Political Parties - Who Got the Most out of the Referendum Campaign ?

[C. Flower]

Leaving aside the result, who were the winners and losers of the campaign?

Vincent Browne wrote this on the Politico.ie site -


The Left – United Left Alliance and its allies – ran a pathetic campaign, failing to deal with the issue of future finding for the State, exaggerating the austerity issues and ignoring the elephant of this being the only opportunity to express opposition to the European elite that has inflicted misery on us through the bank guarantee and its neoliberal agenda, and opposition to the government parties that have reneged on the promises that got them elected.


On the No side the most persuasive were Declan Ganley and Libertas. The expressed themselves clearly and forthrightly, in contrast to the endless waffle of the Left.


Sinn Féin also did well, notably Pearse Doherty, Nora Owen and Padraig McLaughlin.


On the Yes side Fianna Fail and Micheál Martin were best. Enda Kenny was probably wise to stay out of the fray – but what does that say about his ability to argue his government’s case at EU summits, when he is not confident to argue his government’s case at home?
The Referendum Commission was unimpressive and its advise on whether we had a veto was questionable.


I agree that much of the Left campaign was vague. A clear alternative was not put forward, nor was the Thatcherite "Shock and Awe" character of the Treaty conveyed.

I was not so impressed by Ganley, who doesn't get the free ride he used to - people remember that he has lost an election.

Mary Lou performed the best for SF. Clare Daly for the Left.

FF were forgettable. Kenny disastrous and Labour presented endless hostages to fortune.

SF the clear winners, in terms of how they are positioned to benefit from the campaign.

[unspecific]

Vincent Browne rejecting out of hand the idea of taxing wealth as a solution does by no means make the lefts campaign "pathetic." For all his handwringing about inequality, to say that just shows up his own jaded, cynical bourgeois-core. I will admit it was incoherent, but when the battle was fought under the Yes narrative through the media, you were always going to be backtracking and on the defensive. It also wasn't targeted at middle-class television personalities.

In face-to-face debates, however I think 'No' won all of them. On the ground at public meetings, the Yes side ran away from debates. I haven't heard of much Yes canvassing. They ran it exclusively through newspaper headlines which were always on-message. There needs to be a little realism about the balance of forces.

For example, FG had a full 2 page spread in the indo today naming all the famous people voting 'Yes' and another full page in the Irish Times. At the same time the 'No' could only afford a few words in The Star tucked in the corner of page 3.

[PaddyJoe]

I thought Paul Murphy had a good campaign. He was a relative unknown at the start of the year but has upped his profile considerably because of some decent media performances.
As far as I know he was the first person to highlight in the main stream media how the government had covertly signed up to the ESM blackmail clause.
Media wise, I'd think himself and Clare Daly were the outstanding campaigners on the left.

[jmcc]

Sinn Fein without a doubt. De facto leaders of the opposition now.
Misery Martin could have earned himself a reprieve as he did what Enda Kenny chicked out of doing. However if it is a 'No' vote, then Martin is history as it will give the O'Cuiv faction the opportunity to remove him.

The possibility of a future SF/FG government has increased slightly but it would only happen after Kenny and co are removed. If it is a 'No' vote then Chicken Enda is fried.

Regards...jmcc

[C. Flower]

Vincent Browne rejecting out of hand the idea of taxing wealth as a solution does by no means make the lefts campaign "pathetic." For all his handwringing about inequality, to say that just shows up his own jaded, cynical bourgeois-core. I will admit it was incoherent, but when the battle was fought under the Yes narrative through the media, you were always going to be backtracking and on the defensive. It also wasn't targeted at middle-class television personalities.

In face-to-face debates, however I think 'No' won all of them. On the ground at public meetings, the Yes side ran away from debates. I haven't heard of much Yes canvassing. They ran it exclusively through newspaper headlines which were always on-message. There needs to be a little realism about the balance of forces.

