Bankers go after Parents

[Lifeisagame]

Banks target parent guarantors on debts
http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/banks-target-parent-guarantors-on-debts-2174949.html

Legally they are entitled to do this, morally it is appalling.
The Government has just screwed us to Bail out their Cronies in Banking and Developers.
Now that same piece of human waste Cowen, is going to sit back and let His Cronies in Banks screw the people again.
I wonder how long it will take to bring a Parent Guarantor to Court in comparison to a Corrupt Banker?
WHEN WILL THE IRISH STAND UP????????

[Sidewinder]

Wah wah wah, where's my bailout?

If they weren't so desperate to impress the neighbours by making sure their precious little darlings were all well established on The Ladder - imagine the shame of having grown children who were renting :eek: - then they never would have gone guarantor on a €400K cardboard shoebox in Westmeath in the first place.

Parents are supposed to guide their children away from headslappingly stupid decisions, not go guarantor to encourage them.

Society is about to learn a few harsh lesson........or should at least, instead all these muppets will probably get bailed out at the expense of the prudent, no lessons will be learned, and the same auld nonsense will start all over again in a few years.

[Lifeisagame]

Is it your intention to stalk me now in some weird way to try and dis-credit me?

[C. Flower]

Wah wah wah, where's my bailout?

If they weren't so desperate to impress the neighbours by making sure their precious little darlings were all well established on The Ladder - imagine the shame of having grown children who were renting :eek: - then they never would have gone guarantor on a €400K cardboard shoebox in Westmeath in the first place.

Parents are supposed to guide their children away from headslappingly stupid decisions, not go guarantor to encourage them.

Society is about to learn a few harsh lesson........or should at least, instead all these muppets will probably get bailed out at the expense of the prudent, no lessons will be learned, and the same auld nonsense will start all over again in a few years.

What and who is the "society" who is about to learn ? I don't see that struggling for life on the breadline and, for some, homelessness, would be a learning experience.

What might be a learning experience would be to make the best default deal we can as a state and collectively on our debts and use the housing stock we have as well and productively as possible. Just a suggestion.

[Sidewinder]

Is it your intention to stalk me now in some weird way to try and dis-credit me?

:rolleyes: Wise up. It's a thread about the aftermath of the housing bubble, of course I'm going to comment on it FFS, it's possibly the one topic I'm most associated with. Get a life man.

[Sidewinder]

What and who is the "society" who is about to learn ? I don't see that struggling for life on the breadline and, for some, homelessness, would be a learning experience.

It'll teach them not to get into 40-year crazy debts that they can never repay for a lump of plasterboard in a bog, won't it? I'm still not seeing much appreciation in the minds of ordinary people that the bubble was wrong and hugely damaging financially and socially.

Everybody wants the "good times" back and house prices soaring high again. It's mental. High house prices are BAD for an economy, hpw feckin difficult is this to understand?


What might be a learning experience would be to make the best default deal we can as a state and collectively on our debts and use the housing stock we have as well and productively as possible. Just a suggestion.

But that would require not enslaving the next 4 generations to a couple of hundred billion in debt in order to bail out the connected and wealthy. That would require having a political class that actually care about the lives of the people. That would require a culture where maximising the welfare of the entire community with the resources available was seen as a noble end, not as laughable crazy talk.

I'd be happy enough with managed default (I think it's possibly inevitable anyway, there's no way we can repay all this debt) as long as the profligate have to suffer some pain for their stupidity and recklessness and as long as everyone learns that loading up on debt to buy bling is pretty stupid behaviour.

Unfortunately I don't think people are there yet and if we let them default now, 90% of them will just run out and rack up new debts to buy bling, safe in the knowledge that some sucker will carry the can. Ye Olde Moral Hazard is far too great without a determined and forceful education process for the debtmonkeys.

[Lifeisagame]

:rolleyes: Wise up. It's a thread about the aftermath of the housing bubble, of course I'm going to comment on it FFS, it's possibly the one topic I'm most associated with. Get a life man.
In fact it is a Thread about the inequality of the system based on Corruption at the Highest level and the Legislative inequality on the different classes of society.
Check the Courts for the number of Ordinary People who have been dragged through a most harrowing experience of losing their homes versus the Bankers and Developers, now publicaly known to have been corrupt and no action taken because they are protected by their Cronie Politicians.
It has been stated that some may go to Court "Maybe Next Year"

[BrendanGalway]

Society is about to learn a few harsh lesson........or should at least, instead all these muppets will probably get bailed out at the expense of the prudent, no lessons will be learned, and the same auld nonsense will start all over again in a few years.

