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View Full Version : Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin



Saoirse go Deo
21-10-2013, 11:52 AM
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Farmers, shopkeepers, publicans and businessmen were slaughtered in a bloody decade of bombings and shootings in the counties of Tyrone and Armagh in the 1970s. Four families each lost three relatives; in other cases, children were left orphaned after both parents were murdered. For years there were claims that loyalists were helped and guided by members of the RUC and Ulster Defence Regiment. But, until now, there was no proof. Drawing on 15 years of research, and using forensic and ballistic information never before published, this book includes official documents showing that the highest in the land knew of the collusion and names those whose fingers were on the trigger and who detonated the bombs. It draws on previously unpublished reports written by the PSNI's own Historical Enquiries Team. It also includes heartbreaking interviews with the bereaved families whose lives were shattered by this cold and calculated campaign.

About the Author

Anne Cadwallader is an experienced journalist, originally from London. She has worked for the BBC, RTE, The Irish Press, Independent Network News and Reuters, spending a large part of her time reporting from Northern Ireland. She is the author of 'Holy Cross - The Untold Story' (Brehon Press, 2004). In 2009 she gave up journalism to work for The Pat Finucane Centre for Human Rights in Armagh as an investigator and case worker.

C. Flower
21-10-2013, 12:24 PM
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Interesting. I will put those dates in our events calendar.

There have of course also been claims that this slaughter was directed by the British using loyalists and the local forces as willing glove puppets. I will be interested to see if that is investigated in this book.

I also find the word collusion a bit vague. I would like to know who directed this strategy, if it was a strategy. If the British role was just a blind eye to mayhem, that needs also to be known and understood.

The "random" deaths of these years wore people down and made them ready (quite reasonably) to accept anything to make it stop.

Saoirse go Deo
25-10-2013, 12:29 PM
Some media coverage on the book:


A new book claims members of the RUC and UDR were part of a loyalist gang that killed more than 100 people in the 1970s.

The book claims to have uncovered evidence of collusion on a huge scale.

It says the loyalist gang operated from farms in counties Armagh and Tyrone.

One extract, from an unpublished HET report, says there was "indisputable evidence of security forces collusion" that should have rung alarm bells all the way to the top of government.

Lethal Allies - British Collusion in Ireland contains other extracts of unpublished reports by the Historical Enquiries Team (HET) that refer to evidence of widespread collusion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24645945



AN EXPLOSIVE new book published on Friday has concluded that it can be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt, that systemic collusion between the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries existed in parts of Tyrone during the 1970s. ‘Lethal Allies: British Collusion in Ireland’ is the outcome of 15 years of research by the Pat Finucane Centre alongside over 120 families who were bereaved by a UVF gang between 1972 and 1976. The book reveals that the UDR status of William Leonard, convicted of murdering Tyrone GAA star Jim Devlin (45) and his wife Gertrude (44) in 1974, was suppressed and withheld from the courts. It also questions the Director of Public Prosecutions decision not to charge Leonard with the attempted murder of their 17-year-old daughter Patricia Devlin. Leonard also escaped four bombing charges. The RUC’s failure to investigate the hundreds of losses of weapons from UDR men’s homes and British Army bases and arsenals is also exposed by the book. -
See more at: http://ulsterherald.com/2013/10/23/new-book-proves-systemic-collusion-existed-in-tyrone/#sthash.I94d2NYy.dpuf


One of the most important books about the dirty war fought in Northern Ireland during the 30 years between 1968 and 1998 has just been published.

Lethal Allies: British collusion in Ireland* offers "indisputable evidence of security forces collusion" with loyalist paramilitaries.

It alleges that members of the police force, the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), and Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), were part of a loyalist gang that killed more than 100 people in just one small area in the 1970s.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/oct/25/northernireland-pat-finucane

Very good interview of the author by Pat Kenny which is really worth a listen:

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Highlights/36592/0/anne_cadwalladers_explosive_new_book_on_the_troubl es

C. Flower
25-10-2013, 12:49 PM
Were they independent, or were they directed by the British State ?

Saoirse go Deo
25-10-2013, 01:02 PM
Were they independent, or were they directed by the British State ?

Seems to be a bit of both, the interview is worth listening to, she compares it to what the Brits did in Kenya and Cyprus.

Well, when you say "independent" you might want to elaborate on that... if they are facilitated, not only a blind eye turned to their activities but actually kept out of jail, not investigated etc are they operating "independently"?

C. Flower
25-10-2013, 01:06 PM
Seems to be a bit of both, the interview is worth listening to, she compares it to what the Brits did in Kenya and Cyprus.

Well, when you say "independent" you might want to elaborate on that... if they are facilitated, not only a blind eye turned to their activities but actually kept out of jail, not investigated etc are they operating "independently"?

I am asking if this book expresses a view on whether these operations were directed by the British State (special forces) as in Kenya, Cyprus and Malaysia - and of course Iraq) - or whether the carnage in Northern Ireland was primarily a brawl between local sectarian factions.

I don't think it is a small question.

I think the word "collusion" is fuzzy and blurs this fundamental issue over.

Saoirse go Deo
25-10-2013, 01:11 PM
I am asking if this book expresses a view on whether these operations were directed by the British State (special forces) as in Kenya, Cyprus and Malaysia - and of course Iraq) - or whether the carnage in Northern Ireland was primarily a brawl between local sectarian factions.

I don't think it is a small question.

I think the word "collusion" is fuzzy and blurs this fundamental issue over.

I'll let you know for sure when I read it :)

C. Flower
25-10-2013, 01:22 PM
I'll let you know for sure when I read it :)

Thanks. If these operations were directed by the British State, the question that comes up is what was the purpose of the strategy.

If not, we must hold up our hands as irrational brawling Paddies, as portrayed by the media, particularly in the U.K.

Dr. FIVE
27-10-2013, 02:45 AM
Greenslade

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/oct/25/northernireland-pat-finucane


Looks like very important book, have it ordered. Like wikileaks, Snowden and Manning it would be very easy to shrug and say tell us something we don't know but confirmation of what-we-already-know is still underrated and very important imo. We're unlikely to see much coverage of this in the Sindo but it will be discussed in the Dáil and there you see some true colours.

