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Saoirse go Deo
22-05-2013, 05:17 PM
POLICE say an horrific attack in London during which a man was beheaded and two men shot is being treated as a terrorist incident.

The Government's Cobra emergency committee will be meeting in the next hour to discuss the incident understood to involve a serving soldier.

Eye witnesses said two men ran the soldier down then jumped from their car and attacked him with a machete.

Others said the victim had been beheaded. Another described seeing a man wearing a Help for Heroes T-shirt being attacked with a machete-style knife and dumped in a south-east London street.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10436704._/

Horrific.

C. Flower
22-05-2013, 05:21 PM
"The circumstances causing the incident are not yet clear. It's been suggested it was the product of a road traffic accident, but that's pure speculation.

Sounds horrific. Bizarre that they did not leave the scene for twenty minutes.

Wait for full reports, I think.

Saoirse go Deo
22-05-2013, 05:23 PM
Sounds horrific. Bizarre that they did not leave the scene for twenty minutes.

Wait for full reports, I think.

Apparently they stood around asking people to take photos, then attacked the police when they showed up. That's unconfirmed though.

C. Flower
22-05-2013, 05:25 PM
Apparently they stood around asking people to take photos, then attacked the police when they showed up. That's unconfirmed though.

If true that this was an unprovoked attack, and they did that, you would have to ask what they were on.
It is a bizarre report.

Saoirse go Deo
22-05-2013, 05:44 PM
Eyewitness:

https://twitter.com/BOYADEE

Media are all over him asking for an interview.

5intheface
22-05-2013, 06:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EROXP8JDG9M

Disturbing video of attacker talking to camera with body lying on the road.

Not graphic but apparent attacker's hands are covered in blood.

Shaadi
22-05-2013, 06:32 PM
Bizarre and sad in the extreme, but it just goes to show you that all the hype about security measures and technology are of no use when someone with a knife or a car can cause mayhem without access to explosives. Imagine if that had happened during the Olympics.

C. Flower
22-05-2013, 07:02 PM
Eyewitness:

https://twitter.com/BOYADEE

Media are all over him asking for an interview.


Boya Dee ‏@BOYADEE (https://twitter.com/BOYADEE)4h (https://twitter.com/BOYADEE/status/337211580825600001)
People were asking whyyy whyyy they were just saying we've had enough! They looked like they were on sutn! Then they start waving a recolver


...

C. Flower
22-05-2013, 07:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EROXP8JDG9M

Disturbing video of attacker talking to camera with body lying on the road.

Not graphic but apparent attacker's hands are covered in blood.

No sound. He was talking to camera.
Wonder if ITV have the audio ?

Simonsays
22-05-2013, 07:15 PM
Incredibly shocking. A horrific attack.

5intheface
22-05-2013, 07:19 PM
No sound. He was talking to camera.
Wonder if ITV have the audio ?

The sound is there when I watch it?

C. Flower
22-05-2013, 07:56 PM
The sound is there when I watch it?

Thanks, got it now. Mainly talked over. A young guy with a London accent says "I apologise but in our land we have to see this all the time."

He must have been identified by now.

fluffybiscuits
22-05-2013, 10:39 PM
Horrific attack


Meanwhile Britian has underage fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq

http://inserbia.info/news/2013/05/uk-underage-soldiers-served-in-iraq-afghanistan-frontline-operations/

fluffybiscuits
22-05-2013, 11:01 PM
EDL acting up over the whole situation

https://twitter.com/edlnews


Pls RT: #EDL members call for the burning of Mosques @metpolice http://shar.es/ZygQK #woolwich

Buddha
22-05-2013, 11:20 PM
I've written things a dozen times here and deleted them. I don't know what to say. Never ceases to shock me, the cruelty of the human being, and yet it is only because most people are so kind and good that I am shocked by such cruelty. That poor man. His poor family. All the poor people who live and die in war zones around the world. And for what?

C. Flower
22-05-2013, 11:25 PM
Stoned, mentally unhinged, ptsd, ex military? I'm trying to think of something comparable. Maybe the D. C. Sniper?
The accent and expressions were London, not Islamabad.

Dr. FIVE
23-05-2013, 12:02 AM
Grim

http://anony.ws/i/2013/05/23/M3zwa.png

via Brian Whelan

Simonsays
23-05-2013, 12:38 AM
It is hard to know what to say about today's events. It was so horrific. You cannot but wonder how anyone could do that to another human being.

I cannot conceive of any reason other than mental illness why anyone would have done what was done today. No matter what one's politics, to attack someone on a street and cut their head off, having run them down in a car, cannot have any rational explanation. It makes no sense logically, tactically, militarily. No matter how much one is motivated by suffering in one's own country, beheading someone on the street is so horrific as to beyond rational explanation. Even from the point of view of Jihadists and their wars, today's actions, and how they reacted afterwards, are inexplicable.

It challenges society to ask how we as a community deal with those in our midst so out of touch with reality, and blinded by irrational emotions towards someone they see on the street.

We can already see how the EDL are trying to whip up anti-Islamic hatred. The EDL seem to consist of a mix of those who live by hate and those themselves blinded by irrational phobias and too dumb to realise they are being manipulated. Reading #Woolwich on twitter was in itself frightening for the hatred let loose - of people advocating burning down local mosques and cutting the throats of the next Muslim you see.

Kev Bar
23-05-2013, 01:34 AM
Stoned, mentally unhinged, ptsd, ex military? I'm trying to think of something comparable. Maybe the D. C. Sniper?
The accent and expressions were London, not Islamabad.

Da oppression in Clapham man!

Pure Don De Lillo.

Youtube jihadi X factor crack piped cleaver.

All so very very modern.

And so terribly terribly insanely dumb

Kev Bar
23-05-2013, 01:37 AM
Footage

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/british-soldier-hacked-to-death-in-suspected-london-terror-attack-1.525485

Controller
23-05-2013, 02:23 AM
I do not believe that this is a terrorist attack. I wouldn't be supprised if it comes out that the victim had sex with the sister of one of the attackers.....or something like that

dammit_im_mad
23-05-2013, 07:24 AM
"this sickening atrocity in London is what we are paying the same kind of people to do in Syria"
- Tweet by George Galloway

Nailed it in one George!! ;-)

GG hostile Link here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/22/british-politician-compares-london-attack-to-u-k-policy-in-syria/

The comments are interesting for a WP post.

surprise surprise they left this one up:
"1:47 AM GMT+0100
Islam must be destroyed around the world at all costs. Hail to Breavik. It must start NOW!

