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Dr. FIVE
01-09-2012, 11:54 AM
http://socialistparty.net/component/content/article/3-newsflash/1030-clare-daly-resigns-from-the-socialist-party


On Friday 31 August Clare Daly TD handed in a letter of resignation to the Socialist Party. We feel obliged to give notice of this development and to offer some initial comments.

The Socialist Party sincerely regrets that after many years in our ranks, Clare Daly TD has decided to resign from the party.

Clare’s decision is a setback and undoubtedly will be met with surprise and shock from activists in the labour and trade union movement and on the left. However, it is a setback that the Socialist Party will recover from and the members of the party and its public representatives, including Paul Murphy MEP, Joe Higgins TD and our six councillors, will continue with our principled approach to campaigning and will continue to argue for the socialist alternative so desperately needed at this time of profound capitalist crisis.

This statement outlines the Socialist Party’s view as to why Clare Daly has taken this course of action. In our view, the fundamental reason for Clare’s resignation is that she now places more value on her political connection with Independent TD Mick Wallace than on the political positions and work of the Socialist Party.

Over the last number of months, Clare's political connection to Mick Wallace, who engaged in tax evasion and the falsification of VAT returns, has damaged her reputation but also, by implication, has potentially damaged the reputation of the Socialist Party.

Clare’s approach has unfortunately also given the establishment and sections of the media the opportunity to attempt to undermine the Campaign Against Household & Water Taxes (CAHWT), which is a vital campaign in the battle against the disastrous policies of austerity.

The Socialist Party condemned Mick Wallace's actions and demanded that he use whatever resources he has to pay the outstanding money immediately to the Revenue Commissioners. We did not go along with the chorus of demands for his immediate resignation. This was not because we in any way support Mick Wallace. It was because we think it is the place of voters, not the pro big business media to determine who should be a TD.

In contrast, Clare Daly offered political support to Mick Wallace despite the opposition of the Socialist Party to her acting in this way. Clare publicly vouched for Mick Wallace and his fitness for office, intervened on his behalf and consciously and consistently sat beside him in the Dáil which amounted to public political endorsement. Her actions and words were seized on by sections of the media to link the left in general and the Socialist Party in particular to Mick Wallace.

Clare refused to support or put her name to Socialist Party statements regarding Mick Wallace, including one which defended the party after he directly attacked the party and others on the left in the Dáil on 18 July.

Clare Daly's promotion of Mick Wallace in the anti-household tax campaign late last year and early this year, despite his tax evasion, was a reckless misjudgement. The CAHWT is opposed to Mick Wallace having any involvement in the Campaign and the Socialist Party supports this stance.

Since the start of June, leading members of the Socialist Party have repeatedly met and discussed with Clare in a genuine attempt to positively resolve these differences and limit the damage to all concerned. Unfortunately, Clare did not seriously engage in those discussions and ignored the advice offered.

Clare’s resignation reflects the fact that her actions and approach resulted in a complete breakdown in the political and working relations between her and the Socialist Party nationally, in the Dáil and between her and the branches of the Socialist Party in the Dublin North constituency.

This situation also reflected two aspects in Clare’s approach that unfortunately have become apparent since her election as a TD in February 2011.

Clare has tended to politically orientate to the Independent members of the Technical Group in the Dáil. This has gone beyond working on specific issues to build the strongest possible campaigns, which is an approach we agree with. In Clare’s case, it was also co-operation and collaboration of a broader political character with Independents instead of trying to build the profile of the United Left Alliance (ULA) and a new left movement on a principled left and socialist basis.

Clare has also not worked in a genuinely collective way with her colleagues in the Socialist Party. Instead, she has avoided democratic discussion as well as the democratic check and accountability of the party’s elected structures and members. Democratic discussion and the accountability of public representatives is essential in any party that claims to represent working class people.

We have no difficulty in recognising Clare’s many years of hard work, her outstanding record and the public esteem in which she is held. All of this was achieved as a Socialist Party activist. This makes the approach that she has adopted and her resignation from the party all the more disappointing for the many members who worked with her through the years and who also played an important role in achieving her election to the Dáil.

The Socialist Party is disappointed by this turn of events but it will not deter us from the tasks at hand.

The household tax, the property tax and the impending imposition of water charges pose unique opportunities for working class people to fight against austerity and potentially defeat this Government. This campaign is approaching a crucial point this autumn and the Socialist Party will do everything in its power to ensure that it is successful. In the North our members will continue to fight for working class unity and against sectarianism and we will continue to argue for a socialist alternative to sectarian politics and the misery of unemployment and poverty.

In these campaigns, in the ULA and generally, we will also redouble our efforts to win support for the genuine socialist policies that alone can end this capitalist crisis by using the wealth and resources of society for the benefit of the majority and not the super rich

goatstoe
01-09-2012, 12:03 PM
Splitter

Dr. FIVE
01-09-2012, 12:12 PM
Disaster for the SP. Think their statement reflects it.

Will be interesting to hear her side

Saoirse go Deo
01-09-2012, 12:32 PM
Looks like she enjoyed getting wined and dined by Mick Wallace in fancy restaurants too much... In fairness the socialist party have a point about her political stance in recent times. What is behind her carry on?

Bad news for the SP, good news for other parties on the left to have an increasingly popular group lose one of it's top people.

Holly
01-09-2012, 01:24 PM
Like other political parties, the Socialist Party cannot abide members with a mind of their own.

Baron von Biffo
01-09-2012, 01:27 PM
Nothing on her website yet and it still carries SP branding.

http://www.claredaly.ie/

Since the SP is in reality little more than a personal vehicle for Higgins this won't make any great difference other than the loss of her donations.

Spectabilis
01-09-2012, 01:42 PM
The statement of the SP on Clare Daly's resignation is at pains to point out (six times in the document) that it is not a personal but a political connection with Mick Wallace and Independents within the Technical Group that is the source of their differences.

The non-Wallace concerns are all political in nature - democracy, accountability.

It is difficult to disentangle the personal from the political but they have certainly tried to do so in the statement.






...This statement outlines the Socialist Party’s view as to why Clare Daly has taken this course of action. In our view, the fundamental reason for Clare’s resignation is that she now places more value on her political connection with Independent TD Mick Wallace than on the political positions and work of the Socialist Party.

Over the last number of months, Clare's political connection to Mick Wallace, who engaged in tax evasion and the falsification of VAT returns, has damaged her reputation but also, by implication, has potentially damaged the reputation of the Socialist Party.



In contrast, Clare Daly offered political support to Mick Wallace despite the opposition of the Socialist Party to her acting in this way. Clare publicly vouched for Mick Wallace and his fitness for office, intervened on his behalf and consciously and consistently sat beside him in the Dáil which amounted to public political endorsement. Her actions and words were seized on by sections of the media to link the left in general and the Socialist Party in particular to Mick Wallace.


Clare has tended to politically orientate to the Independent members of the Technical Group in the Dáil. This has gone beyond working on specific issues to build the strongest possible campaigns, which is an approach we agree with. In Clare’s case, it was also co-operation and collaboration of a broader political character with Independents instead of trying to build the profile of the United Left Alliance (ULA) and a new left movement on a principled left and socialist basis.

Dr. FIVE
01-09-2012, 01:58 PM
Tis a bit laughable trying to pin the lack ULA profile building on her tbh. She has probably been their best performer by very long way. Politically and PR wise. Perfectly understandable why they would want to continue putting distance between themselves Wallace but the tone of this statement seems to imply that all the problems are elsewhere.

Spectabilis
01-09-2012, 02:27 PM
She certainly has gained a very high profile politically. Unfortunately, even when she is arguing a case I support myself and making a good job of it, she sets my teeth on edge.

I don't think she will come out of this at all well with her constituency.

Maximus
01-09-2012, 02:49 PM
Will she go independent, set up another party or join another leftist party?

PaddyJoe
01-09-2012, 04:21 PM
I'm afraid that the SP can quote "political connection with Mick Wallace" until they are blue in the face but most people will assume that a personal connection with Mick Wallace is behind the resignation.

Dr. FIVE
01-09-2012, 04:37 PM
Significant financial implications here too with SP down a TD's salary (minus AIW..) and resources

culmore
01-09-2012, 04:49 PM
she will get to keep all her salery and allowances now and an extra €40.000, as an Independent TD, so much for our socialists, they are all the same when the trough is put out.

Baron von Biffo
01-09-2012, 04:59 PM
she will get to keep all her salery and allowances now and an extra €40.000, as an Independent TD, so much for our socialists, they are all the same when the trough is put out.



Unless of course Wallace is a petty bourgeois, neo-liberal, establishment, honey-trap. :D

Baron von Biffo
01-09-2012, 05:09 PM
Will she go independent, set up another party or join another leftist party?

Workers Alliance to Lead the Left Against Capitalism and Empires?

Dr. FIVE
01-09-2012, 05:12 PM
T
Unless of course Wallace is a petty bourgeois, neo-liberal, establishment, honey-trap. :D

lolz

MediaBite
01-09-2012, 05:17 PM
Statement from Clare Daly on her resignation at this link:

http://pastebin.com/1pmLaJyJ


Clare Daly TD today confirmed her resignation from the Socialist Party as of Friday 31st August.

"I can confirm that yesterday I resigned from the Socialist Party and redesignate myself as a United Left Alliance (ULA) TD. I believe it is time to prioritise the building of the ULA. The success of the Household Tax Campaign and the prospect of an intensification of vicious attacks on working people in the next budget makes the building of an alternative political force, that can present a real challenge to the establishment parties, an urgent priority”

Unfortunately the potential of the ULA has not been fully realised and it is now time that the component organisations prioritised the building of the ULA.

I note with some regret the inaccurate content of the Socialist Party statement issued today. I have no intention of engaging in a public war of words with the Socialist Party leadership. I am proud of my record as a Socialist Party activist and public representative, as a shop steward representing Aer Lingus workers and a campaigner with people across Dublin North and beyond.

I will continue with the same intensity and passion to represent and fight on behalf of working people inside and out of the Dail. I will be judged on my record over twenty five years and my future record.

I have the highest of regard for the members of the Socialist Party especially those past and present who worked tirelessly with me on numerous campaigns over the last 25 years. I hope to maintain good working relations with Socialist Party members and look forward to working together as ULA members.

I will be working closely with those who have made a priority of building the ULA and offer my support and assistance to branches and members in developing the ULA nationally. I hope to see a large number of ULA candidates running in the local elections.

I will also continue to support all those fighting austerity. A real movement of people power needs to be built to stop the wave of attacks on ordinary working people."

Dr. FIVE
01-09-2012, 05:18 PM
Staying with the ULA

Baron von Biffo
01-09-2012, 05:21 PM
Can she unilaterally decide to become a ULA TD?

Reading their stuff they seem to need a dozen committees, discussion groups and conferences just to decide whether to use paper-clips or staples so something like accepting a TD should take about a generation to process.

Spectabilis
01-09-2012, 05:23 PM
More like a declaration of candidacy to be leader of the ULA.

"I will be working closely with those who have made a priority of building the ULA and offer my support and assistance to branches and members in developing the ULA nationally."

Baron von Biffo
01-09-2012, 05:24 PM
More like a declaration of candidacy to be leader of the ULA.

"I will be working closely with those who have made a priority of building the ULA and offer my support and assistance to branches and members in developing the ULA nationally."

Higgins and Boyd-Barrett will definitely agree to that. :)

TotalMayhem
01-09-2012, 05:38 PM
Page 2 already??

Stop wasting so much unwarranted attention on a quitter. ;)

Kev Bar
01-09-2012, 05:45 PM
Cld do with an opinionated partner with a good salary.

Hair already greying.

Anyone got a loan of a pink shirt?

Saoirse go Deo
01-09-2012, 05:53 PM
I'm afraid that the SP can quote "political connection with Mick Wallace" until they are blue in the face but most people will assume that a personal connection with Mick Wallace is behind the resignation.
Indeed.

Baron von Biffo
01-09-2012, 06:06 PM
She's been excised from the SP party home page.

http://i47.tinypic.com/5vsqab.jpg

Spectabilis
01-09-2012, 06:38 PM
I understand that Brian Greene, an SP party activist in Dublin North Central has tweeted that he resigned from the SP also - yesterday at 3 pm. My Twitter machine refuses to work (because the Boss dislikes it). Any confirmation?

Kev Bar
01-09-2012, 06:50 PM
She's been excised from the SP party home page.

http://i47.tinypic.com/5vsqab.jpg

How very Trotsky.

Kev Bar
01-09-2012, 06:59 PM
Unless of course Wallace is a petty bourgeois, neo-liberal, establishment, honey-trap. :D

Being an erudite chap, I don't frequent hair-dressers and am not up to speed on all the latest salacious tales from the likes of Ireland's Hello - Dia Dhuit?- so could yourself and PJ stand up like the bold Irish men you are and tell me whether I am missing out on something.

There is an expression of admiration in Ms Daly's eyes as she gazes at the pink shirted grey locks.

But what's the story with the SP...are you not allowed fratnerise with the ...eh...enemy?

Does Joe have to endorse a coupling?

TotalMayhem
01-09-2012, 07:07 PM
How very Trotsky.

There is that old conflict again. Clare Daly has chosen Stalin's tactic: keep your friends close and your enemies closer. :D

Kev Bar
01-09-2012, 07:14 PM
Spotted a very large malcontent, curiously wrapped up in a fine duck down duvet, clutching a tin of tar.

Saoirse go Deo
01-09-2012, 07:33 PM
So, putting it crudely, reckon they're seeing each other?

Dr. FIVE
01-09-2012, 07:38 PM
Putting it crudely, I dont think it's anyone's business

Dr. FIVE
01-09-2012, 07:40 PM
I understand that Brian Greene, an SP party activist in Dublin North Central has tweeted that he resigned from the SP also - yesterday at 3 pm. My Twitter machine refuses to work (because the Boss dislikes it). Any confirmation?


As of 3pm Friday I am no longer a member of the socialist party. I resigned after 16 years with the party. At CAHWT meeting all afternoon.

also his brother after 21 years.

Not because of Daly he says

Saoirse go Deo
01-09-2012, 07:56 PM
Putting it crudely, I dont think it's anyone's business
Perhaps.


I'm sure it'll all come out however, one way or another. She didn't comment on Wallace at all in her statement which is a disappointment.

I don't see any sense in her having a "political connection" with the toxic Wallace. She has damaged her party and campaigns.

C. Flower
01-09-2012, 08:27 PM
There have clearly been serious political problems in the Socialist Party for some time.
The Party has relentlessly chanelled all of its resources into a single issue campaign, based on a successful protest campaign carried out many years ago and in completely different political and economic conditions. The Socialist Party, having taken part in the step of intiating the ULA, have
turned away from building it, and the planned ULA Summer School was cancelled recently. A lot of very genuine individuals who joined the ULA from outside of the political parties were being left high and dry. Clare Daly didn't at least in public seem to have any problem with any of this.

Rather than take her difficulties up in the Socialist Party and ULA and debate them there, she has taken what looks like an opportunistic side step to claim to be a ULA (Indendent) TD.

The SP as a whole it seemed to me were tending to work generally uncritically with some members of the Technical Group who have nothing to do with socialism, were relying too much on Parliamentary work and resources, and were putting all their political eggs in the basket of the Household Tax campaign, when the situation demands much broader work organising against cuts, and to put forward an alternative economic platform. I've written about these issues a good number of times over the last year.

A break has come according to the Socialist Party because whereas the Socialist Party as a whole, although slow, had acted to distance itself from Wallace, in the light of his actions with regard to non payment of VAT, Clare Daly has no wish to do so. Clare Daly says that the break has come because she wants to build the ULA. She had every opportunity at the last ULA Conference to make this clear, but didn't give a hint of it. She could have fought it out internally, in the ULA and SP. If she did, perhaps people will come forward and confirm it.

If she is only using the ULA as a political vehicle, because no longer welcome in the SP, then it seems that she not only has damaged the Socialist Party, but now is set to damage the ULA. She appears to have moved to the right. A debacle, and one I am sad about.



A real movement of people power needs to be built to stop the wave of attacks on ordinary working people."


Very true, but after this, I don't see that Clare Daly is going to be someone who will be in the leadership of any such movement.

Serious for the left and for everyone who wants something other than FF/FG Ireland. The Government must be laughing.

Saoirse go Deo
01-09-2012, 08:37 PM
I imagine SF must be pleased, people will be turned away from both the SP and the ULA over this, to the welcome left alternative of SF.

ULA etc voters (not die hard members) in my experience tend to be quite sympathetic to SF but voted ULA instead because of lingering niggling at their conscience over the IRA. It won't take much to bring them over.

5intheface
01-09-2012, 08:40 PM
Perhaps.


I'm sure it'll all come out however, one way or another. She didn't comment on Wallace at all in her statement which is a disappointment.

I don't see any sense in her having a "political connection" with the toxic Wallace. She has damaged her party and campaigns.

Who knows what the set-up is?

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv296/6intheface_2009/daly.jpg

TotalMayhem
01-09-2012, 08:47 PM
Not because of Daly he says

Is he dating Mick?

Kev Bar
01-09-2012, 10:11 PM
Putting it crudely, I dont think it's anyone's business


Of course it's not anyone's fooking business.

But is it true?:D

Kev Bar
01-09-2012, 10:15 PM
Perhaps.


I'm sure it'll all come out however, one way or another. She didn't comment on Wallace at all in her statement which is a disappointment.

I don't see any sense in her having a "political connection" with the toxic Wallace. She has damaged her party and campaigns.

On the scale you are using I was just wondering that if Wallace is toxic, what do we call our British Republican Priory Hall geezer?

Ignoring the whole morality gig, just want to get the linguistic sus.

Mick Tully
01-09-2012, 11:18 PM
It is a good move by her to get away from those backwoods men. The pinkos are in the past.

Baron von Biffo
01-09-2012, 11:29 PM
If she is only using the ULA as a political vehicle, because no longer welcome in the SP, then it seems that she not only has damaged the Socialist Party, but now is set to damage the ULA.

Let's be honest here, the ULA is just an armistice between the SP and the SWP/PBPA and that boils down to Higgins and Boyd-Barrett. It's not and will never be allowed to be, a serious political movement.

Baron von Biffo
01-09-2012, 11:35 PM
I imagine SF must be pleased, people will be turned away from both the SP and the ULA over this, to the welcome left alternative of SF.

