesn't exist, e.g. witness the attacks in Paris and Israel recently.


Like, just spit it out, are you saying that opposing the ongoing Colonial project that is Israeli Expansionism into the West Bank is wrong?

I wouldn't use the word 'wrong' as such. I think it is mostly ill-informed as it fails to put the issue into context whereby the Jews have been made to feel unsafe in most countries surrounding Israel. Maybe you should ask yourself why the Arab world, and much of the European left, has such a big problem with the idea of just one small Jewish country in the world.

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 06:30 PM
The fact that Netanyahu is an opportunist who exploits the issue of anti-semitism doesn't mean that anti-semitism doesn't exist, e.g. witness the attacks in Paris and Israel recently.

I wouldn't use the word 'wrong' as such. I think it is mostly ill-informed as it fails to put the issue into context whereby the Jews have been made to feel unsafe in most countries surrounding Israel. Maybe you should ask yourself why the Arab world, and much of the European left, has such a big problem with the idea of just one small Jewish country in the world.

I guess they feel less unsafe in them when they are not invading them or taking their land.

pluralist
06-03-2015, 06:38 PM
I guess they feel less unsafe in them when they are not invading them or taking their land.

I must have missed the bit when Israel invaded Malaysia, Yemen and the UAE.

http://global100.adl.org/#map/meast.

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 06:46 PM
Hasbara? Please.

Photos of victims of chemical weapons attack in Syria were represented as victims of an Israeli attack. By the type of people who think Israel is worse than the Nazis and deep down probably harbour feelings that the Jews kind of, sort of, on some level deserved the Holocaust. Hasbara has jacks**t to do with it tbh.

That's without disputing that Netanyahu is all kinds of tosser and Israel very probably has committed war crimes.

Would you link this here for us to take a view of it ?

I have to remind you that the internet and particularly twitter, is full of fakery: it is partly laziness, partly deliberate messing by paid trolls. The BBC is prone to post images of protests in India and say it is Benghazi, and vice versa. None of this would lead me to draw the false conclusion that you some how expect i.e. Jewishness and Zionism are no different.

I still don't see why anyone would waste their time faking an image of Gaza - there are so many bloody awful and tragic ones that are real.

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 06:48 PM
I must have missed the bit when Israel invaded Malaysia, Yemen and the UAE.

http://global100.adl.org/#map/meast.

Nobody feels safe in the Yemen, since it has been expertly destabilised.

Shaadi
06-03-2015, 07:18 PM
The fact that Netanyahu is an opportunist who exploits the issue of anti-semitism doesn't mean that anti-semitism doesn't exist, e.g. witness the attacks in Paris and Israel recently.



I wouldn't use the word 'wrong' as such. I think it is mostly ill-informed as it fails to put the issue into context whereby the Jews have been made to feel unsafe in most countries surrounding Israel. Maybe you should ask yourself why the Arab world, and much of the European left, has such a big problem with the idea of just one small Jewish country in the world.Of course anti-semitism exists, there will always be racists, people with historic beefs between their cults/nationalities. The current Islamic linked anti-semitism having been fueled by the treatment of their Palestinian co religionists in the process of forming and expanding Greater Israel.

So, apparently you are comfortable with wiping Palestine off the map so that Israel can have Lebensraum, maybe all of ancient Israel, in which case they'll probably have to go chomping more of the land in that area. I see no reason why you would distance yourself from Nethanyahu as you appear to support his end goals.

If the goal of having a safe haven homeland for the Jews has been fulfilled by the creation of Israel, then why do you support its expansion? An expansion which will lead to an end game where after the injustices perpetrated on the Palestinians in the creation of Eretz Israel, radical Islamists may well nuke or dirty bomb Israel out of existence, thereby creating the exact opposite of a safe haven.

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 07:45 PM
Meanwhile the real anti-semites are on the march.

http://www.channel4.com/media/images/Channel4/c4-news/2014/January/24/24_Svobod4_r_w.jpg

pluralist
06-03-2015, 08:04 PM
Where is that from? Who are those people?

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 08:31 PM
Where is that from? Who are those people?

Ukraine, this year. Right Sector, Svoboda, Banderaites etc.

C. Flower
06-03-2015, 08:37 PM
Interestingly, the Tablet doesn't think that mass murdering Jews necessarily means a person is anti-semitic.

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/165455/why-are-jews-so-afraid-of-stepan-bandera

pluralist
07-05-2015, 03:47 AM
Updated 6/5/15, 10:11 PM CET
A Jew in Bradford

How Britain’s Muslim North became George Galloway country.

By Ben Judah


Updated 6/5/15, 10:11 PM CET

http://www.politico.eu/article/galloway-bradford-elections-uk-ge2015/

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 03:59 AM
The article assumes that anti zionism is anti semitism.

Interesting interview.


I have tried to explain this here in the past, to no avail.

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 04:07 AM
Of course anti-semitism exists, there will always be racists, people with historic beefs between their cults/nationalities. The current Islamic linked anti-semitism having been fueled by the treatment of their Palestinian co religionists in the process of forming and expanding Greater Israel.

this is a fallacy, the idea that other Arab tribes care about Palestinians.

I was reading today ISIS is bitterly fighting Hamas to get the spoils of Gaza.



If the goal of having a safe haven homeland for the Jews has been fulfilled by the creation of Israel, then why do you support its expansion? An expansion which will lead to an end game where after the injustices perpetrated on the Palestinians in the creation of Eretz Israel, radical Islamists may well nuke or dirty bomb Israel out of existence, thereby creating the exact opposite of a safe haven.

if radical islamists actually do nuke or dirty bomb Israel out of existence you are talking about the next 6 million jews wiped out of existence in less than 100 years.

the whole idea makes me sick ....

a lot less likely to happen now that Obama seems to have nailed a deal with the iranians.

besides your british jews feel the same way my sister feels which is 'looking for another place to live is always an option' ..

(so I guess if i re-read my second sentence all that you clamor for may indeed happen)

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 04:27 AM
try reading Part 5 of the 5 Part Series. ( i kept track of all 5 in my blog )

---
We are all Zionists now (http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/189958/we-are-all-zionists-now?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=post&utm_content=We%20Are%20All%20Zionists%20Now&utm_campaign=april2015)

How EasyJet and anti-Zionism are turning British Jews into Israelis: part 5 of Tablet’s series on the U.K.
By Ben Judah and Josh Glancy|April 30, 2015 12:00 AM|

Gaza took a back seat: The real battle now was the Zionists vs the bleeding-heart liberals, fighting it out in the British media over a point of principle. ...
(...)

“There is a growing transnationalism to Jewish communities, connecting them to Israel,” said Israeli demographer Sergio Della Pergola. “There is much more communication, crossover, and complexity. Twitter, Facebook, Haaretz English is creating a more intense experience of Israel for these communities. I believe that old ideas of very clear distinctions no longer hold. But this is not unique to the Jews, not in the slightest—this is globalization, and this is only how it is affecting the Jews.”

As Della Pergola suggests, much of the British Jewish community is increasingly transnational between London and Israel. Britain’s Orthodox rabbis are now mainly trained there. Roughly 5 percent of the Jews living in Britain are Israeli citizens. Almost 70 percent of British Jews now have family or a close friend living in Israel. What these statistics mean in concrete terms is this: When Israel is at war, coming under sustained bombardment by Hamas rockets, the majority of British Jews are worrying someone close to them in Israel is at risk.

The new anti-Zionism, which is becoming ever more pronounced, feels the same way that anti-Semitism does: a singling out, discrimination, them turning against us. One reason for this equivalence of feeling is that there is a very real element of anti-Semitism wrapped up in fervid anti-Zionist sentiment. But another is that in the past 50 years many British Jews have become, in part, culturally Israeli. Zionism is at the heart of their Jewish identity. Israel’s travails drive much of their political engagement. Israeli culture is a part of their daily lives.

(...)

“The trouble for British Jews is the British don’t understand Jewish ethnicity,” said Ben Gidley. “Is it a race? Is it a religion? Are they the same ethnicity as the Israelis? Or is it racist to associate them with Israelis? The British don’t understand.”