[Edit mod SL]

re: mod. Must we indeed? even when referring to an imperialist rag like the Washington Post ? Well thats your opinion! FYI I only used words from the oxford dictionary.

morticia
23-05-2013, 12:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EROXP8JDG9M

Disturbing video of attacker talking to camera with body lying on the road.

Not graphic but apparent attacker's hands are covered in blood.

Probably the same, or a similar, clip to the one shown on RTE 9 news last night.

I am utterly disgusted. They should bring back hanging for this, there's no chance of a miscarriage of justice here. This is beyond disgusting for Kabul, never mind London.

What is the point in butchering a 20something squaddie who is not responsible for any of the policy decisions made by British politicians? I would grant that not all decisions made at the top by previous UK governments were either well thought out or effective ...the Iraq war, for starters....but this is NOT the way to register a protest.

And frankly, the effect, when viewed from the perspective of Islamic activism, will be profoundly counterproductive... making a martyr out of a soldier is probably more likely to harden the resolve of many already jingoistic Brits than to actually put them off any further Middle Eastern misadventures.

I am equally disgusted at the EDF. The murderers neither looked nor sounded like ethnic Muslims, at a guess, the attacker with the bloody knife and machete in each hand sounded like an Afro-Caribbean product of London. Yeah, maybe they were converted and radicalised by the Internet, probably because they were bored NEETS (not in education, employment or training) with no prospects.

So why go blow up mosques? Unless you want to start nationwide race riots; always an attractive thought to the local Neo Nazi thugs, I guess.

I'm afraid that one of the reasons I got myself and family out of the UK was the vast amount of underemployed, totally uneducated youth who had little enough to do other than cause trouble. Add the racial and immigration issues, and the uncontrollable overcrowding and you have a total tinderbox.

Dr. FIVE
23-05-2013, 12:15 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BK8hUPzCMAAX41z.jpg

C. Flower
23-05-2013, 12:24 PM
Van Gogh, in particular.

dammit_im_mad
23-05-2013, 01:32 PM
may I ask why the double standard here Cass?

When I linked to the al nusra "heart" video in syria, I was moderated, but people have linked here to this ugly video without censure.

What about all that "thinking long and hard about linking to atrocity videos" lecture you responded to me with??

Can't have it both ways.

Also, IMHO morticia's post full of conjectures and comments about "NEETS" is seriously bordering on racist.

This kind of stuff happens every other day in countries such as Syria, funded by groups financially, militarily and politically supported by the US and other western friends of ours. Usually with little or response from our MSM. Unless of course the "allies" wish to use it as an excuse to further their aims.

This is a disgusting barbaric act of murder, but no more so than what our "allies" support and enable in Syria, Libya, yemen, afghanistan, parts of africa every other week. Events which the murderers claim as the reason for the act.

In fact these atrocities are nothing new. And not limited to "NEETS" either!! The guy in this picture evidently had a job. what was his excuse??

[Mod Dr. Five - No severed heads thank you]

(Note: the moderated picture was a grainy image of a british army soldier holding up two heads he had cut off in malaya. you can access the image in the commentary on this thread (https://www.indymedia.ie/article/103676) since it is not allowed here)

responding disproportionately to this event is effectively saying that "some lives are more important than others".

I did not know the man who was killed. My deepest sympathies go out to his family.
Neither do I know any of the many people similarly murdered in Syria, Libya, Afghanistan as a result of imperialist foreign policy.
My deepest sympathies go out equally to their families. All are victims. All are equally important. All are human beings with feelings, all feel pain, all suffer, all should have the same rights and respect as we do. All don't elicit the same hysterical response though. And that says something about us. Something ugly.

musashi
23-05-2013, 01:43 PM
A truly shocking crime.
The two perpetrator's reasons for this gruesome act interest me greatly.

A bystander's account of a conversation she had with the perpetrator moments after the incident:

Ms Loyau-Kennett told ITV Daybreak she initially thought the victim had been injured in a car crash after spotting a badly-damaged vehicle on a pavement at the scene.

She said: "I went to the guy and when I approached the body there was a lady cradling him. And then (one of the killers), the most excited one of the two, said 'Don't go too close to the body'.

"He said 'Don't touch, I killed him'. I said 'Why?' He said 'He's a British soldier. He killed people. He killed Muslim people in Muslim countries'.

"I tried to make him talk about how he felt. He said all the bombs dropping and blindly killing women, children.

"Because I was down I could see a butcher's knife and an axe - that's what he had - and blood. I thought, what the heck? I thought obviously he was a bit excited and the thing was just to talk to him."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0523/452038-london-woolwich/


"This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/british-soldier-hacked-to-death-in-suspected-london-terror-attack-1.525485

C. Flower
23-05-2013, 02:12 PM
may I ask why the double standard here Cass?

The video from woolwich did not show the victim close up, was not humiliating to the victim and the video was not made and released with the intention of spreading fear.

Please do not disrupt threads constantly with arguments about moderation. If you want to start a general thread about what should and shouldn't be shown (in fact there is at least one already in the Feedback forum) please do. It would be useful. Mods decisions are final, so it will not be a discussion/argument over a specific posting. If you haven't yet read the forum rules, please would you?

morticia
23-05-2013, 02:22 PM
http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/youngpeople/participation/neet/a0064101/16--to-18-year-olds-not-in-education,-employment-or-training

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19342998

Not conjecture. The figures vary, one recent EU study put the number of UK Neets at 20%

And why is it racist to point out that allowing an elitist education system to "drop" 20% of kids for wealth reasons? Obviously, they need to tackle the problem, fewer Neets = less disaffected youth and fewer antisocial incidents.

