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fluffybiscuits
25-07-2012, 04:21 PM
A long term Labour supporter in conversation last night was discussing what he felt was wrong with Labour. Labour was set up and has its roots in the working class and trade unions within Ireland but has now been taken over by the D4 intelligensia (sic) and other factions and its original roots have been sidelined. James Larkin and Co originally set up Labour as a part of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions but now nearly a hundred years later Labour seems vastly different from what is was originally set up for. We are seeing attacks on the working class in terms of cuts to social welfare and cuts to other benefits from the Minister for Misery, Joan Burton and then we have the rest of the Labour brigade who rightly are fighting for civil rights for the gay community (of which I fight for aswell) but they seem to have completely forgotten that there is other areas where they are to meant to be fighting. There is household charges, wage cuts, job losses, USC , income tax being potentially raised and other numerous issues and Labour has stood idly by while all these have been brought in. Social issues have taken precedence , Im behind them in their support for gay marriage and abortion but alone is not enough to fight for the rights of the working class whom they have abandoned. In the next election, if they get savaged they have no one to blame but themselves. Gilmore and Co better buck up and fight for working class rights. The issues they are fighting for are across class but they need to remember there is other issues too.

Richardbouvet
25-07-2012, 04:38 PM
Yes, I suspect that Gay marriage and abortion are being used by some senior figures in the party as a way of keeping Labour looking distinct from FG while still allowing FG to rule the roost on economic issues. If so, it won't work for long.

Rank-and-file Labour comrades are beginning to discuss what Labour needs to do at this point. I think as the year goes on, dissent by party members from government economic policies will grow more obvious.

I will be suggesting the following 4 concessions from FG as the price for Labour continuing in this coalition:
(1) Faster progress towars single-tier healh care
(2) Collective bargaining rights
(3) A wealth tax or a rise in income tax for high earners
(4) No privatisations.

fluffybiscuits
25-07-2012, 04:45 PM
Yes, I suspect that Gay marriage and abortion are being used by some senior figures in the party as a way of keeping Labour looking distinct from FG while still allowing FG to rule the roost on economic issues. If so, it won't work for long.

Rank-and-file Labour comrades are beginning to discuss what Labour needs to do at this point. I think as the year goes on, dissent by party members from government economic policies will grow more obvious.

I will be suggesting the following 4 concessions from FG as the price for Labour continuing in this coalition:
(1) Faster progress towars single-tier healh care
(2) Collective bargaining rights
(3) A wealth tax or a rise in income tax for high earners
(4) No privatisations.

+1 (We agree on something ;) ) . From what I understand the issues that they are looking at are quite divisive with some of the older members not agreeing to the direction (I cant remember where I read that or heard it so I might have that mixed up). Certainly we need a move towards a single tier health system , the current system in place is legal extortion with the prices they are charging in some cases . Labour need to man up and look at the bigger picture and not be a snapping at the heals of FG.

riposte
25-07-2012, 04:50 PM
Yes, I suspect that Gay marriage and abortion are being used by some senior figures in the party as a way of keeping Labour looking distinct from FG while still allowing FG to rule the roost on economic issues. If so, it won't work for long.

Rank-and-file Labour comrades are beginning to discuss what Labour needs to do at this point. I think as the year goes on, dissent by party members from government economic policies will grow more obvious.

I will be suggesting the following 4 concessions from FG as the price for Labour continuing in this coalition:



(1) Faster progress towars single-tier healh care
Ie ... Universal Health Insurance to guarantee the wealth of Doctors and Consultants.



(2) Collective bargaining rights
Not much use to the 450,000 unemployed.



(3) A wealth tax or a rise in income tax for high earners
.........as a quid pro quo for reductions Social Welfare?



(4) No privatisations.
Privatisations have already been agreed.

Garibaldy
25-07-2012, 04:56 PM
I wouldn't place any great expectation of massive dissent from the Labour rank and file. It's hardly like everyone didn't know from past experience where this was headed in coalition. On top of which, it's been obviously for two decades Rabbite and Gilmore have no real political principles, and they were both elected leader with massive support from said rank and file.

Seán Ryan
25-07-2012, 05:51 PM
I like it that the Labour Party are doing what they're doing. Over the years they've made lots of nice sounds. But sound is easy to make. Everything else requires effort, commitment and intent.

Hopefully they'll be as relevant as the Green Party come the next election. Nobody should be allowed to take credit for what someone else did. Larkin and Connolly would spit on the Labour Party and its acolytes. And they'd have spat on them long ago.

I'm tempted to say that the downfall of the Party was when the Sticky cuckoo chicks started to fling the other chicks out of the nest. But the truth of the matter is that the nest was full of offal and crap when the Sticky cuckoo eggs were spewed into it.

riposte
25-07-2012, 06:07 PM
I like it that the Labour Party are doing what they're doing. Over the years they've made lots of nice sounds. But sound is easy to make. Everything else requires effort, commitment and intent.

Hopefully they'll be as relevant as the Green Party come the next election. Nobody should be allowed to take credit for what someone else did. Larkin and Connolly would spit on the Labour Party and its acolytes. And they'd have spat on them long ago.

I'm tempted to say that the downfall of the Party was when the Sticky cuckoo chicks started to fling the other chicks out of the nest. But the truth of the matter is that the nest was full of offal and crap when the Sticky cuckoo eggs were spewed into it.

That's all very Oral Seán

Baron von Biffo
25-07-2012, 06:18 PM
Yes, I suspect that Gay marriage and abortion are being used by some senior figures in the party as a way of keeping Labour looking distinct from FG while still allowing FG to rule the roost on economic issues. If so, it won't work for long.

