Anyone else so disappointed with the result of Fiscal Treaty vote?

[jinnyjoe]

I voted no obviously and so did most of my colleagues , neighbours and friends, the two I know who didn't gave the following reasons 1. Afraid that they would have no pension and 2.Afraid they would have no social welfare payment.

I asked them did they understand exactly what they were voting Yes for? and they said not really, just felt afraid. I asked them then if they didn't understand what they were voting for why not vote No and wait and see, they saw the logic, but it was too late...........I am so bitterly disappointed in our nation and government and just felt we had a chance a real chance to show our disappointment in this inept leadership and we threw it away. I am by no means as articulate and as knowledgeable as most of the posters here but just felt like venting some steam.:mad:

[eamo]

I I am by no means as articulate and as knowledgeable as most of the posters here but just felt like venting some steam.:mad:

You are a lot more articulate than you give your self credit for, and in some spheres I bet you know more than anyone here. It was a very disappointing result, but history is a long story. It ain't over yet.

[jinnyjoe]

You are a lot more articulate than you give your self credit for, and in some spheres I bet you know more than anyone here. It was a very disappointing result, but history is a long story. It ain't over yet.

Yes Eamo but you know what annoys me most is that the majority of voters didn't even understand the treaty and yet voted Yes, Why Why Why vote for something you don't understand, it means they placed a trust in a government that has proved inept, without leadership and down right liars. If our own Taoiseach feels he cannot debate such an important change in our constitution on television and yet feels capable of negogiating our future in Europe with leaders like Merkel etc. the mind just boggles, is it just me or cannot the majority of people see this???

I asked one of the people whom I know voted Yes about Enda's inability to debate on tv about this and they said "Ah sure he's just a bad communicator and afraid he'll mess it up!!!!!!!!!!" I said yeah right what about communicating with Ollie and Angela and communicating with them, surely communicating is a fundemental characteristic of being a Prime Minister/Taoiseach:(

[culmore]

The shinners say No to everything following the Ian Paisley way after they got into bed with Ulster Says No. When will they except the will of they people, ok they never did just bombed their views on the people

[eamo]

I know how you feel, but the most tenacious activitists I have known all had an "O WELL!!" lets just carry on attitude. Stoical I think is the right word. And they just carried on!! I think too much anger and too much even commitment can lead to disappointment, disillusionment, and disengagement. Far better to say "****** IT!!" and just carry on. As I said, history aint over yet, but it will be if we don't start cooperating on this planet, and stop our fixation with competing. This is a set back, it is not the end of anything. The fight for humanity goes on, and if anyone thinks that is a bit grandiose, wel.......yea, you can guess what they can do:D

[eamo]

The shinners say No to everything following the Ian Paisley way after they got into bed with Ulster Says No. When will they except the will of they people, ok they never did just bombed their views on the people

Wha?

[Shaadi]

The shinners say No to everything following the Ian Paisley way after they got into bed with Ulster Says No. When will they except the will of they people, ok they never did just bombed their views on the peopleA bluebottle just landed. Your leader is perfect for the country, a chicken leading chickens. It's just a pity he's a headless chicken, off you go now and make plans to sell off the country to your friends in Europe.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTx1FJI8LYOy0AkC0hoPjqQb-Z5WuGeyCHRSqpDNUyYEUUFcUkV

Shoo fly don't bother me.

[eamo]

A bluebottle just landed. Your leader is perfect for the country, a chicken leading chickens. It's just a pity he's a headless chicken, off you go now and make plans to sell the country off to your friends in Europe.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTx1FJI8LYOy0AkC0hoPjqQb-Z5WuGeyCHRSqpDNUyYEUUFcUkV

Shoo fly don't bother me.

Can you imagine Scarcosy (I know, and I cant be arsed looking up how to spell his name) doing that to Putin (I looked that up:D) or Obama (did not need to look it up)or Cameroon (couldnt be arsed again).

[Shaadi]

Don't be too disappointed, it was to be expected, after all this is Ireland land of the venal and cowardly. Life will go on, take care of your family and friends and hold your nose when you're in the company of Tayto Eating Surrender Monkeys. :)

[Andrew49]

I voted no obviously and so did most of my colleagues , neighbours and friends, the two I know who didn't gave the following reasons 1. Afraid that they would have no pension and 2.Afraid they would have no social welfare payment.

I asked them did they understand exactly what they were voting Yes for? and they said not really, just felt afraid. I asked them then if they didn't understand what they were voting for why not vote No and wait and see, they saw the logic, but it was too late...........I am so bitterly disappointed in our nation and government and just felt we had a chance a real chance to show our disappointment in this inept leadership and we threw it away. I am by no means as articulate and as knowledgeable as most of the posters here but just felt like venting some steam.:mad:

Various emotions were running through me ... throughout the campaign, at the count and at the result.

Disappointed to be sure but not to a high level as I expected a Yes 'win'. I expected a 65% Yes vote!!!!

We Irish don't do rebellion well (well the Irish down south) ... not since the Famine in anyway. Maybe the Famine knocked it out of us .. maybe the Brits .... maybe the Catholic Church ... maybe the gombeens we elected since 1922 slowly but surely wiped the spirit out of us. None of those governments/Dails inspired ... individuals did .. Captain Cowan, Noel Browne for one, Eileen Desmond, Tony Gregory, Mary Robinson when a Senator, Jim Kemmy ....