And sorry for point this out, but it is a FACT that UK citizens of non-British origin are more likely to be disadvantaged and therefore to be involved in crime? There's a fix for this, it's called tackling poverty.

http://www.thamesvalleychamber.co.uk/uploads/Lost_Talent_Oct08.pdf

Check out the third or fourth page down. By the British Chamber of Commerce.

States that being disadvantaged or of Asian background makes one more likely to be NEET, but that the highest percentage of NEETS are from white UK working class backgrounds.

So you have inner city ghettoes with a lot of unemployed youth of different racial backgrounds, the extremes of which get involved with either Islamist groups or the EDF, BNP etc.

Tinderbox......

And don't get me wrong, I blame the penny pinching Governments, not the poor themselves.

And if you think these conditions are unique to London/the UK, check out the latest on the Stockholm riots.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22636288

I'm not Enoch Powell, my solution to problems caused by poverty is to spend more money on alleviating it.

But governments can't raise taxes any more. The wealthy simply move their money out of the way.

C. Flower
23-05-2013, 02:39 PM
States that being disadvantaged or of Asian background makes one more likely to be NEET, but that the highest percentage of NEETS are from white UK working class backgrounds.

I don't understand any of that. What does "NEET" mean ?

60% of young Greeks are unemployed and that kind of level of youth unemployment is spreading throughout Europe.

The situation is very definitely not of their making.

Is there a good acronym for the class of people who have benefited from both the boom and the crash.

morticia
23-05-2013, 02:47 PM
As defined in my original post, NEET stands for Not in Education, Employment or Training.

Yes, the slump has made this problem, much, much worse, but was very significant in the UK even during the boom years. It is of the Government's making; as I have stated before, segregation of more able and better off students in the UK education system, plus insufficient investment in welfare after the crash of working class employment under Thatcher and subsequent governments is the root cause. See my post on the UK child poverty thread.

I believe this site contains many terms for the banksters and other vultures that have profited from the boom and slump in less than entirely moral ways. Acronyms....maybe not, but terms of abuse, yes.

and for anyone really interested, here's the Wikipedia NEET page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET

It's a commonly used term in the UK media, I'm very surprised people aren't familiar with it here.

As for Greece, I don't think anyone's actually accusing their Government of competence either.

Obviously vast youth unemployment is usually a result of government and societal mismanagement, but it is unfortunately also a fact that unemployed youth sociologically is far more likely to cause trouble of an antisocial or criminal nature than unemployment of...say... fifty somethings. Which is why governments should be more pro-active in tackling the problem, but the whole austerity ethos is not helping

Which is why I'm predicting riots. Greece has already had them but I'm surprised at Stockholm. Sweden is normally a model of good socialist practice....

morticia
23-05-2013, 02:58 PM
Since I've comprehensively backed up my post with the relevant statistics and links, I'm not going to bother arguing further.

Try a Google search. You'll find a wealth of UK media sources saying ...well...pretty much what I just said, only in terms less judgemental of the government and more so of the poor.

C. Flower
23-05-2013, 05:43 PM
mod - this discussion belongs in feedback

cf

morticia
23-05-2013, 09:15 PM
Feedback from the UK... Absolute horror. General reaction seems to be along the lines of "bring back hanging". TBH, while many nastier covert crimes have been committed since the 19th century, this is about the worst overt incident since the abolition of public executions....when did that happen? Must have been mid 19th century or earlier? Or am I wrong here?

The shock will last a few days, then we will see. The authorities do however appear to be dealing with this sensibly. David Cameron on air saying that this attempt to "divide us" would not be allowed to work. I hope this continues.

RaggedTrousers
24-05-2013, 06:06 AM
Morticia
NEET becoming a bit of a buzz word here in youth work and activation sectors.

I cannot understand why they waited around after their barbarism,
I wonder did they expect to be shot dead by the police, surely imprisonment wasn't in their plan.

However, it is hard to even try to comprehend their motives. An attempt to polarise both Muslims and non Muslims into extremist positions?

C. Flower
24-05-2013, 07:40 AM
Morticia
NEET becoming a bit of a buzz word here in youth work and activation sectors.

I cannot understand why they waited around after their barbarism,
I wonder did they expect to be shot dead by the police, surely imprisonment wasn't in their plan.

However, it is hard to even try to comprehend their motives. An attempt to polarise both Muslims and non Muslims into extremist positions?

NEET is a political, and economic, phenomenon, in my opinion. A choice was made to deindustrialise and focus on finance and service industry. It was not a workable or sustainable economic model.

The action seems to some extent have rallied people around the Government and Blighty. The local community in Woolwich have drawn together. Those on the right will use it in the opposite way.

One thing it will not lead to is a general uprising of the British people and achievement of some kind of Sharia regime in Westminster, which seems to be what they wanted, going by what they said.

The language was mingled Christian and Muslim - "An eye for an eye" is "Old Testament" Christian. One man arrested said to have been a convert to Islam from the Nigerian Christian Church.

fluffybiscuits
24-05-2013, 03:04 PM
Probably the same, or a similar, clip to the one shown on RTE 9 news last night.

I am utterly disgusted. They should bring back hanging for this, there's no chance of a miscarriage of justice here. This is beyond disgusting for Kabul, never mind London.

What is the point in butchering a 20something squaddie who is not responsible for any of the policy decisions made by British politicians? I would grant that not all decisions made at the top by previous UK governments were either well thought out or effective ...the Iraq war, for starters....but this is NOT the way to register a protest.

And frankly, the effect, when viewed from the perspective of Islamic activism, will be profoundly counterproductive... making a martyr out of a soldier is probably more likely to harden the resolve of many already jingoistic Brits than to actually put them off any further Middle Eastern misadventures.

I am equally disgusted at the EDF. The murderers neither looked nor sounded like ethnic Muslims, at a guess, the attacker with the bloody knife and machete in each hand sounded like an Afro-Caribbean product of London. Yeah, maybe they were converted and radicalised by the Internet, probably because they were bored NEETS (not in education, employment or training) with no prospects.

So why go blow up mosques? Unless you want to start nationwide race riots; always an attractive thought to the local Neo Nazi thugs, I guess.

I'm afraid that one of the reasons I got myself and family out of the UK was the vast amount of underemployed, totally uneducated youth who had little enough to do other than cause trouble. Add the racial and immigration issues, and the uncontrollable overcrowding and you have a total tinderbox.

