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fluffybiscuits
25-04-2014, 02:42 PM
Labours downward spiral could lay in its embracement of freemarket economics in the 1980's via their Democratic left members. Proinsias De Rossa thought the Workers Parties marxist views hampered its views electorally and saw neo liberal economics as their saving grace . Sean Garland aside, the cabal of ex lefties turned into a new group , the Democratic Left. This consisted of six TDs including Eamonn Gilmore and Pat Rabbitte. At their founding conference they were


democratic socialist party. We believe that the idea of socialism coupled with the practice of democracy provides the basis for the radical transformation of Irish society. We aim to be a feminist party. An environmental party. A party of the unemployed and low-paid. A champion of personal freedom. A friend and ally of the third world. An integral part of the European Left

Soon after 1997 the Democratic left merged with Labour and this inevitably laid the path to the downfall. Liz Mc Manus and Pat Rabbitte became deputy leader and leader respectively and then later on Eamonn Gilmore. Gilmore at this point liked to paint himself as a man of the people, a person of the working classes and anti bourgoise.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_ZKepX8VopRQ/Sj5kXnBTOpI/AAAAAAAAANs/BsA8xNn3ROA/s1600/dl1.jpg



In a manifesto published in 1992, there are hints of a lean towards neo liberal reforms in places like energy .
http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/dl/Democratic%20Left%20GE%201992.pdf


An Energy Tax, geared to encouraging conservation
and creating extra jobs, could also belp raise additional monies
while achieving desirable social and environmental objectives.

Other things though are more noticeable on terms of housing . Pyrite remedial works and houses built to substandard levels still pop up from time to time. Back in 1992 DL was proposing a redress scheme for those whose buildngs were found to be in a state of disrepair because of substandard works.


Full defects protection legislation is needed for
both owner-occupiers and tenant purcbasers against longer-term
design and construction defects on bebalf of the developer and
local authority. There must be legislation to ensure that bouse
and flat construction is of the bighest standard aod that it
complies with international standards with regard to materials
and safety

The rest of the document reads like a normal socially liberal document one would expect. Increasing corporation tax and better representation for women and fighting the then decriminalisaton of homosexuality which was to eventually come about. When did the DL members in Labour eventually become fully neo liberalists?

While in opposition they were quick to snap at the heals of the government on its policies. Liz Mc Manus has written at length on her blog about the problems in our health system (she has since retired) and this document is a far cry from the current policies of the governemnt where those very same DL members are invovled in cuts to those in the working class. I cant put my finger on it. Is it Labour are now selling their arse to FG for a few scraps from the table of political power and go along with whatever ruse that Hoga,Shatter or Reilly pull out of their arse? There was a pamphlet written around the time of the WP/SL split that predicted the downfall of the Labour party when they 'absorbed' DL .

I apologise if post is slightly disjointed but its an issue worth discussing,chartering the downfall of Labour needs to look at when the DL Quislings sold themselves out....

Richardbouvet
25-04-2014, 03:48 PM
I was living in the UK when the WP-DL split happened, but as soon as I heard about the formation of DL, red flags (of the wrong kind) went up in my head.

The early 90s was a time when fair-weather Marxists were abandoning the cause in droves, and embracing concocted liberal-leftish positions as a substitute for socialist conviction. DL, like Britain's "Marxism today" were unmistakable examples of this trend.

fluffybiscuits
25-04-2014, 03:55 PM
I was living in the UK when the WP-DL split happened, but as soon as I heard about the formation of DL, red flags (of the wrong kind) went up in my head.

The early 90s was a time when fair-weather Marxists were abandoning the cause in droves, and embracing concocted liberal-leftish positions as a substitute for socialist conviction. DL, like Britain's "Marxism today" were unmistakable examples of this trend.

As in those of a centre left variety? Wishy washy marxists ? (does such a thing exist??) ;)

Ceannaire
25-04-2014, 03:59 PM
Wishy washy marxists ? (does such a thing exist??)

You should know.

fluffybiscuits
25-04-2014, 04:03 PM
You should know.

Was your decision to come out (in a discussion) against any potential legalisation of prostitution which would extend autonomy to a woman to make descisions not paint you into the same corner then?


Someone give Ceannaire a saucer of milk.....

Donal Og
25-04-2014, 04:31 PM
Energy tax is 'neo liberal' ? :D

fluffybiscuits
25-04-2014, 04:41 PM
Energy tax is 'neo liberal' ? :D

Its a neoliberal solution to climate change...thats my take on it !

Saoirse go Deo
25-04-2014, 04:42 PM
I got a laugh out of this during the week


The Labour Party is recommending its canvassers to tell voters during the local and European election campaigns that Sinn Féin is aligned to “marginal extremists in the European Parliament, some of whom wish the Berlin Wall had never come down”.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/labour-tells-canvassers-to-target-sinn-féin-1.1770507

Don't mention Gilmore and the Workers Party
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-34111045.html

fluffybiscuits
25-04-2014, 04:47 PM
I got a laugh out of this during the week


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/labour-tells-canvassers-to-target-sinn-féin-1.1770507

Don't mention Gilmore and the Workers Party
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-34111045.html

Conveniently forgetting their history

This is hilarious stuff

https://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/dlwater2a.jpg

Ceannaire
25-04-2014, 04:48 PM
Was your decision to come out (in a discussion) against any potential legalisation of prostitution which would extend autonomy to a woman to make descisions not paint you into the same corner then?


Someone give Ceannaire a saucer of milk.....


Bearing in mind Marx was completely opposed to prostitution, eh, no.

fluffybiscuits
25-04-2014, 04:55 PM
Bearing in mind Marx was completely opposed to prostitution, eh, no.

Its more of a contradiction. In a white male dominated society women suffer from class prejudices, reduced to mere incubators and yes in Marxist terms commodities. Marx saw prostitution as being eradicated when capitalism ended but he was also of the opinion women should hvae as much choice over their bodies as any others. This leads me on to my point quite nicely, do we just ban it completely or let women choose?

PS We should really ressurect that thread on prostitution to discuss this rather than using this thread to distract away from the point. I'll leave the milk in the fridge for your saucer this time ;)

disability student
25-04-2014, 05:04 PM
The more you talk about Labour as it will keep them in the news -Ryanair style of PR.

The less you talk about them as they will disappear or fade into oblivion just like the Greens did in last election.

Dr. FIVE
25-04-2014, 05:50 PM
The Sickies-destroyed-the-Labour-Party meme is given far too much credit, they are will capable on their own. Burton and Howlin will be remembered for the outsourcing/privatisation of public services, continuing the march from citizens with threadbare rights to 'consumers' of what is left of those services, villification of the young, unemployed and 'lifestyle choices', garda check points for jobseekers, FOI betrayal on, on and on nevermind the ***** out of Ruairi Quinn this week. When you have Union bosses knifing their own members in public you can hardly blame Labour ministers. Who needs Gilmore and Rabbitte? Though Lynch's dáil defence of stroke Reilly and Sherlock's EMI arse licking kept them in the running.