For example, FG had a full 2 page spread in the indo today naming all the famous people voting 'Yes' and another full page in the Irish Times. At the same time the 'No' could only afford a few words in The Star tucked in the corner of page 3.

Yes, I agree with you about Browne. He is fundamentally closer to FF than anyone else.

The No campaign was very slow to surface, but in the last week made most of the running.

Government relied heavily on, as you say, heaving spending on postering and "stability.ie"

SF positioned themselves strongly as the lead No organisation, and FG played into their hands in this, with a view to blocking anti SF voters from the No side.

The Left, I think, needs to take opportunities like this to put forward a practical programme of budgeted measures.

[Ah Well]

I thought Paul Murphy had a good campaign

The guy is cohesive

Ally that to who is actually running the country

Rest my case

:(

[Sam Lord]

Sinn Fein without a doubt. De facto leaders of the opposition now.


Yes. Absolutely.

The trots would have done better if they had campaigned coherently and uniformly as the ULA but they were all doing their own thing as usual. The SP appeared to be more interested in promoting Paul Murphy than in winning the referendum. They are probably delighted with the exposure they got compared to the poor old SWP (and the EU money would have helped there) but thats not really what it was all about.

[C. Flower]

I thought Paul Murphy had a good campaign. He was a relative unknown at the start of the year but has upped his profile considerably because of some decent media performances.
As far as I know he was the first person to highlight in the main stream media how the government had covertly signed up to the ESM blackmail clause.
Media wise, I'd think himself and Clare Daly were the outstanding campaigners on the left.

Yes: both of them are well able to win elections and both come over as sharp on TV.

Murphy made this valid point.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=11988

Most of the leafletting I saw going on was by non Dail parties.

[musashi]

The ULA revealed themselves to be a shower populist anti-establishment twonks, hell bent on maximizing their respective political ambitions. Clueless parrots all.

I hate having to say this but Sinn Féin have come out of this rather well, especially Doherty.

We're so F***ed.

[Seán Ryan]

I think the elephant in the room is the low turnout.

Most folks I spoke to about the matter, "yes" and "no" voters, made their minds up without any need to be 'educated' by their alleged betters, those of the political persuasion.

The left campaigns, SF included, were a joke, as big a joke as the campaigns run by the "yes" side. "Don't write austerity into law." Give me a bucket...

It is becoming clear to more people than ever that the political class do not represent them. They only look out for themselves and their owners.

We'll see all sorts of excuses being rolled out in the next week or so, to explain voter "apathy," "confusion," "caution" and "anger." This analysis will be as representative as the analysis that produced such vacuous campaigns in the first instance.

For the first time in history the masses in Ireland are being forced to consider thinking for themselves. The political classes should be very afraid.

[Holly]

The ULA, Socialist Party, People Before Profit, or whatever they are calling themselves are too disorganized to be seen as a party and they will never amount to anything but a bunch of personalities.

Sinn Féin, therefore, constitute the biggest threat to the Three Stooges and regardless of the result, their consistent performance in the Dáil as well as their leadership of the NO campaign make them the only alternative to conservative politics in Ireland today.

[jmcc]

The fallout of this vote could see SF as the biggest party in the South within two years.

The Stickies have destroyed yet another party and if Labour does not remove Gilmore, Rabbite and co, it is finished.

FG is going to lose floating voters to FF because Enda Kenny was too chicken to debate.

SF and FF would be the beneficiaries of an imploded Labour Party.

And that doesn't even depend on a 'No' result.

Regards...jmcc

[CMK]

It's threads like this that remind me why I don't bother engaging with Political World.

The endless amounts of twaddle here about the Left, from supposed supporters of Left politics, never ceases to amaze.