I was pleased though that the mainstream parties share of the vote fell since the General Election - from 70% then to 60% this time. Maybe I'm clutching at straws but a 10% drop has to have significance!!?!

I was pleased at Sinn Fein's evident professionalism in the campaign ... and their ability to get their issues 'out there' and discussed - even though they got rubbished by the lame-stream media they got people talking. I'm not a Sinn Feiner by any stretch but I wish the Left started acting and behaving more like them. The Left got a good bit of exposure but could have gotten more if they'd got themselves in the driving seat as often as Sinn Fein are able to. That said Paul Murphy(?) came good, as did Claire Byrne and Boyd-Barrett ... but they should have (could have?) made a bigger impact.

I was thrilled at the use of new media to spread alternative views/news/opinion. This new media - for the most part - is not subject to the same degree of control that the mainstream is.

Over all almost a SSDD kind of result ,,, but some positives that need exploiting by progressives.

[jinnyjoe]

I know how you feel, but the most tenacious activitists I have known all had an "O WELL!!" lets just carry on attitude. Stoical I think is the right word. And they just carried on!! I think too much anger and too much even commitment can lead to disappointment, disillusionment, and disengagement. Far better to say "****** IT!!" and just carry on. As I said, history aint over yet, but it will be if we don't start cooperating on this planet, and stop our fixation with competing. This is a set back, it is not the end of anything. The fight for humanity goes on, and if anyone thinks that is a bit grandiose, wel.......yea, you can guess what they can do:D

You are right of course........... but I did get a bit of a feeling from those very brave workers at Vita Cortex ........solidarity does exist but in very small doses........did anyone else feel like I did when they won their case how sticking together really works, it was proved time and time again in the 70's, our fathers can tell that story. The Government are waging a very successful campaign of divide and conquer, and most are falling for it, it makes me soooo mad. Solidarity is the way to go forward in this horrible situation we all find ourselves in, we ALL want a bettter quality of life for our families not just some.... and sticking together is the only way to overcome it. I am perhaps a bit idealistic.........

[eamo]

you are right of course........... But i did get a bit of a feeling from those very brave workers at vita cortex ........solidarity does exist but in very small doses........did anyone else feel like i did when they won their case how sticking together really works, it was proved time and time again in the 70's, our fathers can tell that story. The government are waging a very successful campaign of divide and conquer, and most are falling for it, it makes me soooo mad. Solidarity is the way to go forward in this horrible situation we all find ourselves in, we all want a bettter quality of life for our families not just some.... And sticking together is the only way to overcome it. I am perhaps a bit idealistic.........
+100%

[Apjp]

Just thought I'd post the French and German reaction http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/irish-vote-yes-in-fiscal-pact-referendum-a-836483.html

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2012/06/01/les-irlandais-auraient-dit-oui-au-pacte-budgetaire-europeen_1711315_3234.html

For those of ye who cannot read French, there's always google translate.

[Apjp]

The shinners say No to everything following the Ian Paisley way after they got into bed with Ulster Says No. When will they except the will of they people, ok they never did just bombed their views on the people

Your party was started by fascists that if it weren't for Frank Ryan and Tom Barry's leftwing IRA at the time, might well have started another civil war/tried to get us mixed up with the nazis in ww2. If it was up to the original blueshirts, we would've had a lot of people bombed on. Why do you and your rabid establishment party along with the herald, sindo, RTE, FF etc. persist with this dogged lunacy of pretending a conflict didn't happen in Ulster due to the conditions in which Irish people were living? Lets see your home burned by the B specials or your family shot by an occupying army for protesting and see how you like it. ******* hypocrite. I'd almost vote SF the next time out just to get your pyscho party out(almost).

[Apjp]

A bluebottle just landed. Your leader is perfect for the country, a chicken leading chickens. It's just a pity he's a headless chicken, off you go now and make plans to sell off the country to your friends in Europe.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTx1FJI8LYOy0AkC0hoPjqQb-Z5WuGeyCHRSqpDNUyYEUUFcUkV

Shoo fly don't bother me.

Maybe the problem with the Irish electorate is that by always staying in Ireland they stay too Irish and don't learn to expect anything i.e. the right to sovereignty. All the smart people leave.

[Andrew49]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/Imaxertyge9.jpg


German banks, in particular, are heavily exposed to Irish sovereign debt, carrying about 150 billion euros ($187 billion) worth on their books. That dwarfs their remaining exposure to Greece, and the problem isn’t confined to the euro area: U.K. banks hold about 180 billion euros of Irish debt. LINK (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-29/eu-won-t-treat-irish-as-greeks-if-they-vote-no-.html)

If Kenny isn't able to convince Merkel on writing-down the bank debt after this referendum .... there'll be disappointment all round!

[disability student]

I was very disappointed with the result and even lost a bet. Otherwise Paddy power would have paid out €500. Anyway i got over that.

One poster said it right re govt use of divide and conquer tactics and the lack of solidarity as well.Next time we could learn how to stop divide and conquer tactics. It was difficult to fight on their own such as SF but they came out well and kudos to them. They will be the main opposition party if not perhaps in Govt.

ULA were ineffective & toothless and they are still useless really. I have argued for a new party as ULA doesn't give a real impact as they did last time in GE. Perhaps Ganley or some IND's such as Donnelly would take a lot of voters and goodwill as well.

