HSE Staff May Be Removed From Payroll Over Action

[ang]

Health Service Staff who have been engaged in industrial action over paycuts may be removed from payroll.

HSE are meeting today in special session to consider the impact of the action which has hit key financial and activity data:-


It is understood that among the proposals put forward by management for consideration by the board if action continues are the removal of staff from the payroll, the ending of the deduction of union subscriptions at source, and the abolition of the practice whereby some HSE-funded staff work full-time on union activity.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0423/1224268953054.html

It seems like someone somewhere want's to set the tone of how bad things will get if the Croke Park deal is not passed ? Is this a way of letting public servants know what the governments next moves will be if the deal fails ?

[johnfás]

We already know what the Government's next move is - a further 8% paycut.

[Xray]

There will be an 8% pay cut regardless of whether the deal is passed or not. There will be another 20,000 jobs losses regardless. The deal is PR and nothing more. There is a massive storm coming as we are about to run out of day to day money for services within months. Nothing can prevent this now.

[C. Flower]

There will be an 8% pay cut regardless of whether the deal is passed or not. There will be another 20,000 jobs losses regardless. The deal is PR and nothing more. There is a massive storm coming as we are about to run out of day to day money for services within months. Nothing can prevent this now.

The only way to keep services running will be to take them over and keep them running. None of the main parties will defend them.

Joan Burton on Primetime last night was beating the drum for more cuts.

[Xray]

They dont have the money to pay social welfare, basic services and the banks next year. What is going to give? tax take will not rise. We are now at the start of a a stagflation spiral to bankruptcy unless something radical is done.

If they are lucky they have 30 billion in tax in the pot and a social welfare bill of 20 billion. The music in this game of musical chairs is about to stop. This deal is simply PR, it will not save 20 or 30 billion euro. Further massive pay cuts are not viable in terms of retaining services, they will certainly slash pay again but it will at some point just result in mass resignations from key areas.

The unions are not going to be in a fit state to run a strike if this deal fails. Strikes are not going to happen either. The unions are beaten, they have no other plan from what I can see.

I suspect many TDs hope this agreement falls as at least then a core of support will remain on side through the collapse in services and they will blame unions and workers and not the idiots that bankrupt the state and collapsed the tax base.

We are constantly told we have a spending level problem, but really we have a tax income problem, our income has collapsed. The way it is told you would think our spending was increasing. The ERSI constantly trot this nonsense out. They are still staying PS pay increased last year. What utter rubbish. The total net cost of the PS decreased by billions last year and will again this year. The problem we have is that the state cannot raise any money other than by borrowing it. It is like someone losing their job and complaining that their maid is too expensive and needs to drop her wages. What you really need is another job or to sack the maid.

[C. Flower]

They dont have the money to pay social welfare, basic services and the banks next year. What is going to give? tax take will not rise. We are now at the start of a a stagflation spiral to bankruptcy unless something radical is done.

If they are lucky they have 30 billion in tax in the pot and a social welfare bill of 20 billion. The music in this game of musical chairs is about to stop. This deal is simply PR, it will not save 20 or 30 billion euro. Further massive pay cuts are not viable in terms of retaining services, they will certainly slash pay again but it will at some point just result in mass resignations from key areas.

The unions are not going to be in a fit state to run a strike if this deal fails. Strikes are not going to happen either. The unions are beaten, they have no other plan from what I can see.

I suspect many TDs hope this agreement falls as at least then a core of support will remain on side through the collapse in services and they will blame unions and workers and not the idiots that bankrupt the state and collapsed the tax base.

We are constantly told we have a spending level problem, but really we have a tax income problem, our income has collapsed. The way it is told you would think our spending was increasing. The ERSI constantly trot this nonsense out. They are still staying PS pay increased last year. What utter rubbish. The total net cost of the PS decreased by billions last year and will again this year. The problem we have is that the state cannot raise any money other than by borrowing it. It is like someone losing their job and complaining that their maid is too expensive and needs to drop her wages. What you really need is another job or to sack the maid.

A lot of that income was itself based on credit. The productive side of our economy - the real income - peaked in the late 1990s. The money that was borrowed funded the property bubble that was 15% of our economy.

Whatever we are doing, we need to try to keep as much of our productive economy and public services running as we would try to if there was a war on. Once these things go, they will be near to impossible to get back.

There are plenty of other states in Europe in the same boat. There must be some scope for mutual support.

One thing is for sure, and that is that there is going to be a massive outpouring of anger and frustration in this country before too long. Its way past time that we at least got past the first hurdle and cleared out the crooks.

[johnfás]

Maintaining public services does not necessarily mean maintaining those who are in public sector jobs, in those jobs. We are exporting nurses, speech therapists and teachers by the plane load and we have hundreds of managers sitting in the HSE who don't know what their job is. Protection public services as much means getting rid of people from jobs which are no longer required in order to free precious resources to employ those we do need. The idea of redeployment etc only works to a certain extent. There are people in the public service, like any sector, whose skills are superfluous to requirements and who are not qualified to take up roles in areas where we need staff. Those people should be replaced and the resources redeployed in favour of skills we need.

