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View Full Version : Re-Unionists to have their fancy tickled again



Captain Con O'Sullivan
03-08-2012, 12:31 PM
In line with the policy of softening up opposition to 'ever closer union' between the UK and the Republic of Ireland (translated in Whitehall as 'at some point we are going to need land and it worked in the 16th century') Fine Gael's Tunbridge Wells Irish are slavering for a visit from the photogenic side of the British Royal Family.

Apparently Enda Kenny and various Irish civil servants hopeful of the opportunity for some handlicking and who knows? An eventual MBE? have invited Prince William unofficially to imitate the Grandma and have a high-speed high-security run through the Republic.

I expected this as there is certainly a moo-ing among Ireland's royalists for a sniff at the bicycle seat of monarchy in this Republic. All part of the eventual plan being cooked up in Whitehall and Dublin.

'Ireland’s leader Enda Kenny informally invited the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge (aka Prince William and Kate Middleton) to visit Ireland, last week when they were introduced at the pre-Olympic reception at Buckingham Palace.

Although the Irish Embassy in London must officially invite the royal couple before they can consider a trip it seems like likely that Prince William, who married last summer in the Irish Guards red uniform, will make a trip over to .

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Prince-William-and-Kate-Middleton-expected-to-visit-Ireland-after-Enda-Kenny-invitation-164854656.html#ixzz22U7npzA4

Richardbouvet
03-08-2012, 01:18 PM
Prince William's ma never had "a high-speed high-security run through the Republic" His Grandma did though.

Is this really such a problem? In fact, would re-union be such a problem considering the fist we have made of our "independence"?

Captain Con O'Sullivan
03-08-2012, 01:27 PM
On the first part- correct and I will amend. On the second part a 're-union' would be fine if you want to see another war.

fluffybiscuits
03-08-2012, 02:18 PM
They were wittering on about this on newstalk the other day. Willie and his mot come over, Enda hosts them and they have a big official function and we spend millions on gardai to sit there and look pretty while Eirigi have a sit out protest and then go blah blah blah. Let them over and have it done and over with !

Richardbouvet
03-08-2012, 02:48 PM
"...a 're-union' would be fine if you want to see another war."

Why? What would there be to fight about?

Captain Con O'Sullivan
03-08-2012, 03:52 PM
If you don't understand, Richard, then I doubt there is very much I can do to help enlighten you. It might well be a good thing that some castle Irish make the mistake of thinking they can wind back the clock off the back of some growing pains in Ireland.

The place could do with a good cleaning and the emergence into the daylight of a recognisable coterie of 'castle Irish' will at least help identify them. If there were to be some attempt to jam Ireland into some other sovereignty whether that were Union, German, French or other then this time around we might have the good sense to deal with them first. I often think that one major mistake of the period 1916 to 1930-ish was in not getting rid of or otherwise purging the fledgling state. It was all far too ready to allow people of uncertain loyalty to simply pretend to be Irish while folding another flag away carefully in their attic.

And of course the stupidity of a certain brand of Irishman which was much in evidence around about eight centuries ago in thinking that there was advantage to him over hsi fellows by cuddling up to a foreign master brought its own rewards.

I've seen a few comments about from people who think that it would be to their advantage to be a castle Irishman. The mistake in the past lies in not having shown them the folly of that notion.

If I hear someone ostensibly Irish in my presence suggesting that we hand away that sliver of sovereignty that hangs yet I can assure you that they will soon realise the mistake they've made.

bernadette
03-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Why is there always such a fuss if one or more of em want to come here? They come, they go and we carry on regardless. Nothing they do, not even paying our national debt, will change the mind of the republic, which with all its faults loves being a republic!

Its like arguing about the width of the privet hedge!

Captain Con O'Sullivan
03-08-2012, 04:45 PM
You are right there, bernadette. I carry no ill will towards the royals at all, nor do I carry any ill will towards Britain or the British. In fact there's rather a lot I like and admire about them.