Spring, AIB director and in bed with Denis, Dermont, Flannery and the rest in 'Ireland First'. Halligan and the tobacco industry. They decided to claim the mother and child scheme for themselves at last year's conference. Shameless *******

Shaadi
25-04-2014, 09:27 PM
The Sickies-destroyed-the-Labour-Party meme is given far too much credit, they are will capable on their own. Burton and Howlin will be remembered for the outsourcing/privatisation of public services, continuing the march from citizens with threadbare rights to 'consumers' of what is left of those services, villification of the young, unemployed and 'lifestyle choices', garda check points for jobseekers, FOI betrayal on, on and on nevermind the ***** out of Ruairi Quinn this week. When you have Union bosses knifing their own members in public you can hardly blame Labour ministers. Who needs Gilmore and Rabbitte? Though Lynch's dáil defence of stroke Reilly and Sherlock's EMI arse licking kept them in the running.

Spring, AIB director and in bed with Denis, Dermont, Flannery and the rest in 'Ireland First'. Halligan and the tobacco industry. They decided to claim the mother and child scheme for themselves at last year's conference. Shameless *******Indeed, not too many champions of the Irish Proletariat in Labour that I can ever remember.

A sort of Trade Union Social Democrat wing of FG, but at least the old Labourites like Quinn and Burton and Spring etc have or had some form of passion about their Ministries. Gilmore and Rabbite and Lynch etc seem to be happy to just coast and coast as effortlessly as possible through their careers.

It's quite extraordinary, the former "marxists" now in power have literally no ambition at all to do anything other than a bit of tinkering with social policy and a lot of partying on the peoples backs.


They have been exposed by the perfect storm that the Irish economic crisis is. They are essentially FG and that's not what the electorate want off them, so goodbye Labour.

It could have been so different, if only they'd had the ambition to stay out of Govt in 2011.

They'd be looking forward to the Local and European elections, looking at having their best ever election results again and Gilmore for Taoiseach wouldn't be a joke.

They're always whinging that they're minor partners in Govt and so have little power. Well after winning 37 seats in 2011, the magic figure of 40 + seats in 2016 and Senior coalition party status were finally just sitting right there in plain view, just waiting to be taken..

But Labour never had any real ambition to work for senior party status.

eamo
25-04-2014, 10:35 PM
Labours downward spiral could lay in its embracement of freemarket economics in the 1980's via their Democratic left members. Proinsias De Rossa thought the Workers Parties marxist views hampered its views electorally and saw neo liberal economics as their saving grace . Sean Garland aside, the cabal of ex lefties turned into a new group , the Democratic Left. This consisted of six TDs including Eamonn Gilmore and Pat Rabbitte. At their founding conference they were


I don't take issue with what you say fluffy, just want to point out that Tomás Mac Giolla was the the TD who stayed with the Worker's Party. He was an extraordinary man. His courage his character and his incorruptible integrity frightened the schemers deceivers and plotters to such an extent that they kept their plans secret from him until they thought they had him cornered.
The lot of them weren't worth one like him.
They did their best to destroy the Worker's Party and they, with help from leading lights in old Labour are on the verge of destroying the Labour Party.
I think it is clear whose side they are on.


I am a supporter of the WP but no longer a member, just to be clear.

Some links about Tomás:

http://www.workerspartyireland.net/id692.html




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IIeJppULHE

Sidewinder
26-04-2014, 05:24 AM
The problem with the Irish "left" is that hardly any of them are "left" in any meaningful sense at all and in fact are usually very reactionary right-wing authoritarian and pro-imperialist. It's just slightly more obvious with the Stickies but the SP and SWP are also both reactionary and imperialist with both actually having a policy of Ireland rejoining the UK. Sure, sure, it's phrased as a voluntary association of equal partners in a socialist federation but that's just ******** frankly.

The "Labour" party have been reactionary right-wingers since the 1960s at least and were actually the most enthusiastically authoritarian members of the quasi-fascist Cosgrave government in the 70s.

C. Flower
26-04-2014, 05:56 AM
The problem with the Irish "left" is that hardly any of them are "left" in any meaningful sense at all and in fact are usually very reactionary right-wing authoritarian and pro-imperialist. It's just slightly more obvious with the Stickies but the SP and SWP are also both reactionary and imperialist with both actually having a policy of Ireland rejoining the UK. Sure, sure, it's phrased as a voluntary association of equal partners in a socialist federation but that's just ******** frankly.

The "Labour" party have been reactionary right-wingers since the 1960s at least and were actually the most enthusiastically authoritarian members of the quasi-fascist Cosgrave government in the 70s.

Yes. Ireland is not the bedrock of working class organisation. But it still shook the world once, in 1916,and should not be written off.

Richardbouvet
26-04-2014, 10:43 AM
What is ******** about a socialist federation? Is it necessary, in order to be part of the left, to believe that the ***** must be outbred by the priest-ridden taigs so that we can have a 32-county Albania?

Ceannaire
26-04-2014, 11:48 AM
I am a supporter of the WP but no longer a member, just to be clear.



Why not?

Richardbouvet
26-04-2014, 12:00 PM
"in order to be part of the left, to believe that the ***** must be outbred by the priest-ridden taigs so that we can have a 32-county Albania?"

So persons of the Reformed persuasion are represented on this board by asterisks, while those of the Roman persuasion are not?

Garibaldy
26-04-2014, 12:37 PM
The problem with the Irish "left" is that hardly any of them are "left" in any meaningful sense at all and in fact are usually very reactionary right-wing authoritarian and pro-imperialist.

Comments like this serve as a valuable reminder of how tangential to reality a good number of commenters here are.

As for the Irish Labour Party, it's been pretty much consistently among the most right-wing, if not the most right-wing, social democratic parties in Europe for the overwhelming majority of its existence.

Shaadi
26-04-2014, 01:00 PM
"in order to be part of the left, to believe that the ***** must be outbred by the priest-ridden taigs so that we can have a 32-county Albania?"

So persons of the Reformed persuasion are represented on this board by asterisks, while those of the Roman persuasion are not?Tee hee. Priest-ridden taigs and persons of the reformed persuasion, let it out Richard, let it out, the dripping racism of an inherited resentment..:)

Richardbouvet
26-04-2014, 01:38 PM
Shaadi, I have reported your post. I have no inherited resentment and I am not racist. I used both the words taig and proddy. One was made into asterisks and one was not.

A retraction would be in order.