C. Flower
27-10-2013, 02:56 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/23/ruc-cover-up-inquiry-documents-book

This whole narrative that these were acts of "rogue officers" covered up by the police and army, does not convince me for one instant.

Maybe in some cases, but overall, it has every appearance of being a strategy.

the reporting of this sets out to make it sound as though a few members of the forces found their way out of delinquency into loyalist gangs.

Simply not credible. The British army and Special Branch was up to the ears in it.

http://thebrokenelbow.com/2012/12/12/the-cairo-gang-the-force-research-unit-murder-in-ireland-and-rupert-murdoch/

Dr. FIVE
27-10-2013, 03:13 AM
no doubt,


Every tactic of the 'dirty war' was practised on this island for centuries before being exported all over the globe.

morticia
27-10-2013, 07:45 AM
no doubt,


Every tactic of the 'dirty war' was practised on this island for centuries before being exported all over the globe.

As a colleague from the North once said; when growing up, he wondered if the likes of An Poblacht and other elements of the nationalist press were exaggerating their claims of UK government involvement in atrocities.

More and more, the 30 years later revelations appear to suggest not.

The problem with modern unionism is that the officer class (the UK government operatives)may have been recalled or at least leashed after the GFA, meaning the rabble are leaderless,

Lord help us if the UK ever decides it can't afford the North any more, I've no idea how we'd prevent a civil war, at least up north.

Apjp
27-10-2013, 01:11 PM
Important book. I'm moving away in less than three weeks now though so will wait til I'm settled elsewhere to order it. Anything that blows British lies out of the water has to be welcomed, even if it is only on a general level of proving there was collusion rather than a deeper level of asking why that collusion took place. Important first steps imo to laying the ground for further digging and further light into Britain's real motivations behind the GFA and their more recent renewable resource grabs in Ireland and their grooming of the 26 counties as well.

Anyone know if Easons or Waterstones have said when it goes on general release? Might try and get it that way.

Saoirse go Deo
28-10-2013, 11:59 AM
The book is making waves anyway:


Amnesty International
PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: SATURDAY 26 OCTOBER 2013

NORTHERN IRELAND: NEW COLLUSION ALLEGATIONS SHOW NEED TO DEAL WITH THE PAST

Amnesty International has said that serious new allegations of widespread collusion between state and paramilitaries must prompt a new debate on investigating human rights violations and abuses in Northern Ireland.

Amnesty has welcomed the publication of Lethal Allies: British Collusion in Ireland by Anne Cadwallader, a book which sets out in extensive detail the alleged collusion which occurred at many levels between the RUC, the UDR and UK government officials and loyalist paramilitaries in the 1970s.

Many of the cases covered in detail in the book, involving shootings and bombings by UVF paramilitaries — in and around Armagh, Portadown, Dungannon and the Dublin & Monaghan bombings in the Republic of Ireland — now known as the ‘Glenanne Series’, also feature in Amnesty International’s recent report “Northern Ireland: Time to deal with past.”

Patrick Corrigan, Northern Ireland Programme Director of Amnesty International UK, said:

“Lethal Allies is a detailed, groundbreaking examination of a very dark and violent period in Northern Ireland’s recent political history, which continues to cause pain and anguish for many bereaved families who still seek truth and justice.

“This book should not be dismissed with glib and rehearsed criticisms and denials. It merits serious attention, and ought to provoke an informed and educated discussion about why we need to deal with the past properly.”

Amnesty International is calling for a comprehensive mechanism to be set up to review the conflict as a whole, establish the truth about outstanding human rights violations and determine responsibility.

ENDS

Sam Lord
29-10-2013, 06:36 AM
I am asking if this book expresses a view on whether these operations were directed by the British State (special forces) as in Kenya, Cyprus and Malaysia - and of course Iraq) - or whether the carnage in Northern Ireland was primarily a brawl between local sectarian factions.


So either the loyalist death squads were directed by the Brits or conflict in the north was "a brawl between local sectarian factions"?

The logic of this escapes me entirely ....

C. Flower
29-10-2013, 07:24 AM
So either the loyalist death squads were directed by the Brits or conflict in the north was "a brawl between local sectarian factions"?

The logic of this escapes me entirely ....


The conflict in the north is persistently presented that way both in the U.K. and in the media in the Republic. "The Irish are always fighting" "It's a sectarian war" - "God help the poor British for having to deal with it."
From what I have read there is substantial evidence that these killer gangs were formed and directed by the British - specifically by Special Branch officers. Personally, I can't believe that it was anything other than a strategy to foment sectarianism to disable an effective mass campaign for British withdrawal and to mask a programme of assassinations.

Imo, talking about "collusion" obscures this.

Sam Lord
29-10-2013, 10:22 AM
The conflict in the north is persistently presented that way both in the U.K. and in the media in the Republic. "The Irish are always fighting" "It's a sectarian war" - "God help the poor British for having to deal with it."


I'm aware of how the conflict was presented.



From what I have read there is substantial evidence that these killer gangs were formed and directed by the British - specifically by Special Branch officers. Personally, I can't believe that it was anything other than a strategy to foment sectarianism to disable an effective mass campaign for British withdrawal and to mask a programme of assassinations.


I don't think that there is any real evidence that either the UDA or the UVF were directly established by the Brits. They would not need to. When your ideology has been imbibed people will often do things in your interests without you necessarily telling them to do so. It is interesting to me that many top Loyalists were former British soldiers.

I also do think that there is any great evidence that the Brits entirely "directed" these organisations either. We were having a discussion, for example, recently on the UWC strike which was loyalist led and against British policy at the time. Also, I believe, the UDA had an independent Northern Ireland policy for a short while which I doubt was Brit inspired.



Imo, talking about "collusion" obscures this.

I don't think "collusion" really covers it either but one would not want to overstate the case at the same time. The evidence certainly is that the British state pointed the loyalists in the direction of people they wanted murdered through the provision of information, covered up for them, turned a blind eye to what would have been a significant overlapping membership of the loyalists death squads and the UDR, cleared the way for their "runs" into nationalists areas etc.

I'm still not sure how it would have taken the Brits to have set up and directed the loyalist death squads for the conflict to not have been a "brawl between local sectarian gangs". The IRA did kill many loyalists (though they never targeted the Protestant population) but they killed several times as many members of the security services. The loyalists managed to kill surprisingly few republicans .. their brawl was with the catholic population at large. This, of course, reflects a highly sectarian outlook but at the end of the day one fostered over centuries by British imperialism.

