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C. Flower
22-12-2012, 02:42 PM
Tommy Brougham this morning on RTE Radio clearly gave credence to the idea of a new "true Labour" party, made up of leftwing people from Labour, Sinn Feil and Fianna Fail, along with left Independents.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=302065&posted=1#post302065

The ideological basis for the party would appear to be "old Labour" i.e. in favour of trying to rescue capitalism in Ireland, but with far more egalitarian budgets than those being made by the Fine Gael / Labour Government.

The two questions that come to mind on this are

1. Would such a party gain traction and win seats in a General Election ?

2. Given the certainty that Ireland is not turning the corner, and that there will be further agonising economic contraction, would they not end up imposing more IMF budgets, if they got into Government ?

Saoirse go Deo
22-12-2012, 03:04 PM
Why would anyone from Sinn Féin want to join this party?

simonj
22-12-2012, 03:05 PM
Perhaps the Labour Party should simply be re-formed and re-focused under new leadership.
It's probably their only hope, certainly for the marginals like Galway West.

Younger TD's and Senators in labour who don't have DL roots really do need to look to the future, with the Gilmore/FG mill-stone the next election will be apocolyptic for Labour.
The fact that Gilmore's wife is in a publically appointed job at 98K per annum - whether or not that is based on merit - with cuts to the lowest and most vulnerable in society - simply looks like he has a Marie Antoinette complex, he has utterly lost touch.

As I said in a previous post I recon Gilmore is hanging on about 55/45%.
Gilmore has lost over 10% of his Dail deputies already and a Senator!!

With demographics taken into account - take in about 5% unsure/undecided and you are looking at a 50/50 split.
The polls are not good. In October the polls had finally stabilised, at 12%, that is bedrock support.

Sinn Fein are picking up disaffected left leaning voters. The harder the cuts get, the more they will gain.

There is an increased flow of dissent which will become harder to staunch, particularly when the next generation start to follow Keaveney and Heffernan.

FG and FF voters dont really change. If FF voters do change the swing is going to be to FF genetic independents (Healy Raes) or SF, and some Greens might make a comeback at local level.

SF are on the ascendancy - so I don't see them or any of their deputies going over to a new labour party.
Independents are either the real deal or modified FF/FG (Lowry)

C. Flower
22-12-2012, 03:07 PM
Why would anyone from Sinn Féin want to join this party?

Tommy Brougham did not go in to the whys.

simonj
22-12-2012, 03:30 PM
SF deputies at this point in time don't have a need to amalgamate with any-one else, and I don't see any desire from within their ranks to do so.
SF and Labour are, after all, the two constants in Irish politics since 1916.

A 90 year old treaty defines FF and FG, The other differences are very minor.

The only real defining difference in Irish politics today is pro or anti bank bailout.

There needs to be a party who can re-negotiate the bizzare and unsustainable arrangements made by or aquiesed to by FF/FG/Lab

Shaadi
22-12-2012, 03:37 PM
Tommy Brougham this morning on RTE Radio clearly gave credence to the idea of a new "true Labour" party, made up of leftwing people from Labour, Sinn Feil and Fianna Fail, along with left Independents.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=302065&posted=1#post302065

The ideological basis for the party would appear to be "old Labour" i.e. in favour of trying to rescue capitalism in Ireland, but with far more egalitarian budgets than those being made by the Fine Gael / Labour Government.

The two questions that come to mind on this are

1. Would such a party gain traction and win seats in a General Election ?

2. Given the certainty that Ireland is not turning the corner, and that there will be further agonising economic contraction, would they not end up imposing more IMF budgets, if they got into Government ?A true Labour party that split from the current one would more than hold its own. As in any TD or MEP:) that jumped would stand a better chance of retaining their seat in the new entity than the current one. As for attracting votes from FF/SF/Inds, bucket loads of transfers would be available to them that won't be available to FG/Lab at the next GE. Potential for taking FF first preferences would be limited, SFs new found vote would be dented and Inds not so much unless enough of them climbed on board. The new party would send the current one to single digit seat numbers at the next GE.

The real potential would be for cooperation between true Labour 10+ seats, FF 37, SF 31 and a few Inds to form the next Govt. The polling numbers are already there to make it a reality and likely to stay growing. The successful formation of such a party would leave the current Govt with 33% max at the next GE.

Most of the Trioka's dirty work will have been done by then, the choice will then be about the distribution of meagre resources and the sale of state assets. I'd rather have the True Labour/SF/FF coalition running the show then than FG/FF.

Mick Tully
22-12-2012, 03:55 PM
The LP should go the way of the greens, the party has been destroyed from within. The name should vanish from sight with the people that destroyed it. It should have gone in the seventies, after the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, it should have gone with what spring done to it in the 80's. It should have gone in the nineties with Lowry. I think now the men have the hammers to drive the final nails in the coffin for good.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
22-12-2012, 03:59 PM
The cow lifts its tail and makes a deposit. Couple of minutes later the cow moves another few yards and does the same again, Two different piles are lying in the grass some yards apart, And the four green fields are still full of ****.

