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fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 12:23 AM
I applaud James Mc Cleans stance on not wearing the poppy. My great great uncle fought in the first world war and was only 19 when he died in the battle of the Somme. The poppy is an ever lasting symbol of those whom fell but it is also used to fund imperial ambitions of colonial states. We should start a movement to look at an alternative symbol for the Irish that have fallen that could generate funds to be used to help humanitarian organisations. By buying a poppy its an endorsement of war and soldiers and their ilk whom are involved. Those whom died in WW1 did not die in vain and we must remember their efforts that helped us live in a free world. I would have no problem wearing it if it were going to fund something pacifist and not imperalistic murderers, its not the symbolism that is the issue, we can all agree on that, its the soldiers whom are benefitting from it. As far as I am aware there is a white poppy that can be worn where the proceeds dont go to soldiers...What should be the alternative?

People Korps
12-11-2012, 12:30 AM
I applaud James Mc Cleans stance on not wearing the poppy. My great great uncle fought in the first world war and was only 19 when he died in the battle of the Somme. The poppy is an ever lasting symbol of those whom fell but it is also used to fund imperial ambitions of colonial states. We should start a movement to look at an alternative symbol for the Irish that have fallen that could generate funds to be used to help humanitarian organisations. By buying a poppy its an endorsement of war and soldiers and their ilk whom are involved. Those whom died in WW1 did not die in vain and we must remember their efforts that helped us live in a free world. I would have no problem wearing it if it were going to fund something pacifist and not imperalistic murderers, its not the symbolism that is the issue, we can all agree on that, its the soldiers whom are benefitting from it. As far as I am aware there is a white poppy that can be worn where the proceeds dont go to soldiers...What should be the alternative?

A white flag? they shot children who were shell shocked and the poppy helps them aggrandize the total murder of innocents both by war and by their using the tools of terror/terrorism such as the firing squad and weapons of mass destruction such as cannonade and gas.. To commemorate WW I in any way other than an annual apology to the families who lost people in it is a disgusting and human debasing which should not be adhered to or recognised by any sentient being,

Dojo
12-11-2012, 01:47 AM
If you want to remember fallen Irish men on foreign fields, and at home, wear the Easter Lily. I have never however, for the simple reason the men and women of 1916 and the war of liberation fought so I wouldn't HAVE to. Britain is a fascist police state with a servile worshipping of its imperialist agenda. I can be thankful I live in country that rejects all that *****.

Richardbouvet
12-11-2012, 10:03 AM
"Britain is a fascist police state with a servile worshipping of its imperialist agenda. I can be thankful I live in country that rejects all that *****."

So you live in a country that rejects the servile worship of an imperialist agenda. That's nice. What country is it?

DCon
12-11-2012, 10:09 AM
A man has been arrested for posting a picture


A man has been arrested in Britain for posting an image of a burning poppy on a social network site.

A man, from Aylesham, was detained last night on suspicion of making malicious telecommunications and that he was in custody awaiting interview.

The statement from Kent police does not say whether the arrested man actually burned the poppy, or just posted the photo online.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/outrage-as-man-arrested-for-posting-picture-of-burning-poppy-3291148.html

Ogiol
12-11-2012, 10:58 AM
I applaud James Mc Cleans stance on not wearing the poppy. My great great uncle fought in the first world war and was only 19 when he died in the battle of the Somme. The poppy is an ever lasting symbol of those whom fell but it is also used to fund imperial ambitions of colonial states. We should start a movement to look at an alternative symbol for the Irish that have fallen that could generate funds to be used to help humanitarian organisations. By buying a poppy its an endorsement of war and soldiers and their ilk whom are involved. Those whom died in WW1 did not die in vain and we must remember their efforts that helped us live in a free world. I would have no problem wearing it if it were going to fund something pacifist and not imperalistic murderers, its not the symbolism that is the issue, we can all agree on that, its the soldiers whom are benefitting from it. As far as I am aware there is a white poppy that can be worn where the proceeds dont go to soldiers...What should be the alternative?

Not King nor Kaiser.

Oh... and it WAS all in vain.

Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the pain,
The killing and dying, were all done in vain,

For young willy mc bride, it all happened again,
again and again and again and again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntt3wy-L8Ok&feature=fvwrel)

C. Flower
12-11-2012, 11:34 AM
Two young men in the north of this island were taken to Court last year for burning a poppy. That seems to me to be a gross curtailment of freedom of expression as it was clearly a symbolic act of political protest.

C. Flower
12-11-2012, 11:36 AM
The old euphemism "fell" or "fallen" for the gassed, butchered, dismembered, or flu-ridden dead men of imperialist wars seems to be being promoted again.

Saoirse go Deo
12-11-2012, 12:10 PM
Couple of lads were arrested last year in the north for burning a poppy too.

Don't forget the RBL supported the Nazis until just before the war, Daily Mail doesn't tend to mention that however.

Fair play to James McClean for standing up for what he believes in. I thought FIFA had rules on displaying political symbols?

