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RaggedTrousers
22-03-2013, 07:35 PM
Apologies if this is in the wrong section or has already been discussed. I got a leaflet in the door today from www.attackthetax.com. No mention of who is behind this. Sounds like freeman nonsense. Looking for €2 to become a shareholder to legally not pay.

This stuff makes me angry really, it is peddling nonsense and encouraging people into difficulty.

C. Flower
22-03-2013, 07:51 PM
Apologies if this is in the wrong section or has already been discussed. I got a leaflet in the door today from attackthetax.com. No mention of who is behind this. Sounds like freeman nonsense. Looking for €2 to become a shareholder to legally not pay.

This stuff makes me angry really, it is peddling nonsense and encouraging people into difficulty.

It looks like a scam. It's not often I would think of calling the Guards...

We are discussing Ben Gilroy and the Freemen on another thread - I think I'll open a subforum on this movement.

There were a couple of hundred people at the launch of Direct Democracy Ireland.

To be frank, I think that the Socialist Party has helped to create the ground for this with its anti-property-tax campaign.

I've been at CAWHT meetings in which the level of discussion was not much different.

Baron von Biffo
22-03-2013, 08:34 PM
Apologies if this is in the wrong section or has already been discussed. I got a leaflet in the door today from www.attackthetax.com. No mention of who is behind this. Sounds like freeman nonsense. Looking for €2 to become a shareholder to legally not pay.

This stuff makes me angry really, it is peddling nonsense and encouraging people into difficulty.

Those who routinely advocate and encourage tax dodging really don't give a damn about the negative consequences for anyone foolish enough to heed them.

Dojo
23-03-2013, 02:14 AM
Anyone advocating deliberate tax evasion should be jailed, and that includes those from the CAHWT, or whatever it is they call themselves. You can't pick and chose what taxes you don't feel like paying.

PaddyJoe
23-03-2013, 02:49 AM
Anyone advocating deliberate tax evasion should be jailed, and that includes those from the CAHWT, or whatever it is they call themselves. You can't pick and chose what taxes you don't feel like paying.

Really? I think you'll find that unjust impositions have been the main driver of revolutionary upheavals everywhere throughout history.

Dojo
23-03-2013, 01:31 PM
Really? I think you'll find that unjust impositions have been the main driver of revolutionary upheavals everywhere throughout history.

You'll get your chance for "revolution" at the next election.

Holly
23-03-2013, 01:34 PM
Anyone advocating deliberate tax evasion should be jailed, and that includes those from the CAHWT, or whatever it is they call themselves. You can't pick and chose what taxes you don't feel like paying.

Never hear of the Boston Tea Party?

Dojo
23-03-2013, 01:38 PM
Never hear of the Boston Tea Party?

I have. I also never heard of direct elections for American colonists to the British parliament back in 1775. Maybe if they had taxation WITH representation there wouldn't have been the world's largest cup of tea in Boston harbor harbour.

CMK
23-03-2013, 08:52 PM
It looks like a scam. It's not often I would think of calling the Guards...

We are discussing Ben Gilroy and the Freemen on another thread - I think I'll open a subforum on this movement.

There were a couple of hundred people at the launch of Direct Democracy Ireland.

To be frank, I think that the Socialist Party has helped to create the ground for this with its anti-property-tax campaign.



You are really are showing you're tenuous grasp of politics with that statement.

What's your basis for that claim? Are you saying that there should be no resistance to any austerity taxes lest it drag out some crazies who might be prone to believing Freeman nonsense. Are you saying that if we all just stayed at home and complained on the internet about how beastly the Troika are being that everything will improve?

I hope, and I mean I really hope, that you're not that detached from reality as to not know the composition of the CAHWT. If you're saying the CAHWT equals the Socialist Party, which is the logical predicate of that statement, then you're residing in political cloud cuckoo land. I doubt, however, that too many will rush in to disabuse you of that perception as it suits some people for that idea to have traction.

DDI is as about as far apart on the political spectrum from the SP as it's possible to be. You know that and yet your sectarianism is so strong that you couldn't resist a dig at the SP and descending to sub-Stephen Collins levels of analysis with that statement. In the process you've made a fool of yourself, I'm sorry to say.

C. Flower
23-03-2013, 09:33 PM
[QUOTE=CMK;324863]


What's your basis for that claim?

The basis is that the Socialist Party has made its central focus an anti-property tax movement, and abandoned the attempt to build a mass working class party in favour of the CAWHT.

It is an anti-tax movement. There is no socialist element to the CAWHT website. http://nohouseholdtax.org/ It's sole objective is to "defeat the tax".


Are you saying that there should be no resistance to any austerity taxes lest it drag out some crazies who might be prone to believing Freeman nonsense.

The CAWHT campaign, anti-tax, largely apolitical, based on boycott, and unrealistic about the difficulties involved in "defeating the tax/austerity" is not a million miles away from the Freeman nonsense.


I hope, and I mean I really hope, that you're not that detached from reality as to not know the composition of the CAHWT.
The composition of the CAWHT is variable from area to area. I've talked to plenty of people who have been to meetings, and on marches, and am aware of the left parties who are involved. What is your point about this, please ?

But it is not at this stage a mass campaign, so it would be easy for someone not to know this.


If you're saying the CAHWT equals the Socialist Party, which is the logical predicate of that statement, then you're residing in political cloud cuckoo land.