Shaadi
26-04-2014, 01:59 PM
Shaadi, I have reported your post. I have no inherited resentment and I am not racist. I used both the words taig and proddy. One was made into asterisks and one was not.

A retraction would be in order.Get up the yard, we all have our little prejudices and the use of "priest ridden taigs" in your post indicates where yours are at..

C. Flower
26-04-2014, 02:20 PM
I apologies on behalf of the forum software for the unequal and sectarian occurrence of asterisks.

Shaadi - I'm assuming that Richard Bouvet's post is ironic in its use of those terms.

Richardbouvet
26-04-2014, 02:21 PM
Thanks PW. You are correct.

Shaadi
26-04-2014, 02:30 PM
I apologies on behalf of the forum software for the unequal and sectarian occurrence of asterisks.

Shaadi - I'm assuming that Richard Bouvet's post is ironic in its use of those terms.Richard's not a bad old skin, and I shouldn't have been so sharp with him.

There's however an ocean of difference between the use of "priest-ridden taigs" and P-rods.

Richardbouvet
26-04-2014, 03:38 PM
OK, taigs aren't so priest-ridden nowadays.

Sidewinder
27-04-2014, 08:25 AM
I think Richard's little outburst demonstrates exactly what I mean about the "voluntary socialist federation" being complete nonsense and just a threadbare cloak for naked anti-Irish imperialist sentiments. I've been having this debate with SWP/SP people for 25 years and it always ends up the same way with the same sentiments being exposed.

In my book anyone running around insisting that small countries have no right to self-determination, are inherently incapable of managing their own affairs, and need to be controlled and guided by a suitable Master Race to save them from the inevitable outcome of ending up a sorry bunch of "priest-ridden taigs in a 32-county Albania" - that person is a racist imperialist plain and simple and is only pretending at being left wing.

Binn Beal
27-04-2014, 08:45 AM
Priests would ride anything.

jmcc
27-04-2014, 10:04 AM
Turns out that Brian Hayes was once a member of Democratic Left. Guess it has spread to FG too. :)

Regards...jmcc

Binn Beal
27-04-2014, 12:42 PM
Maybe it's a plot and they are just pretending to be smarmy, self-serving, right-wing turn-coats and one day they'll rise up and overthrow the dining-room of the Shelbourne, Rolys and Guilbauds on behalf of the proletariat.

eamo
27-04-2014, 09:46 PM
Why not?

No big political differences Ceannaire, well maybe I see both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict where as they along with most of the left see it in very black and white terms. The big problem is time and trying to make a living out of running a taxi. This ain't a "poor me" post (I really like taxi driving) but I have had just one day not doing taxi work since Christmas, and morning and evenings are the time to make a few bob, and evenings in particular is the time for organising meetings. So that is why I am now (mostly) a Keyboard (class) Warrior :D

disability student
28-04-2014, 03:33 PM
The Sickies-destroyed-the-Labour-Party meme is given far too much credit, they are will capable on their own. Burton and Howlin will be remembered for the outsourcing/privatisation of public services, continuing the march from citizens with threadbare rights to 'consumers' of what is left of those services, villification of the young, unemployed and 'lifestyle choices', garda check points for jobseekers, FOI betrayal on, on and on nevermind the ***** out of Ruairi Quinn this week. When you have Union bosses knifing their own members in public you can hardly blame Labour ministers. Who needs Gilmore and Rabbitte? Though Lynch's dáil defence of stroke Reilly and Sherlock's EMI arse licking kept them in the running.



Spring, AIB director and in bed with Denis, Dermont, Flannery and the rest in 'Ireland First'. Halligan and the tobacco industry. They decided to claim the mother and child scheme for themselves at last year's conference. Shameless *******

You have a point there as I should have said raised or mention bad points about labour that would keep them in the news not the other way round.

Also labour contacts and associations with trade unions destroyed unions as they did with WP or DL in the past.

In another words, these leaders such as Gimmemore or Quinn or Rabbitte will decimate any political party that they join. Had an inkling feeling that gimme more would join the ranks of FG after GE.:)

fluffybiscuits
28-04-2014, 03:52 PM
I don't take issue with what you say fluffy, just want to point out that Tomás Mac Giolla was the the TD who stayed with the Worker's Party. He was an extraordinary man. His courage his character and his incorruptible integrity frightened the schemers deceivers and plotters to such an extent that they kept their plans secret from him until they thought they had him cornered.
The lot of them weren't worth one like him.
They did their best to destroy the Worker's Party and they, with help from leading lights in old Labour are on the verge of destroying the Labour Party.
I think it is clear whose side they are on.


I am a supporter of the WP but no longer a member, just to be clear.

Some links about Tomás:

http://www.workerspartyireland.net/id692.html




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IIeJppULHE

Will have a look at the video tonight, thanks Eamo for the input, that was a side I missed completely! The DL were obviously intimidated by him and I said before WP saw the downfall of the Labour party (I must see if I can get a copy of that leaflet!)


The problem with the Irish "left" is that hardly any of them are "left" in any meaningful sense at all and in fact are usually very reactionary right-wing authoritarian and pro-imperialist. It's just slightly more obvious with the Stickies but the SP and SWP are also both reactionary and imperialist with both actually having a policy of Ireland rejoining the UK. Sure, sure, it's phrased as a voluntary association of equal partners in a socialist federation but that's just ******** frankly.

The "Labour" party have been reactionary right-wingers since the 1960s at least and were actually the most enthusiastically authoritarian members of the quasi-fascist Cosgrave government in the 70s.

Nationalist emancipation comes with the downfall of the capitalists in charge. I think there is a thread on here that goes into the ins and outs of why Unionists are the capitalist overlords, they represent the capital and the Nationalists the labour. This post is divorced from reality, quite surprising considering you are normally so lucid. SWP/SP/Left in general have an excellent analysis of imperalism and its approach just happens to be different from that of SF and other parties.


Comments like this serve as a valuable reminder of how tangential to reality a good number of commenters here are.

As for the Irish Labour Party, it's been pretty much consistently among the most right-wing, if not the most right-wing, social democratic parties in Europe for the overwhelming majority of its existence.


+1


I think Richard's little outburst demonstrates exactly what I mean about the "voluntary socialist federation" being complete nonsense and just a threadbare cloak for naked anti-Irish imperialist sentiments. I've been having this debate with SWP/SP people for 25 years and it always ends up the same way with the same sentiments being exposed.

In my book anyone running around insisting that small countries have no right to self-determination, are inherently incapable of managing their own affairs, and need to be controlled and guided by a suitable Master Race to save them from the inevitable outcome of ending up a sorry bunch of "priest-ridden taigs in a 32-county Albania" - that person is a racist imperialist plain and simple and is only pretending at being left wing.

His post was satirical I reckon but all that aside are you suggesting an isolationist policy ?


