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C. Flower
01-07-2013, 10:27 PM
Millions of Egyptians are on the streets again today in Cairo and Alexandria, in what has been reported to be the biggest demonstration ever held on the planet, against the Presidency of Morsi, of the Muslim Brotherhood.

There is a smaller counter demonstration, pro Morsi, of millions, in Nasri City.

Egyptians are struggling under an IMF programme, with an undeveloped and dysfunctional economy.

The army has issued a statement giving Morsi 48 hours to step down.


• The armed forces repeat their call for the people's demands to be met and give everyone 48 hours as a last chance to shoulder the burden of the historic moment that is happening in the nation, which will not forgive or tolerate any party that is lax in shouldering its responsibility.
• The armed forces put everyone on notice that if the demands of the people are not realised in the given time period, it will be obliged by its patriotic and historic responsibilities and by its respect for the demands of the great Egyptian people to announce a road map for the future and the steps for overseeing its implementation, with participation of all patriotic and
sincere parties and movements - including the youth, who set off the glorious revolution and continue to do so - without excluding anyone.

(http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?7673-Egyptian-Elections-Declared-Candidates&p=251336&highlight=Egypt+Morsi#post251336)
Egyptian people have learned to take to the streets and use their weight of numbers to exert their choice, rather than rely on parliamentary elections. Morsi won the election, but with a minority of the vote, and has ignore repeatedly the message that he must respect the wider populations wishes.

Egypt is at an impasse, its economy not functioning, incomes at starvation levels, with collapsed services and a huge amount of corruption, with which people are exasperated.

The current establishment has no solutions and at this stage the opposition appears not to have definite alternative: the risk of a military junta is therefore high.

C. Flower
02-07-2013, 12:03 AM
US Generals talking to Egyptian Generals today -

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=OBR&date=20130701&id=16658616

toxic avenger
02-07-2013, 12:57 AM
What precisely is the protestors' beef, or is it a mish-mash of general discontents, economic and suchlike?

My first thought on this stuff was that democracy and the rule of law should be followed here, and army threats are not good.

toxic avenger
03-07-2013, 06:32 PM
There's an apparent coup underway against the democratically elected government.

Surprised there isn't more on this here..

fluffybiscuits
03-07-2013, 07:03 PM
There's an apparent coup underway against the democratically elected government.

Surprised there isn't more on this here..

Millions marching against a government, last time I checked that was also democratic? ;)

riposte
03-07-2013, 07:15 PM
Millions marching against a government, last time I checked that was also democratic? ;)

Last time I looked ...... that was NAZI Germany.

riposte
03-07-2013, 07:17 PM
Mohamed Mustafa ElBaradei ........ roving ambassador ...... for the CIA.

fluffybiscuits
03-07-2013, 07:18 PM
Last time I looked ...... that was NAZI Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution

What about the 1916 rising? THe British let us vote didnt they?

riposte
03-07-2013, 07:21 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution

What about the 1916 rising? THe British let us vote didnt they?

What are you talking about? ......... The Brits were foreign invaders ....... whose invading Egypt? ....... other than the CIA.

fluffybiscuits
03-07-2013, 07:25 PM
What are you talking about? ......... The Brits were foreign invaders ....... whose invading Egypt? ....... other than the CIA.


If people feel oppressed they will rise up. That is what happened in Ireland, any form of oppression whether it be imperialist, colonial or civil is fought against...Czech rep illustrates that

toxic avenger
03-07-2013, 07:26 PM
Millions marching against a government, last time I checked that was also democratic? ;)

Marching by crowds, fine. Overthrow of a democratically elected government by a military coup? Fascism.

riposte
03-07-2013, 07:33 PM
Marching by crowds, fine. Overthrow of a democratically elected government by a military coup? Fascism.

Ah yeah Toxic ....... but the passion for Democracy is malleable around here ...... and it must be approved via the "correct" ...... "group think."

fluffybiscuits
03-07-2013, 07:36 PM
Ah yeah Toxic ....... but the passion for Democracy is malleable around here ...... and it must be approved via the "correct" ...... "group think."

Group think? Like Republicanism?...

C. Flower
03-07-2013, 08:12 PM
Mohamed Mustafa ElBaradei ........ roving ambassador ...... for the CIA.

ElBaradei was flown in by the US in the middle of the spring 2010 events in Egypt, but could not get any support for his move to take the leadership then.

Count Bobulescu
03-07-2013, 08:15 PM
Newly available 30 page report on Egypt.


US-EGYPT RELATIONS, AND MORE FROM CRS

New and newly updated publications from the Congressional Research Service that Congress has withheld from online public access include the following.

Egypt: Background and U.S. Relations (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33003.pdf), updated June 27, 2013


Also, don't attack our embassy.


U.S. Marines in Europe Getting Ready for Egyptian Chaos

Some of the 500 Marines belonging to the Corps' Special-Purpose Marine Air-Ground Task Force Crisis Response Team have been moved from Moron, Spain to Sigonella, Italy to be closer to Egypt should things go very wrong there, Stars and Stripes reports this morning.

"The reason we are here is to provide a scalable force to respond to unexpected crisis," Maj. Zane Crawford, the task force's operations officer, said in a USMC release in May. "We can rapidly deploy to support missions, such as embassy reinforcement, tactical recovery of aircraft, and personnel and noncombatant evacuation operations."

Citing unnamed sources, CNN reported last week that the Marines have been told to be ready to be airborne in 60 minutes after deployment orders, but Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, wouldn't confirm, saying the military doesn't comment on specific readiness postures."

The U.S. Embassy in Cairo has been closed since Sunday.

DCon
03-07-2013, 08:17 PM
Marching by crowds, fine. Overthrow of a democratically elected government by a military coup? Fascism.

They have suspended the constitution too

PaddyJoe
03-07-2013, 08:18 PM
Live coverage from Al Jazeera there. Coup complete.
http://www.aljazeera.com/watch_now/

fluffybiscuits
03-07-2013, 08:20 PM
http://www.thejournal.ie/egypt-army-stages-coup-over-morsi-refusal-to-step-down-977335-Jul2013/

Morsi gone, opposition have met and tight schedule for elections...

C. Flower
03-07-2013, 08:23 PM
Tanks in the middle of Cairo and Morsi has been told to step down. It seems very likely the MB will fight, understandably, against a military coup.

The crowds that have been protesting over the last weeks have ranged from pro Mubarak people to the far left. There is an unholy pro-secularist alliance, and Morsi although clear winner in the elections, does not represent the majority of the population.

This is part of a much wider world crisis. The last 30 or more years of credit fuelled expansion is juddering into collapse and leaving a large middle class that has in most cases no perspective beyond an unachievable prosperous, uncorrupt and democratic capitalism. They have absolutely no solutions based in reality and no capacity to face down austerity. They are capable of utopian "occupations" one day, and ushering in a military coup the next.

The only way they would be involved in achieving real change would be to ally themselves with the working class and its organisations and remake society from top to bottom on a non-profit basis. The left itself has to some extent been sucked along in the wake of the middle class, in the west, and has abandoned its identity and purpose, social transformation, in favour of endless one-off projects and electoral delusions.

Dr. FIVE
03-07-2013, 08:27 PM
Am I right in thinking it's all counter revolution till these guys are shot


http://s24.postimg.org/8ycxje2s5/the_cut.jpg

PaddyJoe
03-07-2013, 08:27 PM
Baradei speaking now....there will be elections after a period during which the Constitution will be amended. Hmm.

TotalMayhem
03-07-2013, 08:33 PM
Move on, nothing to see here. The Yanks have been training Egypt officers for decades for good reason... to make sure nothing too exciting's gonna happen there, certainly no "much wider world crisis".

DCon
03-07-2013, 08:34 PM
Amazing timing

U S stock market closed early today and all day tomorrow

C. Flower
03-07-2013, 08:39 PM
The crowds in Brazil were of similar character.

Massive celebrations. Would not like to predict how long the happiness will last.

In Ireland the Catholic population celebrated the British army going in.

The Head of the Constitutional Court appointed interim President by the Armed Forces.

Another US backed coup.

The Left and radical youth organisations never accepted Morsi and the MB, and lacked the patience to work to build up support, and build organisations that could displace the MB without army involvement.

C. Flower
03-07-2013, 08:43 PM
Move on, nothing to see here. The Yanks have been training Egypt officers for decades for good reason... to make sure nothing too exciting's gonna happen there, certainly no "much wider world crisis".

Sorry, but, where is there "No crisis" ?

C. Flower
03-07-2013, 08:44 PM
Am I right in thinking it's all counter revolution till these guys are shot


http://s24.postimg.org/8ycxje2s5/the_cut.jpg

Until there is something to replace them with, after that.

DCon
03-07-2013, 08:46 PM
Until there is something to replace them with, after that.

Goldman Sachs must have someone in mind

DCon
03-07-2013, 08:49 PM
Seemingly it is not a coup

If it was a coup, the US could not legally give military aid

TotalMayhem
03-07-2013, 08:59 PM
if it was a coup, the US could not legally give military aid

The US and legally???

This planet you're from, how for from the sun we talking? ;)

PaddyJoe
03-07-2013, 09:01 PM
@EgyPresidency still tweeting.
https://twitter.com/EgyPresidency

C. Flower
03-07-2013, 09:06 PM
@EgyPresidency still tweeting.
https://twitter.com/EgyPresidency




https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/3055285749/1413bd9bf90eba4e9524f7ece6249397_normal.jpegEgypti an Presidency ‏@EgyPresidency (https://twitter.com/EgyPresidency) 29m (https://twitter.com/EgyPresidency/status/352510972046483459)
Pres. Morsy urges everyone to adhere to peacefulness and avoid shedding blood of fellow countrymen.

Egyptian Presidency ‏@EgyPresidency (https://twitter.com/EgyPresidency)32m (https://twitter.com/EgyPresidency/status/352510525436997632)
Pres. Morsy urges civilians and military members to uphold the law & the Constitution not to accept that coup which turns #Egypt (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Egypt&src=hash) backwards

riposte
03-07-2013, 10:11 PM
The US and legally???

This planet you're from, how for from the sun we talking? ;)

lol !!

riposte
03-07-2013, 10:15 PM
ElBaradei was flown in by the US in the middle of the spring 2010 events in Egypt, but could not get any support for his move to take the leadership then.

The CIA are like the Mounties ....... "they always get their man."

PaddyJoe
03-07-2013, 10:33 PM
The US and legally???

This planet you're from, how for from the sun we talking? ;)
Looks like Senator Patrick Leahy, head of the Budget Committee for the State Dept and Foreign Assitance, is going to review aid to Egypt.


Egypt’s military leaders say they have no intent or desire to govern, and I hope they make good on their promise. In the meantime, our law is clear: U.S. aid is cut off when a democratically elected government is deposed by military coup or decree. As we work on the new budget, my committee also will review future aid to the Egyptian government as we wait for a clearer picture. As the world’s oldest democracy, this is a time to reaffirm our commitment to the principle that transfers of power should be by the ballot, not by force of arms.”
http://www.leahy.senate.gov/press/_-comment-of-senator-patrick-leahy--d-vt-chairman-of-the-budget-committee-for-the-state-department-and-foreign-assistance--on-the-military-takeover-in-egypt----

Dr. FIVE
03-07-2013, 11:53 PM
Head of the Muslim Brotherhood's political party and the group's deputy chief have been arrested

C. Flower
04-07-2013, 08:28 AM
Three hundred MB people arrested - a round up. Rights being trashed.
Also, State TV (not exactly an anti-establishment body) closed down.

This has been what one reporter described as "a popular military coup." A majority of the millions who came onto the streets wanted Morsi to go, but they relied on the army to take control. Since 2010, the people have never fully abandoned the street as the place to act politically, but the mass of people have not yet confronted, or been confronted by, the armed forces, who stood back on the edge of Tahrir Square and whose conscripts reportedly refused to fire on the one occasion asked to. The army negotiated behind the scenes with the MB during the Tahrir events of 2010 and took a view not to attempt interference in the elections or their result. A confrontation between the army and tens of millions of people at that time did not have any certain outcome, and it is possible that the army would have split with some officers and many conscripts either refusing to fire or supporting the people. That remains the case. Where millions are prepared to come out, the army does not have it all their own way. If the army is to take full control, it would have to carry out a massacre and drive people off the streets. No guarantee that they would succeed. So in spite of the coup, there remains a balance of power for the time being between "the street" and the army, so long as people are ready to mobilise in millions.

The halting of US aid is not a positive move. I doubt it will be resumed for the benefit of any government it did not support.

The economy, which underlies all this, is worsening. The army most certainly has no answers, being a corrupt and parasitic body, closely aligned to the US.

The left opposition need to put the economy, and its solutions to the economy crisis, at the centre of their strategy.

DCon
04-07-2013, 08:38 AM
Three hundred MB people arrested - a round up. Rights being trashed.
Also, State TV (not exactly an anti-establishment body) closed down.

This has been what one reporter described as "a popular military coup." A majority of the millions who came onto the streets wanted Morsi to go, but they relied on the army to take control. Since 2010, the people have never fully abandoned the street as the place to act politically, but they have not yet confronted, or been confronted by, the armed forces, who stood back on the edge of Tahrir Square and whose conscripts reportedly refused to fire on the one occasion asked to. The army negotiated behind the scenes with the MB during the Tahrir events of 2010 and took a view not to attempt interference in the elections or their result. A confrontation between the army and tens of millions of people at that time did not have any certain outcome, and it is possible that the army would have split with some officers and many conscripts either refusing to fire or supporting the people. That remains the case. Where millions are prepared to come out, the army does not have it all their own way. If the army is to take full control, it would have to carry out a massacre and drive people off the streets. No guarantee that they would succeed. So in spite of the coup, there remains a balance of power for the time being between "the street" and the army, so long as people are ready to mobilise in millions.

The halting of US aid is not a positive move. I doubt it will be resumed for the benefit of any government it did not support.

The economy, which underlies all this, is worsening. The army most certainly has no answers, being a corrupt and parasitic body, closely aligned to the US.

The left opposition need to put the economy, and its solutions to the economy crisis, at the centre of their strategy.


I think the US aid was solely military aid (to buy US manufactured arms) so not much will be lost

C. Flower
04-07-2013, 08:43 AM
I think the US aid was solely military aid (to buy US manufactured arms) so not much will be lost

You are right. Arms and the "civil society" "democratisation" messing by the CIA -

http://egypt.usaid.gov/en/Pages/default.aspx

Richardbouvet
04-07-2013, 09:09 AM
So whom should we western liberals support? The elected but islamist Morsi or the secular but army-backed people of Cairo?

A similar choice may come about in Turkey soon.

C. Flower
04-07-2013, 10:10 AM
So whom should we western liberals support? The elected but islamist Morsi or the secular but army-backed people of Cairo?

A similar choice may come about in Turkey soon.

We should support neither, they are both complete dead ends.

riposte
04-07-2013, 10:33 AM
Democracy is Hypocrisy.

Richardbouvet
04-07-2013, 11:04 AM
OK, Riposte does not suport democracy at all, and PW thinks we should wash our hands of it.

riposte
04-07-2013, 11:08 AM
OK, Riposte does not suport democracy at all, and PW thinks we should wash our hands of it.

It would take a couple of oceans of water to wash your hands Richard.

C. Flower
04-07-2013, 11:15 AM
OK, Riposte does not suport democracy at all, and PW thinks we should wash our hands of it.

:)

I think that it was always a limited offer to the people of "advanced economies" who benefited from cheap raw materials extracted from places with no democracy at all.

At this stage of history, it clearly can't any longer exist in "advanced" capitalist economies, as the (extremely undemocratic) policies required to keep capitalism on life support are totally unacceptable to most people.

It is not me or Riposte who is anti-democracy. We are merely pointing out that it is not able to function any more.

Much of our democracy in Ireland has been annulled by passing decision making over to unaccountable bodies and by agreeing to various treaties with other states. In Ireland, the bank guarantee decision was made without calling the Dail into emergency session and the extent of the guarantee seems to have been decided in the absence of the Government.

What democracy ?

I'm in favour of a much more in depth and active democracy involving everyone in communal self government between elections, not just once every seven years.

Richardbouvet
04-07-2013, 12:00 PM
Riposte, your post is reported.

PW, yes, but my original question was not only about democracy, but on whose side we should be on in this instance. Even if both sides are severely flawed, one or other must be closer to what we would prefer.

fluffybiscuits
04-07-2013, 04:09 PM
We should support neither, they are both complete dead ends.

Great read on twitter of the situation. A democratic people make a decision to take down a democratic government in an undemocratic way. Its almost like a contradiction in terms.

PS Cass I know you have an interest in the situation, twitter is translating Arabic tweets into English as part of a new experiment. Your links and twitter contacts might give you a heads up on info :)

fluffybiscuits
04-07-2013, 04:10 PM
It would take a couple of oceans of water to wash your hands Richard.

Yer fierce bitchy for a bloke!! ;)

C. Flower
04-07-2013, 04:40 PM
Riposte, your post is reported.

PW, yes, but my original question was not only about democracy, but on whose side we should be on in this instance. Even if both sides are severely flawed, one or other must be closer to what we would prefer.

I don't agree that the alternatives are the Muslim Brotherhood and the army. There is an active left and a very strong trade union movement as well as neighbourhood councils that were set up in 2010. It is all to play for. I support the left - who must if they are do their job put forward a socialist economy and society as their main platform.

fluffybiscuits
04-07-2013, 04:51 PM
I don't agree that the alternatives are the Muslim Brotherhood and the army. There is an active left and a very strong trade union movement as well as neighbourhood councils that were set up in 2010. It is all to play for. I support the left - who must if they are do their job put forward a socialist economy and society as their main platform.