ULA etc voters (not die hard members) in my experience tend to be quite sympathetic to SF but voted ULA instead because of lingering niggling at their conscience over the IRA. It won't take much to bring them over.

The ULA would have picked up a chunk of the ABFF vote like the others. Given that it has nothing to offer but populist posturing it vote probably came from the unthinking end of the electorate - People who may never have voted in the past and may never vote again when Higgins et al didn't sweep away all their problems once they were elected.

There's not likely to be too much for SF, or anyone else, when the dust settles.

PaddyJoe
01-09-2012, 11:57 PM
No malice to anyone here but Clare Daly looked happy and confident and well on her last couple of appearances on de telly box recently. There isn't exactly an overflowing well of left people putting together any kind of coherent argument on de TV or wireless these days.
Good luck to her:)

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 12:03 AM
No malice to anyone here but Clare Daly looked happy and confident and well on her last couple of appearances on de telly box recently.

Interesting observation. She was positively bouncy on the news earlier, in contrast to Higgins who couldn't have looked more miserable if he found out his missus had paid the Household Charge.

Kev Bar
02-09-2012, 12:09 AM
Interesting observation. She was positively bouncy on the news earlier, in contrast to Higgins who couldn't have looked more miserable if he found out his missus had paid the Household Charge.

:D

Doubt he would trust the Missus.

In fact Joe looks like a man who has a hard time with trust.

Perhaps with some reason.

PaddyJoe
02-09-2012, 12:13 AM
:D

Doubt he would trust the Missus.

In fact Joe looks like a man who has a hard time with trust.

Perhaps with some reason.

Hard to get over those couple of years in Maynooth.
I have a theory that the Church always marks you no matter how much you think you've escaped....
The Jesuits only ever wanted the first seven:)

Kev Bar
02-09-2012, 12:19 AM
Hard to get over those couple of years in Maynooth.
I have a theory that the Church always marks you no matter how much you think you've escaped....
The Jesuits only ever wanted the first seven:)

I didn't know any of that.

Met him at a Village magazine party a couple of years back.

And said it felt like talking to an earnest but admirable Irish missionary in Africa.

PaddyJoe
02-09-2012, 12:25 AM
I didn't know any of that.

Met him at a Village magazine party a couple of years back.

And said it felt like talking to an earnest but admirable Irish missionary in Africa.

There you go..them dastardly Jesuits even got our Marxists:)

Shaadi
02-09-2012, 12:27 AM
Interesting observation. She was positively bouncy on the news earlier, in contrast to Higgins who couldn't have looked more miserable if he found out his missus had paid the Household Charge.Joe's demeanour had nothing to do with the Daly resignation. It was the result of a meeting he had with a potential new member called Fluffybiscuits. Fluffy being a freespirit refused to sit down and listen to Joe, insisting that Joe listen to all the new ideas that his online buddies had. Joe emerged from the meeting in a confused state and hasn't been himself since.

The Moth
02-09-2012, 12:29 AM
Cld do with an opinionated partner with a good salary.

Hair already greying.

Anyone got a loan of a pink shirt?

And a vineyard!:p

PaddyJoe
02-09-2012, 12:33 AM
Joe's demeanour had nothing to do with the Daly resignation. It was the result of a meeting he had with a potential new member called Fluffybiscuits. Fluffy being a freespirit refused to sit down and listen to Joe, insisting that Joe listen to all the new ideas that his online buddies had. Joe emerged from the meeting in a confused state and hasn't been himself since.
Good un.
:D

Kev Bar
02-09-2012, 12:37 AM
Joe's demeanour had nothing to do with the Daly resignation. It was the result of a meeting he had with a potential new member called Fluffybiscuits. Fluffy being a freespirit refused to sit down and listen to Joe, insisting that Joe listen to all the new ideas that his online buddies had. Joe emerged from the meeting in a confused state and hasn't been himself since.

I hope that's true.

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 01:39 AM
There have clearly been serious political problems in the Socialist Party for some time.
The Party has relentlessly chanelled all of its resources into a single issue campaign, based on a successful protest campaign carried out many years ago and in completely different political and economic conditions. The Socialist Party, having taken part in the step of intiating the ULA, have
turned away from building it, and the planned ULA Summer School was cancelled recently. A lot of very genuine individuals who joined the ULA from outside of the political parties were being left high and dry. Clare Daly didn't at least in public seem to have any problem with any of this.

Rather than take her difficulties up in the Socialist Party and ULA and debate them there, she has taken what looks like an opportunistic side step to claim to be a ULA (Indendent) TD.

The SP as a whole it seemed to me were tending to work generally uncritically with some members of the Technical Group who have nothing to do with socialism, were relying too much on Parliamentary work and resources, and were putting all their political eggs in the basket of the Household Tax campaign, when the situation demands much broader work organising against cuts, and to put forward an alternative economic platform. I've written about these issues a good number of times over the last year.

A break has come according to the Socialist Party because whereas the Socialist Party as a whole, although slow, had acted to distance itself from Wallace, in the light of his actions with regard to non payment of VAT, Clare Daly has no wish to do so. Clare Daly says that the break has come because she wants to build the ULA. She had every opportunity at the last ULA Conference to make this clear, but didn't give a hint of it. She could have fought it out internally, in the ULA and SP. If she did, perhaps people will come forward and confirm it.

If she is only using the ULA as a political vehicle, because no longer welcome in the SP, then it seems that she not only has damaged the Socialist Party, but now is set to damage the ULA. She appears to have moved to the right. A debacle, and one I am sad about.



Very true, but after this, I don't see that Clare Daly is going to be someone who will be in the leadership of any such movement.

Serious for the left and for everyone who wants something other than FF/FG Ireland. The Government must be laughing.

Been a long drive home from the CAHWT meeting in Dublin -

While I wouldn't agree with everything in your comments - there are some statements that I consider hit the nail on the head.

Holly
02-09-2012, 02:03 AM
Unlike Fine Gwael, Labour, and the almost defunct Fianna Fail parties who get their votes from party loyalists, the so-called Socialist Party is too puny to be considered a proper political party and like the United Left Alliance, members get votes because of the candidates personal perceived strengths. Clare Daly will top the poll in the next Dublin North Central election. As parties go, the wild card is now Sinn Féin which looks and acts like a regular mainstream socialist party instead of a couple of Marxist bookworms fixated in 19th century polemics.

MediaBite
02-09-2012, 02:45 AM
Don't see any reason why Clare Daly should not have a solid future as an Independent left wing candidate for the ULA. There can be no question of her 'using' the platform which she has done at least much as anyone else to build - and a lot more than most. Agree she's made a bad political misjudgment over Mick Wallace, but it would be grossly unfair to her for that to be the thing that now mostly/exclusively defines her contribution to political life. The last 25 or 30 years surely continue to entitle her to a lot of respect and trust and can't just be written off. Daly seems to be as committed as ever to the principles she's stood by all along.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 10:44 AM
Joe's demeanour had nothing to do with the Daly resignation. It was the result of a meeting he had with a potential new member called Fluffybiscuits. Fluffy being a freespirit refused to sit down and listen to Joe, insisting that Joe listen to all the new ideas that his online buddies had. Joe emerged from the meeting in a confused state and hasn't been himself since.

:D

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 11:02 AM
No malice to anyone here but Clare Daly looked happy and confident and well on her last couple of appearances on de telly box recently. There isn't exactly an overflowing well of left people putting together any kind of coherent argument on de TV or wireless these days.
Good luck to her:)

I think at the moment we are seeing a general swing to the Right across Europe. The left is relatively in disarray. It is not a comfortable time - the end of the long boom is really the end of protest politics. There are no giveaways to be got these days, to be had just for the asking.

The left has a lot of rebuilding to do.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 11:03 AM
Don't see any reason why Clare Daly should not have a solid future as an Independent left wing candidate for the ULA. There can be no question of her 'using' the platform which she has done at least much as anyone else to build - and a lot more than most.

In another thread recently it was said that the SWP was more like a cult than a proper party. The SP wouldn't be much different. Daly has committed the worst sin imaginable by leaving the cult so the other members will be out to damage her.

We don't know yet if she'll be allowed to remain in the ULA but if she is she's not likely to have a happy time of it.


Agree she's made a bad political misjudgment over Mick Wallace, but it would be grossly unfair to her for that to be the thing that now mostly/exclusively defines her contribution to political life. The last 25 or 30 years surely continue to entitle her to a lot of respect and trust and can't just be written off. Daly seems to be as committed as ever to the principles she's stood by all along.

Fair doesn't come into it. Politics is raw, bitter and vicious. Daly can expect her erstwhile colleagues to spin against her and undermine her from now on. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the SP ran a candidate against her at the next GE.

Shaadi
02-09-2012, 11:26 AM
I think at the moment we are seeing a general swing to the Right across Europe. The left is relatively in disarray. It is not a comfortable time - the end of the long boom is really the end of protest politics. There are no giveaways to be got these days, to be had just for the asking.

The left has a lot of rebuilding to do.There'll be no giveaways for at least a decade here. There'll be an awful lot of taking away to be done and that's where the left's opportunity for growth lies. We haven't seen the really painful and politically damaging cuts yet. The Troika and the Irish establishment have a Thatcherite agenda, that's a recipe for class warfare and that's exactly what we're going to get. If the left can't ride that wave, then what the hell is the point in having them?

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 11:28 AM
[QUOTE=Baron von Biffo;272840]In another thread recently it was said that the SWP was more like a cult than a proper party. The SP wouldn't be much different. Daly has committed the worst sin imaginable by leaving the cult so the other members will be out to damage her.

Unlike the "mainstream parties" in which most resignations are cynical ploys to make populist gestures locally, while on the qt remaining part of the old gang.


We don't know yet if she'll be allowed to remain in the ULA but if she is she's not likely to have a happy time of it.

The ULA is a broad left alliance. Whose to know what will happen to it ?


Fair doesn't come into it. Politics is raw, bitter and vicious. Daly can expect her erstwhile colleagues to spin against her and undermine her from now on. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the SP ran a candidate against her at the next GE.

It's healthy to thrash out political disagreement. The worst eventuality I can see is for cosy relations to be maintained, so that various seats, positions, technical groups, and etc. can keep their associated benefits.

MediaBite
02-09-2012, 11:39 AM
In another thread recently it was said that the SWP was more like a cult than a proper party. The SP wouldn't be much different. Daly has committed the worst sin imaginable by leaving the cult so the other members will be out to damage her.

We don't know yet if she'll be allowed to remain in the ULA but if she is she's not likely to have a happy time of it.



Fair doesn't come into it. Politics is raw, bitter and vicious. Daly can expect her erstwhile colleagues to spin against her and undermine her from now on. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the SP ran a candidate against her at the next GE.

Yep. All the parties are crippled by the whip system and individual pols gagged from going off message, but none are more cultish and unforgiving than the left groups. You are simply not allowed to register the mildest dissent without being viewed with extreme suspicion. It's unworkable with and why there is this constant lack of unity - although the ULA itself is a serious effort to overcome the disunity that is working quite well. The enmities within the left are more bitter than between the left and the right? As if 'being correct' is thought to be something you can define in its entirety at any point in time. Also, to be seen to agree with the least thing anyone outside the left says will get you in hot water too (although what on earth is going on in Daly's head about Wallace can only be surmised at as yet. The obvious suggestion suggests itself :-) ) It's often oppressive and unpleasant.

There are in-groups and cliques all over it too, but the left don't have a monopoly on that! Maybe the left is worse in this respect because it's been out in the cold for so long? It makes you despair though, that no matter what is done to the country in the name of repairing the economy, the mere mention of the word socialism still has people almost willing to offer their own children as a sacrifice in order to avoid it.

Sam Lord
02-09-2012, 12:02 PM
If Daly left the SP for the political reasons she stated then she has shifted to the right as CF has pointed out.

If she left because of a relationship with Wallace, as the SP has suggested, then she has allowed emotion to overcome political judgement.

Either possibility reflects badly on her in my opinion.

Having said that she is not the worst denizen of Dail Eireann (in fact she would be better than most) and there is no reason that the ULA should not hang onto her. If the SP is serious about building the ULA (leaving aside the reasonable doubts on that matter) it will have to demonstrate maturity and work with her on a non-antagonistic basis. For a party to lose someone, even an important person, as a result of upholding a matter of principle is not the worst thing in the world. The SP can console itself that of the two it has come out looking better. It might be best served by, at this stage, forgetting their common history and just treating her as an independent ULA TD.

At the same time it might not be a bad thing for any SP activists (presuming that there are such) who are committed to revolutionary politics to consider what it might be in the culture or politics of their organisation that would permit a long standing and leading member, educated in the Party, to make the sort of political decisions Daly has since being elected to the Dail. They might also reflect on the meltdowns that have occured in other trotskyite parties on attaining some level of electoral success.

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 12:08 PM
At the same time it might not be a bad thing for any SP activists (presuming that there are such) who are committed to revolutionary politics to consider what it might be in the culture or politics of their organisation that would permit a long standing and leading member, educated in the Party, to make the sort of political decisions Daly has since being elected to the Dail. They might also reflect on the meltdowns that have occured in other trotskyite parties on attaining some level of electoral success.
Yawn - SL - master of the irrelevent political dig. :rolleyes:

antiestablishmentarian
02-09-2012, 12:39 PM
Yep. All the parties are crippled by the whip system and individual pols gagged from going off message, but none are more cultish and unforgiving than the left groups. You are simply not allowed to register the mildest dissent without being viewed with extreme suspicion. It's unworkable with and why there is this constant lack of unity - although the ULA itself is a serious effort to overcome the disunity that is working quite well. The enmities within the left are more bitter than between the left and the right? As if 'being correct' is thought to be something you can define in its entirety at any point in time. Also, to be seen to agree with the least thing anyone outside the left says will get you in hot water too (although what on earth is going on in Daly's head about Wallace can only be surmised at as yet. The obvious suggestion suggests itself :-) ) It's often oppressive and unpleasant.

There are in-groups and cliques all over it too, but the left don't have a monopoly on that! Maybe the left is worse in this respect because it's been out in the cold for so long? It makes you despair though, that no matter what is done to the country in the name of repairing the economy, the mere mention of the word socialism still has people almost willing to offer their own children as a sacrifice in order to avoid it.

One thing about being a member of a small left wing party such as the SP is that it is far more intense, emotionally, personally and socially, than being a member of another more mainstream party. You eat sleep and breathe politics, with most active members committing to a minimum of three activities a week, including branch meetings which often can go on for hours, stalls, newspaper sales or other community meetings. The fact that you spend so much time with other activists makes it a primary social outlet for many members, with commanding personalities having a more prominent role in a smaller organisation than corresponding figures in larger parties. When you invest so much of yourself in something, it goes without saying that it can consume you, and correspondingly the anger, bitterness or tensions which follow an event like Daly leaving can lead to very messy situations.

MediaBite
02-09-2012, 01:09 PM
Clare Daly is going to be on RTE This Week shortly fyi

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 01:12 PM
Unlike the "mainstream parties" in which most resignations are cynical ploys to make populist gestures locally, while on the qt remaining part of the old gang.

:confused:

Are you saying that it's good that her former colleagues will try to nobble Daly?


The ULA is a broad left alliance. Whose to know what will happen to it ?

Flathan gave me a loan of a crystal ball so I can predict that the ULA will limp along for so long as it serves its purpose of maintaining an armed truce between Higgins and Boyd-Barrett.


It's healthy to thrash out political disagreement. The worst eventuality I can see is for cosy relations to be maintained, so that various seats, positions, technical groups, and etc. can keep their associated benefits.

Political disagreement is one thing, running a spoiler candidate against Daly is another.

Kev Bar
02-09-2012, 01:16 PM
Yep. All the parties are crippled by the whip system and individual pols gagged from going off message, but none are more cultish and unforgiving than the left groups. You are simply not allowed to register the mildest dissent without being viewed with extreme suspicion. It's unworkable with and why there is this constant lack of unity - although the ULA itself is a serious effort to overcome the disunity that is working quite well. The enmities within the left are more bitter than between the left and the right? As if 'being correct' is thought to be something you can define in its entirety at any point in time. Also, to be seen to agree with the least thing anyone outside the left says will get you in hot water too (although what on earth is going on in Daly's head about Wallace can only be surmised at as yet. The obvious suggestion suggests itself :-) ) It's often oppressive and unpleasant.

There are in-groups and cliques all over it too, but the left don't have a monopoly on that! Maybe the left is worse in this respect because it's been out in the cold for so long? It makes you despair though, that no matter what is done to the country in the name of repairing the economy, the mere mention of the word socialism still has people almost willing to offer their own children as a sacrifice in order to avoid it.

See you're enjoying the sunshine

MediaBite
02-09-2012, 01:33 PM
See you're enjoying the sunshine

I'm not getting it - what you mean?

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 01:38 PM
"I fully supported the SP position that his company under declared VAT" (My emphasis) - Daly.

See the thing is Clare, it was Tricky Mickey, as a director of the business, who made the false declaration.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 01:40 PM
She reckons Joe Higgins is a man of the past. :)

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 01:41 PM
"A little bit of girl power is a good thing" - Daly.

Lovely, another sexist TD is just what we need.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 01:43 PM
She certainly didn't do herself any favours there. Demanding that she be paid half of the SP leaders allowance is just plain daft.

Garibaldy
02-09-2012, 01:58 PM
baron,

Are your recent posts quotes from the RTÉ radio interview or something?

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 02:04 PM
Yep. All the parties are crippled by the whip system and individual pols gagged from going off message, but none are more cultish and unforgiving than the left groups. You are simply not allowed to register the mildest dissent without being viewed with extreme suspicion. It's unworkable with and why there is this constant lack of unity - although the ULA itself is a serious effort to overcome the disunity that is working quite well. The enmities within the left are more bitter than between the left and the right? As if 'being correct' is thought to be something you can define in its entirety at any point in time. Also, to be seen to agree with the least thing anyone outside the left says will get you in hot water too (although what on earth is going on in Daly's head about Wallace can only be surmised at as yet. The obvious suggestion suggests itself :-) ) It's often oppressive and unpleasant.

Left parties are more like religious sects than normal political parties. Differences that are undetectable to those on the outside assume enormous significance to the faithful. Great effort is wasted on putting down heresy rather than working for the people they purport to represent.


There are in-groups and cliques all over it too, but the left don't have a monopoly on that! Maybe the left is worse in this respect because it's been out in the cold for so long? It makes you despair though, that no matter what is done to the country in the name of repairing the economy, the mere mention of the word socialism still has people almost willing to offer their own children as a sacrifice in order to avoid it.

