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C. Flower
03-05-2010, 08:38 PM
Documentary - missed the first half - on the "Secret WW2" - the Hitler Stalin Pact.

Interesting interview with a Russian who was involved in deporting Polish families - "we were brought up to think of them as enemies of the people - it was normal".

It shows that Stalin signed an authorisation of execution of over 20,000 of the "Polish elite".

A whole number of the Russians involved in these mass shootings killed themselves.

The context was the agreement of Stalin and Hitler to "dismantle Poland".

According to the programme, Stalin totally misjudged the situation, and refused to listen to Intelligence and to his Generals who warned him that Hitler was going to attack.

Sam Lord
03-05-2010, 09:53 PM
Documentary - missed the first half - on the "Secret WW2" - the Hitler Stalin Pact.

Interesting interview with a Russian who was involved in deporting Polish families - "we were brought up to think of them as enemies of the people - it was normal".

It shows that Stalin signed an authorisation of execution of over 20,000 of the "Polish elite".

A whole number of the Russians involved in these mass shootings killed themselves.

The context was the agreement of Stalin and Hitler to "dismantle Poland".

According to the programme, Stalin totally misjudged the situation, and refused to listen to Intelligence and to his Generals who warned him that Hitler was going to attack.

Please don't tell me that you learn your history from RTE ...

C. Flower
03-05-2010, 10:07 PM
Please don't tell me that you learn your history from RTE ...

There's nothing magic about written sources and nothing of itself wrong with tv and film documentaries. All history is selective and usually composed by the winners. I'm accustomed to dealing with that by not relying on any single source or any one type of media. Are you dismissing everything shown on RTE as factually incorrect, or have you watched the programme I'm talking about ?

What was said about Katyn coincided with what is currently said by the Russians. A woman who works with me is the child of parents who met as children in Siberia, following deportation.

I'd be happy and interested to look at any alternative sources you can suggest.

Edo
03-05-2010, 10:34 PM
for a really good look at Katyn and the whole Nazi Germany/USSR thing 1939-1941 - I would cannot recommend highly enough Niall Ferguson's "The War of the World - History's age of Hatred" -

The War of the World: History's Age of Hatred Allen Lane History: Amazon.co.uk: Niall Ferguson: Books

its a lengthy tome - 700 pages approx and covers the period 1914 - 1999 - the Katyn incident and Polands dismemberment is just a small part of this - but I cannot recommend this book highly enough as it really goes into the depths of why neighbours turned on each other , the depths of depravity and viciousness of ethnic warfare which reached its apogee in turning human beings into soap and socks in the extermination camps in Eastern Europe in the 1940's

Summerday Sands
03-05-2010, 11:07 PM
Documentary - missed the first half - on the "Secret WW2" - the Hitler Stalin Pact.

Interesting interview with a Russian who was involved in deporting Polish families - "we were brought up to think of them as enemies of the people - it was normal".

It shows that Stalin signed an authorisation of execution of over 20,000 of the "Polish elite".

A whole number of the Russians involved in these mass shootings killed themselves.

The context was the agreement of Stalin and Hitler to "dismantle Poland".

According to the programme, Stalin totally misjudged the situation, and refused to listen to Intelligence and to his Generals who warned him that Hitler was going to attack.

I believe this is the programme.
YouTube- (1/5) Stalin,The Nazis And The West - part 1

C. Flower
03-05-2010, 11:19 PM
That's the one, thanks. I can watch the first half, and if he's inclined, Sam Lord can tell us what's wrong with it.

Summerday Sands
03-05-2010, 11:30 PM
That's the one, thanks. I can watch the first half, and if he's inclined, Sam Lord can tell us what's wrong with it.

Its a good documentary, I enjoyed the actors portrayal of Stalin, Churchill & Roosevelt.

The problem I'd have with it, is that it fails to mention the many attempts by The Soviets to establish a pact with Britain & France against Hitler & Fascism.

C. Flower
03-05-2010, 11:41 PM
Its a good documentary, I enjoyed the actors portrayal of Stalin, Churchill & Roosevelt.

The problem I'd have with it, is that it fails to mention the many attempts by The Soviets to establish a pact with Britain & France against Hitler & Fascism.

Through the Popular Fronts ?

Summerday Sands
03-05-2010, 11:51 PM
Through the Popular Fronts ?

The Soviet Union offered to enter negotiations with the British & French to unite against Hitler through their Foreign Commmisar Litvinov, all of these propositions where either ignored or refused. The British grudgingly agreed to the last Soviet offer. However by then the Soviets were looking towards signing a pact with Germany. The pact with the Nazi's was mainly a defensive act.