Saoirse go Deo
29-10-2013, 12:21 PM
Just a reminder that the launch in Dublin is tonight at half seven in Glasnevin cemetary museum.

C. Flower
29-10-2013, 05:12 PM
I'm aware of how the conflict was presented.

I don't think that there is any real evidence that either the UDA or the UVF were directly established by the Brits. They would not need to. When your ideology has been imbibed people will often do things in your interests without you necessarily telling them to do so. It is interesting to me that many top Loyalists were former British soldiers.

I also do think that there is any great evidence that the Brits entirely "directed" these organisations either. We were having a discussion, for example, recently on the UWC strike which was loyalist led and against British policy at the time. Also, I believe, the UDA had an independent Northern Ireland policy for a short while which I doubt was Brit inspired.



I don't think "collusion" really covers it either but one would not want to overstate the case at the same time. The evidence certainly is that the British state pointed the loyalists in the direction of people they wanted murdered through the provision of information, covered up for them, turned a blind eye to what would have been a significant overlapping membership of the loyalists death squads and the UDR, cleared the way for their "runs" into nationalists areas etc.

I'm still not sure how it would have taken the Brits to have set up and directed the loyalist death squads for the conflict to not have been a "brawl between local sectarian gangs". The IRA did kill many loyalists (though they never targeted the Protestant population) but they killed several times as many members of the security services. The loyalists managed to kill surprisingly few republicans .. their brawl was with the catholic population at large. This, of course, reflects a highly sectarian outlook but at the end of the day one fostered over centuries by British imperialism.

I was not commenting on who set up those organisations, but on specific sectarian murder campaigns and atrocities directed by the British State. It is possible that they were not only directed at Catholics (protestants have raised the question as to whether Kingsmill was a British led operation).

C. Flower
30-10-2013, 06:06 AM
Red, white, blue and orange, with Nazi salutes.

http://ansionnachfionn.com/2013/10/27/british-soldiers-nazi-salutes-the-story-we-had-first/

Sam Lord
31-10-2013, 05:19 AM
Interview with the author, Anne Cadwallader:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05sigYFww2s

Saoirse go Deo
31-10-2013, 03:50 PM
I attended the launch in Dublin, there were a lot of familiar faces there, people like Tim Pat Coogan (who would have been a better person to invite to speak rather than Vincent Browne imo) Robert Ballagh and a number of political figures and ex republican prisoners as well as the relations of some of the victims discussed in Cadwallader's book. The first print run of books has sold out already, if you want one the best thing to do is order it from Mercier Press' website. The speakers focused heavily on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings

C. Flower
31-10-2013, 06:36 PM
I attended the launch in Dublin, there were a lot of familiar faces there, people like Tim Pat Coogan (who would have been a better person to invite to speak rather than Vincent Browne imo) Robert Ballagh and a number of political figures and ex republican prisoners as well as the relations of some of the victims discussed in Cadwallader's book. The first print run of books has sold out already, if you want one the best thing to do is order it from Mercier Press' website. The speakers focused heavily on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings

Is there anything new on the bombings in it ?

Apjp
31-10-2013, 11:30 PM
That is something I suppose people from the 26 counties would be guilty of. But they were acts of war against a State and the State may well have colluded in those acts of war by facilitating a cover up or else by refusing to go after those most clearly responsible, directly or indirectly, at the highest international level. We also know that Liam Cosgrave came on the news like a Regular Enda and lest it be forgotten more or less said all of the dozens killed and maimed were IRA collaborators and deserved their fate even though they were innocent bystanders in the ongoing conflict just going home from work or about their business.

Israeli diplomats got expelled just for copying Irish passports to facilitate terrorism. How about a bit less hypocrisy and going after the State that committed terror against Irish citizens on an island wide basis, which largely caused and definitely prolonged the recent conflict. SF have to have this on the agenda if they win a GE in the next few years.

C. Flower
01-11-2013, 04:30 AM
[QUOTE=Apjp;359203]That is something I suppose people from the 26 counties would be guilty of.

What would ? There are very considerable published grounds for believing that the Dublin and Omagh bombs were carried out by the British.


But they were acts of war against a State and the State may well have colluded in those acts of war by facilitating a cover up or else by refusing to go after those most clearly responsible, directly or indirectly, at the highest international level. We also know that Liam Cosgrave came on the news like a Regular Enda and lest it be forgotten more or less said all of the dozens killed and maimed were IRA collaborators and deserved their fate even though they were innocent bystanders in the ongoing conflict just going home from work or about their business.

He said what ??
Had he not been trying to get some legislation through the Dail that restricted rights and was the bombing not helpful to this legislation ?


Israeli diplomats got expelled just for copying Irish passports to facilitate terrorism. How about a bit less hypocrisy and going after the State that committed terror against Irish citizens on an island wide basis, which largely caused and definitely prolonged the recent conflict. SF have to have this on the agenda if they win a GE in the next few years.

I don't understand what you are suggesting. But if you are suggesting that SF would go after the British State to get justice over the bombings, I don't think there is any chance of that happening.

C. Flower
01-11-2013, 04:43 AM
In Northern Ireland, Sammy Smyth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sammy_Smyth_%28loyalist%29), then press officer of both the Ulster Defence Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Association) (UDA) and the Ulster Workers' Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Workers%27_Council) (UWC) Strike Committee, said:

I am very happy about the bombings in Dublin. There is a war with the Free State and now we are laughing at them.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-16)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-17)

Party leaders in the Dáil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1il) (Irish parliament), sitting about 300 metres from the site of the South Leinster Street blast, commented on the following Monday. Taoiseach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoiseach) Liam Cosgrave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Cosgrave) recorded his disgust, considering further that –
....the blood of the innocent victims of last Friday's outrage—and of the victims of similar outrages in the North and in England—is on the hands of every man who has fired a gun or discharged a bomb in furtherance of the present campaign of violence in these islands—just as plainly as it is on the hands of those who parked the cars and set the charges last Friday. In our times, violence cannot be contained in neat compartments and justified in one case but not in another.