My views on the rather obvious use of the royals to further a detectable extension of British economic interests in Ireland though are the same as they would be in viewing the EU's extension of its interests in Ireland or anyone else. The answer is that while diplomacy and good relations with neighbours is of paramount importance and something to be managed with dignity there is nothing worse than this nonsense being muttered about the Irish not being able to govern their own country.

I hate it. We are a long way off the ideal of both a democracy and a Republic but then the original republics and democracies were often a good way from the ideal on their political journeys of self-determination and the moving target of the political utopia.

It is not something to be abandoned. Ireland has some realistic problems as a nation, not least of which is an awkward understanding of democracy and the republic but I am a republican (with a small 'r') and I'll fight like hell against any notion of abandoning that journey.

And against anyone who is for the 'crack'd looking glass of a servant' as Mr Joyce had it.

riposte
03-08-2012, 05:25 PM
Why is there always such a fuss if one or more of em want to come here? They come, they go and we carry on regardless. Nothing they do, not even paying our national debt, will change the mind of the republic, which with all its faults loves being a republic!

Its like arguing about the width of the privet hedge!

I cut my privet hedge yesterday bernadette ..... it was a lot wider than I would like and sure warrants a good arguement.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
03-08-2012, 05:50 PM
They had to pass a law specifically about Leylandii hedges I think in the UK about ten years ago. Possibly because of the number of neighbourhood disputes over them, permitted width, height and so on.

In one way I wish i could remember the details. In another way I am relieved I cannot:)

Apjp
03-08-2012, 06:13 PM
Prince William's ma never had "a high-speed high-security run through the Republic" His Grandma did though.

Is this really such a problem? In fact, would re-union be such a problem considering the fist we have made of our "independence"?

Thats the problem with too many people here. Happy to let others run our lives if it gets them a quick punt. Mind you such a union couldn't possibly encroach our lives any more than our current eu position.

ireland will only change when people here demand the right to make decisions for ourselves. Not for the church, the brits, brussels or the gombeens, but for the benefit of people here.

Holly
03-08-2012, 06:36 PM
Having members of the English royal family come to Ireland as foreign visitors can make the country appear truly as independent as other sovereign states and not viewed as a former colony.

bernadette
03-08-2012, 08:21 PM
All. Having problems with my laptop so apologies if I miss anyone out....

I see visits by the royals or any British PM as normal between countries. I don't see them as threatening. For that to happen would take a major change of mind here and I doubt that's possible. Nor am I reduced by the countrys debts. Other countries have similar problems but ours as far as I can tell appear to be the deliberate acts of various members of the Dail etc.

Ireland is a young republic and we seem to lack confidence in some areas, that maybe partly because of the Brits but its not all of it. I'm not sure what the problem is, being me I suspect the RCC and the Brits but others may know better.

There are more arguments about hedging than anything else! I see a similarity..

C. Flower
03-08-2012, 08:45 PM
They had to pass a law specifically about Leylandii hedges I think in the UK about ten years ago. Possibly because of the number of neighbourhood disputes over them, permitted width, height and so on.

In one way I wish i could remember the details. In another way I am relieved I cannot:)

Leylandii are a man-made hybrid plant, less than 100 years in existence. Not even the oldest has stopped growing yet. There have been a number of fracas between neighbours over their intrusiveness. Some very serious indeed.

Richardbouvet
03-08-2012, 09:38 PM
" It was all far too ready to allow people of uncertain loyalty to simply pretend to be Irish while folding another flag away carefully in their attic."

Con, they were called Protestants, and it sounds like almost all of them would have been forced to leave the state if you had had your way.

I think that your post is the sort that helps to facilitate the emergence into the daylight of the sectarian, ethnic cleansing nature of much of what passes for Irish "republicanism".

In the film "The wind that shakes the barley" a unionist landlord, about to be executed for spying for the British, predicts that an independent Ireland will be a "priest ridden backwater." He was right.

And what freedoms has our independence given us so far? The freedom not to have a National Health Service. The freedom not to have proper tenant protection laws (oh, the irony!!), the freedom not to have a right to roam over our own hills and valleys - all of which we would now have under UK law.