It may well be the case that many British Jews don’t fully appreciate the complexity of their new identity either. Or what the implications of this will be if Israel does indeed become a pariah state to Europeans, as many of its detractors hope it will.

pluralist
07-05-2015, 04:31 AM
try reading Part 5 of the 5 Part Series. ( i kept track of all 5 .. )

http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/189958/we-are-all-zionists-now?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=post&utm_content=We%20Are%20All%20Zionists%20Now&utm_campaign=april2015
How EasyJet and anti-Zionism are turning British Jews into Israelis: part 5 of Tablet’s series on the U.K.
By Ben Judah and Josh Glancy|April 30, 2015 12:00 AM|


I have noticed that the anti-semites used this to justify their anti-semitism, along the lines of saying "see, it's just as I suspected these peoples true loyalty is with Israel."

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 04:44 AM
I have noticed that the anti-semites used this to justify their anti-semitism, along the lines of saying "see, it's just as I suspected these peoples true loyalty is with Israel."

yes... read last two sentences in post 25

as for british jews they are just as confused abt the british class system as i am...so they dont understand them gentile lovers of monarchs either :)

but whatever ppl wanto to believe in uk not even in France w all the islamofascists they have roaming the streets did i feel the cold quintessential contempt that a zionist p-g can feel in England (brrrr...may be just my sensitivity... )

morticia
07-05-2015, 07:11 AM
There are a lot more complexities here, though, as well. Ok, so the Jews might feel a bit sidelined from the UK mainstream, but actually, Muslims are much more discriminated against by native British; meanwhile, the anti-Semitism, I would guess, is largely coming from the Muslim community. Sure, native Brits might criticise Israeli foreign policy at cocktail parties, but they're unlikely to get violent, at least not with the Jewish community. There seems to be a triangle of prejudice here, not just 2 groups.

C. Flower
07-05-2015, 07:45 AM
There are a lot more complexities here, though, as well. Ok, so the Jews might feel a bit sidelined from the UK mainstream, but actually, Muslims are much more discriminated against by native British; meanwhile, the anti-Semitism, I would guess, is largely coming from the Muslim community. Sure, native Brits might criticise Israeli foreign policy at cocktail parties, but they're unlikely to get violent, at least not with the Jewish community. There seems to be a triangle of prejudice here, not just 2 groups.

It isn't enough for us to sigh and say that racism is terrible though, it it ? I like the approach of SOS Racism in France, and the mass protests against racism and against neo fascism in Germany. Also, in the US its obvious from videos that thousands of white Americans are marching along with blacks against the racist police shootings. I'm not sure that there is anything like that in Ireland, perhaps because racism is more diffuse, 'out of sight' and low level.

Apjp
07-05-2015, 11:55 AM
this is a fallacy, the idea that other Arab tribes care about Palestinians.

I was reading today ISIS is bitterly fighting Hamas to get the spoils of Gaza.




if radical islamists actually do nuke or dirty bomb Israel out of existence you are talking about the next 6 million jews wiped out of existence in less than 100 years.

the whole idea makes me sick ....

a lot less likely to happen now that Obama seems to have nailed a deal with the iranians.

besides your british jews feel the same way my sister feels which is 'looking for another place to live is always an option' ..

(so I guess if i re-read my second sentence all that you clamor for may indeed happen)

This is silly season stuff.

Iran was never going to attack Israel. That's all rhetoric and far less dangerous than the rhetoric from America and Israel who have drectly threatened Iran on countless occasions.

Iran is slowly opening up while Israel hides behind Colonially constructed walls.

Apjp
07-05-2015, 11:57 AM
There are a lot more complexities here, though, as well. Ok, so the Jews might feel a bit sidelined from the UK mainstream, but actually, Muslims are much more discriminated against by native British; meanwhile, the anti-Semitism, I would guess, is largely coming from the Muslim community. Sure, native Brits might criticise Israeli foreign policy at cocktail parties, but they're unlikely to get violent, at least not with the Jewish community. There seems to be a triangle of prejudice here, not just 2 groups.

Again this is not true.

Britain will probably have a Jewish PM next week. How could that be possible if there was any real Anti-Jewish prejudice there?

I agree on the anti Muslim discrimination.

C. Flower
07-05-2015, 12:21 PM
Again this is not true.

Britain will probably have a Jewish PM next week. How could that be possible if there was any real Anti-Jewish prejudice there?

I agree on the anti Muslim discrimination.

And not for the first time.

I've read about more anti-Irish pogroms in Britain than anti Jewish ones.

morticia
07-05-2015, 12:27 PM
Again this is not true.

Britain will probably have a Jewish PM next week. How could that be possible if there was any real Anti-Jewish prejudice there?

I agree on the anti Muslim discrimination.

That's what I mean. In other words, the Jews are having problems with UK Muslims, the Muslims are having problems with some native Brits, but the native Brits tend to be very proud of their status as having kicked Hitlers ass in WWII and are not anti Semitic. Some may be anti Israeli foreign policy; that doesn't even go as far as anti-Zionism, just a wish they'd be a bit more moderate.
Anti Islamic sentiment on the part of native Brits is all pervasive though, even amongst the middle classes, judging by the comments of many on the issue while I lived there. Especially after 7/7.

morticia
07-05-2015, 12:34 PM
It isn't enough for us to sigh and say that racism is terrible though, it it ? I like the approach of SOS Racism in France, and the mass protests against racism and against neo fascism in Germany. Also, in the US its obvious from videos that thousands of white Americans are marching along with blacks against the racist police shootings. I'm not sure that there is anything like that in Ireland, perhaps because racism is more diffuse, 'out of sight' and low level.

Given that this thread concerns the UK, I'm not really sure there's anything we CAN do, other than handwringing.

Yes, re here, sure, work harder to combat racism. I'm not really sure how big an issue anti-Semitism is here though. Complaints about more extreme Israeli policies, yes. Actual anti Irish Jews racism, no. And we have a much smaller Muslim community than the UK, the sociological composition of which is very different. A lot of professional Arabs, not so many ex Empire Indians and Pakistanis. A lot of doctors, scientists and postgrad students, based on the people I've met.

So I'm not really sure what's needed? We don't really have any far right parties here either, so even Not Voting for the likes of UKIP or the BNP can't be done..

mark
07-05-2015, 12:39 PM
I wouldn't use the word 'wrong' as such. I think it is mostly ill-informed as it fails to put the issue into context whereby the Jews have been made to feel unsafe in most countries surrounding Israel. Maybe you should ask yourself why the Arab world, and much of the European left, has such a big problem with the idea of just one small Jewish country in the world.

Showing your true colours here. The poster admits that it is 'ill-informed' to be against the ongoing colonisation and ethic cleansing of Palestinian lands. The rest is simply deflection and straight out of the Hasbara handbook - claiming that other conflicts are somehow worse, false equivalence between antizionism and antisemitism. It 's crude enough to be from the Israeli embassy!

Maybe these stories from the past week alone will educate you as to why some people have no time for this zionist state:
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/6/kill_anything_israeli_soldiers_say_gaza
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-palestinians-government
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israeli-veterans-say-permissive-rules-of-engagement-fueled-gaza-carnage/2015/05/04/ab698d16-f020-11e4-8050-839e9234b303_story.html


but whatever ppl wanto to believe in uk not even in France w all the islamofascists they have roaming the streets did i feel the cold quintessential contempt that a zionist p-g can feel in England (brrrr...may be just my sensitivity... )

Ah yes those bands of 'Islamofacists' roaming the streets of France. I've lived there for three years and I can't say I've every come across this :confused:

Maybe you still believe that Muslim protesters attacked a synagogue, a story that was thoroughly debunked
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/eyewitness-debunks-claim-attack-paris-jews-bds-activists

For someone so quick to accuse others of a perceived racism you sure don't seem to have much of an issue with such blatantly islamophobic comments.

Apjp
07-05-2015, 01:40 PM
And not for the first time.

I've read about more anti-Irish pogroms in Britain than anti Jewish ones.

Indeed.