Celtic don't have bloodstained poppies on their kit but instead donate ten grand quietly on the side - not something I'm happy with but a bit of a compromise. This stands out for me: (I don't agree with the video's title).
Celtic Remembrance day shame - YouTube

If politics and sport are to be mixed then you can't expect one political agenda to be subscribed to by all.

McClean's jersey is being auctioned off, for a much worthier cause, Crumlins kids hospital I believe.

Remembrance month, or even month and a half as people wear it starting in October, is a base piece of jingoism and recruitment propaganda for a new generation of murderers.

Great Grandfather fought in WW1 and WW2 and I remember him. Don't need a poppy to do so. He never wore a poppy and described WW1 as an utter waste and the foundation for the second world war, one which he felt was just. Felt guilty apparently about WW1 which is why he went back for WW2. I think he was wrong to join up in either instance.

http://omg.wthax.org/Vets_Burn_discharge_papers_1.jpg

The above is a group if British Army veterans burning their discharge papers in the north because of the actions of the British Army on the streets of their country.

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 12:28 PM
Not King nor Kaiser.

Oh... and it WAS all in vain.

Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the pain,
The killing and dying, were all done in vain,

For young willy mc bride, it all happened again,
again and again and again and again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntt3wy-L8Ok&feature=fvwrel)

Help me out here for a moment, you are of the opinon we should assert our independence. In the face of invading armies and indpendence being eroded then there is a need to fight. So apart from them fighting and having their independence being eroded what do they do? There was no alternative for some of these young men...

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Couple of lads were arrested last year in the north for burning a poppy too.

Don't forget the RBL supported the Nazis until just before the war, Daily Mail doesn't tend to mention that however.

Fair play to James McClean for standing up for what he believes in. I thought FIFA had rules on displaying political symbols?

Celtic don't have bloodstained poppies on their kit but instead donate ten grand quietly on the side - not something I'm happy with but a bit of a compromise. This stands out for me: (I don't agree with the video's title).
Celtic Remembrance day shame - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXWvXyKhtWA)

If politics and sport are to be mixed then you can't expect one political agenda to be subscribed to by all.

McClean's jersey is being auctioned off, for a much worthier cause, Crumlins kids hospital I believe.

Remembrance month, or even month and a half as people wear it starting in October, is a base piece of jingoism and recruitment propaganda for a new generation of murderers.

Great Grandfather fought in WW1 and WW2 and I remember him. Don't need a poppy to do so. He never wore a poppy and described WW1 as an utter waste and the foundation for the second world war, one which he felt was just. Felt guilty apparently about WW1 which is why he went back for WW2. I think he was wrong to join up in either instance.

http://omg.wthax.org/Vets_Burn_discharge_papers_1.jpg

The above is a group if British Army veterans burning their discharge papers in the north because of the actions of the British Army on the streets of their country.

Think that is the path some of us (including me) should follow and take a leaf out of your book on that one. !

Agree with CF's statement, the burning of the poppy is a political statement against imperialism and what it stands for.

goatstoe
12-11-2012, 12:43 PM
Eamon McCann on Newstalk there about the annual poppy month long fest and James McClean. He had a go at Kenny and Gilmore as well. What is the significance of the laurel wreaths that Kenny and Gilmore were laying yesterday?

McClean should be applauded and supported by all right thinking people for the stance he has taken. Fair play to him, shows an independence of thought and strength of character.

C. Flower
12-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Help me out here for a moment, you are of the opinon we should assert our independence. In the face of invading armies and indpendence being eroded then there is a need to fight. So apart from them fighting and having their independence being eroded what do they do? There was no alternative for some of these young men...

WW1 was not about young men defending their independence. Most went for the money as they were poor.

WW1 from the point of view of socialists was a carve up of territory between big powers for markets. It was to the eternal shame of the social democratic parties, who had millions of workers as members, that they abandoned the International and voted for war. Members of the same workers' organisation were then sent to slaughter each other.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/aug/x01.htm


1.The European and world war has the clearly defined character of a bourgeois, imperialist and dynastic war. A struggle for markets and for freedom to loot foreign countries, a striving to suppress the revolutionary movement of the proletariat and democracy in the individual countries, a desire to deceive, disunite, and slaughter the proletarians of all countries by setting the wage slaves of one nation against those of another so as to benefit the bourgeoisie—these are the only real content and significance of the war.



2.The conduct of the leaders of the German Social-Democratic Party, the strongest and the most influential in the Second International (1889-1914), a party which has voted for war credits and repeated the bourgeois-chauvinist phrases of the Prussian Junkers and the bourgeoisie, is sheer betrayal of socialism. ..



3.The conduct of the Belgian and French Social-Democratic party leaders, who have betrayed socialism by entering bourgeois governments,[2] (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/aug/x01.htm#fwV21E002) is just as reprehensible.

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Eamon McCann on Newstalk there about the annual poppy month long fest and James McClean. He had a go at Kenny and Gilmore as well. What is the significance of the laurel wreaths that Kenny and Gilmore were laying yesterday?

McClean should be applauded and supported by all right thinking people for the stance he has taken. Fair play to him, shows an independence of thought and strength of character.

