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Maximus
08-07-2012, 11:09 AM
Do honestly believe in black and white that Lee Harvey Oswald, a deranged lone gunman, killed JFK on November 22nd 1963 and that's it? This was the story published by the government appointed Warren Commission of the 1960s and I for one don't believe it. Having watched plenty of videos, books and articles concerning the JFK assassination I have come to believe that if Oswald may or may not have done it and if he did he wasn't a lone gunman. Acoustics evidence has placed gunshots in Dealey Plaza on that day from the grassy knoll as well as from the direction of the School Book depository. From what I have read, I believe rogue elements from the CIA, mafia, secret service and other groups came together to eliminate Kennedy. Oswald may have used by them. The CIA because Kennedy was seen as light on Cuba and Communism, the mafia as JFK and his brother were bringing the mob to court. And why would Jack Ruby, a mob man, kill Oswald when the Kennedy administration was coming down on the mafia? Cos he allegedly felt sympathy for Jackie Kennedy? Yeah right. And the secret service...well those guys abandoned the rear of motorcade just before the assassination. Coincidence? Hardly.

It's the mother of all conspiracy theories that will probably never get closure.

Holly
08-07-2012, 04:55 PM
Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen. The easiest explanation is that Lee Oswald was the lone assassin. I too have watched entertaining programs offering alternative theories but they often had falsehoods and wild conjecture. There is no acoustic evidence which places gunshots from the grassy knoll. In the confusion, people did not know for sure where the shots were coming from.

Umbrella Man in Dealey Plaza - YouTube

Trow
08-07-2012, 05:51 PM
Acoustics evidence has placed gunshots in Dealey Plaza

Echo?

bernadette
08-07-2012, 06:00 PM
I've never believed that Oswald acted alone, and the entrance of Ruby suggests there was a serious Mafia connection.

Maximus
08-07-2012, 06:42 PM
There is no acoustic evidence which places gunshots from the grassy knoll. In the confusion, people did not know for sure where the shots were coming from.
]

If you read Anthony Summers' Kennedy Conspiracy you'll find there is proof of gunshots from the grassy knoll. The Congress Assassinations Committee recognised this in 1979.

Maximus
08-07-2012, 06:45 PM
I've never believed that Oswald acted alone, and the entrance of Ruby suggests there was a serious Mafia connection.

Exactly. As I said in the OP, Ruby hardly did it cos he felt sorry for Jackie Kennedy and didn't want to watch a gruelling court case involving Oswald. Ruby was a mafia man and the Kennedy administration were trying to take the mafia out. The fact Ruby shot Oswald makes it a conspiracy.

Holly
08-07-2012, 07:35 PM
If you read Anthony Summers' Kennedy Conspiracy you'll find there is proof of gunshots from the grassy knoll. The Congress Assassinations Committee recognised this in 1979.

In 1964, the Warren Commission concluded that only three shots were fired all from behind the President, all from the Texas School Book Depository, all from the bolt-action rifle of Lee Harvey Oswald. End of story. (Beginning of conspiracy-theory industry.) In 1979, an investigation conducted by Congress's House Assassinations Committee disagreed a fourth shot, which missed, had been fired from behind a white picket fence on that grassy knoll. In 1982, however, a special panel of the National Academy of Sciences insisted the fourth shot was random background noise, probably static.