The thing is you could equally apply your statement above to the Banks themselves as much as any Borrower. this is what Grates with People. We are selling ourselves into financial slavery, Our nation will regress for a Decade or more just to pay for the Greed of the Financial Sector. And then the Banks decide to begin chasing down everyone they can for yet more money. So much for Gratitude. Perhaps some people in their Naivety assumed that the Banks would go easy on People in trouble since its those same people who are picking up the Tab for the last few years.

The Harsh lesson Society is learning right now is that the Rich and Powerful still call the shots. That our notions of Democracy and Fairness have failed this test badly. That we are still a 17th Century Feudal Land with a veneer of 21st Century Technology.

[electionlit]

Were the banks not also promoting the use of the equity built up on the parents homes to guarantee the homes bought by children.
So there may be cases where the parents house is in trouble too.

It is rotten, but its got to such a mess as to who pays what. Who is allowed renege on their debts and who are not.
Needless to say we wont see too many of the top builders and developers out on their ear, but we will see the little guy have their homes repossessed.

By bailing out the banks and inventing NAMA they have made a rod for their own back in that an awful lot of people feel that they should be bailed out also.

Yet as one who bought a house, didn't take the extra money offered by the bank, didn't buy the new SUV, didn't buy the flatscreens , didn't buy a few properties or holiday home in Bulgaria etc. In other words was sensible and lived within my means its hard to see where to draw the line on bailouts.
(btw I would have let the banks go bust too)

[Sidewinder]

The thing is you could equally apply your statement above to the Banks themselves as much as any Borrower.

Well I called the Irish banks as insolvent and said they should all be wound up, the payments clearing system nationalised, and the performing accounts and loans sold off to new/foreign banks 2 years ago before the Guarantee so...

The Irish banks are rotten, they've been implicated in scandal after scandal for 20 years, they are up to their necks in processing brown envelopes for politicians, facilitating tax evasion for the wealthy, the culture stinks, they are obsessed with property and have no understanding of real commercial lending, there's no way ordinary citizens should be asked to take on debt, public spending cuts and tax increases in order to bail out corrupt morons.

Like everything else, the Irish banks are yet another failed and corrupt institution in a failed and corrupt State.

[C. Flower]

It'll teach them not to get into 40-year crazy debts that they can never repay for a lump of plasterboard in a bog, won't it? I'm still not seeing much appreciation in the minds of ordinary people that the bubble was wrong and hugely damaging financially and socially.

Everybody wants the "good times" back and house prices soaring high again. It's mental. High house prices are BAD for an economy, hpw feckin difficult is this to understand?



Originally Posted by C Flower http://www.politicalworld.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=25823#post25823)
What might be a learning experience would be to make the best default deal we can as a state and collectively on our debts and use the housing stock we have as well and productively as possible. Just a suggestion.


But that would require not enslaving the next 4 generations to a couple of hundred billion in debt in order to bail out the connected and wealthy. That would require having a political class that actually care about the lives of the people. That would require a culture where maximising the welfare of the entire community with the resources available was seen as a noble end, not as laughable crazy talk.

I'd be happy enough with managed default (I think it's possibly inevitable anyway, there's no way we can repay all this debt) as long as the profligate have to suffer some pain for their stupidity and recklessness and as long as everyone learns that loading up on debt to buy bling is pretty stupid behaviour.

Unfortunately I don't think people are there yet and if we let them default now, 90% of them will just run out and rack up new debts to buy bling, safe in the knowledge that some sucker will carry the can. Ye Olde Moral Hazard is far too great without a determined and forceful education process for the debtmonkeys.

People can't be taught about moral hazard when the wealthy are making money out of squeezing the rest of us. They've passed their hazard over to us.

People aren't foolish. The vast majority of us know we're going to need to live very modestly. It's fairness and equity, and basic protection from poverty and homelessness, that most people want.

[Lifeisagame]

Does anyone have the figure of how much per house/apartment that has been used on the the bail out thus far?
I know there is a figure per citizen, but cannot remember that.

The reason for my question is, how much per house was given versus how much per house was outstanding when it was reposessed. I believe it would be an interesting comparison.

[just_society]

I know at least one bloke who was happy to continue renting an apartment that I was sharing with him. Yet in 2004 his parents persuaded him to buy a house in the suburbs, I'm reasonably sure they put a good bit of cash in and may well have 'gone guarantor' or some such. A year later he'd moved out of the house and away from the city (not sure if he sold or not), but buying the house wasn't the right decision for him either way, and his parents were a huge influence on him. My brother and I stayed renting, and our family who endured a helluva lot of debt in the '80's, avoided this debt crisis completely (Well, apart from paying for other peoples mistakes through taxes).