Very much so, he was very independent minded. Some of the sheeple went along with the crowd :)

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 01:03 PM
WW1 was not about young men defending their independence. Most went for the money as they were poor.

WW1 from the point of view of socialists was a carve up of territory between big powers for markets. It was to the eternal shame of the social democratic parties, who had millions of workers as members, that they abandoned the International and voted for war.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/aug/x01.htm

Ah I was aware of that, that was why I mentioned that there was no alternative for a lot of these men as there was a lack of employment opportunities for them. As per war being big business it was rich pickings for a lot of munition manufacturers etc that were in existence at the time . There was an element though of capturing the lands that were there for the expansion of a capitalist society. German took over Luxembourg and Belgium (Walloon at the time was a huge powerhouse industrially). Erosion of independence and expansion of capital go hand in hand IMO.

Apjp
12-11-2012, 01:59 PM
I applaud James Mc Cleans stance on not wearing the poppy. My great great uncle fought in the first world war and was only 19 when he died in the battle of the Somme. The poppy is an ever lasting symbol of those whom fell but it is also used to fund imperial ambitions of colonial states. We should start a movement to look at an alternative symbol for the Irish that have fallen that could generate funds to be used to help humanitarian organisations. By buying a poppy its an endorsement of war and soldiers and their ilk whom are involved. Those whom died in WW1 did not die in vain and we must remember their efforts that helped us live in a free world. I would have no problem wearing it if it were going to fund something pacifist and not imperalistic murderers, its not the symbolism that is the issue, we can all agree on that, its the soldiers whom are benefitting from it. As far as I am aware there is a white poppy that can be worn where the proceeds dont go to soldiers...What should be the alternative?

Of course they died in vain. Why else? It was the biggest family feud in history between the Russian Czar and his German cousin which the Brits were quick to get involved in. Freeing small nations and all that crap, while we were still under the foot of London.

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 02:10 PM
Of course they died in vain. Why else? It was the biggest family feud in history between the Russian Czar and his German cousin which the Brits were quick to get involved in. Freeing small nations and all that crap, while we were still under the foot of London.

Im confused myself personally. What you said there buddy is true! There was

-No alternative jobs so the young men went to war
-Capitalists seeking profits
-Erosion of independence
-Resurgence in nationalism

Its a combination of all factors I guess.. :)

Apjp
12-11-2012, 02:21 PM
Eamon McCann on Newstalk there about the annual poppy month long fest and James McClean. He had a go at Kenny and Gilmore as well. What is the significance of the laurel wreaths that Kenny and Gilmore were laying yesterday?

McClean should be applauded and supported by all right thinking people for the stance he has taken. Fair play to him, shows an independence of thought and strength of character.

Definitely. And one that John O Shea did not have. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2231071/James-McClean-refuses-wear-poppy.html When you are cushioned from reality which most professional sportsmen on extravagant wages are, it takes some bottle to believe in anything unpopular, to take a stand of any sort. Reminds me a bit of Clough sending players onto the picket lines, but even more impressive.

Apjp
12-11-2012, 02:25 PM
Im confused myself personally. What you said there buddy is true! There was

-No alternative jobs so the young men went to war
-Capitalists seeking profits
-Erosion of independence
-Resurgence in nationalism

Its a combination of all factors I guess.. :)

That is not true. In our case, our nationalism saved us from enforced conscription which would have made things worse, and the war helped to push Irish independence to the forefront of national politics. Nationalism in 1917 during the conscription crisis saved us from another 35'000 dead and from the period of 1916-1922 can largely be seen as a healthy thing in establishing an independent republic/free state and finally a modicum of independence so we would not all be sent to the firing line either by economic neccessity or conscription everytime there was a european war.

Apjp
12-11-2012, 02:31 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2231431/Has-respect-Disgraceful-moment-man-dressed-devil-gatecrashed-Remembrance-Day-service-skateboard.html That might be up your alley Fluffy. Any act of disgust at this celebration of imperial warfare is welcome though.

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 02:48 PM
That is not true. In our case, our nationalism saved us from enforced conscription which would have made things worse, and the war helped to push Irish independence to the forefront of national politics. Nationalism in 1917 during the conscription crisis saved us from another 35'000 dead and from the period of 1916-1922 can largely be seen as a healthy thing in establishing an independent republic/free state and finally a modicum of independence so we would not all be sent to the firing line either by economic neccessity or conscription everytime there was a european war.

What about the remittances sent home by troops from the front line?

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 02:50 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2231431/Has-respect-Disgraceful-moment-man-dressed-devil-gatecrashed-Remembrance-Day-service-skateboard.html That might be up your alley Fluffy. Any act of disgust at this celebration of imperial warfare is welcome though.

Did you see the tutu? Where would I buy one like that? :p

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DyHt7vPHafU/TLemFZ10XrI/AAAAAAAAAwQ/yvbEcQXW6Es/s1600/yellow_guy_crazy_hg_wht.gif

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 02:51 PM
Just to add

The funds raised is what I take biggest issue with. Thousnads of men who needlessly die in Iraq or injured and maimed in Afghanistan....Horrible stuff...