Endorsing Vincent Browne's comments about the ULA are the final straw, for me. Face it folks, there is no other 'Left' out there, somewhere over the rainbow, that will emerge to supersede the ULA. It's a fantasy to think there will be. Either you engage with the ULA or you're herded into Sinn Fein's corner. And, as any political sentient human being should be able to discover for themselves, Sinn Fein, for all their current rhetoric, are no Left wing force. They're a centrist, 'don't rock the boat' party, and when faced with a choice, which they will be in a future government, between dumping on their core voters and appeasing their chums in the US Chamber of Commerce, they won't hesitate to mollify the latter.

It's pathetic that this site gives such credence to complete charlatan like Browne. People here obviously believe his Irish Times columns on inequality are sincere. Well, more fool them. Browne needs the rich, he loves the rich and he loves the Right. Look at who he has stand in for him on his TV3 programme? A roll-call of right wing hacks. Browne has carved out a niche for himself as a curmudgeon by constantly harping on about inequality. But he has no sincere committment to changing the structures of Irish society which depend on the inequality; he's a product and loyal servant of them. It's solely an act, a juvenile attempt to get up the noses of his much loved right-wing peers and benefactors, but not indicative of a genuine committment. His contempible 'I'm only asking the Left the hard questions about where the money will come from because they're supposed to be the defenders of the poor' line clearly demonstrates that he is a enemy of the Left and only has left wing politicians on his show to ridicule them. Brown is as hostile to the ULA as most commenters here who have more in common, despite their left wing sentiments, with the media establishment.

So, I'm not checking this place out any more. The best of luck with your PW fantasies of a Irish Left Wing Prester John political force who will rise up and tick all of the boxes that PW regulars seem to think indicate a 'real', 'serious' Left.

It's the ULA or bust for the Irish Left and most here on PW would appear to prefer bust. The 'left-wing' anti-ULA PW keyboard warriors will enjoy their day today and can attribute the 'No' vote to the ULA's failings. Enjoy it while you can.

[Binn Beal]

Who was that? Why is he/she so angry at a website?

[Dr. FIVE]

CMK,

You're not trying to suggest there is no alternative are you?

[C. Flower]

CMK,

You're not trying to suggest there is no alternative are you?

The ULA is it, it seems.

In which case, it had better get on and form a political party.

[C. Flower]

It's threads like this that remind me why I don't bother engaging with Political World.

The endless amounts of twaddle here about the Left, from supposed supporters of Left politics, never ceases to amaze.

Endorsing Vincent Browne's comments about the ULA are the final straw, for me. Face it folks, there is no other 'Left' out there, somewhere over the rainbow, that will emerge to supersede the ULA. It's a fantasy to think there will be. Either you engage with the ULA or you're herded into Sinn Fein's corner. And, as any political sentient human being should be able to discover for themselves, Sinn Fein, for all their current rhetoric, are no Left wing force. They're a centrist, 'don't rock the boat' party, and when faced with a choice, which they will be in a future government, between dumping on their core voters and appeasing their chums in the US Chamber of Commerce, they won't hesitate to mollify the latter.

It's pathetic that this site gives such credence to complete charlatan like Browne. People here obviously believe his Irish Times columns on inequality are sincere. Well, more fool them. Browne needs the rich, he loves the rich and he loves the Right. Look at who he has stand in for him on his TV3 programme? A roll-call of right wing hacks. Browne has carved out a niche for himself as a curmudgeon by constantly harping on about inequality. But he has no sincere committment to changing the structures of Irish society which depend on the inequality; he's a product and loyal servant of them. It's solely an act, a juvenile attempt to get up the noses of his much loved right-wing peers and benefactors, but not indicative of a genuine committment. His contempible 'I'm only asking the Left the hard questions about where the money will come from because they're supposed to be the defenders of the poor' line clearly demonstrates that he is a enemy of the Left and only has left wing politicians on his show to ridicule them. Brown is as hostile to the ULA as most commenters here who have more in common, despite their left wing sentiments, with the media establishment.

So, I'm not checking this shithole out any more. The best of luck with your PW fantasies of a Irish Left Wing Prester John political force who will rise up and tick all of the boxes that PW regulars seem to think indicate a 'real', 'serious' Left.