Rank-and-file Labour comrades are beginning to discuss what Labour needs to do at this point. I think as the year goes on, dissent by party members from government economic policies will grow more obvious.

I will be suggesting the following 4 concessions from FG as the price for Labour continuing in this coalition:
(1) Faster progress towars single-tier healh care
(2) Collective bargaining rights
(3) A wealth tax or a rise in income tax for high earners
(4) No privatisations.

You might as well ask for unicorns.

The Lab negotiating team failed utterly after the GE. They allowed FG to have Finance and that meant that Lab would never be more than the FG mudguard as they were in the 70s.

Richardbouvet
25-07-2012, 07:52 PM
The first 2 of the 4 proposed demands I mentioned (sigle tier health and collective bargaining) are in the programme for government, so FG cannot credibly refuse to move on them if Labour demands it.

The 3rd demand, no privatisations, was passed by the conference in Galway, so there is no doubt that the rank and file want that.

disability student
25-07-2012, 08:02 PM
On the face of it, Green party seems to be better than the Labour party. To be honest with you, i don't give a fig about Labour as they have failed. Lot of people are waking up to the fact that Labour is no longer working class party, which they claimed to be. Look at Gimme more whose past membership consists of Dem Left, WP et al makes you wonder which true allegiance does he belong ? He is seen as a careerist from my point of view and i refused to shake hands with him back then. Anyway,their (Labour) hearts isn't centered on a fairer society the society in general but themselves with gold plated pensions set up for life.

I wonder why, didn't the rank and file members of Lab party protest at the direction that Lab is taking... ? any resignations of members?

Saoirse go Deo
25-07-2012, 09:59 PM
Labour died with Connolly imo...

If they had have waited they would have been the majority party in govt next time around, but of course certain people would have been too old by then...

Baron von Biffo
25-07-2012, 10:01 PM
If the had have waited they would have been the majority party in govt next time around, but of course certain people would have been too old by then...

In a nutshell.

Shaadi
25-07-2012, 11:12 PM
What does Labour stand for? I'd like to have a reason to vote for them but their liberalism doesn't make up for their other shortcomings.

All I see is Middle class liberalism/economics combined with guarding the PS and taking care of their own.

Jolly Red Giant
26-07-2012, 02:21 PM
The Lab negotiating team failed utterly after the GE. They allowed FG to have Finance and that meant that Lab would never be more than the FG mudguard as they were in the 70s.
From their perspective the LP negotiating team didn't fail utterly - there was no disagreement on political or economic programme - the only discussions were on how to divvy up the spoils of office.

bormotello
26-07-2012, 02:52 PM
James Larkin and Co originally set up Labour as a part of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions but now nearly a hundred years later Labour seems vastly different from what is was originally set up for.

It is more question why ICTU don't represent workers anymore rather than why Labour don't represent ICTU

Richardbouvet
26-07-2012, 02:54 PM
Unfortunately, it seems that crucial areas of economic policy were stitched up before the election. We disgracefully dropped our support for a 48% rate of income tax for high earners just before the election, with no conference mandate to do so. We also neglected to campaign for the Kenny report.

On a "This week in politics" programme before polling day, Pat Rabbitte refused to deny that "back channels" were already in operation between Labour and FG.

So yes, all this did happen, but the real fight is only starting. A collapse in the polls is going to make the younger backbenchers very amenable to pressure from rank-and-file members.

That is why I am against anyone resigning from the party. We will need all the progressives to stay in there.

Garibaldy
26-07-2012, 04:39 PM
Unfortunately, it seems that crucial areas of economic policy were stitched up before the election. We disgracefully dropped our support for a 48% rate of income tax for high earners just before the election, with no conference mandate to do so. We also neglected to campaign for the Kenny report.

On a "This week in politics" programme before polling day, Pat Rabbitte refused to deny that "back channels" were already in operation between Labour and FG.

So yes, all this did happen, but the real fight is only starting. A collapse in the polls is going to make the younger backbenchers very amenable to pressure from rank-and-file members.

That is why I am against anyone resigning from the party. We will need all the progressives to stay in there.

Isn't this roughly the same argument that has been made since DL folded itself into Labour, that it could be pushed to the left? The whole thing was and is nonsense.

Richardbouvet
26-07-2012, 04:56 PM
Garibaldy, there are now a lot of nervous backbenchers at the start of their political careers. They are no fools. Something's gotta give.

Garibaldy
26-07-2012, 06:39 PM
Garibaldy, there are now a lot of nervous backbenchers at the start of their political careers. They are no fools. Something's gotta give.

I think they are more scared of the leadership than the rank and file from what I can see. I suspect they will give in the wrong direction

Baron von Biffo
26-07-2012, 09:00 PM
From their perspective the LP negotiating team didn't fail utterly - there was no disagreement on political or economic programme - the only discussions were on how to divvy up the spoils of office.

Quite. It was however a very short term deal. Because they gave Finance to FG they don't have the strength to assert themselves in government so they are, for all practical purposes, just lobby fodder for FG. That will cost them very dearly at the next GE and rightly so. Not because they should be punished - that would be an idiotic motivation for voters - but because they abandoned policy for office. If you can't rely on a party to implement its policy then there's no point voting for it.

fluffybiscuits
27-07-2012, 12:07 AM
Quite. It was however a very short term deal. Because they gave Finance to FG they don't have the strength to assert themselves in government so they are, for all practical purposes, just lobby fodder for FG. That will cost them very dearly at the next GE and rightly so. Not because they should be punished - that would be an idiotic motivation for voters - but because they abandoned policy for office. If you can't rely on a party to implement its policy then there's no point voting for it.