The EDF are using the event as a massve tinderbox to inflate the hatred that is simmering in a lot of the disenfranchised poor educated fascist scum that make up a lot of the membership of the EDL. Tommy Robinson, one of their key members went down to inflame tensions apprently and was seen floating about with some other EDL members. EDF have been rioting with police.

To us there is no point in butchering a twenty year old squaddie, he is as innocent as an young life that has been taken in this imperialist war. However on the other hand these young men must know what they are signing themselves up for when they join the army, they are fair game in a war which they started. Britian attacks one nation and then is surprised when someone kicks back. Its all casualties of war in a terrible needless loss of life.

Richardbouvet
24-05-2013, 03:30 PM
Fluffy it is not fair to that squaddie or his family to imply that he must have known he was signing up for something like what happened, or that he was fair game for the thugs who butchered him. I think that is an appallingly insensitive thing to say.

fluffybiscuits
24-05-2013, 03:40 PM
Fluffy it is not fair to that squaddie or his family to imply that he must have known he was signing up for something like what happened, or that he was fair game for the thugs who butchered him. I think that is an appallingly insensitive thing to say.

So I go join the army...I expect to be making daisy chains and dancing through the meadows and fight people with glitter....?

C. Flower
24-05-2013, 09:48 PM
Stoned, mentally unhinged, ptsd, ex military? I'm trying to think of something comparable. Maybe the D. C. Sniper?
The accent and expressions were London, not Islamabad.

An interview was just broadcast on Newsnight by a friend. He said that the man who carried out the attack was an independent Islamicist, who had converted quite recently, and who wanted to live in a Sharia country, rather than try to introduce Sharia elsewhere. He had gone to Kenya, and had been arrested and sexually assaulted there by the military. He also said he had been interviewed by MI5, who had pressurised him to work for them.

C. Flower
24-05-2013, 09:54 PM
Newsnight following on with a well paid NGO lady tutoring us on how to deal with the 1% of disaffected online.

Assam
24-05-2013, 10:33 PM
argh, said I'd stay away but I can't....

Cass, I missed tonight's Newsnight but I'll watch it in a bit and catch up with what you're talking about in your last cupla posts. However, can I just briefly say, well done Morticia for talking a lot of sense (even if I'm still defo not at the hang-em stage). But your posts re Neets and general degradation of society over the last number of years are spot on. The phrase / description Neets has been used for surely the best part of 10 years now?

How do I even begin to describe what this sadistic govt is doing to general run-of-the-mill society these days? ....especially in relation to disabled people ... I'll post more anon.

Let me say however that - very famously - it was the EDL (English Defence League) - absolutely not the EDF (Electricite de France) - who got their goons marching thru Woolwich the other night - EDF is one of the major power suppliers in the UK and indeed the EU and is still majority-owned by the French State I think .......EDL - well, a nasty, even pathetic, result of 30yrs of neo-liberalism in my view ....





http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/23/hugh-muir-diary-buckles-bolted?INTCMP=SRCH

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-twitter-users-confuse-1906011

Simonsays
24-05-2013, 11:13 PM
So I go join the army...I expect to be making daisy chains and dancing through the meadows and fight people with glitter....?

That is a really stupid and childish comment, Fluffy. I expected better from you.

There are no excuses that can ever be made, under any circumstances, for anyone, whatever their career, to be attacked by a psychotic nut with a machete. None. Don't try to in any way justify what was an appalling and evil crime. It would be an appalling crime no matter who did it, what their beliefs were, or what uniform if any they had on. It is impossible to justify and the victim bares no responsibility for being victim of such an appalling crime, whatever their job, or uniform.

I have always been opposed to the death penalty. For the first time ever I began, for a moment at least, to wonder if this was indeed a case that contradicted by fundamental opposition to it. Ultimately it hasn't, but it has certainly made me think about just how society should deal with someone who could perpetrate such an appalling and unjustifiable act.

Simonsays
24-05-2013, 11:36 PM
The video from woolwich did not show the victim close up, was not humiliating to the victim and the video was not made and released with the intention of spreading fear.

Please do not disrupt threads constantly with arguments about moderation. If you want to start a general thread about what should and shouldn't be shown (in fact there is at least one already in the Feedback forum) please do. It would be useful. Mods decisions are final, so it will not be a discussion/argument over a specific posting. If you haven't yet read the forum rules, please would you?

If you look closely at the video you will notice - and I only did looking back at it - that the severed head of the victim has been blurred so the separated head cannot be recognised. One of the witnesses suggested the head was entirely severed. When the woman who bravely went over to the body, insisting to the murderers that she did not want the victim to die alone, and stayed with him, she said the head had been separate from the body, and was lying beside it.

It was a brave honourable action by a decent human being. It also highlighted the reality that was so different to the EDL warped mind-set: how a dying white soldier was comforted in his moments of death by a Black woman of immigrant origins, who could not in conscience leave someone to die alone of the street and got off a bus to go and help him, at no small risk to herself with two murderers on the prowl, one with a gun. She showed more decency and honour than either the thugs who carried out the crime or the EDL with their faux concern and determination to use an evil act to generate up hatred and push an agenda. The thugs in the EDL regard the English as embodying decency and truth. If that is their definition of Englishness, then in the horrific yesterday the only true 'English person', using their definition, was that Black immigrant woman who they want to drive from the country.

Assam
24-05-2013, 11:41 PM
The sheer theatricality of this CRIME, cos that's what it was, I want to re-iterate that word, crime, though I initially for only a nanosecond almost wrote "event". 2 young men, one of whom was apparently approached just 6 mths ago by M15, whose language during his "performance" on that street was a mixture of Christian and newly-imbibed Muslim language, as in 9/11 totally postmodern and the more grotesque for that, he mentioned "our troops", I think, remove OUR troops from OUR lands - total contradiction, a mish mash, a confused alienated identity, not really belonging anywhere. How the hell do we deal effectively with this barbaric act? - the usual media words in this case not overegged - horrific, barbaric.