The opposition leader Jack Lynch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Lynch) was sickened by the "cruel" events, and also widened the question of blame –
Every person and every organisation which played any part in the campaign of bombing and violence which killed and maimed people and destroyed property in Belfast, Derry or any other part of our country and indeed in Britain over the past five years, shares the guilt and the shame of the assassins who actually placed these bombs on the streets of Dublin and Monaghan last Friday.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-18)

According to a Dublin newspaper in 2005, the then British Ambassador to the Republic of Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ambassadors_from_the_United_Kingdom_to_the _Republic_of_Ireland), Arthur Galsworthy, noted the reactions in Dublin immediately after the bombings:
...there is no sign of any general anti-Northern Protestant reaction ... The predictable attempt by the IRA to pin the blame on the British (British agents, the SAS, etc) has made no headway at all. ... It is only now that the South has experienced violence that they are reacting in the way that the North has sought for so long.

The newspaper noted that "despite these feelings of schadenfreude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude)", Galsworthy continued,
it would be ... a psychological mistake for us to rub this point in. ... I think the Irish have taken the point.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-19)



It seems the UVF rushed to claim responsibility once the involvement of the British/SAS was pointed out. As directed to, perhaps.


Responsibility for the bombings

The Ulster Volunteer Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Volunteer_Force_%281966%29) (UVF) claimed responsibility for the bombings in 1993, following a TV documentary on the bombings that named the UVF as the perpetrators, and which alleged that elements of British security forces were involved in the attack.
Yorkshire Television documentary

On 7 July 1993 the British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) television station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_station) Yorkshire Television (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_Television) broadcast, as part of First Tuesday series, the documentary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_film) Hidden Hand: The Forgotten Massacre,[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-20) a programme on the bombings in co-operation with a number of retired officers in An Garda Síochána, the Irish police force. The programme claimed that the bombings were the work of the UVF. It named a number of UVF members whom it said had taken part in the bombings, and who had since been killed during the Troubles. These included Billy Hanna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Hanna), Robert McConnell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McConnell_%28loyalist%29), Harris Boyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Boyle), and a key loyalist, whom the producers referred to as "the Jackal". The latter was later identified as Robin Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Jackson), who was still alive at the time of the broadcasting, and the programme's producers had feared an accusation of libel. William "Frenchie" Marchant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Marchant_%28loyalist%29) was named as the leader of the Belfast UVF gang known as "Freddie and the Dreamers", which had hijacked the cars used in the bombings.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-21)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-22)
Hidden Hand also claimed, however, that loyalist paramilitaries were aided by British security force members. Forensic examination seemed to suggest that the Dublin bombs had been built with some sophistication.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-23) Garda officers claimed that the UVF had been assisted by elements in the British security forces. Subsequently, a number of questions were asked in the Dáil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1il), the Irish parliament, about responsibility for the massacre. The government ordered the Gardaí to assess the information in the television programme.



UVF claims responsibility One week later, on 15 July 1993, the Ulster Volunteer Force confirmed responsibility for the bombings, but also denied that it was aided by British security forces.
The UVF claimed that:

The entire operation was from its conception to its successful conclusion, planned and carried out by our volunteers aided by no outside bodies. In contrast to the scenario painted by the programme, it would have been unnecessary and indeed undesirable to compromise our volunteers anonimity [sic] by using clandestine Security Force personnel, British or otherwise, to achieve [an] objective well within our capabilities. ... Given the backdrop of what was taking place in Northern Ireland when the UVF [were] bombing republican targets at will, either the researchers decided to take poetic licence to the limit or the truth was being twisted by knaves to make [a] trap for the fools. ... The minimum of scrutiny should have revealed that the structure of the bombs placed in Dublin and Monaghan were similar if not identical to those being placed in Northern Ireland on an almost daily basis. The type of explosives, timing and detonating methods all bore the hallmark of the UVF. It is incredulous [sic] that these points were lost on the Walter Mittys who conjured up this programme. To suggest that the UVF were not, or are not, capable of operating in the manner outlined in the programme is tempting fate to a dangerous degree.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-24)

UVF claims responsibility One week later, on 15 July 1993, the Ulster Volunteer Force confirmed responsibility for the bombings, but also denied that it was aided by British security forces.

The UVF claimed that:

The entire operation was from its conception to its successful conclusion, planned and carried out by our volunteers aided by no outside bodies. In contrast to the scenario painted by the programme, it would have been unnecessary and indeed undesirable to compromise our volunteers anonimity [sic] by using clandestine Security Force personnel, British or otherwise, to achieve [an] objective well within our capabilities. ... Given the backdrop of what was taking place in Northern Ireland when the UVF [were] bombing republican targets at will, either the researchers decided to take poetic licence to the limit or the truth was being twisted by knaves to make [a] trap for the fools. ... The minimum of scrutiny should have revealed that the structure of the bombs placed in Dublin and Monaghan were similar if not identical to those being placed in Northern Ireland on an almost daily basis. The type of explosives, timing and detonating methods all bore the hallmark of the UVF. It is incredulous [sic] that these points were lost on the Walter Mittys who conjured up this programme. To suggest that the UVF were not, or are not, capable of operating in the manner outlined in the programme is tempting fate to a dangerous degree.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings#cite_note-24)

Sam Lord
01-11-2013, 12:56 PM
Just had brought to my attention an absolutely disgraceful article Cadwallander wrote in 2000 concerning the killing of Joe O'Connor:



Six others, being named as "scouts" and accessories to the
murder, are understood to have been in the area on their way back home from
shopping or buying newspapers.


:rolleyes:



It may be that members of the IRA, unlikely at it seems, with or without
sanction, chose this precise and sensitive moment in the peace process to
kill a member of a smaller, rival republican grouping.

The other possibility is that O'Connor was murdered for far more complex
reasons than that, and the truth has yet to come out.


Well, I hope by this stage she has worked the truth of that nasty little piece of business out.

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg04082.html

Is she some sort of SF stooge?

Sam Lord
01-11-2013, 01:04 PM
Joe Tiernan did a pretty comprehensive investigation into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings several years ago. (I lent my copy to someone and never got it back :() I wonder if Cadwallander is just recycling this stuff or if there is genuinely new information in her book.

C. Flower
01-11-2013, 01:40 PM
Joe Tiernan did a pretty comprehensive investigation into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings several years ago. (I lent mu copy to someone and never got it back :() I wonder if Cadwallander is just recycling this stuff or if there is genuinely new information in her book.