The PDs were just an FF splinter group formed out of a personality clash but that didn't stop them working with FF to achieve as much of their odious agenda as was possible.

Imagine for a moment that the SP had 6 TDs who could impose a PD level of control on a coalition government - Would they take the opportunity or would they skulk away to preserve their political purity? No prizes for guessing the answer to that.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 02:05 PM
baron,

Are your recent posts quotes from the RTÉ radio interview or something?

Yes.

Apologies, I should have made clear that I was commenting on her interview on RTEs This Week programme.

riposte
02-09-2012, 02:19 PM
My own opinion is the SP panicked. Yes, the Mick Wallace thing damaged the Technical Group .... and the left wing TDs in particular.

But these things are a one day wonder. Does anyone here remember the apparent meltdown for Sinn Fein arising from The McCartney Sisters? Adams said ... in any game you lose control some of the time ... you can't have the ball at your feet throughout the whole game.

Not panicking is a very important component in success.

In worrying about what people will think of them because they were seen sitting beside Mick Wallace .... they forgot to calculate the damage a split would result in.

Marriage may temporary ...... but Splits are forever.

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 02:31 PM
The Socialist Party are holding a press conference this afternoon that will address the issues around the resignation of Clare Daly from the party.

riposte
02-09-2012, 02:42 PM
The Socialist Party are holding a press conference this afternoon that will address the issues around the resignation of Clare Daly from the party.

Shows there's a grain on truth in the phrase "there's no such thing as bad publicity." I guess this will be the biggest press conference held by the Socialist Party since Lenin was a boy.

MediaBite
02-09-2012, 03:02 PM
It wasn't credible, to say the least, for Clare Daly to claim that the Mick Wallace tax avoidance affair had nothing to do with her resignation - as she did on RTE This Week this morning. She owes a lot of unhappy, disappointed people who voted for her a proper explanation for her stance on that and she has not given it. This was the time for her to make a definitive statement and she turned out instead on RTE This Week in an inappropriately breezy state of near flippancy. Most likely because it's actually impossible for her to defend her loyalty to Wallace. She's not wrong that the SP have been reluctant and suspicious ULA participants. However, a lot of us who've been watching her will well recollect her part in defending the SP's hyper-cautious attitude to cooperation with other left wing parties. Mick Wallace was/is the game changer in Daly's political life. No doubt about that.

Daly needed to demonstrate political maturity and honesty about all of this today and she's ended up doing the opposite. She has been one of the left's most valuable and effective representatives but, depending on what she does and says next in the vanishingly small window of opportunity available to her, her political career is poised to collapse.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 03:10 PM
She has been one of the left's most valuable and effective representatives

Has that played any part in this story I wonder. Recently she's had a much higher profile than Higgins who's pretty much gone to ground since the expenses scandal broke.

Poor political prospects after upstaging Uncle Joe has historical resonances. :)

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 03:15 PM
The Socialist Party are holding a press conference this afternoon that will address the issues around the resignation of Clare Daly from the party.

Are you allowed to express a personal opinion on the story before the official line is broadcast?

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 03:52 PM
There'll be no giveaways for at least a decade here. There'll be an awful lot of taking away to be done and that's where the left's opportunity for growth lies. We haven't seen the really painful and politically damaging cuts yet. The Troika and the Irish establishment have a Thatcherite agenda, that's a recipe for class warfare and that's exactly what we're going to get. If the left can't ride that wave, then what the hell is the point in having them?

Exactly. But the sort of people who will take this on are not necessarily those who have been accustomed to the relative comforts of political life over the last 20 years - and if some of those are able and willing to shift into real battle mode, understandably it will not be without some political pain and a period of confusion and adjustment.

What we need is an attitude that says "bring it on" and that organises with a view to the long term and big change. The right may be on top, temporarily, but they are standing on the biggest house of cards ever seen on the planet.

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 04:06 PM
Are you allowed to express a personal opinion on the story before the official line is broadcast?

I have discussed the situation with members of the Socialist Party National Committee on several occasions. The situation has been discussed at severa meetings of my local Socialist Party branch and I have expressed my opinions there. I am not going to feed your curiosity so you can simply gossip on the internet.

Personally I have known Clare Daly since she joined the Socialist Party and would have considered her a friend during all the time since. I am very disappointed that she has resigned from the Socialist Party. However, I believe she has repeatedly made a series of political mistakes in her support for Wallace and I fully support the position as stated by the National Committee of the Socialist Party.

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 04:10 PM
The Socialist Party are holding a press conference this afternoon that will address the issues around the resignation of Clare Daly from the party.

Would you know when, and where ?

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 04:17 PM
Would you know when, and where ?

Not in Dublin so don't know where - I believe its due to start at 4.30pm

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Not in Dublin so don't know where - I believe its due to start at 4.30pm

Thanks.

Reck-less
02-09-2012, 04:40 PM
"... although what on earth is going on in Daly's head about Wallace can only be surmised at as yet. The obvious suggestion suggests itself :-) "


... and the man is a capitalist, an arch-capitalist at that.

Oh, the ignominy of it all!

Kev Bar
02-09-2012, 04:46 PM
I'm not getting it - what you mean?

Merely alluding to yr wit

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 07:12 PM
I have discussed the situation with members of the Socialist Party National Committee on several occasions. The situation has been discussed at severa meetings of my local Socialist Party branch and I have expressed my opinions there. I am not going to feed your curiosity so you can simply gossip on the internet.

Personally I have known Clare Daly since she joined the Socialist Party and would have considered her a friend during all the time since. I am very disappointed that she has resigned from the Socialist Party. However, I believe she has repeatedly made a series of political mistakes in her support for Wallace and I fully support the position as stated by the National Committee of the Socialist Party.

That's a 'no' then. ;)

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 07:12 PM
Joe Higgins has indicated that the Socialist Party will not be giving half the party allowance to Clare Daly but will be writing to the Dept of Finance requesting that they provide funds to the Socialist Party commensurate with the allowance for a party with one TD and return the difference to the Exchequer.

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 07:13 PM
That's a 'no' then. ;)

It's actually a 'mind your own bloody business you nosey *****'

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 07:17 PM
It's actually a 'mind your own bloody business you nosey *****'

Just trying to discuss political matters on a political discussion group.

Your tetchiness on the subject is very revealing though. ;)

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 07:19 PM
Joe Higgins has indicated that the Socialist Party will not be giving half the party allowance to Clare Daly but will be writing to the Dept of Finance requesting that they provide funds to the Socialist Party commensurate with the allowance for a party with one TD and return the difference to the Exchequer.

As an independent she'll be able to claim a €41k leaders allowance so she won't be stuck for a few bob.

Saoirse go Deo
02-09-2012, 07:21 PM
I'm sure Sinn Féin are delighted at this split, hopefully it gets more nasty and the slim prospect of the ULA etc building an alternate left movement is utterly destroyed. This is a major setback, don't know if it will be able to recover from it, seen as things were not in great shape beforehand.

Saoirse go Deo
02-09-2012, 07:21 PM
As an independent she'll be able to claim a €41k leaders allowance so she won't be stuck for a few bob.
But she wasn't elected as an independent?

I think that may be a factor in getting the allowance (at least it should be).

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 07:27 PM
But she wasn't elected as an independent?

I think that may be a factor in getting the allowance (at least it should be).

It is -

And Biffo - you don't do political discussion, you do gossip and innuendo.

5intheface
02-09-2012, 07:31 PM
But she wasn't elected as an independent?

I think that may be a factor in getting the allowance (at least it should be).

Political parties in the Republic of Ireland are entitled to state funding via:
 Electoral Acts
 The Party Leaders’ Allowance
To qualify for funding under the Electoral Acts, a party must be on the register of
political parties and must have obtained at least 2% of the first preference vote at the
last Dail general election. Independent TDs cannot avail of this funding and the current
People Before Profit and Socialist Party TDs are similarly excluded as they did not
meet the 2% threshold. Technical groups cannot qualify as they are not registered as
political parties.
Members of the technical group receive funding under the Party Leaders’ Allowance.
However, they would receive this money even if they were not part of the technical
group. Under the scheme each Independent TD is entitled to an allowance of €41,152
and each TD that is a member of a qualifying party with less than ten members
receives an allowance of €71,520. At this time this includes the People before Profit
and Socialist Party TDs in the technical group. The money allocated under the scheme
is to compensate for the fact that they have no party support and resources to call
upon.
4
Furthermore, the Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Secretarial
Facilities) Regulations 2008 sets out the basis for levels of staffing and resource
allocations to qualifying parties. No mention of technical groups is made and they
receive no additional allocation under these regulations.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 07:43 PM
But she wasn't elected as an independent?

I think that may be a factor in getting the allowance (at least it should be).

The section of the act posted by 5intheface suggests otherwise. While I'm opposed to the system of 'leaders' allowances for independents I can't see any sound reason to deny them to those who leave a party in the life of a Dail.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 07:44 PM
It is -

And Biffo - you don't do political discussion, you do gossip and innuendo.

I do political discussion that makes you uncomfortable so you react by having these little sulks.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 07:52 PM
each TD that is a member of a qualifying party with less than ten members receives an allowance of €71,520. At this time this includes the People before Profit and Socialist Party TDs in the technical group.

It would seem from that that Daly and Higgins each got €71k for being members of a party with less than 10 members. Now that Daly has gone, Higgins should still get that because he's in a party but Daly will be dropped to €41 as an independent.

Hard to know why Higgins will be writing to the Dept of Finance since the SP isn't in receipt of a party allowance as it got less than 2% of the vote so there's nothing to reduce. Just another empty stunt to try to regain some of the ground lost following the expenses scandal perhaps.

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 08:33 PM
My own opinion is the SP panicked. Yes, the Mick Wallace thing damaged the Technical Group .... and the left wing TDs in particular.

But these things are a one day wonder. Does anyone here remember the apparent meltdown for Sinn Fein arising from The McCartney Sisters? Adams said ... in any game you lose control some of the time ... you can't have the ball at your feet throughout the whole game.

Not panicking is a very important component in success.

In worrying about what people will think of them because they were seen sitting beside Mick Wallace .... they forgot to calculate the damage a split would result in.

Marriage may temporary ...... but Splits are forever.

I take your point that the public can be forgiving and forgetting of party scandals and embarrassments, over time, but what about the damage done, in the long term, by the repeated compromises and political fudges ?
It seems to me that Clare Daly has shifted her position and resigned from the Socialist Party. That is not a split. It would be if others were to follow, in more than twos and threes.

The Socialist Party statement was evidently rushed out to prevent Clare Daly's statement from being widely published without their side of the story being seen along side.

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 08:36 PM
I'm sure Sinn Féin are delighted at this split, hopefully it gets more nasty and the slim prospect of the ULA etc building an alternate left movement is utterly destroyed. This is a major setback, don't know if it will be able to recover from it, seen as things were not in great shape beforehand.

Maybe, or maybe it might re-energise the discussion on the building of the ULA, and the left generally. No party was every built without ferocious internal debates and fallings out.

Kev Bar
02-09-2012, 08:38 PM
My own opinion is the SP panicked. Yes, the Mick Wallace thing damaged the Technical Group .... and the left wing TDs in particular.

But these things are a one day wonder. Does anyone here remember the apparent meltdown for Sinn Fein arising from The McCartney Sisters? Adams said ... in any game you lose control some of the time ... you can't have the ball at your feet throughout the whole game.

Not panicking is a very important component in success.

In worrying about what people will think of them because they were seen sitting beside Mick Wallace .... they forgot to calculate the damage a split would result in.

Marriage may temporary ...... but Splits are forever.

Vividly.

Baron von Biffo
02-09-2012, 08:46 PM
Anyone hear anything from the press conference?

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 09:04 PM
The Socialist Party statement was evidently rushed out to prevent Clare Daly's statement from being widely published without their side of the story being seen along side.

Again for clarification - The Socialist Party actually waited for Clare Daly to issue a public statement announcing her resignation from the party. When it became clear that she didn't intend to do so the Socialist Party issued its own. It would have been politically incorrect to go to the CAHWT meeting on Saturday without letting people know what had happened while Clare Daly was standing up and backing Wallace at the meeting.

Saoirse go Deo
02-09-2012, 09:10 PM
Jolly Red Giant, whats the thinking in the party about the reasons for Daly supporting Wallace?

5intheface
02-09-2012, 09:12 PM
FY(plural)I

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv296/6intheface_2009/Summary.jpg

Sam Lord
02-09-2012, 09:21 PM
It seems to me that Clare Daly has shifted her position and resigned from the Socialist Party. That is not a split. It would be if others were to follow, in more than twos and threes.


I just listened to her RTE "This week" interview in which she says she has been inundated with messages of support from ULA unaligned and Socialist Party grassroots. So this story may just be starting to unfurl. It will be interesting to see the reasons put forward by the two brothers for resigning. It is hardly coincidence that those resignations came at the same time. Daly actually mentioned them in her interview pointing out that they had no connection to Wallace. This was in the context of her dismissal of the SP assertion that she resigned over Wallace.

Jolly Red Giant
02-09-2012, 09:25 PM
Jolly Red Giant, whats the thinking in the party about the reasons for Daly supporting Wallace?

That is something you'll have to ask Clare Daly - members of the Socialist Party have been trying to figure it out for some time. One possible explanation was her desire to broaden out the opposition to austerity from the ULA to include the likes of Wallace, Ming and even the likes of Ross and Donnelly on occasions, getting them to support anti-austerity private members motions.

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 09:51 PM
I just listened to her RTE "This week" interview in which she says she has been inundated with messages of support from ULA unaligned and Socialist Party grassroots. So this story may just be starting to unfurl. It will be interesting to see the reasons put forward by the two brothers for resigning. It is hardly coincidence that those resignations came at the same time. Daly actually mentioned them in her interview pointing out that they had no connection to Wallace. This was in the context of her dismissal of the SP assertion that she resigned over Wallace.

Inundation may be hyperbole. The numbers of people involved are not more than 100 or so.

She certainly would get support from unaligned ULA people on the basis of frustration with the way its development has been stifled. But whether she would on her other political positions is an open question. A certain amount I think, on the basis of the ULA developing as a soft left alternative to Labour.

Time will tell.

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 10:20 PM
Link to "This Week" interview with Clare Daly.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0902/row-over-daly-resignation-continues.html

fluffybiscuits
02-09-2012, 10:40 PM
I understand that Brian Greene, an SP party activist in Dublin North Central has tweeted that he resigned from the SP also - yesterday at 3 pm. My Twitter machine refuses to work (because the Boss dislikes it). Any confirmation?

Just double checked the twitter machine and he has indeed . Just four hours ago he wrote the following tweet on his page...


I'm at the @socialistparty recording press conference for first time since leaving the party.

On seeing Clare Daly resign I was sorry to hear her go. She did a lot of good and tried to make the world a better place but at least she still continues in the ULA. She has the same idea as the other party members but is doing her best. Personally any friendship with Wallace should not have come into it.

riposte
02-09-2012, 10:45 PM
I just listened to her RTE "This week" interview in which she says she has been inundated with messages of support from ULA unaligned and Socialist Party grassroots. So this story may just be starting to unfurl. It will be interesting to see the reasons put forward by the two brothers for resigning. It is hardly coincidence that those resignations came at the same time. Daly actually mentioned them in her interview pointing out that they had no connection to Wallace. This was in the context of her dismissal of the SP assertion that she resigned over Wallace.

Probably the most important quip from Daly during that interview was her reference to Joan Coliins TD ....... resigning from The Socialist Party eight years ago.

C. Flower
02-09-2012, 10:55 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0902/row-over-daly-resignation-continues.html

"Almighty attacks on ordinary people in the budget" "disappointed in SP response to austerity - Joe not up to date.

"To build a real serious alternative party to Labour - it is not sufficient to build small parties on the left...(interrupted by interviewer)...."

"a serious alternative...a broad serious political alternative..."

"I have a new team, mainly interestingly made up of women" "Joan (PBP), a woman, has flourished" as an Independent left TD.

fluffybiscuits
02-09-2012, 11:08 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0902/row-over-daly-resignation-continues.html

"Almighty attacks on ordinary people in the budget" "disappointed in SP response to austerity - Joe not up to date.

"To build a real serious alternative party to Labour - it is not sufficient to build small parties on the left...(interrupted by interviewer)...."

"a serious alternative...a broad serious political alternative..."

"I have a new team, mainly interestingly made up of women" "Joan (PBP), a woman, has flourished" as an Independent left TD.

Is she going to go it alone? Wonder who her new team is made up of. Is there any chance of Wallace being on board it?

riposte
02-09-2012, 11:35 PM
Is she going to go it alone? Wonder who her new team is made up of. Is there any chance of Wallace being on board it?

are you are pulling my leg again Fluffy. :rolleyes:

PaddyJoe
02-09-2012, 11:44 PM
That SP press conference was at 4.30 pm in Buswels today. Strange time given that a lot of people were focused on the Dublin/Mayo game:

The Socialist Party has this afternoon paid tribute to former party colleague TD Clare Daly.

The TD announced her resignation from the party yesterday and said she had redesignated herself as a member of the United Left Alliance.

The Socialist Party has said it deeply regrets her decision but that her support for tax evader and Independent TD Mick Wallace was damaging to the party reputation and had led to a number of disagreements between Clare and the other party members.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/socialist-party-pays-tribute-to-daly-565445.html

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 12:43 AM
Is she going to go it alone? Wonder who her new team is made up of. Is there any chance of Wallace being on board it?

Tricky Mickey hardly meets the 'girl power' test for membership of the Poor Clares.

DCon
03-09-2012, 08:23 AM
Tricky Mickey hardly meets the 'girl power' test for membership of the Poor Clares.

He could be the champagne for her socialist

DCon
03-09-2012, 08:31 AM
For a socialist, money is never far from Clare's thoughts


Ms Daly said she wanted a slice of the Socialist Party's state funding, allocated based on the number of TDs immediately after the general election.

She said she needed the money to help run her office and employ staff.

But Mr Higgins said whatever share of funding the party was given for Ms Daly would be returned to the taxpayer.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/higgins-rejects-daly-denial-she-quit-over-support-for-wallace-3217279.html

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 10:20 AM
That is something you'll have to ask Clare Daly - members of the Socialist Party have been trying to figure it out for some time. One possible explanation was her desire to broaden out the opposition to austerity from the ULA to include the likes of Wallace, Ming and even the likes of Ross and Donnelly on occasions, getting them to support anti-austerity private members motions.

