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riposte
14-12-2012, 10:18 AM
Congrats GG ........ great interview on Pat Kenny this morning. :)

Link to interview:
http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10094071%3A133%3A14%2D12 %2D2012%3A

EMUII
14-12-2012, 10:25 AM
Congrats GG ........ great interview on Pat Kenny this morning. :)

Is GG in the Labour party ? I'm a newbie here....

riposte
14-12-2012, 10:38 AM
Yeah GG is a Labour MEP ... .. she openly called for Gilmore's head on a plate on Pat Kenny this morning.

EMUII
14-12-2012, 11:06 AM
Yeah GG is a Labour MEP ... .. she openly called for Gilmore's head on a plate on Pat Kenny this morning.

Ahhh. I see.

Great. I hope she and her colleagues that share her view can keep momentum up and see it through. Although, I'd say Gilmore and Co. will put up a considerable fight....

Congratulations Greengodess....

C. Flower
14-12-2012, 11:08 AM
Sorry I missed this. Well done.

Any chance of catching it on RTE Player?

C. Flower
14-12-2012, 11:13 AM
Should be obtainable here -

http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A-2%3A133%3A14-12-2012%3A

Another Labour Party stalwart took the lonely walk down the steps of Leinster House last night after voting against the controversial Social Welfare Bill. Colm Keavney , the party Chairman joins four other colleagues who had a crisis of conscience and lost the party whip since going into government 21 months ago.
Joining Pat was Labour Party MEP Nessa Childers; Labour Party TD, Aodhán Ó Ríordáin and journalist John Downing.

DCon
14-12-2012, 11:14 AM
Sorry I missed this. Well done.

Any chance of catching it on RTE Player?

not at the minute, but if you click on "latest show" on the below page you should get it tomorrow

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/

C. Flower
14-12-2012, 11:15 AM
Would much appreciate an update on what was said, if Greengoddess has time.

unspecific
14-12-2012, 11:30 AM
Would much appreciate an update on what was said, if Greengoddess has time.

Something along the lines of...?

"I'm very put out by my political party structurally and intrinsically being a shower of b*stards. It's rather an inconvenience. People wouldnt understand how difficult it is sharing a party with people who will cut respite care and introduce home taxes - I mean, could you imagine what a hardship being in the same party is?"

Apjp
14-12-2012, 12:33 PM
Something along the lines of...?

"I'm very put out by my political party structurally and intrinsically being a shower of b*stards. It's rather an inconvenience. People wouldnt understand how difficult it is sharing a party with people who will cut respite care and introduce home taxes - I mean, could you imagine what a hardship being in the same party is?"

That's a bit begrudging. She's one of a few people taking a stand against a Vichy govt. This should be applauded, even if she did have only her own political motivations in doing so(keeping her seat), as things like this drop by drop may well shorten the lifespan of the government. After the 2014 batterings they will face in the local, Labour will probably be forced to withdraw.

unspecific
14-12-2012, 12:49 PM
That's a bit begrudging. She's one of a few people taking a stand against a Vichy govt. This should be applauded, even if she did have only her own political motivations in doing so(keeping her seat), as things like this drop by drop may well shorten the lifespan of the government. After the 2014 batterings they will face in the local, Labour will probably be forced to withdraw.

I don't think the aim should be to swap Tweedle-Dum government back with Tweedle-Dee for the sake of it. SF-FF will be identical. The aim should be a better standard of elected reps, better quality of political organizations and that means scrutinizing the reasons behind actions - for common good or for self good.

That said I've been pleasantly surprised by Childers progressively finding a dissenting voice, organizing - I just hope she keeps on surprising me and doesn't fall short of what's required. In this case whats required is to immediately launch a public campaign/heave to clear the decks and take Labour out of coalition with rightwing parties and the IMF as soon as possible - for the right reasons. To get back to the roots of James Connolly.

If the heave doesn't succeed well it was absolutely the right thing to do and there'll be a lot of support for her(and the others she provides a lead to) to move on with building something better, something principled.

Mick Tully
14-12-2012, 01:14 PM
Something along the lines of...?

"I'm very put out by my political party structurally and intrinsically being a shower of b*stards. It's rather an inconvenience. People wouldnt understand how difficult it is sharing a party with people who will cut respite care and introduce home taxes - I mean, could you imagine what a hardship being in the same party is?"

Stand up and be counted, tear up your membership card, and post it to Gimmemore.

