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riposte
23-01-2013, 09:36 AM
"It will be an in-out referendum". Cameron paused, stared at the camera and realised he'd made history.

The EU has developed all the characteristics of an absolute monarch. The ECB is robbing the citizens like a rabid King John. The EU will not want to lose it's British province. They will be forced to modify their behaviour if they want to keep Britain in.

Such reforms could benefit Ireland. The British people have been greatly shocked by the way Ireland has been treated and this has fueled the anti-EU sentiment in Britain.

Shaadi
23-01-2013, 11:39 AM
Indirectly they are, anything which attempts to derail the USE project is to be welcomed. The reason for their Govt doing so may be more to do with protecting the interests of the City, but the British people do not want to be subsumed into ever-closer union and they're right.

I'm curious as to why Riposte thinks the British are overly concerned about how we've been treated.

toxic avenger
23-01-2013, 12:14 PM
This will be a first. I'll be voting on the same sides as the pro-Europeans on a European referendum for once! I feel slightly perturbed...

Holly
23-01-2013, 12:28 PM
Economically, it should make little difference for Ireland as Britain can have an economic agreement with the EU which will avoid tax and tariffs as part of a single market. The banking spivs, unfortunately, will be delighted in the how some financial services will shift from London to Dublin, exposing the Irish people to risk when their casinos run into trouble and the politicians again saddle the people with further debt.

toxic avenger
23-01-2013, 12:33 PM
I'll call it now - they won't vote to leave. I don't think it will even be close.

Shaadi
23-01-2013, 12:39 PM
There probably won't be a referendum at all. He said "IF" there was a Tory Govt returned after the next election, not if the Tories were returned to Govt as part of a coalition.

fluffybiscuits
23-01-2013, 12:42 PM
Economically, it should make little difference for Ireland as Britain can have an economic agreement with the EU which will avoid tax and tariffs as part of a single market. The banking spivs, unfortunately, will be delighted in the how some financial services will shift from London to Dublin, exposing the Irish people to risk when their casinos run into trouble and the politicians again saddle the people with further debt.

They can choose to remain in the European Economic Area...:)

toxic avenger
23-01-2013, 01:03 PM
There probably won't be a referendum at all. He said "IF" there was a Tory Govt returned after the next election, not if the Tories were returned to Govt as part of a coalition.

I think he has increased his chance of a Tory majority government now. Nonetheless, even with a coalition, it'd be nigh on impossible for him to claim that a referendum was not possible merely because they head a coalition (something which can obviously be foreseen as a distinct possibility when we already have one now).

Labour have already fallen into a trap - saying that they would not hold a referendum. Thus the Tories can now say that Labour do not trust the people to decide. Against that, Labour can make hay with Cameron's refusal to commit to withdrawal if he doesn't get these very vaguely defined 'reforms' - Cameron is very anxious not to leave himself a hostage to fortune by explicitly spelling out the nature of these reforms and thus being humiliated if he still continues then to support membership despite having failed to achieve them. Labour can make him squirm on that for quite some time.

I'm pretty certain the vote will be against withdrawal, I'd stake money on it. There are a lot of Eurosceptics, like me, who do not favour the nuclear option...

MediaBite
23-01-2013, 01:51 PM
This will be a first. I'll be voting on the same sides as the pro-Europeans on a European referendum for once! I feel slightly perturbed...

I'm perturbed to hear that too! Why so for which?

toxic avenger
23-01-2013, 02:01 PM
I'm perturbed to hear that too! Why so for which?

I'm a Eurosceptic but not a withdrawalist - I think withdrawal would be an economic disaster. I oppose political union, I think integration has gone far too far, I favour clawing back areas of sovereignty where possible and desirable, and my opposition to monetary and fiscal union goes without saying. But withdrawal is not the answer.

finnmccool
23-01-2013, 02:35 PM
Seems Cameron can't really decide himself He is Pm and yet he risks nothing Nothing but a plethora of verbal indifference to the concept of Europe so much sought after for many years. The indifference and political engineering to fend off Clegg in this parliament and the sure knowledge that he is a dead man walking into the next he can say what he wants really and its all smoke and mirrors

Cameron looks shocked and i suspect he has seen a few photos from Algeria , things he couldn't be expected to look at even a a top ranking PR buff They never had to look at the beheaded corpses and throats baking in the sun in Saatchi and Saatchi. I even thought the images are still regurgitating in his gut . He now must realise that this is no fun thing or persona puff Its a rzal world thing he need master Getting out of Europe isn't the issue fedning off Nigel Farage and his 150000 post is the problem If cameron takes the high road where is he to get the Euro pension .from if he backs out of the EU.

I will ask the writer of the topic if he has any other things up his sleeve because i would have approached the question since the morning in different terms How glad are those in Europe to see the back of England now that England has expressed a wish to leave Quel ambiance for the next G20

Slim Buddha
23-01-2013, 02:52 PM
Nothing but a plethora of verbal indifference to the concept of Europe so much sought after for many years.



I do not think the "Europe" we have now was"sought after for many years" by anyone.

Record unemployment, collapsed banking system, common currency for 17 members not functioning properly, burst property bubbles and rising discontent with the EU throughout Europe.

It has badly lost its way, it has never really addressed the democratic deficit inherent within it and Nigel Farage is not the only one who is deeply disillusioned with it.

riposte
23-01-2013, 03:03 PM
Indirectly they are, anything which attempts to derail the USE project is to be welcomed. The reason for their Govt doing so may be more to do with protecting the interests of the City, but the British people do not want to be subsumed into ever-closer union and they're right.

I'm curious as to why Riposte thinks the British are overly concerned about how we've been treated.

Half my siblings live in Britain...... (I'm the eldest of 12) .... none of them have become anglofied ...... probably all would vote Sinn Fein if they were back here... but what surprised me most talking to them was that .....they were all vehemently opposed to Britain entering the Euro. Now that sounds emininently sensible now .... but it wasn't that so obvious at the time.

The Irish have a lot of influence in Britain ...... many MPs are of Irish extraction. The way Ireland has been treated by the EU and the ECB makes headlines regularly in UK news bulletins. There can be little doubt that the basic unfairness and un-equalness of the EU has been re-inforced in the minds of the Brits arising from has happened to Ireland.

fluffybiscuits
23-01-2013, 03:09 PM
Half my siblings live in Britain...... (I'm the eldest of 12) .... none of them have become anglofied ...... probably all would vote Sinn Fein if they were back here... but what surprised me most talking to them was that .....they were all vehemently opposed to Britain entering the Euro. Now that sounds emininently sensible now .... but it wasn't that so obvious at the time.

The Irish have a lot of influence in Britain ...... many MPs are of Irish extraction. The way Ireland has been treated by the EU and the ECB makes headlines regularly in UK news bulletins. There can be little doubt that the basic unfairness and un-equalness of the EU has been re-inforced in the minds of the Brits arising from has happened to Ireland.

How many?

Apjp
23-01-2013, 03:13 PM
The EU has developed all the characteristics of an absolute monarch. The ECB is robbing the citizens like a rabid King John. The EU will not want to lose it's British province. They will be forced to modify their behaviour if they want to keep Britain in.