Pity the ULA summer school never happened - it would have been a good opportunity for some proper in depth political discussion, to debate and draw the lessons from this.

I think, unless she comes out and indicates to the contrary, that Clare Daly has moved to a position closer to the SWP, or even Labour. She is not talking about building any kind of revolutionary movement based on the Irish working class. She seems to want to be involved in an informal grouping of lefts with a view to a left alternative to Labour.

From posts here, I think that there are people who would support that, given that they want a real and effective opposition that challenges Labour, and who are either against revolutionary politics, or who have not yet got around to them.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0902/row...continues.html

"Almighty attacks on ordinary people in the budget" "disappointed in SP response to austerity - Joe not up to date.

"To build a real serious alternative party to Labour - it is not sufficient to build small parties on the left...(interrupted by interviewer)...."

"a serious alternative...a broad serious political alternative..."

"I have a new team, mainly interestingly made up of women" "Joan (PBP), a woman, has flourished" as an Independent left TD.


Sam Lord's point I think is correct, that the type of work the Socialist Party has been doing, (and possibly the type of political discussion) has fostered this kind of orientation in Daly, unwelcome though her breakaway is to the Party.

riposte
03-09-2012, 10:36 AM
Pity the ULA summer school never happened - it would have been a good opportunity for some proper in depth political discussion, to debate and draw the lessons from this.

I think, unless she comes out and indicates to the contrary, that Clare Daly has moved to a position closer to the SWP, or even Labour. She is not talking about building any kind of revolutionary movement based on the Irish working class. She seems to want to be involved in an informal grouping of lefts with a view to a left alternative to Labour.

From posts here, I think that there are people who would support that, given that they want a real and effective opposition that challenges Labour, and who are either against revolutionary politics, or who have not yet got around to them.



Sam Lord's point I think is correct, that the type of work the Socialist Party has been doing, (and possibly the type of political discussion) has fostered this kind of orientation in Daly, unwelcome though her breakaway is to the Party.

Cass, I'm all in favour of Revolutionary politics and Poetry ..... but you can't eat poetry or revolutionary politics.

While the present situation may open the eyes of the masses to the absurdity of Capitalism ...... delivering for the poor and the deprived first is the priority not engaging in a campaign of "re-education."

Take a leaf out of Sinn Fein's book ...... work towards re-unification must be achieved through meeting the immediate needs of a population being crucified by cuts in services and social welfare.

Richardbouvet
03-09-2012, 11:24 AM
How about a new force in Irish politics: The Mick n' Clare Party?

riposte
03-09-2012, 11:29 AM
How about a new force in Irish politics: The Mick n' Clare Party?

we already have a new farce in Irish politics ..... it's called Enda n' Eamon.

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 12:06 PM
Special request for Uncle Joe and the lads. :)

From Clare to Here ~ The Fureys w/ Lyrics - YouTube

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 01:14 PM
Pity the ULA summer school never happened - it would have been a good opportunity for some proper in depth political discussion, to debate and draw the lessons from this.

I think, unless she comes out and indicates to the contrary, that Clare Daly has moved to a position closer to the SWP, or even Labour. She is not talking about building any kind of revolutionary movement based on the Irish working class. She seems to want to be involved in an informal grouping of lefts with a view to a left alternative to Labour.

From posts here, I think that there are people who would support that, given that they want a real and effective opposition that challenges Labour, and who are either against revolutionary politics, or who have not yet got around to them.
Actually, one of the difficulties was her insistance in trying to bring right-wingers in the Technical Group onside. The X-case motion was supposed to be a ULA sponsored motion - Clare Daly included Wallace - similarly with the motion on the cuts to SNAs which Ross and Donnelly signed.



Sam Lord's point I think is correct, that the type of work the Socialist Party has been doing, (and possibly the type of political discussion) has fostered this kind of orientation in Daly, unwelcome though her breakaway is to the Party.
SL knows as much about the SP as the mongrel that I saw run past my window a few minutes ago chasing a car.

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 01:44 PM
Actually, one of the difficulties was her insistance in trying to bring right-wingers in the Technical Group onside. The X-case motion was supposed to be a ULA sponsored motion - Clare Daly included Wallace - similarly with the motion on the cuts to SNAs which Ross and Donnelly signed.

So a parliamentarian who seeks to persuade other parliamentarians of the merits of her policies is to be criticised?

That blows any notion that the SP/ULA is serious about politics out of the water. What they wanted was glorious defeats rather than have the wrong sort of TD supporting them.

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 02:09 PM
Cass, I'm all in favour of Revolutionary politics and Poetry ..... but you can't eat poetry or revolutionary politics.

While the present situation may open the eyes of the masses to the absurdity of Capitalism ...... delivering for the poor and the deprived first is the priority not engaging in a campaign of "re-education."

Take a leaf out of Sinn Fein's book ...... work towards re-unification must be achieved through meeting the immediate needs of a population being crucified by cuts in services and social welfare.

None of which I suggested.

And how is Sinn Fein exactly goin to "meet immediate needs of a population being crucified by cuts in services and social welfare"?

Do you think that Sinn Fein has developed its strategy and programme without involvement of members in party conferences, seminars, summer schools ? Does any party attempt such a thing ?

What do you mean by "work towards reunification"?

SF's GFA strategy appears to be walking us backwards into reunification with the Union.

riposte
03-09-2012, 02:19 PM
None of which I suggested.

Do you think that Sinn Fein has developed its strategy and programme without involvement of members in party conferences, seminars, summer schools ? Does any party attempt such a thing ?

None of which I suggested ...lol !!




What do you mean by "work towards reunification"?

SF's GFA strategy appears to be walking us backwards into reunification with the Union.

I'll pass on these as they are not relevant to the discussion ..... I only mentioned Sinn Fein's methodology ....... as an example.

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 02:35 PM
Don't see any reason why Clare Daly should not have a solid future as an Independent left wing candidate for the ULA. There can be no question of her 'using' the platform which she has done at least much as anyone else to build - and a lot more than most. Agree she's made a bad political misjudgment over Mick Wallace, but it would be grossly unfair to her for that to be the thing that now mostly/exclusively defines her contribution to political life. The last 25 or 30 years surely continue to entitle her to a lot of respect and trust and can't just be written off. Daly seems to be as committed as ever to the principles she's stood by all along.

"Socialist Party leader Joe Higgins has signalled that Clare Daly's public support for Independent TD Mick Wallace could make it difficult for some members of his party to work with her as part of the United Left Alliance."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0903/clare-daly-united-left-alliance.html

As expected, the SP will do everything it can to marginalise Daly from now on.

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 02:59 PM
Actually, one of the difficulties was her insistance in trying to bring right-wingers in the Technical Group onside. The X-case motion was supposed to be a ULA sponsored motion - Clare Daly included Wallace - similarly with the motion on the cuts to SNAs which Ross and Donnelly signed.

SL knows as much about the SP as the mongrel that I saw run past my window a few minutes ago chasing a car.

Wallace also presented the pyrites bill motion that we discussed a while back.

And Wallace was described to me as "left leaning." I don't think Clare Daly was the only individual who explored the edges of alliance with non-socialist TDs. But Clare Daly appears to have kept moving rightwards, while the SP majority pulled back from the brink.

When the ULA was founded, one of the debates between the SWP and SP was what, if any, relationship should there be with people like Fintan O'Toole - left leaning people of the middle class. At that time, the SP appeared vehemently opposed to any relationship at all. ( In my view, wrongly - alliances do not have to mean abandoning one's own position). But inside the Dail, the line grew very fuzzy. Ming and Wallace, definitely not Socialists, were closely connected, and not criticised (until the crunch came with Wallace) by the SP. The SP is now involved with two bodies, the CAWHT and the ULA in which it is the majority political influence. Neither of these bodies have clear political programmes and both are broad cross-class alliances. In itself this is a good thing, but only in so far as the SP holds on to and asserts its own distinct political identity and puts forward its own distinct, clear and uncompromising programme.

Clare Daly is far from being the first and won't be the last person to shift from the left, rightwards. It is not a personality issue, so far as I can see, but part of the ongoing political left-right struggle.

SL may know nothing about the SP, but appears to know that when there are splits or schisms in parties, the reasons are political, not random, and there are essential political lessons to be learned from them in order to overcome whatever was the difficulty, and to move on.

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 03:03 PM
None of which I suggested ...lol !!



I'll pass on these as they are not relevant to the discussion ..... I only mentioned Sinn Fein's methodology ....... as an example.

So. No reply at all ? You seriously think parties should not undertake political analysis and discussion, and that political programmes and solutions to the present crisis just pop up like rabbits out of a magician's hat ?


Cass, I'm all in favour of Revolutionary politics and Poetry ..... but you can't eat poetry or revolutionary politics.

While the present situation may open the eyes of the masses to the absurdity of Capitalism ...... delivering for the poor and the deprived first is the priority not engaging in a campaign of "re-education."Vincents de Paul take that approach, do they not ?

I don't know why you have quotation marks around "re-education." It is your own term. No one else has used it.

riposte
03-09-2012, 04:02 PM
So. No reply at all ? You seriously think parties should not undertake political analysis and discussion, and that political programmes and solutions to the present crisis just pop up like rabbits out of a magician's hat ?

I never said or suggested anything as silly as that.




Vincents de Paul take that approach, do they not ?

Maybe I've a higher regard for Vincent de Paul than yourself Cass ..... they do good work.




I don't know why you have quotation marks around "re-education." It is your own term. No one else has used it.

Like ever? ......Sorry ..... i've mislaid my hair-splitting equipment again.

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 05:50 PM
[QUOTE=riposte;273119]I never said or suggested anything as silly as that.

I never said anything as silly as the words you suggested I said.


Maybe I've a higher regard for Vincent de Paul than yourself Cass ..... they do good work.

V de P are not a political party. And in any case, I'm quite sure that they have seminars, conferences and study events.


Like ever? ......Sorry ..... i've mislaid my hair-splitting equipment again.

Well, you didn't like it when you felt misquoted, did you :)

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 05:54 PM
Socialist Party press conference from yesterday -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOKAfX52Nww

Saoirse go Deo
03-09-2012, 06:01 PM
Everyone knows the point of Private Members Bills/Motions is to have a bit of grandstanding and to wave something in the face of those who say you are full of criticism and not solutions - why would Daly compromise to bring right wingers on board to support those bills when it doesn't really matter?

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 06:23 PM
Wallace also presented the pyrites bill motion that we discussed a while back
.Yes indeed - a motion what was to be presented by the ULA. It was the day revelatiosn emerged about Wallace and Clare Daly arranged a press conference attended by herslf and Wallace to publicise the bill knowing full well that his tax evasion would damage the ULA politically if it was associated with him.


And Wallace was described to me as "left leaning." I don't think Clare Daly was the only individual who explored the edges of alliance with non-socialist TDs. But Clare Daly appears to have kept moving rightwards, while the SP majority pulled back from the brink.
Wallace adopted a progressive attitude towards some issues - e.g. the war in Iraq and opposition to austerity - but, while the Socialist Party was willing to work with Wallace, it never had an orientation towards Wallace politically. I was always sceptical about Wallace and always felt that there were skeletons in the cupboard (as would be the case with any developer whose empire was collapsing) but Joe Higgins is correct when he says that if Wallace really had the interests of the CAHWT at heart he would never have got involved in the campaign - and if he were genuine he would voluntarily withdraw from all association at this point.

As for Clare Daly - and it pains me to say it - she has suffered very serious political damage and continues to suffer serious political damage by her association with Wallace. She is in danger of completely ostracising herself within the CAHWT if she continues to go to Wexford and speak at public meetings with Wallace and the ULA will have difficulty working with her if she does not extract herself from the straight-jacket she has placed around her. I couldn't care less what her personal relationships are with Wallace - but politically she needs to distance herself from a tax dodger who also has question marks over his treatment of his employees.

The unfortunate thing is that Clare Daly's support for Wallace could well assist in helping Wallace retain his seat in Wexford (and no other conclusion could be drawn from his continued involvement in the CAHWT in Wexford other than to assist his electoral chances) - while at the same time her political support for Wallace could completely wreck her chances of re-election in Dublin North - particularly if there were further skeletons in the cupboard (and given the nature of the property speculation game, I wouldn't be surprised).


When the ULA was founded, one of the debates between the SWP and SP was what, if any, relationship should there be with people like Fintan O'Toole - left leaning people of the middle class. At that time, the SP appeared vehemently opposed to any relationship at all. ( In my view, wrongly - alliances do not have to mean abandoning one's own position).
We will have to disagree on that one - having fuzzy media personalities involved would have been a completely distraction - and would have significantly watered down the ULA programme (it would be akin to having a pro-coalition wing in SYRIZA)


But inside the Dail, the line grew very fuzzy. Ming and Wallace, definitely not Socialists, were closely connected, and not criticised (until the crunch came with Wallace) by the SP.
Not true - there was no fuzzing of the line by the SP - by Clare Daly yes - but not by the SP. The Socialist Party worked will Wallace and Ming where appropriate but hold no truck with their political outlook.


The SP is now involved with two bodies, the CAWHT and the ULA in which it is the majority political influence. Neither of these bodies have clear political programmes and both are broad cross-class alliances. In itself this is a good thing, but only in so far as the SP holds on to and asserts its own distinct political identity and puts forward its own distinct, clear and uncompromising programme.
The CAHWT was clear and unequivocal on Saturday in stating that it was an anti-austerity campaign (despite a couple of delegates, including Wallace's supporters from Wexford arguing that it should only focus on the household tax out of fear of alienating people) and the SP will fight tooth and nail to ensure that the ULA maintains the socialist elements of its programme.


Clare Daly is far from being the first and won't be the last person to shift from the left, rightwards. It is not a personality issue, so far as I can see, but part of the ongoing political left-right struggle.
This I would agree with. It is not yet possible to determine where Clare Daly will end up politically - but if she continues to isolate herself by supporting Wallace her trajectory to the right could be quite rapid as she looks for political cover.


SL may know nothing about the SP, but appears to know that when there are splits or schisms in parties, the reasons are political, not random, and there are essential political lessons to be learned from them in order to overcome whatever was the difficulty, and to move on.
Of course Clare Daly's resignation is the result of political disagreements - but SL wasn't expressing anything constructive - merely his usual anti-Trotskyist rant.

riposte
03-09-2012, 06:34 PM
.Yes indeed - a motion what was to be presented by the ULA. It was the day revelatiosn emerged about Wallace and Clare Daly arranged a press conference attended by herslf and Wallace to publicise the bill knowing full well that his tax evasion would damage the ULA politically if it was associated with him.


Wallace adopted a progressive attitude towards some issues - e.g. the war in Iraq and opposition to austerity - but, while the Socialist Party was willing to work with Wallace, it never had an orientation towards Wallace politically. I was always sceptical about Wallace and always felt that there were skeletons in the cupboard (as would be the case with any developer whose empire was collapsing) but Joe Higgins is correct when he says that if Wallace really had the interests of the CAHWT at heart he would never have got involved in the campaign - and if he were genuine he would voluntarily withdraw from all association at this point.

As for Clare Daly - and it pains me to say it - she has suffered very serious political damage and continues to suffer serious political damage by her association with Wallace. She is in danger of completely ostracising herself within the CAHWT if she continues to go to Wexford and speak at public meetings with Wallace and the ULA will have difficulty working with her if she does not extract herself from the straight-jacket she has placed around her. I couldn't care less what her personal relationships are with Wallace - but politically she needs to distance herself from a tax dodger who also has question marks over his treatment of his employees.

The unfortunate thing is that Clare Daly's support for Wallace could well assist in helping Wallace retain his seat in Wexford (and no other conclusion could be drawn from his continued involvement in the CAHWT in Wexford other than to assist his electoral chances) - while at the same time her political support for Wallace could completely wreck her chances of re-election in Dublin North - particularly if there were further skeletons in the cupboard (and given the nature of the property speculation game, I wouldn't be surprised).


We will have to disagree on that one - having fuzzy media personalities involved would have been a completely distraction - and would have significantly watered down the ULA programme (it would be akin to having a pro-coalition wing in SYRIZA)


Not true - there was no fuzzing of the line by the SP - by Clare Daly yes - but not by the SP. The Socialist Party worked will Wallace and Ming where appropriate but hold no truck with their political outlook.


The CAHWT was clear and unequivocal on Saturday in stating that it was an anti-austerity campaign (despite a couple of delegates, including Wallace's supporters from Wexford arguing that it should only focus on the household tax out of fear of alienating people) and the SP will fight tooth and nail to ensure that the ULA maintains the socialist elements of its programme.


This I would agree with. It is not yet possible to determine where Clare Daly will end up politically - but if she continues to isolate herself by supporting Wallace her trajectory to the right could be quite rapid as she looks for political cover.


Of course Clare Daly's resignation is the result of political disagreements - but SL wasn't expressing anything constructive - merely his usual anti-Trotskyist rant.

On a day when the population are aghast at the cut backs in health care packages for the elderly and house bound...... this petty squabbling in the SP will appear self-indulgent and careless of the needs of the poor and the deprived.

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 06:46 PM
On a day when the population are aghast at the cut backs in health care packages for the elderly and house bound...... this petty squabbling in the SP will appear self-indulgent and careless of the needs of the poor and the deprived.

Do you seriously think that the Socialist Party is in the least bit interested in having to address this issue?

Clare Daly has resigned, the Socialist Party have moved on and will continue to build opposition to austerity.

I was having a political discussion with CF about the potential fall-out of Clare Daly's actions - if you have something contructive to say by all means join in - if not, then keep you nose out of it instead of stating the blindingly obvious.

5intheface
03-09-2012, 06:54 PM
if you have something contructive to say by all means join in - if not, then keep you nose out of it instead of stating the blindingly obvious.

Ah Jolly, Riposte is as entitled as anyone else to offer his opinion on recent events. You can choose to debate with him or ignore him.

Kev Bar
03-09-2012, 07:05 PM
Jolly,

First the Baron, now Riposte.

A little grace under pressure is most appealing.

(Not that I'm a master thereof or anything)

Its abscence can also be quite revealing

You are supposed to be able to tolerate those pesky critics, opponents, cynics, gossips and democrats.

The latter being the most important.

At times one gets the impression, the party can't even get it together to be seen to tolerate them.