C. Flower
03-05-2010, 11:58 PM
The Soviet Union offered to enter negotiations with the British & French to unite against Hitler through their Foreign Commmisar Litvinov, all of these propositions where either ignored or refused. The British grudgingly agreed to the last Soviet offer. However by then the Soviets were looking towards signing a pact with Germany. The pact with the Nazi's was mainly a defensive act.

They weren't in the greatest shape to be taking on German industry, I'd say. It was an incredible achievement that they managed to hang on and beat the Germans, at a terrible cost.

Summerday Sands
04-05-2010, 12:14 AM
They weren't in the greatest shape to be taking on German industry, I'd say. It was an incredible achievement that they managed to hang on and beat the Germans, at a terrible cost.

I agree, 27 million dead, no country had such a cost. The war waged by the Nazi's in The Soviet Union was incomprehensibly brutal. I only recently watched the amazing Soviet film "Come & See" its a film that really shows the barbarity of Fascism.
YouTube- Come and See (11/15) - NOT FOR KIDS!

Sam Lord
04-05-2010, 03:39 AM
Are you dismissing everything shown on RTE as factually incorrect, or have you watched the programme I'm talking about ?




I am not dismissing everything. There might be programs about pet care or gardening or home renovations and so forth that may be correct in what they say. I would not argue against them. When it comes to socialism and the working class movement and it's history, however, then yes .... it is guaranteed without a doubt to be incorrect. 100% incorrect. There is nothing they assert that could be in any way be relied upon. They are working totally and utterly to an ideological agenda.

They could have conquered cancer in the Soviet Union and the bourgeois media today would find some way to spin it as a bad thing.

you will find a proliferation of such programs as the crisis of capitalism deepens.

But it will not save them ...

Sam Lord
04-05-2010, 03:41 AM
The Soviet Union offered to enter negotiations with the British & French to unite against Hitler through their Foreign Commmisar Litvinov, all of these propositions where either ignored or refused. The British grudgingly agreed to the last Soviet offer. However by then the Soviets were looking towards signing a pact with Germany. The pact with the Nazi's was mainly a defensive act.

Thank you ...

Sam Lord
04-05-2010, 03:49 AM
bump

Summerday Sands
04-05-2010, 03:55 AM
Thank you ...

The deliberate refusal to acknowledge the Soviet offers is becoming more & more prevelant, putting more emphasis on the Molotov-Ribentrop pact in an attempt to traduce the Soviet Union further by blaming it for causing WW II along with the Nazi's.

Sam Lord
04-05-2010, 04:38 AM
Some revisionists today would go even further and assert that WW2 was all the fault of the Soviet Union and that Germany was in some way a defensive force against communist aggression.

Sam Lord
04-05-2010, 05:39 AM
Why are there never any television programs about the other pacts ... like the one which gave Czechoslovakia to the Nazis?


"In the Munich Agreement of 1938, the UK and France forced Czechoslovakia to cede the German-speaking borderlands (Sudetenland) to Nazi Germany despite existing treaties, in what is commonly known as part of the Western Betrayal. In 1939 the remainder ("rump") of Czechoslovakia was invaded by Nazi Germany and divided into the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the puppet Slovak State. Much of Slovakia and all of Subcarpathian Ruthenia was annexed by Hungary. Poland occupied Zaolzie, an area with a Polish minority (October 1938)."

The plans of the Brits and the French were proceeding well until the Soviet Union blindsided them with its own pact. It is called fighting fire with fire.

but of course Stalin was the only one with a Pact.

C. Flower
04-05-2010, 08:41 AM
Why are there never any television programs about the other pacts ... like the one which gave Czechoslovakia to the Nazis?


"In the Munich Agreement of 1938, the UK and France forced Czechoslovakia to cede the German-speaking borderlands (Sudetenland) to Nazi Germany despite existing treaties, in what is commonly known as part of the Western Betrayal. In 1939 the remainder ("rump") of Czechoslovakia was invaded by Nazi Germany and divided into the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the puppet Slovak State. Much of Slovakia and all of Subcarpathian Ruthenia was annexed by Hungary. Poland occupied Zaolzie, an area with a Polish minority (October 1938)."

The plans of the Brits and the French were proceeding well until the Soviet Union blindsided them with its own pact. It is called fighting fire with fire.

but of course Stalin was the only one with a Pact.

