Can education be the driving force for recovery?

[Ephilant]

During an exchange of ideas with another poster it was mentioned that a thread on the role of education as a way out of the mess the world finds itself in would be a good idea. So, here goes. Youth unemployment is a major problem world wide. Official EU statistics on Youth unemployment make for grim reading

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/1/13/Youth_unemployment%2C_2011Q4_%28%25%29.png

This graph does not show the figures for 2012 yet, which show an ever deteriorating situation. Spain has now reached a rate of 50%, Greece has just topped the 55%. But this is not just a Spanish or Greek problem. In April 2012, EU statistic show that a whopping 5.462 million people between the ages of 15-25 were unemployed in the EU, of which 3.358 million live in the Eurozone.Bad as they are, these figures don't come anywhere near showing the full extent of the problem, which must include the human misery and suffering caused by unemployment, and the cost this has on society through e.g. the increased demand for health and social care systems, which are precisely the areas where governments are making severe cuts to "save" money.

As stated elsewhere in on of his posts, Spectablis notes that

One of the dismal features of universities is that they want 'the numbers' . FTEs are the holy grail, that is Full-Time Equivalent student numbers. This number is fed into equations on which funding to Departments and recruitment of staff are based. and also

So like property and other 'commodities,' in education growth is God. I feel that there is actually a bubble in Higher Education now and that the goal should be consolidation and quality of what we have achieved (including better social inclusion - age, class, disability, gender.. ) and stop the proliferation of courses and the credentials inflation.
I believe this to be symptom rather than cause. The whole educational system is set up on the wrong basis. Simply on a practical level, young people (17-18) have spent the last 10 years of their lives learning parrot fashion, regurgitating over and over again what teacher tells them. And then the exams arrive, and he/she who can regurgitate best gets "rewarded"with the A+ badge.Kids are not rewarded or encouraged to think for themselves, to explore possibilites, to make a case for something. Of course, we "make up" for that with "debating societies" etc. but what do they do here? Exactly the same!
And then, tertiary level arrives. Not only are these kids pushed into a system where they are suddenly expected to make a case and defend it instead of just regurgitating information spoon fed by the teacher, they are in the vast majority of cases simply not ready in terms of their "maturity" to take that step into Tertiary education. How so? I am sure the same thing happens in Ireland as does here. Even before kids sit their Lyceum exam (the equivalent of the leaving cert), career guidance counsellors start bombarding them with "possibilities". What are these possibilities based on? At best an educated guess as to what "the economy" will need "to grow" worst case scenario, what colleges and universities need to keep certain courses going. Not too many counsellors actually ask the kids "what would you like to do?". Mainly because the answer almost invariably is "I don't know". And that is precisely the problem. Why are we so shocked at 30% drop-out levels from first year college and university students?
That in it's own right should be a serious indicator that something is wrong with the system and a rethink is needed. It is safe to say that a large proportion of these "drop outs" end up as an unemployment statistic, which is another good reason for having a serious rethink on what education is and should be.
So, the question is, how do we redefine education and make it a driving force for change and societal recovery, rather than just looking at education as a tool to fulfill economic requirments?

[ZeroWedge]

The way that education could be a "driving force for recovery" is if the state sells off the schools and colleges and uses the proceeds to redeem sovereign bonds.

The education system, as we knew it in the 20th century is finished. Technology makes university lectures obsolete. Why spend money going to a lecture theatre when you can watch and even better pre-recorded lecture, at home via the internet.

It is now possible to attend courses delivered at top universities like Yale, Stanford etc, from your computer at home.

Of course technologically illiterate public sector leeches in Irish universities will resist progress and try to hang onto their privileges as long as possible.

[Ephilant]

Would the content of the lecture not be a lot more important than the method with which it is delivered? And pre-recorded lectures don't really leave much room for interaction, do they?

[ZeroWedge]

Would the content of the lecture not be a lot more important than the method with which it is delivered?I dont understand your point. Delivery over the internet allows everyone to get the best lecture content in the world from the best universities, without needing to be awarded a place at that university. Scarcity of places will be a thing of the past. Anyone who wants will be able to listen to. This will be a boon for what leftwingers call "underprivileged" sections of society.