Apjp
07-05-2015, 01:45 PM
That's what I mean. In other words, the Jews are having problems with UK Muslims, the Muslims are having problems with some native Brits, but the native Brits tend to be very proud of their status as having kicked Hitlers ass in WWII and are not anti Semitic. Some may be anti Israeli foreign policy; that doesn't even go as far as anti-Zionism, just a wish they'd be a bit more moderate.
Anti Islamic sentiment on the part of native Brits is all pervasive though, even amongst the middle classes, judging by the comments of many on the issue while I lived there. Especially after 7/7.

I was lucky in London. A friend of mine who introduced me to his family were of mixed immigrant background, predominantly Lebanese and Scottish. He himself is a dual British/Australian/Lebanese citizen afaik. I saw the great side of the city for about a week back in February as a result.

London has had all the social benefits of multiculturalism but it has come at a heavy price as neoliberalism there has been embedded especially in housing and planning. People have begun to rail against it and I recall Johnson being forced to oppose his own party on Housing Benefit cuts and even making some very crass accusations against the govt. purely due to the pressure of public opinion(helped of course by his own desire to be liked by everyone, Tory Voter or not, and to appear as a 'reasonable centrist'-he is centrist on some things and Thatcherite on others). Housing campaigns are ongoing and concessions are slowly being won.

I think accusations of anti Jewish sentiment in Britain are pure nonsense.

Apjp
07-05-2015, 01:47 PM
Given that this thread concerns the UK, I'm not really sure there's anything we CAN do, other than handwringing.

Yes, re here, sure, work harder to combat racism. I'm not really sure how big an issue anti-Semitism is here though. Complaints about more extreme Israeli policies, yes. Actual anti Irish Jews racism, no. And we have a much smaller Muslim community than the UK, the sociological composition of which is very different. A lot of professional Arabs, not so many ex Empire Indians and Pakistanis. A lot of doctors, scientists and postgrad students, based on the people I've met.

So I'm not really sure what's needed? We don't really have any far right parties here either, so even Not Voting for the likes of UKIP or the BNP can't be done..

Well there is the DUP haha

morticia
07-05-2015, 01:53 PM
I think accusations of anti Jewish sentiment in Britain are pure nonsense.


Agree with the rest of what you said.....Well, apart from Muslim on Jew attacks and the tiny minority in the BNP...I think the anti Semitism is probably overstated?

I'd hasten to add that the Koran stipulates respect for all "people of the Book" (Muslims, Christians, Jews), but as with many religious texts, some ignore that bit....

Tbh, I'd suspect the native British population are at almost as much risk from Muslims as Jews are too, but in that case, there's a vice versa.

The Iraq war opened such a can of worms. I protested and signed petitions while I lived there; what else can be done?

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 02:15 PM
There are a lot more complexities here, though, as well. Ok, so the Jews might feel a bit sidelined from the UK mainstream, but actually, Muslims are much more discriminated against by native British; meanwhile, the anti-Semitism, I would guess, is largely coming from the Muslim community. Sure, native Brits might criticise Israeli foreign policy at cocktail parties, but they're unlikely to get violent, at least not with the Jewish community. There seems to be a triangle of prejudice here, not just 2 groups.

hhmmm nah these five pieces at the Tablet tackle quintessential british (non-muslim) anti-semitism

that is why they are all so interesting

i, for once, was able to recognize a number of situations

This (in orange) is the reason i have aggravated myself on many occasions raising this concern:

"The new anti-Zionism, which is becoming ever more pronounced, feels the same way that anti-Semitism does: a singling out, discrimination, them turning against us. One reason for this equivalence of feeling is that there is a very real element of anti-Semitism wrapped up in fervid anti-Zionist sentiment. But another is that in the past 50 years many British Jews have become, in part, culturally Israeli. Zionism is at the heart of their Jewish identity. Israel’s travails drive much of their political engagement. Israeli culture is a part of their daily lives."


you get the whiff of this "fervid" anti-zionist sentiment from white britain not muslim britain ...that is why the series is entitled "A Polite Hatred"

in France the hatred is clearly muslim v jew due to current political affairs in the ME.

NOT so in Britain.

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 02:25 PM
This is silly season stuff.

Iran was never going to attack Israel. That's all rhetoric and far less dangerous than the rhetoric from America and Israel who have drectly threatened Iran on countless occasions.

Iran is slowly opening up while Israel hides behind Colonially constructed walls.

:) OKaye!

look Iran is opening up cos Obama has been working on this since he was elected, his goal is to sign a Nuclear deal w Iran before he leaves office, i think it will be finalized in June. So, for that reason Iran is less likely to attack Israel .. but even then, i wouldn't put it past them... cos of the concessions he has had to make. Maybe we are buying 10 years?

morticia
07-05-2015, 02:45 PM
hhmmm nah these five pieces at the Tablet tackle quintessential british (non-muslim) anti-semitism

that is why they are all so interesting

i, for once, was able to recognize a number of situations

This (in orange) is the reason i have aggravated myself on many occasions raising this concern:

"The new anti-Zionism, which is becoming ever more pronounced, feels the same way that anti-Semitism does: a singling out, discrimination, them turning against us. One reason for this equivalence of feeling is that there is a very real element of anti-Semitism wrapped up in fervid anti-Zionist sentiment. But another is that in the past 50 years many British Jews have become, in part, culturally Israeli. Zionism is at the heart of their Jewish identity. Israel’s travails drive much of their political engagement. Israeli culture is a part of their daily lives."


you get the whiff of this "fervid" anti-zionist sentiment from white britain not muslim britain ...that is why the series is entitled "A Polite Hatred"

in France the hatred is clearly muslim v jew due to current political affairs in the ME.

NOT so in Britain.

This is overstated. Frankly, I think Miliband has Jewish roots, he might be about to become PM. You could of course argue that making someone PM is the ultimate in prejudice (sleepless nights, 24/7 work), but most peeps wouldn't see it that way.

There's a huge overlap in Jewish minds (as you've stated) between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. While I understand this somewhat self-alienating POV from a historical perspective, the minds of non-Jews see a dislike of Jews as racism and a dislike of Israeli foreign/Palestine policy as a separate and entirely political abstract viewpoint.

You are correct to point out that we must be aware they are conflated by Jews, but equally, you must be aware that the rest of us tend to see them as totally separate.

And you've said yourself you're not too happy Binny got back in....QED....[emoji12][emoji6]

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 02:55 PM
You are correct to point out that we must be aware they are conflated by Jews, but equally, you must be aware that the rest of us tend to see them as totally separate.


i will highlight again that the purpose of those 5 pieces is to show this is NOT true. It is not separate although you (british ppl in general, not you Morticia) may tell yerself in yer sleep, it is.

There is anti-zionism which after years of talking to you guys i understand to be 'anti-expansionism' and there's 'fervid anti-zionism' which is not in way separate from anti-semitism.



And you've said yourself you're not too happy Binny got back in....QED....[emoji12][emoji6]

this is correct, i truly dislike the creature.

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 03:24 PM
if the purpose of a forum like this is to open some lines of communication then let me post Part I of V of A Polite Hatred.

This was written by Howard Jacobson.

rny
---


The Jewish Jane Austen or England’s Jeremiah @ The Tablet (http://tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/189204/a-polite-hatred-1-jacobson?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=post&utm_content=The+Jewish+Jane+Austen%2C+or+England%E 2%80%99s+Jeremiah%3F&utm_campaign=feb2015)

Jacobson rarely goes to synagogue. He doesn’t often go to Israel. He has never become a tribal paterfamilias and is not surrounded by chattering Jewish grandchildren. His main journalistic outlet is as a columnist for a left-wing newspaper The Independent, which most British Jews revile for its lurid coverage of Israel.

Yet from his aerie in Soho Jacobson has managed to articulate the sentiments of the tribe of English Jews. He feels what they feel, and with his raucous, neurotic eloquence he distills it into words. In his two most recent books, The Finkler Question and J, he has captured the fear and selfloathing that now surrounds the issues of Israel and anti-Semitism in Britain. Somehow, this outsider has become the closest thing British Jews have to a modern prophet.