Priests would ride anything.

lol


You have a point there as I should have said raised or mention bad points about labour that would keep them in the news not the other way round.

Also labour contacts and associations with trade unions destroyed unions as they did with WP or DL in the past.

In another words, these leaders such as Gimmemore or Quinn or Rabbitte will decimate any political party that they join. Had an inkling feeling that gimme more would join the ranks of FG after GE.:)


They are like a virus, they keep on spreading. Gimmemore and Rabbitte in particular...

Pearse Monnet
28-04-2014, 09:37 PM
It would be interesting to see sales figures for Kevin Rafter’s "Democratic Left: The Life and Death of an Irish Political Party" (2011).

For the life of me I can't imagine what inspired him to take on the project. Talk about dull.

A story about failure and capitulation.

Students of socialism should familiarise themselves with the history of socialism in Ireland. There are plenty of books that make for interesting reading.
Below is a (limited) list arranged chronologically

- “A Labour History of Ireland 1824-2000”; Emmet O’Connor, UCD Press, 2011
- “The Origins of Modern Irish Socialism, 1881-1896”; Fintan Lane, Cork: Cork University Press, 1997
article by Fintan Lane entitled “The Emergence Of Modern Irish Socialism 1885-87” (http://www.wsm.ie/c/emergence-modern-irish-socialism-1885-87/)
- “Radical Politics in Modern Ireland: A History of the Irish Socialist Republican Party 1896-1904”; David Lynch, Dublin: Irish Academic Press, 2005
- “Irish Socialist Republicanism, 1909-1936”; Adrian Grant Four Courts Press, 2012
- “The Congested Districts Boards of Ireland, 1891–1923: poverty and development in the west of Ireland”; Colm Breathnach, 2005
- “Locked Out - A Century of Irish Working-class Life”; David Convery, Irish Academic Press, 2013
- “Communism in Modern Ireland: The Pursuit of the Workers' Republic since 1916”; Mike Milotte, Dublin: Gill & Macmillan, 1984
- “Reds and the Green: Ireland, Russia and the Communist Internationals, 1919 –1943”; Emmet O’Connor, 2004
- “The Irish Labour Party, 1922–73”; Níamh Puirséil, 2007
- “Labour and the Northern Ireland Problem, 1945-51: The Missed Opportunity”; Russell Rees, Irish Academic Press, 2009
- “The Lost Revolution - The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers' Party”; Brian Hanley and Scott Millar, Dublin: Penguin Ireland, 2010
- “ Official Irish Republicanism: 1962-1972”; Sean Swan, 2007

fluffybiscuits
29-04-2014, 12:43 PM
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2012/07/26/democratic-left/

Good post by World By Storm on his experiences in the DL. The DL lovebombed the Unionists in the years before they became part of the LP? Their position on Republicanism softened drastically compared to their years in the WP. Amazing...

Sidewinder
30-04-2014, 01:48 AM
SWP/SP/Left in general have an excellent analysis of imperalism and its approach just happens to be different from that of SF and other parties.

Yeah so their excellent analysis of imperialism and its effects on Ireland leadsa them to the conclusion that the best solution is for Ireland to rejoin the UK - OK what they tout as a "socialist federation"...which is utter ******** cos well a) the Scots are leaving and b) even if the Scots stay the fundamental problem is that England absolutely dwarfs the three celtic nations in population, economy, resources and military and is moreover traditionally right-wing, militaristic, imperialistic and has been for 1000 years so....come back to me when England voluntarily lets Scotland and Wales have independence and gives up on their Imperial warmongering. Until that point pretending "let's all be socialist best buddies 4evah" with a right-wing imperialist behemoth like England is complete nonsense.



His post was satirical I reckon but all that aside are you suggesting an isolationist policy ?

I reckon his post was anything but satirical. The boy has form in this regard and is vehemently anti-nationalist.

And why is it that you are attempting to erect this mad false dichotomy? You, and Richard, are trying to present it as if Ireland has only two options, a binary either/or - as an isolationist Albania or as a subservient adjunct to England (again). There are no other options. This is fundamentally nonsense.

Mad stuff and this is one of the reasons why the Irish Left rarely make much headway even when the centre-right gombeens make a complete mess of it. Nobody trusts your analysis on the national question. As well they might because according to SWP analysis Ireland has no right to exist as a nation at all!

fluffybiscuits
30-04-2014, 12:36 PM
Yeah so their excellent analysis of imperialism and its effects on Ireland leadsa them to the conclusion that the best solution is for Ireland to rejoin the UK - OK what they tout as a "socialist federation"...which is utter ******** cos well a) the Scots are leaving and b) even if the Scots stay the fundamental problem is that England absolutely dwarfs the three celtic nations in population, economy, resources and military and is moreover traditionally right-wing, militaristic, imperialistic and has been for 1000 years so....come back to me when England voluntarily lets Scotland and Wales have independence and gives up on their Imperial warmongering. Until that point pretending "let's all be socialist best buddies 4evah" with a right-wing imperialist behemoth like England is complete nonsense.




I reckon his post was anything but satirical. The boy has form in this regard and is vehemently anti-nationalist.

And why is it that you are attempting to erect this mad false dichotomy? You, and Richard, are trying to present it as if Ireland has only two options, a binary either/or - as an isolationist Albania or as a subservient adjunct to England (again). There are no other options. This is fundamentally nonsense.

Mad stuff and this is one of the reasons why the Irish Left rarely make much headway even when the centre-right gombeens make a complete mess of it. Nobody trusts your analysis on the national question. As well they might because according to SWP analysis Ireland has no right to exist as a nation at all!

Im still scratching my head as to where abouts the SWP analysis dictates we join back with the UK. My own view is a socialist federation of European states (or indeed my wish for just open borders (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?9753-A-Case-for-Open-Borders) but whilst the latter is slightly utopian the former is a little more practical. As Garibaldy said its this cynical attitude really does not help, this cynical view that nationalism in a way holds a trump card. Nationalist politics in Ireland is split down the middle because some people view its violent history as a war others hold it with disdain. You may be best to look in your own back garden before lecturing the left as not making headway.

fluffybiscuits
30-04-2014, 03:08 PM
Yeah so their excellent analysis of imperialism and its effects on Ireland leadsa them to the conclusion that the best solution is for Ireland to rejoin the UK - OK what they tout as a "socialist federation"...which is utter ******** cos well a) the Scots are leaving and b) even if the Scots stay the fundamental problem is that England absolutely dwarfs the three celtic nations in population, economy, resources and military and is moreover traditionally right-wing, militaristic, imperialistic and has been for 1000 years so....come back to me when England voluntarily lets Scotland and Wales have independence and gives up on their Imperial warmongering. Until that point pretending "let's all be socialist best buddies 4evah" with a right-wing imperialist behemoth like England is complete nonsense.