Assam
24-05-2013, 11:50 PM
The woman who tended Lee Rigby RIP on the ground was called Amanda Donnelly and her daughter Gemini was also there. The woman who got off the bus and spoke with Michael Adebowale and has been subsequently interviewed on tv and in the press was Ingrid Loyau-Kennatt. One can see other women in the surrounding group of locals, while the unarmed police waited some space away (in accordance with regulations and as per the truly frightening London Riots), awaiting armed reinforcements.

Buddha
25-05-2013, 09:30 AM
I do not believe that this is a terrorist attack. I wouldn't be supprised if it comes out that the victim had sex with the sister of one of the attackers.....or something like that

Firstly, I hope that the above poster learns to hold his whist before he writes such bóllíx in the future.

Secondly, if I might remind people that Islam accepts the Old Testement of the Bible as do Jews, so calling someone a "christian" because they have knowledge of the Old Testement is a bit daft, especially the "eye for an eye" bit which is used by every "hang em from the nearest lamp post" brigade in every society known to man.

And lastly, young men joining the armed forces usually do so in order to get a job. Not kill people. For every killer there are about, I should imagine, a dozen trades people keeping the soldier in the field. So join the Army and get a Trade is the usual reason. Most armies are comprised of those from the poorest regions of their country.

C. Flower
25-05-2013, 11:00 AM
The woman who tended Lee Rigby RIP on the ground was called Amanda Donnelly and her daughter Gemini was also there. The woman who got off the bus and spoke with Michael Adebowale and has been subsequently interviewed on tv and in the press was Ingrid Loyau-Kennatt. One can see other women in the surrounding group of locals, while the unarmed police waited some space away (in accordance with regulations and as per the truly frightening London Riots), awaiting armed reinforcements.

Where would London be with out its black population? The underground would grind to a halt, for a start.
I lived in London a good while. Came off a motor bike there once, and the first thing I saw coming around was the reassuring face of a West Indian woman, who had got an ambulance and was telling me off for having swerved to avoid a cat. There is quite a bit of separateness, but very little hostility, between different groups in London, and mainly it is all cool.



:)

Richardbouvet
25-05-2013, 11:48 AM
"And lastly, young men joining the armed forces usually do so in order to get a job. Not kill people. For every killer there are about, I should imagine, a dozen trades people keeping the soldier in the field. So join the Army and get a Trade is the usual reason. Most armies are comprised of those from the poorest regions of their country."

+ 1.

There is an unfortunate tendency for some people on the left to cast individual soldiers and policemen as deliberate enemies of the working class etc. which they usually are not.

In the past returning war veterans, including from WW1 and the Vietnam war, were often attacked or insulted by anti-war people. It was a wrong-headed thing to do and it made the left a huge number of unnecessary enemies.

Saoirse go Deo
25-05-2013, 12:16 PM
I loath the cowardly double think which some people employ in order to "support the troops" yet not their wars. Are soldiers unthinking morons that have no idea what they are signing up for, especially when wars are already underway? Being a soldier, especially in the British or American armies, is not "just a job". In what other job do you kill people or aid others in doing so?

Of course the individuals who do great wrong should be held to account and blamed - as their government should be for telling them to do it. Human beings are not robots, there are choices to be made.

riposte
25-05-2013, 01:18 PM
Quite correct Saoirse ......... Soldiers ...... are Hired Killers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A50lVLtSQik

C. Flower
25-05-2013, 02:09 PM
"And lastly, young men joining the armed forces usually do so in order to get a job. Not kill people. For every killer there are about, I should imagine, a dozen trades people keeping the soldier in the field. So join the Army and get a Trade is the usual reason. Most armies are comprised of those from the poorest regions of their country."

+ 1.

There is an unfortunate tendency for some people on the left to cast individual soldiers and policemen as deliberate enemies of the working class etc. which they usually are not.

In the past returning war veterans, including from WW1 and the Vietnam war, were often attacked or insulted by anti-war people. It was a wrong-headed thing to do and it made the left a huge number of unnecessary enemies.

Joining a standing army as a profession is a decision to be a mercenary and to be part of a killing machine.
But there is a world of difference between signing up to join an army whose role is imperialist (supporting theft from other, weaker countries) and joining an army of a smaller/weaker country that is under threat.
It is not an absolute or abstract question.

It is against human nature to kill. Armies have a problem getting their soldiers to do it - I forget the percentage, but I think it is less than 30% who are able to point the gun and pull the trigger and kill. Soldiers have to be dehumanised by their training somewhat even to achieve that rate.

C. Flower
25-05-2013, 07:44 PM
The young man who said on television yesterday that one of the attackers said he had been approached a few months ago by M15 and asked to work for them has now been arrested under terror legislation. That will teach people to open their big mouths.

Sky is also reporting that one of the attackers had been arrested by the police and let go again a few weeks ago, without charges. Unclear as to why he was arrested but "recruitment to Islam" of teenage boys was mentioned.

As with Boston, the people involved were under police surveillance. In the case of Boston, there have been questions asked as to whether the attackers had been recruited by the CIA. In this case, M15 had certainly tried. In both cases, the behaviour of the alleged attackers was curious in that they made no attempt to make a get away. In London, they stayed on the scene, in Boston they carried on with their normal social lives.

Richardbouvet
25-05-2013, 10:11 PM
"Joining a standing army as a profession is a decision to be a mercenary and to be part of a killing machine."

Working class lads in every country join their local army. They do not sit down and examine the historical role of their local army before deciding to join up. Only rarely does anyone from the ennlightened, politically aware classes bother to show up at the gate of the recruitment office warning them that they are being mercenaries. They have only ever heard the propaganda on TV and in school.

That is why I am very impatient with harsh and sanctimonious attitudes shown towards such young fellows by progressives who should know better.

Mr Aphorisms
25-05-2013, 10:28 PM
"Joining a standing army as a profession is a decision to be a mercenary and to be part of a killing machine."

Working class lads in every country join their local army. They do not sit down and examine the historical role of their local army before deciding to join up. Only rarely does anyone from the ennlightened, politically aware classes bother to show up at the gate of the recruitment office warning them that they are being mercenaries. They have only ever heard the propaganda on TV and in school.