It's the ULA or bust for the Irish Left and most here on PW would appear to prefer bust. The 'left-wing' anti-ULA PW keyboard warriors will enjoy their day today and can attribute the 'No' vote to the ULA's failings. Enjoy it while you can.

Not used to an open discussion of left politics?

The idea that the future of politics in Ireland is "take it or leave it" the SP, is erroneous. The S.P., if it is to develop, in any case must surely be prepared to engage in debate and defend its positions?

This site has accommodated discussion on the ULA from people for and against it, including a good number who are part of it.

You really need to toughen up a bit.

[CMK]

The ULA is it, it seems.

In which case, it had better get on and form a political party.

If it ain't the ULA, who is it? Eh? You seem to believe that the Left can't answer the 'hard questions' about 'where the money is going to come from'. Here's a hard question for you: where is this other non-ULA political force in this state?

And I mentioned political forces, not political parties. Different concepts altogether.

[CMK]

Not used to an open discussion of left politics?

The idea that the future of politics in Ireland is "take it or leave it" the SP, is erroneous. The S.P., if it is to develop, in any case must surely be prepared to engage in debate and defend its positions?

This site has accommodated discussion on the ULA from people for and against it, including a good number who are part of it.

You really need to toughen up a bit.


Well used to open discussion of Left politics. And who mentioned the SP?

Open discussion of Left politics is not what takes place here on PW. The few who seem to actually discuss anything, 'Bolshevik' for instance, make good points, even though I disagree with his political stance. But the vast majority of commenters here on the ULA, or any Left group for that matter, engage is a level of purile sneering that reads like the Sunday Independent. Yeah, I followed all of the ULA debates here and, with the exception of a couple of contributors, again 'Bolshevik' comes to mind, far too many made clear their hostility to the ULA.

The sneaking regard here for SF is fair enough, but indicative of a level of gullibility and willed ignorance when, for all Pearse Doherty's et all seeming coherence and media nous, they will implement the Trioka's directives, when the time comes, like they currently implement the Crown's laws.

[Dr. FIVE]

That first post is identical to the stuff we're increasingly seeing from members of the Labour party. Worth thinking about that.
If you want uncritical support join Fianna Fáil.

The biggest criticism - and it's not confined to the ULA - is the continued approach of playing by the opponents rules. The government managed to completely control the debate and the no side were either unable or unwilling to move it away from that to a space they could have won. Stutter, stutter when asked about where the money was going to come from, still. At no stage did anyone ask what conditions is the next bailout is going to come with for example. No hope for people who cannot take on Hayes or Creighton.

I agree entirely about SF fwiw

Back on topic,

Despite the likely yes I don't think the government's hand has been strengthened as much as I thought it would have been. They have lost a lot of support already and the pressure is on now to get results the unhappy yes voters expect. The opposition now have the stick of the onus being on the government and crucially FF to deliver all they said a yes vote would bring.

[Shaadi]

It's threads like this that remind me why I don't bother engaging with Political World.

The endless amounts of twaddle here about the Left, from supposed supporters of Left politics, never ceases to amaze.

Endorsing Vincent Browne's comments about the ULA are the final straw, for me. Face it folks, there is no other 'Left' out there, somewhere over the rainbow, that will emerge to supersede the ULA. It's a fantasy to think there will be. Either you engage with the ULA or you're herded into Sinn Fein's corner. And, as any political sentient human being should be able to discover for themselves, Sinn Fein, for all their current rhetoric, are no Left wing force. They're a centrist, 'don't rock the boat' party, and when faced with a choice, which they will be in a future government, between dumping on their core voters and appeasing their chums in the US Chamber of Commerce, they won't hesitate to mollify the latter.