I reckon his post was anything but satirical. The boy has form in this regard and is vehemently anti-nationalist.

And why is it that you are attempting to erect this mad false dichotomy? You, and Richard, are trying to present it as if Ireland has only two options, a binary either/or - as an isolationist Albania or as a subservient adjunct to England (again). There are no other options. This is fundamentally nonsense.

Mad stuff and this is one of the reasons why the Irish Left rarely make much headway even when the centre-right gombeens make a complete mess of it. Nobody trusts your analysis on the national question. As well they might because according to SWP analysis Ireland has no right to exist as a nation at all!

Didnt the SWP also support the opposition to love Ulster parade and give support in 1980s hunger strikers?>

Pearse Monnet
30-10-2014, 11:53 PM
I wonder does any of the politicians or Mandarins from the Student Princes generation of the Stickies know about the existence of this site !

I thought twice before posting this here. I didn’t want to bring it to anyone’s attention in case out of embarrassment that shower of Social Engineers decides to pull it down.

Archive of TIMES CHANGE magazines (http://homepage.eircom.net/~higher/back.htm)

The site is now so plain-looking but this was one of the first political websites.

So, if nothing else the site should be retained and visited as a showpiece of what once was considered to be pioneering in ICT!

Reading thru copies of Times Change might be enraging for many Irish people of a certain generation. DL was a step on the road to the betrayal seen in the last few years by Grovelling Gilmore, Wriggling Rabbitte et al.

I’m posting this for any students of Irish politics
There are other bits related to the DL party on World by Storm’s database of political literature including the posing of an interesting counterfactual (http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2006/10/15/what-if-democratic-left-had-stayed-out-of-government/#comments) about the Democratic Left party staying out of government in 1994

for a bit of an introduction
Times Change was the Quarterly Theoretical Journal of a short-lived political party in the 26 county state (the 26 county state only, notably!)

The magazine was a continuation of the MAKING SENSE magazine of the Stickies, which had lasted from 1980 – 1992

The year that this magazine, MAKING SENSE, was launched - 1980 - saw the party name change from Official Sinn Féin to Sinn Fein the Workers Party. Also, the long-time newspaper of the Republican Movement, THE UNITED IRISHMAN, was renamed THE IRISH PEOPLE.

The changing of MAKING SENSE to TIMES CHANGE in 1992 was part of a split. The split was the second act of a saga that had first seen a faction in the Workers Party try to re-launch the party as a more sanitised version of the organisation it had been (following the collapse of the USSR). This faction, likening themselves as the “reformers”, failed to get the numbers needed in their proposals to overhall the Stickies and then instead set up a new party.

This entity was called Democratic Left. (This action alone shows how utterly bankrupt they were of ideas. They were ape-ing
the Eurocommunists in the English CP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Left_%28UK%29) at the same time)

The “reformers” (or the Student Princes generation of the Stickies) now in their new party - Democratic Left - needed a party organ to propagate to their ever dwindling number of members why a organisation that once was anti-EEC, anti-social partnership, anti-imperialist, and quite ‘green’ on the North, now was the reverse of those positions. MAKING SENSE was changed in 1992 to Times Change; the very titled of the new magazine shows the point they were trying to make.

The closing editions of TIMES CHANGE in the late 90’s contain a contrived attempt to articulate an argument in favour of DL’s absorption into the Labour party.

The articles in these closing editions dealt with issues like
the loss of office in 1997 by the Rainbow Govt and the failure of DL to make further electoral breakthroughs,
“working congenially alongside” their onetime rivals in the 1990 Mary Robinson election campaign, and serving in government with them and campaigning in the 1997 election campaign together.

There is a over-kill of nonsense about future “political forces on the left had to be harmonised” . . . . . . . . . . . . pure political myth-making, plain and simple


From what I remember in my reading of the magazines at the time there seemed to be a preoccupation with Francis Fukayama’s idea about the end of history. They used Fukayama’s analysis to validate the somersault of Frank Ross et al had done from the start of their political career.

The story of DL should serve as a salutary lesson for any leftwing electoral organisation

Mick Tully
31-10-2014, 12:11 AM
100%

Richardbouvet
31-10-2014, 09:13 AM
I agree about the Eurocommunist links. DL were probably very influenced by the revisionist "Marxism Today" and "New times" current in the British CP. Like DL, they were on a road to nowhere.

C. Flower
31-10-2014, 09:48 AM
Yeah so their excellent analysis of imperialism and its effects on Ireland leadsa them to the conclusion that the best solution is for Ireland to rejoin the UK - OK what they tout as a "socialist federation"...which is utter ******** cos well a) the Scots are leaving and b) even if the Scots stay the fundamental problem is that England absolutely dwarfs the three celtic nations in population, economy, resources and military and is moreover traditionally right-wing, militaristic, imperialistic and has been for 1000 years so....come back to me when England voluntarily lets Scotland and Wales have independence and gives up on their Imperial warmongering. Until that point pretending "let's all be socialist best buddies 4evah" with a right-wing imperialist behemoth like England is complete nonsense.




I reckon his post was anything but satirical. The boy has form in this regard and is vehemently anti-nationalist.

And why is it that you are attempting to erect this mad false dichotomy? You, and Richard, are trying to present it as if Ireland has only two options, a binary either/or - as an isolationist Albania or as a subservient adjunct to England (again). There are no other options. This is fundamentally nonsense.

Mad stuff and this is one of the reasons why the Irish Left rarely make much headway even when the centre-right gombeens make a complete mess of it. Nobody trusts your analysis on the national question. As well they might because according to SWP analysis Ireland has no right to exist as a nation at all!

I would be interested to know what other options you think could be made to work.

Do we ally ourselves to Brazil, Venezuela, Iceland, the Donbass, the Free State of Scotland and the people of Kobane ?

I don't think I'm being ironic.

C. Flower
31-10-2014, 09:50 AM
@Pearse: thanks for that: politically and technically an object of interest.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 12:59 PM
Bearing in mind Marx was completely opposed to prostitution, eh, no.

This is the sort of nonsense that hampers the Irish left.

Yourself and other doctrinaires going at it with the PBP over relative trivialities over who said what in 1848 and 1917.

This is one issue I don't have a strong view on but Decriminalising is surely the sensible Republican approach. It is a societal, exploitation and health issue. Legalising it altogether might be seen as the State profiteering from people's misery, often slavery, and addictions.

Moves like we see in the North, possibly on their way on to the Dáil's statute books with that neo-authoritarian Fitzgerald on the case, will just drive it under ground.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 01:23 PM
Indeed, not too many champions of the Irish Proletariat in Labour that I can ever remember.