I understand that it is in part based on the HET reports some of which were criticised heavily. But I don't know enough about Cadwallader or the book to pass any judgement.
In general, I think people who seriously want to investigate should drop the "collusion" term, which is far too vague. Holroyd and others have claimed that countergangs were set up by the British and used to intensify conflict between nationalists and loyalists. That would be, if true, something very different from collusion.


Don't you just hate when that happens with books. :( My copy of Lost Revolution went awol, too.

Saoirse go Deo
01-11-2013, 01:40 PM
Joe Tiernan did a pretty comprehensive investigation into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings several years ago. (I lent mu copy to someone and never got it back :() I wonder if Cadwallander is just recycling this stuff or if there is genuinely new information in her book.

I haven't got to that bit yet, but the book is about a murder gang in Tyrone and Armagh and associated collusion. I haven't read Joe Tiernans book but I think the "new" information may be setting the context in which it happened. There is not that much on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, less than a chapter so I doubt there is anything groundbreaking with regards to that one event, but rather the general tapestry of collusion.

You seem a bit down on Cadwallader but I've heard nothing but praise for the book from political enemies of SF. I've found the book quite overwhelming so far, the examples of collusion have come quick and fast.

Sam Lord
01-11-2013, 01:53 PM
I haven't got to that bit yet, but the book is about a murder gang in Tyrone and Armagh and associated collusion.


Tiernan covered the whole thing in depth. The murder triangle. Named the names. Pictures of the farm they operated out of etc.



You seem a bit down on Cadwallader but I've heard nothing but praise for the book from political enemies of SF. I've found the book quite overwhelming so far, the examples of collusion have come quick and fast.

Well, for someone apparently interested in getting to the truth of killings the way she handled the O'Connor murder was pretty shocking.

Contrast it with, say, Liz Walsh in Magill at the time:



Outside of Provisional republican circles there is no doubt that the IRA is responsible for the killing, one that would necessarily have had to be sanctioned at the top – at Army Council level.

If the family know who shot him, if eyewitnesses and the RUC know who did it, it makes the official silence surrounding the killing all the more remarkable. At this stage, there is more evidence available of IRA involvement than there was available in the killing of Andrew Kearney, the Belfast man murdered by the IRA in July 1998. His killing was condemned by the Bishop of Down and Conor, senior members of the British and Irish governments and Opposition politicians and led ultimately to Sinn Féin being suspended from the Stormont talks.

In contrast, there appears to be a Nelsonian blind eye turned to the O’Connor killing and a de facto breach of the IRA ceasefire.

The murder happened two days before the Taoiseach Bertie Ahern made his Bodenstown speech, in which he promised to crush the Real IRA. There was no reference to the O’Connor killing. The Catholic Church, the SDLP and the Opposition politicians have maintained a deafening silence. The question is why?

Saoirse go Deo
01-11-2013, 03:05 PM
Will you be reading the book? Hard for me to say what exactly is new given that I haven't read the other books.

A bit harsh to write off her work or to cast the whole thing in doubt because of one article, no matter how bad, that was a current event when she was writing about it, this is a scholarly endeavor building on years of research, interviews and HET reports. She's not making any money from it, all proceeds are going to the Pat Finucaine center, I'd be inclined to support her work as most people seem to be doing and to be fair, as a case worker for the center she has done some good work.

C. Flower
01-11-2013, 03:14 PM
The title "Lethal Allies" suggests an equal relationship between the British State and loyalist paramilitaries, as does the phrase collusion. The reaction after Dublin and Monaghan evidence emerged was for the paramilitaries to step forward to take the rap (contrary to evidence). The reaction when still more evidence emerges is to say that it was "collusion." From what I've read about the events in the North and UK, and other British colonies, I am far from convinced that there was equality or collusion of equal partners. The British State has too much form globally.

I think that not only this book needs to be read, but the whole political context in Britain needs to be looked at, and the evidence that a "state within a state" was operating in Britain.

Sam Lord
01-11-2013, 03:34 PM
Will you be reading the book? Hard for me to say what exactly is new given that I haven't read the other books.


Yes, I will probably read it in due course. And I will compare it with previous stuff if I can get my Tierney book back as it is hard to come by. There was no big fanfare when it was published .. in fact I think distributors refused to carry it.



A bit harsh to write off her work or to cast the whole thing in doubt because of one article, no matter how bad, that was a current event when she was writing about it, this is a scholarly endeavor building on years of research, interviews and HET reports. She's not making any money from it, all proceeds are going to the Pat Finucaine center, I'd be inclined to support her work as most people seem to be doing and to be fair, as a case worker for the center she has done some good work.

I'm not writing off her work .. I have not read it. It's just a bit unfortunate that in her past she choose to whitewash the O'Connor killing and spin for SF. That's all. I guess at the time she did not realise that down the road she would be making a name as someone who fearlessly investigated to get to the bottom of killings in the six counties. As you say, it was a current event she was reporting on at the time but she just regurgitated the SF spin when the proverbial dogs in the street knew who had killed him. It was worse than not investigating .. she clearly had an angle ... an a false one at that.

Saoirse go Deo
01-11-2013, 03:34 PM
The title "Lethal Allies" suggests an equal relationship between the British State and loyalist paramilitaries, as does the phrase collusion. The reaction after Dublin and Monaghan evidence emerged was for the paramilitaries to step forward to take the rap (contrary to evidence). The reaction when still more evidence emerges is to say that it was "collusion." From what I've read about the events in the North and UK, and other British colonies, I am far from convinced that there was equality or collusion of equal partners. The British State has too much form globally.

I think that not only this book needs to be read, but the whole political context in Britain needs to be looked at, and the evidence that a "state within a state" was operating in Britain.


I think most peoples (mine certainly) understanding is that collusion is any act (or deliberate lack thereof) by the British state, or its forces, which aided and abetted loyalist paramilitaries.

Without collusion there would still have been sectarian murders, but they would not have been as prolific and deliberate and the perpetrators would have been stopped far sooner and would have been far less capable.

I don't think there was some godfather type figure in British intelligence setting up the UVF but rather the British policy was that the actions of loyalist murder gangs benefited them so they aided them via a variety of means including both positive acts and tolerating situations which benefited loyalist paramilitaries as well as occasionally guiding them through "double agents".