Need a new party something along the lines of Syzria as they have captured Greek's people imaginations with their refreshing approach and dare.

[C. Flower]

I was very disappointed with the result and even lost a bet. Otherwise Paddy power would have paid out €500. Anyway i got over that.

One poster said it right re govt use of divide and conquer tactics and the lack of solidarity as well.Next time we could learn how to stop divide and conquer tactics. It was difficult to fight on their own such as SF but they came out well and kudos to them. They will be the main opposition party if not perhaps in Govt.

ULA were ineffective & toothless and they are still useless really. I have argued for a new party as ULA doesn't give a real impact as they did last time in GE. Perhaps Ganley or some IND's such as Donnelly would take a lot of voters and goodwill as well.

Need a new party something along the lines of Syzria as they have captured Greek's people imaginations with their refreshing approach and dare.

Sorry about the bet.

[disability student]

Sorry about the bet.

Nah, that's all right as i got over this quick. I was chancing my arm re odds, which was good value. Rejection of that referendum would score much higher than me winning the bet.:D

[Ah Well]

If you tolerate this then your children will be next

The Irish people are tolerating it - look at today's result if you ever needed reassuring

And their children are most certainly next

Onwards and downwards to the United States of Germany

[C. Flower]

Nah, that's all right as i got over this quick. I was chancing my arm re odds, which was good value. Rejection of that referendum would score much higher than me winning the bet.:D

Indeed. It is a nuisance. We have let the rest of Europe down, people who are in the same boat as we are or worse. We have lost independence and rights.

But it has made things a lot clearer.

[Ah Well]

Indeed. It is a nuisance. We have let the rest of Europe down, people who are in the same boat as we are or worse. We have lost independence and rights.

But it has made things a lot clearer.

It has copperfastened, when it comes to the Irish that

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[MPB]

You are right of course........... but I did get a bit of a feeling from those very brave workers at Vita Cortex ........solidarity does exist but in very small doses........did anyone else feel like I did when they won their case how sticking together really works, it was proved time and time again in the 70's, our fathers can tell that story. The Government are waging a very successful campaign of divide and conquer, and most are falling for it, it makes me soooo mad. Solidarity is the way to go forward in this horrible situation we all find ourselves in, we ALL want a bettter quality of life for our families not just some.... and sticking together is the only way to overcome it. I am perhaps a bit idealistic.........

Take a deep breath. Count to 10. Relax.

You are right to get upset, but wrong to worry.

Be patient. They have not divided, nor will they conquer.

It only looks like they are winning. They are not, they will not and they cannot.

Your frustration is their desperation. Rather than wallow in your frustration, take solace in their desperation.

[PaddyJoe]

I voted no obviously and so did most of my colleagues , neighbours and friends, the two I know who didn't gave the following reasons 1. Afraid that they would have no pension and 2.Afraid they would have no social welfare payment.

I asked them did they understand exactly what they were voting Yes for? and they said not really, just felt afraid. I asked them then if they didn't understand what they were voting for why not vote No and wait and see, they saw the logic, but it was too late...........I am so bitterly disappointed in our nation and government and just felt we had a chance a real chance to show our disappointment in this inept leadership and we threw it away. I am by no means as articulate and as knowledgeable as most of the posters here but just felt like venting some steam.:mad:

+1 for a great heartfelt post. Disappointing result in one way but it underlined once again that forty percent of the Irish people are not happy with the policies that we've had and want something different. How many people in that sixty percent voted Yes out of fear of the unknown?
By the way, who said you had to be articulate and knowledgeable to post here?
Doesn't seem to be in the site rules as far as I can see:D

[Sidewinder]

Maybe the problem with the Irish electorate is that by always staying in Ireland they stay too Irish and don't learn to expect anything i.e. the right to sovereignty. All the smart people leave.

I'm starting to think the truth is far more ugly than that.

The Irish are, in the main, a degenerate race of servile toadying dishonest thieving pikeys. They'll grovel to Massa, tug the forelock, be all smiles and plamas in public while secretly planning how to screw over everyone around them for a quick buck or a pat on the head for being a Good Dog. They'll b1tch and moan but then vote Yes. They'll b1tch and moan about something that clearly is not being run properly, and egg on some mug to take a stand, then when the mug stands up and challenges the local ward boss they'll all be down the back of the room staring at the ceiling and inwardly smirking that the fool fell for it and gave them a chance to prove their loyalty to the bossman, in the hope of getting some advantage. The Paddy never talks straight, never calls a spade a spade. Every conversation in Ireland is a minefield of hidden metaphors, dodging and twisting, angling for information or advantage, looking for the opening for a swift backstab. They are utterly untrustworthy. They have been like this for centuries. The damage was done long ago. Irish culture these days is utterly toxic and quite simply doesn't deserve to continue.

It's not the smart people that leave Ireland. It's the honest people.

Frankly at this stage I quite despise the place and have no intention of ever returning if I can possibly help it.

[PaddyJoe]

I'm starting to think the truth is far more ugly than that.