A sort of Trade Union Social Democrat wing of FG, but at least the old Labourites like Quinn and Burton and Spring etc have or had some form of passion about their Ministries. Gilmore and Rabbite and Lynch etc seem to be happy to just coast and coast as effortlessly as possible through their careers.

It's quite extraordinary, the former "marxists" now in power have literally no ambition at all to do anything other than a bit of tinkering with social policy and a lot of partying on the peoples backs.


They have been exposed by the perfect storm that the Irish economic crisis is. They are essentially FG and that's not what the electorate want off them, so goodbye Labour.

It could have been so different, if only they'd had the ambition to stay out of Govt in 2011.

They'd be looking forward to the Local and European elections, looking at having their best ever election results again and Gilmore for Taoiseach wouldn't be a joke.

They're always whinging that they're minor partners in Govt and so have little power. Well after winning 37 seats in 2011, the magic figure of 40 + seats in 2016 and Senior coalition party status were finally just sitting right there in plain view, just waiting to be taken..

But Labour never had any real ambition to work for senior party status.

See that's it exactly.

The left in Sweden or Denmark for example, who lead left coalitions regularly, would have stayed out. A Labour Taoiseach and SF Tánaiste with some occasional support of Indo lefties and the further left on certain issues would really have shifted the ideology where it needed to go to have any benefit to society.

As you say, if he wanted to be Taoiseach and wanted real change, he would have waited. The fact is he and his Party did what suited his own ideology and financial as wells political interests.

People really thought Gilmore was genuine about change when they looked at him on Leaders Questions. People are fools maybe, but you can imagine how effective he would have been in his finger wagging as leader of the opposition. I voted Independent Left in 2011(denying even Adams my vote in Louth), my first election. I was even less bright when it came to sizing up politicians in 2011 than now, but I didn't fall for it-so I think people were swept along by the ABFF hysteria and did not think about things.

Labour cannot blame anyone else for SF's rise and the Independent left, the smaller parties urbanwise, and even the Greens look sure to be a more credible soft left option than Labour now, that is how far right they have gone as the Greens are not close to as left as SF even.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 01:38 PM
The problem with the Irish "left" is that hardly any of them are "left" in any meaningful sense at all and in fact are usually very reactionary right-wing authoritarian and pro-imperialist. It's just slightly more obvious with the Stickies but the SP and SWP are also both reactionary and imperialist with both actually having a policy of Ireland rejoining the UK. Sure, sure, it's phrased as a voluntary association of equal partners in a socialist federation but that's just ******** frankly.

The "Labour" party have been reactionary right-wingers since the 1960s at least and were actually the most enthusiastically authoritarian members of the quasi-fascist Cosgrave government in the 70s.

Do the SP favour that nonsense? We know Fluffy's party do in fairness as we had this argument a few years back.

The Independent Left has a lot of people of integrity imo. I wouldn't give PBP even a preference after the anti-Bunreacht idiocy of Karl Gill on FB recently writing about how the constitution was a waste of time basically(I have a blog and thread on this), when the problem is the lack of enforcement of it, and the lack of regular debates around how to improve its' laws with the mechanisms afforded-i.e. the problem is not the Bunreacht but people's interpretation of it, from the anti-constitutional pro neoliberal pro EU right, to the anti-sovereign PBP heads and maybe some in the SP too-interestingly Daly left the SP and Collins left the PBP and set up a new party, United Left, who are sure to be targeted by the PBP in the next election-we already know from VB the other night that Brid Smith one who cost the left a European Seat will be after Joan Collins seat as the Labour vote will go to SF and Independents.

SF/Independent Left and some of the non PBP left are our best hope medium term. I have canvassed for the WP down here, but they run in rural Meath and not Drogheda for some reason, I think to do with membership base in Kells. In fairness they have a North Dublin branch now,and are the only left party to take an EEA stance on Europe. They were pretty unambiguous about that to me in 2010 and 2011 and it's a shame the state their organisation is in-getting by but hardly anywhere near the scale of the counter gang PBP and well funded SP. I think they have learnt the lessons of the past though, hence their own unpopularity, as genuinely left politics gets a rough courting outside the main towns anyways.

Was never actually a member of any party myself so the Independent Left probably impress me the most in terms of who would work with SF and actually help to form a government of the left, something that if not all together likely, is no longer inconceivable.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 01:47 PM
What is ******** about a socialist federation? Is it necessary, in order to be part of the left, to believe that the ***** must be outbred by the priest-ridden taigs so that we can have a 32-county Albania?

Still a Labour Party member I see.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 01:49 PM
Shaadi, I have reported your post. I have no inherited resentment and I am not racist. I used both the words taig and proddy. One was made into asterisks and one was not.

A retraction would be in order.

Those are sectarian and pejorative labels, if not racist.

You are very much playing upto Labour's stereotype as the most anti-Nordie pro Border party after 'NI is like Wales' heads like Varadkar in FG.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Turns out that Brian Hayes was once a member of Democratic Left. Guess it has spread to FG too. :)

Regards...jmcc

See when I was 17 I went to DIT(I was already a journalist for regional papers, and you couldn't ignore anything in 2009 with hundreds of jobs going daily and the Dáil around the corner from college) and after 1-2 months there with the Lisbon Guillotine being ramped through with fear etc. I went to a few FG and SF and DIT Council meetings about the matter to try and observe for myself what side made most sense, and where I lay ideologically in some ways.

FG Youth got my address off of the debating society and next thing you know I'm a 'registered member'. I went along to one meeting with my 'card' they had posted to me, listened to the local councillor bleat on for an hour(I was on an alcohol, coffee muffin buzz as I remember well..2nd Insomnia deal of the day..so I listened for once instead of interrupting) about 'all I would say to ye is don't get sick' 'Enda's a great man to go for pints with' etc. etc. ad infinitum and handed my card in to the head of the Branch at the end, explaining I had not expressed any desire to join, was attending as an observer considering the EU debates of the time, found out this ideology wasn't for me especially if it involved stealing people's addresses from civic and media groups they had joined(I was very active in DIT News writing random crap on sports and politics in 2009-10-in my defence I also joined the Irish society, and it turns out FG in DIT asks or at least in the past has asked all other societies for details about certain people it approaches these groups labeling said people as 'members', which allows them to get the postal details of these people, and boost their own branch 'membership' and increase their own funding in one go!).

I used this barrel re my address on them to attend future Minister's 'talks' at DIT for the Newspaper though(the branch organiser agreeing to same anyways to try and keep me on side), so some good came of it as I wrote a small piece exposing Richard Bruton's hypocrisy on advocating Student Loans and claiming FG would not cut student grants. I asked him that question 2-3 times(I just thought I'll pretend I'm Vincent Browne) and he floundered against a 17 year old.