[C. Flower]

Maintaining public services does not necessarily mean maintaining those who are in public sector jobs, in those jobs. We are exporting nurses, speech therapists and teachers by the plane load and we have hundreds of managers sitting in the HSE who don't know what their job is. Protection public services as much means getting rid of people from jobs which are no longer required in order to free precious resources to employ those we do need. The idea of redeployment etc only works to a certain extent. There are people in the public service, like any sector, whose skills are superfluous to requirements and who are not qualified to take up roles in areas where we need staff. Those people should be replaced and the resources redeployed in favour of skills we need.

Johnfás - I'm taking about maintaining essential services, not sending Mary Harney and her pals to Space Disneyland Florida. :)

There is plenty of work needed - enough to keep everyone busy whether their line is technical or adminstrative/organisational. There's nothing wrong with the people in the HSE, its the dysfunctional system they're in.

[Xray]

Maintaining public services does not necessarily mean maintaining those who are in public sector jobs, in those jobs. We are exporting nurses, speech therapists and teachers by the plane load and we have hundreds of managers sitting in the HSE who don't know what their job is. Protection public services as much means getting rid of people from jobs which are no longer required in order to free precious resources to employ those we do need. The idea of redeployment etc only works to a certain extent. There are people in the public service, like any sector, whose skills are superfluous to requirements and who are not qualified to take up roles in areas where we need staff. Those people should be replaced and the resources redeployed in favour of skills we need.


You are correct but getting skills to match requirements needs management. We don't do that in this country.

In fact you don't even need public servants at all for many services. What you do need is the one thing we don't have.


Money.

The government did not seek what you are saying there, they did not ask to terminate the jobs of people who no longer have a role. They asked that we just gradually run down all services and the basis of who leaves first and further pay cuts for people working shifts. They got that.


All this talk of unions and reorganisation is just a smoke cloud, when it clears your local school and hospital will be smaller if they exist at all. That is because the state is virtually bankrupt, no pay agreement or flexible shift is going to fix that.


People are in for one hell of a shock when the private sector fills the vacuum, because they will charge you for fresh air if they can.

[Baron von Biffo]

Maintaining public services does not necessarily mean maintaining those who are in public sector jobs, in those jobs. We are exporting nurses, speech therapists and teachers by the plane load

How can this be reconciled with the oft stated 'fact' that we have the best paid PS in the world?

[Baron von Biffo]

Health Service Staff who have been engaged in industrial action over paycuts may be removed from payroll.

HSE are meeting today in special session to consider the impact of the action which has hit key financial and activity data:-



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0423/1224268953054.html

It seems like someone somewhere want's to set the tone of how bad things will get if the Croke Park deal is not passed ? Is this a way of letting public servants know what the governments next moves will be if the deal fails ?

It would seem to be

(a) A calculated attempt to ensure a No vote to the deal

(b) An attempt by HSE management to appear tough and decisive that fails to take context or consequences into account.

Given past HSE form my vote is for (b)

[Xray]

How can this be reconciled with the oft stated 'fact' that we have the best paid PS in the world?

Mary Coughlan already explained that, young people are just traveling for a laugh and taking a career break.

[ang]

It would seem to be

(a) A calculated attempt to ensure a No vote to the deal

(b) An attempt by HSE management to appear tough and decisive that fails to take context or consequences into account.

Given past HSE form my vote is for (b)

Would liked to have given you an a Baron but on this occasion I will go with b

[Baron von Biffo]

would liked to have given you an a baron but on this occasion i will go with b

:)


.

[Lifeisagame]

I believe that this Site should restrict this type of Public Sector Discussion to one area or Topic etc.
Let us us all be on the same level here. I am Private Sector Senior Management.
I personally do not agree with Public Sector Pay Cuts, nobody in my family is in Public Sector.
I, and this why I believe this should be single Thread, believe that the Public Sector are being used as scapegoats by the miss management of Government and the greed of indigenious employers.
I am Global Subsidiary and total exporter, so basically I really could say I do not give a rat's arse what you do to each other.
But, I am an Irish man and proud, I will not sit back and watch incompetence destroy my country.
Quite honestly, and there are too many Threads, I have said the same thing over and over and over again.
Public Sector, shut the damn country down and that will eliminate the Government, Unions and any other hanger ons.
However, finally tonight after some thought I can prove that my idea is the right direction.
The Whole World stopped because of a Volcano and recovered in days.
Business is resilient and adapts to all attacks.
Hit the Damn Button and stop everything.
I will give it a maximum of one week to take Humpty Biffo down and no Kings men will ever put him together again.

[Xray]

I believe that this Site should restrict this type of Public Sector Discussion to one area or Topic etc.
Let us us all be on the same level here. I am Private Sector Senior Management.
I personally do not agree with Public Sector Pay Cuts, nobody in my family is in Public Sector.
I, and this why I believe this should be single Thread, believe that the Public Sector are being used as scapegoats by the miss management of Government and the greed of indigenious employers.
I am Global Subsidiary and total exporter, so basically I really could say I do not give a rat's arse what you do to each other.
But, I am an Irish man and proud, I will not sit back and watch incompetence destroy my country.
Quite honestly, and there are too many Threads, I have said the same thing over and over and over again.
Public Sector, shut the damn country down and that will eliminate the Government, Unions and any other hanger ons.
However, finally tonight after some thought I can prove that my idea is the right direction.
The Whole World stopped because of a Volcano and recovered in days.
Business is resilient and adapts to all attacks.
Hit the Damn Button and stop everything.
I will give it a maximum of one week to take Humpty Biffo down and no Kings men will ever put him together again.