The Irish are, in the main, a degenerate race of servile toadying dishonest thieving pikeys. They'll grovel to Massa, tug the forelock, be all smiles and plamas in public while secretly planning how to screw over everyone around them for a quick buck or a pat on the head for being a Good Dog. They'll b1tch and moan but then vote Yes. They'll b1tch and moan about something that clearly is not being run properly, and egg on some mug to take a stand, then when the mug stands up and challenges the local ward boss they'll all be down the back of the room staring at the ceiling and inwardly smirking that the fool fell for it and gave them a chance to prove their loyalty to the bossman, in the hope of getting some advantage. The Paddy never talks straight, never calls a spade a spade. Every conversation in Ireland is a minefield of hidden metaphors, dodging and twisting, angling for information or advantage, looking for the opening for a swift backstab. They are utterly untrustworthy. They have been like this for centuries. The damage was done long ago. Irish culture these days is utterly toxic and quite simply doesn't deserve to continue.

It's not the smart people that leave Ireland. It's the honest people.

Frankly at this stage I quite despise the place and have no intention of ever returning if I can possibly help it.
Class post as always.
But there's just one thing.
Of every ten paddies only six voted Yes. There were four that voted No.
Does this mean that 4 out of 10 people are not "a degenerate race of servile toadying dishonest thieving pikeys"

[disability student]

I'm starting to think the truth is far more ugly than that.

The Irish are, in the main, a degenerate race of servile toadying dishonest thieving pikeys. They'll grovel to Massa, tug the forelock, be all smiles and plamas in public while secretly planning how to screw over everyone around them for a quick buck or a pat on the head for being a Good Dog. They'll b1tch and moan but then vote Yes. They'll b1tch and moan about something that clearly is not being run properly, and egg on some mug to take a stand, then when the mug stands up and challenges the local ward boss they'll all be down the back of the room staring at the ceiling and inwardly smirking that the fool fell for it and gave them a chance to prove their loyalty to the bossman, in the hope of getting some advantage. The Paddy never talks straight, never calls a spade a spade. Every conversation in Ireland is a minefield of hidden metaphors, dodging and twisting, angling for information or advantage, looking for the opening for a swift backstab. They are utterly untrustworthy. They have been like this for centuries. The damage was done long ago. Irish culture these days is utterly toxic and quite simply doesn't deserve to continue.

It's not the smart people that leave Ireland. It's the honest people.

Frankly at this stage I quite despise the place and have no intention of ever returning if I can possibly help it.

Agree with what you said there. Depressing isn't .. the more i realise Ireland isn't honest country as they claimed to be. Once spoke my mind to a certain disability office as they didn't like it.

Lot of good people are leaving here. Noticed there is a difference between MP and TD as MP usually more honest with their failings such as corruption or expenses. MP would resign straight away .. contrast this to here where corruption and back slapping are the norm in Ireland such as the case of Olivia Mitchell, Callely, R Burke et al.

[Sidewinder]

Class post as always.
But there's just one thing.
Of every ten paddies only six voted Yes. There were four that voted No.
Does this mean that 4 out of 10 people are not "a degenerate race of servile toadying dishonest thieving pikeys"

I'd guess at least half the No vote were people thinking that voting no was a way to keep the gravy train going and/or threatening Europe to keep bailing us out without having to dismantle all the croneyist pork and patronage that makes up so much of current Govt spending.

After spending 38 years in Ireland I'd say maybe 15%-20% of the population aren't pikeys...and they tend to either leave or keep the head well down and just try to protect themselves as best they can from the swarm of sharks and chancers all around them. Like I've said before, Traveller culture isn't some sort of aberration, it's the true undiluted expression of what Irishness is really all about.

All the noble myths of the fighting rebel Irish are just that - myths. In a way I should really have copped on to this a long, long time ago - growing up in Derry in the 70s and 80s should have been a big huge flashing red sign as to what most of the rest of the Irish population were really like - gutless dishonest self-serving sleveens. Nothing worse than encountering a bunch of drunk eejits in a bar in Dublin or Galway, pissed and singing rebel songs, then turning round when they hear a Northern accent and shouting abuse to "go back to your own country you dirty black Nordie murdering b'stard". The hypocrisy and dishonesty is staggering. And everywhere.

[Fraxinus]

Very frustrating result. But are we allowing and stepping aside for those who have most to lose with regards to running this country?

I remember reading a bit on Steve Biko before and he said something along the lines of this: that even if the intentions of some white people were good for making life better for the blacks in SA, they could never be fully trusted in bringing about an end to apartheid because by being white the system gave them an advantage in life and they had a lot to lose by totally dismanteling the system.

I think something similar is going on here and possibly on an age basis but not entirely. The Yes voters were by and large people who had a lot to lose...farmers, those with pensions and savings, senior civil servants (and this absolutely includes politicians!). Most of those people are over the age of 50 and looking at the polls in the run up to the election there was definitely an age divide on yes and no.
It didn't help either having the election on a Thursday which made it difficult for a lot of young workers and students to get back home from Galway, Dublin etc, because most are registered in their home constituency. Some just didin't give a **** and a lot a no longer in the country anymore.

It's this section of the population that need to start engaging if things are ever to change.

[C. Flower]

Yanis Varoufakis - Ireland passed up on the opportunity of breaking the circuit in voting against the ludicrous Fiscal Compact.

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2012/06/03/why-europe-should-fear-fina-gail-like-reasonableness-much-much-more-than-it-fears-syriza/

[Newsy]

I'm starting to think the truth is far more ugly than that.