And pre-recorded lectures don't really leave much room for interaction, do they?You obviously havent spent much time in universities. Most university lectures have at least 50 people attending, and do not involve much interaction. The lecturer presents the material and the attendees take notes.

In fact pre-recorded lectures are superior to real time lectures, because you can pause and rewind and listen to the material repeatedly until it is understood.

Its left wing people like you who retard human progress. Trying to dumb everyone else down because you envy anyone who has ability.

[Ephilant]

Its left wing people like you who retard human progress. Trying to dumb everyone else down because you envy anyone who has ability.

I could also try to dumb somebody down by being aggressively rude, crude and offensive maybe?

[C. Flower]

I dont understand your point. Delivery over the internet allows everyone to get the best lecture content in the world from the best universities, without needing to be awarded a place at that university. Scarcity of places will be a thing of the past. Anyone who wants will be able to listen to. This will be a boon for what leftwingers call "underprivileged" sections of society.

You obviously havent spent much time in universities. Most university lectures have at least 50 people attending, and do not involve much interaction. The lecturer presents the material and the attendees take notes.

In fact pre-recorded lectures are superior to real time lectures, because you can pause and rewind and listen to the material repeatedly until it is understood.

Its left wing people like you who retard human progress. Trying to dumb everyone else down because you envy anyone who has ability.

There is clearly a place for internet learning. But Ephilant has a point about face-to-face contact being important too.

The best educational systems are likely to include both.

Universities are not just about absorbing data - they are also about learning to research, analyse, debate and communicate findings.

However, whether lectures are delivered online/skyped or in person is not the central issue perhaps in looking at the extent to which education can drive recovery.

[Count Bobulescu]

However, whether lectures are delivered online/skyped or in person is not the central issue perhaps in looking at the extent to which education can drive recovery.
Indeed! Education is the medium to long term solution to economic success. Much harder to see how it fits into a short term recovery plan. Depends to some extent on how you define eduction. Formally through an institution, or ongoing workplace training as well. Either way it’s just one tool in the bag that is necessary for this godawful mess.

[Sam Lord]

The role of the education system is to serve the socio-economic system. It will not be any different in any fundamental way until the socio-economic system is changed. And it certainly will not drive any recovery of capitalism which has run its course.

[Ephilant]

I would have thought that one thing we can agree on, left, right or centre, is that we're in a mess. Depending on which side you're on/lean to, a variety of solutions are being proposed, all of which, as we can clearly see (and we here in Greece experience daily) don't do anything. Or a t best, serve those that make the proposal, while the vast majority of people are being hit hard.
To me, the current situation indicates quite clearly that we are not simply looking at a "hick-up", but at a complete system failure. And all the patches applied during and after previous hick-ups have only resulted in kicking the can further down the road. But of course, with every kick the can gets more dented.
I think we have to look in a different direction for solution. And as Sam rightfully says, so far, education has served one purpose and one purpose only, the maintaining of the socio-economic system we live(d?) in. Which is precisely my point. Is it not time to have a good hard look at what education is, should be, and can it be the key to unlock that door which remains firmly shut, despite all the "measures"? If we accept that education is responsible for establishing and maintaining the socio-economic system we live in, does it then not follow that education can also be responsible for changes or even a completely new socio-economic system? Maybe a redefining of education would be a good place to start?

[jmcc]

The education system, as we knew it in the 20th century is finished. Technology makes university lectures obsolete. Why spend money going to a lecture theatre when you can watch and even better pre-recorded lecture, at home via the internet.That's great for theoretical stuff and toilet paper degrees but not much good for practical stuff where hands-on experience and expertise is required. For example, designing a printed circuit board by hand and then etching it, cleaning it, drilling it and assembling the design is not something that can be done over the web. The same would apply for other areas of engineering and the hard sciences.

Regards...jmcc

[jmcc]

Maybe a redefining of education would be a good place to start?Redefining education would be good but there's also a possibility it would show that a lot of what passes for Third Level education is really a method of keeping people out of the unemployment figures.