Such reforms could benefit Ireland. The British people have been greatly shocked by the way Ireland has been treated and this has fueled the anti-EU sentiment in Britain.

Somehow I doubt anybody in Britain, save for perhaps a minority of the Irish emigrants newly arrived, blames anybody except the Irish for the extortion we are facing. It would be a nice thought, but it simply cannot be true. Least of all when it comes to Tories who only ever have their own interests in mind, and the majority of British voters in England as of late have voted for such a party.

It may however be a minor factor in their post EU operations-if they can get Ireland out of the EU with them, they may succeed in breaking the whole thing up and have a ready supply of food, energy resources, willing English speaking labourers and land at their doorstep.

toxic avenger
23-01-2013, 03:26 PM
Half my siblings live in Britain...... (I'm the eldest of 12) .... none of them have become anglofied ...... probably all would vote Sinn Fein if they were back here... but what surprised me most talking to them was that .....they were all vehemently opposed to Britain entering the Euro. Now that sounds emininently sensible now .... but it wasn't that so obvious at the time.



When I arrived over in Ireland in the 1990s I tried to explain to people there why the single currency was a disastrous idea, particularly the straightjacket of a one size fits all intrest rate and monetary policy. Not a single person understood what I was talking about (even among people studying economics at UCC). Every single time I was told that it'd be great not to have to change money at the airport and that, sure, you're from England, you are influenced by little England tabloids.

The EU, then, was like a cult that could not be questioned - but now those same people would deny they ever said any such thing and will berate the EU as if they always had (and even, the gall of it, attack me for saying it's too late to pull out of the Euro now!).

It made me fully aware that I was not Irish, not like them, but rather very specifically London Irish.

toxic avenger
23-01-2013, 03:33 PM
How many?

Loads of Irish descent.. You also have the odd Irish-born MP for English constituencies, like Kate Hoey for Vauxhall, and Conor Burns for somewhere on the south coast.

The latter is of interest - he has made a name for himself recently by being critical of Cameron and co. on Europe and other stuff - he is a right-wing Thatcherite (friends with Mrs. Thatcher herself, apparently) and a staunch unionist. And yet, get this, he's a gay Belfast Catholic... More to the point, he was a prefect at my school in the 1980s, and I thought him a **** back then when I was 11 or 12. He would walk around the playground as if he were balancing invisible books on his head, typical prefect type who was too sycophantic and dim to see that he was doing the teachers' job for them for free. He took part in a debate with a Dublin-born prefect soon after the Gibraltar killings, actually defending the killings. There is a serious psychological complex there...

fluffybiscuits
23-01-2013, 03:37 PM
Loads of Irish descent.. You also have the odd Irish-born MP for English constituencies, like Kate Hoey for Vauxhall, and Conor Burns for somewhere on the south coast.

The latter is of interest - he has made a name for himself recently by being critical of Cameron and co. on Europe and other stuff - he is a right-wing Thatcherite (friends with Mrs. Thatcher herself, apparently) and a staunch unionist. And yet, get this, he's a gay Belfast Catholic... More to the point, he was a prefect at my school in the 1980s, and I thought him a **** back then when I was 11 or 12. He would walk around the playground as if he were balancing invisible books on his head, typical prefect type who was too sycophantic and dim to see that he was doing the teachers' job for them for free. He took part in a debate with a Dublin-born prefect soon after the Gibraltar killings, actually defending the killings. There is a serious psychological complex there...

Ouch ! He sounds like someone I wouldnt like to have a drink with!

Shaadi
23-01-2013, 03:56 PM
When I arrived over in Ireland in the 1990s I tried to explain to people there why the single currency was a disastrous idea, particularly the straightjacket of a one size fits all intrest rate and monetary policy. Not a single person understood what I was talking about (even among people studying economics at UCC). Every single time I was told that it'd be great not to have to change money at the airport and that, sure, you're from England, you are influenced by little England tabloids.

The EU, then, was like a cult that could not be questioned - but now those same people would deny they ever said any such thing and will berate the EU as if they always had (and even, the gall of it, attack me for saying it's too late to pull out of the Euro now!).

It made me fully aware that I was not Irish, not like them, but rather very specifically London Irish.That charming lady from the Daily Mail Mary Ellen Synon explained it all fairly well before we joined the Euro. How lack of control of interest rates would fuel a boom in the periphery and how it would all end in tears.

Nobody wanted to listen, just like nobody wanted to listen to those that thought paying too much for housing was stupid and bad for our competitivness. At every stage greed and short-term thinking won the day.

They'd do it all again given half a chance.

@Riposte I'm fairly sure that British Euroscepticism has little to do with empathy for us and lot's to do with Britians long-standing pride in their Independence from European dominantion.

riposte
23-01-2013, 04:14 PM
@Riposte I'm fairly sure that British Euroscepticism has little to do with empathy for us and lot's to do with Britians long-standing pride in their Independence from European dominantion.

"We're on the one road
Sharing the one load
We're on the road to God knows where
We're on the one road
It may be the wrong road
But we're together now who cares"

Apjp
23-01-2013, 04:15 PM
The irony of Ireland's long standing pride of achieving independence from British domination and yet silent acquiesence to European domination is still not lost on me Shaadi. I sincerely hope for a good showing for the WP/SF in the Meath East election, if only for hope's sake that people will do more than just the odd boycott and anti-ff vote in future.

riposte
23-01-2013, 04:22 PM
Peter Mandleson said " Cameron has put a gun to Europe's head." All together now .... Hip Hip, Hooray!

Slim Buddha
23-01-2013, 05:14 PM
Somehow I doubt anybody in Britain, save for perhaps a minority of the Irish emigrants newly arrived, blames anybody except the Irish for the extortion we are facing. .

Who else should be blamed?? What is happening now is a consequence of the profligate, wasteful, economically illiterate and wholly inept "leadership" Ireland endured under the FF/PD administration. The blame for the catastrophe happening in Ireland now should be placed at the door of these two parties and those who led them.

jmcc
23-01-2013, 05:21 PM
Peter Mandleson said " Cameron has put a gun to Europe's head." All together now .... Hip Hip, Hooray!Lock and load. :)

Regards...jmcc

Shaadi
23-01-2013, 07:17 PM
"We're on the one road
Sharing the one load
We're on the road to God knows where
We're on the one road
It may be the wrong road
But we're together now who cares"My enemy's enemy is my er, friend.:eek: Let's not go totally crazy, let's leave it at ally.

riposte
23-01-2013, 07:35 PM
My enemy's enemy is my er, friend.:eek: Let's not go totally crazy, let's leave it at ally.

lol !!

Apjp
23-01-2013, 08:23 PM
Who else should be blamed?? What is happening now is a consequence of the profligate, wasteful, economically illiterate and wholly inept "leadership" Ireland endured under the FF/PD administration. The blame for the catastrophe happening in Ireland now should be placed at the door of these two parties and those who led them.