That is why I am very impatient with harsh and sanctimonious attitudes shown towards such young fellows by progressives who should know better.

The British people have for centuries supported their governments through genocidal policies across the world to drug dealing in China. If we take your logic, they have no responsibility whatsoever for their government because they have been beguiled by the chicanery of their governments propaganda. James Connolly, no hater of the working man, eventually realised that this type of folly was scandalous and was reactionary. Responsibility must be not only on the politicians, but the people who consistently elect them. By the way, that goes for the Irish as well. It's our fault we keep electing gombeen politicians and the spectre of Fianna Fáil is back:


It must be admitted that the English people are at present doing their utmost to justify the low estimate in which their rulers hold them; a people who for centuries have never heard a shot fired in anger upon their shores, yet who encourage their government in its campaign of robbery and murder against an unoffending nation; a people, who, secure in their own homes, permit their rulers to carry devastation and death into the homes of another people, assuredly deserve little respect no matter how loudly they may boast of their liberty-loving spirit.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1899/08/sawar1.htm

Richardbouvet
25-05-2013, 10:39 PM
Aphorisms, voters here and in Britain are basically the same. They vote on the issues that are put before them, not on the issues which aren't. I am certain that Irish voters would have behaved in exactly the same way if we had an empire.

In fact, I cannot think of a single exception to what I am implying, which itself implies that all electorates everywhere are morally tainted, or would be given the same circumstances.

Mr Aphorisms
25-05-2013, 10:44 PM
Aphorisms, voters here and in Britain are basically the same. They vote on the issues that are put before them, not on the issues which aren't. I am certain that Irish voters would have behaved in exactly the same way if we had an empire.

In fact, I cannot think of a single exception to what I am implying, which itself implies that all electorates everywhere are morally tainted, or would be given the same circumstances.

I do not disagree with you on the Irish point. Look at the turnout for Obama. The simple fact of the matter remains is that Ireland is not responsible (well, Shannon you could say) for the killing of children in Iraq and Afghanistan. The British people do share some responsibility. What should young mothers in Iraq think who have lost their children? 'Poor English people, X Factor and Manchester United manager resigning, tough times'? Just because many act the same in other countries does not make it right. Ergo, when the people who strike back from other countries attack you, don't start promulgating to the world your indignation at these attacks, when your government does and supports the same sort of stuff on a daily, if not hourly basis.

C. Flower
26-05-2013, 07:26 AM
The British people have for centuries supported their governments through genocidal policies across the world to drug dealing in China. If we take your logic, they have no responsibility whatsoever for their government because they have been beguiled by the chicanery of their governments propaganda. James Connolly, no hater of the working man, eventually realised that this type of folly was scandalous and was reactionary. Responsibility must be not only on the politicians, but the people who consistently elect them. By the way, that goes for the Irish as well. It's our fault we keep electing gombeen politicians and the spectre of Fianna Fáil is back:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1899/08/sawar1.htm

I do agree about the hypocrisy, but not about equal responsibility. Wasn't it a million people in the UK marched against going to war against Iraq ? There is a gulf between governments and people on going to war. People aren't offered a choice and wars are rarely popular at home. It was the same with Ireland: much of the time a majority in Britain was in favour of full Irish independence. There has no more been a vote on the issue there than here. The fact that republicans/nationalists here ignored that body of support and attacked soft targets in England was imo a tactical and moral mistake.

People who wanted to protest against what the UK army was doing abroad would have done better to have picketed the barracks with posters/photographs of people killed by the UK forces. Most people in the UK have no idea what is going on, given that they have to rely on the BBC and Sky for information. Resorting to butchery on a par with those forces was in every way counter productive.

morticia
26-05-2013, 09:13 PM
First of all, Assam and others are absolutely correct in pointing out that cannon fodder...whoops...Army recruits are usually from disadvantaged areas. When I lived in South Wales, the recruiters spent far more time in the Valleys, where many leave school at 16, rather than in the posher Vale of Glamorgan. For the poor, the Army offers a pay rate and free training, often accompanied by a funded degree for the cleverer ones. Given the recession, I'd say the numbers of the middle classes taking this route through the education system will rise, since fees are going through the roof.

As for the Iraq war, at the time of entry, a narrow majority of the UK public was in favour, despite the million marching through London that obviously weren't. As far as decline in Government funding for services, research, etc is concerned, their austerity started with the Iraq war in 2003. Stupidest decision ever, based on a warm relationship between Bliar and Bush, and a dodgy dossier.

And as for not realising their foreign policy causes trouble, it's more complicated than that. The education system there seems to teach the more jingoistic and self aggrandising version of colonial history, and there is a bit of a national superiority complex. So they seem to be under the somewhat delusional view that people can be brought back to the straight and narrow by a good old fashioned invasion...oops...military intervention. There is also the attitude that national strategic aims, such as securing an oil supply into the future or maintaining regional influence, is imperative, the moral justification being the maintenance of British position and influence. Not very moral IMHO.

Hard to understand from an Irish position, where the national inferiority complex appears to be in the ascendant again, and an entirely different version of British and Irish history is taught.

Secret Squirrel
26-05-2013, 09:39 PM
A few news articles mention that the bloke who was beheaded was employed as a recruiting officer for the british army.

Mr Aphorisms
27-05-2013, 02:50 PM
I do agree about the hypocrisy, but not about equal responsibility. Wasn't it a million people in the UK marched against going to war against Iraq ? There is a gulf between governments and people on going to war. People aren't offered a choice and wars are rarely popular at home. It was the same with Ireland: much of the time a majority in Britain was in favour of full Irish independence. There has no more been a vote on the issue there than here. The fact that republicans/nationalists here ignored that body of support and attacked soft targets in England was imo a tactical and moral mistake.

People who wanted to protest against what the UK army was doing abroad would have done better to have picketed the barracks with posters/photographs of people killed by the UK forces. Most people in the UK have no idea what is going on, given that they have to rely on the BBC and Sky for information. Resorting to butchery on a par with those forces was in every way counter productive.


Wasn't it a million people in the UK marched against going to war against Iraq ?