Representational democracy in Ireland is great. Five million flies can't be wrong.

fluffybiscuits
22-12-2012, 05:09 PM
Tommy Brougham this morning on RTE Radio clearly gave credence to the idea of a new "true Labour" party, made up of leftwing people from Labour, Sinn Feil and Fianna Fail, along with left Independents.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=302065&posted=1#post302065

The ideological basis for the party would appear to be "old Labour" i.e. in favour of trying to rescue capitalism in Ireland, but with far more egalitarian budgets than those being made by the Fine Gael / Labour Government.

The two questions that come to mind on this are

1. Would such a party gain traction and win seats in a General Election ?

2. Given the certainty that Ireland is not turning the corner, and that there will be further agonising economic contraction, would they not end up imposing more IMF budgets, if they got into Government ?


FF are idealogiclly at odds with Labour. Older FF voters would certainly not vote for such a party and some Labour voters may see FF as being the traitors that they are and completely oppose such a move. Sinn Fein are still hell bent on solving the national question and such a new party as "New Labour" would not focus on the national question as it would be seen as being an issue that would prove divisive. All of it seems poorly thought out and the nitty gritty really needs to be worked out. If we have a new party is it going to go up against a Ronan Mullen inspired religious right wing party? We do not want a FF coalition of any sorts, I would be more looking to a SF/ULA/New Lab as a better consensus. A strong left would work to the interests of the people, FF would stll be pandering to the people who inhabit their tent at the Galway races. Simonj has explained it spot on, there has been two consistents , Labour and SF on the left in recent years, we need to build on the left consensus .

MediaBite
22-12-2012, 05:19 PM
Having witnessed the vicious neo liberalism of the UK's 'New Labour' party under the mass murderer and traitor Tony Blair, I'd strongly urge any new party never, ever to even begin to think of branding itself 'New Labour'. In fact, the term 'Labour' needs to be avoided completely because of the corrupted meaning it now has, courtesy of Burton, Gilmore, Rabbitte etc.

C. Flower
22-12-2012, 05:39 PM
The cow lifts its tail and makes a deposit. Couple of minutes later the cow moves another few yards and does the same again, Two different piles are lying in the grass some yards apart, And the four green fields are still full of ****.

Representational democracy in Ireland is great. Five million flies can't be wrong.

:(

Andrew49
22-12-2012, 05:40 PM
We need a movement based on social progress - I don't see the Labour Party being a part of it. Anytime they've held the reins of power they added to the inequality in society.

C. Flower
22-12-2012, 05:47 PM
We need a movement based on social progress - I don't see the Labour Party being a part of it. Anytime they've held the reins of power they added to the inequality in society.

So do you think anyone leaving the Labour Party and forming a new party would just do the same all over again ?

fluffybiscuits
22-12-2012, 06:21 PM
So do you think anyone leaving the Labour Party and forming a new party would just do the same all over again ?

Well new labour made up of old Labour...

simonj
24-12-2012, 09:49 AM
Whereas there is no discernible difference between FF and FG other that historic tribal allegiance springing from 1916 the Labour party was meant to be different.

Under Quinn (1997-2002) Rabbitte (2002-2007) and now Gilmore (2007-c.2013) - and even before - Labour has simply become a tool for the bigger parties to form a Government.
Thomas Johnson was the last Labour leader of the Opposition - 1922/27.

Currently the three major parties all have signed up to and follow the same questionable line that Lenihan and Cowen dubiously agreed with the guarantee, the bail-out and the austerity budgets.

We need to look at any new party in Ireland not in terms of pro and anti treaty, or the Left/Right paradigm. It is now pre and post austerity, or pro and anti bailout.

The only people that seem to understand this are some notable independents. The current path we are being led down is economic lunacy.

A financier - M A Rothschild - once said
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws"
But we are where we are, we are unable to control inflation or deflation, or value of currency.

The foundations of the Celtic Tiger were pre-Euro, when the punt was free floating, not tied to Sterling or the Deutschmark.
That is the simple fact of the matter.

We have become a vassal state, a colony with a non-state colonist, to the extent that laws are being passed that will allow property tax assessors to:
Enter your home without warrant or permission
Deduct monies direct from your accounts without consent.

Water will be taxed or privatized and metered for profit.
Already state assets are being disposed of, for a short term fix.

A few years after Rothschild died, Napoleon Bonaparte - in 1815 - made a very apt comment that applies to us today
"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes…
Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain"

The only real question that currently exists is if a new party will come in to serve the people and state of Ireland, or the interests of an undemocratic super-national entity or vulture capital investors.
It really is that simple.

What is needed is:
1) A multilateral renegotiation of the current bailout and austerity program.

There are no easy solutions, there will still need to be cuts and reductions, that much is readily apparent. But the depth, extent and severity as well as the burden sharing are areas that can be addressed.
That will include Civil service cutbacks, pay reductions and a performance related approach. That would apply to the pensions and benefits also of current and past politicians.

2) Either
a) Withdrawal from the Euro and ECB control or
b) An EU supported credit system to kick-start enterprise and investment

3) A fully supported, performance related SME support program with preference given manufacturers

4) A unilateral investigation and re-appraisal of deals done with natural resources -e.g. Shell and Coillte.