Ogiol
12-11-2012, 02:51 PM
Im confused myself personally. What you said there buddy is true! There was

-No alternative jobs so the young men went to war
-Capitalists seeking profits
-Erosion of independence
-Resurgence in nationalism

Its a combination of all factors I guess.. :)

How were there no alternative jobs for young men. If that was the case there would've been hundreds of thousands of them in the brit army. Why didnt that happen tho would be a good question?

And maybe staying home and fighting the imperial occupation force would have served those young men better and possibly helped oust the colonists from their position of power in the north-east.

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 03:24 PM
How were there no alternative jobs for young men. If that was the case there would've been hundreds of thousands of them in the brit army. Why didnt that happen tho would be a good question?

And maybe staying home and fighting the imperial occupation force would have served those young men better and possibly helped oust the colonists from their position of power in the north-east.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_and_World_War_I#cite_note-63


When the Irish Divisions raised for the war were demobilised, roughly 100,000 war veterans returned to Ireland. This indicates that in the region of 70-80,000 decided to live elsewhere.[63] Several reasons may explain this, one being high unemployment in Ireland and another being the rise of militant nationalism in the country, which in many cases was hostile to those who had served in the British forces.


Feeding your family can be more of a priority than fighting the English...

Apjp
12-11-2012, 03:26 PM
What about the remittances sent home by troops from the front line?

Done out of economic neccessity. What's your point? That Britain made up for all its' imperialist evils and cruelties by paying economically desperate people a basic wage?

fluffybiscuits
12-11-2012, 03:30 PM
Done out of economic neccessity. What's your point? That Britain made up for all its' imperialist evils and cruelties by paying economically desperate people a basic wage?

Never said that at all, these people felt they had no other option. Fight or flight, some chose both in some cases. The world was very different back then...

Apjp
12-11-2012, 08:38 PM
Never said that at all, these people felt they had no other option. Fight or flight, some chose both in some cases. The world was very different back then...

Then why did you dodge my point that Nationalism helped stop the Irish from being conscripted in response to your previous post alleging nationalism on Ireland's part made us responsible for entering the war by shyting on about remittances? Home Rulers sending people to their slaughter were hardly republicans/nationalists.

Ogiol
12-11-2012, 09:47 PM
Then why did you dodge my point that Nationalism helped stop the Irish from being conscripted in response to your previous post alleging nationalism on Ireland's part made us responsible for entering the war by shyting on about remittances? Home Rulers sending people to their slaughter were hardly republicans/nationalists.

Nor were they worth the crap on the sole of your shoe. Sold out cowardly west brit scum to encouraged and persuaded thousands to go to their deaths, fighting for the same side that had caused millions of deaths in Ireland just 2 generations ago. I mean, how twisted can u get??

BTW so fluff logic says that young men went cause they had no money and the remittance was going to help their families, rather than staying at home and fighting to kick the colonial imperialists out which in turn would allow the boot to be taken from irelands neck and thus a return to some semblance of economic normality Is that it?

The next post will most certainly go along the lines that ''why fight our brothers, dont we all speak english anyway'':eek:

fluffybiscuits
13-11-2012, 12:12 AM
Then why did you dodge my point that Nationalism helped stop the Irish from being conscripted in response to your previous post alleging nationalism on Ireland's part made us responsible for entering the war by shyting on about remittances? Home Rulers sending people to their slaughter were hardly republicans/nationalists.

I asked about remittances sent home and you said "Done out of economic necessity", so it was necessary for the soldiers to go :confused:


Nor were they worth the crap on the sole of your shoe. Sold out cowardly west brit scum to encouraged and persuaded thousands to go to their deaths, fighting for the same side that had caused millions of deaths in Ireland just 2 generations ago. I mean, how twisted can u get??

BTW so fluff logic says that young men went cause they had no money and the remittance was going to help their families, rather than staying at home and fighting to kick the colonial imperialists out which in turn would allow the boot to be taken from irelands neck and thus a return to some semblance of economic normality Is that it?

The next post will most certainly go along the lines that ''why fight our brothers, dont we all speak english anyway'':eek:

Im confused, so they head out to the Somme, die and earn money to feed their families or they stay here, fight the English and get no money and die? Which would you choose? This whole west brit scum label should have a godwin style law attached to it...:p

Actually why should we fight our brothers? Again language is just one of these cultural things that is constructed by society that you see as being divisive, you could see it as being something to embrace :)

Shaadi
13-11-2012, 10:02 AM
Those Irish soldiers who fought in the first world war, they were just cannon fodder. In the days before social welfare, you had to do what you had to do to survive and for many of the urban poor the British Army was a job. Which didn't make you stand out so much until the conscription crisis turned the country on the path to Independence. All had changed by the time the war was over, they were like the American troops returning from Vietnam. Many of them messed up in the head from what they'd been through and unloved at home.

That left a whole heap of people with divided loyalties and there's a substantial rump of people from that family background who still have divided loyalties and a bitterness that they may not even be aware of.

As for the poppy, a nice idea as a symbol for people who want to honour the dead, but in reality it's a tool of the British Establishment to glorify militarism. The poppy facism in the British media is just another version of the the Royal worshipping that the BBC and others do to promote the British class system.