It's pathetic that this site gives such credence to complete charlatan like Browne. People here obviously believe his Irish Times columns on inequality are sincere. Well, more fool them. Browne needs the rich, he loves the rich and he loves the Right. Look at who he has stand in for him on his TV3 programme? A roll-call of right wing hacks. Browne has carved out a niche for himself as a curmudgeon by constantly harping on about inequality. But he has no sincere committment to changing the structures of Irish society which depend on the inequality; he's a product and loyal servant of them. It's solely an act, a juvenile attempt to get up the noses of his much loved right-wing peers and benefactors, but not indicative of a genuine committment. His contempible 'I'm only asking the Left the hard questions about where the money will come from because they're supposed to be the defenders of the poor' line clearly demonstrates that he is a enemy of the Left and only has left wing politicians on his show to ridicule them. Brown is as hostile to the ULA as most commenters here who have more in common, despite their left wing sentiments, with the media establishment.

So, I'm not checking this shithole out any more. The best of luck with your PW fantasies of a Irish Left Wing Prester John political force who will rise up and tick all of the boxes that PW regulars seem to think indicate a 'real', 'serious' Left.

It's the ULA or bust for the Irish Left and most here on PW would appear to prefer bust. The 'left-wing' anti-ULA PW keyboard warriors will enjoy their day today and can attribute the 'No' vote to the ULA's failings. Enjoy it while you can.Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? You can stick to the purist leftist agenda of the ULA and wait until eternity for change, or you can decide you're in this to win it, or at least to get placed.

The stickie/provo split set back the left in this country by decades. It's time to work together to get as left leaning a Govt in place as possible. You saw what the electorate are made of today, they won't change without being led.

They won't follow hyper-idealistic parties with minimal support spouting Marx at them. So get popular or stay irrelevant.

There's a certain logic in working with SF to build a theoretical left wing voting alliance. You're not going to beat them so you might as well work to see what you can get out of their rise.

[Richardbouvet]

An excellent result for SF.

A disastrous pyrrhic victory for Labour, who dragged their people to the polls but have lost enormous working class goodwill in doing so.

ULA showed that they are not good at referendums. Areas like Dublin West and Dublin South Central should have had much stronger no votes than they did. Thanks a bunch ULA.

And Libertas, well, Libertas are back.

[fluffybiscuits]

Leaving aside the result, who were the winners and losers of the campaign?

Vincent Browne wrote this on the Politico.ie site -



I agree that much of the Left campaign was vague. A clear alternative was not put forward, nor was the Thatcherite "Shock and Awe" character of the Treaty conveyed.

I was not so impressed by Ganley, who doesn't get the free ride he used to - people remember that he has lost an election.

Mary Lou performed the best for SF. Clare Daly for the Left.

FF were forgettable. Kenny disastrous and Labour presented endless hostages to fortune.

SF the clear winners, in terms of how they are positioned to benefit from the campaign.

The left did a disjointed campaign I thought. Coming home yesterday back to the parents to vote I got a leaflet off the SWP whom were outside Connolly station. The leaflet said what should be done (vote no) and offered some solutions but nothing concrete and nothing to back up their assertions (tax the 5% richest people in Ireland and raise a couple of billion). FG and Labour proved themselves to be two faced and FF are riding on the coat tails of the yes voters. Shinners did have some success in that Pearse Doherty showed himself to be worthy of a seat in the Dail. Cant say any party came out incredibly well Im afraid.

[Apjp]

Yes, I agree with you about Browne. He is fundamentally closer to FF than anyone else.

The No campaign was very slow to surface, but in the last week made most of the running.

Government relied heavily on, as you say, heaving spending on postering and "stability.ie"

SF positioned themselves strongly as the lead No organisation, and FG played into their hands in this, with a view to blocking anti SF voters from the No side.

The Left, I think, needs to take opportunities like this to put forward a practical programme of budgeted measures.

nonsense. brownes close to sf in some ways re inequality the unsecured bank debt etc. but hes well on record in outing the traitors party.