5) A reworking of the electoral system, what we have is an early 20th century system based on a 19th century one. We need to be able to elect people on a national level as opposed to local issues.

Finally, every step forward we have taken as a nation state has needed vision and progress programs. We need vision, and we need new dealesque programs.
The (to be privatized) ESB, Telecommunications (disastrously privatized) and Sugar factories (stupidly disposed of) programs allowed us to make great leaps forward.

Personally, I think in the mold of the ESB Spirit of Ireland tied in with a Green energy manufacturing base would be a massive boost to the economy.
As would re-development of the sugar industry, but with the emphasis on ethanol production.

C. Flower
24-12-2012, 10:37 AM
Having witnessed the vicious neo liberalism of the UK's 'New Labour' party under the mass murderer and traitor Tony Blair, I'd strongly urge any new party never, ever to even begin to think of branding itself 'New Labour'. In fact, the term 'Labour' needs to be avoided completely because of the corrupted meaning it now has, courtesy of Burton, Gilmore, Rabbitte etc.

:) "True Labour" is more suitable perhaps, but somehow hilarious :)

Greengoddess
24-12-2012, 11:58 AM
:) "True Labour" is more suitable perhaps, but somehow hilarious :)

" Cool Hibernia" ? To say things can only get better is not only an understatement but also possibly untrue. :(
Who would form this New Labour anyway? It is too soon to give up working on the inside. Many of these people have been in the Party since their early teens . We ARE having an effect on policy too. I notice that pressure is being brought to bear on wealth tax and the FTT by members of the PLP. There would be no acknowledgement of this of course, which doesn't matter. It is important for the members to know it though. I was a little taken aback to hear Gilmore saying that he didn't " respect " those outside the PLP making contributions. That was a few weeks ago but the same tone still exists in recent days. This time towards the party chair!

Richardbouvet
24-12-2012, 12:16 PM
I think a new party will only be formed if the dissident TDs are made to leave the Labour party. If Gilmore gives in to his stalinist instincts and drives the dissidents out then that will happen.

Otherwise, it will only happen if Labour renege on even more election promises than they already have done, and even then, only if a Labour conference sided with Gilmore, which is far from guaranteed. Also, a new party would attract about half the current active membership, another fact which Gilmore must have thought of.

I am slighly out of touch at the moment as I am spending Xmas with my sister in England, but my prediction for what it is worth is: not just yet.

Anyway, a happy Christmas from Blighty (the mainland/mother country etc.) to all PWers.

DCon
24-12-2012, 12:18 PM
:) "True Labour" is more suitable perhaps, but somehow hilarious :)

Labour 2.0

Baron von Biffo
24-12-2012, 12:22 PM
Labour 2.0

... Ireland 0.0

Greengoddess
24-12-2012, 12:22 PM
Sdp?

Baron von Biffo
24-12-2012, 12:57 PM
The notion that the Lab dissidents could form the nucleus of a new party ignores the fact that their dissent is based, not on principle but electoral and personal considerations.

Penrose Chip on the shoulder because he didn't get a full ministry. Resigned over the issue of closure of the local army barracks which would have cost him electoral support had he remained in office.

Nulty Cynically used Lab hacks to get him elected only to discover that he was the last person in Ireland to see what the government was doing. Resigned to save his seat.

Broughan Serial flouncer and parish pump merchant. Always a bit of a malcontent.

Shortall Like Penrose her nose was out of joint because she didn't get a ministry. Flounced after failing as a junior minister.

Keavney Publicity whore in a very shaky seat. Clinging to the party chair to maximise media exposure.

Heffernan Serial electoral reject who will vanish from politics at the next GE.

A party founded by that lot would have as its banner:-

Narcissists of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your seat.

MediaBite
24-12-2012, 01:36 PM
" Cool Hibernia" ? To say things can only get better is not only an understatement but also possibly untrue. :(
Who would form this New Labour anyway? It is too soon to give up working on the inside. Many of these people have been in the Party since their early teens . We ARE having an effect on policy too. I notice that pressure is being brought to bear on wealth tax and the FTT by members of the PLP. There would be no acknowledgement of this of course, which doesn't matter. It is important for the members to know it though. I was a little taken aback to hear Gilmore saying that he didn't " respect " those outside the PLP making contributions. That was a few weeks ago but the same tone still exists in recent days. This time towards the party chair!


I wish, wish, wish people would finally confront the folly of believing change is possible 'from the inside' of any political movement. So long as you believe in that they have got you right where they want you - privately holding out promises of better things to come but never, ever delivering on them. Cut now! So what if the new party begins with just half of the membership - that'd be a fantastic starting point. Don't waste any more time.

disability student
24-12-2012, 01:40 PM
I wish, wish, wish people would finally confront the folly of believing change is possible 'from the inside' of any political movement. So long as you believe in that they have got you right where they want you - privately holding out promises of better things to come but never, ever delivering on them. Cut now! So what if the new party begins with just half of the membership - that'd be a fantastic starting point. Don't waste any more time.