The difficulty all British Jews face with growing anti-Zionism is how to interpret it. What is legitimate criticism and what is something else? (…). Jacobson’s strength on this issue is his ability to sort the anti-Semitic wheat from the anti-Israel chaff. Like many secular Jews he is clearly uncomfortable with the Bennettist millenarian nationalism that has grown in influence in Israel. But he thinks “everyone’s always banging on about that.” Instead the war he chooses to wage is against anti-Zionism; the language, the sophistries, and the double standards. In recent years he has become England’s anti-Zionism code-reader-in-chief.

For this task he is almost uniquely well-suited. Jacobson is nothing if not a fierce and passionate student of the uses and misuses of the English language. And mainstream anti-Semitism (as opposed to fringe thuggery) in Britain is primarily a linguistic phenomenon: “you catch it on the edge of a remark,” as Harold Abrahams said in Chariots of Fire. It is about inflection, tone, disproportionate focus, and the knowing misapplication of words such as genocide, apartheid, and Nazi.

“Israel has become the pretext [for anti-Semitism] not because I choose it to be, but because they have,” he says in his gruff but melodious north Manchester accent, still with him despite decades of living in London. “All the unsayable things, all the things they know they can’t say about Jews in a post-Holocaust liberal society, they can say again now. Israel has desacralized the subject. It’s a space in which everything is allowed again.”

Jacobson was born in 1942. Three weeks later the Nazis decided to burn the bodies from the gas chambers at Auschwitz in open pits. Four weeks later they dug up 100,000 corpses already gassed and burned them in the pits. Like most Jews of his generation, his nerves jangle at any hint of anti-Semitism. His despair is that he has come to believe it now will never go away, that if it didn’t go away after the horrors of Auschwitz then it is a permanent, necessary, embedded part of Western and, increasingly, Islamic culture. His despair is his fear that the future—the future of J—will look just like the past. Given this, it isn’t a huge surprise then that his next book is an adaptation of The Merchant of Venice.

Jacobson is adamant that he is not frightened of the English. He says he is frightened of French-style Muslim anti-Semitism and its confluence with the illiberal, Israel-hating forces of the left who are wearing down what it is acceptable to say and not to say toward the Jews in England. He finds himself doubting he would feel completely secure in Britain should Israel find itself locked not in another nasty, brutish, and short conflict in Gaza but in a long, ferocious, war with Iran. This is the anxiety that flickers in and out of view in J: Boycott picketers might morph into slaughters at an Israeli art gallery.

---

please read the entire piece and let it settle in your brain before adding commentary....

the "polite hatred" comes from the fact that WE pick it up 'on the edge of a remark' (as i often do )... it is inflection, tone, disproportionate focus and the knowing misappropriation of words such as genocide, apartheid and Nazi.

rny

---

morticia
07-05-2015, 04:18 PM
I think fervid anti Zionism and/or anti Semitism are pretty rare. Sure, you might be uncomfortable with some Save the Palestinians style opinions, but I've no doubt I'd get the same sort of thing if I expressed my views on Northern Ireland on a Tory website. Or my views on Scottish independence for that matter. I think it's mostly just political opinion.

C. Flower
07-05-2015, 05:10 PM
Agree with the rest of what you said.....Well, apart from Muslim on Jew attacks and the tiny minority in the BNP...I think the anti Semitism is probably overstated?

I'd hasten to add that the Koran stipulates respect for all "people of the Book" (Muslims, Christians, Jews), but as with many religious texts, some ignore that bit....

Tbh, I'd suspect the native British population are at almost as much risk from Muslims as Jews are too, but in that case, there's a vice versa.

The Iraq war opened such a can of worms. I protested and signed petitions while I lived there; what else can be done?

If we are running through racist action in the UK, white attacks on black people have the track record.

C. Flower
07-05-2015, 05:13 PM
if the purpose of a forum like this is to open some lines of communication then let me post Part I of V of A Polite Hatred.

This was written by Howard Jacobson.

rny
---


The Jewish Jane Austen or England’s Jeremiah @ The Tablet (http://tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/189204/a-polite-hatred-1-jacobson?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=post&utm_content=The+Jewish+Jane+Austen%2C+or+England%E 2%80%99s+Jeremiah%3F&utm_campaign=feb2015)

Jacobson rarely goes to synagogue. He doesn’t often go to Israel. He has never become a tribal paterfamilias and is not surrounded by chattering Jewish grandchildren. His main journalistic outlet is as a columnist for a left-wing newspaper The Independent, which most British Jews revile for its lurid coverage of Israel.

Yet from his aerie in Soho Jacobson has managed to articulate the sentiments of the tribe of English Jews. He feels what they feel, and with his raucous, neurotic eloquence he distills it into words. In his two most recent books, The Finkler Question and J, he has captured the fear and selfloathing that now surrounds the issues of Israel and anti-Semitism in Britain. Somehow, this outsider has become the closest thing British Jews have to a modern prophet.

The difficulty all British Jews face with growing anti-Zionism is how to interpret it. What is legitimate criticism and what is something else? (…). Jacobson’s strength on this issue is his ability to sort the anti-Semitic wheat from the anti-Israel chaff. Like many secular Jews he is clearly uncomfortable with the Bennettist millenarian nationalism that has grown in influence in Israel. But he thinks “everyone’s always banging on about that.” Instead the war he chooses to wage is against anti-Zionism; the language, the sophistries, and the double standards. In recent years he has become England’s anti-Zionism code-reader-in-chief.

For this task he is almost uniquely well-suited. Jacobson is nothing if not a fierce and passionate student of the uses and misuses of the English language. And mainstream anti-Semitism (as opposed to fringe thuggery) in Britain is primarily a linguistic phenomenon: “you catch it on the edge of a remark,” as Harold Abrahams said in Chariots of Fire. It is about inflection, tone, disproportionate focus, and the knowing misapplication of words such as genocide, apartheid, and Nazi.

“Israel has become the pretext [for anti-Semitism] not because I choose it to be, but because they have,” he says in his gruff but melodious north Manchester accent, still with him despite decades of living in London. “All the unsayable things, all the things they know they can’t say about Jews in a post-Holocaust liberal society, they can say again now. Israel has desacralized the subject. It’s a space in which everything is allowed again.”

Jacobson was born in 1942. Three weeks later the Nazis decided to burn the bodies from the gas chambers at Auschwitz in open pits. Four weeks later they dug up 100,000 corpses already gassed and burned them in the pits. Like most Jews of his generation, his nerves jangle at any hint of anti-Semitism. His despair is that he has come to believe it now will never go away, that if it didn’t go away after the horrors of Auschwitz then it is a permanent, necessary, embedded part of Western and, increasingly, Islamic culture. His despair is his fear that the future—the future of J—will look just like the past. Given this, it isn’t a huge surprise then that his next book is an adaptation of The Merchant of Venice.

Jacobson is adamant that he is not frightened of the English. He says he is frightened of French-style Muslim anti-Semitism and its confluence with the illiberal, Israel-hating forces of the left who are wearing down what it is acceptable to say and not to say toward the Jews in England. He finds himself doubting he would feel completely secure in Britain should Israel find itself locked not in another nasty, brutish, and short conflict in Gaza but in a long, ferocious, war with Iran. This is the anxiety that flickers in and out of view in J: Boycott picketers might morph into slaughters at an Israeli art gallery.

---

please read the entire piece and let it settle in your brain before adding commentary....

the "polite hatred" comes from the fact that WE pick it up 'on the edge of a remark' (as i often do )... it is inflection, tone, disproportionate focus and the knowing misappropriation of words such as genocide, apartheid and Nazi.

rny

---

Did you post this previously somewhere ? I've definitely read it before. The UK is riven with all kinds of class and ethnic difference - as a society it is pretty well integrated overall (leaving aside the Scots it seems). Jewish people have definitely been much less discriminated against than have black people. The biggest and most damaging discrimination is class i.e. the belief that certain layers by birth are entitled to a much better life than the rest.