The Irish are, in the main, a degenerate race of servile toadying dishonest thieving pikeys. They'll grovel to Massa, tug the forelock, be all smiles and plamas in public while secretly planning how to screw over everyone around them for a quick buck or a pat on the head for being a Good Dog. They'll b1tch and moan but then vote Yes. They'll b1tch and moan about something that clearly is not being run properly, and egg on some mug to take a stand, then when the mug stands up and challenges the local ward boss they'll all be down the back of the room staring at the ceiling and inwardly smirking that the fool fell for it and gave them a chance to prove their loyalty to the bossman, in the hope of getting some advantage. The Paddy never talks straight, never calls a spade a spade. Every conversation in Ireland is a minefield of hidden metaphors, dodging and twisting, angling for information or advantage, looking for the opening for a swift backstab. They are utterly untrustworthy. They have been like this for centuries. The damage was done long ago. Irish culture these days is utterly toxic and quite simply doesn't deserve to continue.

It's not the smart people that leave Ireland. It's the honest people.

Frankly at this stage I quite despise the place and have no intention of ever returning if I can possibly help it.

And this post helps how, exactly??

Please, don't generalise. I'm Irish, I'm NOT leaving and I'm honest. Plenty of others like me.

[Saoirse go Deo]

I was disappointed, it's annoying spending ages canvassing about something and lose, feels like you wasted your time.

What utter drivel from Sidewinder, rubbish self loathing nonsense. Sounds like the racist propaganda the English spread around about the Irish years ago.

[Dr. FIVE]

IT'S ***** BEING SCOTTISH - YouTube

[Newsy]

I voted no obviously and so did most of my colleagues , neighbours and friends, the two I know who didn't gave the following reasons 1. Afraid that they would have no pension and 2.Afraid they would have no social welfare payment.

I asked them did they understand exactly what they were voting Yes for? and they said not really, just felt afraid. I asked them then if they didn't understand what they were voting for why not vote No and wait and see, they saw the logic, but it was too late...........I am so bitterly disappointed in our nation and government and just felt we had a chance a real chance to show our disappointment in this inept leadership and we threw it away. I am by no means as articulate and as knowledgeable as most of the posters here but just felt like venting some steam.:mad:

I was also bitterly disappointed in the result. I was saddened for the future of my country, I was disheartened because 'hope' seemed further away than ever and for a time I was angry with those who voted yes.

Reading through some of the posts here doesn't lessen my sadness, I have to say. The silent majority are litterly fighting for their lives AND THAT IS COURAGE in the face of savage pressure, that is not to be underestimated. Financially poor individuals get up every morning and face another day, which takes guts that is beyond words. They are desperately trying to keep their heads above water, in any way they can. THAT IS COURAGE. I know so many people with courage that face each day, not knowing what it will bring, financially wise.

I am sick to death of us calling ourselves cowards....In the face of fear, courage is seen in digging deep and keeping going.

I don't like the route that was taken on Thursday and I don't like the route that our gov is taking, but neither do I like it when we find ways of cutting ourselves at the knees. We generalise about how weak or cowardly we are. Generalisations never work. Because behind generalisations, there are people with their own story, their own heart ache, their own day to day struggles, there are people just like you and me.

[Holly]

...
The Irish are, in the main, a degenerate race of servile toadying dishonest thieving pikeys. ...

Despite the belief to the contrary of Cuban-American, Éamon de Valera, the Irish are not a race.

[Sam Lord]

I was also bitterly disappointed in the result. I was saddened for the future of my country, I was disheartened because 'hope' seemed further away than ever and for a time I was angry with those who voted yes.

Reading through some of the posts here doesn't lessen my sadness, I have to say. The silent majority are litterly fighting for their lives AND THAT IS COURAGE in the face of savage pressure, that is not to be underestimated. Financially poor individuals get up every morning and face another day, which takes guts that is beyond words. They are desperately trying to keep their heads above water, in any way they can. THAT IS COURAGE. I know so many people with courage that face each day, not knowing what it will bring, financially wise.

I am sick to death of us calling ourselves cowards....In the face of fear, courage is seen in digging deep and keeping going.

I don't like the route that was taken on Thursday and I don't like the route that our gov is taking, but neither do I like it when we find ways of cutting ourselves at the knees. We generalise about how weak or cowardly we are. Generalisations never work. Because behind generalisations, there are people with their own story, their own heart ache, their own day to day struggles, there are people just like you and me.

Great post.

[fluffybiscuits]

I'm starting to think the truth is far more ugly than that.

The Irish are, in the main, a degenerate race of servile toadying dishonest thieving pikeys. They'll grovel to Massa, tug the forelock, be all smiles and plamas in public while secretly planning how to screw over everyone around them for a quick buck or a pat on the head for being a Good Dog. They'll b1tch and moan but then vote Yes. They'll b1tch and moan about something that clearly is not being run properly, and egg on some mug to take a stand, then when the mug stands up and challenges the local ward boss they'll all be down the back of the room staring at the ceiling and inwardly smirking that the fool fell for it and gave them a chance to prove their loyalty to the bossman, in the hope of getting some advantage. The Paddy never talks straight, never calls a spade a spade. Every conversation in Ireland is a minefield of hidden metaphors, dodging and twisting, angling for information or advantage, looking for the opening for a swift backstab. They are utterly untrustworthy. They have been like this for centuries. The damage was done long ago. Irish culture these days is utterly toxic and quite simply doesn't deserve to continue.