Our independence was won by a class of petty-bourgeois kulaks who were not fit to run a country, and so far, nothing seems to have changed.

5intheface
03-08-2012, 10:01 PM
" It was all far too ready to allow people of uncertain loyalty to simply pretend to be Irish while folding another flag away carefully in their attic."

Con, they were called Protestants, and it sounds like almost all of them would have been forced to leave the state if you had had your way.

I think that your post is the sort that helps to facilitate the emergence into the daylight of the sectarian, ethnic cleansing nature of much of what passes for Irish "republicanism".

In the film "The wind that shakes the barley" a unionist landlord, about to be executed for spying for the British, predicts that an independent Ireland will be a "priest ridden backwater." He was right.

And what freedoms has our independence given us so far? The freedom not to have a National Health Service. The freedom not to have proper tenant protection laws (oh, the irony!!), the freedom not to have a right to roam over our own hills and valleys - all of which we would now have under UK law.

Our independence was won by a class of petty-bourgeois kulaks who were not fit to run a country, and so far, nothing seems to have changed.

I imagine Loach was making a point after the fact as opposed to quoting what a Landlord actually said.

The film points to the danger of both the Church and Gombeenism raised by Republicans as well the good gentleman farmer.

Count Bobulescu
03-08-2012, 10:30 PM
I’m always amused by the way some get in a snit about the British Royals, in a manner that would never happen with the Belgian, Dutch, Swedish, or Spanish royals. It's a Brit issue, not a royal issue. Seeing dragons where there be none. Let em come, do their thing, go, and the sun will still rise in the east.

bernadette
03-08-2012, 10:39 PM
I’m always amused by the way some get in a snit about the British Royals, in a manner that would never happen with the Belgian, Dutch, Swedish, or Spanish royals. It's a Brit issue, not a royal issue. Seeing dragons where there be none. Let em come, do their thing, go, and the sun will still rise in the east.

I think the fuss about the royals gives them more significance than they have or deserve. So many work in England, have family and friends there, the British royals are very well known to us.

The British royals are not dragons! Fire and brimstone are in another place...

5intheface
03-08-2012, 10:42 PM
I’m always amused by the way some get in a snit about the British Royals, in a manner that would never happen with the Belgian, Dutch, Swedish, or Spanish royals. It's a Brit issue, not a royal issue. Seeing dragons where there be none. Let em come, do their thing, go, and the sun will still rise in the east.

With all respect Count, that's a ridiculous post. Of course the problem is overwhelmingly British. None of the other nations mentioned has conducted an on-off war for most of the last millennium and still holds jurisdiction over a large part of the island. And it's also clear that a large section of the political and media classes are not fawning over any other royalty with a view to eventually becoming part of their commonwealth or even more.

Shaadi
03-08-2012, 10:49 PM
And what freedoms has our independence given us so far? The freedom not to have a National Health Service. The freedom not to have proper tenant protection laws (oh, the irony!!), the freedom not to have a right to roam over our own hills and valleys - all of which we would now have under UK law.The Democratic freedom to make our own decisions. That we as a people lacked the radicalism to establish a true Republic is down to our own failings and the cancerous conservatism instilled in the people by that other Empire. Now that they've been seen off, we've the opportunity to finish the job and finally create that true Republic.


Our independence was won by a class of petty-bourgeois kulaks who were not fit to run a country, and so far, nothing seems to have changed.You're engaging in a fair bit of stereotyping there yourself. The inability of Labour to offer a credible left wing of Govt when in power left the working class disillusioned and still does. Whether it was the Spring Tide or the potential Gilmore Gale, ye blew it, heal thyself first physician before pointing the finger. Spring, Ho Chi Quinn, and all the rest of the pseudo socialists have much more in common with the Kulak class than they care to admit.