Saoirse go Deo
07-05-2015, 05:54 PM
Did you post this previously somewhere ? I've definitely read it before. The UK is riven with all kinds of class and ethnic difference - as a society it is pretty well integrated overall (leaving aside the Scots it seems). Jewish people have definitely been much less discriminated against than have black people. The biggest and most damaging discrimination is class i.e. the belief that certain layers by birth are entitled to a much better life than the rest.

Perfectly exemplified by the birth of the latest "royal" leech.

morticia
07-05-2015, 06:20 PM
Did you post this previously somewhere ? I've definitely read it before. The UK is riven with all kinds of class and ethnic difference - as a society it is pretty well integrated overall (leaving aside the Scots it seems). Jewish people have definitely been much less discriminated against than have black people. The biggest and most damaging discrimination is class i.e. the belief that certain layers by birth are entitled to a much better life than the rest.

I'd completely agree with this. One gets the "edge of a remark" as an Irish person too, but it appears my English husband has a far bigger complex about the treatment meted out to him for having a working class rural accent in his youth. I've had to listen to people on the radio citing CBI surveys ranking UK regional accents in terms of employability too; posh English and Scots good, apparently, Welsh and Brummie sound "lazy". According to the CBI. For all their many faults, at least IBEC don't broadcast that on the radio!

The UK is riven with prejudice of all kinds. It is enormously hierarchical and patriarchal...everything is assessed when people meet one to slot one into whatever preconceived categories exist in some people's minds, and the higher up the scale they see themselves, sometimes, the worse it gets.

So I'm sure Jewish people maybe see themselves as outsiders, perhaps, but what they don't realise is that there are many outsider groups.

As one 2nd generation immigrant interviewed by the Guardian put it once "One can become British, but never English". Surname, accent, colour, religion, they all serve to segregate....

And yes, while it is not the topic of this thread, discrimination against black and Pakistani/Bangladeshi origin immigrants is statistically the worst.

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 07:31 PM
I think fervid anti Zionism and/or anti Semitism are pretty rare. Sure, you might be uncomfortable with some Save the Palestinians style opinions, but I've no doubt I'd get the same sort of thing if I expressed my views on Northern Ireland on a Tory website. Or my views on Scottish independence for that matter. I think it's mostly just political opinion.


this is not a fair comment either

Obviously I have zero problems with the Save the Palestinians opinions, i am quite fond of people (all peoples) self-determination, survival and right to live in peace with dignity. All of which are considerably difficult in some of the Occupied Territories of Palestine at the moment.

My problem as i have explained before is the misuse of the word Zionism as it tends to reflect the fact that people are viscerally, vitriolic against the very existence of the state of Israel.

My opinion on the Independence of Scotland is that they deserve what they get, they are british first and foremost, anyone that celebrates births of royal babies is a lover of monarchies and therefore should not complain about what 'disgrace' befalls them ... [ a cpl Scottish friends who are also FOR independence of Scotland celebrating the latest? - WTF was that?] - so i sit here w you guys cos at least i dont have to endure you going off on that kind of **** ...

Northern Ireland to be quite honest even after Shaadi patiently sat for hours explaining these politics i am not sure i get it to be able to comment... [ Maybe they are like the Scots? they dont really know whom to love? ]

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 07:37 PM
Did you post this previously somewhere ? I've definitely read it before. The UK is riven with all kinds of class and ethnic difference - as a society it is pretty well integrated overall (leaving aside the Scots it seems). Jewish people have definitely been much less discriminated against than have black people. The biggest and most damaging discrimination is class i.e. the belief that certain layers by birth are entitled to a much better life than the rest.


i am not sure

it is possible i posted this particular piece before as i really enjoy Jacobson and can relate to more than just a few things he says (although i am not a british jew)

[i have all 5 Polite Hatred articles in my blog so i got it from there]

oh YES re last statement (i also imagine that blacks are more discriminated against even in Britain)

random new yorker
07-05-2015, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
Did you post this previously somewhere ? I've definitely read it before. The UK is riven with all kinds of class and ethnic difference - as a society it is pretty well integrated overall (leaving aside the Scots it seems). Jewish people have definitely been much less discriminated against than have black people. The biggest and most damaging discrimination is class i.e. the belief that certain layers by birth are entitled to a much better life than the rest.


Perfectly exemplified by the birth of the latest "royal" leech.

:) read my post #50

i think i am arriving at the same conclusion via different route :) re the Scots .. (or maybe i mis-read this)

---

also to keep ppl on track the Polite Hatred series is not about blatant discrimination of jews as regards thuggery

it is about the subtle, insidious, slow dripping, soft-edged looking hatred that permeates british society especially the higher classes that control main stream media.

Hapax
07-05-2015, 08:11 PM
I live near the embassy belt in Dublin, and there were regular protests, much one would expect, outside the Israeli embassy during last year's conflict.

I have never, on any occasion, seen any left-wing group (or any Irish person, for that matter) demonstrate in solidarity with Falun Gong members that regularly protest outside the Chinese embassy. So I cannot help but think Israel is singled out for disproportione criticism or protests.

Just coming to this thread now, so though the conversation has moved on, I'll just respond to this from much earlier with this information from the web-site of the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSC):


The official founder of the IPSC was Tom Hyland, who already had almost legendary status as chairman of the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign (ETISC), and for the first two years of its existence the IPSC would share an office with ETISC in Dame Street, in the centre of Dublin (the IPSC’s present office, coincidentally, is in the same street). Of the other founding members, Barbara O’Shea and Raymond Deane also had links to ETISC

http://www.ipsc.ie/about/history

I'd suggest this counters the accusation of disproportionate criticism of Israel. These campaigners cut their teeth as activists in defending the rights of the (predominantly non-Muslim) East Timorese against the occupation by the (primarily Muslim) Indonesian state. Their campaigning, as is the case of many more supporters of the IPSC is not based on religion or ethnicity, but to build solidarity against occupation and terror.

morticia
07-05-2015, 09:00 PM
:)

it is about the subtle, insidious, slow dripping, soft-edged looking hatred that permeates british society especially the higher classes that control main stream media.

As I pointed out earlier, the English upper classes have a visceral distaste for anyone who isn't the English upper classes. It appears British Jewry is taking this personally, whereas in fact the disdain is aimed at everyone else and serves to reinforce some "shallow grave" style buried superiority complex.

Just look at the way some of Prince William's friends referred to Kate Middleton as "doors to manual"; her mother had been an air hostess for a few years. As far as I know, she had no links to Judaism (but is probably having the last laugh).

And as for vitriolic anti Zionism, I think most accept the right of Israel to exist, it's just a dislike of white phosphorous being used in Gaza and other such blatant human rights violations. Since I have no doubt you'd disapprove of some of those things yourself, why castigate the rest of us for being mildly critical.

Frankly, the British middle classes are actually too busy being paranoid about 7/7 tube bombings and mad imams to be worried about Israel these days anyway; ISIS appears to be a propaganda gift in that regard. Not that they needed encouraging.

I wonder if the current erosion of benefits under the Tories is permitted because of the perception amongst sections of the white population that it's all going to niqab and explosive bearing slit eyed radicals?? (A tiny minority, but one that generates excessive paranoia levels). Tbh, in comparison with less white racial minorities in the UK, Jews have precious little to worry about....snide remarks at cocktail parties all seems part of the normal "are you from our section of the old boys club" style vetting process.

Apologies for my cynicism, I think I lived there 5 years too long. Not that there aren't a lot of lovely genuine people, but there's also a lot of **** we don't have to deal with anywhere else in the Anglozone, it's more meritocratic by far.

pluralist
07-05-2015, 09:28 PM
Again this is not true.

Britain will probably have a Jewish PM next week. How could that be possible if there was any real Anti-Jewish prejudice there?

I agree on the anti Muslim discrimination.

Best get the mods to close the "Ferguson protests" and similar threads, after all the US has had a black president for the last seven years so there can't be any racism there, right?

random new yorker
08-05-2015, 02:13 AM
As I pointed out earlier, the English upper classes have a visceral distaste for anyone who isn't the English upper classes. It appears British Jewry is taking this personally, whereas in fact the disdain is aimed at everyone else and serves to reinforce some "shallow grave" style buried superiority complex.