Should appeal in line with Islamic principles. Islam prevents profiting from investments, could be a selling point for the left (excuse the pun unintentional...)

riposte
04-07-2013, 06:16 PM
Yer fierce bitchy for a bloke!! ;)


Thanks!!

riposte
04-07-2013, 06:19 PM
I don't agree that the alternatives are the Muslim Brotherhood and the army. There is an active left and a very strong trade union movement as well as neighbourhood councils that were set up in 2010. It is all to play for. I support the left - who must if they are do their job put forward a socialist economy and society as their main platform.

Inshallah

Binn Beal
04-07-2013, 07:10 PM
Mary Wilson, on RTE's news programme, just referred to the 'seemingly' democratic election of Morsi. You heard it first on RTE. I suspect it won't be long before the new junta discovers evidence of voting fraud.

Meanwhile the army is awaiting orders from above to see if they have to hold another election to get the right result or just rule directly as usual.

If its to be another troublesome election, they will have their work cut out making El Baradi into the defender of democracy. Luckily they have the support of an easily led 'opposition' who will follow after anyone waving a flag.

I fear the infant democracy just got thrown out with the bathwater.

riposte
04-07-2013, 07:55 PM
Riposte, your post is reported.

.

For Gawd's sake Richard.... crack your make-up and smile.

Richardbouvet
04-07-2013, 07:57 PM
Riposte, I would like an apology for your abusive posting please.

My reporting it did no good. Cass and the other mods evidently don't give a **** what anyone says about each other on this board.

riposte
04-07-2013, 07:59 PM
Riposte, I would like an apology for your abusive posting please.

My reporting it did no good. Cass and the other mods evidently don't give a **** what anyone says about each other on this board.

Sorry!

Frankie Lee
04-07-2013, 08:52 PM
There are similarities of method with the 2002 coup attempt in Venezuela albeit the Muslim Brotherhood not being a progressive force.

morticia
04-07-2013, 09:50 PM
It would take a couple of oceans of water to wash your hands Richard.

Ball not man, guys.

Sam Lord
04-07-2013, 09:54 PM
So whom should we western liberals support? The elected but islamist Morsi or the secular but army-backed people of Cairo?

A similar choice may come about in Turkey soon.

I don't really care about western liberals but to my mind anyone in Egypt not opposing the coup is walking themselves into a disaster.

TotalMayhem
04-07-2013, 10:35 PM
There is an active left and a very strong trade union movement

LOL.. Who needs them when the officers of your armed forces have been trained by the oldest democracy in the world?

C. Flower
04-07-2013, 10:52 PM
I don't really care about western liberals but to my mind anyone in Egypt not opposing the coup is walking themselves into a disaster.

Not in favour of using NATO backed forces to achieve greater democracy ?

It is very dangerous, but in my opinion the greater danger is the lact of a credible programme by the left that can deliver jobs, services and food. The economy is falling apart, people can barely survive. The issues are food, housing, health and education, not bourgeois democratic rights. When capitalism fails, it is either socialism or if socialists do not make a move, and bring the working class into political power, then fascism will step in. The army has been there the whole time. There was huge resistance from the left to the tight schedule imposed for elections after Mubarak was put out, as it meant an electoral walk through for the MB, with no one else ready for elections. This coup is a shift towards fascism, but the working class has not been defeated as yet, and the army has up until now been very wary of taking on millions of people in the streets. It is still all to play for by the left, although no one should assume that they have all the time in the world.

Sam Lord
05-07-2013, 12:20 AM
Not in favour of using NATO backed forces to achieve greater democracy ?


Anyone who thinks that what has taken place in Egypt is enhancing democracy is seriously deluded.

C. Flower
05-07-2013, 12:45 AM
Anyone who thinks that what has taken place in Egypt is enhancing democracy is seriously deluded.

Anyone who thinks that NATO backed troops are acting to enhance democracy anywhere in the world today is seriously deluded.

But most of the commentary I read either does not understand the power of the millions of people on the streets, or is opposed to it. The vast majority of the population wanted Morsi out and is not interested in being told wait a few years for an election. They are now accustomed to go onto the streets for what they want. Of course the political role taken by the army, including the removal of Morsi and the arrests of MB members, should be opposed.

Binn Beal
05-07-2013, 08:35 AM
Gilmore has used the 'c' word and is now again out of step with the imperial powers. Bravo!
He should be supported in this as the agenda is now that it was not a coup but a taking-over-by-the-army-so-that-it-can-save-democracy-by-giving-it-back-to-a-more-suitable-democratic-leader-in-the-fullness-of-time.
The western agenda also makes much play of the crowds on the street which is estimated in (pick a number) of millions while ignoring those millions that put their x on the ballot papers. This is a dangerous game for the 'western countries' as most are elected by small fractions of their populations.
Should western oppositions now abandon the parliamentary model and organise to get large crowds on the street instead? This is what Obama, Merkel and Co are suggesting by their support of this coup.

Riposte, please man up (if that is your gender) and apologise for the gratuitous insult about blood on your hands to Richard B. Thank you.

riposte
05-07-2013, 09:20 AM
Sorry!


Ball not man, guys.

You didn't see the apology then morticia....:cool:

Binn Beal
05-07-2013, 09:27 AM
Now say three Hail Marys...

Binn Beal
05-07-2013, 09:28 AM
I suppose the military junta are only doing what the Irish government always do. Ask the people to vote and then if they get it wrong, get them to vote again.

riposte
05-07-2013, 09:40 AM
Now say three Hail Marys...

I don't want to go off topic guys ....... this a serious discussion on a subject that I'm keenly interested in ..... but if I make an occasional cynical joke .... surely that's better than getting into a hot-tempered flare-up with fellow members about matters outside our control....... Can members (and Mods) not come on here with some occasional humour and discuss issues without losing the cool....... and reaching for the report button to jettison their stress.

Sam Lord
05-07-2013, 10:38 AM
Anyone who thinks that NATO backed troops are acting to enhance democracy anywhere in the world today is seriously deluded.



Who thinks that? I have reread the thread and have not seen anyone articulate that view. Tbh, I cannot understand anything you are posting on this topic. You seem to be having an argument with yourself the logical coherence of which is avoiding everyone else.

C. Flower
05-07-2013, 10:45 AM
Gilmore has used the 'c' word and is now again out of step with the imperial powers. Bravo!
He should be supported in this as the agenda is now that it was not a coup but a taking-over-by-the-army-so-that-it-can-save-democracy-by-giving-it-back-to-a-more-suitable-democratic-leader-in-the-fullness-of-time.
The western agenda also makes much play of the crowds on the street which is estimated in (pick a number) of millions while ignoring those millions that put their x on the ballot papers. This is a dangerous game for the 'western countries' as most are elected by small fractions of their populations.
Should western oppositions now abandon the parliamentary model and organise to get large crowds on the street instead? This is what Obama, Merkel and Co are suggesting by their support of this coup.


There have been a string of "colour revolutions" in the last thirty years in which middle class crowd power has been used to bump in a US sponsored neo-liberal puppet. No doubt this kind of outcome is what Hilary Clinton meant by "transition." As yet, the outcome in Egypt is uncertain, and the millions are exerting their power on the streets to influence that outcome. No one in any media reports I've read have disputed that right across Egypt many millions came out to ask Morsi to go - far more than protested in favour of Morsi.
Morsi got 53% of the vote in elections that were considered rushed by all parties other than the well-got MB - also a political grouping backed by the US.

I don't think much of the state of western parliamentary democracy. When push came to shove in Ireland, it was overidden by dictat of Lenihan and Cowen who put us into hock to their banker and developer friends, and to the benefit of the US multinationals with deposited profits in Ireland - they presented the Dail with a fait accompli on the Guarantee. They have also handed over sovereignty to the EU to a large degree. Just because they didn't roll up to the Dail in a tank doesn't make it less of a coup.

C. Flower
05-07-2013, 10:49 AM
Who thinks that? I have reread the thread and have not seen anyone articulate that view. Tbh, I cannot understand anything you are posting on this topic. You seem to be having an argument with yourself the logical coherence of which is avoiding everyone else.

What is not to understand about saying that the situation in Egypt is a balance of power between military and the masses in the street ? - the outcome could be massacre and dictatorship, hand back to another parliamentary process, or the left (not likely as it has forgotten what a revolution is ) could push for a workers' socialist state.

DCon
05-07-2013, 11:54 AM
CNBC interviewing an Egyptian banker who thinks that the head of the Egyptian Central bank should govern the country.

C. Flower
05-07-2013, 11:59 AM
Just thinking about the spectacle of the coup - the helicopters with flags, thousands of lazers, fireworks - genuine local expression, or carefully stage managed from a distance ?
One such piece of spectacle on the day that the 2010 Tahrir Square occupation ended was hundreds of shiny young people with brand new sweeping brushes parading around the place doing a little light sweeping. The place had been kept clean anyway, by the occupiers, so it was not a practical necessity. I think they were either MB, or students from the American University in Cairo, or a mix of both - but the day was carefully stage managed, and this was one part of it.

This does not take away the credibility of millions of people protesting, but I would like to hear from anyone who can give any local knowledge on this.

DCon
05-07-2013, 12:12 PM
Just thinking about the spectacle of the coup - the helicopters with flags, thousands of lazers, fireworks.

Beautifully co-ordinated.

America and Egypt now share an "Independence day"

Binn Beal
05-07-2013, 12:36 PM
The choice is democracy or not-democracy. Millions on the street is a very poor gauge of public opinion (Hitler, Kim Jong Il and many, many others have been able to achieve that). It's millions on the ballot paper that counts.

The Soviet Union and the other countries that tried to set up a new society all failed because they just couldn't square the circle of central economic control and democracy.

If someone has an alternative system to offer, it would be good to discuss it here.

Dr. FIVE
06-07-2013, 04:49 AM
Washington, D.C. – Today, U.S. Rep. Ed Royce (R-CA), Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, issued the following statement on the removal of Mohamed Morsi as Egypt’s president:

http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/press-release/chairman-royce-statement-removal-mohamed-morsi-egypt%E2%80%99s-president



“It is unfortunate that Morsi did not heed popular demands for early elections after a year of his incompetent leadership and attempting a power grab for the Muslim Brotherhood. Morsi was an obstacle to the constitutional democracy most Egyptians wanted. I am hopeful that his departure will reopen the path to a better future for Egypt, and I encourage the military and all political parties to cooperate in the peaceful establishment of democratic institutions and new elections that lead to an Egypt where minority rights are protected. But make no mistake about it, Egypt is in for very difficult days.”


.....

C. Flower
06-07-2013, 12:19 PM
The choice is democracy or not-democracy. Millions on the street is a very poor gauge of public opinion (Hitler, Kim Jong Il and many, many others have been able to achieve that). It's millions on the ballot paper that counts.

The Soviet Union and the other countries that tried to set up a new society all failed because they just couldn't square the circle of central economic control and democracy.

If someone has an alternative system to offer, it would be good to discuss it here.


I suppose the military junta are only doing what the Irish government always do. Ask the people to vote and then if they get it wrong, get them to vote again.

I oppose totally the support of political groups for the military's removal of Morsi. First the go for Morsi, then who next ? It is very dangerous, and as I said earlier, a step towards fascism.

But I also oppose the US view point that what the situation demands is imposing some kind of quasi western bourgeois democracy. It is a fiction - that ends with the usual US friendly dictatorship or corrupt "parliamentary" regime that survives with the help of heavily armoured riot police squads. Liberal parliamentary democracy has only ever emerged in historicl periods and places
where there were functioning capitalist economies able to support a prosperous middle class. As the capitalist economy has mushroomed at this stage into a flat-lining blundering giant, one failed bubble after another, and with displacement of manufacture from west to east, the western - and middle eastern - states are going into a protracted economic and political crisis.

The reason most Egyptians are out on the streets is far more to do with the collapse of the Egyptian economy than it is Morsi vs democracy and it is the inability of the MN government to do anything about it that led to them being ousted. It is not that different to the situation in Brazil, with an angry and disappointed middle class taking to the streets over lousy education and health services, or to the masses of people who have come out over austerity in the EU.

The military should be opposed. A new kind of economy, that is fair, rational and sustainable, and a new kind of democracy, that involves active political participation by everyone, is needed.

Dr. FIVE
06-07-2013, 06:53 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOgYIqKCIAEYQ8x.jpg

rebellin
06-07-2013, 11:10 PM
News reports: Former Director of the IAEA, Mohamed ElBaradei, named interim Prime Minister of Egypt.

TotalMayhem
06-07-2013, 11:28 PM
A Nobel Peace Prize laureate, all is well then.

Binn Beal
07-07-2013, 09:45 AM
Did the [choose number] million people on the streets 'name' him as Prime Minister?

C. Flower
07-07-2013, 02:38 PM
News reports: Former Director of the IAEA, Mohamed ElBaradei, named interim Prime Minister of Egypt.

As of the latest, unnamed and not accepted.

C. Flower
08-07-2013, 10:06 AM
Reports of dozens of MB and Morsi supporters killed by the army at about 3.30 a.m. "attempting to rescue Morsi"

Anyone who is a "revolutionary" would be out now demanding Morsi's release and demanding that the army ceases any intervention in politics, armed or otherwise.

Binn Beal
08-07-2013, 10:27 AM
First they came for the Muslim Brotherhood and we did nothing...
When the football stadiums are full of 'terrorists' and 'dissidents', I wonder will the people who called for the abolition of democracy realise they have made a mistake.

C. Flower
08-07-2013, 10:33 AM
First they came for the Muslim Brotherhood and we did nothing...
When the football stadiums are full of 'terrorists' and 'dissidents', I wonder will the people who called for the abolition of democracy realise they have made a mistake.

Who are these "people" ?

riposte
08-07-2013, 11:01 AM
Who are these "people" ?

The people who cheered when the army ousted Morsi...... Democracy is Hypocrisy. ......Sharia Abu.

C. Flower
08-07-2013, 11:29 AM
The people who cheered when the army ousted Morsi...... Democracy is Hypocrisy. ......Sharia Abu.

The army was happy enough to see the MB get into power. I'm not sure what your point is.

Binn Beal
08-07-2013, 11:40 AM
Tamarod, the pro-coup organisation, has called on the 'people' not to protest at the US embassy.

C. Flower
08-07-2013, 12:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVWzYLSdFOo&feature=youtu.be


(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVWzYLSdFOo&feature=youtu.be)

C. Flower
08-07-2013, 12:49 PM
Two claimed eyewitness tweetstreams say that the MB was teargassed after prayers 3.30 this a.m. (protesting Morsi arrest) and the MB replied with birdshot, and all hell broke loose with firing of birdshot on MB side, guns on army. There are conflicting reports about whether or not children were killed, with some tweets saying they are recycled photos from Syria. Google image search can be used to date check.

http://storify.com/Assemism/two-testimonies-on-muslim-brotherhood-vs-moi-army?awesm=sfy.co_cMVM&utm_source=t.co&utm_content=storify-pingback&utm_medium=sfy.co-twitter&utm_campaign=

There is a very high level of tension, and anxiety, and not much sympathy for MB.

C. Flower
08-07-2013, 10:28 PM
A graph showing why Egypt is in such deep political crisis -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/07/egypt-growth.png

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/08/this-graph-shows-why-egypt-is-falling-apart/?tid=pm_business_pop (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/08/this-graph-shows-why-egypt-is-falling-apart/?tid=pm_business_pop)

10% unemployment and 25% youth unemployment before the 2011 rising against Mubarak. Since then, tourism, 10% of the economy has been severely hit.

The economy is growing, but the working age population is growing much faster.

Sarah Carr is a quiet but informative, interesting blogger who has posted regularly from Egypt for the last three years -
good observation -

http://inanities.org/

Sam Lord
08-07-2013, 10:36 PM
Saw the sociopath Blair on the TV earlier asserting that the coup was not really a coup because many people had been protesting and the country had stopped functioning. He had no comment, however, on the effect on the effect of the coup on the functioning of the country.

Asked if Morsi should be released he said he wasn't familiar with the reasons for his arrest !

According to Tony the important thing now is to work for a return to democracy. In Tony's world it is Ok to support the military overthrow of an elected government and stress the importance of democracy at the same time.

The interviewer never asked him what would happen if democracy was restored amd the MB won the elections again.

Count Bobulescu
08-07-2013, 11:07 PM
OBAMA SAYS HE DOES NOT BACK ANY PARTY IN EGYPT. Days after Mohammed Morsi was ousted as the president of Egypt, President Obama is maintaining that the U.S. is not backing any specific party in Egypt, nor is it influencing the internal politics of the country. "The United States categorically rejects the false claims propagated by some in Egypt that we are working with specific political parties or movements to dictate how Egypt's transition should proceed," the White House said in a statement over the weekend. Read more (http://nationaljournal.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=acc30b544fa4aa185af803703&id=f5acbcb175&e=c7a7983233)

C. Flower
08-07-2013, 11:23 PM
OBAMA SAYS HE DOES NOT BACK ANY PARTY IN EGYPT. Days after Mohammed Morsi was ousted as the president of Egypt, President Obama is maintaining that the U.S. is not backing any specific party in Egypt, nor is it influencing the internal politics of the country. "The United States categorically rejects the false claims propagated by some in Egypt that we are working with specific political parties or movements to dictate how Egypt's transition should proceed," the White House said in a statement over the weekend. Read more (http://nationaljournal.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=acc30b544fa4aa185af803703&id=f5acbcb175&e=c7a7983233)

"CIA News" supported the ousting of Morsi.