Regards...jmcc

[culmore]

Is this just a thread to help Teachers and lecturers pay and avoid cuts

[Ephilant]

Redefining education would be good but there's also a possibility it would show that a lot of what passes for Third Level education is really a method of keeping people out of the unemployment figures.

Regards...jmcc

Indeed, so wouldn't that be all the more reason to redefine it? there was a time that army conscription was used to massage the unemployment figures, in fact, at some stage here in Greece "unruly" students were simply drafted into the army as "punishment". and that is not so long ago either.

I think that that the main problem with Third level education is that those that enter it do so out of a sense of "having to do something" instead of desire to learn and create opportunities for themselves, armed with an education instead of a weapon honed to serve the current economic requirements, whatever they may be.
I also think that all educational systems, where-ever they are based, suffer from the onset of apathy as soon as they get established.
Today "education" is equated with "going to school" and "learning". the origin of the word is the latin "educere", composed of "ex" and "ducere", which mean "out" and "lead".
I have a strong suspicion that there is not too much "leading out" going on in the education systems of this world, which could possibly be the reason for the rather cryptic post above

Is this just a thread to help Teachers and lecturers pay and avoid cuts

[Sam Lord]

@Ephilant

Is Freire as popular in Greece as he is in North America?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed

[Ephilant]

Is Freire as popular in Greece as he is in North America?

If he isn't, he should be...
I have looked and questioned the current model of education (the Irish system is not much different from the Greek system) based on what I witnessed as a father of a rather large bunch of kids. My eldest daughter, mother of 4 , went back to university at the age of 39 to study psychology, and hasn't looked back since. She was very lucky to end up with tutors who recognized that as a mother of 4, she would have a lot of experience that would positively contribute to the lectures, which she now says forced her to formulate for others what she did naturally as a mother in certain situations.
This is why I think this notion of Third level having to follow immediately upon finishing second level is so very wrong, and the drop-out figures back me up on that. I wonder has anybody actually ever done a study on how many kids don't go the third level because the simply don't know what to do there? And how many of those, and the drop-outs, manage to get back in as "mature students"?
If anything, I would content that kids should be thaught usefull, practical things in secondary, stuff like driving a car without turning it into a killing machine etc, and the basics of what could be labelled "academic knowledge". But a 17-18 year old finishing his/her leaving is in the vast majority of cases not ready within themselves to go on and get the most out of an education. Unless of course you continue to treat them as a vessel that needs to be filled with even more stuff. If anything, I actually think that 17-18 year olds should not be allowed anywhere near a university or college until they are ready for it. A proper maturity test prior to acceptance in a University would go a long way to turning these places into what they are supposed to be, places of education.
I fully agree with the notion that a student is a co-creator rather than a recipient of knowledge, which is why I don't like the idea of pre-recorded lectures. Interaction is an essential part of co-creation. One of the things I believe to be very wrong in the educational system is the notion that the lecturer/teacher is some sort of oracle dispensing knowledge, and can do so unquestioned. It is equally unacceptable to treat a student as a vessel that needs filling up with what somebody else decides they need.

[Apjp]

A business and languages degree can get you a nice job making sandwiches in Australia or working in a bookshop in Berlin. Emigration on the brightside will lead to FFs recovery.

[C. Flower]

Ruth Padel says Greek's excellent universities are at risk.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ruth-padel-greek-crisis-imperils-a-nations-heritage-7834937.html

[Ephilant]

Well, they would be. All being normal, the universities (except for the Open University) are state funded, and there are no fees. Same goes for the Colleges, witht the odd exception of a few privately run places.
But as the Greek State has no funding, and the Greek people have no money, it's hard to see how this, or any education system can be kept going. And the "no funding" applies to wages as well. On the last count, there were over 900 lecturers who had not been paid for a signifcant period, some up to 2 years.
But the problem runs a lot deeper. It's not just universities that suffer. One of the teachers in our local school has not been paid in over 18 months. The school itself has had no supplies, to the point that there is no chalk to write on the blackboard, no copies, no pencils, etc. This particular teacher looks after what you would call senior infants, 1st and 2nd class primary, all in all about 65 children.
She is thankfully very dedicated and creative, and the community supports her in every way possible. But 18 months without wages...
And it once again questions the whole concept of "education" and the setip of the system.