I think that is as, if not more damaging, than anything the right wing media throws at those you deem should know better.

riposte
03-09-2012, 07:17 PM
Do you seriously think that the Socialist Party is in the least bit interested in having to address this issue?

Clare Daly has resigned, the Socialist Party have moved on and will continue to build opposition to austerity.

I was having a political discussion with CF about the potential fall-out of Clare Daly's actions - if you have something contructive to say by all means join in - if not, then keep you nose out of it instead of stating the blindingly obvious.
lol !! ...... temper ..temper . lol !!

Sam Lord
03-09-2012, 08:15 PM
SL knows as much about the SP as the mongrel that I saw run past my window a few minutes ago chasing a car.

What a welll informed canine. :)

I found it interesting that you passed by without comment numerous posts bashing the SP and its leadership before settling on mine to lash out at.

Posts like:




the Socialist Party cannot abide members with a mind of their own.

the SP is in reality little more than a personal vehicle for Higgins

It is a good move by her to get away from those backwoods men. The pinkos are in the past.

Hard to get over those couple of years in Maynooth.

I have a theory that the Church always marks you no matter how much you think you've escaped....

it felt like talking to an earnest but admirable Irish missionary in Africa

In another thread recently it was said that the SWP was more like a cult than a proper party. The SP wouldn't be much different. Daly has committed the worst sin imaginable by leaving the cult so the other members will be out to damage her.



These attacks (from the right generally) needed no response but my fairly innocuous observations required you to immediately respond in a hostile manner. I guess this was because I know nothing whereas the other posters are well informed. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I think I have been very prescient in my comments on the SP and the ULA to date but I will let objective readers judge that for themselves. I have no doubt that they resonate with some ordinary members of your party. You are not the only SPer who reads this site and your opinion is a matter of complete indifference to me as I do not write for you or the SP leadership.

And as for what I know I will say this. I have observed genuinely revolutionary parties in other countries (some places in South America in particular come to mind) have a few members elected to the national parliament without any particular fanfare. This is just one small aspect of their work and is not accorded any tremendous significance. The public representatives are treated as no more important that the comrade selling the newspaper on the streetcorner. They are just activists doing a different political job. They do not become "somebodies". They remain "nobodies" in the society organising for revolutionary change along with the other "nobodies". These parties seem to manage to stay on the straight and narrow. In Ireland, on the other hand, it seems to me that when the "left" gets a few TD's elected this is accorded tremendous significance and looked upon as a great breakthrough for the working class. The elected members are given prestige and status way above the ordinary members and become political personalties. Even when the party is campaigning on a broad issue like the fiscal treaty the ordinary members are going around sticking up posters with gigantic pictures of some parliamentarian on them. When the SP has a problem with Clare Daly and has discussions with her these discussions apparently center on "what is good for Clare Daly and what is good for the SP". Clare Daly has become a "somebody", a political personality in her own right.

There are predictable outcomes from approaching participation in a bourgeois parliament in a politically wrong manner whether you wish to acknowledge them or not.

Finally, I would note that there is a certain logic to the position that Clare Daly is articulating. If 99% of someones political effort is devoted to "opposing austerity" on a small number of taxation related issues then do you need the socialist party? Is it not just a hinderance to mobilising and uniting the broadest possible response? Why not just build the ULA?

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 08:47 PM
Ah Jolly, Riposte is as entitled as anyone else to offer his opinion on recent events. You can choose to debate with him or ignore him.
Rip is not offering an opinion - but simply tossing out a dig at the SP and the left in general.


Jolly,

First the Baron, now Riposte.

A little grace under pressure is most appealing.
What makes you think that I or any other member of the SP is under pressure - in fact I am feeling far less 'pressure' politically than I have for months - the issue came to a head and has been dealt with. I have absolutely no trouble dabating any political issue with anyone provided it is in a constructive, fraternal manner - something neither of the two individuals you mention (and a third who I will deal with in a minute) have engaged in.


What a welll informed canine. :)
Actually the dog got belted by the car - something that happens from sheer stupidity.


found it interesting that you passed by without comment numerous posts bashing the SP and its leadership before settling on mine to lash out at.
Two points -
1. I ignore most right-wing rants
2. I particularly dislike Stalinists who - despite the historical destruction of their political foundations - like to lecture us poor trots on our stupidity.



Anyway, I think I have been very prescient in my comments on the SP and the ULA to date
Actually you have been your usual obnoxious self.



And as for what I know I will say this. I have observed genuinely revolutionary parties in other countries (some places in South America in particular come to mind) have a few members elected to the national parliament without any particular fanfare. This is just one small aspect of their work and is not accorded any tremendous significance. The public representatives are treated as no more important that the comrade selling the newspaper on the streetcorner. They are just activists doing a different political job. They do not become "somebodies". They remain "nobodies" in the society organising for revolutionary change along with the other "nobodies". These parties seem to manage to stay on the straight and narrow. In Ireland, on the other hand, it seems to me that when the "left" gets a few TD's elected this is accorded tremendous significance and looked upon as a great breakthrough for the working class. The elected members are given prestige and status way above the ordinary members and become political personalties. Even when the party is campaigning on a broad issue like the fiscal treaty the ordinary members are going around sticking up posters with gigantic pictures of some parliamentarian on them. When the SP has a problem with Clare Daly and has discussions with her these discussions apparently center on "what is good for Clare Daly and what is good for the SP". Clare Daly has become a "somebody", a political personality in her own right.
And again you lecture the SP on it's failings without having a single clue of the attitude and approach of the SP to things like parliamentary representation and electoral politics.

Taking South Africa - do you support your fellow travellers in the SACP who blamed striking miners for their massacre by police and demanded the arrest of their strike leaders?


There are predictable outcomes from approaching participation in a bourgeois parliament in a politically wrong manner whether you wish to acknowledge them or not.
Of course there are - the problem is that you do not know what the predictable outcomes are, you do not know the approach to a bourgeois parliament, you clearly as a Stalinist do not know what a politically wrong manner is - and you do not acknowledge anything - your merely make snide comments from the sideline.


Finally, I would note that there is a certain logic to the position that Clare Daly is articulating.
and this sentence clearly demonstrates the point - and, may I add, the typical lack of class understanding common among Stalinists.

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 08:50 PM
Now that I have had my little bit of amusement for the evening - back to the topic at hand.

The Socialist Party have issued a statement outlining its views on Clare Daly's participation within the ULA -

http://www.socialistparty.net/component/content/article/3-newsflash/1034-statement-from-the-socialist-party-on-clare-dalys-involvement-in-the-ula

riposte
03-09-2012, 08:55 PM
Rip is not offering an opinion - but simply tossing out a dig at the SP and the left in general.


On the contrary JRG ... I don't see the left's difficulty as an opportunity for Sinn Fein .... I recognise that a left wing government of the future, inclusive of Sinn Fein ...... will require a lot of other left TDS ...... and probably many other drop-outs from the Labour Party.

garrett36
03-09-2012, 08:58 PM
I was involved in the Socialist Party and its predecessor Mililtant organisation from 1991 -2009 and active with Clare Daly in the Dublin North branch for much of that time. I have blogged on the way forward now for the left and also 'socialist attitude to Mick Wallace'.

Am interested in your feedback - garrettmullan.com

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 09:04 PM
[QUOTE=Jolly Red Giant;273144].Yes indeed - a motion what was to be presented by the ULA. It was the day revelatiosn emerged about Wallace and Clare Daly arranged a press conference attended by herslf and Wallace to publicise the bill knowing full well that his tax evasion would damage the ULA politically if it was associated with him.

When I pointed this out at the time, I was castigated by SP members. No indication was given by the SP that Clare Daly was acting contrary to any instruction by the SP. It is still my view that the Bill was reformist in character, and could have led people to believe that the present economic system and existing construction industry was capable, with a few changes in the law, of delivering good homes for everyone.


Wallace adopted a progressive attitude towards some issues - e.g. the war in Iraq and opposition to austerity - but, while the Socialist Party was willing to work with Wallace, it never had an orientation towards Wallace politically. I was always sceptical about Wallace and always felt that there were skeletons in the cupboard (as would be the case with any developer whose empire was collapsing) but Joe Higgins is correct when he says that if Wallace really had the interests of the CAHWT at heart he would never have got involved in the campaign - and if he were genuine he would voluntarily withdraw from all association at this point.


I would be happy to be shown examples of political criticism by the SP of Wallace, Ming and other supposedly "left leaning" radical TDs, made before the tax default issue broke in main stream media.


As for Clare Daly - and it pains me to say it - she has suffered very serious political damage and continues to suffer serious political damage by her association with Wallace.

She has left the Socialist Party and seems happy to establish a new niche for herself in Irish politics. She has won considerable respect for herself with her competent Dail and TV performances and seems liked and admired by many involved in CAHWT. I think that revolutionary politics are a minority outlook at this stage in Ireland, and it is very possible she will find a support base for herself among people disillusioned with Labour and wanting to become involved with opposing "austerity." The SP has consistently argued that there is a gap in Irish politics on the social democratic left. This to the best of my recall is why they supported the foundation of the ULA. It always seemed evident that building such an organisation would pull sections of the SP to the right and I've said so on a number of occasions going back even before the foundation of the ULA.


She is in danger of completely ostracising herself within the CAHWT if she continues to go to Wexford and speak at public meetings with Wallace

Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know. She has been very well received up to now.


and the ULA will have difficulty working with her if she does not extract herself from the straight-jacket she has placed around her.

The ULA is a broad alliance of the lefts. I don't see anything at this stage that would give the ULA the right to exclude her, if she agrees with its very sketchy and short programme. Any serious attempt might cause a split in the ULA.


I couldn't care less what her personal relationships are with Wallace - but politically she needs to distance herself from a tax dodger who also has question marks over his treatment of his employees.

I agree that the SP should take this position. Clare Daly has evidently decided to do otherwise.


The unfortunate thing is that Clare Daly's support for Wallace could well assist in helping Wallace retain his seat in Wexford (and no other conclusion could be drawn from his continued involvement in the CAHWT in Wexford other than to assist his electoral chances) - while at the same time her political support for Wallace could completely wreck her chances of re-election in Dublin North - particularly if there were further skeletons in the cupboard (and given the nature of the property speculation game, I wouldn't be surprised).

I don't share your confidence that the electorate will throw out a candidate over non compliance on tax matters. There is no evidence for this.


We will have to disagree on that one - having fuzzy media personalities involved would have been a completely distraction - and would have significantly watered down the ULA programme (it would be akin to having a pro-coalition wing in SYRIZA)

I didn't give a view on who should and who should not be in the ULA. It is a simple matter of wanting to join and agreeing with programme. What I said was that the SP had opportunist relations with radical middle class people in the Dail, but opposed relations of any kind (principled included) with the radicalising middle class outside the Dail. When people are moving leftward, the last thing they need is people accommodating their old outlook. They are wanting something new, with a firm and principled foundation. If they don't find it, they are more likely to vacillate back to a centrist viewpoint.


Not true - there was no fuzzing of the line by the SP - by Clare Daly yes - but not by the SP. The Socialist Party worked will Wallace and Ming where appropriate but hold no truck with their political outlook.

Clare Daly was at the time the SPs most prominent member. At no stage did the SP, until her resignation, make public any disagreement with her actions.


The CAHWT was clear and unequivocal on Saturday in stating that it was an anti-austerity campaign (despite a couple of delegates, including Wallace's supporters from Wexford arguing that it should only focus on the household tax out of fear of alienating people) and the SP will fight tooth and nail to ensure that the ULA maintains the socialist elements of its programme. At the last Conference, months ago, there was an agreement to undertake work on a number of different political topics, to develop the ULA's programme. How is this process going ?


This I would agree with. It is not yet possible to determine where Clare Daly will end up politically - but if she continues to isolate herself by supporting Wallace her trajectory to the right could be quite rapid as she looks for political cover.

Of course Clare Daly's resignation is the result of political disagreements - but SL wasn't expressing anything constructive - merely his usual anti-Trotskyist rant.


He claimed he was offering constructive criticism. Perhaps another case of political vacillation ? :confused:

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 09:06 PM
Now that I have had my little bit of amusement for the evening - back to the topic at hand.

The Socialist Party have issued a statement outlining its views on Clare Daly's participation within the ULA -

http://www.socialistparty.net/component/content/article/3-newsflash/1034-statement-from-the-socialist-party-on-clare-dalys-involvement-in-the-ula

"there are important issues, including issues of principle, relating to Clare Daly’s political support for Mick Wallace that can’t be brushed under the carpet and need to be discussed inside the ULA. The outcome of that discussion clearly could affect Clare Daly’s status in the ULA."

So there are 3 possible outcomes

(1) Daly backs down and ditches Wallace.

(2) The SP gets her turfed out of the ULA.

(3) The SP fails to get her turfed out so they leave the ULA.

The first is very unlikely. If she was going to cave in to SP demands she would still be in the party.

If Boyd-Barrett agrees to throw out Daly to satisfy the SP then he's acknowledging that the ULA is SP property. It would also show the ULA to be an organisation where dissent is forbidden.

If, having thrown down the gauntlet, the SP can't get Daly thrown out then Daly's dismissal of Higgins as yesterday's man will be vindicated and the SP will be in serious trouble.

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 09:08 PM
I was involved in the Socialist Party and its predecessor Mililtant organisation from 1991 -2009 and active with Clare Daly in the Dublin North branch for much of that time. I have blogged on the way forward now for the left and also 'socialist attitude to Mick Wallace'.

Am interested in your feedback - garrettmullan.com

Welcome to PW Garrett.

PW is a discussion forum so why not tell us your opinions - I can guarantee you'll get plenty of feedback ;)

riposte
03-09-2012, 09:17 PM
I was involved in the Socialist Party and its predecessor Mililtant organisation from 1991 -2009 and active with Clare Daly in the Dublin North branch for much of that time. I have blogged on the way forward now for the left and also 'socialist attitude to Mick Wallace'.

Am interested in your feedback - garrettmullan.com

Welcome to the forum Garrett ...... my opinion on this can be viewed here .....http://www.politicalworld.org/showpost.php?p=272881&postcount=77

Sam Lord
03-09-2012, 09:20 PM
I was involved in the Socialist Party and its predecessor Mililtant organisation from 1991 -2009 and active with Clare Daly in the Dublin North branch for much of that time. I have blogged on the way forward now for the left and also 'socialist attitude to Mick Wallace'.

Am interested in your feedback - garrettmullan.com



The loss of Joe Higgins seat and the failure of Clare Daly to win in 2007, after previous failure in 2002, was a blow. I remember one leading member, who I will not name, breaking down in tears.

Sigh ...

garrett36
03-09-2012, 09:25 PM
My own opinion is the SP panicked. Yes, the Mick Wallace thing damaged the Technical Group .... and the left wing TDs in particular.

But these things are a one day wonder. Does anyone here remember the apparent meltdown for Sinn Fein arising from The McCartney Sisters? Adams said ... in any game you lose control some of the time ... you can't have the ball at your feet throughout the whole game.

Not panicking is a very important component in success.

In worrying about what people will think of them because they were seen sitting beside Mick Wallace .... they forgot to calculate the damage a split would result in.

Marriage may temporary ...... but Splits are forever.

I think this is a very perceptive point. I am someone out of the party for 3 years but I went to the meeting they had on the media for example in July and that was another case of the party panicking... garrettmullan.com for my blog

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 09:26 PM
I was involved in the Socialist Party and its predecessor Mililtant organisation from 1991 -2009 and active with Clare Daly in the Dublin North branch for much of that time. I have blogged on the way forward now for the left and also 'socialist attitude to Mick Wallace'.

Am interested in your feedback - garrettmullan.com

Welcome, garrettmullan. I'm happy to put a link to your blog up on our blog roll. I'll be interested in your views on the SP's current political approach, and the way forward.

Sam Lord
03-09-2012, 09:34 PM
And again you lecture the SP on it's failings without having a single clue of the attitude and approach of the SP to things like parliamentary representation and electoral politics.


Certain things are glaringly obvious to even the most disinterested observer.



Taking South Africa - do you support your fellow travellers in the SACP who blamed striking miners for their massacre by police and demanded the arrest of their strike leaders?


I have never been to South Africa, don't know that much about the place, and certainly have no connections with any political party there. In short it is impossible to say what you are blathering on about.



Of course there are - the problem is that you do not know what the predictable outcomes are, you do not know the approach to a bourgeois parliament, you clearly as a Stalinist do not know what a politically wrong manner is - and you do not acknowledge anything - your merely make snide comments from the sideline.


Hmmmmmm ....



and this sentence clearly demonstrates the point - and, may I add, the typical lack of class understanding common among Stalinists.

It is nothing to do with my class understanding. The position Clare Daly has adopted did not just fall from nowhere into the head of one of your longest serving (expelled from the Labour Party along with Higgings and a few other Militant way back when) and leading activists. It has a logical connection to the guiding political thought and orientation of the SP today.

Sam Lord
03-09-2012, 09:35 PM
I think this is a very perceptive point. I am someone out of the party for 3 years but I went to the meeting they had on the media for example in July and that was another case of the party panicking... garrettmullan.com for my blog

God help them if they ever do come under attack by the state.

Sam Lord
03-09-2012, 09:39 PM
Now that I have had my little bit of amusement for the evening - back to the topic at hand.

The Socialist Party have issued a statement outlining its views on Clare Daly's participation within the ULA -

http://www.socialistparty.net/component/content/article/3-newsflash/1034-statement-from-the-socialist-party-on-clare-dalys-involvement-in-the-ula

Now that you have had your little bit of amusement let me shock you by saying that I agree with your approach here. I think it is entirely fitting and appropriate that you take your dispute with Daly into the ULA.

Kev Bar
03-09-2012, 09:40 PM
I think this is a very perceptive point. I am someone out of the party for 3 years but I went to the meeting they had on the media for example in July and that was another case of the party panicking... garrettmullan.com for my blog

If members of a political organisation covering up their colleagues kicking someone to death and an elected rep not paying his taxes are seen as mere one day wonders which spin can deal with .... it seems we are screwed left, right and centre.

@Sam - criticism from the right? Really?

@Jolly the latter half of my post was perhaps the more pertinent

Sam Lord
03-09-2012, 09:46 PM
@Sam - criticism from the right? Really?



I believe I used the word "generally".

But if you felt the cap fitted then who am I to argue.