Frankly, I don't have any difficulty with banks calling in guarantees like this. It's how the system is supposed to work. Another relevant point is that in some cases the parents generation may well have made quite a few quid out of the boom, and are in a better position to help out than the son/daughter who may well be struggling with much higher costs and expenses than the parents.

[MediaBite]

Suspect the day is not too far off when people will be legally obliged to borrow money at rates they cannot afford and spend rest of lives servicing the debt. People who bought houses during last decade already there. But anyone hereafter who sensibly realises that property ownership is a mug's game will not be allowed to get away with avoiding it. Watch this space. Stay out of debt! Never borrow money for any reason whatsoever!

[just_society]

I don't like the fact that I have to bail out a bank that advanced loans to those unable or unwilling to pay it back. I haven't and hopefully won't ever take a loan out that I am unable to pay back.

If all borrowers (or even enough of them) had that attitude, we wouldn't be in this mess.

[charley]

the only upshot of this is a lot of the older generation will have little qualms in putting a few .22 bullets in a few bank bailiffs .when they reach their age a life sentence isn't that long

[Lifeisagame]

Does anyone have the figure of how much per house/apartment that has been used on the the bail out thus far?
I know there is a figure per citizen, but cannot remember that.

The reason for my question is, how much per house was given versus how much per house was outstanding when it was reposessed. I believe it would be an interesting comparison.
Anybody have any idea of these figures.I would be interested to know them.

[C. Flower]

Anybody have any idea of these figures.I would be interested to know them.

NAMA has parcelled up raw land, sites, half finished developments, commercial and residential, and taken them in at a valuation made last November, minus the haircut. It reminds me of the derivatives that caused so much trouble. Each development I assume was separately valued, so there is no meaningful "amount per unit".

[Lifeisagame]

NAMA has parcelled up raw land, sites, half finished developments, commercial and residential, and taken them in at a valuation made last November, minus the haircut. It reminds me of the derivatives that caused so much trouble. Each development I assume was separately valued, so there is no meaningful "amount per unit".
So basically we could be taking homes in reposession from people whose contribution to NAMA was greater than the value of their Mortgage?
Is this Democracy?

[C. Flower]

So basically we could be taking homes in reposession from people whose contribution to NAMA was greater than the value of their Mortgage?
Is this Democracy?

NAMA doesn't have any connection with reposessions of people's homes. It solely deals with land and development owned by big developers - nothing under 5 million.

Ah - I'm getting your question. By the time that NAMA is resolved, how much will it have cost each tax payer ? No one knows the answer to that, but I'd say if you did a search you'd find plenty of guesses.

[Lifeisagame]

NAMA doesn't have any connection with reposessions of people's homes. It solely deals with land and development owned by big developers - nothing under 5 million.

Ah - I'm getting your question. By the time that NAMA is resolved, how much will it have cost each tax payer ? No one knows the answer to that, but I'd say if you did a search you'd find plenty of guesses.
To the finance or the devastation of homes that were completed, occupied and now facing massive health issues with no one interested in helping them?

[Kid Ryder]

So basically we could be taking homes in reposession from people whose contribution to NAMA was greater than the value of their Mortgage?
Is this Democracy?

This 'we' business is fundamentally misleading. It's the Irish state through its 'Mickey Mouse nationalised' banking arm that is repossessing these people's houses. The Irish state has long been a wholly-owned subsidiary of Oireland Inc. Before that, it was the brutal enforcement arm of Holy Catholic Ireland. The latter entity was spawned from the former sometime around 1981 or 1982.

[Lifeisagame]

This 'we' business is fundamentally misleading. It's the Irish state through its 'Mickey Mouse nationalised' banking arm that is repossessing these people's houses. The Irish state has long been a wholly-owned subsidiary of Oireland Inc. Before that, it was the brutal enforcement arm of Holy Catholic Ireland. The latter entity was spawned from the former sometime around 1981 or 1982.
If that is the only issue you have with the Post I will offer my humblest apologies:confused:

[Sidewinder]

Ah - I'm getting your question. By the time that NAMA is resolved, how much will it have cost each tax payer ? No one knows the answer to that, but I'd say if you did a search you'd find plenty of guesses.

Total cost of NAMA and bank recapitalisations will be somewhere around €60bn I'd say, or about €14K per person, or about €25.5K per taxpayer. Could conceivably be as high as €80bn, so add another third to them for a worse-case figure.

[Lifeisagame]

Total cost of NAMA and bank recapitalisations will be somewhere around €60bn I'd say, or about €14K per person, or about €25.5K per taxpayer. Could conceivably be as high as €80bn, so add another third to them for a worse-case figure.
So therefore, the arrears of the home owner that has been dumped into the street has already been paid by them and other home owners. So the unfortunites who have lost employment get a double whammy.