They have also *surprise suprise* discovered the Cairo branch of that well known franchise " Al Qaeda" - as ubiquitous as Macdonalds.

http://www.cia-news.com/morsi-staged-thousands-of-armed-al-gamaa-al-islamiyya-supporters-around-tahrir-square-and-within-the-crowd/

Count Bobulescu
08-07-2013, 11:52 PM
"CIA News" supported the ousting of Morsi.

They have also *surprise suprise* discovered the Cairo branch of that well known franchise " Al Qaeda" - as ubiquitous as Macdonalds.

http://www.cia-news.com/morsi-staged-thousands-of-armed-al-gamaa-al-islamiyya-supporters-around-tahrir-square-and-within-the-crowd/

Are you drawing some linkage between cia-news, and the Central Intelligence Agency?

C. Flower
08-07-2013, 11:58 PM
Are you drawing some linkage between cia-news, and the Central Intelligence Agency?

I was drawing attention to the loopy paranoia of some sections of the blogosphere.

C. Flower
21-07-2013, 06:10 PM
Large pro-Morsi anti-Coup demonstrations are continuing and the numbers involved are reported as being much bigger than pro-Coup. Several thousand women are protesting today in Cairo.

C. Flower
21-07-2013, 06:13 PM
OBAMA SAYS HE DOES NOT BACK ANY PARTY IN EGYPT. Days after Mohammed Morsi was ousted as the president of Egypt, President Obama is maintaining that the U.S. is not backing any specific party in Egypt, nor is it influencing the internal politics of the country. "The United States categorically rejects the false claims propagated by some in Egypt that we are working with specific political parties or movements to dictate how Egypt's transition should proceed," the White House said in a statement over the weekend. Read more (http://nationaljournal.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=acc30b544fa4aa185af803703&id=f5acbcb175&e=c7a7983233)

That must rank along with the biggest load of bunkum ever to come out of a politician's mouth.

During the end days of Mubarak's rule, the CIA was giving a constant flow of directions. Before the rising, communications between US intelligence and the military regime, as revealed by Wikileaks, were only twice daily.

C. Flower
24-07-2013, 09:39 PM
The Egyptian Armed forces calling for mass support for what threatens to be violent suppression of the Moslem Brotherhood.

No mistake whatever about it, this is fascism in action: Mubarak on turbo.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/24/egypt-army-chief-support-citizens

Binn Beal
24-07-2013, 10:10 PM
What are the Tamarod people saying. After all, there would have been no coup without their support.

C. Flower
24-07-2013, 10:20 PM
What are the Tamarod people saying. After all, there would have been no coup without their support.

Well, along with the other groups - they are supporting the rallies on Friday

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/tamarod-urges-egyptians-support-army-friday

El Baradei supporter, so presumably US backed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Badr

Mick Tully
24-07-2013, 10:24 PM
Saw the sociopath Blair on the TV earlier asserting that the coup was not really a coup because many people had been protesting and the country had stopped functioning. He had no comment, however, on the effect on the effect of the coup on the functioning of the country.

Asked if Morsi should be released he said he wasn't familiar with the reasons for his arrest !

According to Tony the important thing now is to work for a return to democracy. In Tony's world it is Ok to support the military overthrow of an elected government and stress the importance of democracy at the same time.

The interviewer never asked him what would happen if democracy was restored amd the MB won the elections again.

It shows you the contempt the west threats the Middle East, with the appointment of that Pr1ck, a disgusting individual.

C. Flower
25-07-2013, 10:36 AM
It shows you the contempt the west threats the Middle East, with the appointment of that Pr1ck, a disgusting individual.

+ 1

He was greeted with contempt in some quarters


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcTtps5WEKw

Binn Beal
26-07-2013, 01:57 PM
That army call for demonstrations is nothing short of a call for a pogram against the Muslim Brotherhood. Tonight may be Egypt's Krystalnacht.

Meanwhile Morsi has been accused of 'arson, destruction of prison records and "collaboration with Hamas to undertake aggressive acts in the country, attacking police facilities, officers and soldiers".
It also accused him of "killing some prisoners, officers and soldiers deliberately and with prior intent".
It added the accusation of "kidnapping some officers and soldiers".
The prosecutor has issued a gag order stipulating the media may only publish his statements on the case, citing the secrecy of the investigations and national security - RTE website today.

Looks like he may get away with the JFK assassination.

C. Flower
27-07-2013, 01:52 PM
After Mubarak fell, much of the Eygptian Left, instead of putting forward a socialist programme for the economy and society and campaigning for it, focused on "democractic rights" and the constitution. Sections of them, including those connected with the SWP, boycotted the campaign and instead fought the police in endless pointless set piece confrontations. When the Moslem Brotherhood was elected, they took an ultra left approach that the Morsi government was a dictatorship. This opened the door to the move by the army to shut down the elected government. There is at present no solid mass organisation that is class conscious and resists fascism. It is not much different in Greece, where the left has made no effective opposition to the growth of Golden Dawn.

It is to be expected that the liberal bourgeoisie and big sections of the middle class will go along with fascism, but in the 1930s, there were mass workers organisations capable of opposing it.

Decades of credit driven boom, followed by crash, and the shift of manufacturing east, has left the West and parts of the middle east ripe for fascism. It is a very serious and dangerous situation.

Binn Beal
27-07-2013, 05:01 PM
The trigger-happy colonels are only waiting for the nod (from Washington) to open fire. We'll have round-ups, internment camps and the rest of it shortly. And then those who turned on democracy will have plenty of time to contemplate how they were turned into jackasses.

C. Flower
28-07-2013, 12:31 PM
The trigger-happy colonels are only waiting for the nod (from Washington) to open fire. We'll have round-ups, internment camps and the rest of it shortly. And then those who turned on democracy will have plenty of time to contemplate how they were turned into jackasses.

Well, it was the middle class "democrats" in Egypt who turned on democracy - justifying the overthrow of the MB and the new Constitution on the grounds that the MB were running a dictatorial regime. From right to left, they lined up with the army. Even most of the leftists only managed to protest against both the MB and the Army yesterday, not defending the democratic rights of the MB.

A good analysis here from 2011, on how these sections of the population defended the post Mubarak military regime, and how much of the left in Egypt has spread illusions about the role of the army. The US is calling for "transition to democracy" now, as they always have, but that is a smokescreen behind which they support military dictatorship. And if it keeps the shops open, so do the Egyptian middle classes. There is no one there who is in reality defending, or going to defend, democracy. The only alternative is for the working class to organise itself to take over and bring about socialism: that will require defeating and breaking up the Egyptian army.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/11/egyp-n21.html

Some where between 80 and 150 people shot dead yesterday by the army in a planned massacre by snipers and masked operatives mingled with the police.

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 10:56 AM
A massacre going on this morning in Egypt - army overrunning a MB sit in with machine gun fire. Perhaps 200 reported dead at this stage.

Alistair Beach, reliable long time Cairo stringer and tweeter is tweeting a stream of reports and photos.

https://twitter.com/Alastair_Beach

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 11:06 AM
Twitter has decided to stop my tweets and retweets at this stage.

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 11:12 AM
The Socialist Party in South Africa would do well to look at this.

Binn Beal
14-08-2013, 11:29 AM
Before: Military rule, with US backing, no democracy, Muslim Brotherhood outlawed, Gaza blockaded.
After: Military rule, with US backing, no democracy, Muslim Brotherhood outlawed, Gaza blockaded.

toxic avenger
14-08-2013, 01:11 PM
Someone from the Muslim Brotherhood on the news at the moment claiming the number of dead is in the thousands, not the hundreds. Others saying 300 dead.

The West are calling for 'restraint on all sides', but this seems pretty one-sided to me. The prevarication by the US and others over whether to call what happened in Egypt a military coup or not would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

This is very bad, and I sense the beginnings of a civil war.

toxic avenger
14-08-2013, 02:01 PM
Sky News now announcing that their cameraman has been shot dead in Egypt this morning. Presenter seems to be on verge of tears - they all knew him well.

toxic avenger
14-08-2013, 02:03 PM
The newsreader Kay Burley is trying to read the headlines and stop herself crying as she does so.

Holly
14-08-2013, 02:04 PM
The answer to this thread's question can be answered; Egypt is now a military dictatorship, a junta.

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 02:09 PM
Am I right in thinking it's all counter revolution till these guys are shot





These guys.

http://dam.alarabiya.net/images/3fca5ca3-53fd-4bce-870e-fd080bcf6575/600/338/1?x=0&y=0

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 02:11 PM
Someone from the Muslim Brotherhood on the news at the moment claiming the number of dead is in the thousands, not the hundreds. Others saying 300 dead.

The West are calling for 'restraint on all sides', but this seems pretty one-sided to me. The prevarication by the US and others over whether to call what happened in Egypt a military coup or not would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

This is very bad, and I sense the beginnings of a civil war.

There has been an immediate push to incite church burnings and inter-sectarian violence - pretty much what the government was doing before Mubarak was deposed.

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 02:12 PM
Sky News now announcing that their cameraman has been shot dead in Egypt this morning. Presenter seems to be on verge of tears - they all knew him well.


Mick Deane

http://news.sky.com/story/1128530/sky-news-cameraman-killed-in-egypt

I would not think that any journalist covering this is safe.

toxic avenger
14-08-2013, 02:13 PM
Several international journalists have been attacked and threatened, apparently more than one killed, another one had his film confiscated.

Other cities have experienced a violent backlash by Morsi supporters, in one a Coptic church has been attacked. AFP are saying the death toll is currently at 140-odd, while one field hospital is claiming several thousand have been injured. The Egyptian health ministry are saying 56 dead. Some claims that women and children have been burnt alive in tents, and there are certainly women and children among the dead according to journalists.

Could Egypt go the way of Syria?

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 02:18 PM
Habiba Elaziz of XPress has been shot dead by the Egyptian army.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRn9fkLCMAAEu7R.jpg:large

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 02:21 PM
نشرة القاهرة‎ (http://twitter.com/cairowire) retweeted

6m (https://twitter.com/SameralAtrush/status/367634870433886208)
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1900908105/ostrich-head-in-sand_normal.jpg
Samer Al-Atrush @SameralAtrush
(http://twitter.com/SameralAtrush)I counted 124 bodies in Rabaa. Most in field morgue (hall 1) rest in Rabaa hospital proper, bottom floor and 3rd floor

Joe Duffy has an Irish woman caller who lives in Egypt 100% behind the massacre and against deposing the MB, mainly on grounds of the economic crisis.

"The economy has been stagnant for two years"

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 02:23 PM
Reuters-endorsed blog giving regular updates and reports.

http://en.aswatmasriya.com/news/view.aspx?id=e702ab94-763c-4540-afad-8e27daeb48ff

toxic avenger
14-08-2013, 02:37 PM
Machine guns being used and snipers firing from rooftops into the crowd, says Sky correspondent there.

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 05:02 PM
From earlier today, Mike Giglio describes how he and other journalists were beaten and arrested by police thugs and the army when trying to cover the assault on the sit in at Rabaa.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/14/egypt-s-government-thugs-beat-me-up-at-the-rabaa-sit-in.html

Protestors have been joining and leaving Rabaa, and setting up new camps, all day. A one month state of emergency has been declared and there are pictures

The usual tweeters have lapped up the diversion into discussion of alleged retaliatory church burning by MB supporters - it is to early even to know who was behind that.

C. Flower
14-08-2013, 05:10 PM
El Baradei has resigned over the massacre.

A bit late after having given credibility to the military takeover.

C. Flower
15-08-2013, 10:05 AM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/13/children-swarm-cairo-s-rabaa-sit-in.html

This article is from Monday, by Mike Giglio, about the families with children at Rabaa at the sit in.

There were some children - not a lot - in Tahrir Square in 2011. Some of them were very political, and wanted to be there. Some were too small to know. It is nothing to do with "human shields" or "using children" - there is some explanation from parents in the article.

Binn Beal
15-08-2013, 10:23 AM
This coup is very similar to the takeover of Chile by Pinochet. An army, backed by the US, deposes an elected government and then brutally suppresses its supporters, while 'democratic' governments dither for a time and then accept the status quo. We are now entering the repression stage which will entail mass imprisonment and exile. The most sickening thing about it will be the apologists with the 'the economy was suffering' and 'democracy wasn't all that democratic as the wrong people were elected' line.

C. Flower
15-08-2013, 11:37 AM
This coup is very similar to the takeover of Chile by Pinochet. An army, backed by the US, deposes an elected government and then brutally suppresses its supporters, while 'democratic' governments dither for a time and then accept the status quo. We are now entering the repression stage which will entail mass imprisonment and exile. The most sickening thing about it will be the apologists with the 'the economy was suffering' and 'democracy wasn't all that democratic as the wrong people were elected' line.

In some essential ways. But in Chile the left did not support the coup.

69% of Egyptians - according to this Poll - oppose the coup. It is shameful to see that while 55% of those who said they supported it were Mubarak supporters, there is a 6% Leftist bloc (according to this poll) that supports the coup. This may still include the SWP. This bloc boycotted the elections and left off political campaigning in favour of fruitless headbattering in the streets against the police. It took the ultra left line that Morsi and the MB were undemocratic/fascist. A number of articles published in the last while have said that the MB aligned to fascism in its early history. However, as I've said on threads here, the MB is a party not that dissimilar (in the Egyptian context) to FF or FG in the Irish - religion, nationalism and popularism promoted by a middle class/business grouping.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/6850-study-shows-opposition-to-morsi-ouster-rises-to-69

The fact that such a conservative government as the MB, not generally opposed by the US, was brought down, comes directly out of the economic crisis and of the outrageous betrayal and idiocy of the "Revolutionary Left". Ignoring the economic crisis, and failing to bring forward a revolutionary economic programme, as much of the Egyptian left did, was a critical mistake that left people with no way forward, leaving the initiative in the hands of Mubarak's supporters/ the army.

C. Flower
15-08-2013, 11:46 AM
The fundamental lessons of Leon Trotsky’s Theory of Permanent Revolution find bloody vindication in the latest slaughter in Cairo. The struggle for democracy can be carried out only in a ruthless struggle against imperialism, all sections of the capitalist class, and their political accomplices in the middle class. The task of fighting for democratic rights falls to theworking class, as part of an independent revolutionary struggle for socialism and workers’ power.

Over the two years of mass strikes and protests by workers and youth since the ouster of Mubarak in 2011, the liberal bourgeoisie and sections of the affluent middle class closest to it have shifted openly into the camp of counterrevolution. In the absence of a socialist leadership within the working class, they ultilized the growing strike movement and popular protests against Mursi to their own advantage.
While a group of Egyptian billionaires and multimillionaires provided finance and pulled the strings behind the scenes, the necessary political conditions for the planned coup were created by a reactionary coalition of liberal, Nasserite, and pseudo-left parties and organizations, which provided the military with the needed “democratic” cover.



Yesterday’s bloody events do not signify the end of the revolution, but its baptism under fire as the different political forces reveal their class loyalties ever more openly. The working class did not participate in mass protests against Mursi in order to bring the military satraps of the Mubarak dictatorship back to power. As the military seeks to extend its repression of the MB into a generalized onslaught against the working class, it will encounter implacable resistance.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/08/15/egyp-a15.html



A"Left" apology for the coup.

http://workerscompass.org/a-path-forward-for-egypts-revolution/ (http://workerscompass.org/a-path-forward-for-egypts-revolution/)

The term "pseudo left" is apt. We have groups here who also promote a broad left coalition with anyone and everyone, anti-tax campaigns and all kinds of nonsense that have nothing to do with socialism.

I've read of some left individuals in Egypt who joined the protests against the coup, but have not yet come across any Egyptian left organisation that does so.

Binn Beal
15-08-2013, 04:08 PM
We have groups here who also promote a broad left coalition with anyone and everyone, anti-tax campaigns and all kinds of nonsense that have nothing to do with socialism.
That was a very good analysis CF until you let your anger at the Socialist Party in Ireland cloud your thinking.

Broad consensus of all pro-democratic (whether socialist or not) forces is what is needed to combat the rise of authoritarianism in Egypt or Ireland. Personally, I wouldn't hold out much hope from those who regard themselves as followers of Leon Trotsky, as evidenced by their opposition to the abortion bill in Ireland and their shameful position in Egypt. But then, they are being true to their class and, as wise Mr Marx pointed out, that's a better indicator of interest than what they say.

riposte
15-08-2013, 06:12 PM
Democracy is Hypocrisy ......... Arab Spring ........my arse.

Shaadi
15-08-2013, 06:26 PM
Democracy is Hypocrisy ......... Arab Spring ........my arse.The West's Hypocrisy knows no bounds. It is a very sick puppy and its collective masses lack of ability or will to control its own military-industrial machine is to blame, entirely, dumb animals grazing on sugar and propaganda.

Binn Beal
15-08-2013, 07:29 PM
Democracy is Hypocrisy ......... Arab Spring ........my arse.
I'll see your arse and raise you an elbow.

C. Flower
15-08-2013, 09:45 PM
That was a very good analysis CF until you let your anger at the Socialist Party in Ireland cloud your thinking.