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 09:56 PM
When I pointed this out at the time, I was castigated by SP members. No indication was given by the SP that Clare Daly was acting contrary to any instruction by the SP. It is still my view that the Bill was reformist in character, and could have led people to believe that the present economic system and existing construction industry was capable, with a few changes in the law, of delivering good homes for everyone.



Clare Daly was at the time the SPs most prominent member. At no stage did the SP, until her resignation, make public any disagreement with her actions.
I am going to take these two together as they are the same point -
Of course the Socialist Party is not going to publicly criticise its own public representative at the drop of a hat. Disagreements with the approach of Clare Daly took place - the Socialist Party endeavoured to resolve these difficulties through discussion. The Socialist Party unfortunately failed and Clare Daly left the party. It was and is necessary to outline the reasons why this happened and the measures the SP took to try and prevent it.



I would be happy to be shown examples of political criticism by the SP of Wallace, Ming and other supposedly "left leaning" radical TDs, made before the tax default issue broke in main stream media.
Criticisms are made when appropriate - not for the sake of it.



She has left the Socialist Party and seems happy to establish a new niche for herself in Irish politics. She has won considerable respect for herself with her competent Dail and TV performances and seems liked and admired by many involved in CAHWT.
Clare Daly is an extremely hard-working and capable individual - however, her political future will be determined by the political judgements she makes - and the evidence of the last couple of months are not promising.


I think that revolutionary politics are a minority outlook at this stage in Ireland,
no sh*t -


and it is very possible she will find a support base for herself among people disillusioned with Labour and wanting to become involved with opposing "austerity."
As long as she continues to politically support Wallace she will alienate any significant support base.


The SP has consistently argued that there is a gap in Irish politics on the social democratic left. This to the best of my recall is why they supported the foundation of the ULA. It always seemed evident that building such an organisation would pull sections of the SP to the right and I've said so on a number of occasions going back even before the foundation of the ULA.
The participation of the ULA has not pulled any members of the SP to the right - it was not a factor in Clare Daly's resignation.



Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know. She has been very well received up to now.
Clare Daly was in a minority of 4 people at the CAHWT meeting on Saturday. Three seperate motions were passed re-affirming the CAHWT's position that Wallace has no role to play in the CAHWT. Clare Daly spoke in support of Wallace - three other people (including Brian Greene) supported her. Furthermore, Clare Daly broke the previously decided position of the CAHWT and went to Wexford to speak at one of a series of public meetings organised by Wallace.



The ULA is a broad alliance of the lefts. I don't see anything at this stage that would give the ULA the right to exclude her, if she agrees with its very sketchy and short programme. Any serious attempt might cause a split in the ULA.
Clare Daly's political support for Wallace has done serious damage to her political reputation - it has done damage to the Socialist Party, to the ULA and to the CAHWT. Her continued support for Wallace will continue to damage both the ULA and the CAHWT and, particularly, the ULA will have to address the situation before the damage becomes irreparable.



I don't share your confidence that the electorate will throw out a candidate over non compliance on tax matters. There is no evidence for this.
I think you need to re-read the point I was making - I think Wallace could be re-elected, in part as a result of the support he has received from Clare Daly, while the political damage she suffers could cost her the seat in DN


What I said was that the SP had opportunist relations with radical middle class people in the Dail, but opposed relations of any kind (principled included) with the radicalising middle class outside the Dail.
This is cr*p - the Socialist Party works will all kinds of people in a wide variety of campaigns etc. However, the Socialist Party always has been and will be consistent in who it will give political support to.


At the last Conference, months ago, there was an agreement to undertake work on a number of different political topics, to develop the ULA's programme. How is this process going ?
Don't know - not in Dublin - our local ULA branch is working well as it has done since the start.



He claimed he was offering constructive criticism:
Claiming it and doing it are two different things


the SP will be in serious trouble.
A lot smarter people than your good self have been predicting the demise of the SP for a lot longer than you.



PW is a discussion forum so why not tell us your opinions - I can guarantee you'll get plenty of feedback ;)
Still trying to scavange tit-bits of gossip Biffo?

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 10:03 PM
Certain things are glaringly obvious to even the most disinterested observer.

Someone who looks at everything through the tinted glasses you wear is incapable of seeing anything clearly.



I have never been to South Africa, don't know that much about the place, and certainly have no connections with any political party there. In short it is impossible to say what you are blathering on about.
Maybe you should broaden your horizons and your political education a bit.


It has a logical connection to the guiding political thought and orientation of the SP today.
In the purist world of the unreconstructed Stalinist everything is always black and white.


. I think it is entirely fitting and appropriate that you take your dispute with Daly into the ULA.
Of course you do - nothing would make you happier than seeing the trots disintegrate.

Sam Lord
03-09-2012, 10:09 PM
Maybe you should broaden your horizons and your political education a bit.



I should learn what political party I support in South Africa? :rolleyes:

riposte
03-09-2012, 10:09 PM
If members of a political organisation covering up their colleagues kicking someone to death and an elected rep not paying his taxes are seen as mere one day wonders which spin can deal with .... it seems we are screwed left, right and centre.

@Sam - criticism from the right? Really?

@Jolly the latter half of my post was perhaps the more pertinent


"Who Killed Bobby Sands?"
"I , said Mrs. Thatcher with my snow white hands
I killed Bobby Sands."
Michael Hartnett


Nobody in politics has snow white hands Kev.
Parties should be judged by their policies and their propensity to implement them....... it's called.... playing the ball not the man.

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 10:18 PM
[QUOTE=Jolly Red Giant;273227]I am going to take these two together as they are the same point -
Of course the Socialist Party is not going to publicly criticise its own public representative at the drop of a hat. Disagreements with the approach of Clare Daly took place - the Socialist Party endeavoured to resolve these difficulties through discussion. The Socialist Party unfortunately failed and Clare Daly left the party. It was and is necessary to outline the reasons why this happened and the measures the SP took to try and prevent it.

Criticisms are made when appropriate - not for the sake of it.

Clare Daly is an extremely hard-working and capable individual - however, her political future will be determined by the political judgements she makes - and the evidence of the last couple of months are not promising.

By criticism, I mean analysis of, and if need be, refutation, of a political standpoint. Surely that applies to relations between the SP and other elements in the Technical Group ?

...
The participation of the ULA has not pulled any members of the SP to the right - it was not a factor in Clare Daly's resignation.
Are you suggesting that her letter of resignation was 100% falsehood ?


Clare Daly was in a minority of 4 people at the CAHWT meeting on Saturday. Three seperate motions were passed re-affirming the CAHWT's position that Wallace has no role to play in the CAHWT. Clare Daly spoke in support of Wallace - three other people (including Brian Greene) supported her. Furthermore, Clare Daly broke the previously decided position of the CAHWT and went to Wexford to speak at one of a series of public meetings organised by Wallace.

Interesting. 4 out of how many? What was the purpose of these public meetings ?


Clare Daly's political support for Wallace has done serious damage to her political reputation - it has done damage to the Socialist Party, to the ULA and to the CAHWT. Her continued support for Wallace will continue to damage both the ULA and the CAHWT and, particularly, the ULA will have to address the situation before the damage becomes irreparable.
I think that Daly should be vigorously challenged in the ULA. I think that the ULA should ensure that "ULA TDs" should be people who have the endorsement of the majority of the ULA. I think that for the SP to lean on its numbers and throw her out would be the wrong approach. On what grounds would she be expelled from the Alliance ? Should everyone else having a political relationship with a non-approved person (how defined?) be thrown out ?


I think you need to re-read the point I was making - I think Wallace could be re-elected, in part as a result of the support he has received from Clare Daly, while the political damage she suffers could cost her the seat in DN

That is exactly the point to which I replied.


This is cr*p - the Socialist Party works will all kinds of people in a wide variety of campaigns etc.

However, the Socialist Party always has been and will be consistent in who it will give political support to.
What are the SP's criteria ?


Don't know - not in Dublin - our local ULA branch is working well as it has done since the start.

To the best of my understanding, policy discussion groups were established by the ULA as a whole, not only Dublin members. People have posted here saying that these groups have not met. I find it hard to understand why the democratic decision of the ULA members has been ignored, if that is the case. With two full time workers, there is no reason why this could not have been carried out.

Jolly Red Giant
03-09-2012, 10:33 PM
By criticism, I mean analysis of, and if need be, refutation, of a political standpoint. Surely that applies to relations between the SP and other elements in the Technical Group ?
Absolutely - and when necessary it happens.


Are you suggesting that her letter of resignation was 100% falsehood ?
As outlined by Joe Higgins at the press conference - Clare Daly didn't raise the issue of the ULA once during discussions over the past couple of months.



Interesting. 4 out of how many?
there were over 100 delegates at the meeting


What was the purpose of these public meetings ?
Three public meetings organised by Wallace and his supporters under the name of the CAHWT using CAHWT material and with Wallace as the main speaker at two and Clare Daly at one.



I think that Daly should be vigorously challenged in the ULA. I think that the ULA should ensure that "ULA TDs" should be people who have the endorsement of the majority of the ULA. I think that for the SP to lean on its numbers and throw her out would be the wrong approach. On what grounds would she be expelled from the Alliance ? Should everyone else having a political relationship with a non-approved person (how defined?) be thrown out ?
Clare Daly is giving political support to a tax dodging property developer who is unrepentant and who refuses to use his not inconsiderable assets to pay his tax debts. The Socialist Party is not interested in kicking her out - the ULA will have to decide if it is willing to continue suffering the political damage that has been and will be inflicted by her support for Wallace.



That is exactly the point to which I replied.
Your answer didn't make sense.



What are the SP's criteria ?
Come on CF - if you are that badly stuck go and look on the SP website.



To the best of my understanding, policy discussion groups were established by the ULA as a whole, not only Dublin members. People have posted here saying that these groups have not met. I find it hard to understand why the democratic decision of the ULA members has been ignored, if that is the case. With two full time workers, there is no reason why this could not have been carried out.
I agree - but you appear to be blaming the SP for this - there are a lot more than the SP in the ULA. Furthermore the last thing the ULA needs is to waste a lot more time engaged in a damage limitation exercise resulting from Clare Daly's poor political judgement.

Maximus
03-09-2012, 11:14 PM
I think she is letting friendship come ahead of morals.

DCon
03-09-2012, 11:15 PM
I think she is letting friendship come ahead of morals.

maybe she thinks if you are a nice guy you can steal from the State and from Contractors

fluffybiscuits
03-09-2012, 11:31 PM
Everyone knows the point of Private Members Bills/Motions is to have a bit of grandstanding and to wave something in the face of those who say you are full of criticism and not solutions - why would Daly compromise to bring right wingers on board to support those bills when it doesn't really matter?

I firmly believe she had the rights of women and the pro choice groups at heart when she went in with that bill. Clare knew that it was going to be defeated as all the blueshirt bead rattlers were going to shoot it down in flames as she knew it would. I agree with your last sentence. :)

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 11:37 PM
A lot smarter people than your good self have been predicting the demise of the SP for a lot longer than you.

Well it's the walking dead at the moment.


Still trying to scavange tit-bits of gossip Biffo?

Lord but you're a ratty little bugger when someone doesn't agree with you.

PW is a discussion forum so I invited Garrett to engage in discussion with the members here. Not everyone is like you, some people even enjoy discussing things with those who have different opinions to their own.

C. Flower
04-09-2012, 12:37 AM
A
Come on CF - if you are that badly stuck go and look on the SP website.

Looked. I see that the Socialist Party supports the extradition of Assange, although there is a distinct possibility that would result in his being removed to the US and a horrible fate in the US gulags. I also see a brightly coloured support sticker for the anarchist performance artists, Pussy Riot. Nothing whatsoever about the Socialist Party's political theory on working in bourgeois parliaments.


I agree - but you appear to be blaming the SP for this - there are a lot more than the SP in the ULA. Furthermore the last thing the ULA needs is to waste a lot more time engaged in a damage limitation exercise resulting from Clare Daly's poor political judgement.If the SP had done anything about it, it would have happened. The two full timers (what do they actually do with their time ?) could have managed it with a bit of support from Paul Murphy and Joe Higgins.

I really don't understand what your last sentence is supposed to mean, in the context of the ULA calling off actions agreed on by the last Conference.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 10:18 AM
The two full timers (what do they actually do with their time ?) could have managed it with a bit of support from Paul Murphy and Joe Higgins.

Four 'colleagues' on the staff according to Higgins at the expenses Clare Daly press conference yesterday.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 11:23 AM
"A chara, – I note with surprise the Socialist Party’s disapproval of Clare Daly’s support of Mick Wallace, in particular their reluctance to accept him as a spokesman in their campaign against the household charge.

Surely a known tax evader is the ideal person to take a leading role in a national campaign of tax evasion? "

She has a point.

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224323573399

Kev Bar
04-09-2012, 04:23 PM
"A chara, – I note with surprise the Socialist Party’s disapproval of Clare Daly’s support of Mick Wallace, in particular their reluctance to accept him as a spokesman in their campaign against the household charge.

Surely a known tax evader is the ideal person to take a leading role in a national campaign of tax evasion? "

She has a point.

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224323573399

Very good.

Kev Bar
04-09-2012, 04:25 PM
I believe I used the word "generally".

But if you felt the cap fitted then who am I to argue.

Sam - I have a large head and generic goods rarely fit.

Jolly - What ya think of democracy?

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 05:01 PM
Joan Collins PBPA coming up in a while on DriveTime to talk about Daly's future in the ULA.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 05:16 PM
Collins on DriveTime now.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 05:18 PM
She seems to be supporting Daly over Higgins but she's a poor communicator so it's hard to tell.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 05:24 PM
She condemns Wallace's election to the Dail. :eek:

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 05:26 PM
That really was God awful *****. Seems I was wrong about Boyd-Barrett being the thickest TD in the Dail, his party colleague has snatched the crown from him.

MediaBite
04-09-2012, 06:24 PM
That really was God awful *****. Seems I was wrong about Boyd-Barrett being the thickest TD in the Dail, his party colleague has snatched the crown from him.

Dang! Sorry I missed that. Anything more about what she said?

Sam Lord
04-09-2012, 06:29 PM
That really was God awful *****. Seems I was wrong about Boyd-Barrett being the thickest TD in the Dail, his party colleague has snatched the crown from him.

She is not in the SWP as far as I know.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 06:35 PM
Dang! Sorry I missed that. Anything more about what she said?

You didn't miss much. In the pauses between Wilson's monologues Collins rambled incoherently and almost incomprehensibly.

The nub of it seems to be that the PBPA aren't shedding tears over the split in the SP and sleep wouldn't be lost if Uncle Joe led his remaining troops out of the ULA.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 06:36 PM
She is not in the SWP as far as I know.

It's hard to keep track of all the chunks in the Alphabet Soup. Are they not both PBPA?

Kev Bar
04-09-2012, 06:38 PM
It's hard to keep track of all the chunks in the Alphabet Soup. Are they not both PBPA?

Good to see that someone is at least watching the pot.

C. Flower
04-09-2012, 09:10 PM
It's hard to keep track of all the chunks in the Alphabet Soup. Are they not both PBPA?

I think that's right - she is in PBP, but not the SWP.

She is the person who gave Bertie Ahern an earful outside the Dail, before the General Election.

morticia
04-09-2012, 09:39 PM
I think she is letting friendship come ahead of morals.

Were there not rumours (wholly unsubstantiated of course ;-) that this was a particularly close friendship??

People thinking with parts of their anatomy other than the brain might explain a lot, I suppose. Hypothetically.

riposte
04-09-2012, 09:56 PM
Were there not rumours (wholly unsubstantiated of course ;-) that this was a particularly close friendship??

People thinking with parts of their anatomy other than the brain might explain a lot, I suppose. Hypothetically.

I'm surprised at you morticia ..... and you a moderator an all :eek:

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 10:01 PM
Dang! Sorry I missed that. Anything more about what she said?

The podcast is available here (http://www.rte.ie/radio1/drivetime/) MB.

fluffybiscuits
05-09-2012, 02:43 PM
Were there not rumours (wholly unsubstantiated of course ;-) that this was a particularly close friendship??

People thinking with parts of their anatomy other than the brain might explain a lot, I suppose. Hypothetically.

Oh you should have been a lawyer :D Love your turn of phrase :D

antiestablishmentarian
06-09-2012, 09:46 AM
I think that's right - she is in PBP, but not the SWP.

She is the person who gave Bertie Ahern an earful outside the Dail, before the General Election.

She is formerly a member of the SP. I know SP comrades in the past would have considered her to be closer to them politically than the SWP but given the complete lack of progress with the ULA and what appear to be insurmountable differences in organizational perspectives I think that judgment was a tad erroneous.

C. Flower
06-09-2012, 10:21 AM
She is formerly a member of the SP. I know SP comrades in the past would have considered her to be closer to them politically than the SWP but given the complete lack of progress with the ULA and what appear to be insurmountable differences in organizational perspectives I think that judgment was a tad erroneous.

I've heard her speak, and agree with you on this.

The problem with the ULA is not so much inability to agree overall organisational perspectives, as inability to even agree on some useful actions that are not contentious and to carry them forward. The ULA is nowhere to be seen as an entity, even as a broad alliance, such is the fear that it should take legs and outpace any of the main component parties.

Baron von Biffo
06-09-2012, 10:57 AM
The problem with the ULA is not so much inability to agree overall organisational perspectives, as inability to even agree on some useful actions that are not contentious and to carry them forward. The ULA is nowhere to be seen as an entity, even as a broad alliance, such is the fear that it should take legs and outpace any of the main component parties.

There's the nub of it. Higgins, Boyd-Barrett and the near invisible Healey will never be on the team unless they're the captain.

Baron von Biffo
06-09-2012, 04:36 PM
But she wasn't elected as an independent?

I think that may be a factor in getting the allowance (at least it should be).

Today's Indo backs your understanding of the allowance to independents.

It's hard to see the reasoning behind that way of doing it. The allowance was ostensibly brought in to create a level playing field between independent deputies and their party peers. The position of a former party TD who becomes independent is if anything, more difficult than that of a deputy who was elected as an Ind so surely they should have a right to equal treatment.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-champagne-charlie-helped-spread-the-wealth-3221660.html

Baron von Biffo
07-09-2012, 01:23 PM
At the risk of feeding paranoia, brilliant cover on the Phoenix. :D

http://i47.tinypic.com/awvnzo.jpg

C. Flower
09-09-2012, 05:25 PM
Maeve Sheehan at the Independent tried to pull the threads of this together.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/maeve-sheehan-how-firebrand-clare-left-the-socialists-reeling-3223587.html

The article confirms the impression that Clare Daly has had enough of centralised democracy and party discipline and has made the rightwards move to bourgeois individualism (i.e. doing what she feels she personally wants to do).