Shaadi
14-12-2012, 01:19 PM
Good for GG, I'll give a her a 2nd preference if she keeps it up and a first preference if she leaves them. :)

EMUII
14-12-2012, 01:39 PM
Good for GG, I'll give a her a 2nd preference if she keeps it up and a first preference if she leaves them. :)

I'll giver her my first preference if she challenges for the leadership. They really need to follow through with this if they genuinely want to rescue what's left (sorry) of Labour's values.... I've said before elsewhere that I intend to vote SF in the next locals/Euros and GE, having only ever voted for them once in my life. I voted FG/Labour in the last GE.

If Labour alter their course and remove those who are hellbent on destroying their core vote, I will vote for them again.

C. Flower
14-12-2012, 01:40 PM
I'll giver her my first preference if she challenges for the leadership. They really need to follow through with this if they genuinely want to rescue what's left (sorry) of Labour's values.... I've said before elsewhere that I intend to vote SF in the next locals/Euros and GE, having only ever voted for them once in my life. I voted FG/Labour in the last GE.

If Labour alter their course and remove those who are hellbent on destroying their core vote, I will vote for them again.

Leaving the Government is the litmus.

What difference does it make which Labour politician heads the party that is propping up Fine Gael in Government ?

EMUII
14-12-2012, 01:57 PM
Leaving the Government is the litmus.

What difference does it make which Labour politician heads the party that is propping up Fine Gael in Government ?

Good point.

I was alluding to them pulling out of Government when I said they need to follow it through. I think Gilmore is irreparably damaged now and even if he had an epiphany and announced Labour were pulling out of Government, his leadership cannot continue.

goatstoe
14-12-2012, 02:00 PM
Leaving the Government is the litmus.

What difference does it make which Labour politician heads the party that is propping up Fine Gael in Government ?

You'd imagine if Gilmore is ousted that Labour would then pull out of government. Any possible new leader will surely only be elected leader on that premise.

Gilmore is definitely under pressure, Nessa Childers openly questioning his leadership this morning. Gilmore has gone very quiet, leaving Rabbitte to do his talking for him for the moment.

C. Flower
14-12-2012, 02:05 PM
You'd imagine if Gilmore is ousted that Labour would then pull out of government. Any possible new leader will surely only be elected leader on that premise.

Gilmore is definitely under pressure, Nessa Childers openly questioning his leadership this morning. Gilmore has gone very quiet, leaving Rabbitte to do his talking for him for the moment.

As I haven't heard any contender, even Keaveney, say that Labour should leave FG, my imagination won't stretch that far yet.

EMUII
14-12-2012, 02:09 PM
As I haven't heard any contender, even Keaveney, say that Labour should leave FG, my imagination won't stretch that far yet.

I'd imagine there are a lot of Labour members, and members of the PP for that matter, sitting with their fingers in the wind to see which way it is blowing. They probably wouldn't show all their cards at once.... well, I wouldn't.

But I'm not a politician....

Greengoddess
14-12-2012, 02:13 PM
As I haven't heard any contender, even Keaveney, say that Labour should leave FG, my imagination won't stretch that far yet.
Childers also said that any alternative leader would also have serious questions put to them . By her at least. One of forty PLP members. That's what matters. This is no time for quasi -cathartic tribal acts.

C. Flower
14-12-2012, 02:20 PM
Childers also said that any alternative leader would also have serious questions put to them . By her at least. One of forty PLP members. That's what matters. This is no time for quasi -cathartic tribal acts.

Can I take that to mean a serious debate on whether or not to continue, with all candidates making their position on this clear?

As I'm not a politician, sometimes reading the runes is a struggle.

barrym
14-12-2012, 02:36 PM
Can I take that to mean a serious debate on whether or not to continue, with all candidates making their position on this clear?

As I'm not a politician, sometimes reading the runes is a struggle.

Yes and yes CF.

Having listened back I'm not that congratulatory; Stand up and be counted time for everyone who thinks Labour has a future? What's new about that?

Rabbitte trying to play the 'ye don't understand politics, it the art of the possible' tune. GG is asking the right questions but is anybody listening??

Michael Clifford later on plank's show said it right - Gilmore is head and shoulders above any other (potential) candidate for his job, he'll be there for the foreseeable future. Politically, a correct statement, logically it means that the present high ups in the party are insuring the gold plated pension, move on, nothing to see here.

disability student
14-12-2012, 06:31 PM
Good for GG, I'll give a her a 2nd preference if she keeps it up and a first preference if she leaves them. :)

I would give her my first preference if she leaves that turncoat Labour party. Hope that she keep up her good work.