Count Bobulescu
03-08-2012, 10:55 PM
With all respect Count, that's a ridiculous post. Of course the problem is overwhelmingly British. None of the other nations mentioned has conducted an on-off war for most of the last millennium and still holds jurisdiction over a large part of the island. And it's also clear that a large section of the political and media classes are not fawning over any other royalty with a view to eventually becoming part of their commonwealth or even more.
Thank you for acknowledging my point about it being a British rather than royal issue. Any discussion about Re-Unionization, or not, should be conducted on policy and politics and without reference to the royals. They, like Michael D, are simply figureheads.

For the record, I’m agnostic on the issue. I see good and bad too it.

5intheface
03-08-2012, 11:03 PM
T They, like Michael D, are simply figureheads.


That's where I would differ greatly. That would be the case for the Royals of any other nation except Britain which cannot, in Irish terms, be regarded purely as just another sovereign nation.

Ogiol
03-08-2012, 11:16 PM
Sílim, ag an phóinte seo, gur rud tabhachta é an gaeilge a thaibhairt isteach san comhra seo ;) Mór an trua nach raibh mé i mo bhall riamh ! ei, risteard ??

5intheface
03-08-2012, 11:25 PM
Sílim, ag an phóinte seo, gur rud tabhachta é an gaeilge a thaibhairt isteach san comhra seo ;) Mór an trua nach raibh mé i mo bhall riamh ! ei, risteard ??

Bhuel tá tú anseo anois. :)

C. Flower
04-08-2012, 07:24 AM
I think the fuss about the royals gives them more significance than they have or deserve. So many work in England, have family and friends there, the British royals are very well known to us.

The British royals are not dragons! Fire and brimstone are in another place...

If you wan't a royal family for the entertainment factor, or to have someone to defer to, why not have an Irish one. Why import ?

Captain Con O'Sullivan
04-08-2012, 10:59 AM
I have no objection at all to visits by foreign dignitaries and it doesn't matter to me where they come from.

What concerns me is that I am definitely seeing what looks to me as a softening up process not based around normalisation of relations but I think an extension of British interest in Ireland under cover of that apparent normalisation. I think it is purely economic from the Westminster point of view and much of it has to do with another attempt at possible resource lebensraum.

I predicted at least a year ago that this visit by the photogenics would follow quite soon after the visit by the head of the family. I'm predicting also a campaign by the Ruth Dudley-Edwards types against celebrations of 1916 in due course. I think there is a crew in Irish affairs based around the Times' mercantile class in Dublin who are behind this regular appearance of questions about whether independence was a good move or not.

I smell a campaign somewhere in it.

C. Flower
04-08-2012, 11:05 AM
I have no objection at all to visits by foreign dignitaries and it doesn't matter to me where they come from.

What concerns me is that I am definitely seeing what looks to me as a softening up process not based around normalisation of relations but I think an extension of British interest in Ireland under cover of that apparent normalisation. I think it is purely economic from the Westminster point of view and much of it has to do with another attempt at possible resource lebensraum.

I predicted at least a year ago that this visit by the photogenics would follow quite soon after the visit by the head of the family. I'm predicting also a campaign by the Ruth Dudley-Edwards types against celebrations of 1916 in due course. I think there is a crew in Irish affairs based around the Times' mercantile class in Dublin who are behind this regular appearance of questions about whether independence was a good move or not.

I smell a campaign somewhere in it.

Part of a very big campaign called the GFA.

A man arrested after several men were seen climbing down a man hole outside Dublin Castle yesterday evening.

Searches ongoing.

This is being reported by RTE as a security / visiting dignatories story.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0804/dublin-castle-alert.html

Captain Con O'Sullivan
04-08-2012, 11:19 AM
It is a lot more than the GFA, Cactus, and it is concentrated not on the North but on the South. The reason for it I believe is simple- from the point of view of Westminster it is an exploratory charm offensive in the south not just around normalisation of an old conflict but because the UK itself is massively overcrowded and must import much of the food it requires.