The Presidential limousine was passing a grassy knoll on the north side of Elm Street at the moment of the fatal head shot. As the motorcade left the plaza, police officers and spectators ran up the knoll and from a railroad bridge over Elm Street (the Triple Underpass), to the area behind a five-foot (1.5 m) high stockade fence atop the knoll, separating it from a parking lot. No sniper was found.(Warren Commission Hearings, Testimony of Clyde Haygood) S. M. Holland, who had been watching the motorcade on the Triple Underpass, testified that "immediately" after the shots were fired, he went around the corner where the overpass joined the fence but did not see anyone running from the area.(Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 6, pp. 244245, Testimony of S. M. Holland) Lee Bowers, a railroad switchman sitting in a two-story tower, had an unobstructed view of the rear of the stockade fence atop the grassy knoll during the shooting. He saw a total of four men in the area between his tower and Elm Street: a middle-aged man and a younger man, standing 10 to 15 feet (3.0 to 4.6 m) apart near the Triple Underpass, who did not seem to know each other, and one or two uniformed parking lot attendants. At the time of the shooting, he saw "something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around," which he could not identify. Bowers testified that one or both of the men were still there when motorcycle officer Clyde Haygood ran up the grassy knoll to the back of the fence. In a 1966 interview, Bowers clarified that the two men he saw were standing in the opening between the pergola and the fence, and that "no one" was behind the fence at the time the shots were fired. (Transcript of filmed interview of Lee Bowers, Jr., p.124, Roll GH600, from Rush to Judgment, in the papers of Emile de Antonio, Wisconsin Historical Society Archives)

Trow
08-07-2012, 09:20 PM
It's the mother of all conspiracy theories that will probably never get closure.

[QUOTE=Maximus;260473 The fact Ruby shot Oswald makes it a conspiracy.[/QUOTE]

Conspiracy to what?

In your view why would the Mafia via Ruby shoot the man who shot their enemy?

joekilgobinet
08-07-2012, 09:48 PM
If you read Anthony Summers' Kennedy Conspiracy you'll find there is proof of gunshots from the grassy knoll. The Congress Assassinations Committee recognised this in 1979.

Anthony Summers' book is brilliant.
Gary Mack, who runs Texas School book depositry Museum, is always trying to prove the lone gunman theory. In any documentary I've seen with him, he's forever rubbishing any other theory, but the Lee Harvey Oswald one.

Baron von Biffo
08-07-2012, 11:08 PM
My own, possibly controversial, theory is that Ursula Halligan went back in time and took him out with a flower pot.

Apjp
08-07-2012, 11:11 PM
Castro says in his book that shortly before the death of Kennedy that he got a message from an intermediary that Kennedy wanted to talk soon to 'resume relations' probably with a view to ending/reducing the blockade in return for the withdrawal of some or all of the nuclear weapons. He also says that under the circumstances of what Kennedy inherited he was glad that he managed to limit the US armies actions to a blockade.

We'll probably never know why Kennedy was killed but we do know a lot of people probably had it in for him. First, or second gunman, who knows, but it will never be known who ordered the killing and why.

bernadette
08-07-2012, 11:15 PM
My own, possibly controversial, theory is that Ursula Halligan went back in time and took him out with a flower pot.

+10

Perfect except poor Ursula did not trip the flower pot man up. :p

Griska
09-07-2012, 04:35 PM
JFK was shot in Texas.
Some geezer was recreationally shooting at squirrels or possibly black folk nearby, and that's where the extra shots angle come into play.

Please disregard all other theories, because that is EXACTLY what happened.

Shooting squirrels is legal in Texas.
Shooting black folk appears to be still legal in Florida.
Not sure where the Texans stand on that matter today.

Dr. FIVE
09-07-2012, 04:47 PM
It's a bit like Jack the Ripper in so far as whoever is presenting the evidence can leave you in doubt that their theory is the correct one. However we do know there wasn't much a jump between shady government forces > the mob/Vegas > The Sands/Ratpack > Lawford/Kennedy and back round again.

If it was the mob it's not unlikely they were sanctioned by a higher power

Griska
09-07-2012, 04:54 PM
It's a bit like Jack the Ripper in so far as whoever is presenting the evidence can leave you in doubt that their theory is the correct one. However we do know there wasn't much a jump between shady government forces > the mob/Vegas > The Sands/Ratpack > Lawford/Kennedy and back round again.

If it was the mob it's not unlikely they were sanctioned by a higher power

Geezer shooting squirrels or black folk.
Please pay attention, my good doctor.

Baron von Biffo
09-07-2012, 04:56 PM
Geezer shooting squirrels or black folk.
Please pay attention, my good doctor.