Broad consensus of all pro-democratic (whether socialist or not) forces is what is needed to combat the rise of authoritarianism in Egypt or Ireland. Personally, I wouldn't hold out much hope from those who regard themselves as followers of Leon Trotsky, as evidenced by their opposition to the abortion bill in Ireland and their shameful position in Egypt. But then, they are being true to their class and, as wise Mr Marx pointed out, that's a better indicator of interest than what they say.

Well, unfortunately, "pro-democratic (including socialist) forces" and not only some calling themselves Trotskyist chose to back the military against the democratically elected government in Egypt.

Marx did not think that working class consciousness on its own had all the answers, or he would not have sweated over all that study and writing.

ang
16-08-2013, 01:27 AM
EU Diplomats to Meet on Egypt -


enior European diplomats will meet Monday to begin considering what action to take in response to the bloody crackdown on protesters by Egypt's interim authorities and the imposition of a state of emergency.

A European Union spokesman said Thursday that officials from the bloc's 28 member states will meet in Brussels to discuss the situation in Egypt and to prepare a "possible" meeting of EU foreign ministers in the coming days.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323639704579014753250230172.html?u tm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co

C. Flower
16-08-2013, 09:48 AM
EU Diplomats to Meet on Egypt -



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323639704579014753250230172.html?u tm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co


Well, seeing as the IMF and austerity capitalism underly much of what has happened since 2010 in Egypt, they should have plenty to think about.

http://arabist.net/blog/2013/8/15/august-14-in-egypt-in-numbers


Dead (according to Ministry of Health, and still counting): 525
Wounded: 3,500
Churches, monasteries, Christians schools and libraries attacked (Source (http://nilerevolt.wordpress.com/2013/08/14/1198/)) : 56
Days that Mohamed ElBaradei lasted as a civilian figure-head of the army-run "second revolution" before resigning in protest: 28
Other resignations: 0
Justifications presented by Egypt's non-Islamist media and political parties for the gratuitous murder of hundreds of their fellow citizens, and commendations of the security forces for their "steadfastness" and "restraint": too many to count


Not too much information yet about how attacks on churches started, or who carried them out. In the past, both the State and Islamicists have been involved.

Sam Lord
16-08-2013, 10:08 AM
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/08/15/egyp-a15.html
[URL="http://workerscompass.org/a-path-forward-for-egypts-revolution/"]


It's not a bad article and better than most stuff coming from the "left" internationally.

Two points however:

1. While the "west" will not break with the Egyptian military there is no evidence (that I have seen anyway) that the US the EU or anyone else gave the green light for the coup. Until such evidence emerges (if it does) people should reserve judgment. I say this because it seems to me that the MB was a party that the US could have quite happily co-existed with over time. It is quite possible that the Egyptian army acted on it's own initiative and for it's own reasons. I'm not saying this to defend imperialism in any way ... but a clear and correct political analysis cannot be made of any situation on the basis of preconceived ideas or prejudice instead of facts.

2. Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution has as about much relevance to the situation in Egypt as Einstein's general theory of relativity. Again we have a case of someone seeking to impose some formula instead with dealing with the actual situation and forces.

Sam Lord
16-08-2013, 10:18 AM
Will this be Algeria all over again or is there a force in Egypt that can change the dynamic?



The Algerian Civil War was an armed conflict between the Algerian government and various Islamist rebel groups which began in 1991. Total casualties have yet to be accurately counted but it is estimated to have cost somewhere between 44,000 and 200,000 lives, in a population of about 25,010,000 in 1990 and 31,193,917 in 2000.[6][7]

More than 70 journalists were assassinated, either by security forces or by Islamists.[8] The conflict effectively ended with a government victory, following the surrender of the Islamic Salvation Army and the 2002 defeat of the Armed Islamic Group.

The conflict began in December 1991, when the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) party gained popularity amongst the Algerian people and the National Liberation Front (FLN) party, fearing the former's victory, cancelled elections after the first round. At this time the country's military effectively took control of the government, and president Chadli Bendjedid was forced from office. After the FIS was banned and thousands of its members arrested, Islamist guerrillas rapidly emerged and began an armed campaign against the government and its supporters.




The army saw this outcome as unacceptable. The FIS had made open threats against the ruling pouvoir, condemning them as unpatriotic and pro-French, as well as financially corrupt. Additionally, FIS leadership was at best divided on the desirability of democracy, and some expressed fears that a FIS government would be, as U. S. Assistant Secretary of State Edward Djerejian put it, "one man, one vote, one time. "

On January 11, 1992 the army cancelled the electoral process, forcing President Chadli Bendjedid to resign and bringing in the exiled independence fighter Mohammed Boudiaf to serve as a new president. However, on 29 June 1992 he was assassinated by one of his body guards, a Lieutenant L. Boumaarafi. The assassin was sentenced to death in a closed trial in 1995. The sentence was not carried out. So many FIS members were arrested—5,000 by the army's account, 30,000 according to FIS, and including Abdelkader Hachani—that the jails had insufficient space to hold them in; camps were set up for them in the Sahara desert, and bearded men feared to leave their houses lest they be arrested as FIS sympathizers.

A state of emergency was declared, and many ordinary constitutional rights were suspended. Any protests that occurred were suppressed, and human rights organizations, such as Amnesty International, reported frequent government use of torture and holding of suspects without charge or trial. The government officially dissolved the FIS on March 4.

Of the few FIS activists that remained free, many took this as a declaration of war. Throughout much of the country, remaining FIS activists, along with some Islamists too radical for FIS, took to the hills with whatever weapons were available and became guerrilla fighters. Their first attacks on the security forces (not counting the Guemmar incident) began barely a week after the coup, and soldiers and policemen rapidly became targets.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War

C. Flower
16-08-2013, 10:31 AM
It's not a bad article and better than most stuff coming from the "left" internationally.

Two points however:

[QUOTE]1. While the "west" will not break with the Egyptian military there is no evidence (that I have seen anyway) that the US the EU or anyone else gave the green light for the coup. Until such evidence emerges (if it does) people should reserve judgment. I say this because it seems to me that the MB was a party that the US could have quite happily co-existed with over time. It is quite possible that the Egyptian army acted on it's own initiative and for it's own reasons. I'm not saying this to defend imperialism in any way ... but a clear and correct political analysis cannot be made of any situation on the basis of preconceived ideas or prejudice instead of facts.

It seems unlikely to me that the army would not have moved without US backing or encouragement. Tamarod, and the whole laser-sky-lit extravaganza of the coup had the stamp of the US all over it. The army is US funded and trained and there is no suggestion that that would change.
It seems to me that the economic crisis has activitated so many social layers and brought them on to the streets that whereas previously the US might have been happy to rely on the likes of the MB, the army, and facism, is what they now feel is needed to maintain control and impose their economic "reforms". No one should assume that this only applies to Egypt - people in Greece, South Africa and other countries where there is social upheaval should be watching this very closely.



2. Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution has as about much relevance to the situation in Egypt as Einstein's general theory of relativity. Again we have a case of someone seeking to impose some formula instead with dealing with the actual situation and forces.


The fundamental lessons of Leon Trotsky’s Theory of Permanent Revolution find bloody vindication in the latest slaughter in Cairo. The struggle for democracy can be carried out only in a ruthless struggle against imperialism, all sections of the capitalist class, and their political accomplices in the middle class. The task of fighting for democratic rights falls to the working class, as part of an independent revolutionary struggle for socialism and workers’ power.

I seem to remember Connolly said pretty much the same. Which part do you think is wrong ?

Binn Beal
16-08-2013, 11:40 AM
CF: Well, unfortunately, "pro-democratic (including socialist) forces" and not only some calling themselves Trotskyist chose to back the military against the democratically elected government in Egypt. I was of course using the term pro-democracy to mean those who are in favour of democracy and not how they label themselves.

C. Flower
16-08-2013, 12:15 PM
I was of course using the term pro-democracy to mean those who are in favour of democracy and not how they label themselves.

I appreciate that: but the horrible alliance that ushered in the military regime included Egyptian parties from the left, right and centre, who were a broad alliance and claimed to be pro democracy. There are some groups on the left in Egypt now saying they are neither for Mursi nor for the Army - this is really pretty bad stuff when one side is machine gunning the other.

While the majority of Egyptian people don't want the regime, it appears that the majority of the parties do. My point is that in this context calling for a broad popular front of organisations against the coup and to defend basic democratic and civil rights (including those of MB supporters) is not going to work. The organisations that do oppose the military regime need to take on the job, in critical, but practical, alliance with the MB, even if there are only a few of them.

Binn Beal
16-08-2013, 12:45 PM
Absolutely agree. It was interesting - and a bit unnerving - to hear McCain calling it like it is on the news this morning.

C. Flower
16-08-2013, 01:25 PM
Absolutely agree. It was interesting - and a bit unnerving - to hear McCain calling it like it is on the news this morning.

I missed that. What did he say ?

Richardbouvet
16-08-2013, 03:58 PM
A procession of honking cars with Egyptian flags have just gone past my Window (3.55pm). Has something happened?

Saoirse go Deo
16-08-2013, 05:11 PM
It's all so terribly sad isn't it. The whole Arab Spring has ended in ruin. Perhaps this has been down to the lack of clear direction and leadership... the mantra was clear, Gadaffi must go, Mubarrak must go... but what then?

I have to say I am rather sickened by the ongoing support from the bulk of those on the Irish left for the military coup. Perhaps it is because it is so far away, they forget that these are real people being killed. Many are always ready to denounce the PIRA as sadistic butchers, yet they cheer-lead indiscriminate slaughter of innocent protesters in Egypt and try to excuse it away by pointing out that some churches got burned down.

Count Bobulescu
16-08-2013, 09:37 PM
Amr Darrag in The New York Times on the U.S. role in Egypt's mess (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=1287e03726&e=e5c72d445c) As a former minister in Egypt's deposed Muslim Brotherhood party and founder of the Islamist group Freedom and Justice Party (FJP), Darrag dismisses the current government administration as a "military coup," a "junta," and "illegal putsch." He calls for the reinstatement of Muhammed Morsi and accuses the U.S. of hypocrisy. "American politicians won’t hesitate to flout their own laws or subvert their declared values for short-term political gains; and that when it comes to freedom, justice and human dignity, Muslims need not apply." "Interesting read," tweets (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=676c4ba619&e=e5c72d445c) Vali Nasr, dean of Johns Hopkins' School of Advanced International Studies, but Hoda Osman, the president of the Arab and Middle Eastern Journalists Association, tweets (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=6286c104f4&e=e5c72d445c) that it reads too much like party propaganda: "Surprised the NYT agreed to publish this." Randa Slim, a scholar at the Middle East Institute, writes (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=7711b07f1f&e=e5c72d445c), "It is time for FJP to move beyond restoring #Morsi presidency. It is finished."


James Traub in Foreign Policy on Obama's weak foreign policy in Egypt (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=4c39684625&e=e5c72d445c) "Speak softly and carry no stick," reads the headline of Traub's article, which criticizes the lack of any morality in Obama's realistic, consequentialist foreign policy approach to Egypt. Cutting off military aid to Egypt over its violent crackdown will likely not have any impact, but, Traub writes, "it has become a matter of national self-respect. … Democracies have to be able to look at themselves in the mirror, and to accept, if not like, what they see." BBC News analyst Dr. James Boys writes (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=c05c18acc6&e=e5c72d445c), "Nice piece on @ForeignPolicy (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=a373768532&e=e5c72d445c) as #Obama forgets/ignores Teddy Roosevelt's approach to foreign policy." Traub writes a "powerful & incisive piece on Obama admin and #Egypt," tweets David Kaye (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=9b877f7106&e=e5c72d445c), a human rights law professor and former State Department lawyer. "Worth reading this take on Obama's foreign policy," tweets Reuters reporter Myra MacDonald (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=7a7b14a9e0&e=e5c72d445c).

Count Bobulescu
16-08-2013, 09:43 PM
Twitter has decided to stop my tweets and retweets at this stage.
Dang! Banned on Twitter. I'd be embarrassed about that, but apparently you're not.

Count Bobulescu
16-08-2013, 10:13 PM
The Pentagon Has Lost Its Leverage with Egypt. Now What? (http://gove-media.com/portal/wts/cgmcfObb-r-bbi-9icgry9DczEBfrMa) // Stephanie Gaskell After a bloody crackdown in Egypt, the Pentagon cancels a military exercise that hasn't taken place since 2009. Does Gen. Adbul Fattah al-Sissi even care? By Stephanie Gaskell


Hopes for Bright Star were dimming, then Obama cancelled it. The big military exercise the U.S. holds with Egypt known as Bright Star, held every other year and scheduled for next month, was considered low-hanging fruit when it comes to suspending assistance and engagement with Egypt. Bright Star won't happen now, though the administration isn't making any substantial changes yet to the $1.3 billion aid package it maintains with Egypt, where the crackdown against dissidents and the turmoil overall is getting worse.

Binn Beal
16-08-2013, 10:22 PM
The Americans are still going ahead with the sale of the F16s however because it was a non-coup followed by a non-massacre.
If they can get a good sectarian war going Christian v Muslim, it will justify the West's position retrospectively.

Count Bobulescu
16-08-2013, 10:36 PM
The Americans are still going ahead with the sale of the F16s however because it was a non-coup followed by a non-massacre.
If they can get a good sectarian war going Christian v Muslim, it will justify the West's position retrospectively.
You can always rely on BB to advance some absurd theory.
Pentagon Delays Sale of F-16 Jets to Egypt - Newsmax.com (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/US-Egypt-f16-jets/2013/07/24/id/516771)www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/US-Egypt-f16-jets/2013/07/.../516771‎
Jul 24, 2013 - The Obama administration says it is delaying a planned sale of four F-16 fighter jets to Egypt in light of the military overthrow that ousted ...

People Korps
17-08-2013, 12:02 AM
Twitter has decided to stop my tweets and retweets at this stage. is that not a thread?

TotalMayhem
17-08-2013, 12:04 AM
Jul 24, 2013 - The Obama administration says it is delaying a planned sale of four F-16 fighter jets to Egypt in light of the military overthrow that ousted ...

Oh, the Egyptians must be truly shocked... what will they do without them 40 years old clunkers?

Seriously, since Wall Street have done away with Ghaddafi and bought them Egyptians some nice new neighbours, why would they want those hopelessly out-dated fighters anyway? Save the money and invest in riot-gear.

People Korps
17-08-2013, 12:14 AM
While the government of Ireland and An Garda's mouthpiece the Irish Independent headline is [QUOTE]24 policemen killed in Egypt in last 24 hour[QUOTE] http://www.independent.ie/world-news/24-policemen-killed-in-egypt-in-last-24-hours-29504285.html Other papers note the hundreds to thousands the police and army have murdered in the past week and even highlight the scores killed including 8 policemen today (the day the Indo is reporting on
Security officials said the death toll rose to at least 60 people killed across the country: 52 civilians and eight police officers http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/16/egypt-scores-killed-day-rage

To be fair to An Indo Siochana they do have a video of cops firing live rounds embedded but wtf maybe they shou;d send Paul Williams to Cairo to get more cop point of view of the murdering regime The Irish Independent avoids language like
gathered nearby to protest the state-led massacre of hundreds used by internationally renowned organs http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/16/egypt-massacre-morsi-clashes-mosques

Sam Lord
17-08-2013, 11:51 AM
I seem to remember Connolly said pretty much the same. Which part do you think is wrong ?

Because a statement may not be wrong in principle does not mean it has relevance to any particular situation. One can only pity some one who looks at the situation in Egypt and takes from it that it is a vindication of some theory of Trotsky. It's like someone falls out of a window and dies and and an onlooker says ... "Oh look ... a great vindication of Newton's theory of gravity".

Right ... umm ... ok .. I'm sure that will be a great comfort to the family and assist in people not falling out of windows in the future.

(and this is not to put on par a scientific theory with anything the great one asserted)

C. Flower
17-08-2013, 12:42 PM
Dang! Banned on Twitter. I'd be embarrassed about that, but apparently you're not.

If you were on Twitter at all, you would realise that there is no "banning" there, but there is at times a level of throttling of use on particular topics.

C. Flower
17-08-2013, 01:01 PM
Because a statement may not be wrong in principle does not mean it has relevance to any particular situation. One can only pity some one who looks at the situation in Egypt and takes from it that it is a vindication of some theory of Trotsky. It's like someone falls out of a window and dies and and an onlooker says ... "Oh look ... a great vindication of Newton's theory of gravity".

Right ... umm ... ok .. I'm sure that will be a great comfort to the family and assist in people not falling out of windows in the future.

(and this is not to put on par a scientific theory with anything the great one asserted)

This is not a general statement. The article said, in relation to the current situation in Egypt


The struggle for democracy can be carried out only in a ruthless struggle against imperialism, all sections of the capitalist class, and their political accomplices in the middle class. The task of fighting for democratic rights falls to the working class, as part of an independent revolutionary struggle for socialism and workers’ power.


What they are saying is that democracy can't be brought about without taking on the US in relation to its interference in Egypt. I was surprised in Egypt how little awareness there was in 2011 that the US was Mubarak's main stay and that to some extent he was a US puppet. And without taking on the Egyptian pro-Mubarak wealthy right wing, and those sections of the middle class who have aligned with them. Also, I would say, taking on the fake-left that has lined up with the Mubarak side. There simply is no prospect whatsoever of Egypt forming a broad popular alliance and achieving social gains in an old style pre-Thatcher western style democracy, if that is what you have in mind. Neither the world economy, not the alignment of opposing political and social forces, allows for that. So in Egypt, the only hope for democracy is a workers democracy that would guarantee basic rights, brought in by trade unions, students, and at least one real left political party.