It's not the smart people that leave Ireland. It's the honest people.

Frankly at this stage I quite despise the place and have no intention of ever returning if I can possibly help it.
Captured it perfectly to be honest and I can feel your anger there Sidey there boiling up inside. For me its what Ah Well said, plus ca change and everything else with it. From trying to be innovative in my job to not towing the line with the politics in the office a lot of things frustrate me in this country. Back stabbing bastards to the whole nepotism with a drop of "ah sure throw him a couple of quid and its sorted". Wouldnt it be nice if the members of this board could just go in to government and completey tear up the status quo and I mean really tear it up and **** up the whole system and replace it with something that works. We are the proleteriat , we are the working class, we are the people and we are the ones who should decide what we do with our lives and empower ourselves and not some bureaucrat who says we should pay for other peoples mistakes.

Jinnyjoe...nice post and it articulates my sentiments and a lot of peoples perfectly....

[toxic avenger]

Not disappointed, merely resigned. I didn't bother getting involved this time - my wedding and honeymoon were reason enough, my having emigrated too, but I knew it was pointless. Lisbon 2 was the tipping point - when I realised that it was utterly futile, that Ireland was now too far down the road to be retrievable. The debate on Fiscal Union should have been had when a small minority of us tried to have it - 20 years ago when everyone was mindlessly enthusiastic for monetary union. I knew people wouldn't dare step out of line - if they swiftly capitulated at Lisbon once they were told the ropes would be cut if they didn't then of course there would be a yes vote this time. You'll see that I didn't take part in any of the debates on this Treaty here or elsewhere. The British have pulled back at the cliff's edge, they still have some degree of control over their own affairs. Ireland, unfortunately, is past the tipping point.

I was looked on like some class of alien life form when I used to argue against the Euro when I came to Ireland in the 90s - a horrible combination of complete incomprehension of the argument I was making (combined with a condescending/patronizing air - 'ah well you're from Britain, you get your views from the tabloid press there' - as if they weren't utterly brainwashed by the Irish media's utter one-sidedness themselves). I was told more times than I remember that it was worthwhile because it'd mean no changing money at the airport.

Ireland is lost to the Euro-project, it's time to face it. Banking union will follow swiftly, followed by full fiscal union, followed by more political institutions. The debate is over.

[riposte]

Not disappointed, merely resigned. I didn't bother getting involved this time - my wedding and honeymoon were reason enough, my having emigrated too, but I knew it was pointless. Lisbon 2 was the tipping point - when I realised that it was utterly futile, that Ireland was now too far down the road to be retrievable. The debate on Fiscal Union should have been had when a small minority of us tried to have it - 20 years ago when everyone was mindlessly enthusiastic for monetary union. I knew people wouldn't dare step out of line - if they swiftly capitulated at Lisbon once they were told the ropes would be cut if they didn't then of course there would be a yes vote this time. You'll see that I didn't take part in any of the debates on this Treaty here or elsewhere. The British have pulled back at the cliff's edge, they still have some degree of control over their own affairs. Ireland, unfortunately, is past the tipping point.

I was looked on like some class of alien life form when I used to argue against the Euro when I came to Ireland in the 90s - a horrible combination of complete incomprehension of the argument I was making (combined with a condescending/patronizing air - 'ah well you're from Britain, you get your views from the tabloid press there' - as if they weren't utterly brainwashed by the Irish media's utter one-sidedness themselves). I was told more times than I remember that it was worthwhile because it'd mean no changing money at the airport.

Ireland is lost to the Euro-project, it's time to face it. Banking union will follow swiftly, followed by full fiscal union, followed by more political institutions. The debate is over.


On the contrary ... the debate is only starting...... the EU is out of control ...... and people all over Europe are ready for drastic changes ..... and not the ones the politicians have in mind.

[toxic avenger]

On the contrary ... the debate is only starting...... the EU is out of control ...... and people all over Europe are ready for drastic changes ..... and not the ones the politicians have in mind.

Perhaps in some parts of Europe, among some sections of the most affected groups of people, but not in Ireland. I'm afraid the bed has been laid. If the people of Ireland are up for drastic changes then they have a remarkable capacity for covering it up - the recent referendum result was utterly predictable (and predicted by me months ago - thus my refusal to even bother taking part) - the fact is that the Irish people are a markedly conservative people with a huge capacity to accept that what they are told is the best thing for them is in fact the best thing for them.

I think that the Euro and the political integration project will survive this particular crisis (again, something I've been saying for two years), if only because it's too soon for the European elites to admit failure - trillions will be spent propping it up this time. But the next great economic crisis, for a next there will be, will split it up. Ireland, and the very conservative Irish people, will have nothing to do with that. The choice then will be between trying to stay in a core currency group or use a sterling-linked punt.

To me, Lisbon convinced me - the debate in Ireland is lost, people are prepared to continue following their leaders down the road to political union increment by increment. I'm not wasting any more of my life on it.

[Ah Well]

Perhaps in some parts of Europe, among some sections of the most affected groups of people, but not in Ireland. I'm afraid the bed has been laid. If the people of Ireland are up for drastic changes then they have a remarkable capacity for covering it up - the recent referendum result was utterly predictable (and predicted by me months ago - thus my refusal to even bother taking part) - the fact is that the Irish people are a markedly conservative people with a huge capacity to accept that what they are told is the best thing for them is in fact the best thing for them.