How long was that ago? Also, they've been engaged in slaughter for centuries, not just recently. They live in a country which is free; you're free to express your opinions and free to vote in elections. Yet, it's always the same people they elect. They must share the responsibility. For example, when Fianna Fail get into power in the next general election, will it be the medias fault or the populace of Ireland's fault for electing them?


People aren't offered a choice and wars are rarely popular at home. It was the same with Ireland: much of the time a majority in Britain was in favour of full Irish independence. There has no more been a vote on the issue there than here. The fact that republicans/nationalists here ignored that body of support and attacked soft targets in England was imo a tactical and moral mistake.

What happened in the 20th Century in Ireland was benign compared to what the Brits did around the world. It is a comparison I cannot consider, a chara. I understand your point though. I still don't see it expiating for anything. I am interested in election day, not opinion polls.


People who wanted to protest against what the UK army was doing abroad would have done better to have picketed the barracks with posters/photographs of people killed by the UK forces.

I think it's well known now that protesting is very ineffective in getting real change. A real change could come from electing a government which isn't insoucian regarding human beings in foreign lands.


Most people in the UK have no idea what is going on, given that they have to rely on the BBC and Sky for information.

A lot of people say this and go even further and cast the general public as 'stupid', 'sheep' and more. I don't believe that. It's a Bolshevik view point. I believe most people are smart and caring, but their ignorance and lack of interest in what their government does causes death and destruction in lands far aware. I don't think we can simply dismiss the American and British public's apathy as down to them watching misinformation and more.


Resorting to butchery on a par with those forces was in every way counter productive.

Agreed.

C. Flower
27-05-2013, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE=Mr Aphorisms;338527]How long was that ago? Also, they've been engaged in slaughter for centuries, not just recently. They live in a country which is free; you're free to express your opinions and free to vote in elections. Yet, it's always the same people they elect. They must share the responsibility. For example, when Fianna Fail get into power in the next general election, will it be the medias fault or the populace of Ireland's fault for electing them?

There are choices, but the power relations are not equal. Some classes of people have access to cash for election campaigns, others, much less so. Also, the choice to move from one system (imperialism/late capitalism)to another, is not an easy or comfortable one. People will hold on to the devil they know until there is really no alternative. There is also an ideological domination, for example, we are taught that the way to change things are through elections, even though there is ample evidence that if people look like achieveing serious change through elections, they are suspended or abolished.


What happened in the 20th Century in Ireland was benign compared to what the Brits did around the world. It is a comparison I cannot consider, a chara. I understand your point though. I still don't see it expiating for anything. I am interested in election day, not opinion polls. I don't understand your point here.


I think it's well known now that protesting is very ineffective in getting real change. A real change could come from electing a government which isn't insoucian regarding human beings in foreign lands.

See above.


A lot of people say this and go even further and cast the general public as 'stupid', 'sheep' and more. I don't believe that. It's a Bolshevik view point. I believe most people are smart and caring, but their ignorance and lack of interest in what their government does causes death and destruction in lands far aware. I don't think we can simply dismiss the American and British public's apathy as down to them watching misinformation and more.

I don't think they are stupid, or apathetic, but I do think they perceive that change is not easy, and are unsure of how to achieve it, given that neither protests not elections have succeeded in putting a stop to imperialism. And also, they have been given the idea that the "other" who is exploited is evil, and the enemy. Again, enormous media and academic resources are poured into this.

fluffybiscuits
28-05-2013, 01:33 PM
First of all, Assam and others are absolutely correct in pointing out that cannon fodder...whoops...Army recruits are usually from disadvantaged areas. When I lived in South Wales, the recruiters spent far more time in the Valleys, where many leave school at 16, rather than in the posher Vale of Glamorgan. For the poor, the Army offers a pay rate and free training, often accompanied by a funded degree for the cleverer ones. Given the recession, I'd say the numbers of the middle classes taking this route through the education system will rise, since fees are going through the roof.

As for the Iraq war, at the time of entry, a narrow majority of the UK public was in favour, despite the million marching through London that obviously weren't. As far as decline in Government funding for services, research, etc is concerned, their austerity started with the Iraq war in 2003. Stupidest decision ever, based on a warm relationship between Bliar and Bush, and a dodgy dossier.

And as for not realising their foreign policy causes trouble, it's more complicated than that. The education system there seems to teach the more jingoistic and self aggrandising version of colonial history, and there is a bit of a national superiority complex. So they seem to be under the somewhat delusional view that people can be brought back to the straight and narrow by a good old fashioned invasion...oops...military intervention. There is also the attitude that national strategic aims, such as securing an oil supply into the future or maintaining regional influence, is imperative, the moral justification being the maintenance of British position and influence. Not very moral IMHO.

Hard to understand from an Irish position, where the national inferiority complex appears to be in the ascendant again, and an entirely different version of British and Irish history is taught.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?11939-US-Military-Does-it-attract-the-wrong-sort-of-people/page2

That is a post I did , completely get your point about the lads being fodder for the mililtarty. Those that would not have been otherwise capable of competing in an elitist system are then hoovered up by some of the army recruiters and promised the earth moon and stars, all they have to do is to put themselves in potentially harms way. Looking at the EDL, its comparable to those whom are in the army very low self esteem and a sense of misguided patriotism. It could be possible to say those who failed to get into the army then got involved in the EDL? Blame the education system but also blame the cognitive dissosance of attitudes that spread among those with a poor education.

Mr Aphorisms
28-05-2013, 09:58 PM
[QUOTE]

There are choices, but the power relations are not equal. Some classes of people have access to cash for election campaigns, others, much less so. Also, the choice to move from one system (imperialism/late capitalism)to another, is not an easy or comfortable one. People will hold on to the devil they know until there is really no alternative. There is also an ideological domination, for example, we are taught that the way to change things are through elections, even though there is ample evidence that if people look like achieveing serious change through elections, they are suspended or abolished.

I don't understand your point here.



See above.



I don't think they are stupid, or apathetic, but I do think they perceive that change is not easy, and are unsure of how to achieve it, given that neither protests not elections have succeeded in putting a stop to imperialism. And also, they have been given the idea that the "other" who is exploited is evil, and the enemy. Again, enormous media and academic resources are poured into this.