C. Flower
17-08-2013, 01:13 PM
Alistair Beach and others are tweeting direct reports of an armed siege of 100+ Morsi supporters and allied civilians, men and women,who are barricaded into a mosque in Cairo, by troops, plain clothes police, and local people.

https://twitter.com/Alastair_Beach

C. Flower
17-08-2013, 01:19 PM
It's all so terribly sad isn't it. The whole Arab Spring has ended in ruin. Perhaps this has been down to the lack of clear direction and leadership... the mantra was clear, Gadaffi must go, Mubarrak must go... but what then?

I have to say I am rather sickened by the ongoing support from the bulk of those on the Irish left for the military coup. Perhaps it is because it is so far away, they forget that these are real people being killed. Many are always ready to denounce the PIRA as sadistic butchers, yet they cheer-lead indiscriminate slaughter of innocent protesters in Egypt and try to excuse it away by pointing out that some churches got burned down.

Getting rid of Mubarak was never going to be an end to it, only a first stage of a longer battle. Mubarak was ousted when there was a temporary coming together of much of Egyptian society from poor to sections of the middle class and even some rich. The US was attempting a "transition" to a pro-US and pro market government of some kind that they could live with. The Muslim Brotherhood must have seemed OK to them, as they were implementing neo liberal policies required by the IMF and were hard on the left.

But the MB were not able to keep a lid on the situation: neither right nor left were happy with them and the army stepped in to clamp down before anything really radical might emerge.

C. Flower
18-08-2013, 09:39 AM
Protests by the MB led Alliance Against the Coup are called for today.

This is a very lengthy substantial outline of the events in Egypt, and of the actions of the police and army, the MB, the Coptic Church, and others. The Arabist blog posted in full after it was hacked on the original website. It goes through the responsibility of the MB, Salafists, or the State and police thugs in attacking churches allegedly in response to the attacks on MB supporters, and to the support by Coptic Church leaders for the coup, inconclusively, but points out that the attacks, unlike the army and police attacks, were non-fatal. It discusses the hatred of Brotherhood supporters for the police, who have tormented them (they were illegal pre 2011) for years. It says that a police car with five police was picked up by MB supporters and thrown off a bridge into the Nile. The report claims that anti-coup protests across Egypt have taken the army by surprise, as they were expecting them to be concentrated in Cairo. Civilians, including non- MB people, youths and even children have been protesting against the coup. Police, according to his report, have retreated to police stations and military centres across Egypt.

Conditions are ripe in Egypt for rumour, allegation and counterallegation to take over from facts and I'm dubious about all reports until there is overwhelming evidence, or a very reliable and experienced source.

http://bzapt.com/TOfZ

Was this police vehicle thrown, or did it reverse back off the flyover?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeRmJwqBMKU

barrym
18-08-2013, 11:42 AM
Apropos, what's the story with the children of the Imam of Clonskeagh? Surely they must have known they could be killed/captured/whatever? Is it some twisted sense of martyrdom? Did their father approve??

C. Flower
18-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Apropos, what's the story with the children of the Imam of Clonskeagh? Surely they must have known they could be killed/captured/whatever? Is it some twisted sense of martyrdom? Did their father approve??

They are in a detention centre in Cairo, according to the Independent.

I think that it is entirely understandable that they would protest against the coup and the illegal detention of Mursi.

barrym
18-08-2013, 03:49 PM
I think that it is entirely understandable that they would protest against the coup and the illegal detention of Mursi.

Nailing your colours? Surely you cannot believe that the Botherhood, taken over by those who think that, in this day and age, the best solution for a well educated population is an islamic republic, in their mould, is the answer?

Removal of Morsi by the military is not right, per se, but the common people, after Mubarak, thought that the Brotherhood, as was in the 1920s when it was formed, would be the charitable islamic based organisation it was and would be fine as a government. This was the view of many who voted for them, not realising that Morsi was the frontman for several radicalistic factions in the Brotherhood.

Understandable too that the family of an Imam, "holidaying" at home, wouldn't go home as anybody else on holiday there when Morsi was toppled.

Remains to be seen what will happen with the "new" army - the post Mubarak excised one. Heavily armed, no problem getting supplies from the various Eastern European sources. I think they have the staying power and they want to organise the future in their way.

Ho-hum, "the West" is as usual headless and depending on the discredited UN to come up with a solution. Meanwhile Israel and the Russkies, from their different but not indistinguishable in beneficiary terms, viewpoints. With the Middle East in various forms of turmoil they see opportunities.

Sam Lord
18-08-2013, 06:12 PM
Nailing your colours? Surely you cannot believe that the Botherhood, taken over by those who think that, in this day and age, the best solution for a well educated population is an islamic republic, in their mould, is the answer?


One does not have to support the policies of any particular elected government to oppose it being overthrown in a military coup. Why do you think the coup will provide a "solution" for anyone in Egypt, well educated or otherwise? Have developments to date filled you with confidence?



Removal of Morsi by the military is not right, per se, but the common people, after Mubarak, thought that the Brotherhood, as was in the 1920s when it was formed, would be the charitable islamic based organisation it was and would be fine as a government. This was the view of many who voted for them, not realising that Morsi was the frontman for several radicalistic factions in the Brotherhood.

So it is OK for armies to remove elected governments they think may have deceived people in an election campaign. We are entering interesting territory. Will you be encouraging the Irish army to move soon?



Understandable too that the family of an Imam, "holidaying" at home, wouldn't go home as anybody else on holiday there when Morsi was toppled.


How do you know that everyone on holiday went home?



Remains to be seen what will happen with the "new" army - the post Mubarak excised one. Heavily armed, no problem getting supplies from the various Eastern European sources. I think they have the staying power and they want to organise the future in their way.


The Egyptian army is directly funded (i.e. it doesn't go through any government) by the U.S. to the tune of $1.3 billion a year. This funding will continue.



Ho-hum, "the West" is as usual headless and depending on the discredited UN to come up with a solution. Meanwhile Israel and the Russkies, from their different but not indistinguishable in beneficiary terms, viewpoints. With the Middle East in various forms of turmoil they see opportunities.

What would you like "the west" to do?

C. Flower
18-08-2013, 10:00 PM
I recommend this blog (and following comments) by a young Egyptian devastated at events, two and a half years after he flew home to join the revolution January 29th 2011. I met people very like him in Tahrir Square. There is so much dedication and so much confusion.

http://www.madamasr.com/content/everything-was-possible

Count Bobulescu
19-08-2013, 12:59 AM
Oh, the Egyptians must be truly shocked... what will they do without them 40 years old clunkers?

Seriously, since Wall Street have done away with Ghaddafi and bought them Egyptians some nice new neighbours, why would they want those hopelessly out-dated fighters anyway? Save the money and invest in riot-gear.Don't ask me I'm not the one buying them.:D They need aircraft now, can't wait for the F-35. I assume they believe them better than the alternatives from Russia, Britain, France etc. They do get upgraded from the original.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-03/battle-over-f-16-combat-jet-upgrades-unfolds-amid-new-plane-push.html

Count Bobulescu
19-08-2013, 01:11 AM
There have been lots of calls for the US to stop it's $1.5B aid. Consensus seems to be that if the US withdrew aid, Saudi would replace it in a heartbeat. Better to try to have some influence, rather than none at all. Saudi just gave $5B. Kuwait & Qatar just gave a combined $7B.

PUNDIT PREP - "Freezing U.S. aid to Egypt would not be easy or cost-free: Aid cutoff does not appear imminent -- Stopping aid would hurt U.S. defense companies," by Reuters' Susan Cornwell and Andrea Shalal-Esa: "A special financing arrangement Cairo uses could leave U.S. taxpayers holding the bill for billions of dollars in equipment Egypt already has ordered on credit, and companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics that build military hardware for Egypt would be affected by aid restrictions. ... Since 1979, when Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel, it has been the second largest recipient, after Israel, of U.S. bilateral foreign aid, the Congressional Research Service says. From 1948 to 2011, American aid to Cairo amounted to $71.6 billion. Lately, the U.S. aid has been running at about $1.55 billion a year. About $1.3 billion of this is military aid, which comes back to the United States in spending on things like tanks and planes. ... [C]ash flow financing lets Egypt and Israel make arms purchases from the United States against promises of future aid and pay for things over time -- like a credit card. The Pentagon declined to discuss what amounts might be outstanding under Egypt's cash flow financing arrangement, but analysts say it is at least $2 billion. ... Cutting military aid to Egypt also would leave some U.S. defense companies looking elsewhere for clients. Joel Johnson, an analyst with the Virginia-based Teal Group, said it could lead to layoffs in Lima, Ohio, where General Dynamics Corp is building kits to upgrade 125 M1A1 Egyptian tanks." http://reut.rs/1eRJNRX (http://go.politicoemail.com/?qs=610821e36a337d1fa4ab797d8a0076a46da530492dbc8e 8f3026dd941415e6a9)

Saudi Arabia gives Egypt $5 billion in aid | Reuters (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&ved=0CG0QFjAK&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2F2013% 2F07%2F09%2Fus-egypt-protests-saudi-aid-idUSBRE9680QT20130709&ei=2woOUuvFFZDeyQH_rYFQ&usg=AFQjCNHfoK8SzixDMObnBqYCNRRfc7BpgA&sig2=7-OQLXzN8-iRMqtdp_ze9Q&bvm=bv.50768961,d.aWc)

Count Bobulescu
19-08-2013, 02:05 AM
Jeffrey Goldberg in Bloomberg on how the U.S. lost Egypt (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=69e7712c8c&e=e5c72d445c) “Within a span of just a few years, Egyptians have somehow convinced themselves that the U.S. has been an ally of both Egypt’s former dictator, Hosni Mubarak, and Mubarak’s main enemy, the Muslim Brotherhood,” Goldberg writes of the public opinion shift about the U.S. recent involvement in Egypt. How exactly did that happen?

Scott Johnson of Power Line (http://theatlantic.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed2d318978b7dc9b30b1f464f&id=866629be31&e=e5c72d445c) says it may have just been by listening to speeches by President Obama and Ambassador Anne Patterson. “The Obama administration has supported the Muslim Brotherhood right along.”

C. Flower
19-08-2013, 10:38 AM
Sixty years since the CIA organised a military coup in Iran.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/18/cia_admits_it_was_behind_irans_coup#.UhHaNQg-PL0.twitter


Finally, the CIA has published a document by a CIA historian admitting responsibility for the coup.


on the website of the National Security Archive (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB435/), which obtained the document through the Freedom of Information Act -- is a brief excerpt from The Battle for Iran, an internal report prepared in the mid-1970s by an in-house CIA historian.
The document was first released in 1981, but with most of it excised, including all of Section III, entitled "Covert Action" -- the part that describes the coup itself. Most of that section remains under wraps, but this new version does formally make public, for the first time that we know of, the fact of the agency's participation: "[T]he military coup that overthrew Mosadeq and his National Front cabinet was carried out under CIA direction as an act of U.S. foreign policy," the history reads. The risk of leaving Iran "open to Soviet aggression," it adds, "compelled the United States ... in planning and executing TPAJAX."
TPAJAX was the CIA's codename for the overthrow plot, which relied on local collaborators at every stage. It consisted of several steps: using propaganda to undermine Mossadegh politically, inducing the Shah to cooperate, bribing members of parliament, organizing the security forces, and ginning up public demonstrations. The initial attempt actually failed, but after a mad scramble the coup forces pulled themselves together and came through on their second try, on August 19.

barrym
19-08-2013, 11:19 AM
One does not have to support the policies of any particular elected government to oppose it being overthrown in a military coup. Why do you think the coup will provide a "solution" for anyone in Egypt, well educated or otherwise? Have developments to date filled you with confidence?

I didn't suggest the "coup" would provide a solution to anything, any more than an islamic radical government would.
Recall that this was the first freely elected government EVER in Egypt, so, it might be expected to reflect the population more evenly. The removal of that government might be an indication that it didn't represent the people, sufficiently.




So it is OK for armies to remove elected governments they think may have deceived people in an election campaign. We are entering interesting territory. Will you be encouraging the Irish army to move soon?

Smart ass, we've had governments of "our own" for 90+years, more than half of those 90+ was one party rule, where has that got us? Of course it isn't "ok" but in a country where the most recent regime was 40+ years of dictatorship it is probably the only solution, short term, hopefully.


The Egyptian army is directly funded (i.e. it doesn't go through any government) by the U.S. to the tune of $1.3 billion a year. This funding will continue.

...and what is the benefit of that? Not much, imo, and worrying that we might get a US backed 'national' government, would that be better?? Just more arms "sales" for the Obama government's military-industrial complex.




What would you like "the west" to do?

Invest some effort in trying to get a more consensus representation. The EU, amazingly, has sent someone to speak to the 'ancien regime' but it would appear that there is no consensus at the EU level, or nobody wants to break their holliers.....;) to suggest a solution or even the makings of one, just like the UN. The last thing we want or need is a vacuum, the army will like that.

C. Flower
19-08-2013, 11:40 AM
Reports, apparently stemming from Mubarak's lawyers, that he is to be released from prison. He is being tried on charges of having protestors killed in January 2011.


Ahmed Kadry @AhmedKadry
(http://twitter.com/AhmedKadry)I'm now waiting for Omar Suliman to appear from the shadows, back from the dead, whispering "I told you you weren't ready for democracy."







نشرة القاهرة‎ (http://twitter.com/cairowire) retweeted

27s (https://twitter.com/GalalAmrG/status/369406482137092096)
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000137823874/1293527e36d212b13978310187dfce24_normal.jpeg
Galal @GalalAmrG
(http://twitter.com/GalalAmrG)@iyad_elbaghdadi (http://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi) Yes, but you could be released if you're pending only one trial. Means he'll be going to trial from home, not jail.
ViewConversation (https://web.tweetdeck.com/#)




نشرة القاهرة‎ (http://twitter.com/cairowire) retweeted

45s (https://twitter.com/MattMcBradley/status/369406406601887744)
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2617040254/2r5c6nb09u2ftnr9gk3a_normal.jpeg
Matt Bradley @MattMcBradley
(http://twitter.com/MattMcBradley)Criminal court preparing to release Mubarak, his sons are to remain in custody. #egypt (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23egypt)

Sam Lord
19-08-2013, 03:19 PM
I didn't suggest the "coup" would provide a solution to anything, any more than an islamic radical government would.


Hard to know why you are supporting something that will not provide a solution to anything. Particularly as it has caused the death of many hundreds of people and threatens to plunge the country into civil war.

Binn Beal
19-08-2013, 03:51 PM
I fear Sam L. you are wasting your sweetness on the desert air. Barry's reasoning, if I can make it out, is that it is okay for a foreign-financed army to imprison a government if the democracy is less than 90 years old.

Sam Lord
19-08-2013, 09:33 PM
Saw some scumbag of a spokesperson for the Saudi feudal despots on TV tonight spouting the predictable line that the coup was not really a coup. He thought it the best thing for "democracy" in Egypt... being well qualified to talk about democracy.

Some people have given up hope on the Arab Spring .. personally I can't wait for it to spread a little further.

Binn Beal
19-08-2013, 09:49 PM
Some of the charges against Mubarak have been dropped according to Al Jazeera.

barrym
19-08-2013, 10:07 PM
Hard to know why you are supporting something that will not provide a solution to anything. Particularly as it has caused the death of many hundreds of people and threatens to plunge the country into civil war.

In think you and BinnBeal might benefit from a little light reading - from todays IT - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/islamic-brotherhood-failed-to-understand-the-majority-of-egyptians-rejects-fundamentalism-1.1495562

The last para is the reasoning for my opinion, in part.

None of what has happened is excusable, neither is it dissmissable in a couple of glib phrases as reactions to an analysis of a complex set of issues.

I have to say that I am disappointed at the level of over simplification indicated by the postings. Nothing that happens in the Islamic world is explained by simple reference to US/Israel/Al Kayida or any other 'movement' nor is it translatable as we in the West might understand religion. The IT article tries to give the present situation in Egypt a context, a specifically Egyptian one.

Binn Beal
19-08-2013, 10:34 PM
Sorry you are disappointed at my simple understanding of the situation. For me, a democratically elected government was overthrown by an army which is sponsored to the tune of 1.3 billion dollars annually by the US government. This army and its collaborators have imprisoned the President and many of his supporters and killed many unarmed pro-democracy supporters.
I have little or no respect for the Islamic religion but this government was not overthrown because it was comprised of Muslims or because it was suspected that it might introduce laws favouring that religion.
Democracy is as valuable, and as delicate a flower, for the people of Egypt as it is for the people of Ireland or anywhere else.

Sam Lord
19-08-2013, 10:39 PM
In think you and BinnBeal might benefit from a little light reading - from todays IT - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/islamic-brotherhood-failed-to-understand-the-majority-of-egyptians-rejects-fundamentalism-1.1495562

The last para is the reasoning for my opinion, in part.

None of what has happened is excusable, neither is it dissmissable in a couple of glib phrases as reactions to an analysis of a complex set of issues.

I have to say that I am disappointed at the level of over simplification indicated by the postings. Nothing that happens in the Islamic world is explained by simple reference to US/Israel/Al Kayida or any other 'movement' nor is it translatable as we in the West might understand religion. The IT article tries to give the present situation in Egypt a context, a specifically Egyptian one.

i had already read the Jansen spin. It does not provide what you call an "Egyptian context" but the perspective of autocrats which even the spokespersons of imperialism do not have the neck to articulate openly at this stage when prisoners are being executed in custody.