They set themselves up for the fall the minute they hopped into bed and sold themselves to Fine Gael. Labour are nothing but a minor party now and can only shoot themselves in the foot. Any decision now made by Fine Gael now means that Labour are going to be tainted. Gilmore and the rest wont stand up the rest of FG. Lucy Creighton shooting her gob off about gay marriage and Labour have not said a word to her. There is also the public differences such as Moan's cuts in social welfare which were dismissed by FG werent they?

simonj
29-07-2012, 12:26 PM
My mum had lunch recently with a former Labour minister who is also an old family friend.

The former minister said they feared that Labour was going to lose a lot of younger members to SF - my mum said it was already happening.

After years of membership I had been unhappy with Labour for some time, but finally left after Lisbon II

I feel they have totally sold out - after the last elections for example I feel they made a bad mistake joining FG - they should have let FG and FF (two cheeks of the one arse) form some kind of minority government/voting pact and let them hang together.

But the ego's of "The Student Princes" - Rabitte and Gilmore did not allow for that.

The current Labour party is being run and controlled by former Democratic Left / Workers Party people.
When Rabbitte was leader and retained the same amount of seats in the 2007 election, that was a win within his mindset - having 20 deputies as opposed to 6 with him, so he was happy.

As a brief aside Rabbitte as minister for comms, natural resources etc. has not instigated an investigation into the Corrib field deal.
He goes along with the mantra that it would be too expensive for us to develop a Statoil system, he does not question the civil servants or the vested interests.
No-one will question the Providence oil deal because Sir Tony O Reillys son owns that - dont mess about ith the media I guess.

Gilmore and the others have gone along with the FF birthed bailout.

On the Democratic Left / Workers Party note, dont forget Gilmore and Rabbitte were instrumental in 1997/2004 in not supporting a run by MD Higgins for the Aras, they wanted to end the old Labour profile, and Gilmore would have preferred David Norris to be President in place of Michael D whose independence of mind has always worried him.

In essence, the Labour parlamentary body do not pay much attention to the grass roots of the party, happy at the trough and in the limelight.

For staters what is needed is a party willing to restore the FoI act as I was promised by Kathleen Lynch.

Garibaldy
29-07-2012, 03:13 PM
My mum had lunch recently with a former Labour minister who is also an old family friend.

The former minister said they feared that Labour was going to lose a lot of younger members to SF - my mum said it was already happening.

After years of membership I had been unhappy with Labour for some time, but finally left after Lisbon II

I feel they have totally sold out - after the last elections for example I feel they made a bad mistake joining FG - they should have let FG and FF (two cheeks of the one arse) form some kind of minority government/voting pact and let them hang together.

But the ego's of "The Student Princes" - Rabitte and Gilmore did not allow for that.

The current Labour party is being run and controlled by former Democratic Left / Workers Party people.
When Rabbitte was leader and retained the same amount of seats in the 2007 election, that was a win within his mindset - having 20 deputies as opposed to 6 with him, so he was happy.

As a brief aside Rabbitte as minister for comms, natural resources etc. has not instigated an investigation into the Corrib field deal.
He goes along with the mantra that it would be too expensive for us to develop a Statoil system, he does not question the civil servants or the vested interests.
No-one will question the Providence oil deal because Sir Tony O Reillys son owns that - dont mess about ith the media I guess.

Gilmore and the others have gone along with the FF birthed bailout.

On the Democratic Left / Workers Party note, dont forget Gilmore and Rabbitte were instrumental in 1997/2004 in not supporting a run by MD Higgins for the Aras, they wanted to end the old Labour profile, and Gilmore would have preferred David Norris to be President in place of Michael D whose independence of mind has always worried him.

In essence, the Labour parlamentary body do not pay much attention to the grass roots of the party, happy at the trough and in the limelight.

For staters what is needed is a party willing to restore the FoI act as I was promised by Kathleen Lynch.

I don't know why you are dragging the WP into this. The whole point of these people creating DL was as a stepping stone to joining Labour. If you feel sold out, just imagine how we feel. The difference of course being that, unlike Labour, the WP has no record of wrestling with its conscience and its conscience losing every time.

The notion too that Labour is being run by DL people is a convenient but untrue one. Quinn, Burton, etc, never mind the apparatchiks, a lot of whom have no background whatsoever in DL, never mind the WP. Rabbitte and Gilmore achieved the prominence they did because of their skills as media operators, as well as the failures of previous leaderships. Hence their overwhelming victories in the respective leadership elections. It wasn't DL members who gave them those majorities, but long-standing Labour ones.

Dr. FIVE
29-07-2012, 03:59 PM
Not forgetting the considerable influence the likes of Mark Garrett have. A long way from DL

Greengoddess
30-07-2012, 04:11 PM
Solutions for saving us? Just as a neutral exercise.

Richardbouvet
30-07-2012, 04:15 PM
A number of party members, including me, are now in the process getting together to demand that this government implement Labour policies. Watch this space.

jmcc
30-07-2012, 04:25 PM
Solutions for saving us? Just as a neutral exercise.Force the DL element out by splitting. It would have to be on a natural Labour strong point though rather than a Politically Correct point - something that would resonate with the voters that Labour is in the process of losing to SF and the floating voters who might be in danger of moving back towards FF. Ideally it would be something that would be pro-Irish and anti-Brussels as that could tap into a wider disenchantment with the EU.