The scarcity of farmland- given the pressures on long supply lines and oil depletion around the world means that the UK in the future must source basic foods closer to home. I can see that developing in the UK as massive factory farms are again being mooted on the beef/pork side of things and with the urban sprawl of over 70million people in and around large cities there really is nowhere near enough farmland in the UK to feed its people.

Ireland is what- three fifths the size of the UK and is predominantly farmland with a population of four million odd.

My own theory in short is that beyond the GFA and Northern Ireland there is something else in the wind here and the conditions are evident to lend credence to Westminster eyeing up the island next door with a fresh outlook.

I hope I'm wrong. And I wouldn't say much about it except that the sort of soft campaign that comes with any such maneouvering is in evidence.

bernadette
04-08-2012, 01:07 PM
If you wan't a royal family for the entertainment factor, or to have someone to defer to, why not have an Irish one. Why import ?

I don't mind the idea of a longer term presidency. I think we're missing McAleese. I didn't have much time for her - for years, but I grew accustomed and then I had to, grudgingly, admit she was doing quite a good job and now I think we miss her! She is, as far as I know, one of the few to hand money back to the exchequer.....

I don't like the idea of royalty British or anywhere but I don't care if the Brits come here. It makes no difference. I know some say its a softening up process but for what?

I don't believe we would vote for reunification but that doesn't have to mean we hate them. Apart from family and friends there I could care less.

C. Flower
04-08-2012, 01:09 PM
It is a lot more than the GFA, Cactus, and it is concentrated not on the North but on the South. The reason for it I believe is simple- from the point of view of Westminster it is an exploratory charm offensive in the south not just around normalisation of an old conflict but because the UK itself is massively overcrowded and must import much of the food it requires.

The scarcity of farmland- given the pressures on long supply lines and oil depletion around the world means that the UK in the future must source basic foods closer to home. I can see that developing in the UK as massive factory farms are again being mooted on the beef/pork side of things and with the urban sprawl of over 70million people in and around large cities there really is nowhere near enough farmland in the UK to feed its people.

Ireland is what- three fifths the size of the UK and is predominantly farmland with a population of four million odd.

My own theory in short is that beyond the GFA and Northern Ireland there is something else in the wind here and the conditions are evident to lend credence to Westminster eyeing up the island next door with a fresh outlook.

I hope I'm wrong. And I wouldn't say much about it except that the sort of soft campaign that comes with any such maneouvering is in evidence.

The GFA had a much bigger legal effect on the South than it did on the North.

bernadette
04-08-2012, 01:13 PM
It is a lot more than the GFA, Cactus, and it is concentrated not on the North but on the South. The reason for it I believe is simple- from the point of view of Westminster it is an exploratory charm offensive in the south not just around normalisation of an old conflict but because the UK itself is massively overcrowded and must import much of the food it requires.

The scarcity of farmland- given the pressures on long supply lines and oil depletion around the world means that the UK in the future must source basic foods closer to home. I can see that developing in the UK as massive factory farms are again being mooted on the beef/pork side of things and with the urban sprawl of over 70million people in and around large cities there really is nowhere near enough farmland in the UK to feed its people.

Ireland is what- three fifths the size of the UK and is predominantly farmland with a population of four million odd.

My own theory in short is that beyond the GFA and Northern Ireland there is something else in the wind here and the conditions are evident to lend credence to Westminster eyeing up the island next door with a fresh outlook.

I hope I'm wrong. And I wouldn't say much about it except that the sort of soft campaign that comes with any such maneouvering is in evidence.

What would be wrong with increased agricultural trade between us? I think it makes sense! and that it would be very good for our farmers. The huge fields/factory farms are surely not likely to come about except by our choice. Our farms are owned by us. It may be that in time there could be more cooperatives is that a bad thing?

I see increased trade as benefitial and inevitable. If we sell ourselves short, again, that will be our fault not theirs.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
04-08-2012, 01:18 PM
All for it, bernadette. Agricultural products are still pretty much the only indigenous Irish industry. I'd just prefer the ownership of it stayed in Irish hands.