C. Flower
01-11-2013, 05:23 PM
"People are hungry for the truth" Not speculation or propoganda or assumptions, but for Hard facts" They want to understand what went on here doing the "The narrative that we have all got that it was Catholic against Protestant and I think this is beginning to show people that both parts of the community were being manipulated by authorities outside in London and Stormont that we didn't know anything about at the time "

"The British Government guards its secrets very carefully, we have only just begun to hear about what Britain did to the Mau Mau in Kenya who wanted land rights."

"They will resist to the bitter end I think because Ireland is so close to Britain and was Britain's first colony" Over 120 died in the 1970s with this one gang.

"Do you think there were other gangs" "Yes, I think it got worse in the 1980s - more controlled, more manipulated and more directed." "I think it went definitely to the Cabinet - mentions a famous meeting 1975 Harold Wilson, Margaret Thatcher, Airey Neave and Merlyn Rees.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05sigYFww2s

C. Flower
01-11-2013, 05:37 PM
I think most peoples (mine certainly) understanding is that collusion is any act (or deliberate lack thereof) by the British state, or its forces, which aided and abetted loyalist paramilitaries.

Without collusion there would still have been sectarian murders, but they would not have been as prolific and deliberate and the perpetrators would have been stopped far sooner and would have been far less capable.

I don't think there was some godfather type figure in British intelligence setting up the UVF but rather the British policy was that the actions of loyalist murder gangs benefited them so they aided them via a variety of means including both positive acts and tolerating situations which benefited loyalist paramilitaries as well as occasionally guiding them through "double agents".

Do you think the British State was ever involved in killing protestants ?

(Foundation of the UVF - Gusty Spence - ex army, - in a regiment that killed civilians in Cyprus - buried under his regimental flag - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusty_Spence )

You posted this short study on British Counter-gangs on another thread. I guess the two publications compliment each other. There is a lot of evidence that suggests that armed British plain clothes counter gangs acted deliberately to spark off sectarian killing. These gangs were not "rogue" in any way: they were the SAS in action.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/122560071/COUNTER-GANGS-A-history-of-undercover-military-units-in-Northern-Ireland-1971-1976

Dr. FIVE
08-11-2013, 04:01 AM
Susan McKay review

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/a-shameful-part-of-our-country-s-troubled-history-1.1578119

C. Flower
08-11-2013, 06:57 AM
I think most peoples (mine certainly) understanding is that collusion is any act (or deliberate lack thereof) by the British state, or its forces, which aided and abetted loyalist paramilitaries.

Without collusion there would still have been sectarian murders, but they would not have been as prolific and deliberate and the perpetrators would have been stopped far sooner and would have been far less capable.

I don't think there was some godfather type figure in British intelligence setting up the UVF but rather the British policy was that the actions of loyalist murder gangs benefited them so they aided them via a variety of means including both positive acts and tolerating situations which benefited loyalist paramilitaries as well as occasionally guiding them through "double agents".

I still disagree with this view which is pretty much also what Susan McKay says in her review of the book.

There seems to be a deep denial that the British State intended to stay in Ireland, had spent hundreds of years setting up sectarian division in Ireland, and set out to foment sectarian warfare and the appearance of it, using the mad dogs it had created in parts of the protestant community. What went on was far, far, more than collusion as you defined it. There was a strategy, there was direction by the British - photographs, lists of names, supply of nearly all the weaponry used was by the British State.

Much of this has been confirmed by British whistleblowers.

But people have so strongly bought into the feeling that the source of the problem was these mad and bad Protestants, not the string pullers behind the scene, that evidence washes over them.

In that sense, the British did their job successfully, because the intent was to wear opposition out in sectarian attritions, and to befoul the opposition to their continued presence in Ireland.

The other reason I think that the British are not called on this is that the PIRA was depoliticised and that people invested huge sacrifice in a military campaign that completely misconstrued and wrongly analysed British intentions and fought a campaign that played to a large extent into British hands, notwithstanding the bravery and sacrifice of many individuals involved.

Another big unanswered question was the extent to which collusion affected the heavily infiltrated IRA too, given the history re Stakeknife, Donaldson etc.

Saoirse go Deo
08-11-2013, 03:38 PM
So you think that if the Brits left them to it and gave no assistance whatsoever the likes of the UVF and other loyalists would not have carried out any sectarian murders?

C. Flower
08-11-2013, 04:14 PM
So you think that if the Brits left them to it and gave no assistance whatsoever the likes of the UVF and other loyalists would not have carried out any sectarian murders?

I'm not talking about the British State assisting the UVF and turning a blind eye to murders. I'm talking about British soldiers, covertly, but under orders, leading murder gangs. The UVF would not have existed without the British and would not have had the same access to arms.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/23535


SURVIVORS and families of the victims of the Miami Showband massacre in 1975 are to sue Britain’s Ministry of Defence and police authorities over the relationships between the British Army, the RUC and the unionist death squad killers.

At least four serving soldiers from the British Army’s Ulster Defence Regiment – also members of the illegal Ulster Volunteer Force – set up a checkpoint on a country road outside Newry on 31 July 1975 specifically to stop the Miami Showband after they’d played a gig in Banbridge.

Three members of the chart-topping group were gunned down after a bomb being placed in their tour minibus prematurely exploded, killing the two UDR soldiers carrying it, Harris Boyle and Wesley Somerville.

The intention had been for the bomb to explode later, framing the band as an IRA unit transporting a bomb or blaming the IRA for the killings.


Band members Tony Geraghty, Brian McCoy and Fran O’Toole were shot dead by the UDR/UVF while Stephen Travers was seriously wounded in the hail of gunfire. Stephen Travers said lead singer Fran O’Toole was shot 22 times in the face.


Des McAlea (also known as ‘Des Lee’) was injured in the explosion.