I agree that all the threads should be merged, it gets too much attention and is a distraction from the real solutions to our problems. We have got nowhere by the slashing we have done, in fact our deficit is worse now than before all these emergency measures as predicted. We are feeding this nonsense with so many threads about it.

[Lifeisagame]

I agree that all the threads should be merged, it gets too much attention and is a distraction from the real solutions to our problems. We have got nowhere by the slashing we have done, in fact our deficit is worse now than before all these emergency measures as predicted. We are feeding this nonsense with so many threads about it.
Thank you Xray, ehhhh now can you do it please, I think you are admin.
A battle fought on many fronts is doomed to lose.

[Xray]

I would run it by CF as people who started threads might not like it. Lets pick one thread to stay in. Say this one. I am happy for any thread I started to move here or move ones you started here for a start. What you think? All union, pay, PS, wage deal stuff in here that we are responsible for?

[C. Flower]

pm me with the titles of any threads you think could be merged and I'll take a look at them.

[Xray]

http://www.inmo.ie/INMOPage_5_6977.aspx

WHY IS THE INMO RECOMMENDING REJECTION?

1. The proposed agreement fails to guarantee that there will be no further cuts in your pay. In fact, it threatens that your pay may be cut if you do not comply with all aspects of it.
2. The proposal requires that you accept the continuation of the moratorium on recruitment and promotion until health service posts have been reduced by 6,000 (the majority of these will be frontline staff).
3. The proposal does not guarantee that there will be no compulsory redundancy. Again, it introduces the threat that there may be compulsory redundancy if you fail to comply. There has never been compulsory redundancies in the civil or public services before.
4. The proposal requires you to accept the McCarthy Report.

[Baron von Biffo]

Can I offer a No vote to over zealous merging of threads as it would lead to discussion of the topic being abandoned when people couldn't find the issue that interested them in a shapeless stew of a thread.

[Xray]

Can I offer a No vote to over zealous merging of threads as it would lead to discussion of the topic being abandoned when people couldn't find the issue that interested them in a shapeless stew of a thread.

I think you have a point.

We only merged two, we have kind of abandoned the idea but will watch that we do not end up with loads of similar threads running at the same time on similar subjects to do with the PS, unions etc etc.

I posted here because this is the live thread now.

[Baron von Biffo]

I think you have a point.

We only merged two, we have kind of abandoned the idea but will watch that we do not end up with loads of similar threads running at the same time on similar subjects to do with the PS, unions etc etc.

I posted here because this is the live thread now.

Thanks. It's very easy to say 'yet another PS pay thread' but there are significant differences between the substance of this thread and one dealing with say, the passport office IA. The government and its supporters in business and the media love to use the broad brush to paint over complexities and cover up its bungling. Sites like this, by allowing light to be shed on specific issues undermine that skulduggery.

[MediaBite]

Lot's of different angles and issues on this subject - one mega thread would be unreadable for anyone coming to the discussion anew. Same time, think we should be careful not to needlessly start up new threads - to check and see what is already there before posting.

The public sector thing is ideological and has nothing to do with saving money. It's about creating an impoverished, unprotected workforce for big business for when/if the recovery starts. This is the neocons golden opportunity to eliminate welfare states all over the world - under the guise of saving money. Small businesses go bust every time public pay is cut and the welfare bill goes up.

[Xray]

Lot's of different angles and issues on this subject - one mega thread would be unreadable for anyone coming to the discussion anew. Same time, think we should be careful not to needlessly start up new threads - to check and see what is already there before posting.

The public sector thing is ideological and has nothing to do with saving money. It's about creating an impoverished, unprotected workforce for big business for when/if the recovery starts. This is the neocons golden opportunity to eliminate welfare states all over the world - under the guise of saving money. Small businesses go bust every time public pay is cut and the welfare bill goes up.


That in a nutshell is what we are going to do, just be careful we don't end up with too many.

I agree with your point about cutting the pay, next it will be minimum wage, social welfare, professional fees etc etc. Its a great plan as it plays one group off against the other. Unfortunately its cheerleaders in IBEC etc forgot about stagflation and comsumer demand. They have done immense damage that may not be repairable. Economic, social and political damage.

[ang]

The dispute is going to the Labour Relations Commission tomorrow.


As a result of their industrial action, no detailed financial data or service performance reports are being provided and the HSE has a lack of reliable information on its overall position in relation to the €14 billion funds for which it is accountable.

“The board was advised that should this situation continue, it is very likely that the HSE will face a financial deficit later in the year, significantly raising the potential for an adverse effect on patient services,” it stated.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0426/1224269093564.html