Thes political parties we have learned to our cost since last GE never have in their minds re promises and will never deliver their promises or election manifesto even a plausible ones.

Promises are far too easily broken than a legal binding contract.

The time is ripe to set up a new political party as there are a huge amount of discontent towards the establishment parties namely FG/FF/LAB.

It's time for GG to go for broke and see what is there for taking.

fluffybiscuits
24-12-2012, 07:24 PM
Thes political parties we have learned to our cost since last GE never have in their minds re promises and will never deliver their promises or election manifesto even a plausible ones.

Promises are far too easily broken than a legal binding contract.

The time is ripe to set up a new political party as there are a huge amount of discontent towards the establishment parties namely FG/FF/LAB.

It's time for GG to go for broke and see what is there for taking.

Is there room there for another party on the left though. We have ULA, SF, Lab (leftish) and then a new left Labour party. Would it not be easier to align themselves with an ever present party and build from there. A new party surely would split the vote?

Ceannaire
27-12-2012, 03:46 PM
Splitting the vote isn't a serious problem in a country that uses PR as a voting system the way it would be in Britain.

An interesting question is where the bourgeois social liberal vote will go if the Labour party goes into terminal decline. Hardly to FG, which is more conservative than it has ever been in recent years on social issues, nor to FF or SF, and whilst the ULA are progressive on social issues, their economic policies won't get them many votes amongst the well-heeled social liberals who have traditionally given a lifeline to Labour. The Labour leadership knows this, and I suspect that this is why it has been relatively hardline on issues like Church/State relations, legislation on X, divestment of church role in schools, etc. Much as FF in its dying days in office knew the "grey vote" would throw them a lifeline at the next general election, the Labour leadership hopes social liberals will save the party from annihilation


The notion that the Lab dissidents could form the nucleus of a new party ignores the fact that their dissent is based, not on principle but electoral and personal considerations.

Penrose Chip on the shoulder because he didn't get a full ministry. Resigned over the issue of closure of the local army barracks which would have cost him electoral support had he remained in office.

Nulty Cynically used Lab hacks to get him elected only to discover that he was the last person in Ireland to see what the government was doing. Resigned to save his seat.

Broughan Serial flouncer and parish pump merchant. Always a bit of a malcontent.

Shortall Like Penrose her nose was out of joint because she didn't get a ministry. Flounced after failing as a junior minister.

Keavney Publicity whore in a very shaky seat. Clinging to the party chair to maximise media exposure.

Heffernan Serial electoral reject who will vanish from politics at the next GE.

A party founded by that lot would have as its banner:-

Narcissists of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your seat.


Remember that it’s not just the ex-parliamentary party who are disaffected. There’s a grassroots movement of Labour members, the Campaign for Labour Policies, which has been set up to oppose the austerity policies of the government. At the last Party Conference, the leadership was defeated, albeit narrowly, on a motion opposing the sale of semi-state assets. If a significant number of grassroots Labour members were to leave, a new party could achieve critical mass the way the PDs never did.

Greengoddess
27-12-2012, 04:16 PM
What ever about "new labour", that group of members will grow . Either that or they will leave. Which would be very worrying.

fluffybiscuits
27-12-2012, 05:43 PM
Splitting the vote isn't a serious problem in a country that uses PR as a voting system the way it would be in Britain.

An interesting question is where the bourgeois social liberal vote will go if the Labour party goes into terminal decline. Hardly to FG, which is more conservative than it has ever been in recent years on social issues, nor to FF or SF, and whilst the ULA are progressive on social issues, their economic policies won't get them many votes amongst the well-heeled social liberals who have traditionally given a lifeline to Labour. The Labour leadership knows this, and I suspect that this is why it has been relatively hardline on issues like Church/State relations, legislation on X, divestment of church role in schools, etc. Much as FF in its dying days in office knew the "grey vote" would throw them a lifeline at the next general election, the Labour leadership hopes social liberals will save the party from annihilation




Remember that it’s not just the ex-parliamentary party who are disaffected. There’s a grassroots movement of Labour members, the Campaign for Labour Policies, which has been set up to oppose the austerity policies of the government. At the last Party Conference, the leadership was defeated, albeit narrowly, on a motion opposing the sale of semi-state assets. If a significant number of grassroots Labour members were to leave, a new party could achieve critical mass the way the PDs never did.

Completely agree with what you wrote here and a lot of food for thought. None of the alternative parties would appeal to the average Labour voter with perhaps some of the younger members perhaps going to the ULA but aside from that a lot of the older voters will feel somewhat alienated as there is no one there to represent them. New Labour would take up the Labour vote in a major way, old Labour would be out the door. In terms of semantics however they may be better giving themselves a new name than using anything Labour related. Are they going to run against the new right wing party we are hearing about?

Greengoddess
27-12-2012, 05:54 PM
The ISDP!

Shaadi
27-12-2012, 09:22 PM
The ISDP!People are attaching too much importance to the Labour Party Social Democratic vote as if it was a noble beast capable of enticing FG's Social Democratic wing away from FG. Those FG social Democrats are FG to the core, a pseudo-liberal tradition going back to the days of the IPP.