You're obviously an NUJ member trying to deflect attention from Ursula Halligan.

Griska
09-07-2012, 05:02 PM
You're obviously an NUJ member trying to deflect attention from Ursula Halligan.

I've been reliably informed that Ursula was have her quiff lacquered that day.

Maximus
09-07-2012, 06:24 PM
In 1964, the Warren Commission concluded that only three shots were fired all from behind the President, all from the Texas School Book Depository, all from the bolt-action rifle of Lee Harvey Oswald. End of story. (Beginning of conspiracy-theory industry.) In 1979, an investigation conducted by Congress's House Assassinations Committee disagreed a fourth shot, which missed, had been fired from behind a white picket fence on that grassy knoll. In 1982, however, a special panel of the National Academy of Sciences insisted the fourth shot was random background noise, probably static.

The Presidential limousine was passing a grassy knoll on the north side of Elm Street at the moment of the fatal head shot. As the motorcade left the plaza, police officers and spectators ran up the knoll and from a railroad bridge over Elm Street (the Triple Underpass), to the area behind a five-foot (1.5 m) high stockade fence atop the knoll, separating it from a parking lot. No sniper was found.(Warren Commission Hearings, Testimony of Clyde Haygood) S. M. Holland, who had been watching the motorcade on the Triple Underpass, testified that "immediately" after the shots were fired, he went around the corner where the overpass joined the fence but did not see anyone running from the area.(Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 6, pp. 244245, Testimony of S. M. Holland) Lee Bowers, a railroad switchman sitting in a two-story tower, had an unobstructed view of the rear of the stockade fence atop the grassy knoll during the shooting. He saw a total of four men in the area between his tower and Elm Street: a middle-aged man and a younger man, standing 10 to 15 feet (3.0 to 4.6 m) apart near the Triple Underpass, who did not seem to know each other, and one or two uniformed parking lot attendants. At the time of the shooting, he saw "something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around," which he could not identify. Bowers testified that one or both of the men were still there when motorcycle officer Clyde Haygood ran up the grassy knoll to the back of the fence. In a 1966 interview, Bowers clarified that the two men he saw were standing in the opening between the pergola and the fence, and that "no one" was behind the fence at the time the shots were fired. (Transcript of filmed interview of Lee Bowers, Jr., p.124, Roll GH600, from Rush to Judgment, in the papers of Emile de Antonio, Wisconsin Historical Society Archives)

Well I should have stated the book said the grassy knoll shot isn't identified as having definitely killed the president and I wasn't aware of the 1982 finding. I must read up about it. Not mentioned in Anthony Summers' book.

A number of witnesses close to the grassy knoll said they heard shots from there. And these people weren't even questioned by the FBI or the Warren Commission.

In Summers' book, a police officer reported a car driving away from the back road of the grassy knoll which was never caught as the officer reported it too late.

As for the shots coming from the School Book Depository, when shooting a person or item the shot generally goes in the direction of the shot not back towards the shot which places a question mark over the fatal shot coming from the School Book Depository, behind JFK, as he lurches backwards not forwards.

And finally I finish with this. Video of the Black Dog Man in the grassy knoll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAWdzh-dmSo



Conspiracy to what?

In your view why would the Mafia via Ruby shoot the man who shot their enemy?

That is my point. They should have been raising a beer to this guy not shooting the guy.

Trow
09-07-2012, 06:51 PM
Conspiracy to what?

In your view why would the Mafia via Ruby shoot the man who shot their enemy?




That is my point. They should have been raising a beer to this guy not shooting the guy.

Was'nt Ruby a lower level criminal maybe loosely associated with the mafia?

Fearing a Government backlash and to protect his own interests decided to become a hero for a day?

Holly
09-07-2012, 08:29 PM
...
A number of witnesses close to the grassy knoll said they heard shots from there. And these people weren't even questioned by the FBI or the Warren Commission.
If their testimony was not taken then their evidence is not on record, I suppose.


In Summers' book, a police officer reported a car driving away from the back road of the grassy knoll which was never caught as the officer reported it too late.
Not much to go on here.