It would result in a few casualties in the politburo genontocracy but they are acceptable casualties (they won't be running again and even if they are they will not be elected) if Labour is to rebuild itself. The problem is that time may be running out too quickly for the Labour brand. The way I see it (perhaps not as others), the Labour politicians in government are not Labour - they are DL/FG and will do whatever FG decide.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc
30-07-2012, 04:28 PM
A number of party members, including me, are now in the process getting together to demand that this government implement Labour policies. Watch this space.Why does that scene from 'The Life of Brian' spring to mind? :) Good luck with your People's Front of Labour.

Regards...jmcc

Baron von Biffo
01-08-2012, 12:16 PM
Rabbitte actually makes a good point in the IT today about the inadequacy of the opposition. He doesn't seem to realise that it only underscores the extent of his own party's dereliction of its public duty.

A Democracy needs good opposition as much as good government and by leaving that role to a discredited FF and the expenses-milking opportunists of SF and the Alphabet Soup, Labour betrayed our country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0801/1224321232766.html

Richardbouvet
01-08-2012, 02:58 PM
Biffo, Labour in government has been a let-down, but I would be interested to know what you mean by the bald statement that "Labour betrayed our country."

In what ways do you think Labour has betrayed our country?

Baron von Biffo
01-08-2012, 09:53 PM
Biffo, Labour in government has been a let-down, but I would be interested to know what you mean by the bald statement that "Labour betrayed our country."

In what ways do you think Labour has betrayed our country?

By refusing to serve as a responsible opposition when, as Rabbitte admits, they knew that if they didn't we would have no responsible opposition.

Richardbouvet
02-08-2012, 09:30 AM
Biffo, I really don't think that failing to stay in opposition counts as betraying the country. It must be a rarity for a party to be deemed to have "betrayed the country" by the simple act of going into government!

I do think that had Labour stayed in opposition it would now be in poll position to lead the next government. That would be better than the present situation where labour is FG's mudguard. But that still does not mean that Labour betrayed the country.

Baron von Biffo
02-08-2012, 11:34 AM
Biffo, I really don't think that failing to stay in opposition counts as betraying the country. It must be a rarity for a party to be deemed to have "betrayed the country" by the simple act of going into government!

I do think that had Labour stayed in opposition it would now be in poll position to lead the next government. That would be better than the present situation where labour is FG's mudguard. But that still does not mean that Labour betrayed the country.

Going into government or providing responsible opposition are not 'simple acts'. It is the grave duty of everyone elected to the Dail to serve our country to the best of their ability. By denying us a responsible opposition while at the same time having no discernible impact on government policy Labour can most definitely be seen as derelict in their duty and thus as betraying our country.

Maximus
02-08-2012, 05:47 PM
I think Ruari Quinn put it well in the Labour's Way documentary on RTE a while ago when he said the social class people are in in a particular time is not always going to be the social class they will be in forever.

I mean do you stay working class and not develop an invention and not become upper class because you want to stay working class?

Political parties in nearly all countries begin at the bottom of society but then as time goes on and they experience government their class moves up in society. The Labour Party in Britain, Republican Party in the US, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in Ireland and so on.

C. Flower
02-08-2012, 09:16 PM
I think Ruari Quinn put it well in the Labour's Way documentary on RTE a while ago when he said the social class people are in in a particular time is not always going to be the social class they will be in forever.

I mean do you stay working class and not develop an invention and not become upper class because you want to stay working class?

Political parties in nearly all countries begin at the bottom of society but then as time goes on and they experience government their class moves up in society. The Labour Party in Britain, Republican Party in the US, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in Ireland and so on.

He may have put it well, but was it true? Social class is not particularly mobile, so far as I recall from reading studies on this. Advantage begets advantage, and disadvantage begets disadvantage.

The remark puts me in mind of another "socialist" Peter Mandelson, who said there is no reason why a Labour politician shouldn't become very, very rich.

In the meantime, far from moving up, the British working class is getting poorer and a whole underclass without work or skills has been created as a result of deindustrialisation and the shift to banking and services.

fluffybiscuits
03-08-2012, 02:46 PM
Going into government or providing responsible opposition are not 'simple acts'. It is the grave duty of everyone elected to the Dail to serve our country to the best of their ability. By denying us a responsible opposition while at the same time having no discernible impact on government policy Labour can most definitely be seen as derelict in their duty and thus as betraying our country.

+1

The oppostion have no teeth what so ever. Labour would have been better in opposition and let the FG / potential FF axis hang themselves from the rafters . Instead what happened was they chose to enter government and attack their very roots. Its like being a weed and pouring weed killer on your own roots, you kill off the very thing that supports you. Shinners are telling everyone what they want to hear and the ULA, which this bloke supports, are too busy fluffing around. There is only so much a march from the garden of rememberance on a rainy Saturday will achieve Richie . No wonder people are disillusioned.....

DCon
03-09-2012, 10:06 AM
A Clare councillor has quit the party. He should have waited until Ministerial Pensions were secured. The government will fall apart soon after..


A Co Clare Labour councillor has quit the party in protest at the Government’s planned “draconian cuts in home and community care.” Ennis Town Councillor Paul O’Shea has also resigned from his party’s International Affairs Committee and says he will only reconsider his position if the proposed cuts are reversed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0903/1224323535869.html

Richardbouvet
03-09-2012, 11:30 AM
Things beginning to move in the party:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/campaign-for-labour-policies/

Greengoddess
03-09-2012, 11:34 AM
Things beginning to move in the party:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/campaign-for-labour-policies/

Where?

Richardbouvet
03-09-2012, 12:13 PM
There will be a press launch in Buswell's on Wednesday 12th ath about 11, and a meeting for members on Saturday 15th at 2pm in Wynn's Hotel.