She took to the Dail like a duck to water - transformed from a grouchy goth person to a sleek and self confident TD overnight. Sheehan mentions her middle class army background and that her brother and uncle are priests.

A few months back, I came across a few of Lenin's pamphlets for sale, second hand, with Clare Daly's name written on the flyleaf. I wondered then was some kind of ideological clear out going on.

Her loss was my gain :)

One of them was "One Step Forward and Two Steps Back."

riposte
09-09-2012, 06:46 PM
Maeve Sheehan at the Independent tried to pull the threads of this together.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/maeve-sheehan-how-firebrand-clare-left-the-socialists-reeling-3223587.html

The article confirms the impression that Clare Daly has had enough of centralised democracy and party discipline and has made the rightwards move to bourgeois individualism (i.e. doing what she feels she personally wants to do).

"

The article doesn't confirm anything ..... contains nothing new ..... it's a piece of rubbish.

She accuses Daly of being equivocal when her attitude might well be described having a sense of perspective.

As I said previously .. The SP panicked ..... they should have thought of the damage a split would do to the party ........ it's ridiculous a party with two TDs splitting over a personal friendship ....... the suggestion/ implication/ innuendo that Daly has suddenly turned into an avaricious capitalist is ludicrous ...... talking about her uncles who are priests.

Absence of malice ......... I think not!

Baron von Biffo
09-09-2012, 07:21 PM
"Her political crimes included offering him "political support", she "publicly vouched for him" and "consciously and consistently" sat next to him in the Dail. "

Friendship with outsiders.

"Higgins wanted Daly to sign a statement defending the party from Wallace's attack"

Demand for renunciation of the outsider.

"There was meeting after meeting, in their Dail offices, at the party headquarters, in the corridors of Leinster House, "advising" her on the damage she was causing"

Wear down the sinner.

"Her relationship with Higgins disintegrated rapidly. The last time they spoke was before the August bank holiday."

Withdrawal of the Leader's love.

Cult or party?

C. Flower
09-09-2012, 07:22 PM
The article doesn't confirm anything ..... contains nothing new ..... it's a piece of rubbish.

She accuses Daly of being equivocal when her attitude might well be described having a sense of perspective.

As I said previously .. The SP panicked ..... they should have thought of the damage a split would do to the party ........ it's ridiculous a party with two TDs splitting over a personal friendship ....... the suggestion/ implication/ innuendo that Daly has suddenly turned into an avaricious capitalist is ludicrous ...... talking about her uncles who are priests.

Absence of malice ......... I think not!

Oh - it's the "priest" reference again. Taken along with the army officer father, it was taken by Sheehan as an indication of an establishment milieu.

I should have mentioned that Joe Higgins went to a seminary too, so they cancel each other out.

I agree with you about the panic in the SP - the same reaction was there when they overreacted about some mildly adverse press about the Wallace affair, abandoned the ULA summer school and held a public meeting about how they were being victimised by the media.

It strikes me that the rush to discipline Clare Daly was part of the same panic - trying to distance the Party from Wallace.

They should not worry about what the Press says about them. They should worry if the Press is not hostile to what they are doing.

You have not given any reason for your view that Daly has not moved right.

riposte
09-09-2012, 07:38 PM
Oh - it's the "priest" reference again. Taken along with the army officer father, it was taken by Sheehan as an indication of an establishment milieu.

I should have mentioned that Joe Higgins went to a seminary too, so they cancel each other out.

I agree with you about the panic in the SP - the same reaction was there when they overreacted about some mildly adverse press about the Wallace affair, abandoned the ULA summer school and held a public meeting about how they were being victimised by the media.

It strikes me that the rush to discipline Clare Daly was part of the same panic - trying to distance the Party from Wallace.

They should not worry about what the Press says about them. They should worry if the Press is not hostile to what they are doing.

You have not given any reason for your view that Daly has not moved right.


I'll keep you informed if she applies for membership of Fine Gael...... lol !!

C. Flower
09-09-2012, 07:40 PM
I'll keep you informed if she applies for membership of Fine Gael...... lol !!

Thank you. But in the meantime a move from an overtly / supposedly Marxist party, with centralised democracy, to the ULA, a loose left alliance, is a move right. Impossible to know where she will go from there.

It is possible that she intends to adopt a left position in the ULA. But the fact that she left without fighting her corner in the SP would not make me think that probable.

Of course, a rightward move on her part does not make the ULA right wing.

Sam Lord
09-09-2012, 07:44 PM
Cult or party?

I have no particular affection for the trots but even you must know that your argument is a bit absurd.

fluffybiscuits
09-09-2012, 08:01 PM
Oh - it's the "priest" reference again. Taken along with the army officer father, it was taken by Sheehan as an indication of an establishment milieu.

I should have mentioned that Joe Higgins went to a seminary too, so they cancel each other out.

I agree with you about the panic in the SP - the same reaction was there when they overreacted about some mildly adverse press about the Wallace affair, abandoned the ULA summer school and held a public meeting about how they were being victimised by the media.

It strikes me that the rush to discipline Clare Daly was part of the same panic - trying to distance the Party from Wallace.

They should not worry about what the Press says about them. They should worry if the Press is not hostile to what they are doing.

You have not given any reason for your view that Daly has not moved right.

They made a struggle also for a bit of media attention IMO when they did attempt to make a statement distancing themselves from all involved. There was a rush and a strongly worded statement , as if to say "We wont tolerate this , that and the other". It can be perhaps said there is just empty words as they seem to do sometimes...

Dr. FIVE
09-09-2012, 08:05 PM
A few months back, I came across a few of Lenin's pamphlets for sale, second hand, with Clare Daly's name written on the flyleaf. I wondered then was some kind of ideological clear out going on.


lolz, brilliant

riposte
09-09-2012, 08:17 PM
Thank you. But in the meantime a move from an overtly / supposedly Marxist party, with centralised democracy, to the ULA, a loose left alliance, is a move right. Impossible to know where she will go from there.

It is possible that she intends to adopt a left position in the ULA. But the fact that she left without fighting her corner in the SP would not make me think that probable.

Of course, a rightward move on her part does not make the ULA right wing.

Cass..... the Bible was written for nomads and peasant farmers ...... Marxist-Leninist doctrines are of the same ilk ..... these books should be read for their inspirational and poetic content not for appliction to todays ills. James Connolly's head would be in spin a if he had to cope with todays problems .... he represented the men of no property ....... but he never represented an unemployed couple with €200,000 of negative equity.

http://books.google.ie/books/about/James_Connolly_Wrote_for_Today.html?id=plR5GQAACAA J&redir_esc=y

Baron von Biffo
09-09-2012, 08:22 PM
I have no particular affection for the trots but even you must know that your argument is a bit absurd.

Why is that?

C. Flower
09-09-2012, 08:36 PM
Cass..... the Bible was written for nomads and peasant farmers ...... Marxist-Leninist doctrines are of the same ilk ..... these books should be read for their inspirational and poetic content not for appliction to todays ills. James Connolly's head would be in spin if he had to cope with todays problems .... he represented the men of no property ....... but he never represented an unemployed couple with €200,000 of negative equity.

http://books.google.ie/books/about/James_Connolly_Wrote_for_Today.html?id=plR5GQAACAA J&redir_esc=y

This is a very good point.

But Marx's writings can explain exactly what was going on in the economy that brought this about.


According to Marx, concentration and centralization of capital was eventually to throw the petty bourgeoisie into the ranks of the increasingly immiserated working class (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-workingclass.html), just as the peasantry were to become proletarianized (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-proletarianization.html) despite their attachment to the land.

bolshevik
10-09-2012, 01:15 PM
The Greene brothers explain why they left and confirm Clare's claim that it was about the ULA - http://www.dublinpeople.com/article.php?id=1568&l=100

C. Flower
10-09-2012, 01:38 PM
The Greene brothers explain why they left and confirm Clare's claim that it was about the ULA - http://www.dublinpeople.com/article.php?id=1568&l=100

Thanks. But saying there were "operational differences" doesn't explain much.

Perhaps they would like to contribute to the thread and explain the political reasons why they left the SP, and what they think should be done.


“My resignation was for operational differences with the party in relation to how and what was done,” he told Northside People.
“Donal, Clare and I had spoken about it prior to our resignation and our reasons are very similar.
“I don’t imagine there is general unrest within the Socialist Party as the rest of the members seem quite happy and loyal. I wouldn’t say this is the start of any huge walkout.”
Mr Greene said he was disappointed but unsurprised by the controversy caused by Deputy Daly’s resignation.
“I think she made her position very clear but there seemed to be a fixation on the part of the Socialist Party on Mick Wallace given how many times they mentioned him in their statements after Clare’s resignation.
“Donal and I never met Mick Wallace and we also resigned so it’s obvious that the issues are with the Socialist Party and how it’s being run.”

Jolly Red Giant
10-09-2012, 02:00 PM
Maeve Sheehan at the Independent tried to pull the threads of this together.

Sheehan article is riddled with factual inaccuraciesWhat are they ?



As I said previously .. The SP panicked ..... they should have thought of the damage a split would do to the party ........ it's ridiculous a party with two TDs splitting over a personal friendship ....... the suggestion/ implication/ innuendo that Daly has suddenly turned into an avaricious capitalist is ludicrous ...... talking about her uncles who are priests.


There was no panic in the Socialist Party - there was a long and deliberate process aimed at finding a solution that both the SP National Committee and Clare Daly could would within. Personal friendships were not an issue - nobody cared if Clare Daly was a personal friend of Wallace, the issue was her political support for a tax dodging property developer. Furthermore the nonsense of her background etc. has not come from the Socialist Party but from the right-wing media.


It strikes me that the rush to discipline Clare Daly was part of the same panic - trying to distance the Party from Wallace.

this is again rubbish - there were absolutely no disciplinary measures implemented by the Socialist Party against Clare Daly - the SP National Committee attempted to engage in discussion and was willing to continue this discussion even as Clare Daly resigned.It is very clear from your own account that Daly rejected party discipline as she refused to discuss her issues and account for her actions to party committees in the normal way.



Thanks. But saying there were "operational differences" doesn't explain much.

I am lothe to get involved in this one - the 'operational differences' were pretty much this - the Greenes wanted the SP to put resources into DNE in order that they could run in elections - the attitude of the SP National Committee was that the Greenes should assist in building the party in DNE rather than expecting others to do it for them.A breakaway of political opportunists and individualists who feel they can do better as Independents that by the hard thankless grind of building a political party? Why are you loathe to get involved in this ? Surely the thing to do is learn any political lessons that can be learnt, and put down a marker as to SP political principles ? Why opt for "damage limitation" - surely, a bourgeois approach to a crisis ? Or is there another side to the story - do the Greenes have reason to feel that the SP should have put more into DNE ?


Incidentally - the ULA was never an issue in discussions with Clare Daly and the Greenes never mentioned Clare Daly in their resignation letter. As long as Clare Daly continues to politically support Wallace the ULA will suffer - she cannot assist in building the ULA when she is politically damaging it at the same time. Some in the ULA might hope that it can all be brushed under the carpet - but the media will not let that happen. There really can be no fudge on the issue.The ULA does not need to suffer if those willing were allowed to get on with building it.

It's the working class that the Socialist Party is accountable to, not the media.

riposte
10-09-2012, 04:48 PM
Some in the ULA might hope that it can all be brushed under the carpet - but the media will not let that happen. There really can be no fudge on the issue.

You make some good points JRG ... but it all comes down to this ..... the SP is running scared of the Media ...... not a very heroic position for a revolutionary party to find itself in.

Jolly Red Giant
10-09-2012, 07:59 PM
You make some good points JRG ... but it all comes down to this ..... the SP is running scared of the Media ...... not a very heroic position for a revolutionary party to find itself in.

Bullsh*t - how is the Socialist Party running scared of the media?

Baron von Biffo
10-09-2012, 08:14 PM
Thanks. But saying there were "operational differences" doesn't explain much.

Perhaps they would like to contribute to the thread and explain the political reasons why they left the SP, and what they think should be done.

And if they're going to form yet another Left party with Daly.

riposte
10-09-2012, 09:06 PM
Bullsh*t - how is the Socialist Party running scared of the media?


You said it yourself here JRG......



Some in the ULA might hope that it can all be brushed under the carpet - but the media will not let that happen..

Jolly Red Giant
10-09-2012, 10:49 PM
You said it yourself here JRG......

What bullsh*t are you spouting now?

Do you seriously think the capitalist media owned by the likes of Denis O'Brien will miss an opportunity to try and undermine the anti-Household Tax Campaign or the ULA?

This has nothing to do with your 'panic' and everything to do with the reality of the establishment using every means at their disposal to undermine opposition to austerity.

riposte
10-09-2012, 11:02 PM
What bullsh*t are you spouting now?

Do you seriously think the capitalist media owned by the likes of Denis O'Brien will miss an opportunity to try and undermine the anti-Household Tax Campaign or the ULA?

This has nothing to do with your 'panic' and everything to do with the reality of the establishment using every means at their disposal to undermine opposition to austerity.

I tried JRG ...... but there are no mirrors in your house.

C. Flower
10-09-2012, 11:29 PM
What bullsh*t are you spouting now?

Do you seriously think the capitalist media owned by the likes of Denis O'Brien will miss an opportunity to try and undermine the anti-Household Tax Campaign or the ULA?

This has nothing to do with your 'panic' and everything to do with the reality of the establishment using every means at their disposal to undermine opposition to austerity.

Don't you have your own newspaper and website ?

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 01:17 PM
Don't you have your own newspaper and website ?

CF - this has to be among the stupidest statements that you have ever come out with.

Do you have any understanding of the role of the media as a tool of the bourgeois establishment in a capitalist society?

C. Flower
11-09-2012, 02:01 PM
CF - this has to be among the stupidest statements that you have ever come out with.

Do you have any understanding of the role of the media as a tool of the bourgeois establishment in a capitalist society?

I am not quite so much in awe of it as you and the SP seem to be. I certainly do not think that a self proclaimed revolutionary party should determine its actions because of fear of the Media.

I also am amazed at the way you casually dismiss the importance of independent working class / socialist press and media, which has a great history and is an important aspect of the work of any leftwing organisation. Part of that work is routinely to correct the disinformation and built in bias of the "main stream media."

bolshevik
11-09-2012, 03:18 PM
I also am amazed at the way you casually dismiss the importance of independent working class / socialist press and media, which has a great history and is an important aspect of the work of any leftwing organisation. Part of that work is routinely to correct the disinformation and built in bias of the "main stream media."

Perhaps it just indicates that the SP don't have much confidence in their own press to be able to do that...

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 04:43 PM
I am not quite so much in awe of it as you and the SP seem to be. I certainly do not think that a self proclaimed revolutionary party should determine its actions because of fear of the Media.
Who said anything about fear of the media - the primary reason that Clare Daly's political support for Wallace was a concern was because it was coming up as an issue on the doorsteps for the CAHWT and it was coming up as an issue among genuine trade union members within workplaces. The auxillary reason was that the capitalist media were driving the issue and keeping it in the public eye. The Socialist Party were concerned about the political damage being cause by Clare Daly's support for Wallace to the CAHWT and to the SP - not because of the media but because of the impact on the ground.


I also am amazed at the way you casually dismiss the importance of independent working class / socialist press and media, which has a great history and is an important aspect of the work of any leftwing organisation. Part of that work is routinely to correct the disinformation and built in bias of the "main stream media."
Who is dismissing anything? - you have to be realistic about the influence and impact of the paper and website of the Socialist Party in comparison to the impact of the national media. The Socialist Party uses its media organs as best it can - it also uses the capitalist media as best it can - but at this moment in time it would be cloud-cuckooland stuff to suggest that the impact of the capitalist media can be counteracted by the monthly paper and the website of a revolutionary party.

And again to emphasise - the problem with Clare Daly's support for Wallace was not that the media were using it to inflict political damage - the problem was that her support for Wallace was wrong from the political perspective of a socialist activist.


Perhaps it just indicates that the SP don't have much confidence in their own press to be able to do that...
And Bolshie - I notice that you have gone out of your way to accept what Clare Daly and the Greenes have said about their resignation from the SP while ignoring the fact that the dogs in the street know it's about political support for a tax dodging property developer.

bolshevik
11-09-2012, 05:04 PM
And Bolshie - I notice that you have gone out of your way to accept what Clare Daly and the Greenes have said about their resignation from the SP while ignoring the fact that the dogs in the street know it's about political support for a tax dodging property developer.

Actually I haven't taken a position of simply believing what they have said.

What I have done is pointed out what appear to me to be inconsistencies in the SP narrative and speculated on what impact this might have within the ULA in terms of the struggle for a workers' party.

There is no reason per se for me to believe either side in this little spat within the ranks of left-reformism.

I agree that the most likely thing is that this is a move to the right by the resignees but that doesn't mean everything the SP is saying about it is accurate.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 05:09 PM
Actually I haven't taken a position of simply believing what they have said.
Actually you have repeatedly hinted that their new found love of the ULA is genuine and believeable.


What I have done is pointed out what appear to me to be inconsistencies in the SP narrative
I didn't see you point out any inconsistancies in the SP position - nor the blatantly obvious inconsistancies in Daly's statements.


and speculated on what impact this might have within the ULA in terms of the struggle for a workers' party.
Have you commented on the damage Clare Daly will do to the ULA if she continues to politically support Wallace?


There is no reason per se for me to believe either side in this little spat within the ranks of left-reformism.
Spartoid sectarianism raises its head


I agree that the most likely thing is that this is a move to the right by the resignees but that doesn't mean everything the SP is saying about it is accurate.
Of course it is a move to the right - and you are entitled to your opinion even if it is wrong.

C. Flower
11-09-2012, 06:14 PM
Who said anything about fear of the media - the primary reason that Clare Daly's political support for Wallace was a concern was because it was coming up as an issue on the doorsteps for the CAHWT and it was coming up as an issue among genuine trade union members within workplaces. The auxillary reason was that the capitalist media were driving the issue and keeping it in the public eye. The Socialist Party were concerned about the political damage being cause by Clare Daly's support for Wallace to the CAHWT and to the SP - not because of the media but because of the impact on the ground.