The whole promotion of the British Establishment as decent is nothing but a ruse to keep the British plebs content. The Jimmy Saville culture of cover ups and the turning of a blind eye by the law to that, should tell you all you need to know about how the connected in any country are all one big nod and a wink class.

The whole thing reminds me of Tony Blair sending soldiers off to kill and be killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I always think of Blair as being like Lord Farquaad in Shrek who says " some of you may die, but it's a price I am willing to pay".

fluffybiscuits
13-11-2012, 02:03 PM
Those Irish soldiers who fought in the first world war, they were just cannon fodder. In the days before social welfare, you had to do what you had to do to survive and for many of the urban poor the British Army was a job. Which didn't make you stand out so much until the conscription crisis turned the country on the path to Independence. All had changed by the time the war was over, they were like the American troops returning from Vietnam. Many of them messed up in the head from what they'd been through and unloved at home.

That left a whole heap of people with divided loyalties and there's a substantial rump of people from that family background who still have divided loyalties and a bitterness that they may not even be aware of.

As for the poppy, a nice idea as a symbol for people who want to honour the dead, but in reality it's a tool of the British Establishment to glorify militarism. The poppy facism in the British media is just another version of the the Royal worshipping that the BBC and others do to promote the British class system.

The whole promotion of the British Establishment as decent is nothing but a ruse to keep the British plebs content. The Jimmy Saville culture of cover ups and the turning of a blind eye by the law to that, should tell you all you need to know about how the connected in any country are all one big nod and a wink class.

The whole thing reminds me of Tony Blair sending soldiers off to kill and be killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I always think of Blair as being like Lord Farquaad in Shrek who says " some of you may die, but it's a price I am willing to pay".



Again a lot more eloquent than I could ever have put it. Where the problem was for me was that the money that was being taken from the sale of the poppy was being used to fund the veterans from Iraq,Afghanistan and probably NI also. This is what irked me, soldiers are parts of the imperialist war machine and these people are cogs. Back then the situation was different, they were lead to their deaths byt the British and were between a hard rock and a place.

Saoirse go Deo
13-11-2012, 06:41 PM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/11/13/1352765487552/13.11.12-Steve-Bell-on-te-008.jpg

Richardbouvet
13-11-2012, 08:01 PM
"Where the problem was for me was that the money that was being taken from the sale of the poppy was being used to fund the veterans from Iraq,Afghanistan and probably NI also. This is what irked me, soldiers are parts of the imperialist war machine and these people are cogs"

Fluffy, what is wrong with funding veterans? Surely they are people who need help, even if they served in a wrongful war?

Reactionary politics in 1920s Italy and in 1970s America were both fuelled in part by veterans' feeling of rejection. Veterans should be embraced, not shunned as some were.

Ogiol
13-11-2012, 09:05 PM
"Where the problem was for me was that the money that was being taken from the sale of the poppy was being used to fund the veterans from Iraq,Afghanistan and probably NI also. This is what irked me, soldiers are parts of the imperialist war machine and these people are cogs"

Fluffy, what is wrong with funding veterans? Surely they are people who need help, even if they served in a wrongful war?

Reactionary politics in 1920s Italy and in 1970s America were both fuelled in part by veterans' feeling of rejection. Veterans should be embraced, not shunned as some were.

We only have a handful of veterans, from the congo peacekeeping mission. Otherwise. we have NO veterans to look after who are not looked after by the state.

Why would James Mc Clean wear a poppy in honor of soldiers from the same bxxxxxxd army that not only murdered 13 civilians in his home city, but many more in cold blood around ulster. What is incongruent is that not EVERY one can understand and Support that position.

fluffybiscuits
19-11-2012, 11:22 PM
"Where the problem was for me was that the money that was being taken from the sale of the poppy was being used to fund the veterans from Iraq,Afghanistan and probably NI also. This is what irked me, soldiers are parts of the imperialist war machine and these people are cogs"

Fluffy, what is wrong with funding veterans? Surely they are people who need help, even if they served in a wrongful war?

Reactionary politics in 1920s Italy and in 1970s America were both fuelled in part by veterans' feeling of rejection. Veterans should be embraced, not shunned as some were.

They do need help but they are not a special case. If that was the case of a wrongful war why dont we help raise funds for the IRA? The verterans feelings at the moment is to support war, there is no one out there discussing the evils of war. In fact if all things are equal why dont we compensate those whom were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan as they were fighting western Imperialism . At the end of the day these veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan fought a war which there was no need to fight, the British soldiers could have left the army and were aware of the war they were getting themselves into. When they set foot in Afghanistan and had a leg torn off they should have chosen the safer option and stayed at home. There is a lot of young men whom joined as they had no other option as there was no other jobs but they could have as easily joined a non combat role. These men who this campaign supports are people with blood on their hands, thats cliched but its the truth.

Saoirse go Deo
27-02-2013, 11:47 PM
He tweeted the other day about how "Broad Black Brimmer" was his fave Wolfe Tones song. Sunderland fined him two weeks wages.

Disgrace.