Greengoddess
03-09-2012, 03:41 PM
There will be a press launch in Buswell's on Wednesday 12th ath about 11, and a meeting for members on Saturday 15th at 2pm in Wynn's Hotel.
I hate to rain on any parade but I wouldn't be too hopeful of movies anywhere. That group will not be able to access the power structure.

Richardbouvet
03-09-2012, 03:53 PM
The more support we get the more chance we have to persuade the PLP to start demanding labour policies.

Shaadi
03-09-2012, 06:02 PM
The more support we get the more chance we have to persuade the PLP to start demanding labour policies.Good luck with your meeting Richard, it's time to either seize your party back from the Gilmore brigade or watch it go down the tubes.

If they can't be persuaded to change tack, then it's time for the disillusioned backbenchers to jump ship and start a new party. The way things are going, ambitious young TDs like Colm Keaveney will be out on their ears after the next election. It'd be best for them to wallk from the party and fight the election in a new party. The public would back them because they're familiar with them and they'd be seen as being on the little guys side.

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 06:19 PM
The Miniature on SixOne in a moment on health cuts.

musashi
03-09-2012, 06:26 PM
Labour is goosed - dogs on the street know it.

Greengoddess
03-09-2012, 08:05 PM
The Miniature on SixOne in a moment on health cuts.

What did he say?

Mick Tully
03-09-2012, 08:19 PM
A long term Labour supporter in conversation last night was discussing what he felt was wrong with Labour. Labour was set up and has its roots in the working class and trade unions within Ireland but has now been taken over by the D4 intelligensia (sic) and other factions and its original roots have been sidelined. James Larkin and Co originally set up Labour as a part of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions but now nearly a hundred years later Labour seems vastly different from what is was originally set up for. We are seeing attacks on the working class in terms of cuts to social welfare and cuts to other benefits from the Minister for Misery, Joan Burton and then we have the rest of the Labour brigade who rightly are fighting for civil rights for the gay community (of which I fight for aswell) but they seem to have completely forgotten that there is other areas where they are to meant to be fighting. There is household charges, wage cuts, job losses, USC , income tax being potentially raised and other numerous issues and Labour has stood idly by while all these have been brought in. Social issues have taken precedence , Im behind them in their support for gay marriage and abortion but alone is not enough to fight for the rights of the working class whom they have abandoned. In the next election, if they get savaged they have no one to blame but themselves. Gilmore and Co better buck up and fight for working class rights. The issues they are fighting for are across class but they need to remember there is other issues too.

I have read all the comments on this thread and have come to the conclusion that Labour never had roots, they never had backbone. They built their party on Connolly, and sold out every time the keys were dangled in front of them. When the real **** hits the fan in December, they will try and go back and discover what everybody has known for the last hundred years they were sitting on top of the ground.

riposte
03-09-2012, 08:40 PM
What did he say?

He said " the champagne and smoked salmon in Dail Eireann tastes even sweeter when it's pelting austerity outside."
:)

Baron von Biffo
03-09-2012, 08:40 PM
What did he say?

Sorry GG, I missed it - Phone call came at the wrong time.

PaddyJoe
03-09-2012, 09:31 PM
What did he say?

Didn't see it but the IT has an update:

Minister for Public Expenditure Brendan Howlin has said the Coalition is committed to sticking to its budget targets despite talk of a split in Government over cuts of €130 million to the health budget.

Speaking ahead of tomorrow's Cabinet meeting, the first since the summer Dáil recess began, Mr Howlin said it was “the resolve” of every Government member to ensure the State operated within its “budgetary parameters”.

He told RTÉ News that there was no other option as “we’re living on borrowed money” and that “the people loaning us the money, the troika, are setting the terms”.

He added: “It is the resolve of Government, both parties, to ensure we continue to provide the best possible health service to everybody who needs assistance”.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0903/breaking4.html

Greengoddess
03-09-2012, 09:36 PM
Didn't see it but the IT has an update:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0903/breaking4.html
And it appears that they will vote for Rielly in the VONC. Thrilling think- in next week on the cards.......

jmcc
03-09-2012, 10:00 PM
And it appears that they will vote for Rielly in the VONC. Thrilling think- in next week on the cards.......Wonder if any will suffer from an attack of principles? :)

Regards...jmcc

Greengoddess
03-09-2012, 10:16 PM
Wonder if any will suffer from an attack of principles? :)

Regards...jmcc
any attack of same will be heavily defended against . My attending assistant is not going to be allowed to ask questions on my behalf......

jmcc
03-09-2012, 10:30 PM
any attack of same will be heavily defended against . My attending assistant is not going to be allowed to ask questions on my behalf......There will probably be more solo runs than a marathon as those in more vulnerable seats discover the principle of political survival. :)

Regards...jmcc

fluffybiscuits
03-09-2012, 11:42 PM
And it appears that they will vote for Rielly in the VONC. Thrilling think- in next week on the cards.......

Oh how Labour are now signing their own death warrants. The minister is caught proverbally wounded with the HSE a mess and Labour could stick the knife in and probably use the whole scenario to crash the government. Labour have an opportunity here to save face...


I have read all the comments on this thread and have come to the conclusion that Labour never had roots, they never had backbone. They built their party on Connolly, and sold out every time the keys were dangled in front of them. When the real **** hits the fan in December, they will try and go back and discover what everybody has known for the last hundred years they were sitting on top of the ground.


I did believe they did at one stage albeit a very long time ago. When December comes and they realised they signed a death warrant for themselves at the next election and they wont be getting back in...

C. Flower
03-09-2012, 11:52 PM
I wouldn't place any great expectation of massive dissent from the Labour rank and file. It's hardly like everyone didn't know from past experience where this was headed in coalition. On top of which, it's been obviously for two decades Rabbite and Gilmore have no real political principles, and they were both elected leader with massive support from said rank and file.