Do you think we should pay these banking debts that we have no responsibility for just because FF and the PD's were lazy and corrupt? I would say we have blamed ourselves enough already and suffered more besides and that it is about time an Irish government got a pair of balls and told Europe these are not our debts. It is a robbery, and the stupidity of the previous shower aside, it is useless to continue blaming them for everything when they were only 50% of the problem. The EU's banking cartel and the ECB happily gorged as well and now want us to pay the full whack. I don't think anyone in Europe should pay for banking debts and I will not blame myself and everyone around me for everything that is happening to us. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html Ireland is paying more than anyone else to keep the bankers afloat.

I'm a bit sick of us feeling sorry for ourselves and blaming everything that's still happening on Fianna Fail and sure why bother doing anything about it cos the lads in Europe didn't profit from the boom at all, and they sure as hell aren't profiting from our misery now. The current shower are equally responsible and the profiteers in Europe should not be let off lightly in their share of the blame either.

Merkel is as happy as Kenny or Cowen in our misery and so is as much deserving of our contempt. the puppet politicians come and go off the stage. Their paymasters remain in charge, as was the case from 2008 onwards. They are taking advantage of the crisis to further their own agenda.

morticia
23-01-2013, 09:10 PM
Hang on a second, whoa horses, slow down....

First of all, this is pretty heavily hedged... No referendum unless the Tories get an overall majority in the next election. Since the economy over there is not enjoying a roaring boom, I'd consider this very unlikely.

Second of all, this is not in the interests of UK manufacturing or industry. It is in the interests of the City, which is a runaway train at best. It's putting the gambling addicts in the driving seat with a boulder on the accelerator. Anyone who thinks this move is a plus for financial stability should go take some more pills.

This is electioneering, pure and simple. The UK population go through a school system that largely teaches them that their domineering colonial history was a plus and hence, there's a bit of a national superiority complex. There's also almost 1000 year of history wrt the French and almost 100 wrt the Germans. The propaganda would persuade most, I think, to lean in the direction of a No vote.

Riposte is half right re sympathy for Ireland. The same propagandists are running a " poor little bullied Ireland" line to try and encourage a No vote.... "This is what might have happened here if we joined the Euro" etc. UKIP have actually gone to the lengths of propagandising here (the last referendum and, possibly, links with Libertas). No one should make the mistake of confusing Nigel Farage in a leprechaun hat with actual solidarity. The minute anyone here asked for any help, they'd start taking advantage.

This is Cameron covering his right flank and trying to out manoeuvre UKIP. We'll see if it works. I doubt it, myself, they're already on the telly saying its a cop out. Meanwhile, the US is making its position very clear.. " you're not much use unless you stay in", and the Sprouts are unlikely to budge very far on concessions. I'd suspect this could end in Two ways... 1) a referendum sooner rather than later as Cameron's hands are forced, or 2) the hot air fizzling out, followed by a Labour election win.

As far as we are concerned, we should be very careful. We tend to think UK out us in might be bad, but it might end up with a lot of businesses being forced to operate through Dublin if they want to trade in the EU without barriers. Especially if the US gets annoyed with them next door. We'd lose some financial services, perhaps. But, like I said, it's unlikely to happen anyway.

riposte
23-01-2013, 09:27 PM
Riposte is half right re sympathy for Ireland. The same propagandists are running a " poor little bullied Ireland" line to try and encourage a No vote.... "This is what might have happened here if we joined the Euro" etc. UKIP have actually gone to the lengths of propagandising here (the last referendum and, possibly, links with Libertas). No one should make the mistake of confusing Nigel Farage in a leprechaun hat with actual solidarity. The minute anyone here asked for any help, they'd start taking advantage.



The Brits gave us a bi-lateral loan of 7 Billion.

riposte
24-01-2013, 12:04 AM
I just saw Nigel Farage being interviewed....... he was shocked.

Cameron has shot his fox.

Slim Buddha
24-01-2013, 06:13 AM
Do you think we should pay these banking debts that we have no responsibility for just because FF and the PD's were lazy and corrupt? I would say we have blamed ourselves enough already and suffered more besides and that it is about time an Irish government got a pair of balls and told Europe these are not our debts. It is a robbery, and the stupidity of the previous shower aside, it is useless to continue blaming them for everything when they were only 50% of the problem. The EU's banking cartel and the ECB happily gorged as well and now want us to pay the full whack. I don't think anyone in Europe should pay for banking debts and I will not blame myself and everyone around me for everything that is happening to us. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html Ireland is paying more than anyone else to keep the bankers afloat.

I'm a bit sick of us feeling sorry for ourselves and blaming everything that's still happening on Fianna Fail and sure why bother doing anything about it cos the lads in Europe didn't profit from the boom at all, and they sure as hell aren't profiting from our misery now. The current shower are equally responsible and the profiteers in Europe should not be let off lightly in their share of the blame either.

Merkel is as happy as Kenny or Cowen in our misery and so is as much deserving of our contempt. the puppet politicians come and go off the stage. Their paymasters remain in charge, as was the case from 2008 onwards. They are taking advantage of the crisis to further their own agenda.


The easy way out is to blame the ECB, the Germans, Schäuble & Merkel, the Troika, the European Commission, the man in the moon and anyone else you care to mention.

Yes, it is appalling what is happening and I understand your frustration. But my own view is that we have not even begun to address the question of dealing with those who created this mess. Not alone are these people not being called to account for their actions, we are showering them with gold plated pensions. Not alone are we not taking timely legal actions against the bankers who recklessly ran up debts which rendered all of them insolvent, those very same people are teeing off in Druids Glen. Not alone have we created a builders corporate welfare scheme in NAMA, we are allowing the people who created the property shambles run their own show with taxpayers money.

In fact, the three groups of people who are primarily responsible for the economic chernoybl in Ireland are the three groups who have remained relatively unscathed by the economic consequences and are arguably doing better than the vast majority of the population to whom the passed the bill for their greed/incompetence/corruption.

And you cannot blame anyone else for that.

DCon
24-01-2013, 07:52 AM
UK Press like it

https://o.twimg.com/1/proxy.jpg?t=FQQVBBgpaHR0cHM6Ly90d2l0cGljLmNvbS9zaG 93L2xhcmdlL2J4czdhYy5qcGcUAhYAEgA&s=ayF_-gJz4soWgqYk-BlPYuMjIr5SihOujScmaUCmfCs

Slim Buddha
24-01-2013, 08:09 AM
The UK press do like it and it has implications for us too. Given that we are, according to Pat Rabbitte, due to build an extensive network of wind turbines to export energy ot the UK in the long term, it is clear that Britain is looking to secure its long term energy needs now that North Sea oil is in permanent decline.

If reports are to be believed, most of these will be located in the midlands, so this will be a huge boost to the economy of midland counties. If the Baron were here, he would be as pleased as punch.

fluffybiscuits
24-01-2013, 11:42 AM
The UK press do like it and it has implications for us too. Given that we are, according to Pat Rabbitte, due to build an extensive network of wind turbines to export energy ot the UK in the long term, it is clear that Britain is looking to secure its long term energy needs now that North Sea oil is in permanent decline.

If reports are to be believed, most of these will be located in the midlands, so this will be a huge boost to the economy of midland counties. If the Baron were here, he would be as pleased as punch.