As for the shots coming from the School Book Depository, when shooting a person or item the shot generally goes in the direction of the shot not back towards the shot which places a question mark over the fatal shot coming from the School Book Depository, behind JFK, as he lurches backwards not forwards.
On the contrary, exit wounds from the head are always more traumatic than entry wounds. At the request of the Attorney General of the United States Ramsey Clark, four physicians met in Washington, DC on February 26 and 27, 1868 to examine various photographs, X-ray films documents and other evidence pertaining to the death of President Kennedy, and to evaluate their significance in relation to the medical conclusions recorded in the Autopsy Report on the body of President Kennedy signed by Commander J. J. Humes, Medical Corps, US Navy; Commander J. Thornton Boswell, Medical Corps, US Navy and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, Medical Corps, US Army and in the Supplemental Report signed by Commander Humes. These appear in the Warren Commission Report at pages 538 to 545. In their discussion they write, "The decedent was wounded by two bullets, both of which entered his body from behind. One bullet struck the back of the decedent's head well above the external occipital protuberance. Based upon the observation that he was leaning forward with his head turned obliquely to the left when this bullet struck, the photographs and X-rays indicate that it came from a site above and slightly to his right. This bullet fragmented after entering the cranium, one major piece of it passing forward and laterally to produce an explosive fracture of the right side of the skull as it emerged from the head. The absence of metallic fragments in the left cerebral hemisphere or below the level of the frontal fossa on the right side together with the absence of any holes in it the skull to the left of the midline or in its base and the absence of any penetrating injury of the left hemisphere, eliminate with reasonable certainty the possibility of a projectile having passed through the head in any direction other than from back to front as described in preceding sections of this report."


And finally I finish with this. Video of the Black Dog Man in the grassy knoll ...
I saw no black dog man in the fuzzy pictures despite the images being "enhanced" or manipulated.

TotalMayhem
10-07-2012, 11:56 AM
Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, The Mafia, keeps 'em guessing like some kind of parlor game, prevents 'em from asking the most important question: why? Why was Kennedy Killed? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?

I recently read this book by Phillip F. Nelson, who is making a compelling case that LBJ masterminded the Kennedy assassination (http://www.lbj-themastermind.com/book.htm). He benefitted most and certainly had the means and the power to cover it up.

C. Flower
10-07-2012, 01:43 PM
Whatever became of "The Lone Gunman" - so busy about the place in the 60s and 70s? Has he gone out of fashion, or is there no-one considered worth assassinating making it into politics or the arts these days?

Griska
10-07-2012, 01:50 PM
Whatever became of "The Lone Gunman" - so busy about the place in the 60s and 70s? Has he gone out of fashion, or is there no-one considered worth assassinating making it into politics or the arts these days?

Poor guy got arthritis in his trigger finger.
Occupational hazard, I suppose.

Maximus
10-07-2012, 06:08 PM
If their testimony was not taken then their evidence is not on record, I suppose.


Not much to go on here.


On the contrary, exit wounds from the head are always more traumatic than entry wounds. At the request of the Attorney General of the United States Ramsey Clark, four physicians met in Washington, DC on February 26 and 27, 1868 to examine various photographs, X-ray films documents and other evidence pertaining to the death of President Kennedy, and to evaluate their significance in relation to the medical conclusions recorded in the Autopsy Report on the body of President Kennedy signed by Commander J. J. Humes, Medical Corps, US Navy; Commander J. Thornton Boswell, Medical Corps, US Navy and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, Medical Corps, US Army and in the Supplemental Report signed by Commander Humes. These appear in the Warren Commission Report at pages 538 to 545. In their discussion they write, "The decedent was wounded by two bullets, both of which entered his body from behind. One bullet struck the back of the decedent's head well above the external occipital protuberance. Based upon the observation that he was leaning forward with his head turned obliquely to the left when this bullet struck, the photographs and X-rays indicate that it came from a site above and slightly to his right. This bullet fragmented after entering the cranium, one major piece of it passing forward and laterally to produce an explosive fracture of the right side of the skull as it emerged from the head. The absence of metallic fragments in the left cerebral hemisphere or below the level of the frontal fossa on the right side together with the absence of any holes in it the skull to the left of the midline or in its base and the absence of any penetrating injury of the left hemisphere, eliminate with reasonable certainty the possibility of a projectile having passed through the head in any direction other than from back to front as described in preceding sections of this report."