Furthermore, in the 2½ years since Mubarak was overthrown, Egypt has moved beyond authoritarian military men. Egyptians expect the new constitution to be democratic and inclusive and the new parliament and president to deliver the needs and demands of the people at large. If they don’t, Tahrir Square remains a democratic option.


It is ludicrous to talk about a "democratic" option being open in the future when an elected government has been overthrown and the people are under martial law. The jails are being filled and the torturers are at work. Only severely misguided people can see some good coming from such a situation. How can you talk about democracy when it is impossible for the largest party in the country ever to win an election? Indeed, there is talk of it being banned.

From what I have read many conscious Egyptians have no doubt that their revolution is being rolled back. The "deep state" as they call it has assumed full power once again and will not be relinquishing it in any great hurry.

C. Flower
19-08-2013, 11:07 PM
Sixty years since the CIA organised a military coup in Iran.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/18/cia_admits_it_was_behind_irans_coup#.UhHaNQg-PL0.twitter


Finally, the CIA has published a document by a CIA historian admitting responsibility for the coup.

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Been reading these documents. Very strong resemblance between the coup in Iran and in Egypt, for all the sixty years of separation. In both cases, a mass protest was fuelled and then "joined" by the armed forces, who proceeded to take over.

C. Flower
19-08-2013, 11:13 PM
HRW report on the massacres. "Excessive/lethal force used by security forces"

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/19/egypt-security-forces-used-excessive-lethal-force

Sam Lord
20-08-2013, 12:02 AM
HRW report on the massacres. "Excessive/lethal force used by security forces"

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/19/egypt-security-forces-used-excessive-lethal-force

Astonishing footage:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a7a_1376615614

C. Flower
20-08-2013, 06:41 AM
Astonishing footage:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a7a_1376615614

Incredibly brave cameraman.

Who were the shooters? They appeared at the end - casual uniforms, one masked. Nothing at all like Egyptian police in the way they moved.

barrym
20-08-2013, 07:33 AM
i had already read the Jansen spin.

Your use of 'spin' indicates to me a certain bias concerning certain commentary. If so, is today's Jansen piece about EU/US attempts to find a compromise also "spin"?




How can you talk about democracy when it is impossible for the largest party in the country ever to win an election? Indeed, there is talk of it being banned.

Again, I make my point about simplifying, the Brotherhood is not a 'party' in our political sense, it is a long established charitable foundation, if one must use our terminology. It has recently been politicised as a result of the Mubarak overturn.

B

Binn Beal
20-08-2013, 08:16 AM
The Brotherhood is a political party in the sense that it stood candidates, fought an election and was duly elected to form a government. I can't see our political parties doing anything differently.
In what way are they different to the extent that the army has a right to overthrow the government, imprison the president and shoot hundreds of their followers? Even calling it a 'charitable foundation' rather than a 'political party' doesn't justify this assault on democracy.
The spin in all this is that if the Brotherhood is not a political party, then it wasn't an election (in 'our' sense) and therefore not a coup, and not a return to a military dictatorship under US guidance.

barrym
20-08-2013, 11:59 AM
The spin in all this is that if the Brotherhood is not a political party, then it wasn't an election (in 'our' sense) and therefore not a coup, and not a return to a military dictatorship under US guidance.

You may not be far wrong.

The situation was, at the time of the (first ever) election, that most Egyptians thought of the Brotherhood as a charitable organisation, not realising that it had been infiltrated by radical elements who saw the opportunity and played the Islamic card for the believers. It took the period from the election until recently for the others to see what was happening, they were the first in the streets.

In the same timeframe the army had been purged of Mubarak elements who were mostly old guard and replaced by new boys who would mostly not be radical, in the Islamic sense. They saw the opportunity of the dissatisfaction with Morsi ( a figurehead) and the Brothers, to move in and, as they see it, replace them with more 'modern' governance. Many of the new boys are US trained, creating a dependence. In the meantime the US electorate are grown weary of Islamic wars, preferring to support Israel and let ex Vietnam vets call the policy shots.

A mess? yes, a solution? might have been. El Baradi was thought to have been an option - he has left, pissed off.
The future, tricky, because some unpurged elements of the police are running the show, settling scores. Note the recent 'announcement' that the army are not on the streets but in reserve. The army will probably let the police at it for a bit until they are discredited for too much bloodletting, then the problem of Obama's weakness, McCains gung ho, Congress split, the US people wanting out, all come in to play, with unknown, as yet, consequences. Ashcroft saw that but couldn't pull off a (short term) solution.

Watch this space.

C. Flower
20-08-2013, 01:08 PM
You may not be far wrong.

The situation was, at the time of the (first ever) election, that most Egyptians thought of the Brotherhood as a charitable organisation, not realising that it had been infiltrated by radical elements who saw the opportunity and played the Islamic card for the believers. It took the period from the election until recently for the others to see what was happening, they were the first in the streets.

In the same timeframe the army had been purged of Mubarak elements who were mostly old guard and replaced by new boys who would mostly not be radical, in the Islamic sense. They saw the opportunity of the dissatisfaction with Morsi ( a figurehead) and the Brothers, to move in and, as they see it, replace them with more 'modern' governance. Many of the new boys are US trained, creating a dependence. In the meantime the US electorate are grown weary of Islamic wars, preferring to support Israel and let ex Vietnam vets call the policy shots.

A mess? yes, a solution? might have been. El Baradi was thought to have been an option - he has left, pissed off.
The future, tricky, because some unpurged elements of the police are running the show, settling scores. Note the recent 'announcement' that the army are not on the streets but in reserve. The army will probably let the police at it for a bit until they are discredited for too much bloodletting, then the problem of Obama's weakness, McCains gung ho, Congress split, the US people wanting out, all come in to play, with unknown, as yet, consequences. Ashcroft saw that but couldn't pull off a (short term) solution.

Watch this space.

Armoured vehicle with machine gun mounted, in action in the streets. Does not look too much like any police force I know of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2avGWp1Lzc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The whole operation is very close to the Iran coup in the way it developed. Politics and local discontent were manipulated to bring a massive crowd on the streets, and then the army stepped in. The lazer lights show had the true look of hollywood, I can see the Kathryn Biggelow movie now.

Do you have some sources for the information that the US has trained new forces in the Egyptian army ?

barrym
20-08-2013, 03:21 PM
Just saw this

"The EU's envoy to north Africa, Bernardino Leon, has said events in Egypt are "more complex" than a simple story of the army killing Muslim protesters.
He told press in Brussels on Monday (19 August) the military has a "special responsibility."
He also said media reports it has done the vast bulk of the killing - at least 800 people in the past few days, including some burned alive in tents or shot by snipers - are fair"

I think that the information coming out is confused, to say the least.

We need to take into account that 'police' is a loose description of part of the 'security forces' i.e. including state security goons in many cases. In the regimes of the Middle East there are (even where there has been a "spring") a mix of organisations to manage security. Post springs many of these still exist, often with a rump of hardliners in them or with hardliners lurking around. Arms and other kinds of gear are widely available to these security forces. Getting your mitts on arms is easy, the area is packed with salespeople for all sorts of suppliers, official and less than official.

Armies are different, in that they are the professional soldiers of varying quality. Quite likely there are friends from the US special forces hanging about in Egypt, providing training and other 'support'

C. Flower
20-08-2013, 03:23 PM
Just saw this

"The EU's envoy to north Africa, Bernardino Leon, has said events in Egypt are "more complex" than a simple story of the army killing Muslim protesters.
He told press in Brussels on Monday (19 August) the military has a "special responsibility."
He also said media reports it has done the vast bulk of the killing - at least 800 people in the past few days, including some burned alive in tents or shot by snipers - are fair"

I think that the information coming out is confused, to say the least.

We need to take into account that 'police' is a loose description of part of the 'security forces' i.e. including state security goons in many cases. In the regimes of the Middle East there are (even where there has been a "spring") a mix of organisations to manage security. Post springs many of these still exist, often with a rump of hardliners in them or with hardliners lurking around. Arms and other kinds of gear are widely available to these security forces. Getting your mitts on arms is easy, the area is packed with salespeople for all sorts of suppliers, official and less than official.

Armies are different, in that they are the professional soldiers of varying quality. Quite likely there are friends from the US special forces hanging about in Egypt, providing training and other 'support'















Quite likely


Highly likely. The man doing the shooting in the video appeared to have at least one masked "minder" with him - maybe identifying targets ?

barrym
20-08-2013, 03:27 PM
Do you have some sources for the information that the US has trained new forces in the Egyptian army ?

?? Did I say that? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. McC has lots of pals in the military grey areas, maybe even our old pals Haliburton are sniffing around.

C. Flower
20-08-2013, 04:30 PM
?? Did I say that? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. McC has lots of pals in the military grey areas, maybe even our old pals Haliburton are sniffing around.


These guys out and about maybe ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_777

I have seen military types on TV in civilian/black protest dress and again in the video linked by Sam Lord, shooting during Muslim Brotherhood protests.
On some occasions, in civilian "protest black masked" gear shooting from M B positions.

Sam Lord
20-08-2013, 05:19 PM
I have seen military types on TV in civilian/black protest dress and again in the video linked by Sam Lord, shooting during Muslim Brotherhood protests.
On some occasions, in civilian "protest black masked" gear shooting from M B positions.

I don't think Egyptian protesters particularly dress in black .. that's a western "black bloc" thing so I don't the police in black have any significance in that regard. And I have not seen any footage of anyone looking like a cop shooting from MB positions.

The armed guys in black are probably police special forces who seem to have a penchant for black clothing and masks as can be seen from the following videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZWj04CYCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0VMOBTe1C4

With regard to the video I posted I am much more interested in the guys in civvies towards the end going into a house across the street from the cameraman. They are wearing bullet proof vests and in some cases gas masks but do not seem particularly fit and are not carrying weapons as far as I could tell. I wonder what they were about?

C. Flower
20-08-2013, 06:20 PM
I don't think Egyptian protesters particularly dress in black .. that's a western "black bloc" thing so I don't the police in black have any significance in that regard. And I have not seen any footage of anyone looking like a cop shooting from MB positions.

The armed guys in black are probably police special forces who seem to have a penchant for black clothing and masks as can be seen from the following videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZWj04CYCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0VMOBTe1C4

With regard to the video I posted I am much more interested in the guys in civvies towards the end going into a house across the street from the cameraman. They are wearing bullet proof vests and in some cases gas masks but do not seem particularly fit and are not carrying weapons as far as I could tell. I wonder what they were about?

These are the people I was talking about. I think that one or more of them was firing. I will take another look. They are not exactly in civvies.

I saw footage of the earlier pro MB protests three weeks back in which there were brief views of a small number of masked men shooting from positions close to the MB.

Your "Police special forces" are quasi military - I don't see any of our Gardaí legging it up that wall.

The US Government has been training Egyptian police for years - via wikileaks -

http://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/187359


1. (C) Summary and comment: Police brutality in Egypt (http://www.theguardian.com/world/egypt) against common criminals is routine and pervasive. Contacts describe the police using force to extract confessions from criminals as a daily event, resulting from poor training and understaffing. Brutality against Islamist detainees has reportedly decreased overall, but security forces still resort to torturing Muslim Brotherhood activists who are deemed to pose a political threat. Over the past five years, the government has stopped denying that torture exists, and since late 2007 courts have sentenced approximately 15 police officers to prison terms for torture and killings.
Independent NGOs have criticized GOE-led efforts to provide human rights training for the police as ineffective and lacking political will. The GOE has not yet made a serious effort to transform the police from an instrument of regime power into a public service institution. We want to continue a USG-funded police training program (ref F), and to look for other ways to help the GOE address police brutality. End summary and comment.

C. Flower
20-08-2013, 07:06 PM
Hooded trainer in Krav Maga - Israeli fighting techniques - with Police Special Forces.

Why masked ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MwPAZZ-I80

There was a guy dressed like that in your video.

C. Flower
20-08-2013, 07:15 PM
Nasty and predictable signs of the Egyptian regime putting its back into fomenting sectarian divisions, over which it can position itself as a necessary security keeper.

I said a bit back this thread that we should not think the same things are not coming our way. Today, plenty in the media about supposed up and coming Al Qaeda attacks in Europe.




From Citizen To Problem: The New Coptic Tokenism (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/arabistdotnet/~3/0qKWc22EC9U/from-citizen-to-problem_the-new-coptic-tokenism?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email)
Posted: 19 Aug 2013 02:58 PM PDT
Paul Sedra, in Jadaliyya:

The Egyptian Foreign Ministry released a statement this past Thursday that was entirely without precedent, and yet it received practically no media attention amidst the political turmoil the country is currently experiencing. According to the statement, “Beyond overlooking the violent and dangerous reality of the Rabea and Nahda sit-ins, a number of foreign governments and international media outlets have also chosen to overlook the recent increase in killings and attacks that are once again targeting Egypt’s Christian community.”Observers of Egypt’s Coptic community could be forgiven for rubbing their eyes in disbelief upon reading this pronouncement by the Egyptian government. What is so remarkable and, indeed, bewildering about the statement, is that the Egyptian government has repeatedly and forcefully denied the existence of sectarianism on Egyptian soil for decades. For an arm of the government to reference Copts as a target of violence—much less reference the Copts as a distinct community at all—is a stark departure from a long-standing policy of refusing the acknowledgment of sectarian divisions within Egyptian society.
Worth reading.
Permalink (http://arabist.net/blog/2013/8/19/from-citizen-to-problem-the-new-coptic-tokenism)
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/arabistdotnet/~4/0qKWc22EC9U?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email




With or against us (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/arabistdotnet/~3/WUE2a-mOYZY/or-against-us?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email)
Posted: 19 Aug 2013 02:54 AM PDT
Sarah Carr on the new regime's vision of the media.

It looks like we are heading towards media oppression that will be worse than under 2011. There is a public appetite for it and the security bodies have apparently been given a green light to do as they please. Wars on terrorism rely on crude binaries: you are either with us or against us, and this is the constant message being relayed to us (Hegazy even said during the presser yesterday that Egypt is "taking note of who is with it and who is against it"). Attempting to steer through the choppy mess that is Egypt at the moment with such a simplistic approach is disastrous and is intended to reinforce the fiction that there are only two camps in Egypt. This is about bolstering the military regime's strength, and its strength is dependent on the creation of an equal and opposing force against which it must pit itself. The Brotherhood has become its raison d'etre: There is no other reason to justify its current position and current actions.

Sam Lord
20-08-2013, 08:30 PM
Statement of the Tunisian communists for information purposes. I would caution that this a google translation from Arabic which I attempted to put together in a coherent manner but which I may have got horribly incorrect in parts.



Declaration of the Workers Party of Tunisia on Egypt

At dawn this Wednesday, August 14, 2013, the Egyptian Ministry of Interior intervened by force to break up the sit-ins at Rabaa al-Adawiya and Nahdha in the Egyptian capital Cairo, occupied since former President Morsi was deposed.

This intervention was marked by brutal methods and caused violent exchanges between police and some of the protesters, leaving hundreds dead and wounded among the protestors and security forces.

It also resulted in confrontations in Cairo and other cities where institutions and places of worship were destroyed or burned. Following these bloody events Egyptian authorities declared a state of emergency in the capital, Alexandria, Port Said and other regions.

The Workers Party following with great attention the events in Egypt;

Strongly condemns this massacre of protestors and the attack on one of the most important political rights, namely the right to demonstrate and protest, and demands an urgent investigation into the circumstances of this massacre.

- Recognises that the continuing Pro Morsi sit-ins in Cairo, which complicated the political and everyday life, and the harassment and provocations by supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood, could in no way justify this barbarism.

- Considers that the Muslim Brotherhood, exceeding peaceful and non-violent freedom of expression, bear some responsibility for this escalation. They contributed to the deterioration of the situation and thus created the conditions for violent solutions replacing peaceful, democratic political conflict.

-Recalls its position of rejecting the seizure of power by the military and it's robbery of the struggles and sacrifices of the Egyptian People to get rid of the new authoritarian regime of ousted President Morsi, after defeating the corrupt and reactionary regime of Mubarak.

- The Workers' Party reiterates its unconditional support for the Egyptian people and the revolutionary forces, patriotic and progressive, in their struggle to reclaim their revolution and prevent its confiscation by the Muslim Brotherhood, the army and all reactionary forces.

Calls on the Tunisian people to remain vigilant against attempts by the Ennahda party to exploit the deadly clashes in Egypt, to create fear among our people and discourage them from pursuing their mobilization, noting that that the crisis in our country is the consequence of the failure of Ennahdha which, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, seeks to establish a new tyranny.

Confirms that the intransigence of Ennahdha and its refusal to listen to the demands of the majority of society and the majority of political and civil forces is what is exacerbating the crisis and pushing the country towards the unknown.

- Reiterates that the Muslim Brotherhood and the reactionary obscurantist currents who exploit Islam and are constantly divisive try to establish systems of tyranny and economic dependence, unemployment, backwardness and dogmatic narrow-mindedness. Arab and Muslim peoples who struggle for national liberation, and social emancipation and progress can not permit this.

* Long live the struggle of the Egyptian people for the restoration of their revolution.
* Glory to the Arab peoples' struggle against the Brotherhood gangs.