And with Scotland looking for full independence they know they wonthave as much access to the oil!

riposte
24-01-2013, 12:38 PM
And with Scotland looking for full independence they know they wonthave as much access to the oil!

Contrary to the perceived wisdom the Scots might be even more reluctant to vote for independence if they think they will be in the EU while England and Wales are out.

Watch for the poll figures for Scottish independence dropping in the wake of this announcement.

Cameron may have killed two birds with one stone.

Richardbouvet
24-01-2013, 01:21 PM
Assuming the referendum takes place in something like present conditions, which way will SF advise people in the North to vote?

Greengoddess
24-01-2013, 02:07 PM
The people to watch is not the Tories but the British Labour Party

This is an interesting piece from a website called " labour uncut" . (!)

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2013/01/23/today-ed-miliband-was-damaged-by-cameron’s-speech-but-the-pain-is-coming-for-the-tories/

fluffybiscuits
24-01-2013, 03:34 PM
Contrary to the perceived wisdom the Scots might be even more reluctant to vote for independence if they think they will be in the EU while England and Wales are out.

Watch for the poll figures for Scottish independence dropping in the wake of this announcement.

Cameron may have killed two birds with one stone.

Regardless Scotland could become a member of the EEA.

Then again most of the Scottish dont know that IMO...

Apjp
24-01-2013, 07:15 PM
The easy way out is to blame the ECB, the Germans, Schäuble & Merkel, the Troika, the European Commission, the man in the moon and anyone else you care to mention.

Yes, it is appalling what is happening and I understand your frustration. But my own view is that we have not even begun to address the question of dealing with those who created this mess. Not alone are these people not being called to account for their actions, we are showering them with gold plated pensions. Not alone are we not taking timely legal actions against the bankers who recklessly ran up debts which rendered all of them insolvent, those very same people are teeing off in Druids Glen. Not alone have we created a builders corporate welfare scheme in NAMA, we are allowing the people who created the property shambles run their own show with taxpayers money.

In fact, the three groups of people who are primarily responsible for the economic chernoybl in Ireland are the three groups who have remained relatively unscathed by the economic consequences and are arguably doing better than the vast majority of the population to whom the passed the bill for their greed/incompetence/corruption.

And you cannot blame anyone else for that.

Be all of that as it may, please answer my question. Do you think the Irish deserve to pay 42% of Europe's bank debts, more than any other country? Maybe a better question would be , should anyone in europe at all, least of all us-a tiny battered economy-be paying for this mess? These are criminal banking debts, and no matter what way it is spun, the Irish have been conned into paying them and under threat of extortion, we are told to keep paying them.

And one other question: if a future government is elected that refuses to pay these shyster debts, would you see that as the right choice, or is everyone in Ireland to blame for the actions of both our own and Europe's elites?

This 'we' all partied line of the Irish elites is getting very tiresome and I would like to think you yourself don't wish that misery on us, or more specifically on those who will be left here to pick up the pieces in the coming years. Please do not confuse my abhorring of Ireland paying everyone's bank debts with sympathy for Fianna Fail

Slim Buddha
24-01-2013, 08:04 PM
Be all of that as it may, please answer my question. Do you think the Irish deserve to pay 42% of Europe's bank debts, more than any other country? Maybe a better question would be , should anyone in europe at all, least of all us-a tiny battered economy-be paying for this mess? These are criminal banking debts, and no matter what way it is spun, the Irish have been conned into paying them and under threat of extortion, we are told to keep paying them.

And one other question: if a future government is elected that refuses to pay these shyster debts, would you see that as the right choice, or is everyone in Ireland to blame for the actions of both our own and Europe's elites?

This 'we' all partied line of the Irish elites is getting very tiresome and I would like to think you yourself don't wish that misery on us, or more specifically on those who will be left here to pick up the pieces in the coming years. Please do not confuse my abhorring of Ireland paying everyone's bank debts with sympathy for Fianna Fail


Of course I dont. Bur it is what the FF/PD coalition lumbered us with. This government now is just as useless. Not even a token protest. The big question is what kind of derivatives crap is on the books of the German banks?

We should have killed ALL the Irish banks in 2008. We do not need Irish banks. They should have been driven into insolvency. No exceptions. That was the opportunity we missed.

morticia
24-01-2013, 08:57 PM
The Brits gave us a bi-lateral loan of 7 Billion.

Our banks owed theirs 169 bn in 2008. Bailing out their own banks by the back door. They're **** scared the ECB will drop this particular ball; if we go down, so does the UK banking industry.

And they might want to pull us out with them.

ang
24-01-2013, 09:07 PM
The Irish in recent opinion polls have expressed a wish to remain within the EU. The UK does not have the power to change that.

This debate in Britain will roll on for years. David Cameron first need to get re-elected and would then need to negotiate a deal with the EU that could be seen to be beneficial to the UK remaining within the EU.

There is no doubt reform is needed and this may be helpful in starting the process.

Dr. FIVE
24-01-2013, 09:19 PM
.

morticia
24-01-2013, 09:36 PM
Oh, they don't have any power to change that, but would persuasion work?? Monetary persuasion, even?? I doubt it, but expect them to try...

fluffybiscuits
24-01-2013, 11:14 PM
The Irish in recent opinion polls have expressed a wish to remain within the EU. The UK does not have the power to change that.

This debate in Britain will roll on for years. David Cameron first need to get re-elected and would then need to negotiate a deal with the EU that could be seen to be beneficial to the UK remaining within the EU.

There is no doubt reform is needed and this may be helpful in starting the process.


They can use that same deal that Norway and Iceland have and remain in the European Economic Area. This allows some degree of flexibilty, compliance with some laws and an ability to not have to pay a 'tithe' to Europe although whether this is what the UK wants remains to be seen. All of this could be just a ploy by Cameron to win some populism as the UKIP being massive Eurosceptics and doing well in the polls are snapping at the heals of the Tories in the polls and look set to finish second behind the Lib Dems in any future election much to the detriment of the UK and their European ambitions. Cameron may be hoping to win back or win over a few of these UKIP voters.

Apjp
24-01-2013, 11:59 PM
Of course I dont. Bur it is what the FF/PD coalition lumbered us with. This government now is just as useless. Not even a token protest. The big question is what kind of derivatives crap is on the books of the German banks?

We should have killed ALL the Irish banks in 2008. We do not need Irish banks. They should have been driven into insolvency. No exceptions. That was the opportunity we missed.

It is never too late to kill off the cartels. But the problem we face if a future government in 2015 or 2020 takes the reins-possibly Sinn fein and some other unknowns in the republican/left sphere-is that THE cartel that is the ECB will have to be taken on to get any debt reduction. I agree it should have been done years ago, but the only difference between then and now is that the ECB holds a lot of these debts, rather than the original banks who lent the money to the Irish ones. Having said all that, these Anglo debts are going to be rolled out for years so such a government could still stop the madness of paying them.

fluffybiscuits
25-01-2013, 12:00 AM
It is never too late to kill off the cartels. But the problem we face if a future government in 2015 or 2020 takes the reins-possibly Sinn fein and some other unknowns in the republican/left sphere-is that THE cartel that is the ECB will have to be taken on to get any debt reduction. I agree it should have been done years ago, but the only difference between then and now is that the ECB holds a lot of these debts, rather than the original banks who lent the money to the Irish ones. Having said all that, these Anglo debts are going to be rolled out for years so such a government could still stop the madness of paying them.