I saw no black dog man in the fuzzy pictures despite the images being "enhanced" or manipulated.


So you reckon Oswald did it. We could go back and forward arguing over lone gunman or second gunman. However, do you believe it was simply Oswald a crazed lone gunmen sniper killed Kennedy? Or Oswald working for the CIA/Mafia/Cuban exiles to kill JFK? And Oswald did have links with both. His uncle Charles Murret was in the mafia and he visited regularly just before the assassination. As for intelligence, he was seen with severely intelligence men. One being Guy Banister, a former FBI agent.

Holly
10-07-2012, 10:46 PM
So you reckon Oswald did it. We could go back and forward arguing over lone gunman or second gunman. However, do you believe it was simply Oswald a crazed lone gunmen sniper killed Kennedy? Or Oswald working for the CIA/Mafia/Cuban exiles to kill JFK? And Oswald did have links with both. His uncle Charles Murret was in the mafia and he visited regularly just before the assassination. As for intelligence, he was seen with severely intelligence men. One being Guy Banister, a former FBI agent.

Oswald was a complex person, a malcontent, and emotionally unpredictable. He was awarded Marine Corps sharpshooter medal.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j480/rogerduke1/marinecorpssharpshooter.jpg
From childhood he was withdrawn and temperamental. He was prone to narcissistic and eccentric actions such as going to live in Russia when he claimed to be a Communist but was soon disabused of his pipedream. He was singularly not capable of working with others, especially in an elaborate conspiracy to murder the president. In short, he was a nutcase, quite capable of acting alone to make his mark in history.

bernadette
12-07-2012, 05:16 PM
Oswald was a complex person, a malcontent, and emotionally unpredictable. He was awarded Marine Corps sharpshooter medal.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j480/rogerduke1/marinecorpssharpshooter.jpg
From childhood he was withdrawn and temperamental. He was prone to narcissistic and eccentric actions such as going to live in Russia when he claimed to be a Communist but was soon disabused of his pipedream. He was singularly not capable of working with others, especially in an elaborate conspiracy to murder the president. In short, he was a nutcase, quite capable of acting alone to make his mark in history.

Or he was good enough to be used and discarded as soon as the job was done. I understand Ruby had a terminal illness, like your average soon to die person thinks nothing is more important than avenging the death of a president.

Maximus
12-07-2012, 08:36 PM
Or he was good enough to be used and discarded as soon as the job was done. I understand Ruby had a terminal illness, like your average soon to die person thinks nothing is more important than avenging the death of a president.

In Summers' book, Ruby is described as being close to Santas Trafficante, who once said 'The president will get hit' referring to Kennedy. Ruby also interest in Cuba where he provided guns for Castro before everyone realised Castro would turn Cuba into a Communist country and ruin the mob's business there.

Ruby saying he did this on the spur of the moment to save Jackie Kennedy a trial is a load of rubbish. How he even got into the police basement when Oswald was being transported suggests he must have paid his way into the basement via the police.

joekilgobinet
15-07-2012, 09:22 PM
Missed shot

It is an accepted fact that a bullet or a bullet fragment struck the concrete curb on the north side of Main Street near the Triple Overpass. A nearby onlooker, James Tague was struck on the cheek by the ricocheting concrete or a minute shred of the fragmenting bullet.

http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/MissedShot.htm

Maximus
28-08-2012, 09:47 PM
Started reading Gerald Posner's anti conspiracy book Case Closed. About 75 pages though and while it is detailed and well done I don't know if I can take the words of an author who is a proven plagiarist, gave unauthorised/false forensic positions in the book and couldn't produce tapes before Congress to support some of his claims in the book.