What labour have is a core vote of approximately 10% which is split between the cynical "blow you I'm all right Jack " brigade and the CLP types. The gap between them would appear to be unbridgable, papered over perhaps by removing Gilmore as leader. That still leaves the centre-right class ridden callousness off Howlin, Burton and Quinn etc.

The CLP faction needs to break away completely if it wants to become
a force for social equality because the Labour party as currently constructed is only interested in maintaing chattering class economic privilege.

C. Flower
27-12-2012, 09:33 PM
Splitting the vote isn't a serious problem in a country that uses PR as a voting system the way it would be in Britain.

An interesting question is where the bourgeois social liberal vote will go if the Labour party goes into terminal decline. Hardly to FG, which is more conservative than it has ever been in recent years on social issues, nor to FF or SF, and whilst the ULA are progressive on social issues, their economic policies won't get them many votes amongst the well-heeled social liberals who have traditionally given a lifeline to Labour. The Labour leadership knows this, and I suspect that this is why it has been relatively hardline on issues like Church/State relations, legislation on X, divestment of church role in schools, etc. Much as FF in its dying days in office knew the "grey vote" would throw them a lifeline at the next general election, the Labour leadership hopes social liberals will save the party from annihilation

Remember that it’s not just the ex-parliamentary party who are disaffected. There’s a grassroots movement of Labour members, the Campaign for Labour Policies, which has been set up to oppose the austerity policies of the government. At the last Party Conference, the leadership was defeated, albeit narrowly, on a motion opposing the sale of semi-state assets. If a significant number of grassroots Labour members were to leave, a new party could achieve critical mass the way the PDs never did.

I think the socially progressive vote is not like that. I think many of the people who protested the death of Savita Hallapanavar outside the Dail were young people who have no attachment to FG.

FG is a firmly right wing party, the political descendant of the blueshirts.

The constituency for a new party of the centre left are disaffected people of FF, Labour, and the Greens, and previously unafilliated people.

Fine Gael is so right wing that it is not leaving much room for the Ganleyite far right.

Greengoddess
27-12-2012, 09:59 PM
People are attaching too much importance to the Labour Party Social Democratic vote as if it was a noble beast capable of enticing FG's Social Democratic wing away from FG. Those FG social Democrats are FG to the core, a pseudo-liberal tradition going back to the days of the IPP.

What labour have is a core vote of approximately 10% which is split between the cynical "blow you I'm all right Jack " brigade and the CLP types. The gap between them would appear to be unbridgable, papered over perhaps by removing Gilmore as leader. That still leaves the centre-right class ridden callousness off Howlin, Burton and Quinn etc.

The CLP faction needs to break away completely if it wants to become
a force for social equality because the Labour party as currently constructed is only interested in maintaing chattering class economic privilege.

Ok, I give up! Probably correct analysis . I wonder is the hope for a noble beast is simply an assumption by advisors that this is the only group that actually vote. We have been told by red c we should give up on any of the demographic SF has. A thought that is very depressing and possibly due to some kind of vested interests . What those are I'm not sure.

Shaadi
27-12-2012, 10:51 PM
Ok, I give up! Probably correct analysis . I wonder is the hope for a noble beast is simply an assumption by advisors that this is the only group that actually vote. We have been told by red c we should give up on any of the demographic SF has. A thought that is very depressing and possibly due to some kind of vested interests . What those are I'm not sure.Those vested interests are the beards, the Quangos/Top Civil Servants and the Semi-States.

You're doing okay GG, keep your options open. I'll have a preference waiting for you to help push you over the line.;)

Greengoddess
27-12-2012, 11:25 PM
Those vested interests are the beards, the Quangos/Top Civil Servants and the Semi-States.

You're doing okay GG, keep your options open. I'll have a preference waiting for you to help push you over the line.;)
The line being the abyss!

Shaadi
27-12-2012, 11:39 PM
The line being the abyss!:D

Dr. FIVE
23-02-2013, 02:50 PM
After a meeting with the ceann comhairle this week, four TDs who gave up Labour’s whip in anger at the direction the party has taken under Mr Gilmore expect more speaking time to oppose Government policy.

At present, the party whips divide up speaking time, but the rebel Labour TDs now expect to be treated as a quasi-bloc within the Dáil and be granted more of a presence by the ceann comhairle.

In presenting their cause to the ceann comhairle, the precedent of the Democratic Left in the 1990s was used.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rebellious-labour-tds-form-dail-group-223539.html#.USjRh5UYSD0.twitter

Cato
23-02-2013, 02:54 PM
The use of the DL precedent was a nice touch.

Dr. FIVE
23-02-2013, 02:55 PM
indeed

Baron von Biffo
23-02-2013, 03:29 PM
Where's Penrose?

Cato
23-02-2013, 03:30 PM
Where's Penrose?

Floating gently back to the PLP. (He never really left.)

Baron von Biffo
23-02-2013, 04:10 PM
Floating gently back to the PLP. (He never really left.)