Saoirse go Deo
27-10-2013, 01:07 PM
Be interesting to see what happens this year. This poppy crap starts earlier every year

Apjp
27-10-2013, 01:58 PM
Yeah starting to see them pop up again ;) I really hope we get a few more Mcleans in future. Good when footballers and other figures don't entirely forget their upbringing, and by that I mean not pissing on where you came from just to please a few imperial pricks.

Holly
27-10-2013, 02:35 PM
The Free State maligning of Irishmen who fought in World War II is a disgrace. If for no other reason than to expose this spitefulness, the poppy should be worn with pride.

...In Flanders fields
The poppies grow
Between the crosses
Row on row
That mark out place
We are the dead...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI0rXclqoPU

SeŠn Ryan
27-10-2013, 02:44 PM
The Free State maligning of Irishmen who fought in World War II is a disgrace. If for no other reason than to expose this spitefulness, the poppy should be worn with pride.

...In Flanders fields
The poppies grow
Between the crosses
Row on row
That mark out place
We are the dead...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI0rXclqoPU

The poppy commemorates a lot more than the allied dead of WWII. I'd rather wear a bus.

5intheface
27-10-2013, 02:52 PM
I think it was trow who once said something along the lines of;

"Raise money so that former UDR men can buy cheap pints in the legion? No thanks!"

:D

http://itsapoeticalworld.com/2012/11/11/poppies/

Holly
27-10-2013, 02:53 PM
The poppy commemorates a lot more than the allied dead of WWII. I'd rather wear a bus.

You are wrong to suggest that those who died in WWII cannot be commemorated by wearing the poppy.

SeŠn Ryan
27-10-2013, 02:54 PM
You are wrong to suggest that those who died in WWII cannot be commemorated by wearing the poppy.

I didn't say they weren't part of the package.

5intheface
27-10-2013, 03:02 PM
...In Flanders fields
The poppies grow
Between the crosses
Row on row
That mark out place
We are the dead...


Whatever McCrea's intentions were with this poem, it was used for decades as a shameful tool of recruitment to a series of questionable wars and as a justification of both those wars and for the young men and women who bought the lie and didn't return.

Poppy fascism alive and growing every year.

SeŠn Ryan
27-10-2013, 03:10 PM
We spent £84 million in 2012 on health and welfare for the Armed Forces community - that's £1.6 million every week.

We've committed £50 million over 10 years to help serving men and women who are wounded, injured or sick. The money will be used to develop the Battle Back Centre, an adaptive sports facility in Shropshire and to fund the operating costs of four Personnel Recovery Centres in the UK and a Personnel Recovery Unit in Germany. The facilities are part of the MoD's Defence Recovery Capability initiative, delivered in partnership with Help for Heroes and The Royal British Legion, alongside other Service charities and agencies.
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/faqs

I'd prefer to see soldiers returning, from their imperialist forays, put into a building and blown to bits with some ordinance left over from whatever crusade they're returning from.

Then slap a poppy on each grave. So that they're properly remembered. I don't particularly care if some of them are Irish west Brits. Screw them. I hope it was slow and painful.

Holly
27-10-2013, 03:11 PM
...
Poppy fascism alive and growing every year.

Some of us have no such cynical bitterness as yourself, 5intheface, and believe it is proper to honor those who fell in battle, regardless of the side they were on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GaBbN7ZZMc

5intheface
27-10-2013, 03:17 PM
Some of us have no such cynical bitterness as yourself, 5intheface, and believe it is proper to honor those who fell in battle, regardless of the side they were on.
]

If it's to honour those who fell in battle, you have the option to wear a white poppy.

If it's to show blind support for the military campaigns waged by Britain and support the very questionable stated aims of the British Legion's Poppy Appeal, then red is the colour.

Holly
27-10-2013, 03:28 PM
If it's to honour those who fell in battle, you have the option to wear a white poppy. ...
This alternative option, wherever it sprang from, will never catch-on. The poppies in Flanders grow red.

5intheface
27-10-2013, 03:36 PM
This alternative option, wherever it sprang from, will never catch-on. The poppies in Flanders grow red.

You can't wear a poppy produced by the British Legion and then decide you are wearing it for only one of the campaign's stated aims. Well, you can of course but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you are a supporter of the British Army then that's fine.

The white poppy btw, has been on the go nearly as long as the red one and appears to be much closer to the reasons you are giving than the much wider aims of the red.

Holly
27-10-2013, 03:49 PM
... The white poppy btw, has been on the go nearly as long as the red one and appears to be much closer to the reasons you are giving than the much wider aims of the red.
That's funny; I have neither heard of nor seen one worn.

5intheface
27-10-2013, 03:52 PM
That's funny; I have neither heard of nor seen one worn.

Might be worth looking in to, seems to suit your stated aims much better.

C. Flower
12-11-2013, 11:00 PM
WW2 on now on RTE. Acclimatising us to seeing Irish people in British uniforms, amongst other things. A mixed bag of reminiscences that might be more interesting than I expected.

Most people went for money and / or adventure. That didn't stop references to "the ultimate sacrifice" on RTE this morning.