I would not expect massive dissent, but I would expect some significant defections and resistance (as well as a lot of cynical shape-making about how hard it is to make the cuts).
And as well as the old established rank and file (not all that numerous) there is the floating vote who gave Labour a try at the last election.The position of the Labour leadership -Quinn tonight on tv talking about "plucking the goose" in relation to cuts to Disadvantaged Schools, for example, will not remain tenable (or electable) indefinitely.

jmcc
03-09-2012, 11:56 PM
Oh how Labour are now signing their own death warrants. The minister is caught proverbally wounded with the HSE a mess and Labour could stick the knife in and probably use the whole scenario to crash the government. Labour have an opportunity here to save face...Well the last government had the Greens defending Willie O'Dea. FG has Labour defending the HSE. I think that Labour may have problems maintaining structural integrity beyond October and it will be lucky to reach the end of this month without casualties at the top.

Regards...jmcc

DCon
04-09-2012, 08:28 AM
Lucinda tells Labour to stop cribbin' and moanin' from the sidelines. Stops short of recommending suicide


Minister of State for European Affairs Lucinda Creighton said yesterday it was not credible for Government backbenchers to suggest the recent announcement of a €130 million cost-reduction package by the Health Service Executive was a surprise.

“Whingeing and pretending that you were surprised by budget figures that were agreed last December is not really credible,” she said in an interview with The Irish Times.

“We all went into the Dáil chamber and voted for it, including all of the members of Labour and all of the members of Fine Gael. So let’s have the courage to stand over what we voted for last December and don’t pretend that it’s a surprise that the Department of Health has to meet certain targets.”

Ms Creighton called on “people who’ve never been TDs before” to act calmly and maturely. “We need them to just be a little bit steadier, cooler, stop getting so panicked.”


“Playing games and scoring political points and talking about elections and trying to frighten people is really irresponsible and juvenile and I certainly would hope that people might desist now that we’re entering into the critical pre-budget period.”



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/images/2012/0904/297627_1.jpg?ts=1346742146

Richardbouvet
04-09-2012, 09:32 AM
I seem to be the only person here who predicts, as I do, that the Labour rank and file are not going to accept the current drift in government policy, and the PLP are going to have to listen to us or prepare to kiss their seats goodbye.

Having said that, I do not blame the any member of the PLP for voting against the blatantly opportunist motion of no confidence in Reilly. SF and FF have deliberately introduced this motion before any effective lobbying has had a chance to at least modify the cuts. The motion is particularly nauseating considering it comes from a party that has implemented savage cuts in the North.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 10:06 AM
I seem to be the only person here who predicts, as I do, that the Labour rank and file are not going to accept the current drift in government policy, and the PLP are going to have to listen to us or prepare to kiss their seats goodbye.

Having said that, I do not blame the any member of the PLP for voting against the blatantly opportunist motion of no confidence in Reilly. SF and FF have deliberately introduced this motion before any effective lobbying has had a chance to at least modify the cuts. The motion is particularly nauseating considering it comes from a party that has implemented savage cuts in the North.

http://jayperoni.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cake-and-eat-it-too.jpg

DCon
04-09-2012, 10:07 AM
I seem to be the only person here who predicts, as I do, that the Labour rank and file are not going to accept the current drift in government policy, and the PLP are going to have to listen to us or prepare to kiss their seats goodbye.

As soon as the full Ministerial pensions are in the back pocket, the listening will begin.

Eamo and Pat can retire gracefully then. The Spin will be epic

MediaBite
04-09-2012, 10:54 AM
Don't listen to a word of what they say. Concentrate only on what they actually do. I'm wrestling with a feeling of profound astonishment. Is it possible that anyone believed Labour would do anything differently if they got elected? When did they ever? Hadn't Gilmore's manipulative dishonesty been proved well enough by Julian Assange and Wikileaks over Lisbon? If the rank and file carried on believing in him after that then they have only themselves to blame. Gilmore, Rabbitte et al - the 'sunsetters' as Olivia O' Leary has called them wanted a shot at being in government before it was all too late. Those hands won't be prised off the levers of power for any reason whatsoever - they'll go the distance just like Boyle, Ryan, Gormley did for the Greens. As with the Greens, the trick is for them to pretend they are doing it in our interests rather than their own.

Incipient Labour was murdered with Connolly so it's never been what it set out to be. But things took a very bad turn under Dick Spring and his political fixer Fergus Finlay. Been boring anyone who will let me for years about this. They set course for the right back then and arrived safely shortly thereafter. Labour is now a neo-liberal party economically. Their only true political problem is appearing not to be doing what they are doing and there are two groups the leadership need to manipulate to keep them onside. Judging from this thread, they have done a brilliant job with the rank and file. That just leaves the rest of us. So they talk all that stuff about caring, compassion, the vulnerable yada yada yada while signing off on everything that does the exact opposite.

Step forward Mr Fergus Finlay for a brilliant example of this two-facedness. He's thundering away about the cuts to home helps for disabled people and promoting the much needed protest outside Government Buildings today at 12 (hope everybody in Dublin is going to go to that). Only the other day, however he was arguing for the ending of universal child benefit. He's against strikes but he wrings his hands about the unfairness of it all. He claims 'everybody has suffered' even while being forced to admit that in fact the richest people have done better. He says there will be several more years of austerity whether we like it or not. He laments the payments to bondholders, kinda. If you want to understand the heart and soul of the Labour Party, make a study of Mr Finlay. (He's also extremely tetchy when challenged. Having put some of these contradictions to him with a view to discussing them on twitter he accused me of posting 'bile' at him and flounced off.) More than any of the present Labour Party, Fergus Finlay shaped it into what it is today. It's moulded in his image and likeness: cuddly and Santa like on the outside, ruthlessly steely and incredibly manipulative on the inside. Make no mistake, no matter what the government does -no matter how awful or unfair it is, the Fergus Finlay-style party whippers will be vicious toward dissenters. 'Discipline' as he calls it.