Who is dismissing anything? - you have to be realistic about the influence and impact of the paper and website of the Socialist Party in comparison to the impact of the national media. The Socialist Party uses its media organs as best it can - it also uses the capitalist media as best it can - but at this moment in time it would be cloud-cuckooland stuff to suggest that the impact of the capitalist media can be counteracted by the monthly paper and the website of a revolutionary party.

And again to emphasise - the problem with Clare Daly's support for Wallace was not that the media were using it to inflict political damage - the problem was that her support for Wallace was wrong from the political perspective of a socialist activist.

.

As you said -



Some in the ULA might hope that it can all be brushed under the carpet - but the media will not let that happen. There really can be no fudge on the issue.

It is clear to me and to other readers of the thread that you are responding to pressure from the mainstream Press.

Sam Lord
11-09-2012, 06:45 PM
Spartoid sectarianism raises its head.



He has a different view to you, that is all. It's always the same with you. Someone makes a point that makes you uncomfortable and you can only respond by sticking some label onto it. "Stalinist sectarianism" or "Spartoid sectarianism" or whatever else drifts into your mind. And if you can't find a label then you just degenerate into personal abuse.

It's pathetic really.

riposte
11-09-2012, 08:06 PM
Do you have any understanding of the role of the media as a tool of the bourgeois establishment in a capitalist society?


Yeah ...... I wrote a book about it.

Title Who Do You Think You're Talking To?
Author Michael O'Flanagan
Publisher Riposte Books, 2000
ISBN 1901596052, 9781901596052
Length 80 pages
Subjects Mass media
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000191480/Details

http://www.politicalworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=244&d=1347390362

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 08:38 PM
He has a different view to you, that is all. It's always the same with you. Someone makes a point that makes you uncomfortable and you can only respond by sticking some label onto it. "Stalinist sectarianism" or "Spartoid sectarianism" or whatever else drifts into your mind. And if you can't find a label then you just degenerate into personal abuse.

It's pathetic really.

Our resident hardline Stalinist comes in and makes his usual sectarian comment about the SP without actually understanding the point that was being made.



It is clear to me and to other readers of the thread that you are responding to pressure from the mainstream Press.
and again you seem to be oblivious to the role of the bourgeois media in a capitalist society and regard the fact that someone who recognises their actual role is 'responding to pressure'.

I will restate this for you one more time - how about this time you actually attempt to understand what you are being told -

The Socialist Party had a problem with Clare Daly's political support for Wallace because it was fundementally the wrong political position to adopt for a socialist. The issue was a matter that had to be dealt with because it was damaging the CAHWT and it was also politically damaging the position of the SP particularly among TU activists and members. The bourgeois media used the issue to engage in a propaganda campaign against the SP, the CAHWT and against the left in general - and will continue to do so as long as Clare Daly continues her political support for Wallace. For the Socialist Party the issue has been resolved by the resignation of Clare Daly. For the ULA it has still the potential to cause political damage. The CAHWT have removed Mick Wallace from any role within the campaign but the continued support given by Clare Daly to Mick Wallace affords the bourgeois media an opportunity to continue to engage in a propaganda campaign against the CAHWT.

There was no issue of panic, no issue of pressure, no issue of cave-in to the media - if there was this panic then the SP would have booted Clare Daly out two months ago when the issue first arose. Instead the SP engaged in repeated discussions with Clare Daly in an attempt to find a solution acceptable to both Clare Daly and the SP National Committee. Similarly when the media attacked Clare Daly over travelling expenses the Socialist Party defended her on the issue - because it was bogus nonsense. Clare Daly took the decision to resign from the SP because she was unwilling (for whatever reason) to engage in political discussions with the SP about her political support for Wallace and was unwilling to attempt to find a workable solution that would allow her to remain in the party.


Yeah ...... I wrote a book about it.
No one asked you the question - but feel free to attempt to get a free plug for your self-published tome.

C. Flower
11-09-2012, 08:46 PM
For the Socialist Party the issue has been resolved by the resignation of Clare Daly.

Well, no, actually. The Socialist Party has attempted to distance itself from the political morass in which its TDs wallowed - stretching to Shane Ross, about as far to the right as you could find in the Dail - and Ming Flanagan - as well as "left leaning" Wallace, by a quick re-write of history, intended to put it in peoples heads that only Daly had such associations.

You must think people are easily fooled.

Dr. FIVE
11-09-2012, 08:52 PM
Yeah ...... I wrote a book about it.



finally living up to the name :)

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 09:03 PM
Well, no, actually. The Socialist Party has attempted to distance itself from the political morass in which its TDs wallowed - stretching to Shane Ross, about as far to the right as you could find in the Dail - and Ming Flanagan - as well as "left leaning" Wallace, by a quick re-write of history, intended to put it in peoples heads that only Daly had such associations.

You must think people are easily fooled.

I think your dislike of the Socialist Party and your mistaken perception that the reason the ULA has not grown is down to the intransigence of the Socialist Party has absolutely clouded your perception of how the Socialist Party has acted in the Dail.

The Socialist Party has never had any political truck with Ross, Ming, Wallace or any of the other independents in the Dail. The Socialist Party has fought within the ULA for the ULA to forge an independent identity within the Dail exclusive of the others in the Technical Group. Of those in the Technical Group the only one the Socialist Party would really have any time for is Pringle (who it would like to see join the ULA). You are correct that Clare Daly attempted to forge closer political ties with these individuals - particularly Wallace - (something which shows the contradiction of her new found love for all things ULA) - but this does not mean that the Socialist Party had any formal position of acting in such a manner.

Ming and Wallace backed the CAHWT - as they or anyone else was entitled to do. The Socialist Party welcomed their support for the campaign - a campaign that is a broad community based campaign that is supported by half the households in the country. This however, does not mean that the Socialist Party is in any way politically aligned with these individuals.

You have repeated these assertions on a number of occasions - that it was not Clare Daly acting on her own but a conscious strategy of the Socialist Party and one Joe Higgins also engaged in - if you want to make these claims then please provide evidence to back up your assertions.

Baron von Biffo
11-09-2012, 09:14 PM
The Socialist Party has never had any political truck with Ross, Ming, Wallace or any of the other independents in the Dail.

Because politicians should never have any truck with or seek to influence other politicians.

Better to be pure and holy and achieve nothing than be tainted by co-operation and do something for the people who elect you.

riposte
11-09-2012, 09:29 PM
Our resident hardline Stalinist comes in and makes his usual sectarian comment about the SP without actually understanding the point that was being made.


and again you seem to be oblivious to the role of the bourgeois media in a capitalist society and regard the fact that someone who recognises their actual role is 'responding to pressure'.

I will restate this for you one more time - how about this time you actually attempt to understand what you are being told -

The Socialist Party had a problem with Clare Daly's political support for Wallace because it was fundementally the wrong political position to adopt for a socialist. The issue was a matter that had to be dealt with because it was damaging the CAHWT and it was also politically damaging the position of the SP particularly among TU activists and members. The bourgeois media used the issue to engage in a propaganda campaign against the SP, the CAHWT and against the left in general - and will continue to do so as long as Clare Daly continues her political support for Wallace. For the Socialist Party the issue has been resolved by the resignation of Clare Daly. For the ULA it has still the potential to cause political damage. The CAHWT have removed Mick Wallace from any role within the campaign but the continued support given by Clare Daly to Mick Wallace affords the bourgeois media an opportunity to continue to engage in a propaganda campaign against the CAHWT.

There was no issue of panic, no issue of pressure, no issue of cave-in to the media - if there was this panic then the SP would have booted Clare Daly out two months ago when the issue first arose. Instead the SP engaged in repeated discussions with Clare Daly in an attempt to find a solution acceptable to both Clare Daly and the SP National Committee. Similarly when the media attacked Clare Daly over travelling expenses the Socialist Party defended her on the issue - because it was bogus nonsense. Clare Daly took the decision to resign from the SP because she was unwilling (for whatever reason) to engage in political discussions with the SP about her political support for Wallace and was unwilling to attempt to find a workable solution that would allow her to remain in the party.


No one asked you the question - but feel free to attempt to get a free plug for your self-published tome.

You really don't like other human beings do you?

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 09:43 PM
Because politicians should never have any truck with or seek to influence other politicians.


Politicians represent class interests - and the Socialist Party is not interested in attempting to influence politicians who operate in defence of the bourgeois class - it is interested in attempting to influence working class people to support socialist policies. The Socialist Party will support any reform that benefits working class people but doesn't under any circumstances, support the idea that reforms alone can solve the economic, political and social crisis faced by working class people.


You really don't like other human beings do you?
Actually I am quite a happy-go-lucky, pleasant and generous individual that gets on with practically everyone on a personal level - I have an intolerence for people who attempt to distort my political views and who demonstrate pomposity in an attempt to dismiss my views.

C. Flower
11-09-2012, 09:59 PM
I think your dislike of the Socialist Party and your mistaken perception that the reason the ULA has not grown is down to the intransigence of the Socialist Party has absolutely clouded your perception of how the Socialist Party has acted in the Dail.

The Socialist Party has never had any political truck with Ross, Ming, Wallace or any of the other independents in the Dail. The Socialist Party has fought within the ULA for the ULA to forge an independent identity within the Dail exclusive of the others in the Technical Group. Of those in the Technical Group the only one the Socialist Party would really have any time for is Pringle (who it would like to see join the ULA). You are correct that Clare Daly attempted to forge closer political ties with these individuals - particularly Wallace - (something which shows the contradiction of her new found love for all things ULA) - but this does not mean that the Socialist Party had any formal position of acting in such a manner.

Ming and Wallace backed the CAHWT - as they or anyone else was entitled to do. The Socialist Party welcomed their support for the campaign - a campaign that is a broad community based campaign that is supported by half the households in the country. This however, does not mean that the Socialist Party is in any way politically aligned with these individuals.

You have repeated these assertions on a number of occasions - that it was not Clare Daly acting on her own but a conscious strategy of the Socialist Party and one Joe Higgins also engaged in - if you want to make these claims then please provide evidence to back up your assertions.

The Socialist Party has set a litmus test for political alliance as "sitting next to x in the Dail." Going by that measure, Joe Higgins has sat next to the lot of them including Shane Ross. The evidence is on Joe Higgins website, in the form of video recordings of this disgraceful event.

The ULA failed to establish a coherent and distinct Dail identity. A group developed in the Dail and around the CAWHT into which the SP and PBP merged. The SP is now attempting to distance itself from some of these associations.

I express my views on the actions of the SP not because I like or dislike the Party, but because it presents itself as the real opposition to the status quo and as it presents itself in this way, what it does matters.

riposte
11-09-2012, 10:01 PM
Politicians represent class interests - and the Socialist Party is not interested in attempting to influence politicians who operate in defence of the bourgeois class - it is interested in attempting to influence working class people to support socialist policies. The Socialist Party will support any reform that benefits working class people but doesn't under any circumstances, support the idea that reforms alone can solve the economic, political and social crisis faced by working class people.


Actually I am quite a happy-go-lucky, pleasant and generous individual that gets on with practically everyone on a personal level - I have an intolerence for people who attempt to distort my political views and who demonstrate pomposity in an attempt to dismiss my views.

I am in no way motivated to distort the views of the miniscule left..... but If you are a happy-go-lucky, pleasant and generous individual that gets on with practically everyone on a personal level ....... you sure fooled a lot of people reading this thread.

Baron von Biffo
11-09-2012, 10:17 PM
Politicians represent class interests - and the Socialist Party is not interested in attempting to influence politicians who operate in defence of the bourgeois class - it is interested in attempting to influence working class people to support socialist policies. The Socialist Party will support any reform that benefits working class people but doesn't under any circumstances, support the idea that reforms alone can solve the economic, political and social crisis faced by working class people.

Can you see how that could be intercepted as the SP being happy to sit back and see workers suffer rather than trying to work with others to achieve something to improve their condition?

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 10:23 PM
The Socialist Party has set a litmus test for political alliance as "sitting next to x in the Dail." Going by that measure, Joe Higgins has sat next to the lot of them including Shane Ross. The evidence is on Joe Higgins website, in the form of video recordings of this disgraceful event.
Being silly again CF


The ULA failed to establish a coherent and distinct Dail identity.
True - despite the best efforts of the Socialist Party.


A group developed in the Dail and around the CAWHT into which the SP and PBP merged. The SP is now attempting to distance itself from some of these associations.
being silly again CF - there is no one stopping Ming, Halligan or Wallace from being involved in the CAHWT - the only measure adopted by the CAHWT is that Wallace cannot act as spokesperson or play any role other than an ordinary member. Membership of the CAHWT does not equate to political support for any particular individual or party - it equates to support for a mass campaign of non-payment of the Household Charge. As such there is no need, nor has there been any effort by the Socialist Party to distance itself from anyone within the CAHWT - the Socialist Party strives for maximum unity in action within the CAHWT.


I express my views on the actions of the SP not because I like or dislike the Party, but because it presents itself as the real opposition to the status quo and as it presents itself in this way, what it does matters.
of course what it does matters - accusing it of something it doesn't do is again being silly.


I am in no way motivated to distort the views of the miniscule left..... but If you are a happy-go-lucky, pleasant and generous individual that gets on with practically everyone on a personal level ....... you sure fooled a lot of people reading this thread.
Rub you up the worng way did I? - tough sh*t.


Can you see how that could be intercepted as the SP being happy to sit back and see workers suffer rather than trying to work with others to achieve something to improve their condition?

I can't see how it could be 'intercepted' as anything - the Socialist Party fights for every and any reform it can assist in achieving for the working class. It is also well aware that your buddies will whip the reforms away again as soon as they get half a chance. As such, the only way to guarantee reforms is by the working class taking control of society from the hands of the rich elites.

C. Flower
11-09-2012, 10:38 PM
Being silly again CF


True - despite the best efforts of the Socialist Party.


being silly again CF - there is no one stopping Ming, Halligan or Wallace from being involved in the CAHWT - the only measure adopted by the CAHWT is that Wallace cannot act as spokesperson or play any role other than an ordinary member. Membership of the CAHWT does not equate to political support for any particular individual or party - it equates to support for a mass campaign of non-payment of the Household Charge. As such there is no need, nor has there been any effort by the Socialist Party to distance itself from anyone within the CAHWT - the Socialist Party strives for maximum unity in action within the CAHWT.



Who decides who can, and can't, speak for CAWHT ?

What is the Socialist Party's distinctive line/political position, within CAWHT ?

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 10:54 PM
Who decides who can, and can't, speak for CAWHT ?

What is the Socialist Party's distinctive line/political position, within CAWHT ?

1. The CAHWT National Steering Committee

2. To defeat the Household Charge

C. Flower
11-09-2012, 10:57 PM
1. The CAHWT National Steering Committee

2. To defeat the Household Charge

Does the SP have a majority on it ?

There is nothing distinctive about 2.

Jolly Red Giant
11-09-2012, 11:07 PM
Does the SP have a majority on it ?

There is nothing distinctive about 2.

1. No - the committee is comprised of delegates from campaigns all over the country. A number of SP members are delegates but the vast majority of delegates are not politically aligned with any group. You should become active in your local campaign - see how a mass campaign of opposition can operate.

2. Why does it have to be distinctive? The campaign was set up to defeat the charge and the SP are working within the campaign to achieve that goal. Are you suggesting it should have an ulterior motive?

C. Flower
11-09-2012, 11:14 PM
1. No - the committee is comprised of delegates from campaigns all over the country. A number of SP members are delegates but the vast majority of delegates are not politically aligned with any group. You should become active in your local campaign - see how a mass campaign of opposition can operate.

2. Why does it have to be distinctive? The campaign was set up to defeat the charge and the SP are working within the campaign to achieve that goal. Are you suggesting it should have an ulterior motive?

Sometimes you just crack me up :) :)

C. Flower
13-09-2012, 01:44 PM
The SWP thinks that Clare Daly should be welcome in the ULA -

http://www.swp.ie/content/what-we-say-clare-daly-and-socialist-party

Baron von Biffo
13-09-2012, 01:50 PM
The SWP thinks that Clare Daly should be welcome in the ULA -

http://www.swp.ie/content/what-we-say-clare-daly-and-socialist-party

Death notice of the ULA.

Griska
13-09-2012, 01:55 PM
The SWP thinks that Clare Daly should be welcome in the ULA -

http://www.swp.ie/content/what-we-say-clare-daly-and-socialist-party

Surely her resignation from the SP didn't necessarily mean she wasn't still part of the ULA?

Jolly Red Giant
13-09-2012, 06:31 PM
Big surprise here :eek:

Sam Lord
13-09-2012, 06:37 PM
Surely her resignation from the SP didn't necessarily mean she wasn't still part of the ULA?

No, and she has said that she wants to devote her time and energy to the ULA. But the SP think that the ULA needs to take a position on her "political support" for Wallace and seems to believe that she should comply with certain unclear requirements in ths regard if she is to remain in the ULA. How an alliance with no constitution that I know of which outlines requirements for members other than very general ones and no policies other than the few broad brushstrokes outlined for the purposes of the last election is expected to do this is not clear.

The SP pursuing their beef with Daly into the ULA could well prove to be something the alliance in its present format is unable to withstand.

Baron von Biffo
13-09-2012, 07:13 PM
The SP pursuing their beef with Daly into the ULA could well prove to be something the alliance in its present format is unable to withstand.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showpost.php?p=273196&postcount=150

Griska
13-09-2012, 07:56 PM
No, and she has said that she wants to devote her time and energy to the ULA. But the SP think that the ULA needs to take a position on her "political support" for Wallace and seems to believe that she should comply with certain unclear requirements in ths regard if she is to remain in the ULA. How an alliance with no constitution that I know of which outlines requirements for members other than very general ones and no policies other than the few broad brushstrokes outlined for the purposes of the last election is expected to do this is not clear.

The SP pursuing their beef with Daly into the ULA could well prove to be something the alliance in its present format is unable to withstand.

I'm surprised, frankly, that the alliance has lasted this long.

Sam Lord
13-09-2012, 08:08 PM
I'm surprised, frankly, that the alliance has lasted this long.

It's survival is mainly to do with the fact that since the last election it has been safely parked away in a garage with a tarpaulin pulled over it to keep it safe until needed by the SP/SWP at the next election. Daly is now tugging at the tarpaulin and saying it needs to be taken out for a run. This may result in it crashing into a wall as those on board fight over the steering wheel.