On the contrary, the CAWHT is open to anyone who is against the Tax (except Mick Wallace?).


DDI is as about as far apart on the political spectrum from the SP as it's possible to be.

My point is that the Socialist Party has thrown its resources disproportionately into a campaign which is anti-property-tax and which does not put forward any socialist solutions to the housing and local services crisis. It simplistically suggests that protests will "defeat the tax." It has thus prepared the ground politically for right wing anti-tax groups who have followed on from it - and in some cases individuals who have joined the CAWHT from this standpoint.

A socialist standpoint would look for the nationalisation of housing construction and public ownership of the urban housing stock, and a right to a secure home to all.


In the process you've made a fool of yourself, I'm sorry to say

Whether or not I've made a fool of myself on an internet thread is a small matter compared with the consequences of the Left abandoning any serious socialist programme in favour of populism.

Seán Ryan
28-03-2013, 10:45 PM
:)

http://www.attackthetax.com/downloads/household-charge-notice-to-phil-hogan-2711121.pdf

fluffybiscuits
30-03-2013, 12:49 AM
Read part 6 of non fatal offences against the person act,

If the demands cause humiliation!

This is really challenging stuff!

lies
17-04-2013, 09:51 AM
If the Irish courts were to suddenly agree with the assertions of that document, all schools and hospitals would close, and all Gards would disappear of the streets... if all taxation is slavery, well... we're all screwed...

Luckily it's not.

C. Flower
17-04-2013, 10:15 AM
If the Irish courts were to suddenly agree with the assertions of that document, all schools and hospitals would close, and all Gards would disappear of the streets... if all taxation is slavery, well... we're all screwed...

Luckily it's not.

+1. There was not enough taxation, in the boom.

The cuts in taxation in Ireland under FF and the PDs were partly what fuelled Ireland's personal debt, as people went out and leveraged boom time disposable income.

lies
17-04-2013, 10:35 AM
+1. There was not enough taxation, in the boom.

The cuts in taxation in Ireland under FF and the PDs were partly what fuelled Ireland's personal debt, as people went out and leveraged boom time disposable income.

Totally agree... the idea seemed to be that consumptions taxes (houses/cars) would last forever.

So short-sighted.

ibis
17-04-2013, 10:40 AM
+1. There was not enough taxation, in the boom.

The cuts in taxation in Ireland under FF and the PDs were partly what fuelled Ireland's personal debt, as people went out and leveraged boom time disposable income.

More precisely, taxation was moved from income to property transactions via stamp duty, which most people appeared to have borrowed to pay, meaning that Ireland's tax base rested on a borrowed money in a property bubble, while people's ability to pay inflated property prices rested on levels of post-tax income which wouldn't be sustained once the property bubble burst.

Had the government retained taxation on income rather than shifting it to stamp duties, mortgage multiples would have been lower in the first place - but then government revenues wouldn't have been so buoyant. Remarkable, really.

ibis
17-04-2013, 10:45 AM
I see DDI welcomed the letter as "a lawful challenge": http://www.directdemocracyireland.ie/the-people-fight-back-phil-hogan-and-his-ilk-may-be-charged-with-fraud-duplicity-re-the-household-charge-in-the-high-court/

lies
17-04-2013, 10:46 AM
I see DDI welcomed the letter as "a lawful challenge": http://www.directdemocracyireland.ie/the-people-fight-back-phil-hogan-and-his-ilk-may-be-charged-with-fraud-duplicity-re-the-household-charge-in-the-high-court/

Not legal, lawful... remember these con artists think they mean something totally different.

C. Flower
17-04-2013, 11:43 AM
More precisely, taxation was moved from income to property transactions via stamp duty, which most people appeared to have borrowed to pay, meaning that Ireland's tax base rested on a borrowed money in a property bubble, while people's ability to pay inflated property prices rested on levels of post-tax income which wouldn't be sustained once the property bubble burst.

Had the government retained taxation on income rather than shifting it to stamp duties, mortgage multiples would have been lower in the first place - but then government revenues wouldn't have been so buoyant. Remarkable, really.

The amount of disposable income chasing initially too few houses was itself a driver of house price increase, irrespective of the stamp duties.

There is no tradition of investing in anything other than property, land or bank shares in Ireland. One sweet inflationary vortex.

Baron von Biffo
17-04-2013, 11:56 AM
I see DDI welcomed the letter as "a lawful challenge": http://www.directdemocracyireland.ie/the-people-fight-back-phil-hogan-and-his-ilk-may-be-charged-with-fraud-duplicity-re-the-household-charge-in-the-high-court/

One thing the fringe right has in common with the fringe left is a fetish for amateur lawyers.

ibis
17-04-2013, 01:13 PM
One thing the fringe right has in common with the fringe left is a fetish for amateur lawyers.

Borne out in every referendum....

ibis
17-04-2013, 01:16 PM
The amount of disposable income chasing initially too few houses was itself a driver of house price increase, irrespective of the stamp duties.

There is no tradition of investing in anything other than property, land or bank shares in Ireland. One sweet inflationary vortex.

Yep. Plus, of course, while you're deciding what to do with the money, you stick it in the bank, which helps the banks lend more. Then you take out one of those equity-release loans, and you put that in the bank too. It's hard to think of anything that wasn't done to make the bubble bubblier.