Shaadi
04-08-2012, 01:36 PM
It is a lot more than the GFA, Cactus, and it is concentrated not on the North but on the South. The reason for it I believe is simple- from the point of view of Westminster it is an exploratory charm offensive in the south not just around normalisation of an old conflict but because the UK itself is massively overcrowded and must import much of the food it requires.

The scarcity of farmland- given the pressures on long supply lines and oil depletion around the world means that the UK in the future must source basic foods closer to home. I can see that developing in the UK as massive factory farms are again being mooted on the beef/pork side of things and with the urban sprawl of over 70million people in and around large cities there really is nowhere near enough farmland in the UK to feed its people.

Ireland is what- three fifths the size of the UK and is predominantly farmland with a population of four million odd.

My own theory in short is that beyond the GFA and Northern Ireland there is something else in the wind here and the conditions are evident to lend credence to Westminster eyeing up the island next door with a fresh outlook.

I hope I'm wrong. And I wouldn't say much about it except that the sort of soft campaign that comes with any such maneouvering is in evidence.In terms of long term planning, it's in Britain's strategic interest to promote good relations with us, like a British version of the Monroe Doctrine. Proper long term planning would dictate that they cover all the bases, Military security, Food security, Energy security.

We're at a point in history where the Global power balance is shifting from West to East, where the CNR over the next few decades will approach majority status in NI and the Scots are threatening to go their own way. With that scenario looming. London could be left outside the EU core by the developing 2 tier European Union and it's own publics hostility to the EU.

We're their back door, through out their history they have always seen us as a possible conduit for a potential foreign threat to them, hence their desire to Anglicise us through the centuries.

I believe that their long term plan is to give up the North in return for a security accommodation with Ireland, where we give them access to our waters and skies, a modern version of the Treaty Ports.

The recent charm offensive and subtle pulling us back into the family should be seen in that context.,

bernadette
04-08-2012, 01:41 PM
All for it, bernadette. Agricultural products are still pretty much the only indigenous Irish industry. I'd just prefer the ownership of it stayed in Irish hands.

But why should it change hands? The Brits may want to buy but we would have to sell and we could introduce charges etc. making that er, difficult, that's assuming anyone wanted to sell.

Its about confidence we need to be more confident in dealing with the Brits we don't need them but they almost certainly will need our produce. I've a feeling that as travel becomes easier and it will one of our problems will be commuter traffic.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
04-08-2012, 01:43 PM
I would say that is on the money Shaadi. To the UK Foreign Office we are always either a threat behind them or an opportunity before them.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with reconciliation. It will be based on an economic analysis of possible advantage to the UK.

Which is fine. Because if the UK needs a whacking increase in foods sourced in Ireland then all to the good for us as sellers.

But we have a terrible habit of giving away resources and seeing Ministers disappear into a large new house just built after they have apparently sweated buckets in tense negotions on behalf of the country.

Or translated directly from the Gaelge - 'Here's your envelope, Mick.' And I see nothing to indicate that we have run out of 'Envelope Micks'.

Apjp
04-08-2012, 05:30 PM
" It was all far too ready to allow people of uncertain loyalty to simply pretend to be Irish while folding another flag away carefully in their attic."

Con, they were called Protestants, and it sounds like almost all of them would have been forced to leave the state if you had had your way.

I think that your post is the sort that helps to facilitate the emergence into the daylight of the sectarian, ethnic cleansing nature of much of what passes for Irish "republicanism".

In the film "The wind that shakes the barley" a unionist landlord, about to be executed for spying for the British, predicts that an independent Ireland will be a "priest ridden backwater." He was right.

And what freedoms has our independence given us so far? The freedom not to have a National Health Service. The freedom not to have proper tenant protection laws (oh, the irony!!), the freedom not to have a right to roam over our own hills and valleys - all of which we would now have under UK law.

Our independence was won by a class of petty-bourgeois kulaks who were not fit to run a country, and so far, nothing seems to have changed.