Just on a related note, how would we take down these cartels?

Apjp
25-01-2013, 12:04 AM
Just on a related note, how would we take down these cartels?

I really do think it is as simple as leaving the euro and not bailing them out. We would probably face a year or two of economic hardship, but nothing compared to what we will endure if we let this drag on 40 years(which may as well be forever) like the troika want us to. Whatever about a reformed EU with more powers for nation states, if this government had any brains they would be making alliances all over the shop and playing Merkel and Cameron off each other for our own interests of ensuring we have some sovereignty left to recover and getting a substantial write down of these scandalous debts. The only way the EU could work is an end to the euro in its' current form and a significant repatriation of powers as well as an end to the current dictating. Basically it should never have gone beyond the single market.

ang
25-01-2013, 11:26 AM
Colm Mc Carthy on PK earlier believes that Ireland should take advantage of UK re negotiation on the EU to haul economic control back to Dublin from Berlin.

I agree we could use this to our advantage.

The Germans are concerned about UK leaving the EU as they are amongst their top 5 trading partners and a poll has shown that Germans themselves believe for the EU to succeed the UK must remain a part of it. DC has a stronger hand here than he is given credit for and other Nations within the EU are backing him.

fluffybiscuits
25-01-2013, 11:33 AM
I really do think it is as simple as leaving the euro and not bailing them out. We would probably face a year or two of economic hardship, but nothing compared to what we will endure if we let this drag on 40 years(which may as well be forever) like the troika want us to. Whatever about a reformed EU with more powers for nation states, if this government had any brains they would be making alliances all over the shop and playing Merkel and Cameron off each other for our own interests of ensuring we have some sovereignty left to recover and getting a substantial write down of these scandalous debts. The only way the EU could work is an end to the euro in its' current form and a significant repatriation of powers as well as an end to the current dictating. Basically it should never have gone beyond the single market.

For Ireland to leave the Euro or the whole Euro scrapped together? Economically the implications would be huge but yes we could devalue our way out of the recession amd the one size fits all model goes into the bin or back to the drawing board.

riposte
25-01-2013, 12:06 PM
colm mc carthy on pk earlier believes that ireland should take advantage of uk re negotiation on the eu to haul economic control back to dublin from berlin.

I agree we could use this to our advantage.

The germans are concerned about uk leaving the eu as they are amongst their top 5 trading partners and a poll has shown that germans themselves believe for the eu to succeed the uk must remain a part of it. Dc has a stronger hand here than he is given credit for and other nations within the eu are backing him.

+100%

Holly
25-01-2013, 12:26 PM
...
The Germans are concerned about UK leaving the EU as they are amongst their top 5 trading partners and a poll has shown that Germans themselves believe for the EU to succeed the UK must remain a part of it. DC has a stronger hand here than he is given credit for and other Nations within the EU are backing him.

I see it differently. de Gaulle was right to keep out England because he understood them to be a nation of shopkeepers without a vision for an ever closer union. The Germans cannot be bothered with the English.

fluffybiscuits
25-01-2013, 01:19 PM
I see it differently. de Gaulle was right to keep out England because he understood them to be a nation of shopkeepers without a vision for an ever closer union. The Germans cannot be bothered with the English.

They dislike one and other, that would explain that!

Apjp
25-01-2013, 02:10 PM
I see it differently. de Gaulle was right to keep out England because he understood them to be a nation of shopkeepers without a vision for an ever closer union. The Germans cannot be bothered with the English.

De Gaulle was completely against a USE. He was rightly suspicious of the intents of the EU's founding fathers, especially Jean Monnet and one or two others with questionable backgrounds who wanted 'an ever closer union'.

Holly
25-01-2013, 03:57 PM
De Gaulle was completely against a USE. He was rightly suspicious of the intents of the EU's founding fathers, especially Jean Monnet and one or two others with questionable backgrounds who wanted 'an ever closer union'.

I'm not so sure, Apjp. "Characteristically, de Gaulle spoke of modern France and modern Germany as direct continuations of medieval Gallic and Teutonic kingdoms and underlined that they had been complementary in those distant times. These historical heartlands of Europe should now come closer, he argued, while somewhat unrealistically hoping that France would be the preeminent partner and Paris the center of the relationship."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/de-gaulle-s-vision-of-europe-and-the-problems-of-the-contemporary-balkans/22287

Dr. FIVE
07-07-2014, 09:04 PM
There is an interesting contrast between the official story of Ireland and England being all 'mature' & equal best buddies now and Irish policymakers shitting themselves about getting a raw deal in negotiations if England leaves the EU. There is an another interesting part too, EU evangelists routinely talk about us being part of the 'largest trading market in the world', why then do we remain so reliant on trade with Britain? Or is the better question, in whose interest is it that the Irish economy has never developed beyond what has been for the past few centuries?

morticia
07-07-2014, 09:06 PM
Actually, we are, believe it or not, the UK's largest trading partner too. A lot of that is probably MNC driven, but the dependence goes both ways.


"The floggings will continue until morale improves"

Apjp
07-07-2014, 09:52 PM
Some call it fornication.

Another submissive blot on our outsourced untaxed foreign owned caravan park economy.

Dr. FIVE
07-07-2014, 10:09 PM
Actually, we are, believe it or not, the UK's largest trading partner too. A lot of that is probably MNC driven, but the dependence goes both ways.


I thought that was true too, it was said around the time Osborne threw us a dig out - wonder where that cash went actually. But I think I saw someone mention we are now their forth of fifth largest partner. On the original point, I mean we've had an awful lot of elaborate statecraft about drawing lines under our 'sad and regrettable' history and 'maturely' overcoming challenges. We have so much in common now don't we, "golden threads", equality among nations. The powers that be are very quick to wave away the past and present, we saw how dissent was treated during both trips, 'people living in the past", so given there are unlikely to be bombs going off or Tans burning people out of houses, why panic about diplomacy and potential new treaties? It is almost as if all the new relationship stuff is nonsense or maybe there is something they are not telling us?

PaddyJoe
07-07-2014, 10:55 PM
This conversation has just reminded me of a very apposite piece in the Phoenix this week. That Prime Time doc a couple of weeks back on British torture in the seventies and how it was approved at the highest level of government was completely ignored.



http://i57.tinypic.com/whxu2q.png

Ogiol
08-07-2014, 11:45 AM
Indeed this was just completely brushed under the carpet... Larger things are afoot and the reaction to this investigation and evidence of torture sanctioned at the highest level seems not to fit into the meta-narrative being pushed by those in the upper echelons. There are people who disagree with this 'policy' and I think that any push to sweep everything under the carpet will be resisted and defeated. It's all up in the air though at the minute.

morticia
08-07-2014, 07:15 PM
Possibly good to remember at this point that we weren't the only ones on the sharp end of the stick...the Empire covered half the planet at one point. There is also the institutionalised system of abuse that went on in some children's homes and public schools...fagging, anyone? Train up dysfunctional leaders, plonk 'em in the Army, and send 'em off to screw stuff up abroad. See also the Kincora on Thames thread....