Baron von Biffo
14-12-2012, 07:39 PM
You'd imagine if Gilmore is ousted that Labour would then pull out of government. Any possible new leader will surely only be elected leader on that premise.

Gilmore is definitely under pressure, Nessa Childers openly questioning his leadership this morning. Gilmore has gone very quiet, leaving Rabbitte to do his talking for him for the moment.

Only Burton and the Miniature spring to mind as successors at the moment and the question must be, would either of them want to commit career suicide by taking over before the inevitable GE rout?

Both of them were on the Lab negotiating team that settled for so little from FG in 2011. If they couldn't do it then what hope is there that they can do it now when Lab is very much weaker?

Nor is either of them over burdened with the sort of charisma that might turn things around. Burton is a shrill, paranoid misandrist and Howlin is a pompous runt. Not the sort of leaders to make a betrayed electorate reassess the party.

goatstoe
15-12-2012, 12:03 AM
Only Burton and the Miniature spring to mind as successors at the moment and the question must be, would either of them want to commit career suicide by taking over before the inevitable GE rout?

Both of them were on the Lab negotiating team that settled for so little from FG in 2011. If they couldn't do it then what hope is there that they can do it now when Lab is very much weaker?

Nor is either of them over burdened with the sort of charisma that might turn things around. Burton is a shrill, paranoid misandrist and Howlin is a pompous runt. Not the sort of leaders to make a betrayed electorate reassess the party.

Replacing Gilmore with either of those would be pointless - and if that's all there is available to replace him he might survive for now - though I reckon it's becoming more likely than ever that this government will not see out it's full term. Even if the current crisis in Labour blows over, Labour deputies will eventually surely pull the plug before a full term in an attempt to save some face and some seats.

Dr. FIVE
15-12-2012, 01:03 AM
Just listening to this now.

Kudos alone for setting the agenda despite Pat's efforts.

Most interesting that yourself and Patrick Nulty (on wealth tax) are the only to politicians to achieve that this year

DCon
15-12-2012, 01:09 AM
Replacing Gilmore with either of those would be pointless - and if that's all there is available to replace him he might survive for now - though I reckon it's becoming more likely than ever that this government will not see out it's full term. Even if the current crisis in Labour blows over, Labour deputies will eventually surely pull the plug before a full term in an attempt to save some face and some seats.

Full term is not required

The grey vote in Labour will be happy to pull the plug once their enhanced pension is in the bag. Just like the Greens were

PaddyJoe
15-12-2012, 01:26 AM
Just listening to this now.

Kudos alone for setting the agenda despite Pat's efforts.

Most interesting that yourself and Patrick Nulty (on wealth tax) are the only to politicians to achieve that this year

Good interview. "Chasing mice while the elephant is destroying the room" on debt sustainability.
"Loud rustlings in the undergrowth on the leadership"

Link here:
http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10094071%3A133%3A14%2D12 %2D2012%3A

Dr. FIVE
15-12-2012, 01:28 AM
The grey vote in Labour will be happy to pull the plug once their enhanced pension is in the bag. Just like the Greens were

four months

Baron von Biffo
15-12-2012, 11:18 AM
Full term is not required

The grey vote in Labour will be happy to pull the plug once their enhanced pension is in the bag. Just like the Greens were

What was it we calculated that as in another thread? Something like €30 a week after tax wasn't it?

It's easy to see how such huge sums would sway people all right.

Jolly Red Giant
15-12-2012, 12:34 PM
It was a wishy-washy interview of the worst sort -

No demand to withdraw from the government - merely re-negotiate the deal between FG and LP

No opposition to austerity - merely higher taxes instead of cuts

No call for a wealth tax

etc.

There is also a lot of nonsense about the Stickies destroying the LP - Gilmore and Rabbitte are no different than Spring and Quinn, Cluskey and O'Leary, Norton, O'Connell, Johnson or William O'Brien - all opportunists and all traitors to the working class.

Greengoddess
15-12-2012, 01:28 PM
It was a wishy-washy interview of the worst sort -

No demand to withdraw from the government - merely re-negotiate the deal between FG and LP

No opposition to austerity - merely higher taxes instead of cuts

No call for a wealth tax

etc.