A quick look at Hayes wiki says he joined DL cos of their anti-republicanism in the run up to the GA in 1996/7, and he was only persuaded by the Redmondite Bastard spawn of FG on that basis. Hardly a man who considered ideologies on their merits or lack thereof-merely joining a party out of anti Nordie prejudice.

Generally I think people, especially young people, should be allowed change their mind or make up their mind, but the issue here is people who change their mind all the time and use their ability to do so to become careerists and damage genuine political movements in the process.

I think there's a world of difference between me using FG's misinterpretation of me at 17 with little ideology at that time questioning Ministers say, and the FF/FG/LAB student princes at 18, 19 in their suits running the college's non-academic life, already excercising power by attending Dáil committees and national Union committees. You take a few years as a young person to make up your mind, but you notice the snakes who never had any principles or more importantly, sought any, of all shades right away.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 02:25 PM
Speaking of Hayes, and speaking of prejudice, this fella who as we know joined DL and later FG on his Anti-NI, Anti Republican prejudices, he was spokesperson for Defence, Northern Ireland, and Education down the years, all areas that theoretically require very little prejudice to avoid damaging policy considerations and the interest of the State(as such a person is reflecting in their views and policy works what their actions in office would be).,

He said:

On 19 August 2008, Hayes used a report in the Irish Independent to say that immigrant children should be "segregated" until their English language skills match those of native children.[5] Hayes's comments generated considerable debate in the days that followed.[6][7] The Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO) described the idea put forward by Hayes as "discriminatory, inequitable and deeply flawed".[5] He later said sorry and spoke of his regret but insisted this "should not take away from the substance of what I said".[8][9]

Basically that's a racist point of view, as well as making no educational sense-to learn a language or improve your grasp you need immersion, not isolation, as this thicko would know if he ever bothered learning one(he was prominent in the Anti-Irish language shapes they threw as well which was thick as well as stupid for a party supposedly after the conservative vote).

This is the kind of person we have elected to office, thick, prejudicial and borderline racist in some of his views on Education, and that's before we get to his ideology and actions as Minister.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 02:40 PM
Im still scratching my head as to where abouts the SWP analysis dictates we join back with the UK. My own view is a socialist federation of European states (or indeed my wish for just open borders (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?9753-A-Case-for-Open-Borders) but whilst the latter is slightly utopian the former is a little more practical. As Garibaldy said its this cynical attitude really does not help, this cynical view that nationalism in a way holds a trump card. Nationalist politics in Ireland is split down the middle because some people view its violent history as a war others hold it with disdain. You may be best to look in your own back garden before lecturing the left as not making headway.

A new EU would be a far far worse idea than even the SWP's traditional idea on Britain and Ireland.

Essentially open to back door imperialism considering the political cultures of the largely pro imperial larger European Nations,and the direction in which they are going with half of Europe poised to elect some form of Fascist govt. over the next 5-10 years.

Ireland, like Greece and Spain, is swimming in the opposite direction-left-and PBP still insist on attacking SF at every opportunity instead of building links.

I disagree with most people on the SP though. I think they did what had to be done re. water charges during the by election and they are working with SF in coalition where possible, including Right 2 Water, and have been more than fair in the media debates since the by election.

PBP seem determined to go after the Independent Left's Dáil seats which I find disgustingly hypocritical, standing wherever themmuns' stand, as well as stupid when a mature thing to do would be a pre-election pact with the smaller left groups, and avoiding running in the same area where there is no realistic chance of 2 left party seats as SF will naturally dominate(most areas except Joe Higgins' area where Ruth was elected!)

Ceannaire
31-10-2014, 03:33 PM
Turns out that Brian Hayes was once a member of Democratic Left. Guess it has spread to FG too. :)

Regards...jmcc

He was allegedly once a member of the WP. He was never in DL, as far as I know.


This is the sort of nonsense that hampers the Irish left.

Yourself and other doctrinaires going at it with the PBP over relative trivialities over who said what in 1848 and 1917


Do the SP favour that nonsense? We know Fluffy's party do in fairness as we had this argument a few years back.

The Independent Left has a lot of people of integrity imo. I wouldn't give PBP even a preference after the anti-Bunreacht idiocy of Karl Gill on FB recently writing about how the constitution was a waste of time basically

I'm not allowed pick arguments with PBPA over historical issues but you are. Glad we've clarified that.

Binn Beal
31-10-2014, 04:45 PM
869

It's okay to look back occasionally but its rude to stare.

If you put the index finger of your right hand on the tip of your nose and then point it forward - that's the direction we are all going.

Unity is strength.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 04:50 PM
He was allegedly once a member of the WP. He was never in DL, as far as I know.





I'm not allowed pick arguments with PBPA over historical issues but you are. Glad we've clarified that.

The Bunreacht and the National Question are not historical issues.

What Marx said about Prostitution is.

You can do what you want. I never said anybody wasn't allowed to do anything, but yourself and Fluffy going at it over prostitution is symptomatic of the Irish left sniping.

I am in favour of decriminalisation, and do not understand some of the anti-decriminalisation stances on the very far left and very far right ie in NI. It just drives it underground.

morticia
31-10-2014, 08:49 PM
A new EU would be a far far worse idea than even the SWP's ....

PBP seem determined to go after the Independent Left's Dáil seats which I find disgustingly hypocritical, standing wherever themmuns' stand, as well as stupid when a mature thing to do would be a pre-election pact with the smaller left groups, and avoiding running in the same area where there is no realistic chance of 2 left party seats as SF will naturally dominate(most areas except Joe Higgins' area where Ruth was elected!)

I agree with you. There is however, a (bad) reason for this behaviour and I'd predict it will get worse.

Here's why; back in 2009ish, I went to an academic seminar in TCD. The study looked at the support bases of the then majority parties, FFGLAB, via study of the ethnic origins of the surnames of every TD who sat in the Dail between Independence and 2008, I think. The results showed...and this is totally fascinating... That FF TDs showed a statistically higher chance of carrying a Gaelic origin surname, whereas FGLAB had a higher proportion of surnames they classed as Anglo-Norman.

The current flux, on the face of it looks like breaking this up, as all the traditional parties are centre-right in a more modern ideological divide. But this tribal historic loyalty thing will break through again, I'd predict; SF fits the Gaelic support pattern, funnily enough, while I'd bet PBP, with its leader and founder in DunLaoghaire Rathdown, the opposite.

The Socialists, with their "let's get back to bed with a Socialist Britain" are not living in historic reality (while there is more than one Briton still living, their class system will survive), nor are either they or PBP living on the same planet as SF, who know the realities of UK state sponsored violence up North in the past and won't be falling for that either.

This is one of the reasons why I'd see a long term hookup of SF and FF as far more likely than a United left.

Part of the left is deriving its support from the disaffected middle class, the other part from Republican nationalists.

Ne'er the twain shall meet, sorry.