I'm with Sean Ryan above. Let the Labour Party do their worst so everybody finally understands the only thing they care about is being in power at any price.

Baron von Biffo
04-09-2012, 11:13 AM
Keavney is furiously rowing back on his 'prepare for an election' remarks.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0904/1224323574942.html

It's one thing being a bit stroppy to Gilmore but quite another to tell all those shiny new Lab TDs to risk their seats.

MediaBite
04-09-2012, 12:11 PM
Keavney is furiously rowing back on his 'prepare for an election' remarks.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0904/1224323574942.html

It's one thing being a bit stroppy to Gilmore but quite another to tell all those shiny new Lab TDs to risk their seats.

What did I tell you? 'Unhappy' Labour back benchers will not be standing by the disabled and the elderly. Rather they will do as they are told by their treacherous leaders and whips to stand by one James Reilly.

http://www.thejournal.ie/james-reilly-vote-of-confidence-583677-Sep2012/

DCon
04-09-2012, 12:12 PM
What did I tell you? 'Unhappy' Labour back benchers will not be standing by the disabled and the elderly. Rather they will do as they are told by their treacherous leaders and whips to stand by one James Reilly.

http://www.thejournal.ie/james-reilly-vote-of-confidence-583677-Sep2012/

Well if you're a Labour backbencher and know that the party Leaders will all be off once their pensions are secured, your shot at a Ministerial position is there. And a massive pension.

Richardbouvet
04-09-2012, 12:22 PM
Keavney is absolutely right to point out that FF and SF have no credibility whatever when it comes to debating health cuts.

In any case, most backbenchers are not waiting for ministerial jobs. They know their seats are gone if FG continue to make all the running. That is why something is certain to give in the party well before the next election.

Greengoddess
04-09-2012, 04:39 PM
Richard is right about the ministries. But it is hard not to despair. Many social democrats out here are in the same position. As for the Lib Dems in the uk....
The question really comes down to the following:
Would things be worse if we were NOT in Government?

Richardbouvet
04-09-2012, 05:00 PM
"The question really comes down to the following:
Would things be worse if we were NOT in Government? "

That is a potentially disastrous way of thinking about the situation. Of course things would be worse on the short term, but defenders of staying in govt with FG could go on to argue that as long as one pensioner gets one euro more in heating allowances than she would without Labour being in government, then it is worth it.

Not so. We have to be able to put this in the prespective of what our voters expect Labour to do. If we do not do that, we will incur incalculable long-term damage in return for a few crumbs of amelioration.

But just to emphasize - The CLP are NOT calling for withdrawal from this government. The CLP view is that Labour must demand a change of direction in this government.

riposte
04-09-2012, 05:05 PM
Step forward Mr Fergus Finlay for a brilliant example of this two-facedness. He's thundering away about the cuts to home helps for disabled people and promoting the much needed protest outside Government Buildings today at 12 (hope everybody in Dublin is going to go to that). Only the other day, however he was arguing for the ending of universal child benefit. He's against strikes but he wrings his hands about the unfairness of it all. He claims 'everybody has suffered' even while being forced to admit that in fact the richest people have done better. He says there will be several more years of austerity whether we like it or not. He laments the payments to bondholders, kinda. If you want to understand the heart and soul of the Labour Party, make a study of Mr Finlay. (He's also extremely tetchy when challenged. Having put some of these contradictions to him with a view to discussing them on twitter he accused me of posting 'bile' at him and flounced off.) More than any of the present Labour Party, Fergus Finlay shaped it into what it is today. It's moulded in his image and likeness: cuddly and Santa like on the outside, ruthlessly steely and incredibly manipulative on the inside. Make no mistake, no matter what the government does -no matter how awful or unfair it is, the Fergus Finlay-style party whippers will be vicious toward dissenters. 'Discipline' as he calls it.



+ 1,000,000 %. . ......and that guy wanted to be President.

Greengoddess
04-09-2012, 05:06 PM
"The question really comes down to the following:
Would things be worse if we were NOT in Government? "

That is a potentially disastrous way of thinking about the situation. Of course things would be worse on the short term, but defenders of staying in govt with FG could go on to argue that as long as one pensioner gets one euro more in heating allowances than she would without Labour being in government, then it is worth it.

Not so. We have to be able to put this in the prespective of what our voters expect Labour to do. If we do not do that, we will incur incalculable long-term damage in return for a few crumbs of amelioration.

But just to emphasize - The CLP are NOT calling for withdrawal from this government. The CLP view is that Labour must demand a change of direction in this government.

Next question: Who is " Labour" in your view? . And what happens if the demand isn't met? Party members in all Parties, btw, are generally regarded as a nuisance when in power.

Greengoddess
04-09-2012, 05:11 PM
Just to be clear, I don't share that view but no one should be under illusions....

disability student
04-09-2012, 05:24 PM
With four successive budgets to go, Lab will take a huge hammering just like FF as FG doesn't give a fig about Labour whatsoever.

Lab would see a single digit in terms of figures as SF/FF would take over as 2nd/3rd biggest party. They have lost the track of themselves and what they really stood for. Lab are now seen as anti- socialist party as that will wipe out their votes that they have held since the last GE. It's a huge possibility that Lab may not recover & languish just like the Greens or perhaps towards an extinction like the PD's.