Workers Party (Tunisia)
Tunis, 14 August 2013

C. Flower
21-08-2013, 08:39 AM
Thoughtful blog.


http://www.aucegypt.edu/gapp/cairoreview/Pages/articleDetails.aspx?aid=412



DEMOCRACY VERSUS SECURITY

Rozina Ali (http://www.aucegypt.edu/gapp/cairoreview/Pages/Contributor.aspx?aid=Rozina%20Ali)
August 20, 2013
Days after Egyptian security forces entered Cairo’s Giza and Nasr City districts to break up Islamist sit-ins, the country is reeling: tent homes set aflame, puddles of blood, sidewalks charred by artillery fire, and corpses lined in makeshift morgues. The Ministry of Health estimates the death toll to be over 600, with nearly 4,000 injured. The vast majority of the casualties were supporters of ousted President Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood group. In the midst of this turmoil, many Egyptians have shifted their priority from building a democracy to another concern: security.

By the end of one of the bloodiest weeks in Egyptian history, state TV was covering the aftermath of Wednesday’s events with the headline: “Egypt Fighting Terrorism.” The group that the military considers a ‘monolithic threat’ encompasses the very political voices that would contribute to a pluralistic democracy. In a matter of weeks, however, the military has reframed the challenge facing the country. Initially, the military described those demonstrating against Morsi’s ouster as a danger to the country’s political transition. But twenty-one days into the protest, the military began dubbing the Muslim Brotherhood ‘terrorists,’ a threat to the country’s security, with rhetoric against the Muslim Brotherhood culminating in the violent crackdown on August 14.

Simplifying Egypt into the narrow dualism of ‘us versus them,’ the military has re-established a dominant role for itself on Egypt’s political stage, one that has gone largely unchallenged by the Egyptian public.

This isn’t entirely shocking. At the end of June, millions who poured into the city’s squares were eager for security forces to help rid Egypt of Morsi’s increasingly autocratic rule. The military offered assurances that its intervention was only in the interest of democracy-building: to help a new transitional government restore and safeguard the democratic institutions for which the Morsi regime seemed to show little reverence. But millions who voted for him (and even against him), saw Morsi’s ouster on July 3 as a subversion of the democratic process. As many have noted, not all Muslim Brotherhood supporters took to the streets, and not all who protested the army’s intervention were Muslim Brotherhood members or Morsi supporters.

These distinctions are ignored by armed forces Commander in Chief General Abdul Fatah Al-Sisi, whose pictures have been plastered across parts of Cairo over the past six weeks. After the pro-Morsi demonstrations showed no signs of slowing down, Al-Sisi called Egyptians to the streets in late July to give the military a mandate to “confront possible violence and terrorism.” In doing so, Al-Sisi simultaneously grouped all pro-Morsi/anti-military protesters together, and demonized them as terrorists. With such heated rhetoric, the possibility of political inclusion all but collapsed. How could Egypt compromise with terrorists? By the morning after Al-Sisi’s call, clashes between pro-Morsi supporters and the police left sixty-five Morsi supporters dead.

The August 14 crackdown reaffirmed the army’s categorization of the Muslim Brotherhood and pro-Morsi supporters as terrorists. The military positioned them as such a grave security danger that the attack was justified as a pre-emptive measure, which required not just tear gas and birdshot, but also live ammunition.

The events also underscored what voices the military would consider legitimate in the post-Morsi political landscape. In backing the attack, the country’s political leadership encouraged the political marginalization and forceful repression of a group of Egyptians, many who were peaceful and seeking representation of their vote.

Contrast this with Egypt’s 2011 revolution, when the deaths of over 800 protesters strengthened the people’s resolve to protest and push for Hosni Mubarak’s ouster. Two years later, similar numbers of deaths have prompted cheers from many Egyptians. In the aftermath of the August 14 massacre, Egyptians hung a picture of Al-Sisi at the front gates of the mosque at the Morsi sit-in. Even among many of those critical of military rule, halting the pro-Morsi demonstrations has been welcomed with the logic that the military saved Egypt from the ‘terrorist threat.’

The political repercussions will be long-lasting. The government is considering a ban on the Muslim Brotherhood, a move that would drive the group underground and potentially lead it to violent means. Meanwhile, those pro-Morsi and anti-military protesters who do not belong to the Muslim Brotherhood find themselves on the margins in the two-sided conflict. Also sidelined is the interim government. Its leadership role looks increasingly uncertain: in a state of war, people want security, not messy political processes.

The military has sought to make itself indispensible. In constructing a ‘terrorist’ enemy, violent retribution from Islamists, who have been targeted by force, was hardly unexpected. Some even question whether this was military’s plan all along—to push the Islamists toward violence, so as to justify the need for military dominance. Al-Sisi seems ready to take on this leadership role. As he told the Washington Post recently: “I could have just satisfied myself being a minister of defense and turned my head away from the Egyptians and the problems from which they were suffering every day and just left the Egyptian scene to boil. We changed places—the military and the Egyptians. We wanted to give them comfort, to relieve their suffering, and take the suffering on our shoulders.”

As long as the Muslim Brotherhood is considered a danger to Egypt’s security, many Egyptians will see the military as the only force to combat it. In turn, Al-Sisi will be seen as the only leader to keep the country from spiraling into a civil war. It won’t be surprising if Al-Sisi’s pictures continue smiling at Egyptians for a while to come. But a democratic, political solution remains far off.

Rozina Ali is senior editor of the Cairo Review of Global Affairs. Previously, she was an editor at the Economist Intelligence Unit in New York. She has contributed to Foreign Policy, New York Times' Room for Debate, and Salon. On Twitter @rozina_ali (http://twitter.com/rozina_ali).





It was the "Revolutionary Left" group that was the first I saw try to characterise the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist group, and denied the legitimacy or meaning of the very large vote it got in the elections. With some patience, and political work to organise opposition to the Army and the MB, and to build independent parties of the Left, the Egyptian Left could have given some real leadership. Instead of which they indulged in endless small street scraps with the State forces, while giving credence to the idea that Tamarod and the army should deal with the MB, and thus helped to engineer a military coup, by failing to identify that the US, Egyptian big capital and the Army that backs them, were the real enemy to democracy and civil rights in Egypt.

Armed forces are there to protect the establishment and status quo in every country. Ultimately, they will always step in to "restore order" when the "democratic government" fails to do so.

barrym
21-08-2013, 11:00 AM
Reiterates that the Muslim Brotherhood and the reactionary obscurantist currents who exploit Islam and are constantly divisive try to establish systems of tyranny and economic dependence, unemployment, backwardness and dogmatic narrow-mindedness. Arab and Muslim peoples who struggle for national liberation, and social emancipation and progress can not permit this.
Calls on the Tunisian people to remain vigilant against attempts by the Ennahda party to exploit the deadly clashes in Egypt, to create fear among our people and discourage them from pursuing their mobilization, noting that that the crisis in our country is the consequence of the failure of Ennahdha which, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, seeks to establish a new tyranny.


That's saying it!!

Note the comparison between the supposedly peaceful transition in Tunisia (far from it actually, just less bloodshed so far) and the Brothers...

Also, a couple of pieces in the NYT in the last days, covering the US military's interest, the media backing the army, resulting in a one sided slant and various pieces on the political situation.

Fluid is the word to apply.

btw, should have been Ashton in a previous post, trying to cobble something together today.

barrym
21-08-2013, 11:14 AM
Thoughtful blog.


http://www.aucegypt.edu/gapp/cairoreview/Pages/articleDetails.aspx?aid=412




It was the "Revolutionary Left" group that was the first I saw try to characterise the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist group, and denied the legitimacy or meaning of the very large vote it got in the elections. With some patience, and political work to organise opposition to the Army and the MB, and to build independent parties of the Left, the Egyptian Left could have given some real leadership. Instead of which they indulged in endless small street scraps with the State forces, while giving credence to the idea that Tamarod and the army should deal with the MB, and thus helped to engineer a military coup, by failing to identify that the US, Egyptian big capital and the Army that backs them, were the real enemy to democracy and civil rights in Egypt.

Armed forces are there to protect the establishment and status quo in every country. Ultimately, they will always step in to "restore order" when the "democratic government" fails to do so.

Yes, but, Egypt is not (yet?) normalised in terms of left/right. The revolutionary left are just that, a ragtag group of left leaning individuals, loose alliances, rent a mob, etc., who want to kick ass with the 'powers that be' since the original rows in Cairo before Mubarak was dumped.
The groupings at the moment are, VERY roughly, Brotherhood (pre revolution), Brotherhood (post revolution), the "security forces" (including all the armed groupings, new and old managers of the army, police etc), anti Morsi policy, anti revolution, anti everything, and the silent majority.

C. Flower
21-08-2013, 02:25 PM
Yes, but, Egypt is not (yet?) normalised in terms of left/right. The revolutionary left are just that, a ragtag group of left leaning individuals, loose alliances, rent a mob, etc., who want to kick ass with the 'powers that be' since the original rows in Cairo before Mubarak was dumped.
The groupings at the moment are, VERY roughly, Brotherhood (pre revolution), Brotherhood (post revolution), the "security forces" (including all the armed groupings, new and old managers of the army, police etc), anti Morsi policy, anti revolution, anti everything, and the silent majority.

Not so silent. They are inclined to come out on the streets, even if the army has done its best to make the streets unappetising.

The groupings I observed on the ground were - workers and youths, some with football clubs, some with the MB periphery, some unaligned. Bourgeois oppositionists like the Nasserites - farmers and professionals, lawyers. Radical youth and young graduates - no future, no living wage. Some of them unaligned, others with April 6th and other groups. Some being played by the US no doubt. Trade union branches, factory workers and doctors. The middle classes and professionals generally - some with MB, some not. Religion as much as class might determine that. Small shop keepers, traders - many just wanting the streets clear of protest, urging the army to act. The rich, officer class and the invisible rich and powerful - with the army. Some went as tourists to Tahrir once it looked safe. Want to suppress all opposition and enforce permanent austerity, and continue with rampant corruption. The army itself is a big property owner and owner of industry - a weird kind of economic state within the state. The State media - with the army. The US - in favour of US interests, generally seen as ultimately enforceable by the army.

Saoirse go Deo
21-08-2013, 02:38 PM
Mubarak to be released:

http://www.thejournal.ie/mubarak-release-1047475-Aug2013/

C. Flower
21-08-2013, 05:29 PM
The constitutional commission has reported and is recommending, it seems, amongst other things, that parties based on religion should be banned.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/79525/Egypt/Politics-/UPDATED-Amended-draft-of-Egyptian-constitution-pas.aspx

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/79368/Egypt/Politics-/Technical-committee-to-propose-radical-changes-to-.aspx

Binn Beal
21-08-2013, 07:22 PM
The amended constitution will be discussed by a 50-member assembly representing Egyptian society It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

C. Flower
25-08-2013, 11:13 AM
It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

It sounds like the Egyptian branch of Citizen.ie - also funded by the US via an "NGO" which according to yesterday's Irish Times is not so unaligned after all.

The Arabist blog is pointing to the vigorous post hoc justification and rewriting of history that is going on.

One example - "How Morsi was freed from jail by Hamas and how Tahrir Square was full of Palestinians" - this is just a new onslaught from pro regime side that has always tried to portray the opposition to the army regime as foreign inspired. Written by a guy based on the fairly infamouns Georgetown University, US.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/how-hamas-helped-morsi-escape#full

And from Counterpunch, a full on reiteration of the "Civil Society trumps democracy" line also by a US writer.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/19/a-continuing-revolution-and-a-civil-society-coup/

There should be no mistake that the US Government is thoroughly behind the coup, and worked for it on the ground.

C. Flower
03-09-2013, 12:59 AM
Threats now to refuse the Muslim Brotherhood NGO status being seen as a move to illegalise again.

MB has called for a protest tomorrow.

http://www.reuters.com/video/2013/09/02/egypts-brotherhood-under-legal-threat-as?videoId=265029384&videoChannel=1

C. Flower
04-09-2013, 11:38 AM
More pressure on and harrassment of the MB, which is being illegalised (again) by stealth.

Media restrictions on Islamic tv stations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/10284540/Egypts-Islamist-crackdown-intensifies.html

C. Flower
04-09-2013, 02:45 PM
Tony Blair supports the dictatorship and declares jihad on Islam.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/how-the-west-should-respond-to-chemical-weapons-in-syria-by-tony-blair

Pearse Monnet
04-09-2013, 03:43 PM
The military have been calling the shots in Egypt since the overthrow of the weak, Western backed King Farouk in 1952. This organisation, the Free Officers Movement, is a self-perpetuating oligarchic clique. They are still in control of Egypt – elections, parliament, constitution it doesn’t matter – they are behind the scenes.

Liberals have named the turbulence in the Middle and Near East over the last few years to the “Arab Spring”. If the West insists on using a meteorological word, then I fear we are at the start of a “long Arab Winter”. Factors like economic strains of overpopulation, along with lingering disquiet about Israel and Iraq make this entire region a simmering, bubbling cauldron.

There is no doubt Islamism (political Islam) is on the increase. We in the West saw what happened when Islamists took power in Afghanistan. Can you imagine a string of Taliban-like states across that part of the world?

C. Flower
04-09-2013, 03:51 PM
The military have been calling the shots in Egypt since the overthrow of the weak, Western backed King Farouk in 1952. This organisation, the Free Officers Movement, is a self-perpetuating oligarchic clique. They are still in control of Egypt – elections, parliament, constitution it doesn’t matter – they are behind the scenes.

Liberals have named the turbulence in the Middle and Near East over the last few years to the “Arab Spring”. If the West insists on using a meteorological word, then I fear we are at the start of a “long Arab Winter”. Factors like economic strains of overpopulation, along with lingering disquiet about Israel and Iraq make this entire region a simmering, bubbling cauldron.

There is no doubt Islamism (political Islam) is on the increase. We in the West saw what happened when Islamists took power in Afghanistan. Can you imagine a string of Taliban-like states across that part of the world?

Welcome :)

That is a good description of the Egyptian army.

Surely, many of these states were secular democracies, or on the way to secular democracy, decades ago. Is it not persistent outside interference and the failure or crushing of local democracies that led people to give movements like the Muslim Brotherhood a shot ? Do you think the army regime is better than the MB, and if so, in what way ? The MB at least did not illegalise its opposition.

The liberal Arab Spring movement had no answers to the economic predicament of North Africa, with high unemployment, rising prices and IMF regimes. It is inevitable that crisis will continue until these things are solved.

Sam Lord
04-09-2013, 03:55 PM
Is it not persistent outside interference and the failure or crushing of local democracies that led people to give movements like the Muslim Brotherhood a shot ?

You might add to that the virtual collapse of the working class movement internationally.

C. Flower
04-09-2013, 04:12 PM
You might add to that the virtual collapse of the working class movement internationally.

I think (although I might be wrong) that that collapse is the most extreme in Europe, which might colour our view of it.

The collapse of the working class movement to some extent was a consequence of the very long post WW2 credit bubble which appeared to offer a glowing middle class future for all. People were persuaded to think of themselves in every way other than by the class of which they were part - gender, religion, which side of the wall, etc. etc.

Pearse Monnet
04-09-2013, 04:33 PM
Thanks for the welcome.
I plan on popping in and out of politicalworld.org as i can.
A militarily-strong, culturally-confident, economically self-sustaining Egypt as seen by Abdel Gamal Nasser in the 1952 revolution was never going to be tolerated by the imperialists in the West. The creation of the envisaged United Arab Republic - encompassing Egypt, Syria, South Yemen, in time Libya and whether ever other Middle Eastern and Near Eastern states could threatened western interests.
For a start if such a secular, quazi-socialist, large state were to come into being and last, the word Israel would have years in brackets after it; something like (1948 - 197?).
Alas, after Nasser, the military did a deal with America and have been gladly rewarded ever since. The government of Egypt gets an estimated 1.4 Billion from the US exchequer every year, making it the single largest recipient of American Aid after Israel.
As for the Muslim Brotherhood, the Brits have been funding them since the 19th century.
Morsi's government was never gonna last, most people can see that now in hindsight. There is deep, deep antagonism between on one hand that caste within the politico-social system that supports the military, and on the other hand the Islamists. Some crisis was inevitably gonna develop and rupture the system.
I fear we may be at the start of a long Arab winter.

Sam Lord
04-09-2013, 04:33 PM
I think (although I might be wrong) that that collapse is the most extreme in Europe, which might colour our view of it.


It was pretty much removed as an option for the people of the Middle East. The left failed them like everything else ... where else were they to turn but to Islam.



The collapse of the working class movement to some extent was a consequence of the very long post WW2 credit bubble which appeared to offer a glowing middle class future for all. People were persuaded to think of themselves in every way other than by the class of which they were part - gender, religion, which side of the wall, etc. etc.

The collapse of the Soviet Union was also a big factor (though socialism had long gone there). It gave the bourgeoisie and their ideologues great leverage in banging on about the failure of communism etc. It was presented as something that was tried but hadn't worked. Though if that attitude was apopted towards everything we wouldn't be flying in aeroplanes today.

C. Flower
04-09-2013, 04:48 PM
Thanks for the welcome.
I plan on popping in and out of politicalworld.org as i can.
A militarily-strong, culturally-confident, economically self-sustaining Egypt as seen by Abdel Gamal Nasser in the 1952 revolution was never going to be tolerated by the imperialists in the West. The creation of the envisaged United Arab Republic - encompassing Egypt, Syria, South Yemen, in time Libya and whether ever other Middle Eastern and Near Eastern states could threatened western interests.
For a start if such a secular, quazi-socialist, large state were to come into being and last, the word Israel would have years in brackets after it; something like (1948 - 197?).
Alas, after Nasser, the military did a deal with America and have been gladly rewarded ever since. The government of Egypt gets an estimated 1.4 Billion from the US exchequer every year, making it the single largest recipient of American Aid after Israel.
As for the Muslim Brotherhood, the Brits have been funding them since the 19th century.
Morsi's government was never gonna last, most people can see that now in hindsight. There is deep, deep antagonism between on one hand that caste within the politico-social system that supports the military, and on the other hand the Islamists. Some crisis was inevitably gonna develop and rupture the system.
I fear we may be at the start of a long Arab winter.