Sure, it is easy to believe English upper classes feel equal contempt for all others not in same class (independently of race or religion).

but we are discussing British polite hatred against jews cos that's the topic of the thread and the intent of the Tablet V part series.. it is about what you pick on the edges of a sentence, a sigh, a half-finished word, and the constant vitriolic use of words like apartheid and the most offensive "Nazi".

the vitriol against Zionism comes across as hatred to the 'Jew', no matter where in the world he/she is, British or not. This is not about British Jewry.

What i am saying is that British vitriol against Zionism comes across as hatred to ALL Jews on the planet (w the rare exception), it comes across as hatred against me, it is also translated into all other languages and it propagates like an infectious disease ... picked up everywhere, i find it insidious, just like the British slow drip of info about the royals, and then you end up with a good number of the 60 Million Brits effectively brainwashed (including the smart ones) to love the royalty, they use exactly the same method against the jew, slowly ... a tiny little serving of hatred, just a dusting, every day.

morticia
08-05-2015, 05:39 AM
Look, if I had a penny for every snotty remark I'd ever heard about the IRA, Irish banks, Irish independence and all sorts of other issues, I'd be a wealthy woman. I'd not disbelieve you, it's just you aren't tuning in to all the other multitudinous prejudices that are nothing to do with Jews.

Try having Scottish roots and commenting on the SNP to many English....result; ear bent for 30 minutes.

It ain't just Jews, pet, honest!

Apjp
08-05-2015, 01:00 PM
:) OKaye!

look Iran is opening up cos Obama has been working on this since he was elected, his goal is to sign a Nuclear deal w Iran before he leaves office, i think it will be finalized in June. So, for that reason Iran is less likely to attack Israel .. but even then, i wouldn't put it past them... cos of the concessions he has had to make. Maybe we are buying 10 years?

Silly stuff.

Thousands of Irish tourists have visited Iran.

Most of them boycott Israel because access to what's left of Palestine is denied.

Iran wants foreigners to come. Iran is a massive market too with a Govt. that is not immediately hostile to most countries, bar the two countries aforementioned that are forever threatening them.

One element of the Obama govt. wanted to seal this deal, another, the Clinton leaning faction I'd suspect, wanted all out crazy day.

What will it be like when Obama is gone I wonder and the real crazies like Clinton or the Republicans take over.

I have met a good few Iranian people in my building and they are salt of the Earth people. Things cannot be so bad if they are let study overseas and the govt. wants this friendly enough deal with America and the West.

Israel and the true crazies of American politics(most current politicians) will do their best to stop that and provoke a war or conflict though.

pluralist
08-05-2015, 01:05 PM
Silly stuff.

Thousands of Irish tourists have visited Iran.

Most of them boycott Israel because access to what's left of Palestine is denied.

I haven't seen the figures but I would be quite surprised if more Irish have visited Iran than Israel.

Apjp
08-05-2015, 01:17 PM
Best get the mods to close the "Ferguson protests" and similar threads, after all the US has had a black president for the last seven years so there can't be any racism there, right?

That would be a brilliant point in the context of America where black men are being shot dead daily by the out of control Police State, which I very much doubt the Federal Govt. can control at this stage.

But in the context of a country like Britain which has had Jewish PM's and Cabinet Ministers, leading Jewish people in all walks of life, and who is a big ally to Israel, not to mention where sympathies are generally pro Israeli and the bulk of racism is against Muslims, Romanians, Roma and black people, well it's just plain silly.

My point is the Jewish community in Britain is well represented throughout the Technocratic caste system that Britain is.

Whereas One black man(okay the last Attorney General was black too) who had a head start in life and corporate and media backing in election campaigns in Govt. in a Chaotic Corporate Police State ain't really saying much for social mobility and the general deprivation among the American black community is it. I very much doubt Jewish communities in Britain can possibly be as deprived as black people in Detroit or Baltimore either, a point Obama has made in fairness too of late.

Apjp
08-05-2015, 01:23 PM
this is not a fair comment either

Obviously I have zero problems with the Save the Palestinians opinions, i am quite fond of people (all peoples) self-determination, survival and right to live in peace with dignity. All of which are considerably difficult in some of the Occupied Territories of Palestine at the moment.

My problem as i have explained before is the misuse of the word Zionism as it tends to reflect the fact that people are viscerally, vitriolic against the very existence of the state of Israel.

My opinion on the Independence of Scotland is that they deserve what they get, they are british first and foremost, anyone that celebrates births of royal babies is a lover of monarchies and therefore should not complain about what 'disgrace' befalls them ... [ a cpl Scottish friends who are also FOR independence of Scotland celebrating the latest? - WTF was that?] - so i sit here w you guys cos at least i dont have to endure you going off on that kind of **** ...

Northern Ireland to be quite honest even after Shaadi patiently sat for hours explaining these politics i am not sure i get it to be able to comment... [ Maybe they are like the Scots? they dont really know whom to love? ]

Well Yes I do think Israel is an illegitimate racist and colonial State. I don't see how it could be anything but that especially now with religious lunatics in govt. with that war criminal Nutsanyahoo.

It seems obvious you need the unity of Occupied Palestine and Colonial Palestine and the Colonial regime in Israel needs to be overthrown for people to come together and demand change. This will only happen when people in Israel/Colonial Palestine stop seeing Palistinians the way the Nazis saw them and vote in a government that accepts Palistinian Independence and equal rights for all Palistinians in all parts of traditional Palestine.

Apjp
08-05-2015, 01:30 PM
Look, if I had a penny for every snotty remark I'd ever heard about the IRA, Irish banks, Irish independence and all sorts of other issues, I'd be a wealthy woman. I'd not disbelieve you, it's just you aren't tuning in to all the other multitudinous prejudices that are nothing to do with Jews.

Try having Scottish roots and commenting on the SNP to many English....result; ear bent for 30 minutes.

It ain't just Jews, pet, honest!

They really don't know the Brits that well, do they?

You haven't had a British friend til he's made several offensive jokes about your background.

The Irish Jokes are tiresome but sadly inevitable. This idea that Jews are somehow any more the target than anyone else is 'daft', to borrow an English word.

I never get it with Scots or Welsh people though!!! Never!

Anybody surprised at general British racism should look at the racist slurs that are allowed be printed towards their fellow countrymen in the national press on a daily basis. Such stuff in Ireland would be considered hate speech or defamation, even down to calling Sturgeon 'the country's most dangerous woman'. No way that sort of sexism would be printed.

Discrimination is the dominant and all pervasive view in British society, but some people, like Scots to some extent, and Arabs and Eastern Europeans to a far more hateful extent, bear the brunt.

London is very much the antithesis of this mentality which is why everybody loves it.

Apjp
08-05-2015, 01:35 PM
I haven't seen the figures but I would be quite surprised if more Irish have visited Iran than Israel.

The truth is out there my friend.

I have never met an Irish person, besides Catholic Teachers and Priests, who had a sincere desire to visit the 'holy land'.

It's a shame a union like Bosnia and Herzegovina would not be a possible solution, but Israel hates Palestine too much and wants to bomb Gaza into the sea.

pluralist
08-05-2015, 04:16 PM
The truth is out there my friend.

I have never met an Irish person, besides Catholic Teachers and Priests, who had a sincere desire to visit the 'holy land'.

It's a shame a union like Bosnia and Herzegovina would not be a possible solution, but Israel hates Palestine too much and wants to bomb Gaza into the sea.

I know several Irish people that have visited Israel, some for business, others holiday. In the former case, it is nothing to do with priests or nuns or anything holy, more to do with the mutually profitable and beneficial arragnments that exist between Irish and Israeli IT professionals. I do not personally know of anyone that have visited Iran, though I know of plenty that have hostile views towards Israel but a blind spot regarding Arab dictatorships and human rights abuses, probably because their only source of information regarding such matters is from whatever extreme left wing pamplets they read.

Incidentally, the fact that Irish media and some politicians are very anti-Israel is quite well known in Israel and many Israelis are mystified by this. "Surely the Irish can empathise with a historically oppressed people", they will say.

The truth is, as you say, out there.

morticia
08-05-2015, 04:43 PM
They really don't know the Brits that well, do they?