There is also a lot of nonsense about the Stickies destroying the LP - Gilmore and Rabbitte are no different than Spring and Quinn, Cluskey and O'Leary, Norton, O'Connell, Johnson or William O'Brien - all opportunists and all traitors to the working class.
Childers brougham and nulty had a press conference about wealth tax in a submission to the budget.
This issue about leaving government is thorny. Can u please tell me what the likely alternative will be? FG and FF? That prospect should scare everyone . If some other prospect emerges things might be different. You can see Blue In tooth and claw on the European Parliament show on rte. Mitchell and myself....
However there is a possibility of a chaotic government fall leading to a disorderly default. As opposed to a diplomatic default. You should be scared of that too. Or do you actually want it?

Jolly Red Giant
15-12-2012, 01:54 PM
Childers brougham and nulty had a press conference about wealth tax in a submission to the budget.
Yet on PK all you talked about was changing the 'programme for government' to allow for tax increases instead of cuts. Increasing taxes instead of cuts will not solve the crisis.



This issue about leaving government is thorny.
No its not - you are either for austerity or you are not - and if you are against it then there is no 'thorny' issue - you stop implementing austerity or you leave.


Can u please tell me what the likely alternative will be? FG and FF? That prospect should scare everyone . If some other prospect emerges things might be different. You can see Blue In tooth and claw on the European Parliament show on rte. Mitchell and myself....
A FF/FG government would be no different to what we have now - austerity will be defeated on the streets, in workplaces and in communities - not in the Dail.


However there is a possibility of a chaotic government fall leading to a disorderly default. As opposed to a diplomatic default. You should be scared of that too. Or do you actually want it?
Yet - both the current agenda and your 'taxes instead of cuts' approach both have the same result - another bailout, more austerity, more misery for working class people and inevitable default. If you want to prevent a default then you have to bring down the entire austerity agenda both here and Europewide - and nowhere in Europe are the LPs doing anything other than imposing cuts on working class people.

Richardbouvet
15-12-2012, 02:09 PM
Giant, there is a good case for staying in this government, provided acceptable conditions can be met. I agree with GG that we should therefore try and renegotiate the Programme.

I would also say that if those renegotiations still did not produce something acceptable then yes, Labour should walk.

One of those conditions, in my view, has to be a higher rate of tax for those earning over 100k. Another is faster progress towards a universal health service, and another is an immediate colective bargaining law.

You may say that that is just reformist tinkering, but I would say that those measures are worth something.

homer
15-12-2012, 02:35 PM
Childers also said that any alternative leader would also have serious questions put to them . By her at least. One of forty PLP members. That's what matters. This is no time for quasi -cathartic tribal acts.

I am getting confused with all this Latin ( and Greek )

What are "quasi-cathartic tribal acts" when they are at home?

Are they the same as " acta non verba"?

C. Flower
15-12-2012, 02:37 PM
Giant, there is a good case for staying in this government, provided acceptable conditions can be met. I agree with GG that we should therefore try and renegotiate the Programme.

I would also say that if those renegotiations still did not produce something acceptable then yes, Labour should walk.

One of those conditions, in my view, has to be a higher rate of tax for those earning over 100k. Another is faster progress towards a universal health service, and another is an immediate colective bargaining law.

You may say that that is just reformist tinkering, but I would say that those measures are worth something.

Fine Gael's version of a "universal health service" would be privatisation and pork.

Baron von Biffo
15-12-2012, 02:37 PM
Giant, there is a good case for staying in this government, provided acceptable conditions can be met. I agree with GG that we should therefore try and renegotiate the Programme.

I would also say that if those renegotiations still did not produce something acceptable then yes, Labour should walk.

One of those conditions, in my view, has to be a higher rate of tax for those earning over 100k. Another is faster progress towards a universal health service, and another is an immediate colective bargaining law.

You may say that that is just reformist tinkering, but I would say that those measures are worth something.

The problem with re-negotiation Richard, is that Lab is in a very much weaker position now than it was post GE. It failed to get a good deal then so it has no hope at all of improving that now.

You asked in another thread why an anti-austerity march had so many people attacking Labour - Well the answer is simple. As far as Lab is concerned the game is over. You might as well be on rails because you have no way to change course at this stage. FF/SF and the Alphabet Soup all know this so they're fighting amongst each other for the seats that Lab will inevitably drop.