Are you saying we should have stayed in Britain as a subject serf like race? Judging by your previous comments with how Home Rule would have more or less been the solution to all our problems and your comments here, you seem to regret the modicum of independence the state got in 1922.

C. Flower
04-08-2012, 05:38 PM
In terms of long term planning, it's in Britain's strategic interest to promote good relations with us, like a British version of the Monroe Doctrine. Proper long term planning would dictate that they cover all the bases, Military security, Food security, Energy security.

We're at a point in history where the Global power balance is shifting from West to East, where the CNR over the next few decades will approach majority status in NI and the Scots are threatening to go their own way. With that scenario looming. London could be left outside the EU core by the developing 2 tier European Union and it's own publics hostility to the EU.

We're their back door, through out their history they have always seen us as a possible conduit for a potential foreign threat to them, hence their desire to Anglicise us through the centuries.

I believe that their long term plan is to give up the North in return for a security accommodation with Ireland, where we give them access to our waters and skies, a modern version of the Treaty Ports.

The recent charm offensive and subtle pulling us back into the family should be seen in that context.,

Give up the North, in return for the whole of Ireland, some form of Protectorate.

Our economies are very closely entwined and we now owe them billions as part of the bailout, on goodness knows what terms.

@Richard - take a look at Wales and see what shape it is in.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
04-08-2012, 07:16 PM
Exactly. There are some damn fools in Dublin mainly who seem to think it would be good for business to join the Union just as the Union is looking rocky- or moo about joining the Commonwealth.

That is exactly what would happen to Ireland- it would be a handout for Westminster insiders and the clowns who opened the gates would be slung an OBE and a pint at a Buck House garden party to keep them quiet.

As a nation, historically, we have been afflicted by the dopiness and self interest of our own as much as any external influence. In both physical and metaphysical colonial experiences. No one ever had to invade Ireland- they simply had to wait for a handy invitation from some home-grown clown in trouble with his neighbours.

Some things don't change.

Apjp
04-08-2012, 10:09 PM
Exactly. There are some damn fools in Dublin mainly who seem to think it would be good for business to join the Union just as the Union is looking rocky- or moo about joining the Commonwealth.

That is exactly what would happen to Ireland- it would be a handout for Westminster insiders and the clowns who opened the gates would be slung an OBE and a pint at a Buck House garden party to keep them quiet.

As a nation, historically, we have been afflicted by the dopiness and self interest of our own as much as any external influence. In both physical and metaphysical colonial experiences. No one ever had to invade Ireland- they simply had to wait for a handy invitation from some home-grown clown in trouble with his neighbours.

Some things don't change.

Im betting your thinking of the deposed King of Leinster line here?

The worrying thing is our future either lays as a european/troika colony or a re-colonised member of the Union. It's hard to see anybody here bothering to complain captain. Survival is all Paddy knows, whatever the cost to himself. What's it been now? 4 years since we handed Ireland over to the bankers financially and 2 years since we handed Ireland over to the imperialist forces politically and economically. Seen any major protests aside from small issues like the household charge? Anyone seen anything hinting at a desire for change in their local town? This place is seemingly doomed to rest a conservative quagmire that the natives are afraid to run.

fluffybiscuits
05-08-2012, 02:59 AM
Im betting your thinking of the deposed King of Leinster line here?

The worrying thing is our future either lays as a european/troika colony or a re-colonised member of the Union. It's hard to see anybody here bothering to complain captain. Survival is all Paddy knows, whatever the cost to himself. What's it been now? 4 years since we handed Ireland over to the bankers financially and 2 years since we handed Ireland over to the imperialist forces politically and economically. Seen any major protests aside from small issues like the household charge? Anyone seen anything hinting at a desire for change in their local town? This place is seemingly doomed to rest a conservative quagmire that the natives are afraid to run.

Survival at the moment would entail us joining a union with the British under some sort of rule where we are semi autonomous but they take the mantle where our financial and defence arrangements are concerned. We owe them in the region of about six billion and probably a whole lot more too but what would our biggest barrier be? Republicanism in its most incendery form. Cue us joining the British and a spate of bombings and empty speeches from theose who claimed they fopught for British rule. We are not going to please everyone. It may not be the correct measure to do politically but we have toi ensure that we ensure that any decision made is in the interest of the people.