You shock me!

Cato
23-02-2013, 04:57 PM
You shock me!

I know - awful, isn't it, promoting cynicism in politics.

C. Flower
23-02-2013, 07:49 PM
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rebellious-labour-tds-form-dail-group-223539.html#.USjRh5UYSD0.twitter

Is there any way these TDs would be tempted to sit down with the Left Independents / PBP ?

Dr. FIVE
23-02-2013, 07:51 PM
not a hope I would think

C. Flower
23-02-2013, 07:53 PM
not a hope I would think

What hope that the Workers Party guys would go into Government with Fine Gael ?

It's a slippery slope.

Dr. FIVE
23-02-2013, 08:09 PM
I think they (and to differing degrees) would be quite happy with some sort of reclaim of Labour - however cosmetic - long long before any sort of building an outside alternative or flirtation with Higgins et al.

C. Flower
23-02-2013, 08:12 PM
I think they (and to differing degrees) would be quite happy with some sort of reclaim of Labour - however cosmetic - long long before any sort of building an outside alternative or flirtation with Higgins et al.

I wasn't thinking Higgins.

Greengoddess
23-02-2013, 08:20 PM
I wasn't thinking Higgins.

Clare?

C. Flower
23-02-2013, 08:29 PM
Clare?

Hard to know where she will end up. Joan, Catherine, Maureen ?

The temptation for unattached left TDs to form a bloc might be strong.

Ceannaire
23-02-2013, 09:22 PM
Hard to know where she will end up. Joan, Catherine, Maureen ?

The temptation for unattached left TDs to form a bloc might be strong.

I still doubt very much that a new party or anything similarly formal will take place. Broughan and Nulty are more ideologically hard-nosed, whereas Shortall and especially Keaveney would be less ideologically-driven. Keaveney is very ambitious and whilst his decision to vote against the government was brave and one I wholly endorse, the motivations were more oppprtunism than principled.

PaddyJoe
23-02-2013, 09:56 PM
Keaveny isn't very happy about the reception that Joan got in Dundalk yesterday.

Colm Keaveney T.D ‏@Colm_Keaveney
Proud of Labour Minister, Joan Burton for dignified composure under extreme political abuse from neanderthals.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/bMbo2Gwa6WY

RaggedTrousers
23-02-2013, 09:57 PM
I agree, I really can't see the seeds of a party there. Ideologically they are a very motley bunch, from the contrarian to the ruthlessly ambitious. What they lack is pragmatism.

Dr. FIVE
23-02-2013, 09:57 PM
You know what I mean. I just don't think there is any serious intent. All wedded to Labour

C. Flower
23-02-2013, 10:00 PM
I agree, I really can't see the seeds of a party there. Ideologically they are a very motley bunch, from the contrarian to the ruthlessly ambitious. What they lack is pragmatism.

Lol! Bound apart/together by obstinate individuality.

Greengoddess
23-02-2013, 10:05 PM
Actually, they are showing g a great deal of pragmatism in co operating! :D

Ceannaire
23-02-2013, 10:11 PM
Actually, they are showing g a great deal of pragmatism in co operating! :D

Or should that be "we"!

Greengoddess
26-02-2013, 09:06 AM
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gilmore-dismisses-real-labour-threat-223793.html

C. Flower
26-02-2013, 10:22 AM
A new grouping of Labour TDs - World By Storm's thoughts.

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/labours-new-shadow-somewhat-to-its-left/

WbS thinks this is very much a matter internal to the Labour Party.

There is no question in my mind that a principled left opposition would see candidates elected. A broad left pact, depending on geography, might do well.

Richardbouvet
26-02-2013, 12:14 PM
A lot now depends on what Gilmore will do. If he is clever, he will do nothing but make the odd jibe at them. If he is foolish, he will decide that the dissidents are a new party and must therefore be expelled.

For me, the big mystery in all this is the silence of most backbenchers. They appear to be stomaching FG policies without a fight. They must surely know their seats are gone if things go on like this. What are they thinking?

Shaadi
26-02-2013, 12:15 PM
A new grouping of Labour TDs - World By Storm's thoughts.

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/labours-new-shadow-somewhat-to-its-left/

WbS thinks this is very much a matter internal to the Labour Party.

There is no question in my mind that a principled left opposition would see candidates elected. A broad left pact, depending on geography, might do well.There's no question in my mind that a Real Labour party could do well in the next election, in fact if they took a few more senators and TDs aboard before then they'd probably end up with an equal amount of seats as Labour in the next Dáil. That's because despite the recent comaparitvely reasonable showing of Labour in the polls, they are still only likely to poll 10% in the next GE which would give them 16 or less seats and if 6 to 8 Real Labour TDs were part of that 16 then single digits await Labour.

This is not the intention of the Real Labour brigade, they want back in, but they want back in on their terms. Gilmore and his crew gone from the leadership and a bit of a Labour fightback in Govt would do them. Unfortunately for them, there's going to be an accelerated decline in public services that will really burst forth before the next GE and they'd be going back to a Labour party in worse standing with the public than when they left.