"The floggings will continue until morale improves"

Ogiol
08-07-2014, 07:44 PM
Possibly good to remember at this point that we weren't the only ones on the sharp end of the stick...the Empire covered half the planet at one point. There is also the institutionalised system of abuse that went on in some children's homes and public schools...fagging, anyone? Train up dysfunctional leaders, plonk 'em in the Army, and send 'em off to screw stuff up abroad. See also the Kincora on Thames thread....

"The floggings will continue until morale improves"

Good point, but remember we were the first overseas colony, and also their empire lab where all sorts of things were tried out first: plantation -(colonisation), language discrimination, ''famine'', torture methods, counter-insurgency tactics and of course media manipulation... quite a lot of first there ;)

morticia
08-07-2014, 09:18 PM
We were also one of the first to slip the net, though, after the good ole' US of A...and they got away with more in Africa, India etc...fewer literate observers and far more people to go after


"The floggings will continue until morale improves"

Apjp
08-07-2014, 11:41 PM
sure why dont we all vote ff so. they love the queen dont they. this is about anglo irish relations not kowtowing and handwringing.

Did you vote for that smug redmondite bruton back in the day too?

A substantial minority of people refused to br colonised-three of my grandads uncles were IRA officers-but the revisionists want to paint our ancestors as crackpots and their actions as aimless murder.

It is beyond a joke that the men amd women who rescued this country from eternal slavery should be apologised for. John Bruton should lose his passport. it is like pissing on the alamo

Apjp
08-07-2014, 11:49 PM
I know its ideology but its still beyond a pisstake a former head of govt turns out to be a redmondite. why didnt he move to newry and run for westminster for the dup. they are home rulers too sure.

morticia
09-07-2014, 08:38 AM
Erm, apjp, the Queen visited under an FG Lab govt, not FF.


"The floggings will continue until morale improves"

C. Flower
21-09-2015, 02:51 PM
Pig in poke, lipstick on pig, and all other truly offensive and puerile Cameron joke topics welcome here...

pluralist
21-09-2015, 03:07 PM
Pig in poke, lipstick on pig, and all other truly offensive and puerile Cameron joke topics welcome here...

I used to follow Ashcroft on Twitter for his polling data and had a vague sense he was planning something, particularly when he voluntarily relinquished his seat in the House of Lords.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/31/lord-ashcroft-resigns-from-house-of-lords-to-focus-on-polling-and-publishing

Hell hath no fury like a billionaire scorned...as they say in the Square Mile.

Spectabilis
21-09-2015, 03:14 PM
Pig in poke, lipstick on pig, and all other truly offensive and puerile Cameron joke topics welcome here...


Some goodies on #baeofpigs

morticia
21-09-2015, 04:19 PM
Hi,

More on "pork back mountain" from the Indo;

David Cameron put 'private part' in dead pig's mouth while an Oxford student, book claims

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/david-cameron-put-private-part-in-dead-pigs-mouth-while-an-oxford-student-book-claims-31544450.html

And from WWN...

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/09/21/wwn-horoscopes-49/

pluralist
21-10-2015, 01:36 AM
Possibly good to remember at this point that we weren't the only ones on the sharp end of the stick...the Empire covered half the planet at one point. There is also the institutionalised system of abuse that went on in some children's homes and public schools...fagging, anyone? Train up dysfunctional leaders, plonk 'em in the Army, and send 'em off to screw stuff up abroad. See also the Kincora on Thames thread....


"The floggings will continue until morale improves"

Yep.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOZDKlpybZE

Also a very astute and under rated Brit-flick from the mid '80s, "The Whistleblower":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu6uSSPnRws

riposte
31-01-2016, 11:49 PM
Tusk says ‘no deal yet’ after Brexit dinner with Cameron

European Council president and U.K. prime minister want to consult Berlin and Paris on renegotiation.

David Cameron and European Council President Donald Tusk failed to clinch a deal at dinner on Sunday on the U.K. prime minister’s demands for renegotiated membership of the EU, postponing the release of a draft text for another 24 hours.

Tusk, who had hoped to present the proposals to the other 27 EU countries on Monday, ahead of a “Brexit” summit on February 18, left the dinner in Downing Street after two hours telling reporters: “No deal.” He then tweeted: “No deal yet. Intensive work in next 24 [hours] crucial.”

http://www.politico.eu/article/eus-tusk-says-no-deal-after-brexit-dinner-with-cameron/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=alert&utm_campaign=EU%27s+Tusk+says+%27no+deal%27+after+ Brexit+dinner+with+Cameron

riposte
01-02-2016, 12:19 AM
It's looking like Cameron will have a job to convince voters that he got anything.

finnmccool
01-02-2016, 08:07 AM
Cameron s not trustworthyand will pin t out until he leaves office. Britain should leave the Eu and leave us in peace since British involvement in Europe has been entirely one sided . The idea European nationhood sits badly on the xenophobic British conscience because their origins are so like those they castigate!

C. Flower
01-02-2016, 08:41 AM
Cameron s not trustworthyand will pin t out until he leaves office. Britain should leave the Eu and leave us in peace since British involvement in Europe has been entirely one sided . The idea European nationhood sits badly on the xenophobic British conscience because their origins are so like those they castigate!

U.K. economic dependence on their banking sector and military dependence on the US are big pulls away from Europe. And of course, the Euro has been a disaster for everyone except Germany. But EU ambition internationally means that the UK will want to keep a finger in that pie.

riposte
01-02-2016, 11:04 AM
Cameron s not trustworthyand will pin t out until he leaves office. Britain should leave the Eu and leave us in peace since British involvement in Europe has been entirely one sided . The idea European nationhood sits badly on the xenophobic British conscience because their origins are so like those they castigate!

Jayzus... WTF!! does that mean?

Shaadi
01-02-2016, 11:38 AM
Jayzus... WTF!! does that mean?I think it basically means that the Brits are warlike European imperialists in origin and aren't comfortable being ruled by the EU, because ruling other countries is in the British psyche. So they can't warm to not being in charge.

Richardbouvet
01-02-2016, 12:45 PM
I think that if the UK leaves, we should consider doing the same. It would represent a rare opportunity for us to escape from the EU cage.

Shaadi
01-02-2016, 01:07 PM
I think that if the UK leaves, we should consider doing the same. It would represent a rare opportunity for us to escape from the EU cage.

Or we could play both off each against each other and suit ourselves..

Let the UK off if that's what they want, they'll be quite keen to keep the Island to the West onside and as a consequence they won't be interested in pissing us off after a Brexit.

random new yorker
01-02-2016, 02:07 PM
I think it basically means that the Brits are warlike European imperialists in origin and aren't comfortable being ruled by the EU, because ruling other countries is in the British psyche. So they can't warm to not being in charge.

aye.. thank g-d someone translated that one for me :)

i agree w this assessment as well

i can only imagine the scurrying in Downing Street after they got the 'warning' from the US...

but the thing is that given their monarchic system in place they also can control the lower ranking barking dogs...