You haven't had a British friend til he's made several offensive jokes about your background.

The Irish Jokes are tiresome but sadly inevitable. This idea that Jews are somehow any more the target than anyone else is 'daft', to borrow an English word.

I never get it with Scots or Welsh people though!!! Never!

Anybody surprised at general British racism should look at the racist slurs that are allowed be printed towards their fellow countrymen in the national press on a daily basis. Such stuff in Ireland would be considered hate speech or defamation, even down to calling Sturgeon 'the country's most dangerous woman'. No way that sort of sexism would be printed.

Discrimination is the dominant and all pervasive view in British society, but some people, like Scots to some extent, and Arabs and Eastern Europeans to a far more hateful extent, bear the brunt.

London is very much the antithesis of this mentality which is why everybody loves it.

Dead right. The only way to fight back, though, is with humour, and in fairness, that is respected and enjoyed. I'll give 'em that [emoji23]

morticia
08-05-2015, 04:51 PM
Incidentally, the fact that Irish media and some politicians are very anti-Israel is quite well known in Israel and many Israelis are mystified by this. "Surely the Irish can empathise with a historically oppressed people", they will say.

The truth is, as you say, out there.

Ireland has good business and scientific links with Israel; and I think there are plenty of us that would dislike the whole Israeli Palestinian situation, but would be even less impressed with some of the Arab dictators.

Ireland being small, and the Irish being well travelled, what many do is to use a joint citizenship they're entitled to, use a UK or US passport to go to Israel, and use an Irish one to visit the Muslim parts of the ME. Many Arab nations won't let you in apparently, if you've an Israeli stamp on the passport [emoji6].

Sure the Irish can sympathise with the oppressed. It's just pretty clear to us that the Palestinians are more oppressed than the Israelis right now. However, if ISIS actually succeeded in doing Israel any damage, or if Iran developed nukes and used them (both v unlikely for many many reasons), the public POV here would do a volte face overnight.

random new yorker
08-05-2015, 10:40 PM
Well Yes I do think Israel is an illegitimate racist and colonial State. I don't see how it could be anything but that especially now with religious lunatics in govt. with that war criminal Nutsanyahoo.

what do you mean by illegitimate?

you cause my heart to pounce as i read this line

pouncing!!

so, pls tell me what are the implications of your statement that Israel is an illegitimate state.

Donal Og
09-05-2015, 12:20 AM
I have friends who visited Iran since the 70s. I have friends who worked on a kibbutz. What is 'an extreme left wing pamphlet'? And where the **** can I get one?:D

Donal Og
09-05-2015, 12:24 AM
Ireland has good business and scientific links with Israel; and I think there are plenty of us that would dislike the whole Israeli Palestinian situation, but would be even less impressed with some of the Arab dictators.

Ireland being small, and the Irish being well travelled, what many do is to use a joint citizenship they're entitled to, use a UK or US passport to go to Israel, and use an Irish one to visit the Muslim parts of the ME. Many Arab nations won't let you in apparently, if you've an Israeli stamp on the passport [emoji6].

Sure the Irish can sympathise with the oppressed. It's just pretty clear to us that the Palestinians are more oppressed than the Israelis right now. However, if ISIS actually succeeded in doing Israel any damage, or if Iran developed nukes and used them (both v unlikely for many many reasons), the public POV here would do a volte face overnight.
Aontaim leat Morticia. Graham Greene said a writer has a right to change sides. Because a writer's duty is to stand up for the victim. And the victim is always changing.

morticia
09-05-2015, 06:56 AM
Good point [emoji2]

MauriceColgan
09-05-2015, 03:23 PM
I lived in a very Jewish locality in and around Manchester so have first hand experience of the problem which has many people on forums walking on eggshells.
The Middle East situation has hardened many views. Mine too. I admire the Jewish people's huge contribution to culture. How can we not?

But the insane attempts to claim a God gave them the Land of Israel, and more, is just pure lunacy. We are all paying for it now.

random new yorker
09-05-2015, 03:39 PM
I lived in a very Jewish locality in and around Manchester so have first hand experience of the problem which has many people on forums walking on eggshells.
The Middle East situation has hardened many views. Mine too. I admire the Jewish people's huge contribution to culture. How can we not?

But the insane attempts to claim a God gave them the Land of Israel, and more, is just pure lunacy. We are all paying for it now.

what are YOU paying for, exactly? :confused:

in my opinion G-d didnt give the jews the land of Israel as it didnt give the land of Eire to irish people.

you fight for territory today exactly for the same reasons you fought 10000, 1000, 500 or 100 years ago.

morticia
09-05-2015, 04:12 PM
We are all paying for Israel, I am afraid, but a lot of the blame needs to be placed with Adolf Hitler, and a lot of the blame for him lies with the Treaty of Versailles; back to the big colonial powers again.

The ensuing unrest in the ME is not all down to Israel either, oil wars carry a good chunk of blame as well.

But we will pay for it all, probably for hundreds of years to come.

How much will the migrant situation cost the EU? How many points of US and UK GDP have been sliced off by futile wars? They are our largest trading partners. What if that money had gone into alternative energy instead?

We will never know.

random new yorker
09-05-2015, 04:29 PM
We are all paying for Israel, I am afraid, but a lot of the blame needs to be placed with Adolf Hitler, and a lot of the blame for him lies with the Treaty of Versailles; back to the big colonial powers again.

The ensuing unrest in the ME is not all down to Israel either, oil wars carry a good chunk of blame as well.

agreed


How much will the migrant situation cost the EU?

we need to put this 'budding' potentially colossal problem for the EU under the perspective of the huge technological and health care advances in the past 50 years.

the fact is that western international medical care has saved millions and millions of people in Africa alone; now they have access to cell phones and the internet and as any other human beings on the planet they want a better life for themselves.

If the economies of the countries they live in can't provide the jobs needed or the standard of living they now wish for they will emigrate and the boats or suitcases full of people will keep coming cos they are looking for betterment of their current life, like the waves of irish and italians etc that emigrated to the US in the late 1800s/early 1900s. And then of course you have war refugees of one kind or another as you always had. War refugees are not the game changer tho, but rather it is the betterment of quality of life in subsaharan Africa, as it is better but not good enough; these economies dont even employ 50% of the people they have actively looking for a job.

MauriceColgan
09-05-2015, 05:36 PM
what are YOU paying for, exactly? :confused:

in my opinion G-d didnt give the jews the land of Israel as it didnt give the land of Eire to irish people.

you fight for territory today exactly for the same reasons you fought 10000, 1000, 500 or 100 years ago.

For backing Israel to the hilt the USA has us taking off our shoes at airports in Ireland and just about everywhere else.

Irish people fought for Ireland without having to deal with drones from another state destroying us at will.

Because of Israel's actions the whole middle east has been turned into a war zone. playing into the hands of worlds greatest military industrial complex. Just ask Eisenhower about that.

random new yorker
09-05-2015, 10:10 PM
For backing Israel to the hilt the USA has us taking off our shoes at airports in Ireland and just about everywhere else.

i take me shoes off at the airport without a problem, cos some british shoe bomber or whatever ...


Irish people fought for Ireland without having to deal with drones from another state destroying us at will.

so the US is sending over drones to destroy Ireland? :confused:


Because of Israel's actions the whole middle east has been turned into a war zone. playing into the hands of worlds greatest military industrial complex. Just ask Eisenhower about that.


"because of Israel's actions the whole middle east has been turned into a war zone"

:)

ok listen, you could take Israel out of the ME and you would still have the same wars.

MauriceColgan
10-05-2015, 06:29 AM
i take me shoes off at the airport without a problem, cos some british shoe bomber or whatever ...

Why was he on the plane


so the US is sending over drones to destroy Ireland? :confused:

Are we speaking the same language?




"because of Israel's actions the whole middle east has been turned into a war zone"

:)

ok listen, you could take Israel out of the ME and you would still have the same wars.

Maybe, but they would not have had a very partisan super power so heavily involved for decades.

Anyway we are straying from the subject of this thread so we will just have to differ.