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

[C. Flower]

nonsense. brownes close to sf in some ways re inequality the unsecured bank debt etc. but hes well on record in outing the traitors party.

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

Hmm. Very close and cosy with Haughey at times too.

A chameleon, politically.

[Sam Lord]

Who was that? Why is he/she so angry at a website?

:D

[Sam Lord]

If it ain't the ULA, who is it? Eh? You seem to believe that the Left can't answer the 'hard questions' about 'where the money is going to come from'. Here's a hard question for you: where is this other non-ULA political force in this state?

And I mentioned political forces, not political parties. Different concepts altogether.

Have you not been around long enough to remember when the Labour Party was the flag carrier for Social Democracy and they used to lecture everyone else (including the trots) ... "we are the only game in town, support us or be irrelevant?"

It's like Groundhog Day. :rolleyes:

Is there no position that "Labour" is vacating that you are not keen to occcupy?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Sinn Fein did well out of this Referendum. Mainly because they were the only ones not holding a white flag.

[musashi]

The ULA is it, it seems.

In which case, it had better get on and form a political party.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/20120420Grafik2321603547975648613.jpg
<Mod>Paul Murphy is more interested in getting his face on every No billboard and tv slot than representing the disenfranchised of this country.

<He> and Richard Boyd Parrot represent what can happen when populist politics rises.

[musashi]

Sinn Fein did well out of this Referendum. Mainly because they were the only ones not holding a white flag.

More used to holding a gun no doubt.

[simonj]

Seriously, we lost as a people - we also failed others in the EU - as the only country to hold national referendum on the fiscal pact, which all 27 EU members have signed except Britain and the Czech Republic.

Although a "no" vote would have fuelled the growing campaign for Europe to focus on growth rather than belt-tightening, it would not have plunged the EU into crisis, as Ireland did in voting against two previous EU treaties.

The fiscal pact could still have gone ahead without Ireland, as it needs to be ratified by just 12 countries to come into force.

[C. Flower]

If it ain't the ULA, who is it? Eh? You seem to believe that the Left can't answer the 'hard questions' about 'where the money is going to come from'. Here's a hard question for you: where is this other non-ULA political force in this state?

And I mentioned political forces, not political parties. Different concepts altogether.

Force implies a coherent, energetic and powerful organisation.

Whereas in the Lisbon Campaign there was an effective broad left campaign that organised coherently together, that just did not happen this time.

The ULA did not emerge as a coherent force in the Referendum Campaign, beyond the appearance of individual leadership figures in the mainstream media. Would you be able to provide a link to a statement from the ULA on its stance on the Referendum ? I have been searching the ULA website for one, but what I find is individual speeches by SP or PBP politicians.

I saw posters from the Household Charge Campaign, from the European socialist group and the Socialist Party and from People before Profit. There were few posters under the name of the ULA.

I saw Eirigi and some other small groups out leafletting, but not the ULA.

You may want to correct me on this, and tell me what I missed, and I would be delighted to be proven wrong.


You seem to believe that the Left can't answer the 'hard questions' about 'where the money is going to come from'.

You are mistaking me for someone else. What I said was


A clear alternative was not put forward, nor was the Thatcherite "Shock and Awe" character of the Treaty conveyed.

The Treaty has blown a hole in Constitutional protections in Ireland and opened the door for FG/Thatcherite wage slashing and attacks on basic democratic rights.

The ULA / SP / SWP allowed the agenda to be set by FG/Lab - steered away from the dangers of the Treaty to an irrelevant nit picking debate over the quite possibly irrelevant ESM.

If you want to look at how people are having to grasp with the realities of an alternative to the Treaty, and the ESM, have a look at Syriza's programme. I am not saying that I agree with it, but at least it is clearly written with a view to implementation in the real world this side of 2050.

The ULA needed to put forward not an answer to FG's "where are you going to get the money from" trick question, but a concrete and deliverable programme of measures to show how a ULA government would keep the population here fed, in work, housed, educated and with health services - and how to defend basic rights.