Richardbouvet
15-12-2012, 02:56 PM
Stroonger or weaker, there is nothing to stop us walking if we do not get an improvement. That choice stays with us.

Yes, we are now a bit like the man in the Ian McEwan novel who grabbed hold of a ballon cable in the hope of keeping it from leaving the ground. The balloon kept ascending with him still holding the rope, which meant if he let go, he dropped all the way. Well maybe Labour should drop all the way anyway. I would be quite ready to do it.

C. Flower
15-12-2012, 03:37 PM
Stroonger or weaker, there is nothing to stop us walking if we do not get an improvement. That choice stays with us.

Yes, we are now a bit like the man in the Ian McEwan novel who grabbed hold of a ballon cable in the hope of keeping it from leaving the ground. The balloon kept ascending with him still holding the rope, which meant if he let go, he dropped all the way. Well maybe Labour should drop all the way anyway. I would be quite ready to do it.

A good analogy, Richard. Although the Party leadership appears very happy with the direction in which the balloon is heading, and completely unaware of the certainty that it will burst.

I hope that you land on soft ground.

Baron von Biffo
15-12-2012, 03:38 PM
Stroonger or weaker, there is nothing to stop us walking if we do not get an improvement. That choice stays with us.

Yes, we are now a bit like the man in the Ian McEwan novel who grabbed hold of a ballon cable in the hope of keeping it from leaving the ground. The balloon kept ascending with him still holding the rope, which meant if he let go, he dropped all the way. Well maybe Labour should drop all the way anyway. I would be quite ready to do it.

The consequences of making that choice are probably unpalatable for many of your PP.

A lot of the new entrants in 2011 will never win a seat again after their performance in this Dail so they'll likely hang in there to the bitter end.

Ephilant
15-12-2012, 04:09 PM
A lot of the new entrants in 2011 will never win a seat again after their performance in this Dail so they'll likely hang in there to the bitter end.

Shouldn't such dismal performance anywhere, Dail or any house of parliament, be reason enough to never win a seat again?
And shouldn't such a performance be all the more reason for a change in attitude towards the functioning of a parliament by implementing accountability at all times rather than once every 4 years or so?
Shouldn't reneging on promises made in order to gain that seat by considered as fraud and dealt with as such?
We have the very same problems here, as I'm sure you all know. Why would the antics of politicians be tolerated if the same antics in the normal world would undoubtedly end up in court and ultimately jail time? Deceipt is deceipt, irrespective of who commits it or what for. the only difference is the magnitude of the deceipt.

C. Flower
15-12-2012, 04:12 PM
A FF/FG government would be no different to what we have now - austerity will be defeated on the streets, in workplaces and in communities - not in the Dail.


Yet - both the current agenda and your 'taxes instead of cuts' approach both have the same result - another bailout, more austerity, more misery for working class people and inevitable default. If you want to prevent a default then you have to bring down the entire austerity agenda both here and Europewide - and nowhere in Europe are the LPs doing anything other than imposing cuts on working class people.

Would you like to spell out clearly what would be involved and what steps you think would need to be taken to do that ?

Greengoddess
15-12-2012, 05:00 PM
I am getting confused with all this Latin ( and Greek )

What are "quasi-cathartic tribal acts" when they are at home?

Are they the same as " acta non verba"?
Basically what FF tried to do to save itself. . Remember the leadership heave in the dying days? Catharsis never works for very long at any level. Including at the ballot box. This is why, paradoxically , FF are being resurrected by the electorate. They want to get punish us and put almost anyone else back in. This will continue until, well I don't know really.

Shaadi
15-12-2012, 05:28 PM
Basically what FF tried to do to save itself. . Remember the leadership heave in the dying days? Catharsis never works for very long at any level. Including at the ballot box. This is why, paradoxically , FF are being resurrected by the electorate. They want to get punish us and put almost anyone else back in. This will continue until, well I don't know really.Hmm, apples and oranges. The electorate don't want to punish Labour, they simply have no faith in them and are abandoning them in disgust. They gave Labour a chance and had it thrown back in their faces. Labour unlike FF do not have the critical mass of a substantial core vote to fall back on and FF unlike Labour can mix it up with FG and SF.

There's a window of perhaps a year when Labour could pull the plug and retain up to 13% of the vote. Beyond that they're facing a meltdown when they get within sight of the local and European elections. Panic stations, people jumping ship and an all mighty kicking in the local and European elections, which will set SF and FF up very nicely for the GE and leave them looking at 20%+ each while Labour struggle to get over 10%.