I must work on the multi quote. :-(

Apjp
10-05-2015, 11:50 AM
Ireland has good business and scientific links with Israel; and I think there are plenty of us that would dislike the whole Israeli Palestinian situation, but would be even less impressed with some of the Arab dictators.

Ireland being small, and the Irish being well travelled, what many do is to use a joint citizenship they're entitled to, use a UK or US passport to go to Israel, and use an Irish one to visit the Muslim parts of the ME. Many Arab nations won't let you in apparently, if you've an Israeli stamp on the passport [emoji6].

Sure the Irish can sympathise with the oppressed. It's just pretty clear to us that the Palestinians are more oppressed than the Israelis right now. However, if ISIS actually succeeded in doing Israel any damage, or if Iran developed nukes and used them (both v unlikely for many many reasons), the public POV here would do a volte face overnight.

Pure silliness.

Israel is the Oppressor in the case of what has always been known as Palestine. If Isis was so extremely anti Jewish why are they being treated in Israeli hospitals? They look like a western backed false flag group to me. At least they have received arms and funding before, so a blind eye being turned to their actions by Israel is just one of many things that stink in the middle east.

Apjp
10-05-2015, 11:54 AM
what do you mean by illegitimate?

you cause my heart to pounce as i read this line

pouncing!!

so, pls tell me what are the implications of your statement that Israel is an illegitimate state.

Illegitimate the same way the Congo Free State or the Orange State or any other Colonial state full of murdering forces protecting racist land grabbing colonists was.

Not very hard to say in the future there should be a new State between both sides that is completely different to what is called Israel today.

Call it the Palestinian and Jewish federation maybe, I don't care. But the current State has to go.

Apjp
10-05-2015, 12:01 PM
The Israeli ambassador should have been kicked out with handcuffs and an Airport escort if need be long ago over the theft of Irish passports for Mossad operations and attacks against Irish and European citizens on board the Gaza boats.

Not to mind the killing of thousands of people in Gaza every other year.

I would have similar views in regard to the Egyptian ambassador at this stage except one of our citizens is being held hostage in Jail there and facing a death sentence-we should really expel them but if we do you can be sure they will do something outrageous in response.

morticia
10-05-2015, 12:19 PM
On the same logic, given US backing, I SERIOUSLY doubt if chucking the Israeli ambassador out in chains would be consequence free either.

Pure and total silliness. Utterly unrealistic.

random new yorker
10-05-2015, 02:54 PM
an we let them talk darlin'...

hmm yea sounds really good to expel an ambassador in chains ...

looks like apjp would be willing to expel the israeli ambassador in chains but is afraid of doing the same to the egyptian

you fear for your throat?

as regards a possible Israel-Palestinian-Union i am all for a Federation of 2 or 3 states.

Apjp
11-05-2015, 04:00 PM
A really patronising and snide remark there RNY-no need for that. Nothing to do with the ISIS hysteria which has little to do with Egypt. Why would I be afraid of them any more than Israel or Egypt anyways?

Egypt are holding an Irish citizen hostage on death row. This mitigates our possible response to them in a way the Israeli situation cannot as although Israel is a terribly oppressive State, no Irish citizens are languishing in jail illegally atm(only Palistinians and political dissidents of course-not as bad as Egypt on jailing foreigners is hardly a cause for celebration!!!). If you have not heard of Ibrahim Halawa, well then, what can I say your knowledge of Irish foreign policy is about as advanced as my limited knowledge of Portuguese history. Not to worry, it's a learning curve.

Once upon a time Ireland was an Independent State. It was a backward half Theocratic shambles with a stand still economy for much of that time, but nonetheless in the 1960s, during its heyday, there existed manufacturing, local co-operatives, State industry and steady economic growth. The Foreign policy was a careful balance between good relations with Europe and Independence at the UN. I have read a good bit about Frank Aiken lately, who was a very conservative centre left Republican, which is a contradiction onto itself, but he did inculcate a desire for principled foreign policy and Independence of thought on World affairs in Ireland, not at all beholden to anyone else. This has largely been abandoned since the early nineties after having been slowly diluted over time. Frank Aiken was no small player internationally considering what kind of man he was and who he represented at that time and his Foreign Policy achievements would put all the modern day Technocrats in the EU to shame.

Otherwise I would happily see them gone and all. I've as little time for Juntas as I have for murderous and racist Colonial States. A polite Escorted first class service if Ibrahim were not being held hostage now. Etihad even if they like.

But to compromise Irish foreign policy completely over Palestine because it would upset America? Eh, no. The Israeli Ambassador has lied time and time again, excusing atrocity after atrocity and even contends 'we have the best and most Humane Army in the world'. He should be expelled until Israel lets Palestine open up.

America's feathers will be ruffled, but so what? Anybody who runs a country on that basis shouldn't be doing so. The likes of Éamon Gilmore and Charlie Flanagan should be working for think tanks in Washington if they are that concerned about 'securing western interests' and 'upsetting our partners', not directing the Irish Republic's international policies. They should politely be asked not to use Irish Airspace for Military operations while we're at it. A nice little Garda inspection or two in Shannon would soften their cough and would be deeply embarrassing for a US Govt. that claims those hundreds of planes every year are purely empty and just transporting 'aid' and the likes.

There's a real laziness and lack of principle to Irish foreign policy this years. Our economy is more tied to Britain anyways and I really doubt America will be that bothered over 1 or 2 decisions which are the Irish State's right anyways-they even offered not to use Shannon in the past after some protests but were surprised at the insistence of various Irish Ministers that they should do so.

It's about demanding respect too. Roll over on every partisan issue of foreign policy facing us and of course you will get screwed royally, pardon the puns.

Apjp
11-05-2015, 04:16 PM
On the same logic, given US backing, I SERIOUSLY doubt if chucking the Israeli ambassador out in chains would be consequence free either.

Pure and total silliness. Utterly unrealistic.

Not at all.

The British economy is the one we are tied to. In any case America had offered before to withdraw from Shannon and the Israeli thing is a matter for us.

Doesn't have to be this way. We can simply request him to leave. Only if he and his Embassy refuse to do so should they be deported.

Have you ever hard this guy talk? He's pure nuts. His Embassy posts a lot of hateful abuse of others online too-hardly fitting for a supposed diplomatic arm of government.

random new yorker
11-05-2015, 04:34 PM
A really patronising and snide remark there RNY-no need for that. Nothing to do with the ISIS hysteria which has little to do with Egypt. Why would I be afraid of them any more than Israel or Egypt anyways?

sorry

i am not always nice ya know...

check the ISIS thread it is quite possible they have lost their head so you won't have to lose yours



Egypt are holding an Irish citizen hostage on death row. This mitigates our possible response to them in a way the Israeli situation cannot as although Israel is a terribly oppressive State, no Irish citizens are languishing in jail illegally atm(only Palistinians and political dissidents of course-not as bad as Egypt on jailing foreigners is hardly a cause for celebration!!!). If you have not heard of Ibrahim Halawa, well then, what can I say your knowledge of Irish foreign policy is about as advanced as my limited knowledge of Portuguese history. Not to worry, it's a learning curve.

your irish citizen held by egypt is of very little relevance to world affairs

what are the charges?



But to compromise Irish foreign policy completely over Palestine because it would upset America? Eh, no. The Israeli Ambassador has lied time and time again, excusing atrocity after atrocity and even contends 'we have the best and most Humane Army in the world'. He should be expelled until Israel lets Palestine open up.

kicking out ambassadors in shackles.. honestly :rolleyes: is this some form of irish diplomacy eh??

pluralist
13-12-2015, 03:26 AM
If you believe the internet, I was Israel’s answer to Jason Bourne
How an olive-green shirt from Topman convinced Twitter I must have belonged to the Israel Defense Forces
Hugo Rifkind

http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/12/if-you-believe-the-internet-i-was-israels-answer-to-jason-bourne/

random new yorker
14-12-2015, 04:23 AM
^^^ I wanted to say your new sig quote is very good. Make it visible to everyone. RNY.

random new yorker
14-12-2015, 04:48 AM
WoW ..just went back and re-read this thread

what an amazing trip!