Apjp
31-10-2014, 09:04 PM
Nah it's more diverse than that.

You have SF, SP who seem open to working with SF and going on their actions of late which I've commented on alread, determined to keep dragging SF left(no bad thing), Independent left which is the 2nd biggest left vote and will only grow too, United Left of Collins and Daly who should win another 1-2 seats you would think if the PBP/SWP left avoids its' recent stupidity of hampering the above.

I would probably give the Greens a higher pref than PBP now if they run in Louth in the GE(they ran locally, hampering the SP vote).

I think there is potential there if the rest of them tame PBP like they have done to some extent on the water charges coalition, and I would emphasise that word.

morticia
31-10-2014, 10:35 PM
PBP is based in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown (or, at least, its leader is). I'd reiterate that they're probably being told "anything but the republicans" on doorsteps here. So I don't think they'll moderate, at least not until it becomes obvious that a different attitude might work better elsewhere.

The Socialist party has a different motivation; my husband used to be a member abroad and the whole brotherhood of nations thing is based on an ideological, better version of the Soviet Union, devoid of racial and gender bias, an ideal. Agree in principle, will never work in practice. People are too fond of their national identities, self included.

Like I said, I'm not sure I can see them all sitting down and agreeing on much. But I could be wrong.

Re the ethnic stuff, the original study was done on the surnames of the multi regional TDs, not whether they were from the Pale or not. The original British colonists were indeed concentrated in the Pale and Ulster, and there are still higher concentrations of Protestants in these regions, but Dublin is far from devoid of Irish surnames; they're probably in a majority everywhere. So SF having its biggest support in Dublin isn't surprising either, since the capital cities everywhere tend to contain more politically active people of all stripes.

A recent enough study in Britain found that those carrying Norman/French origin surnames had a higher chance of being wealthy than those with Saxon or Celtic origin names.

I wouldn't be surprised if a similar wealth distribution in favour of Anglo Norman names exists here. It would be interesting to see if the proportions of such surnames in Dalkey/Howth/Foxrock were higher than elsewhere.

The theory is totally compatible with Dublin's less well off, who largely voted FF in the past, turning to SF now. It would suggest that if they could resolve the current sex scandal related issues, moreover, there might be a lot more support to be had, the longer the peace goes on. FF used to get the odd overall majority after all.

Shaadi
01-11-2014, 12:01 AM
PBP is based in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown (or, at least, its leader is). I'd reiterate that they're probably being told "anything but the republicans" on doorsteps here. So I don't think they'll moderate, at least not until it becomes obvious that a different attitude might work better elsewhere.

The Socialist party has a different motivation; my husband used to be a member abroad and the whole brotherhood of nations thing is based on an ideological, better version of the Soviet Union, devoid of racial and gender bias, an ideal. Agree in principle, will never work in practice. People are too fond of their national identities, self included.

Like I said, I'm not sure I can see them all sitting down and agreeing on much. But I could be wrong.

Re the ethnic stuff, the original study was done on the surnames of the multi regional TDs, not whether they were from the Pale or not. The original British colonists were indeed concentrated in the Pale and Ulster, and there are still higher concentrations of Protestants in these regions, but Dublin is far from devoid of Irish surnames; they're probably in a majority everywhere. So SF having its biggest support in Dublin isn't surprising either, since the capital cities everywhere tend to contain more politically active people of all stripes.

A recent enough study in Britain found that those carrying Norman/French origin surnames had a higher chance of being wealthy than those with Saxon or Celtic origin names.

I wouldn't be surprised if a similar wealth distribution in favour of Anglo Norman names exists here. It would be interesting to see if the proportions of such surnames in Dalkey/Howth/Foxrock were higher than elsewhere.

The theory is totally compatible with Dublin's less well off, who largely voted FF in the past, turning to SF now. It would suggest that if they could resolve the current sex scandal related issues, moreover, there might be a lot more support to be had, the longer the peace goes on. FF used to get the odd overall majority after all.Thanks for giving us a peek into a hidden world morticia. You come across a level of anti-republican/SF/FF/Dev/Catholic Church vitriol on websites that is beyond any level you would meet in society and you're left scratching your head a bit as to why such a level of venom still exists. You suggest their vitriol may be an inherited West Brit family thing and they scream there's no such thing as a West Brit calling you a loon for even mentioning the obvious. Why can't they just spit it out that their tradition is such? Why all the dishonest obfuscation of how they think?

Has this hatred which is quite hysterical been nursed and handed down in secret, and why would that be?

Binn Beal
01-11-2014, 12:12 AM
Just an aside: I wouldn't read too much into that surnames business. Inner-city or traditional working-class Dublin names are predominantly English - not Anglo-Norman but English. Check any list, such as the Citizen Army volunteers or Transport Union records or British Army casualties for Dublin regiments to see what I mean.

morticia
01-11-2014, 11:52 AM
Just an aside: I wouldn't read too much into that surnames business. Inner-city or traditional working-class Dublin names are predominantly English - not Anglo-Norman but English. Check any list, such as the Citizen Army volunteers or Transport Union records or British Army casualties for Dublin regiments to see what I mean.

The phrase Anglo-Norman was used to describe both, basically resulting from two waves of invasion under Strongbow, initially and then Elizabeth I through to Cromwell.

But people's loyalties change; the surnames are patrilineal but often the political culture can be influenced more by the mother's family as traditionally, they've spent more time with the children. The Normans came in 800 years ago, there's been a lot of intermarriage since then.

However, the invisible hand of the class system would, it appears, have kept a lot of people in roughly the same social strata for centuries in both Britain and Ireland. Given that Downton Abbey style social rules, or worse, were the norm until 120 years ago, it is perhaps not surprising that there is still some degree of statistically significant segregation.

@Shaadi, yes, there would be an invisible hand of tradition in there giving some people the feeling that they have an inviolable right to maintain their wealth and social status, totally.

However, I'd have to admit I'm an exception to the rules there, the Irish side of my family would carry one of those Anglo-Norman second names, but there'd be a fair number of FFers amongst the older members. And I'd consider myself floating centre left Republican.....and would vote more on policy offers than tradition too. And not for the Blueshirts.

It's just an interesting theory, really, nice in that it does explain the fact that the three dominant parties until recently had few actual major policy differences, but major differences in support base. It's not 100%

Launchbury
01-11-2014, 12:02 PM
I cant see where names come into people's political beliefs. Personally I come from a Fianna Fail background, and I would be pretty far left in my beliefs. I certainly didn't inherit my political beliefs from the family. Thank God

C. Flower
01-11-2014, 12:12 PM
I cant see where names come into people's political beliefs. Personally I come from a Fianna Fail background, and I would be pretty far left in my beliefs. I certainly didn't inherit my political beliefs from the family. Thank God

:)