The half-in half-out act of the dissidents without any product to show for it is likely to begin to wear thin with the public sooner than you think.

Baron von Biffo
15-12-2012, 05:33 PM
Shouldn't such dismal performance anywhere, Dail or any house of parliament, be reason enough to never win a seat again?

Certainly.


And shouldn't such a performance be all the more reason for a change in attitude towards the functioning of a parliament by implementing accountability at all times rather than once every 4 years or so?

I'm not sure what you're getting at there but if you're suggesting recall elections I would be very strongly opposed.


Shouldn't reneging on promises made in order to gain that seat by considered as fraud and dealt with as such?
We have the very same problems here, as I'm sure you all know. Why would the antics of politicians be tolerated if the same antics in the normal world would undoubtedly end up in court and ultimately jail time? Deceipt is deceipt, irrespective of who commits it or what for. the only difference is the magnitude of the deceipt.

Not every failure to deliver is down to fraud or deceit. As part of a coalition Lab couldn't have expected to achieve everything in its manifesto. The problem with the current government is that they don't seem to be getting anything at all of their policy implemented.

Ephilant
15-12-2012, 06:21 PM
I'm not sure what you're getting at there but if you're suggesting recall elections I would be very strongly opposed.


Let me explain by way of a real life example I have plenty of experience with. Amazon.
The various sellers on Amazon are monitored in a number of ways, one most people would be familiar with is "customer feedback" rating. There are a good few other criteria that Joe Soap is not aware off, like answering time to customer queries, non-delivery, stocking errors, etc. All the various criteria are compiled into a thing called "seller rating", expressed on the various pages by "stars".
What most people are not aware of is that if this rating falls below a certain percentage (85% if I'm not mistaken) the seller in question gets suspended. Reinstatement can happen, providing an acceptable game plan is produced. If not, you're gone. It ensures a high standard of sellers, products and service, iow integrity towards the customers.

A similar rating system should be in place for sitting politicians. There is no reason why anonymous opinion polls (currently being held regularly on all sorts of topics, and accepted as viable ways of measuring whatever is being measured) cannot be held nation wide on the performance of individual politicians.
If nothing else, it would focus their attention on what they need to do rather than waffle their way into 200k a year or so.
Perfect example of what this would avoid is the recent event in Greece where one of the government parties thought it acceptable to answer a simple yes/no question with "present". who do they think they are, and what do they think we are? I'm sure you have plenty of similar examples in your part of the world.
It is not a matter of recall elections, it is a matter of proving your political worth or being made leave the playground.
And if a politician loses his seat, though. Let him/her explain that to the constituents who put him/her there. It will most certainly ensure non-election next time around, and make the next one think twice before acting the maggot.


Not every failure to deliver is down to fraud or deceit. As part of a coalition Lab couldn't have expected to achieve everything in its manifesto. The problem with the current government is that they don't seem to be getting anything at all of their policy implemented.

Very true. But if a party or politician decides to come out during an election campaign with so called "red line issues", only to conveniently forget the red line after being elected, then that party or politician is indeed, to say the least, devious. To me, it is fraud. The votes obtained through such "red line issues" are fraudulently obtained, it is as simnple as that.
It is high time that politicians everywhere are forced to practice politics instead of playing politics. Proper politics require honesty, integrity, and most of all a basis of principles, not populist promises.
The weather vane politics we experience here in Greece, and from what I gather Ireland is experiencing too, is indeed very much the cause of where we all are, and are totally unacceptable. It's time politicians are told so.

Slim Buddha
16-12-2012, 06:56 AM
Basically what FF tried to do to save itself. . Remember the leadership heave in the dying days? Catharsis never works for very long at any level. Including at the ballot box. This is why, paradoxically , FF are being resurrected by the electorate. They want to get punish us and put almost anyone else back in. This will continue until, well I don't know really.

And if you don´t know, GG, few others will know either. The idea of resurrecting FF in any shape, make or form is a damning indictment of Irish politics as it has been practiced over the last 30 years.

There is a large number of people in Ireland who genuinely believe that the function of TDs is to bring swimming pools and the like to their constituency. In other words, they have no idea that the primary function of TDs is to legislate. This disconnect is so large that the notion of actually introducing a political philosophy into the debate is generally frowned upon. As long as the system of government and electing a parliament,remains as it is, nothing will change. FF will promise a lot of codswallop, a number will believe it and their profile will improve to the point where they will dare to position themselves as an alternative government party. And the criminal imbecility will renew itself again.