I think that the Euro and the political integration project will survive this particular crisis (again, something I've been saying for two years), if only because it's too soon for the European elites to admit failure - trillions will be spent propping it up this time. But the next great economic crisis, for a next there will be, will split it up. Ireland, and the very conservative Irish people, will have nothing to do with that. The choice then will be between trying to stay in a core currency group or use a sterling-linked punt.

To me, Lisbon convinced me - the debate in Ireland is lost, people are prepared to continue following their leaders down the road to political union increment by increment. I'm not wasting any more of my life on it.

I can relate wholeheartedly to a lot of what you have posted above TA

It was completely predictable that the recent Referendum would pass

As will the next one

And the one after that too

Lisbon 2 was the final straw for me to a very large extent

The Irish electorate as a majority appear to be prepared to follow what they are told or hear as opposed to rationalise things out and take a stance as should be. There are no signs of that having or about to change in any considerable sense. And I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath either.

Foreign rule seems to have stuck as is ingrained - 800 years later. Old habits do die hard.

The Proclaimers - What do you do - YouTube

[Sidewinder]

I'm not wasting any more of my life on it.

I've largely reached the same point. I'm not angry, nor am I "self-loathing" - quite the contrary, I'm pretty awesome actually :D - but Ireland and most Irish people? Waste of time even thinking about them, and my only emotion when I think of the Irish now is a sort of weary contempt. Looking back on it I never fitted in to Ireland, I never bought into the BS, every day was a constant endless battle against a corrupt dishonest ultraconservative society and general culture that I now realise I always found offensive, sneaky, aggressively illogical and downright ignorant.

I'm just stuck in a bit of a holding pattern while my permanent residency application winds its torturous way through the halls of officialdom - until I have that precious bit of paper in my hand I can't entirely relax or fully cut the umbilical cord. But once I get it....

[C. Flower]

I've largely reached the same point. I'm not angry, nor am I "self-loathing" - quite the contrary, I'm pretty awesome actually :D - but Ireland and most Irish people? Waste of time even thinking about them, and my only emotion when I think of the Irish now is a sort of weary contempt. Looking back on it I never fitted in to Ireland, I never bought into the BS, every day was a constant endless battle against a corrupt dishonest ultraconservative society and general culture that I now realise I always found offensive, sneaky, aggressively illogical and downright ignorant.

I'm just stuck in a bit of a holding pattern while my permanent residency application winds its torturous way through the halls of officialdom - until I have that precious bit of paper in my hand I can't entirely relax or fully cut the umbilical cord. But once I get it....

I think what you are describing is an agricultural/small farmer/cattle-dealing culture. The Act of Union and etc. (itself involving a highly corrupted Lisbon 2 style sell out) had a stultifying effect on Ireland's economic development, and prevented its modernisation, keeping it as a large larder for Britain with handy strategic ports attached. The agricultural economy, and the destruction and corruption of the leadership classes of the day, shaped the culture that you are talking about. In spite of that culture, there have been times in which Irish people have broken through the rubbish, and asserted the most progressive and advanced demands - the Irish Soviets of the early 20 C, and 1916, in particular. The prolonged protest in the west against the theft of gas and oil resources too.

But it the old culture is very much under pressure. Ireland now only has a few thousand farmers, and the number is reducing rapidly. The FF strategy of moving the next generation into construction and the public services, where they thought they could keep them indefinitely as a reliable voter pool, has been completely wrecked and has wrecked the country in the process.

No country is at the forefront of political action all the time. Tunisia, Egypt, France, Greece have taken their turns. The Irish No votes and the fact that we are still entitled to votes on EU convergence is still looked on by the rest of Europe as an indication that the Irish cannot be "depended on" to submit.

Some people were shocked and frightened into voting for the Referendum. I think they also were unconvinced by the viability of the alternatives. There is also still a sizeable portion of the population in Ireland who are very well off, still receiving boomtime salaries or on big pensions. People voted (they hoped) to keep their pensions and salaries. Too much to lose, plain and simple.
The Greek vote tomorrow may go the same way - it will depend who has what to lose as people will always vote (it is an individual act) in self-interest.

What is certain, is that the European economy is spectacularly bust, and nowhere more so than in Ireland. Things will not continue as in the past and the conflict will be between the diminishing number of haves, and the growing number of have nots. It is a situation full of extreme danger of a future of impoverishment and undemocratic police states, but also the opportunity of going the opposite way, with a massive democratisation and reorganisation, to allow people to use their abilities and productive power, properly.

[Shaadi]

Perhaps in some parts of Europe, among some sections of the most affected groups of people, but not in Ireland. I'm afraid the bed has been laid. If the people of Ireland are up for drastic changes then they have a remarkable capacity for covering it up - the recent referendum result was utterly predictable (and predicted by me months ago - thus my refusal to even bother taking part) - the fact is that the Irish people are a markedly conservative people with a huge capacity to accept that what they are told is the best thing for them is in fact the best thing for them.

I think that the Euro and the political integration project will survive this particular crisis (again, something I've been saying for two years), if only because it's too soon for the European elites to admit failure - trillions will be spent propping it up this time. But the next great economic crisis, for a next there will be, will split it up. Ireland, and the very conservative Irish people, will have nothing to do with that. The choice then will be between trying to stay in a core currency group or use a sterling-linked punt.