Two serving members of the Ulster Defence Regiment and one former soldier were found guilty of the murders and received life sentences.
A report by the Historical Enquiries Team (HET) into the Miami Showband Massacre found strong evidence of RUC collusion in the murders.
Notorious loyalist killer Robin ‘The Jackal’ Jackson, an RUC Special Branch agent as well as leader of the Mid-Ulster UVF, is said to have been linked to the attack by fingerprint evidence.
Jackson (now deceased) later said he had been tipped off by a senior RUC officer to ‘lie low’ after the Miami massacre.
The investigation into the attack by the HET found “disturbing evidence” of collusion between the RUC and the UVF leader in Mid-Ulster.?
Announcing the High Court legal action on 25 October against the Ministry of Defence and the police, solicitor Michael Flanigan said the legal actions are based “primarily on the fact that the Ministry of Defence is responsible in law for the actions of its soldiers” before adding:

“But it goes much further than that. Documents unearthed by the likes of Justice for the Forgotten and the Pat Finucane Centre show that the British Army knew there was a problem with loyalist subversion in the Ulster Defence Regiment for years before the attack on the Miami Showband and did nothing about it.
“The proceedings will also examine the role of Special Branch in vetting membership applications to the UDR and the use of agents such Robin Jackson.”

The case is expected to be heard next year

C. Flower
08-11-2013, 04:21 PM
Some context -


http://11sixtynine.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/britishoperativefrankkitson1.jpg?w=83 (http://11sixtynine.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/britishoperativefrankkitson1.jpg)THE KITSON EXPERIMENT…….
Review by Cathal McGivern of Roger Faligot’s (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Roger%20Faligot) 1983 book ‘Britain’s Military Strategy in Ireland : The Kitson Experiment’ (http://openlibrary.org/b/OL3092673M).
From ‘IRIS’ Magazine , 1983.
Within the British politico-military establishment , British Army General Frank Kitson pushed the view that the situation had developed to such a point that , in order to isolate the IRA , it would be necessary to take a number of immediate steps – initiate a fake peace movement (done!) (http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/may2006/haha_sinn_fein_2.jpg) , manipulate loyalist gangs and orchestrate a campaign of assassinations that would terrorise the population , and wage a massive psychological war , using the SAS and other ‘special’ units to discredit the IRA and, in the short term, to try and split them between left/right , ‘doves/hawks’ , North/South and military/political axes.
The programme was too ambitious however for the William Whitelaw regime (http://www.nndb.com/people/912/000164420/) who , apart from implementing the propaganda war and an invasion of the no-go areas to engage in control of populations , adopted a more traditional plan – direct rule , brutal repression , indiscriminate internment without trial and Bloody Sunday. (http://larkspirit.com/bloodysunday/photos/index.html)
In 1972 Frank Kitson had failed to convince his superiors of the need for a co-ordinated counter-insurgency ‘offensive’ , but some of his more brutal suggestions , like the assassination campaign against Catholics , were kept in mind . And , even though on April 22nd 1972 he was returned to Britain , gradually his ideas made headway in the North , so that- to quote Roger Faligot (http://www.speedylook.com/Roger_Faligot.html) - “From 1975 onwards , they were totally implemented and his theories reached the top circles in the British Army , research centres , lobbies and think-tanks with NATO , and the ruling classes within Europe , beginning with West Germany , where he continued his career.”


It appears to me that most of his strategy was implemented.

Saoirse go Deo
11-11-2013, 03:38 PM
I'm not talking about the British State assisting the UVF and turning a blind eye to murders. I'm talking about British soldiers, covertly, but under orders, leading murder gangs. The UVF would not have existed without the British and would not have had the same access to arms.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/23535

There was both I'm sure, but I would suspect there was a lot more "assisting the UVF and turning a blind eye to murders" than Brit soldiers under orders leading murder gangs. In a lot of cases they just had to give them weapons, information and turn a blind eye rather than instigate it and control the people involved from start to finish with their own men on the ground under direct orders carrying out murder. Either way it is equally condemnable.

C. Flower
13-11-2013, 07:39 AM
There was both I'm sure, but I would suspect there was a lot more "assisting the UVF and turning a blind eye to murders" than Brit soldiers under orders leading murder gangs. In a lot of cases they just had to give them weapons, information and turn a blind eye rather than instigate it and control the people involved from start to finish with their own men on the ground under direct orders carrying out murder. Either way it is equally condemnable.

The UDA was allegedly set up under direction of the British.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McGrath

The UVF was not just "assisted by the British" it was full of British operatives and took direction from M15/6. Spence had been in the British Army in Cyprus. The British both led and formed murder gangs, supplied them with arms and explosives, lists of names and photographs. The British killed both Catholics and Protestants. It isn't a question of morality, or who was worse, its about historic fact, and imperial power. The British used Ireland as a training ground for neo colonial counter insurgency, and transferred the lessons, and some of the personnel, to Iraq and Afghanistan. They trained the US covert forces in Afghanistan/Pakistan in bomb making.
They developed and used neo-colonial counter insurgency methods in Ireland - counter gangs, psyops, torture techniques, astro turfed social movements and infiltration of insurgent groups.

British insiders have written about the use of protracted low grade war for social control purposes. It can be used y the state power to camouflage all kinds of illegal operations and ultimately wears out populations to the point where they are prepared to accept anything that calls itself peace.

Peace of course comes with built in permanent sectarian political frameworks and "peace walls" to keep the population divided.






(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McGrath)

Dr. FIVE
14-11-2013, 02:20 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BY9yPsTCEAAJBGq.png:large

Dr. FIVE
14-11-2013, 02:30 AM
http://i.imgur.com/uGM0H6U.png

C. Flower
14-11-2013, 08:06 AM
All too busy watching "The Disappeared" ?

This thread has sent me back reading on the Dirty War. Depressing but enlightening to notice that for decades the head of IRA intelligence and the head of UDA intelligence were both run by the British

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Scappaticci

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Nelson_%28Northern_Irish_loyalist%29

Both were directly responsible for scores of murders under British direction and indirectly responsible for many more, but the bigger picture is surely that both organisations were in major respects controlled by the British.

Saoirse go Deo
14-11-2013, 03:26 PM
Details of how the British Army allegedly ran a secret undercover unit during the Troubles in the 1970s will be revealed in a Panorama programme to be shown on BBC One next Thursday.

The Military Reconnaissance/Reaction Force (MRF) had only existed for about 14 months when it was disbanded in 1972. At the time, senior army figures said the plain-clothed soldiers operated in Belfast for the purpose of ‘reconnaissance’ so they could keep an eye on what the IRA were doing.

http://www.thejournal.ie/panorama-british-secret-force-ira-1174843-Nov2013/

Sam Lord
14-11-2013, 04:31 PM
I have always been convinced that Miriam Daly, Ronnie Bunting and Noel Lyttle were directly killed by British forces (probably SAS) in revenge for the killing of Airey Neave.