I see nothing that can stop this process because there are more than enough people who will buy into this idiocy.

Greengoddess
16-12-2012, 10:06 AM
Hmm, apples and oranges. The electorate don't want to punish Labour, they simply have no faith in them and are abandoning them in disgust. They gave Labour a chance and had it thrown back in their faces. Labour unlike FF do not have the critical mass of a substantial core vote to fall back on and FF unlike Labour can mix it up with FG and SF.

There's a window of perhaps a year when Labour could pull the plug and retain up to 13% of the vote. Beyond that they're facing a meltdown when they get within sight of the local and European elections. Panic stations, people jumping ship and an all mighty kicking in the local and European elections, which will set SF and FF up very nicely for the GE and leave them looking at 20%+ each while Labour struggle to get over 10%.

The half-in half-out act of the dissidents without any product to show for it is likely to begin to wear thin with the public sooner than you think.
Shaadi gives me another sleepless night!

C. Flower
16-12-2012, 11:10 AM
Shaadi gives me another sleepless night!

Your party leaders seem to be making the Promissory Notes a line in the sand.

You might not have to worry too much longer.

Greengoddess
16-12-2012, 01:08 PM
Your party leaders seem to be making the Promissory Notes a line in the sand.

You might not have to worry too much longer.
Is that in papers or what ? Haven't read them due to buying turkey etc.

PaddyJoe
16-12-2012, 01:15 PM
Is that in papers or what ? Haven't read them due to buying turkey etc.

The Sunday Indo, so I'm making allowances for the made up nonsense factor. But still..

A FURIOUS row broke out between "big beast" Fine Gael and Labour ministers at a Cabinet meeting last week in relation to the hugely contentious Anglo Irish Bank promissory note payment due in March, the Sunday Independent can exclusively reveal.

Finance Minister Michael Noonan rounded on Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte during what was described by authoritative sources as "angry exchanges".

At one point Mr Noonan is said to have snarled at Mr Rabbitte that the promissory note issue was "none of your business", but Mr Rabbitte is said to have declared that the issue is "fundamental to the future of the Government"
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rabbitte-keep-your-nose-out-of-prom-note-rages-noonan-3327188.html

C. Flower
16-12-2012, 01:16 PM
Is that in papers or what ? Haven't read them due to buying turkey etc.

Reportedly, in the Indo and other papers, there was a Cabinet row between Noonan and Rabitte, in which Noonan told Rabitte to keep quiet about the Promissory Notes. There are a number of statements from Labour people about this being a make or break issue.

Noonan wants to continue to lie in his own way on this, without the complication of someone saying outright that we won't pay the notes.
Both Labour and FG are lying about last March's note "not having been paid."

The Labour leadership is all over the media right now - Gilmore on RTE radio one right now.

Everything is being vested by them in the economy recovering in a year.

"By this time next year I expect that the IMF will be getting out of this country."

Gilmore must know that can't be the case. We have levels of debt that can't be repaid, and we have seen in Greece what happens when a country cuts hard and fast when there is unemployment crisis. I really can't envisage what he proposes to say next year. Perhaps thinks we will all be too depressed to object. Or perhaps he plans to retire before then.

Gilmore talks about "getting the Country out of this mess." He completely accepts the FG outlook that what is good for capital = what is good for "the country."

In believing that we are going to see an end to the crisis via this budget, he is either delusional, lying, or - in accord with his past form - saying what is expedient without any regard for whether it is true or not.

Just name-checked Hilary Clinton again... :)

Ephilant
16-12-2012, 01:35 PM
I really can't envisage what he proposes to say next year.

He can quote Samaras (TROIKA copyright, so I suppose it will be ok for your guys to use this too):

- We have turned a corner
- ..... (Fill in as required) is back on it's feet
- This is the last of the austerity packages to be implemented
- The sacrifices made by the .... (Fill in as required) people have not been in vain
- We will never look back
- ...... (Fill in as required) will grow

Or, as a back-up, just in case, the tried and tested

Ireland is not Greece.... :D

Greengoddess
16-12-2012, 01:46 PM
The Sunday Indo, so I'm making allowances for the made up nonsense factor. But still..