[Sam Lord]

Seriously, we lost as a people - we also failed others in the EU - as the only country to hold national referendum on the fiscal pact, which all 27 EU members have signed except Britain and the Czech Republic.

Although a "no" vote would have fuelled the growing campaign for Europe to focus on growth rather than belt-tightening, it would not have plunged the EU into crisis, as Ireland did in voting against two previous EU treaties.

The fiscal pact could still have gone ahead without Ireland, as it needs to be ratified by just 12 countries to come into force.

I think that is the saddest part of the outcome really. The people of Greece, Spain, etc. would have been heartened by a NO vote. Instead they just got a country submitting meekly to the diktat of the European ruling circles.

Not that long ago Ireland would have been a bright, shining light to the oppressed and exploited of the world. Today it is just ... well a disappointment. Sad really.

[C. Flower]

Well used to open discussion of Left politics. And who mentioned the SP?

Open discussion of Left politics is not what takes place here on PW. The few who seem to actually discuss anything, 'Bolshevik' for instance, make good points, even though I disagree with his political stance. But the vast majority of commenters here on the ULA, or any Left group for that matter, engage is a level of purile sneering that reads like the Sunday Independent. Yeah, I followed all of the ULA debates here and, with the exception of a couple of contributors, again 'Bolshevik' comes to mind, far too many made clear their hostility to the ULA.

The sneaking regard here for SF is fair enough, but indicative of a level of gullibility and willed ignorance when, for all Pearse Doherty's et all seeming coherence and media nous, they will implement the Trioka's directives, when the time comes, like they currently implement the Crown's laws.

The ULA is setting out to be a revolutionary party, from a small minority base. If it is effective it will get criticism from those hostile to that goal. If it is ineffective it will get criticism from those who support it.

The majority of people in Ireland at the moment may respect individual ULA leaders, but have not taken on the need for revolutionary politics. Inevitably, you will get joked about. I'm sure the Bolshevik Party was in its day, and every other new left party, when it started. You don't have to let it get to you.

You have more than a "sneaking regard" for SF to worry about. The Party has doubled its support in the polls in a year. The ULA has made no such development, in fact its recent second national conference had an attendance of less than half of its first one. Personally, I have no sneaking regard for SF and see it as politically close to FF. But I can see why there is a move of support towards them. Loss of sovereignty is a huge issue, and people feel the need for a strong government who look as though they can take on the EU elite. The media too have been happy to steer focus on to SF as the "real opposition" both because SF is not a socialist party, and because they know they have plenty on them to they can use scare away the soft middle class vote.

The SP is the major constituent of the ULA and part of the steering group. So I am mentioning it.

The ULA have the same opportunity to use the space here as anyone else does. Kieran Allen, for example, was invited to submit a blog on the Treaty, and did so, even though he was undoubtedly very busy. Paul Murphy was asked to, but did not reply.

The floor is open, and it is up to yourselves whether or not to take it.

[C. Flower]

Working class constituencies voted No. An uncomfortable fact for Labour.
Gilmore said this evening that he had been listening to people and now must deliver on jobs etc.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/working-class-areas-reject-treaty-553870.html

It sounds so like the Greens in government.

[Sam Lord]

The ULA is setting out to be a revolutionary party, from a small minority base.

I think this is quite contrary to what ULA activists have stated on this site many times. They see the ULA as an organisation of a "reformist" character. Something to the left of Labour.

[C. Flower]

I think this is quite contrary to what ULA activists have stated on this site many times. They see the ULA as an organisation of a "reformist" character. Something to the left of Labour.

Not at all. Paul Murphy said he was a revolutionary.

[Sam Lord]

Not at all. Paul Murphy said he was a revolutionary.

I have no doubt. He would claim the SP to be a revolutionary party. But there is little sense in a revolutionary party creating another revolutionary party if you follow my drift. They have repeatedly said that the ULA is intended to be a mass organisation of a reformist character.