It's a conundrum for them, but they'll just plod along without splitting completely and make the best of things until they see how things pan out.

MediaBite
26-02-2013, 12:26 PM
Keaveny isn't very happy about the reception that Joan got in Dundalk yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/bMbo2Gwa6WY

Tells you everything you need to know about any 'new Labour' group Keaveney would be a part of. Those 'neanderthals' should be his core voters if he means a word of what he says!

Greengoddess
26-02-2013, 01:29 PM
A lot now depends on what Gilmore will do. If he is clever, he will do nothing but make the odd jibe at them. If he is foolish, he will decide that the dissidents are a new party and must therefore be expelled.

For me, the big mystery in all this is the silence of most backbenchers. They appear to be stomaching FG policies without a fight. They must surely know their seats are gone if things go on like this. What are they thinking?

They haven't been challenged. So far. It is also convenient that there is so much emphasis on the leadership.

Saoirse go Deo
26-02-2013, 01:45 PM
Its labours advantage to keep these people as a mudguard, makes re-branding after annihilation much easier, and the mudguards may even keep their seats.

disability student
26-02-2013, 03:21 PM
Gimme More doesn't give a fig about Labour party. All he wants to stay on leadership and get a gold plated lifetime pension (two years on any govt ministry).

Other poster said that there was never any leadership heave in the history of Labour party.

It's clear that Keaveney wants to go back to Labour as I don't think he will set up a new party.

Hope to see Labour reach lower figures as GP. once it goes below the threshold, it would be nigh impossible for Labour to recover.

Ceannaire
26-02-2013, 03:27 PM
Gimme More doesn't give a fig about Labour party. All he wants to stay on leadership and get a gold plated lifetime pension (two years on any govt ministry).
Other poster said that there was never any leadership heave in the history of Labour party.

It's clear that Keaveney wants to go back to Labour as I don't think he will set up a new party.

Hope to see Labour reach lower figures as GP. once it goes below the threshold, it would be nigh impossible for Labour to recover.

Well he's already destroyed two political parties he was in to further his own interests. Why shouldn't he do the same with the third?

disability student
26-02-2013, 03:32 PM
Well he's already destroyed two political parties he was in to further his own interests. Why shouldn't he do the same with the third?

He will do it no matter what as members -rank and file of Labour party do nothing which were unbelievable to watch. Do they have labour interests at heart?:eek:

Ceannaire
26-02-2013, 07:26 PM
He will do it no matter what as members -rank and file of Labour party do nothing which were unbelievable to watch. Do they have labour interests at heart?:eek:


Sorry, the syntax of your first sentence there was a bit mangled. If you're questioning the basis of what I said because you think it's implausible that party members will let him continue to allow the party haemorrage support, I would point out that whilst Labour members like the grassroots members of all parties do indeed have the party's best intersts at heart, the party members do not actually have the power to remove the leader. This can only be done at a time other than an election by the Central Council, and even they can't do so by a simple majority: they need a two-thirds majority.

C. Flower
26-02-2013, 07:33 PM
Sorry, the syntax of your first sentence there was a bit mangled. If you're questioning the basis of what I said because you think it's implausible that party members will let him continue to allow the party haemorrage support, I would point out that whilst Labour members like the grassroots members of all parties do indeed have the party's best intersts at heart, the party members do not actually have the power to remove the leader. This can only be done at a time other than an election by the Central Council, and even they can't do so by a simple majority: they need a two-thirds majority.

Heave-proof?

That is almost as bad as the SWP where they have to vote out the whole Central Committee to get rid of one.

Dr. FIVE
26-02-2013, 07:35 PM
Think WorldbyStorm is correct (http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/labours-new-shadow-somewhat-to-its-left/)


the equivalent of the Polish government in exile, awaiting the day when their homeland is liberated (though by who?

Ceannaire
26-02-2013, 07:47 PM
Heave-proof?

That is almost as bad as the SWP where they have to vote out the whole Central Committee to get rid of one.


Close enough. The leadership even manipulates theoretically democratic procedures even when they are there; witness the increasingly likely postponement of Labour Party conference till April 2014 in spite of the fact that one is to be held every year. Some clause allows them to do this if the Executive considers the circumstances to be exceptional, in this case, the threat of a bloodbath.

Greengoddess
26-02-2013, 10:15 PM
Close enough. The leadership even manipulates theoretically democratic procedures even when they are there; witness the increasingly likely postponement of Labour Party conference till April 2014 in spite of the fact that one is to be held every year. Some clause allows them to do this if the Executive considers the circumstances to be exceptional, in this case, the threat of a bloodbath.

Some of them consider members to be an irritant now.

eamo
26-02-2013, 10:21 PM
Some of them consider members to be an irritant now.

Some of them considered (Worker's Party) members to be an irritant then.

Dr. FIVE
26-02-2013, 10:33 PM
Howlin this week shafting the bottom rung of ps workers and defending privatisation of the state.