Apjp
05-08-2012, 06:14 PM
Survival at the moment would entail us joining a union with the British under some sort of rule where we are semi autonomous but they take the mantle where our financial and defence arrangements are concerned. We owe them in the region of about six billion and probably a whole lot more too but what would our biggest barrier be? Republicanism in its most incendery form. Cue us joining the British and a spate of bombings and empty speeches from theose who claimed they fopught for British rule. We are not going to please everyone. It may not be the correct measure to do politically but we have toi ensure that we ensure that any decision made is in the interest of the people.

The problem with this society is that even the government decides what we get to decide. We won't be deciding our future, the rent boys in Leinster house will. We don't exactly live in a democracy. Electing a government is all we get to do and modern elections are farcical. None of this however means that we should refer to our great deference to foreign rule just because it stopped some of our ancestors from starving.

Shaadi
05-08-2012, 08:09 PM
The problem with this society is that even the government decides what we get to decide. We won't be deciding our future, the rent boys in Leinster house will. We don't exactly live in a democracy. Electing a government is all we get to do and modern elections are farcical. None of this however means that we should refer to our great deference to foreign rule just because it stopped some of our ancestors from starving.We live in a democracy, there's nothing stopping the electorate from turfing out politicians every five years. We give the status quo politicians our blessing because we're as corrupt as they are.

You teach people how to treat you. We tell the politicians to carry on as usual by electing politicians that we know are not interested in change. We b1tch and moan about them but lack the radicalism to try something new.

All the bitching by the public about not getting a vote on the bailout was hollow. They could have put a few hundred thousand people on the street and demanded a say, they got the opportunity to give their retrospective opinion on it when access to a second bailout was the selling point of the Fiscal Treaty. They gave their verdict, it turns out they were full of crap about being against the first bailout.

Bad and all as our politicians are, a few hundred thousand protesters on the street will get their attention. We're just too comfortable and too venal to tackle them.

Apjp
05-08-2012, 09:16 PM
We live in a democracy, there's nothing stopping the electorate from turfing out politicians every five years. We give the status quo politicians our blessing because we're as corrupt as they are.

You teach people how to treat you. We tell the politicians to carry on as usual by electing politicians that we know are not interested in change. We b1tch and moan about them but lack the radicalism to try something new.

All the bitching by the public about not getting a vote on the bailout was hollow. They could have put a few hundred thousand people on the street and demanded a say, they got the opportunity to give their retrospective opinion on it when access to a second bailout was the selling point of the Fiscal Treaty. They gave their verdict, it turns out they were full of crap about being against the first bailout.

Bad and all as our politicians are, a few hundred thousand protesters on the street will get their attention. We're just too comfortable and too venal to tackle them.

Well I'm not part of that we anyways but I get your point. I share it as well but my point is Ireland is not a very democratic society. I would say that referenda aren't exactly democratic either considering the fear agenda exploited by the media here. Yes people are gullible, but there's something disturbing about a 'democracy' that scaremongers its citizens.Liam Mellows had it right not the will of the people but the fear of the people and a society that was started by fear will be afraid a long time.

fluffybiscuits
06-08-2012, 09:58 PM
The problem with this society is that even the government decides what we get to decide. We won't be deciding our future, the rent boys in Leinster house will. We don't exactly live in a democracy. Electing a government is all we get to do and modern elections are farcical. None of this however means that we should refer to our great deference to foreign rule just because it stopped some of our ancestors from starving.

Shaadi summed it up good. We are giving the rent boys who run the country a mandate to screw up the country again via economically destroying the country and throwing the working class into a den of uncertainty. We do need a revolution of sorts but as the words of a song I like go


Cause I can’t change, I can’t change the world alone
I need you all, everybody, start dreaming of it
And take your step that’s gonna make a difference and change your world