I believe Cameron will get it together (barking dog doesn't bite ~ old portuguese saying)

random new yorker
01-02-2016, 02:13 PM
I think that if the UK leaves, we should consider doing the same. It would represent a rare opportunity for us to escape from the EU cage.


pfftt ... gee .. that would be very bad for yous ...

resist, resist your isolationist instinct .. you'r too small to be out there on yr own...without the EU the UK takes over as it has always done

random new yorker
01-02-2016, 02:16 PM
Can we please add Brexit to the title of this thread?

I almost missed this discussion given the all encompassing title that doesnt mean much and certainly does not imply at all you are discussing British exit from the EU..

if Brexit does not strike your fancy how about adding to the title "Will the British Exit the EU?" or some such

riposte
01-02-2016, 04:18 PM
I think it basically means that the Brits are warlike European imperialists in origin and aren't comfortable being ruled by the EU, because ruling other countries is in the British psyche. So they can't warm to not being in charge.

I don't know if anyone can generalise about the "Brits" anymore........ over the 90 years since they partioned Ireland ........Britain has accumulated many millions of non-British people.. including millions of Irish.

riposte
01-02-2016, 04:25 PM
Can we please add Brexit to the title of this thread?

I almost missed this discussion given the all encompassing title that doesnt mean much and certainly does not imply at all you are discussing British exit from the EU..

if Brexit does not strike your fancy how about adding to the title "Will the British Exit the EU?" or some such


The reason why I put up this thread is because I am concerned to get members views on the effects of Britain leaving the EU.. on Ireland... I wouldn't be happy to have the title changed...... unless it is called .......
Brexit: Is David Cameron doing Ireland A Favour?

Shaadi
01-02-2016, 04:26 PM
I don't know if anyone can generalise about the "Brits" anymore........ over the 90 years since they partioned Ireland ........Britain has accumulated many millions of non-British people.. including millions of Irish.Indeed, and in the last 20 years the world has changed at breakneck pace.

But! The UK public are still every single day via their media and political system programmed into a pride in a British Nationalism where it's forever 1914-1918 or 1939-1945 and they're all pulling together for the sake of old blighty.

It's a very deliberate process designed to inculcate loyalty to the class based ruling system that is the norm there. So while the population's ethnic background has changed it's political programming has not.

riposte
01-02-2016, 05:02 PM
Indeed, and in the last 20 years the world has changed at breakneck pace.

But! The UK public are still every single day via their media and political system programmed into a pride in a British Nationalism where it's forever 1914-1918 or 1939-1945 and they're all pulling together for the sake of old blighty.

It's a very deliberate process designed to inculcate loyalty to the class based ruling system that is the norm there. So while the population's ethnic background has changed it's political programming has not.

Shaadi... the Irish Question is settled... as soon as we have a referendum (which is obligitary under the Good Friday Agreement) we will have a United Ireland. The Brits will pull out!

Unfortunately... the Germans will never pull out. We are their slaves for ever and ever and ever alas!!

Shaadi
01-02-2016, 08:01 PM
Shaadi... the Irish Question is settled... as soon as we have a referendum (which is obligitary under the Good Friday Agreement) we will have a United Ireland. The Brits will pull out!

Unfortunately... the Germans will never pull out. We are their slaves for ever and ever and ever alas!!We are slaves to International Capital and supranational bodies and due to the ease with which these forces corrupt the body politic all democracy is now a sham.

I've voted against every single EU treaty and will continue to do so because I don't want ever closer Union.

The UK is our neighbour, it is not our friend it has got common interests and its interests are always Paramount in its dealings with us. The people in the UK are fine, the UK state is a scummy perfidious beast as Gadaffi found out.

The UK state has been engaged in a charm offensive towards the Irish people with the deep cooperation of the permanent Irish State which is another scummy untrustworthy outfit as we saw in all their negotiations re sovereignty.

Having had our Democracy and Sovereignty usurped by our own Vichy class many many times over the years with the cooperation of the Irish people we now are where we are. Life as part of the EU is more desirable than life as West Britain.

If the Brits do pull out then like Hoxha's Albania we will have a buffer between us and our modern day EUSSR masters. As of now we're not destitute and it's preferable to have a whole continent to escape to than to be stuck with going to an overcrowded neighbouring Island.

The North has become a Trojan Horse for the UKs plan to pull us back into its embrace and the British State is many many moves ahead of us in that particular chess game.

In short, let the Brits off and best of luck to them.. We'll see how they get on and suit ourselves, not that the powers that be have any intention of giving us a choice.

morticia
01-02-2016, 08:11 PM
Indeed, and in the last 20 years the world has changed at breakneck pace.

But! The UK public are still every single day via their media and political system programmed into a pride in a British Nationalism where it's forever 1914-1918 or 1939-1945 and they're all pulling together for the sake of old blighty.

It's a very deliberate process designed to inculcate loyalty to the class based ruling system that is the norm there. So while the population's ethnic background has changed it's political programming has not.

Sadly I have to second that; my 5+ years there convinced me that it's hopeless. Sun jingoistic propaganda and unquestioning worship of the Royals all the way.

It's more of a caste system than a class system. And if there was one thing above all that broke my little meritocratic heart, it was hearing some of the other half's older relatives (who had left school at 15) refusing to recognise any value in education.

Otherwise known as breaking the first two rungs in a ladder that could take you out of poverty. Good old inverse snobbery, ensuring that the lower social orders are enthusiastically keeping themselves firmly in their place
(Despairing sarcasm, just in case anyone mistakes me for an old Etonian)

Facepalm. Perhaps the Penal laws did us all a favour over here; making education less accessible to some has possibly made sure that we all value it more now, even 160+ years later.

I actually despair. Brexit is a policy, borne of jingoism, that will make the UK instantly worse off. I have every faith, however, that the blind national superiority complex will carry the day, and out they will go, regardless. We should all be praying for the success of the CBI and other bizness lobby groups (for once!).

I fear a Brexit leaves the EU field wide open to the lunatic EU fringe as well...Le Pen, Orban, Kaczynski, Wilders; AFD, the list goes on.

[emoji27][emoji33][emoji19][emoji37]

Count Bobulescu
01-02-2016, 08:13 PM
The reason why I put up this thread is because I am concerned to get members views on the effects of Britain leaving the EU.. on Ireland... I wouldn't be happy to have the title changed...... unless it is called .......
Brexit: Is David Cameron doing Ireland A Favour?

In light of those sentiments, it's probably best not to merge the threads, or we may likely end up with claims of people trying to derail one thread or the other.

Shaadi
01-02-2016, 08:35 PM
I fear a Brexit leaves the EU field wide open to the lunatic EU fringe as well...Le Pen, Orban, Kaczynski, Wilders; AFD, the list goes on.

[emoji27][emoji33][emoji19][emoji37]
Indeed, as I always say to rny, Fascism is a natural undercurrent in continental Europe and the further East you go the more acceptable it seems to be.