Holly
13-11-2013, 03:42 AM
... Most people went for money and / or adventure. ...

This is exactly what Fianna Fail/Finne Gwael/Labour say is why scores of thousands of Irish youth have emigrated in the past few years.

C. Flower
13-11-2013, 07:18 AM
This is exactly what Fianna Fail/Finne Gwael/Labour say is why scores of thousands of Irish youth have emigrated in the past few years.

It is what they said themselves about why they went. Fine Gael/FF/Labour want to dress it up as some kind of political idealism / cosy relationship with Britain.

Same with WW1. Most went for the money: they didn't have anything here..

The programme itself was ok. There is not really that much awareness in Ireland of what Nazism was like, and it did convey that to some extent.

Ogiol
13-11-2013, 12:23 PM
Did anyone hear that utter tripe that was on newstalk yesterday, around 1pm. It was an interview with some religious figure and both him and the presenter were basically saying the poppy was a great symbol and that 'the same oul crowd' were just cranks. The revisionism was astonishing and everytime someone texted in pointing out some simple but argument wrecking facts (i.e. the poppy signifies the black and tans and the paras etc.) it was just dismissed as crankism... Shocking stuff for more than 30 mins.... Havent listened to newstalk since....

C. Flower
13-11-2013, 12:50 PM
Did anyone hear that utter tripe that was on newstalk yesterday, around 1pm. It was an interview with some religious figure and both him and the presenter were basically saying the poppy was a great symbol and that 'the same oul crowd' were just cranks. The revisionism was astonishing and everytime someone texted in pointing out some simple but argument wrecking facts (i.e. the poppy signifies the black and tans and the paras etc.) it was just dismissed as crankism... Shocking stuff for more than 30 mins.... Havent listened to newstalk since....

The increasingly militarised character of British society puts us in the happeny place, but this is spill over, and it is part of the same strategy as QE2s visit.

5intheface
13-11-2013, 09:25 PM
More internet poppy madness with James McClean (again) and a BBC newsreader on the receiving end of abuse and threats for their decision not to wear the bloody petals.

McClean form Derry, wear a poppy that commemorates the paras?

World gone insane again.

Holly
13-11-2013, 11:18 PM
The increasingly militarised character of British society ...???
The Department of Defense has been cut to the bone in Britain.

Saoirse go Deo
14-11-2013, 03:09 PM
More internet poppy madness with James McClean (again) and a BBC newsreader on the receiving end of abuse and threats for their decision not to wear the bloody petals.

McClean form Derry, wear a poppy that commemorates the paras?

World gone insane again.

I imagine many footballers are uncomfortable wearing the poppy, especially those who are not British. McClean is to be applauded for sticking to his principles.

Charlene White, an ITV news presented received a lot of racist abuse for not wearing it.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/13/charlene-white-itv-news-presenter-remembrance-day-poppy

Saoirse go Deo
14-11-2013, 03:19 PM
???
The Department of Defense has been cut to the bone in Britain.

You say that like its a bad thing (if it were true).

The military is promoted hugely in Britain, and the poppy fascism is all about putting soldiers (and their wars) on such a high pedestal that questioning or protesting said wars is viewed as dishonoring those who fought or died in "just wars" - against the Nazis. Just look at what happens at football games, its a farce. Almost ritualistic in nature where the memory of those who fought against Hitler is used as a shield for the maimed soldiers who "served" in Afghanistan they wheel out with the match ball.

As a Celtic fan I'm proud to say that they were the only (as far as I know) club not to either have a poppy or a minutes silence at their game at the weekend.

fluffybiscuits
15-11-2013, 04:56 PM
SgD

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/christopher-jackson/irish-can-learn-from-brit_b_4254301.html

You must have missed this article, pretty inflammatory boll** from the pen of a socialist .



The Irish veterans of the Second World War fought a greater fight than the veterans of the Easter Rising or War of Independence. There were no shades of grey in their war, it was black and white.

fluffybiscuits
15-11-2013, 04:58 PM
He also has a blog

http://laymansnews.wordpress.com/

Holly
08-12-2013, 06:46 PM
Last Friday's Daily Express reported that an unemployed veteran soldier from Bury, Greater Manchester, lost his jobseeker's allowance because he was selling poppies instead of "actively seeking work". Father-of-four, Stephen Taylor (60), admitted when he signed-on at his local Jobcentre that he had spent 24 hours over a two-week period selling poppies to raise charity funds for veterans. Staff deemed that he was "in breach of rules governing benefit payments and his £71.20-a-week allowance was withdrawn."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/447024/Veteran-loses-his-jobseekers-benefits-for-selling-poppies

Saoirse go Deo
08-12-2013, 07:28 PM
Last Friday's Daily Express reported that an unemployed veteran soldier from Bury, Greater Manchester, lost his jobseeker's allowance because he was selling poppies instead of "actively seeking work". Father-of-four, Stephen Taylor (60), admitted when he signed-on at his local Jobcentre that he had spent 24 hours over a two-week period selling poppies to raise charity funds for veterans. Staff deemed that he was "in breach of rules governing benefit payments and his £71.20-a-week allowance was withdrawn."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/447024/Veteran-loses-his-jobseekers-benefits-for-selling-poppies

Your point?