There are choices, but the power relations are not equal. Some classes of people have access to cash for election campaigns, others, much less so. Also, the choice to move from one system (imperialism/late capitalism)to another, is not an easy or comfortable one. People will hold on to the devil they know until there is really no alternative. There is also an ideological domination, for example, we are taught that the way to change things are through elections, even though there is ample evidence that if people look like achieveing serious change through elections, they are suspended or abolished.

Fair enough.


What happened in the 20th Century in Ireland was benign compared to what the Brits did around the world. It is a comparison I cannot consider, a chara. I understand your point though. I still don't see it expiating for anything. I am interested in election day, not opinion polls.

Sorry, it is a bit equivocal. The point I was making is that while the British may have had or do have sympathy with Irish reunification, is not really a point. Their governments were supporting genocide in East Timor, for example. What happened in East Timor made the Troubles look like a school yard fight on Youtube. They may have not had a choice to decide if they wanted to supply fighter hawks to destroy villages and support a Genocidal dictator, but the fact remains that they elected governments, both Labour and Tory, who supported what happened in East Timor all the way.

Can I ask again and a simple response: When Fianna Fail return to power, will it be the populace of this country's fault, or lobbyists, corporations, etc who support Fianna Fail in advertising and more? C'mon man, you know the obvious answer is the people who elect them. The thing is though, the Fianna Fail party are out for getting 'jobs for the boys' or engaging in extreme gombeenism; not selling jets to dictatorships that slaughter people.

morticia
29-05-2013, 09:32 PM
I'd take the gombeens over the arms sales any day. You have forgotten to point out that BAE Systems and other arms sellers that are practically branches of UK government have been investigated for offering massive bribes to the aforementioned dictatorships in order to buy aforementioned jets. An investigation into billion pound bribes to a Saudi prince got dropped by Tony Bliar after the Saudis threatened to stop co-operation on the global war on terror, as it was then known. "Not in the national interest". Doncha know?

Fianna Fáil look like the bl00dy Vienna Boys Choir in comparison to successive UK governments. And, suffering under a 2007 mortgage and declining wages, FF are not currently my fave people....

C. Flower
29-05-2013, 09:44 PM
[QUOTE=Mr Aphorisms;338721][QUOTE=C. Flower;338536]

Fair enough.

Sorry, it is a bit equivocal. The point I was making is that while the British may have had or do have sympathy with Irish reunification, is not really a point. Their governments were supporting genocide in East Timor, for example. What happened in East Timor made the Troubles look like a school yard fight on Youtube. They may have not had a choice to decide if they wanted to supply fighter hawks to destroy villages and support a Genocidal dictator, but the fact remains that they elected governments, both Labour and Tory, who supported what happened in East Timor all the way.

Sad to say, I doubt that East Timor is in the British school curriculum or ever got more than a couple of late night minutes of news coverage in the U.K. Also, the British government without doubt will have lied about its role and the media lapped up and regurgitated the lies. No, I don't think people who by accident of birth and by design of the ruling elite got a very limited education are to blame for everything the British government did.


Can I ask again and a simple response: When Fianna Fail return to power, will it be the populace of this country's fault, or lobbyists, corporations, etc who support Fianna Fail in advertising and more? C'mon man, you know the obvious answer is the people who elect them. The thing is though, the Fianna Fail party are out for getting 'jobs for the boys' or engaging in extreme gombeenism; not selling jets to dictatorships that slaughter people.

Most people in the boom had no idea at all what was going on in Anglo Irish. It was the plaything of a tiny golden circle.

There is a difference between classes that exploit within a certain system, and those who are exploited within it, and the exploited classes are those who have most to gain by political change. People do need to take responsibility politically, to shape something different, but it is a very big task and can only be done when the conditions are there for it, and with a lot of personal sacrifice. Turning over a power balance is a big job.

C. Flower
30-05-2013, 06:13 PM
Not new, just a couple of links to reports on the alleged attempts of M15 to recruit one of the attackers and the arrest of the young man who made the allegations. Also mentioned his having been abused in gaol in Kenya.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/woolwich-attack-michael-adebolajo-michael-adebowale-to-be-quizzed-over-lee-rigby-murder/story-fni0xs61-1226650349675

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10080130/Friend-of-Woolwich-attack-suspect-arrested-moments-after-BBC-interview.html

fluffybiscuits
31-05-2013, 01:30 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/31/abu-nusaybah-woolwich-suspect-friend-charged

Abu Nusaybah has subsequently been charged with encouraging terrorism. The charges are outlined above but its a worrying development when you look at how that legislation that was passed is being abused. Technically if someone were to post a video in Britian urging people to fight against the British army in NI they could be also technically be accused of encouraging terrorism. Its a complete undermining of people attempting to free their lands of imperialism. Would the men of 1916 have been tried for terrorism under these laws? All in all it is very plausible they are attempting to silence him.

Dr. FIVE
07-06-2013, 12:48 AM
Gavan Titley


the language of conflict is not a matter of effete indulgence, but of working to define a political reality that can be acted upon.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/05/woolwich-david-cameron-drain-swamp

PaddyJoe
07-06-2013, 01:01 AM
Gavan Titley




http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/05/woolwich-david-cameron-drain-swamp
Quite a way with words has Mr Titley. Paragraphs too.

Ultimately, only certain extremists live in swamps. The violent extremist Anders Breivik was also given a habitat, but that of the lone wolf, magically extracted from the swamp of bloggers, politicians, activists and journalists that provided him with ideological sustenance and inspiration. Despite their violent presence on Britain's streets, the swamp of the EDL is not listed for drainage. Perhaps, in the current political climate, that ideological terrain is a little more challenging

Dr. FIVE
07-06-2013, 01:11 AM
nails it

Remember all the columnists cited in Brevik's manifesto. Clarkson, Mel Phillips etc all still there.

Imagine similar named or the suspension around all Muslim leaders.

C. Flower
26-02-2014, 04:49 PM
Long sentences given to the two men today and fascist style demonstrations outside the Old Bailey.

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking

Holly
26-02-2014, 06:11 PM
The sentences are proportionate.

Richardbouvet
26-02-2014, 06:11 PM
The sentences are proportionate.
+1