Delighted to hear it.

Yes, this is all true - the MB have been backed by the US for decades, too.

I don't think that a stable army state in Egypt is a possibility long term. None of the problems that caused people to rise up against Mubarak have been solved. In fact they are worse.

The "failed state" outcome which is basically barbarism, appears to be where things are going under the present system, if we allow it.

Pearse Monnet
04-09-2013, 04:50 PM
i remember talking to a fella in a pub once who was explaining to me about a book he was reading. In the book, which i dont know the name of, the author argued that there is a relationship between the growth of religious piety among muslims in hitherto secular countries and their reaction against what they saw as the shallowness, and vaccousness of 1960's Western culture.
From after the second world war onwards there was a huge number of Americans and English Twenty-somethings travelling around north Africa and parts of the Middle East. This was the first time many people native to that part of the world saw young Westerners and were appalled at their hedonism.
William Burroughs in Morocco in the early 50's may have been in a small minority of Western thrill-seekers but by the 60's there was a huge numbers.
Concurrant to the hedonism of the West there was a reaction in the Muslim world that saw a growth in political concerns about the path that Muslim societies was taking.

Pearse Monnet
04-09-2013, 04:56 PM
It’s interesting to keep in mind that there was a time in a lot of Muslim countries when secularism and liberalism could be found. Many countries like Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and others were more relaxed about Western-styled norms 50 years ago than they are today.
I remember listening to a fella in a pub once who was explaining to me about a book he was reading. In the book, which i don’t know the name of, the author argued that there is a relationship between the growth of religious piety among Muslims in hitherto secular countries and their reaction against what they saw as the shallowness, and vacuousness of 1960's Western culture.
From after the Second World War onwards there were a huge number of Americans and English Twenty-somethings travelling around North Africa and parts of the Middle East. This was the first time many people native to that part of the world saw young Westerners and were appalled at their hedonism.
William Burroughs in Morocco in the early 50's may have been in a small minority of Western thrill-seekers but by the 60's there was a huge numbers.
Concurrant to the hedonism of the West there was a reaction in the Muslim world that saw a growth in political concerns about the path those Muslim societies was taking.

Sam Lord
04-09-2013, 05:04 PM
I would recommend this book to anyone on the left interested in the Middle East ... whether one agrees with the analyses it contains or not. Is is extracts concerning the Middle East from the political diary of Enver Hoxha between 1958 and 1983. He gave a great deal of thought to Islam and its political significance in his time (even more relevent today) and felt that it had to be approached in a dialectical manner. Cactus will, of course, take the view that communists should just attack religion. :)

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/ebooks/reflections_on_the_middle_east.pdf

C. Flower
06-09-2013, 02:54 PM
The Military Government has announced that the Muslim Brotherhood will be "dissolved."

Dr. FIVE
06-09-2013, 03:29 PM
weren't they officially proscribed under Mubarak too?

C. Flower
06-09-2013, 04:00 PM
weren't they officially proscribed under Mubarak too?


For decades. They organised abroad and underground.

Dr. FIVE
06-09-2013, 04:01 PM
They were fairly free to organise openly according to cables I was reading during the week

C. Flower
06-09-2013, 04:13 PM
They were fairly free to organise openly according to cables I was reading during the week

Interesting. I would like to read that.

Until the Egyptian army is dismantled and done away with, by force if need be, there will never be democracy in Egypt.

Dr. FIVE
06-09-2013, 05:22 PM
Interesting. I would like to read that.



Free to speak at the American University Cairo no less


IN A TWO-HOUR LONG NOVEMBER 21 APPEARANCE AT THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OF CAIRO, MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD (MB) DEPUTY SUPREME GUIDE MOHAMED HABIB DELIVERED A BRIEF LECTURE ON "THE RIGHTS OF CITIZENSHIP," AND THEN TOOK QUESTIONS FROM THE CROWD COVERING A RANGE OF TOPICS, FROM HIS VIEWS OF THE U.S., DEMOCRACY AND EGYPTIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM, TO THE RIGHTS OF BAH'AIS, WOMEN, AND CHRISTIANS. WHILE HIS REMARKS DID NOT BREAK ANY NEW GROUND, THE SIMPLE FACT THAT HABIB SPOKE, IN AN UNPRECEDENTED APPEARANCE AND TO A LARGELY WELCOMING CROWD AT THE ACADEMIC BASTION OF EGYPT'S SECULAR ELITE, IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE CONTINUING CONTRADICTION OF THE MB'S "BANNED BUT TOLERATED" STATUS, THE CONFIDENCE LEVEL OF THE MB, AND THE SUSTAINED INTEREST OF EGYPTIAN SOCIETY AT LARGE REGARDING THE ORGANIZATION. END SUMMARY.

Quite a bit there to read. http://cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=06CAIRO6963#para-181987-1

This is from 2006 so interesting to get a pre-Spring picture or at least the US's view of it.

C. Flower
06-09-2013, 06:20 PM
Free to speak at the American University Cairo no less

Quite a bit there to read. http://cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=06CAIRO6963#para-181987-1

This is from 2006 so interesting to get a pre-Spring picture or at least the US's view of it.

I will not forget the creepiness that came out of there last day of the occupation in the Square (it is just outside it) for a long time. There was an interesting interview on Drive Time tonight: the interviewee, who was Egyptian. He said that the MB had been banned by Nasser after they tried to assassinate him. They were "banned but tolerated" under Sadat and Mubarak. Said it was not possible to have democracy if the country's biggest political organisation was banned.

Dr. FIVE
06-09-2013, 06:48 PM
Said it was not possible to have democracy if the country's biggest political organisation was banned.

I think many of us, all over the world, would argue the opposite :)

C. Flower
07-09-2013, 03:38 PM
A string of arrests, as expected...

a human rights lawyer, and anti-torture activist in Suez

http://www.dignityinstitute.dk/servicenavigation/news-and-activities/news/2013/9/human-rights-lawyer-arrested-by-the-egyptian-military.aspx

Others- journalists and members of Revolutionary Socialists.

C. Flower
09-09-2013, 08:37 AM
Haitham Mohammedein, member of the Revolutionary Socialists, was arrested and charged with being a member of a "secret organisation" that planned the overthrow of the State. RS (linked with our SWP) is an openly organising party of the left. It states that it is a revolutionary party.
The RS has not taken a consistent and clear stand against the political role of the army since the fall of Mubarak and helped to create confusion about its character and intent. As the RS did not defend the Moslem Brotherhood's political rights, it must be hard for them to call on others to support the RS's rights to organise.

Gigi Ibrahim's tweets follow this closely.

https://twitter.com/Gsquare86

C. Flower
12-09-2013, 12:08 AM
Tamarod falling apart now it has done its job.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/tamarod-members-upper-egypt-submit-collective-resignations

C. Flower
16-09-2013, 05:50 PM
Protest in central Cairo, Talaat Harb, against curfew and State of Emergency, via Gigi Ibrahim (rev. soc.)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BUTFBw2IEAAWsyV.jpg

Dr. FIVE
23-09-2013, 02:31 PM
banned

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/23/us-egypt-brotherhood-urgent-idUSBRE98M0HL20130923


"The court bans the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood organization and its non-governmental organization and all the activities that it participates in and any organization derived from it," said the presiding judge Mohammed al-Sayed.

The court ordered the government to seize the Brotherhood's funds and administer its frozen assets.

C. Flower
23-09-2013, 02:40 PM
banned

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/23/us-egypt-brotherhood-urgent-idUSBRE98M0HL20130923

Next will come the "suicide" bombs and we will be told that the M B is responsible.

Saoirse go Deo
25-09-2013, 07:19 PM
New left wing group being launched:


A new group called the Revolution Path Front will be launched Tuesday in Cairo by a group of political activists who say they aim to work towards the revolution's goals of "bread, freedom and social justice."

According to a statement posted on the front's Facebook page, a press conference is planned to take place Tuesday at 12pm at the Syndicate of Commercial Professionals in Cairo.

On its Facebook page, the front announced its aim fight for the "redistribution of wealth among poor and low-income Egyptians."

Among the expected participants at the Tuesday press conference where the group will be announced are prominent journalists Wael Gamal and Khaled El-Balshi, political activist Alaa Abdel-Fatah, leftist labour lawyer Haytham Mohamadein, renowned writer Ahdaf Soueif, and April 6 Youth Movement co-founder Ahmed Maher.
Read on:

http://www.albawaba.com/news/egypt-revolutionary-path-front-522501

I know nothing about those named but it sounds somewhat encouraging. They reject both the military rule and the Muslim Brotherhood

C. Flower
06-10-2013, 07:42 AM
A very revealing video from last winter has been leaked from the Egyptian army in which Sisi discusses with others how to control the media and prevent negative reporting on the army.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/04/world/middleeast/in-leaked-video-egyptian-army-officers-debate-how-to-sway-news-media.html?pagewanted=1&smid=tw-share

C. Flower
07-10-2013, 09:24 PM
More than 51 people killed trying to get to Tahrir Square to protest in support of the Muslim Brotherhood this morning. There was a report from Belle True in Cairo this morning on RTE (radio 1). She was saying that Morsi supporters were attacked by residents in the areas around the Square: businesses around the Square were in many cases opposed to all and any protests because of the disruption to trade.

C. Flower
08-10-2013, 07:40 AM
TV2 and FT this morning are by consensus now talking about "insurgents" in Egypt. There was an attack on a telecom facility in Cairo.

Horribly predictable.

C. Flower
08-10-2013, 09:27 PM
University students -pro and anti Morsi, protesting against the Army.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/anti-army-protests-staged-at-egyptian-universities-1.1554282

C. Flower
20-10-2013, 01:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9LXdDM7IYw&feature=youtu.be&a
Ultras rocking the streets in opposition to the army.

C. Flower
24-10-2013, 08:35 PM
The Miltary government has produced a draft law to severely restrict strikes and protests.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/mursi-followers-call-protests-egypt-considers-draconian-restrictions-demonstrations

Morsi's trial is scheduled for 4th November.

C. Flower
02-11-2013, 12:04 PM
A very useful article on Egypt that goes some way to explaining the role of the military and why liberals and the left have allied themselves with it - also, the different roads that could be taken now.
It's weakness as an analysis is that it does not examine the economic underpinnings of the Arab Spring and reactions, and does not deal with the influence of western powers in the middle east and Africa, but it is still very helpful in giving part of the picture.

http://arabist.net/blog/2013/11/1/in-translation

Pearse Monnet
03-11-2013, 08:15 PM
good article C. informative.

I just saw the Egyptian film “The Yacoubian Building” there last night. Recommended. The film is set in this building in Cairo called the Yacoubian Building that is a metaphor for contemporary Egypt. The stories of each of the primary characters are intertwined and played out. The issues dealt with in the film (and the novel its based on) include tension between religious and secular views of Egypt, tension between ‘new money’ and ‘old money’, tension between cities and rural Egypt, and between women and men in the roles they find themselves in given economic conditions and the differing views of Egypt.

The film was made in 2005 and a big part of the story is the increasing growth in confidence of the Muslim Brotherhood in its opposition to the state. It gives a good view of Egypt just before things exploded. I got it on loan from South Dublin Libraries but I’m sure its on Netflix. Highly recommended.

The author of the book Alaa Al-Aswany is a secularist, social-democrat writer. Al-Aswany is considered one of the founding members of the political movement Kefaya (Arabic for “enough”), a spontaneous grassroots coalition that organized against the planned transfer of power from Mubarak to his son Gamal.

C. Flower
03-11-2013, 08:56 PM
good article C. informative.

I just saw the Egyptian film “The Yacoubian Building” there last night. Recommended. The film is set in this building in Cairo called the Yacoubian Building that is a metaphor for contemporary Egypt. The stories of each of the primary characters are intertwined and played out. The issues dealt with in the film (and the novel its based on) include tension between religious and secular views of Egypt, tension between ‘new money’ and ‘old money’, tension between cities and rural Egypt, and between women and men in the roles they find themselves in given economic conditions and the differing views of Egypt.

The film was made in 2005 and a big part of the story is the increasing growth in confidence of the Muslim Brotherhood in its opposition to the state. It gives a good view of Egypt just before things exploded. I got it on loan from South Dublin Libraries but I’m sure its on Netflix. Highly recommended.

The author of the book Alaa Al-Aswany is a secularist, social-democrat writer. Al-Aswany is considered one of the founding members of the political movement Kefaya (Arabic for “enough”), a spontaneous grassroots coalition that organized against the planned transfer of power from Mubarak to his son Gamal.

Thanks, I'll try to get it to watch.

People here find it hard to understand how people who think of themselves as revolutionaries have ended up supporting a military dictatorship, rather than an Islamic, but popular and elected party.
Some of the left have come out unequivocally against the military, but more have said " a plague on both your houses."

What is missing from the politics of these groups is class consciousness and anti-imperialism. There is an illusion that it's possible to get economic development and democratic reform without tackling the position of the military and without fundamental economic change. I was constantly surprised in Egypt at how low the awareness was of the extent to which Mubarak was the US's man, and an acceptance of a view of the US as a democratising force that I had thought dead decades ago.

C. Flower
13-11-2013, 05:25 PM
Via Sarah Carr


BREAKING: Egypt to lift state of emergency and curfew on Thursday, government minister tells Reuters.

Gas canister shortages are hitting the poor, and generally Egypt is at an impasse.

C. Flower
19-11-2013, 03:53 PM
Young Egypt is on the move tonight: demonstration in Tahrir coinciding with Egypt - Ghana match - big screens, Ultras chasing out Sisi supporters, Revolutionaries carrying banners of the dead, April 6th movement...http://t.co/UbmTPNAyhL


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZcerwzIIAArifz.jpg:large

C. Flower
19-11-2013, 04:08 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZcjdbrIAAA2lPd.jpg:large

The monument put up in the middle of Tahrir by the army has been trashed and topped with a coffin draped in Egyptian flag.

C. Flower
19-11-2013, 05:51 PM
Sisi and Morsi, both in a noose.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZc7lX1CIAABd4G.jpg:large

Dr. FIVE
19-11-2013, 05:53 PM
er..stopped to watch the match


https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/p480x480/1455875_612158582162992_817855664_n.png

C. Flower
19-11-2013, 06:20 PM
er..stopped to watch the match


https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/p480x480/1455875_612158582162992_817855664_n.png

Egypt v Ghana - at least three big screens up ... :)

C. Flower
20-11-2013, 02:59 PM
Tear gas followed the match.

There was a car bomb today in Sinai and the dubious "al Qaeda" franchise is mentioned, although no one claimed the bombing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25013655

C. Flower
27-11-2013, 03:06 PM
Mohamed Fadel Fahmy @Repent11

(http://twitter.com/Repent11) 15 Anti-coup females sentenced 15 yrs in absentia in Alexandria. 14 females present in court sentenced to 11 yrs & 1 month 7 of them minors

Charged with protesting, balloons involved, so far as I can make out.

Dr. FIVE
28-11-2013, 01:05 AM
http://socialistworker.co.uk/art/36945/How+new+revolutionary+protests+are+resisting+the+s tate+in+Egypt

C. Flower
29-11-2013, 03:41 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/28/us-egypt-arrests-idUSBRE9AR0MW20131128

Contrast between the three year sentence for the "eye sniper" cop who shot out protestors eyes November 2011 and the Muslim Brotherhood girls, as young as 15, sentenced to 10 years + for protesting peacefully.

C. Flower
29-11-2013, 06:58 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaQjQNeCUAAqqz_.jpg:large

C. Flower
29-11-2013, 07:14 PM
http://socialistworker.co.uk/art/36945/How+new+revolutionary+protests+are+resisting+the+s tate+in+Egypt

A useful report on the situation in Egypt and on the SWP line. The SWP/Revolutionary Socialists went on to the streets to bring down the elected Mursi government as part of Tamarod, and did not take a clear class position of defending the gains of the uprising against Mubarak. In the Pres. elections they had spent their time fighting police instead of getting involved in a political debate against the military and MB. They seem now to be trying to cover their tracks and recover credibility in another front organisation. They encouraged illusions that the military could secure a situation for progress beyond the MB. In fact they had the same line that John Kerry, State Department spokesman has. The MB themselves had vacillated towards deals and support for the army - it didn't do them any good. It is pretty clear I would have thought that all anti-military parties should unite to deal with the army - not an easy job, and inevitably a temporary alliance, but impossible unless there is an alliance of the class forces that are being oppressed by the military.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/16/rseg-j16.html


The Revolution Front (RF) organised the demonstrations. Hatem explained the RF’s roots. “We formed the RF to counter the deep polarisation that followed the fall of Mursi,” he said.

“On the one hand there were those who were totally with the military and supported the attacks on the Brotherhood. On the other were Brotherhood supporters.

“The RF was a way to bring together all those who oppose the military and do not want the return of Mursi. Along with the RS it includes the April 6 Movement and many independent leftists such as writer Adhaf Soueif.”