Holly
08-12-2013, 07:37 PM
Your point?
English functionaries do not care about the unemployed. If I must point out on this poppy thread, the brazen disregard by government clerks for the rights of the needy then you would not understand.

riposte
08-12-2013, 07:41 PM
You say that like its a bad thing (if it were true).

The military is promoted hugely in Britain, and the poppy fascism is all about putting soldiers (and their wars) on such a high pedestal that questioning or protesting said wars is viewed as dishonoring those who fought or died in "just wars" - against the Nazis. Just look at what happens at football games, its a farce. Almost ritualistic in nature where the memory of those who fought against Hitler is used as a shield for the maimed soldiers who "served" in Afghanistan they wheel out with the match ball.

As a Celtic fan I'm proud to say that they were the only (as far as I know) club not to either have a poppy or a minutes silence at their game at the weekend.

Saoirse ...... I have been selling Easter Lilies since 1962...... and like you I'm disgusted by the sight of a forest of Poppies ploncked on everyone who appears on the BBC, UTV and more often on RTE. They appears to be a kind of black-mailing of people into wearing the poppy by the media etc.

NOW HERE IS THE QUESTION ............ How do you feel about billions of people being black-mailed into wearing a red ribbon on World AIDS Day?

Saoirse go Deo
08-12-2013, 07:42 PM
English functionaries do not care about the unemployed. If I must point out on this poppy thread, the brazen disregard by government clerks for the rights of the needy then you would not understand.

Could have been making a point about veterans.

Perhaps next time he will raise money for a legitimate charity.

C. Flower
08-12-2013, 07:53 PM
You say that like its a bad thing (if it were true).

The military is promoted hugely in Britain, and the poppy fascism is all about putting soldiers (and their wars) on such a high pedestal that questioning or protesting said wars is viewed as dishonoring those who fought or died in "just wars" - against the Nazis. Just look at what happens at football games, its a farce. Almost ritualistic in nature where the memory of those who fought against Hitler is used as a shield for the maimed soldiers who "served" in Afghanistan they wheel out with the match ball.

As a Celtic fan I'm proud to say that they were the only (as far as I know) club not to either have a poppy or a minutes silence at their game at the weekend.

This is relatively new S go D, since 9/11 I think. Apart from Buckingham Palace, the UK used to keep its army pretty invisible at home.

Saoirse go Deo
08-12-2013, 07:55 PM
Saoirse ...... I have been selling Easter Lilies since 1962...... and like you I'm disgusted by the sight of a forest of Poppies ploncked on everyone who appears on the BBC, UTV and more often on RTE. They appears to be a kind of black-mailing of people into wearing the poppy by the media etc.

NOW HERE IS THE QUESTION ............ How do you feel about billions of people being black-mailed into wearing a red ribbon on World AIDS Day?
Only ones with pins I hope :)


I had to google to see when world aids day is... it's December 1st. Can't say I've ever seen a ribbon. Good point.

Saoirse go Deo
08-12-2013, 08:01 PM
SgD

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/christopher-jackson/irish-can-learn-from-brit_b_4254301.html

You must have missed this article, pretty inflammatory boll** from the pen of a socialist .

I had missed it.... until now. I knew I shouldn't have clicked it :(

riposte
08-12-2013, 08:02 PM
Only ones with pins I hope :)


I had to google to see when world aids day is... it's December 1st. Can't say I've ever seen a ribbon. Good point.

I saw Criona Ni Dalaigh wearing one at the "Once is too Much" Exhibition in the NCAD. (Male violence against women ... and all that!)

Shaadi
08-12-2013, 08:36 PM
SgD

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/christopher-jackson/irish-can-learn-from-brit_b_4254301.html

You must have missed this article, pretty inflammatory boll** from the pen of a socialist .
It would naturally have escaped that "socialists" attention that the forces which had given us a genocide of an entire class of our own population 70 years before the Easter Rising were still running the show here in the revolutionary period in Ireland. Imagine the Nazis 70 years after the second World War still in power unrepentant for their sins and holding a population captive and then a "socialist" condemning those people for taking up arms to remove them. Carnival Of Reaction supporting scumbags like the author should just fess up and admit they are wacists who believe in the Whiteman's burden!

Saoirse go Deo
08-12-2013, 08:37 PM
I saw Criona Ni Dalaigh wearing one at the "Once is too Much" Exhibition in the NCAD. (Male violence against women ... and all that!)

Fair play to her

fluffybiscuits
09-12-2013, 05:26 PM
Saoirse ...... I have been selling Easter Lilies since 1962...... and like you I'm disgusted by the sight of a forest of Poppies ploncked on everyone who appears on the BBC, UTV and more often on RTE. They appears to be a kind of black-mailing of people into wearing the poppy by the media etc.

NOW HERE IS THE QUESTION ............ How do you feel about billions of people being black-mailed into wearing a red ribbon on World AIDS Day?

*sniggers*

Riposte were you on the mulled wine when you wrote that?