To me, Lisbon convinced me - the debate in Ireland is lost, people are prepared to continue following their leaders down the road to political union increment by increment. I'm not wasting any more of my life on it.


I've largely reached the same point. I'm not angry, nor am I "self-loathing" - quite the contrary, I'm pretty awesome actually :D - but Ireland and most Irish people? Waste of time even thinking about them, and my only emotion when I think of the Irish now is a sort of weary contempt. Looking back on it I never fitted in to Ireland, I never bought into the BS, every day was a constant endless battle against a corrupt dishonest ultraconservative society and general culture that I now realise I always found offensive, sneaky, aggressively illogical and downright ignorant.

The highlighted bits are the facts. The majority of Irish people are lacking in any political or ethical philosophy. They have no moral compass when they go to the polls.

Their guiding rules are.

1. What's in it for me in the short term.

2. Change is to be avoided unless there's a perceived financial benefit in accepting it, so if we're angry about something we'll change the faces not the system.

I could go on, but those two rules mixed in with a bit of pseudo-civil war rivalry are about as deep as the Irish electorate are.

It's a miracle that we have managed to get as far we have economically. Given our current mess, it's a sort of twisted triumph and defeat for Paddyism at the same tiime.

The ultimate expression of Paddyism will be provincial status in a USE. A perfect solution, Home Rule was all most of the Irish ever really wanted.

[Richardbouvet]

Home rule or fiscal union would not reflect in any way on us as a people. We were just as cowardly and toadying during the long rule of John Charles McQuaid, in which we were outside the EU, and we would still be the same people if we became the European Cuba (which would be a better option then where we are now!)

I would say that our mass self-abasement reached its nadir in Lisbon 2. Even a narrow Yes win in Lisbon 2 would have saved some dignity, but we all trooped into the polling stations like drugged sheep.

In the fiscal treaty, with a bailout gun to our heads, we at least still had 2 out of every 5 voters prepared to say no.

[C. Flower]

The highlighted bits are the facts. The majority of Irish people are lacking in any political or ethical philosophy. They have no moral compass when they go to the polls.

Their guiding rules are.

1. What's in it for me in the short term.

2. Change is to be avoided unless there's a perceived financial benefit in accepting it, so if we're angry about something we'll change the faces not the system.

I could go on, but those two rules mixed in with a bit of pseudo-civil war rivalry are about as deep as the Irish electorate are.

It's a miracle that we have managed to get as far we have economically. Given our current mess, it's a sort of twisted triumph and defeat for Paddyism at the same tiime.

The ultimate expression of Paddyism will be provincial status in a USE. A perfect solution, Home Rule was all most of the Irish ever really wanted.

I don't think that we should beat ourselves up over this. People vote in self-interest - not just in Ireland, everywhere. That is what votes, pretty well are for. People weigh up the options and make their choice. By and large, they vote along the lines of class interest, as that is the way that parties are most successful. In Ireland for a while that was overlaid with national issues, because were were a colony of a neighbouring imperial power.

That situation is now shifting.

[Hapax]

I would say that our mass self-abasement reached its nadir in Lisbon 2. Even a narrow Yes win in Lisbon 2 would have saved some dignity, but we all trooped into the polling stations like drugged sheep.

Whereas I would see the self-abasement climaxing in inaccurate generalizations like this. No, we did not all behave like drugged sheep. Some still voted 'no' and I don't see any progressive purpose served by eliding that reality.



I don't think that we should beat ourselves up over this. People vote in self-interest - not just in Ireland, everywhere. That is what votes, pretty well are for. People weigh up the options and make their choice. By and large, they vote along the lines of class interest, as that is the way that parties are most successful. In Ireland for a while that was overlaid with national issues, because were were a colony of a neighbouring imperial power.

That situation is now shifting.

Absolutely agree. The history of Irish voting practices is not down to some idealist stereotype of national identity of the "Paddy is stupid" variety. That's no more useful than to describe the last year's UK riots as "mindless violence".

[Shaadi]

Whereas I would see the self-abasement climaxing in inaccurate generalizations like this. No, we did not all behave like drugged sheep. Some still voted 'no' and I don't see any progressive purpose served by eliding that reality.It's not about self-abasement, or about people behaving like sheeple. The electorate deliberately chose to endorse the bailout process that the ESM represents. They didn't want to vote for the FST, they made a calculated decision to exchange sovereignty for the promise of access to a second "bailout".

The tolerance of corruption in Irish politics/business/reigious institutions is about a majority of people choosing deliberately to accept it. No ifs, buts or maybes about it, the majority of the Irish electorate condoned the criminality of the Irish establishment.



Absolutely agree. The history of Irish voting practices is not down to some idealist stereotype of national identity of the "Paddy is stupid" variety. That's no more useful than to describe the last year's UK riots as "mindless violence".It's not down to stupidity, it's down to a lack of ethics. The cute hoors are not stupid, they're sly and self-serving. The middle classes of Dublin held their noses and voted in increased numbers for the Ahern led Govt in 2007, for no other reason than that they perceived it was financially beneficial to them.

That some Irish people vote ethically does not negate the fact that the majority of them vote primarily on venal grounds. That doesn't make us unique, although the absence of a proper Left/Right political divide has left us with an inability to easily fight the Establishment consensus/status quo.