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rabbitte-keep-your-nose-out-of-prom-note-rages-noonan-3327188.html

:D

Greengoddess
16-12-2012, 01:50 PM
Big beasts? There are little ones I suppose too.

PaddyJoe
16-12-2012, 01:55 PM
Big beasts? There are little ones I suppose too.

It was the little mammals that survived when the dinosaurs got wiped out, no?:)

Greengoddess
16-12-2012, 02:18 PM
It was the little mammals that survived when the dinosaurs got wiped out, no?:)

I wonder what kind if an animal am I? ;)

jmcc
16-12-2012, 02:18 PM
The Sunday Indo, so I'm making allowances for the made up nonsense factor. But still..

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rabbitte-keep-your-nose-out-of-prom-note-rages-noonan-3327188.htmlBit of a Holy Handgrenade of Antioch moment for Rabbitte. :) Wonder if his ego can handle it?

Regards...jmcc

Captain Con O'Sullivan
16-12-2012, 03:06 PM
If Gilmore thinks the Germans are going to allow Ireland a budget for 'growth' in the next year he's madder than Noonan.

DCon
16-12-2012, 03:08 PM
If Gilmore thinks the Germans are going to allow Ireland a budget for 'growth' in the next year he's madder than Noonan.

Gilmore is a talker, not a doer, and all he is interested in is the soundbite. Regardless of the actual reality

Captain Con O'Sullivan
16-12-2012, 04:08 PM
Yes- this will be an 'arranged' leak from cabinet. All choreography. The same 'hints' of serious cabinet splits and arguments were on show from Fianna Fail and the Green Party remember... it is all a game.

It is a bit of choreography thrown as a bone to sagging Labour Party members in the same way that the Green's tried to shore up their party with a nonsense about opposing from the inside.

jmcc
16-12-2012, 05:26 PM
Ordinarily I would agree, but Labour seems to be rising up against the Stickie and collaborator element represented by Gilmore, Rabbitte, Quinn, Howlin et al. This could all go pear shaped very quickly - and before the Mayan event too.

Regards...jmcc

Greengoddess
16-12-2012, 05:59 PM
Ordinarily I would agree, but Labour seems to be rising up against the Stickie and collaborator element represented by Gilmore, Rabbitte, Quinn, Howlin et al. This could all go pear shaped very quickly - and before the Mayan event too.

Regards...jmcc
They should be sinking their teeth into the ECB, not Keaveney. I thought Nulty had a good article in the Mail today too.
What is the Mayan event?

jmcc
16-12-2012, 06:25 PM
They should be sinking their teeth into the ECB, not Keaveney. I thought Nulty had a good article in the Mail today too.
What is the Mayan event?Apparently some people think that the end of the world occurs on Friday due to some interpretations of a Mayan calendar. I remember reading a prediction that the event would occur on 23 December 2011. But then again there was no year zero in the current calendar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_calendar_ending#2012_and_the_Long_Count
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon

Regards...jmcc

Shaadi
16-12-2012, 10:49 PM
I wonder what kind if an animal am I? ;)A stray cat who wandered into a strange house, never truly owned by the new family. Your loyalty is conditional and you're just itching to stick your claws into the master of the house, a fat bullying man who's always threatening to kick you in the hole when you won't shut up. ;)

Baron von Biffo
16-12-2012, 10:56 PM
A stray cat who wandered into a strange house, never truly owned by the new family. Your loyalty is conditional and you're just itching to stick your claws into the master of the house, a fat bullying man who's always threatening to kick you in the hole when you won't shut up. ;)

http://i47.tinypic.com/swr5nm.jpg

Mogg E reacts to claims that fat men kick stray cats in the hole.

fluffybiscuits
16-12-2012, 11:02 PM
A stray cat who wandered into a strange house, never truly owned by the new family. Your loyalty is conditional and you're just itching to stick your claws into the master of the house, a fat bullying man who's always threatening to kick you in the hole when you won't shut up. ;)

Comment of the year :D

Greengoddess
16-12-2012, 11:04 PM
A stray cat who wandered into a strange house, never truly owned by the new family. Your loyalty is conditional and you're just itching to stick your claws into the master of the house, a fat bullying man who's always threatening to kick you in the hole when you won't shut up. ;)

Well I did ask for that! Off to watch TWIP. Probably a mistake .

Shaadi
16-12-2012, 11:17 PM
Well I did ask for that! Off to watch TWIP. Probably a mistake .Take it as a compliment, I'm a cat lover.:)