Anyone confining the problem to former WP needs to look again

disability student
26-02-2013, 11:57 PM
Sorry, the syntax of your first sentence there was a bit mangled. If you're questioning the basis of what I said because you think it's implausible that party members will let him continue to allow the party haemorrage support, I would point out that whilst Labour members like the grassroots members of all parties do indeed have the party's best intersts at heart, the party members do not actually have the power to remove the leader. This can only be done at a time other than an election by the Central Council, and even they can't do so by a simple majority: they need a two-thirds majority.

That's what i am saying there.

disability student
26-02-2013, 11:58 PM
Heave-proof?

That is almost as bad as the SWP where they have to vote out the whole Central Committee to get rid of one.

+100.:eek:

jmcc
27-02-2013, 12:13 AM
Sorry, the syntax of your first sentence there was a bit mangled. If you're questioning the basis of what I said because you think it's implausible that party members will let him continue to allow the party haemorrage support, I would point out that whilst Labour members like the grassroots members of all parties do indeed have the party's best intersts at heart, the party members do not actually have the power to remove the leader. This can only be done at a time other than an election by the Central Council, and even they can't do so by a simple majority: they need a two-thirds majority.Why doesn't the ordinary, decent Labour Party move away from the Stickies and their fellow pension tourists, set up a new party with its own TDs (defectors, initially)? It would destroy the husk of a party that Labour has become and it might even give the new party some credibility with the electorate.

Regards...jmcc

C. Flower
27-02-2013, 11:59 AM
Why doesn't the ordinary, decent Labour Party move away from the Stickies and their fellow pension tourists, set up a new party with its own TDs (defectors, initially)? It would destroy the husk of a party that Labour has become and it might even give the new party some credibility with the electorate.

Regards...jmcc

What will put pressure on the Labour Party is Croke Park II, III and IV.

Baron von Biffo
27-02-2013, 01:13 PM
What will put pressure on the Labour Party is Croke Park II, III and IV.

Unlikely. Lab never had any significant chunk of the PS vote so they haven't a lot to lose there. If anything, putting the boot into the national hate group will boost their support.

fluffybiscuits
27-02-2013, 04:07 PM
Gimme More doesn't give a fig about Labour party. All he wants to stay on leadership and get a gold plated lifetime pension (two years on any govt ministry).

Other poster said that there was never any leadership heave in the history of Labour party.

It's clear that Keaveney wants to go back to Labour as I don't think he will set up a new party.

Hope to see Labour reach lower figures as GP. once it goes below the threshold, it would be nigh impossible for Labour to recover.

Not sure I would agree with the point about Keavney. His fall out with the Labour leadership was quite public and he did cut his nose off to spite his face I would imagine in the eyes of some of the Labour faithful. Him and Shortall and some of the other Labourites unhappy at the leadership of Gimmermore should be looking at the disenfranchised youth if they want to develop a more long term strategy. Would love to see Labour crash on the rocks tho along with the Fine Gwael and their ilk :)

C. Flower
27-05-2014, 09:39 AM
Time to bump this interesting thread.

Replacing Gilmore with a clone is not going to help, nor will pretence that the issue for Labour is not personal, but is fundamental - left and right politics.

Richardbouvet
27-05-2014, 10:49 AM
This is a huge crossroads for Labour and a priceless opportunity for members to fix the party. Don't assume it will fail. It might not.

C. Flower
27-05-2014, 11:29 AM
This is a huge crossroads for Labour and a priceless opportunity for members to fix the party. Don't assume it will fail. It might not.

Whether a person thinks it is a success or not might depend on whether they are, or are not, a socialist.

Has any socialist declared, to run for the leadership, as yet ?

riposte
27-05-2014, 11:36 AM
This is a huge crossroads for Labour and a priceless opportunity for members to fix the party. Don't assume it will fail. It might not.

While the aims and objectives of the Labour Party have always been admirable and commendable ..... it has always been populated by members whose chief concern is personal advancement. In every generation the "smoked salmon socialists" within the party have risen to the top. It is not today or yesterday that the Labour Party has "talked the talk" but failed to "walk the walk." It is hard to understand why a party with such commendable ideals consistently attracts the most venal of politicians.

The entire existing parliamentary party of the Labour party has endorsed the crucifixion of the poor in this country ....... and for one reason only .... the hope of personal advancement , the perks of office and the anxiety to retain their salaries and "expenses."

C. Flower
27-05-2014, 12:01 PM
While the aims and objectives of the Labour Party have always been admirable and commendable ..... it has always been populated by members whose chief concern is personal advancement. In every generation the "smoked salmon socialists" within the party have risen to the top. It is not today or yesterday that the Labour Party has "talked the talk" but failed to "walk the walk." It is hard to understand why a party with such commendable ideals consistently attracts the most venal of politicians.

The entire existing parliamentary party of the Labour party has endorsed the crucifixion of the poor in this country ....... and for one reason only .... the hope of personal advancement , the perks of office and the anxiety to retain their salaries and "expenses."

A friend said to me that when people came canvassing him his one question was "are you prepared to die for your country." Quick exit down the garden path by all who came.

It is a long time since anyone in the Labour Party leadership looked like they would give up a four course meal for the sake of their supporters, never mind die for them.