There's a kind of slippery slope developing to some sort of a bursting of the Socially Liberal EEC model of EU development towards a kind of ugly politics that's pretty impossible to describe as its form has yet to come into existence.

All of a sudden the Brits don't look so ugly.:)

random new yorker
01-02-2016, 09:40 PM
In light of those sentiments, it's probably best not to merge the threads, or we may likely end up with claims of people trying to derail one thread or the other.

:)

riposte
01-02-2016, 11:05 PM
i agree with you ... i dont think this thread needs my contribute at all

I can't see why not? ... Surely you must have views on whether Ireland is better in or out of the EU. Also Britain's exit is bound to have repercussions on Ireland ........ because of our common travel area.. and our massive trade exchanges. As one who looks in here you must be well informed on these matters.

random new yorker
01-02-2016, 11:11 PM
I can't see why not? ... Surely you must have views on whether Ireland is better in or out of the EU. Also Britain's exit is bound to have repercussions on Ireland ........ because of our common travel area.. and our massive trade exchanges. As one who looks in here you must be well informed on these matters.

oh dear... .why would i travel thru Ireland?

I dont want you guys to leave the Union (the EU) cos other reasons not cos i fly thru Ire..

too cold and windy and wet ...

riposte
01-02-2016, 11:22 PM
oh dear... .why would i travel thru Ireland?

I dont want you guys to leave the Union (the EU) cos other reasons not cos i fly thru Ire..

too cold and windy and wet ...

Well if you feel that strong ..... maybe you should campaign for New York to join the EU.

random new yorker
02-02-2016, 04:05 AM
It's more of a caste system than a class system. And if there was one thing above all that broke my little meritocratic heart, it was hearing some of the other half's older relatives (who had left school at 15) refusing to recognise any value in education.

Otherwise known as breaking the first two rungs in a ladder that could take you out of poverty. Good old inverse snobbery, ensuring that the lower social orders are enthusiastically keeping themselves firmly in their place

this is what i always say re the British system (it is not Class... Class distinctions ye have in the US and in Portugal or in France, in the UK ye have a 1000 year old inbred Caste system..)

gleeful idiots, they will defend their right to remain idiots, breed w idiots and raise idiots, with their lives!!

having said that

let me wake up tomorrow and smell the coffee and the news here after the Iowa caucus

morticia
02-02-2016, 07:27 AM
Indeed. Unfortunately, our electoral system is quite likely to return Michael Lowry to Dáil Éireann, and Mattie McGrath too, if we are really unlucky...

Everywhere has its idiots.....

Richardbouvet
02-02-2016, 10:37 AM
I am not afraid of the Brits. In fact, I am quite happy to risk being pulled into their orbit if it makes a united Ireland (even a partly britishised united Ireland) more likely.

Otherwise, we will be left to celebrate our revolutionary centenaries in a pemanently partitioned Ireland with what few token powers TTIP would leave us to exercise for ourselves.

I am still a federalist in the sense that I believe a democratic United Europe is the best long-term option. However, the present EU is a frankenstein and is not fit for any democratic purpose.

The main political choices within Europe seem to be between the far right and the neoliberal right. I am not willing to support either of those options.

riposte
02-02-2016, 01:14 PM
this is what i always say re the British system (it is not Class... Class distinctions ye have in the US and in Portugal or in France, in the UK ye have a 1000 year old inbred Caste system..)

gleeful idiots, they will defend their right to remain idiots, breed w idiots and raise idiots, with their lives!!

having said that

let me wake up tomorrow and smell the coffee and the news here after the Iowa caucus


Off Topic

riposte
02-02-2016, 01:14 PM
Indeed. Unfortunately, our electoral system is quite likely to return Michael Lowry to Dáil Éireann, and Mattie McGrath too, if we are really unlucky...

Everywhere has its idiots.....


Off Topic

Shaadi
02-02-2016, 02:44 PM
Seeing as we're talking about Ireland, I do believe that the UK leaving the EU would strongly ramp up support for a UI in NI.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34176881.ece/binary/Nationalists.jpg

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34176882.ece/binary/Others.jpg

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34176879.ece/binary/NIchart.jpg





http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34176880.ece/binary/Unionists.jpg


The demographic shifts mean the "nationalist" and the neutrals will very much be in the driving seat as regards NIs future.

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/debateni/bill-white/how-will-northern-ireland-vote-in-the-upcoming-eu-referendum-34176966.html

Richardbouvet
02-02-2016, 03:04 PM
I didn't realise that the North's republicans were so strongly pro-EU. This goes against what I would have thought.

riposte
02-02-2016, 03:40 PM
Seeing as we're talking about Ireland, I do believe that the UK leaving the EU would strongly ramp up support for a UI in NI.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34176881.ece/binary/Nationalists.jpg

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34176882.ece/binary/Others.jpg

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34176879.ece/binary/NIchart.jpg





http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34176880.ece/binary/Unionists.jpg


The demographic shifts mean the "nationalist" and the neutrals will very much be in the driving seat as regards NIs future.

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/debateni/bill-white/how-will-northern-ireland-vote-in-the-upcoming-eu-referendum-34176966.html

Yeah Shaadi........ that's why I'm so keen on it!

C. Flower
24-06-2016, 12:36 PM
Impacts on Ireland ?

Divisive, in the North but overall a push to unification ? Particularly if Scotland left the UK ?

jmcc
24-06-2016, 12:52 PM
Impacts on Ireland ?

Divisive, in the North but overall a push to unification ? Particularly if Scotland left the UK ?
Independent Scotland. Major renegotiations in Brussels with the possible collapse and fragmentation of Belgium. Holland, France and probably Denmark have exit referenda. Poland and Eastern European economies tank. Interesting times. Eventual Irish federal or confederal unity.

Regards...jmcc

Shaadi
24-06-2016, 02:20 PM
Impacts on Ireland ?

Divisive, in the North but overall a push to unification ? Particularly if Scotland left the UK ?

A UI? The so called "nationalists" seem anything but up for a UI. This may be the rocket up the arse that shakes them out of their complacency or confirms that they are actually Unionists.

C. Flower
24-06-2016, 06:45 PM
A UI? The so called "nationalists" seem anything but up for a UI. This may be the rocket up the arse that shakes them out of their complacency or confirms that they are actually Unionists.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Shaadi
25-06-2016, 07:53 AM
Many Northern Irish Reddit users have expressed their desire for a united Ireland on the popular website Reddit after Britain voted to leave the EU.

One post proposing the unification of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland has received over 4000 upvotes and counting.

Although the post was likely meant as a joke, many Northern Irish commenters have expressed their desire for a real United Ireland along with Scotland.



http://www.donegalnow.com/news/northern-irish-reddit-users-express-desire-for-united-ireland-after-brexit/100339

A bit of a joke but you'd never know, ATM minds are quite fraught and that's likely to continue until a post Brexit situation becomes the norm.

The impossible could become quite probable if this Brexit goes disastrously wrong.

random new yorker
25-06-2016, 03:49 PM
looks like we may have some more interesting conversations in this thread :)