I thought it was very well known that Czechoslovakia was betrayed. It's part of the whole picture. Is there a book, a website or documentary that you would recommend ?

Summerday Sands
04-05-2010, 11:18 AM
Why are there never any television programs about the other pacts ... like the one which gave Czechoslovakia to the Nazis?


"In the Munich Agreement of 1938, the UK and France forced Czechoslovakia to cede the German-speaking borderlands (Sudetenland) to Nazi Germany despite existing treaties, in what is commonly known as part of the Western Betrayal. In 1939 the remainder ("rump") of Czechoslovakia was invaded by Nazi Germany and divided into the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the puppet Slovak State. Much of Slovakia and all of Subcarpathian Ruthenia was annexed by Hungary. Poland occupied Zaolzie, an area with a Polish minority (October 1938)."

The plans of the Brits and the French were proceeding well until the Soviet Union blindsided them with its own pact. It is called fighting fire with fire.

but of course Stalin was the only one with a Pact.

The British entered into talks with The Nazi's long befoe that one in 1938. In 1935 they invited Ribbentrop to London & signed the Anglo-German Naval Agreement.

This allowed Hitler to rebuild his navy, even though in doing so it would be breaking the Versaille Treaty. It also undermined Anglo/French relations. The French being allied to Britain were shocked that they would do a deal with Hitler without even consulting them first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-German_Naval_Agreement

You could make quite a good little series about all the deals, agreements & pacts with Hitler.

C. Flower
04-05-2010, 11:32 AM
The British entered into talks with The Nazi's long befoe that one in 1938. In 1935 they invited Ribbentrop to London & signed the Anglo-German Naval Agreement.

This allowed Hitler to rebuild his navy, even though in doing so it would be breaking the Versaille Treaty. It also undermined Anglo/French relations. The French being allied to Britain were shocked that they would do a deal with Hitler without even consulting them first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-German_Naval_Agreement

You could make quite a good little series about all the deals, agreements & pacts with Hitler.

I read somewhere that when the Russian Revolution took place towards the end of WW1, the Bolsheviks published all the secret treaties between the "Great Powers" for carving the territories up between them. Have you ever seen anything written about that ?

Sam Lord
04-05-2010, 12:02 PM
I thought it was very well known that Czechoslovakia was betrayed. It's part of the whole picture. Is there a book, a website or documentary that you would recommend ?

I hardly hear it mentioned these days actually ....

I don't have any particular recommendations ... it is many years since I have looked at this period.

I think that if wants to achieve a good understanding of it, however, one needs to adopt the approach of class analysis (as Marx did so brilliantly in the 18th Brumaire to deal with the dictatorship in France) and as a starting point to grasp the essence of fascism. i.e. it's anti-communism. I think that is the only theoretical framework, if you like, within which events can be really understood.

The Soviet Union knew what was coming down the pipeline but in my opinion played a blinder politically and diplomatically to buy them the time to prepare to meet it. They made every effort to unite the western powers with them against Nazi Germany but the western bourgeoisie were not biting ... they had a vision of Germany destroying the Soviet Union and putting communism to rest and were prepared to appease it to this end. The Soviet Union then wrong footed them and got itself the space it needed. This was crucial in the defeat of fascism in the final analysis.

That is not to say that everything done was all sweetness and light. A buffer was created in Poland that the Poles would not, understandably, have been happy with. I think Stalin is on record as pointing out that this was a matter if regret. But it was done in accordance with a strategy to defend the revolution, in the context of a bigger picture. And then one could ask were the hands of the Poles (or their ruling circles to be more precise) always clean ? There was history there. You will know of the Polish-Soviet war between 1919 and 1921 and all the territory the nascent Soviet Union was forced to concede to the Poles in the Treaty of Riga.

Summerday Sands
04-05-2010, 12:35 PM
I hardly hear it mentioned these days actually ....

I don't have any particular recommendations ... it is many years since I have looked at this period.

I think that if wants to achieve a good understanding of it, however, one needs to adopt the approach of class analysis (as Marx did so brilliantly in the 18th Brumaire to deal with the dictatorship in France) and as a starting point to grasp the essence of fascism. i.e. it's anti-communism. I think that is the only theoretical framework, if you like, within which events can be really understood.

The Soviet Union knew what was coming down the pipeline but in my opinion played a blinder politically and diplomatically to buy them the time to prepare to meet it. They made every effort to unite the western powers with them against Nazi Germany but the western bourgeoisie were not biting ... they had a vision of Germany destroying the Soviet Union and putting communism to rest and were prepared to appease it to this end. The Soviet Union then wrong footed them and got itself the space it needed. This was crucial in the defeat of fascism in the final analysis.