The notion of Lab not seen as a socialist party is already embedded in the public consciousness and is hardening as we go along.

No mention of any new party being set up at all as that's critical in order to take voters away from FG/FF (possible coalition in the next GE).

C. Flower
04-09-2012, 05:29 PM
With four successive budgets to go, Lab will take a huge hammering just like FF as FG doesn't give a fig about Labour whatsoever.

Lab would see a single digit in terms of figures as SF/FF would take over as 2nd/3rd biggest party. They have lost the track of themselves and what they really stood for. Lab are now seen as anti- socialist party as that will wipe out their votes that they have held since the last GE. It's a huge possibility that Lab may not recover & languish just like the Greens or perhaps towards an extinction like the PD's.

The notion of Lab not seen as a socialist party is already embedded in the public consciousness and is hardening as we go along.

No mention of any new party being set up at all as that's critical in order to take voters away from FG/FF (possible coalition in the next GE).

Expect to see a lot more of Sinn Fein.

C. Flower
04-09-2012, 05:31 PM
Next question: Who is " Labour" in your view? . And what happens if the demand isn't met? Party members in all Parties, btw, are generally regarded as a nuisance when in power.

Gold ;)

Dr. FIVE
04-09-2012, 05:33 PM
I remember watching the pre-coalition conference and various speeches from the side for going in with FG. All very lofty stuff about Labour's duty in government and all that. Then on his registration we got this from Willie Penrose. [after eight months in cabinet]




‘Look, I didn’t think the economy was in such a state or we had so many difficult decisions until I was in the middle of it to be honest.’


Was that a view held by others in the Party? If so what the hell were they doing for three years previous.

Heard an interesting point yesterday that Keaveney is doing a Dan Boyle and being the 'public conscience' while the Ministers got on with it. Whither true or not it's an interesting parallel. On that point Mediabite is spot on above re actions and not words.

disability student
04-09-2012, 05:38 PM
I remember watching the pre-coalition conference and various speeches from the side for going in with FG. All very lofty stuff about Labour's duty in government and all that. Then on his registration we got this from Willie Penrose. [after eight months in cabinet]



Was that a view held by others in the Party? If so what the hell were they doing for three years previous.

Heard an interesting point yesterday that Keaveney is doing a Dan Boyle and being the 'public conscience' while the Ministers got on with it. Whither true or not it's an interesting parallel. On that point Mediabite is spot on above re actions and not words.

Yes it's their actions that would define Labour for their decisions taken, while in govt and also being a loyal lapdog to FG govt & not strong enough to challenge FG's govt decisions. Also their role re checks and balances in the govt adminstration as well.

'Actions speak louder than words'

Shaadi
04-09-2012, 08:00 PM
Don't listen to a word of what they say. Concentrate only on what they actually do. I'm wrestling with a feeling of profound astonishment. Is it possible that anyone believed Labour would do anything differently if they got elected? When did they ever? Hadn't Gilmore's manipulative dishonesty been proved well enough by Julian Assange and Wikileaks over Lisbon? If the rank and file carried on believing in him after that then they have only themselves to blame. Gilmore, Rabbitte et al - the 'sunsetters' as Olivia O' Leary has called them wanted a shot at being in government before it was all too late. Those hands won't be prised off the levers of power for any reason whatsoever - they'll go the distance just like Boyle, Ryan, Gormley did for the Greens. As with the Greens, the trick is for them to pretend they are doing it in our interests rather than their own.

Incipient Labour was murdered with Connolly so it's never been what it set out to be. But things took a very bad turn under Dick Spring and his political fixer Fergus Finlay. Been boring anyone who will let me for years about this. They set course for the right back then and arrived safely shortly thereafter. Labour is now a neo-liberal party economically. Their only true political problem is appearing not to be doing what they are doing and there are two groups the leadership need to manipulate to keep them onside. Judging from this thread, they have done a brilliant job with the rank and file. That just leaves the rest of us. So they talk all that stuff about caring, compassion, the vulnerable yada yada yada while signing off on everything that does the exact opposite.

Step forward Mr Fergus Finlay for a brilliant example of this two-facedness. He's thundering away about the cuts to home helps for disabled people and promoting the much needed protest outside Government Buildings today at 12 (hope everybody in Dublin is going to go to that). Only the other day, however he was arguing for the ending of universal child benefit. He's against strikes but he wrings his hands about the unfairness of it all. He claims 'everybody has suffered' even while being forced to admit that in fact the richest people have done better. He says there will be several more years of austerity whether we like it or not. He laments the payments to bondholders, kinda. If you want to understand the heart and soul of the Labour Party, make a study of Mr Finlay. (He's also extremely tetchy when challenged. Having put some of these contradictions to him with a view to discussing them on twitter he accused me of posting 'bile' at him and flounced off.) More than any of the present Labour Party, Fergus Finlay shaped it into what it is today. It's moulded in his image and likeness: cuddly and Santa like on the outside, ruthlessly steely and incredibly manipulative on the inside. Make no mistake, no matter what the government does -no matter how awful or unfair it is, the Fergus Finlay-style party whippers will be vicious toward dissenters. 'Discipline' as he calls it.

I'm with Sean Ryan above. Let the Labour Party do their worst so everybody finally understands the only thing they care about is being in power at any price.Good post, Labour are unfortunately beyond redemption. The party of the chattering classes, a smug party that will gladly see people go hungry while protecting privilege. Their dishonest handwringing over the cuts will come back to haunt them at the next election.