C. Flower
28-08-2012, 09:54 PM
Ruby cannot even remember doing it
he has hypnotized into firing to it by a CIA black op unit.
They did the same with Sirhan Bishara Sirhan in the assassination of United States Senator Robert F. Kennedy.

Whoever did these killings, the idea that there was this random rash of "lone gunmen" is hard to believe.

But if the CIA had perfected use of people as zombie killers in the 1960s, why did they stop ?

Maximus
28-08-2012, 09:56 PM
But if the CIA had perfected use of people as zombie killers in the 1960s, why did they stop ?

Sirhan Sirhan, RFK's killer, is believed to have been one such example. It is alleged he doesn't remember the shooting and just relapsed to find himself charged with murder of RFK.

C. Flower
17-11-2013, 10:10 PM
To be honest I'm not too bothered about how many gunmen, grassy knolls or bullets were used to kill John F. Kennedy, but I would be interested to know why he was killed.
I've never heard any convincing reason given.

This story, I came across coincidentally yesterday, and it involves named individuals, including Cord Meyer, and Timothy Leary whose names ring interesting bells.
A commie plot to turn State leaders (including JFK) on with LSD to achieve world peace was bothering the CIA, so they topped both JFK and Mary Pinchot Meyer ? Well, why not ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Pinchot_Meyer

Both Leary, and LSD, have a bunch of associations with the CIA, not mentioned in the wiki page on Meyer's wife, a lover of John F. Kennedy.

This all seems to be far too bizarre to be true, but enough of it is established to give an idea of some of the complexities surrounding the JFK murder.

Holly
18-11-2013, 01:51 PM
Conspiracies are a dime a dozen. No-one can prove it was other than Oswald as a lone gunman. As for his motive, he was exceptionally political enamored by Marxism and the Soviet Union even marrying a Russian. Quite nuts.

C. Flower
18-11-2013, 04:29 PM
Whoever did these killings, the idea that there was this random rash of "lone gunmen" is hard to believe.

But if the CIA had perfected use of people as zombie killers in the 1960s, why did they stop ?

Perhaps because after the 1960s only their own people made it to the top :)

Trow
18-11-2013, 04:42 PM
Whoever did these killings, the idea that there was this random rash of "lone gunmen" is hard to believe.

But if the CIA had perfected use of people as zombie killers in the 1960s, why did they stop ?


Perhaps because after the 1960s only their own people made it to the top :)

Project MK ULTRA?
Quote.. Project MKUltra is the code name of an illegal U.S. government human research operation experimenting in the behavioral engineering of humans through the CIA's Scientific Intelligence Division. The program began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967 and officially halted in 1973 unquote. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

Note the years the project was reduced and further curtailed.

TotalMayhem
18-11-2013, 11:20 PM
No-one can prove it was other than Oswald as a lone gunman. As for his motive, he was exceptionally political enamored by Marxism and the Soviet Union even marrying a Russian. Quite nuts.

And that makes you want to kill the President of the United States? ^^

It was rather simple: Homicide detectives approach a murder case with two questions, Qui bono? and Who had the means, motive and opprtunity? It only got very complicated when the prime suspect suddenly became President and thus untouchable. LBJ was quite nuts indeed, a patholigical liar and a psycopath who did not shy from murder when it suited him.

C. Flower
11-09-2016, 11:00 AM
Last week there was a report of one of the President's security men alleging that "It was Security what done it". No evidence presented.

This week, ABC has made an agreement with Caroline Kennedy to withdraw their dramatised version of the Kennedy Family's history, in exchange for early release of Jaqui Onassis / Kennedy's tapes, made by her soon after the assassination, in which she states her belief that LBJ was behind the assassination, backed by a group of Texan tycoons. Not the first time it has been said she believed this, but the tapes will allow us to hear her in her own words.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/jackie-kennedy-blamed-lyndon-b-johnson-for-jfk-murder-127220093-237788131