That is not to say that everything done was all sweetness and light. A buffer was created in Poland that the Poles would not, understandably, have been happy with. I think Stalin is on record as pointing out that this was a matter if regret. But it was done in accordance with a strategy to defend the revolution, in the context of a bigger picture. And then one could ask were the hands of the Poles (or their ruling circles to be more precise) always clean ? There was history there. You will know of the Polish-Soviet war between 1919 and 1921 and all the territory the nascent Soviet Union was forced to concede to the Poles in the Treaty of Riga.

Very good post.


And then one could ask were the hands of the Poles (or their ruling circles to be more precise) always clean ? There was history there. You will know of the Polish-Soviet war between 1919 and 1921 and all the territory the nascent Soviet Union was forced to concede to the Poles in the Treaty of Riga.

The Polish leaders let their country down very badly. The regime in Poland was in fact a fairly nasty colonels' dictatorship, especially during the Sanacja period, with an anti-Semitic streak that gets overlooked only because Nazi Germany's was so much wider & barbaric.

The Polish government was the first country to enter diplomatic negotiations with Nazi Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-German_Non-Aggression_Pact

Poland also had a hand in carving up Czechoslovaka, grabbing the Teschen region & it's coal in 1938.

Not that any of this warrants the brutality that Nazi's inflicted on the country. The Polish government soon went into hiding after that, leaving its people to face the barbarity of Nazi occupation.

Summerday Sands
04-05-2010, 12:40 PM
I read somewhere that when the Russian Revolution took place towards the end of WW1, the Bolsheviks published all the secret treaties between the "Great Powers" for carving the territories up between them. Have you ever seen anything written about that ?

Sorry C Flower, can't help you there. WW I was a great carve up all right. The Imperial Powers of that period always remind me of "The Five Families" in The Godfather film. All of whom are nasty thiefs & criminals who end up slaughtering eachother in the end:)

Summerday Sands
04-05-2010, 08:05 PM
I did a bit more reading about the Soviet Union's offers to Britain & France with regards standing against Hitler & Fascism.

1st Soviet Offer
March 17th, 1938, after the Anschluss, the Soviets proposed a conference of powers to stop further Nazi aggression. Chamberlain took a chilly view of this & publicly rejected it in the House of Commons.

2nd Soviet Offer
March 18th, 1939, The Soviets proposed to the British & French a conference to stop Hitler including Poland, Romania & Turkey. Chamberlain, recently humiliated by Hitler over Czechoslovakia, again turned this down. He felt that the idea of entering talks with the Soviet Union was “premature”

3rd Soviet Offer
April 16th, 1939 the Soviets proposed a robust political & military pact of mutual assistance between Great Britain, France & the Soviet Union.

This offer was ignored by the British for 3 weeks, before Chamberlain sensing discontent within parliament over his reluctance to enter talks with the Soviets, reluctantly agreed to begin talks.

The Anglo/French/Soviet talks stuttered on for most of the summer months, mainly due to British intransigence. The Soviets doubted whether the British were really serious about the alliance. They also weren’t pleased with the deal the British proposed: (full Soviet support if the British & French became entangled in conflict with the Nazi’s, but no guarantee of support if the Nazi’s attacked her)

In an effort to gauge British interest in the talks, the Soviets suggested that Britain send its Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax to Moscow. Halifax refused to go & negotiate. His predecessor Anthony Eden offered to go but Chamberlain turned him down, instead sending the complete unknown William Strang. The appointment of Strang to head such an important mission to talk with Stalin & Molotov, was a signal to the Soviets that the British still did not take seriously the business of building an alliance to stop Hitler. The Soviets were also unimpressed by the military personnel put forward by the British. They had noted that in Anglo/Polish talks earlier in the year The British had sent top military people like General Ironside. However when it came to having talks with the Soviets, the British sent a man with the ultimate bourgeois name Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax!!

To add to the mounting chagrin of the Soviets, the British also sent the delegation by boat, which meant it wasted valuable time.

The source I used for that is William L. Shirer’s masterpiece “The Rise & Fall of The Third Reich”

The knowledge of a Soviet pact is not new news. What has always been disputed is how serious was the Soviet offer. Well in the last year or so more information has come to light. The revelations are quite staggering.

YouTube- Stalin wanted to stop Hitler in 1939 - report

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html