An article dealing with this here:

http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu:81/jc711054g.html

Dr. FIVE
18-11-2013, 03:38 PM
Anne Cadwallader will be appearing on Vinb tonight

C. Flower
18-11-2013, 11:26 PM
On now.

Sam Lord
19-11-2013, 11:20 AM
This thread has sent me back reading on the Dirty War. Depressing but enlightening to notice that for decades the head of IRA intelligence and the head of UDA intelligence were both run by the British


Scappaticci was involved in internal security I'm don't think he was ever Director of Intelligence.

Within Internal Security he would have been under John Joe Magee ... who interestingly enough appears to have been a former member of the elite Royal Marines Unit, the Special Boat Services (a sort of floating SAS :))

C. Flower
19-11-2013, 11:40 AM
Scappaticci was involved in internal security I'm don't think he was ever Director of Intelligence.

Within Internal Security he would have been under John Joe Magee ... who interestingly enough appears to have been a former member of the elite Royal Marines Unit, the Special Boat Services (a sort of floating SAS http://www.politicalworld.org/images/smilies/smile.png)

Oh for ***** sake. There is nothing funny about that. It's ****** tragic.

Sam Lord
19-11-2013, 11:53 AM
Oh for ***** sake. There is nothing funny about that. It's ****** tragic.

Magee was almost certainly an agent.

Sam Lord
19-11-2013, 12:00 PM
It's astonishing that the composition of IRA internal security was not changed periodically given the crucial nature of it. The same people seemed to be there for years and years... and there was at least one other agent I have seen named apart from those two. If Internal Security was compromised then the whole army was compromised. It is astonishing that this did not click with anyone directing the army as they managed to get a great deal right.

C. Flower
19-11-2013, 02:41 PM
It's astonishing that the composition of IRA internal security was not changed periodically given the crucial nature of it. The same people seemed to be there for years and years... and there was at least one other agent I have seen named apart from those two. If Internal Security was compromised then the whole army was compromised. It is astonishing that this did not click with anyone directing the army as they managed to get a great deal right.

As I said, both IRA and UDA internal security was run by the British. The British were prepared to live with a low level of "war" as they are now across an increasing area of the planet.

Didn't the IRA operate with a cell structure ? There is always the possibility of things happening off the radar. But it also meant that people weren't getting an overview.

I can see how people not at the top might not have this "click" with them, as they would not have an overview.

Personally I find it incredible that it did not click with those at the top. In any event, appointing someone with an SAS background into that position, no matter how credible they might appear, was at very best insanely reckless.

C. Flower
20-11-2013, 11:57 PM
Billy Wright and the Special Branch.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/ruc-special-branch-knew-loyalist-killer-billy-wright-was-involved-in-roseann-mallon-murder-29771465.html

C. Flower
21-11-2013, 08:26 AM
The MRF "meant to be sort of IRA outlaws" Panorama tonight - it will of course to some extent dress these men up as "heroes"

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/elite-soldiers-like-terror-group-29772008.html

C. Flower
21-11-2013, 08:30 AM
From Palestine to Belfast Ciaran MacCairt

http://mcgurksbar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/From_Palestine_to_Belfast.pdf

C. Flower
21-11-2013, 10:28 AM
MRF man in interview being played now on Sean O'Rourke's programme said "we were told that we did officially not exist" "we were there to act like a terror group."

Ogiol
21-11-2013, 12:46 PM
I wonder how the Irish establishment will spin this.... Will FG and Labour come out justifying them or just go into ignore mode...

Dr. FIVE
21-11-2013, 01:10 PM
I wonder how the Irish establishment will spin this.... Will FG and Labour come out justifying them or just go into ignore mode...

terror on both sides!



MRF man in interview being played now on Sean O'Rourke's programme said "we were told that we did officially not exist" "we were there to act like a terror group."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03jprmx



In the early 1970s, the British Army ran a secret undercover unit. Its existence was deniable and its tactics were so controversial that the unit was disbanded after just 14 months. Now, for the first time in 40 years, some of the unit's former members break their silence and talk candidly to John Ware about how they took the war to the IRA, sometimes even imitating the IRA itself. The soldiers believe they saved many lives. But Panorama's new evidence reveals that some members of the unit operated outside the law, firing on and killing unarmed civilians. The Ministry of Defence says it has referred Panorama's allegations to the police

C. Flower
21-11-2013, 01:26 PM
terror on both sides!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03jprmx


They will be spun as heroes in the UK and there will be a barrage of reportage about IRA horrors here.

Interesting to see how many of the IRA horrors done by these people who say they were "meant to be "IRA outlaws""

C. Flower
21-11-2013, 01:27 PM
No mention as yet of their successors the FRU.

Saoirse go Deo
11-03-2014, 04:14 PM
Joe Tiernan did a pretty comprehensive investigation into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings several years ago. (I lent my copy to someone and never got it back :() I wonder if Cadwallander is just recycling this stuff or if there is genuinely new information in her book.

Picked up Joe Tiernan's book today in a second hand shop on a whim, glad to see it's recommended. He self published and sold the book door to door apparently because no book shop or publisher would touch it.

I never actually finished Cadwallader's book, I got distracted about half way through by other things. TBH I was finding it a hard book to read due to the content in particular the contributions by relations of the victims and harrowing descriptions of their mourning process. (not to mention the murders themselves)

Anyway from a glance at Tierney's some of the content seems quite similar - he deals with the murder triangle too but has more space dedicated to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings than Cadwallader - but perhaps he printed the names Cadwallader had to redact. She also had access to sources Tierney did not, such as the HET reports.

Eventually I'll read both and compare more thoroughly but they seem to complement each other quite well.

Saoirse go Deo
03-04-2014, 11:43 PM
Over 14,000 copies sold and the book is on its sixth run now. Not bad going

C. Flower
19-11-2015, 09:04 AM
Good article here from History Ireland on Brigadier Frank Kitson and on the evolution of British counter insurgency tactics world wide, including Ireland - techniques later passed on to the US.

http://www.historyireland.com/volume-22/frank-kitson-northern-ireland-british-way-counterinsurgency/