I can dig out the quotes if you are interested.

[CMK]

They won't follow hyper-idealistic parties with minimal support spouting Marx at them. So get popular or stay irrelevant.



Thanks for making my point for me. When, at any stage of this referendum campaign, have any ULA public representatives 'spouted Marx' at people? Send links or examples of ULA members 'spouting Marx'. Epitomises 'Political World' exquisitely.

[CMK]

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/20120420Grafik2321603547975648613.jpg
<Mod>Paul Murphy is more interested in getting his face on every No billboard and tv slot than representing the disenfranchised of this country.

<He> and Richard Boyd Parrot represent what can happen when populist politics rises.

Ditto. Thanks for making my point for me. Jaysus, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. A serious contributor to the referendum campaign is referred to as a 'tool' and a 'clown'. The person who runs this site later wonder why Paul Murphy didn't respond to his/her request for a post. Could there be a connection between the attitude, completely uncorrected by the so-called 'moderators', expressed by 'musashi' and Paul Murphy's unwillingness to contribute. I read Murphy's contributions to this site and it was clear that he felt he has stumbled onto a particularly deranged part of the Irish political blogosphere.

[Shaadi]

Thanks for making my point for me. When, at any stage of this referendum campaign, have any ULA public representatives 'spouted Marx' at people? Send links or examples of ULA members 'spouting Marx'. Epitomises 'Political World' exquisitely.Where did I mention what the ULA said in this camapign? There's no need for me to go digging out old quotes, Uncle Joe ( who I'm quite fond of ) has the public convinced he's on the extreme left. The reality of his position is irrelevant as far as the public perception of him goes.


Those elected as part of the alliance will not do any deals or support any coalition with any of the right wing parties particularly Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. We are committed to building a mass left alternative to unite working people

http://richardboydbarrett.ie/pbpula/

Who are you willing to go into coalition with? If not FG/FF/LAB/SF then who?

[Seán Ryan]

Is this a new version of a flounce, where the flouncer witters on ad infinitum? Or was it merely a cry for attention?

[People Korps]

The ULA is it, it seems.

In which case, it had better get on and form a political party.
the SWP is already a party

[CMK]

If you want to look at how people are having to grasp with the realities of an alternative to the Treaty, and the ESM, have a look at Syriza's programme. I am not saying that I agree with it, but at least it is clearly written with a view to implementation in the real world this side of 2050.

The ULA needed to put forward not an answer to FG's "where are you going to get the money from" trick question, but a concrete and deliverable programme of measures to show how a ULA government would keep the population here fed, in work, housed, educated and with health services - and how to defend basic rights.

Syriza's programme looks good, I'll grant you that. Don't agree with some of it, but good nonetheless. But, if you've been watching the news recently, you'll notice that in Greece things are qualitatively different than they are here. We still have more than 50% of the electorate who either vote for, or declare their intentions to vote for, either of the FG, FF or Labour troika. Tweedledee, tweedledum and tweedledo are still the dominant political forces here. Whereas in Greece they have given their tweedledee and tweedledum a comprehensive boot in the hole.

And, Syriza are under ferocious assault by Greek establishment and media and, no doubt, the Greek equivalents of Political World. I heard RBB argue that we could re-schedule interest payments (11 billion per annum by 2015) as part of the plan to 'find the money'.

That's why 'Political World' doesn't deserve to be taken seriously because re-scheduling interest payments would have closed the deficit gap; that point was made, and ignored, by the mainstream media and yet commentators here still think the ULA blew it by having 'no alternative'.

There seems to be an endearingly naive belief among the bulk on commentators here on Political World that the mainstream media are honest brokers. 'Look, lads, we tried our best, but the ULA just couldn't cut it. Sad, but, sure, there ya' go'. The debate was, is and always will be stacked against anyone articulating a perspective beyond the bounds of neo-liberal orthodoxy that holds in both the mainstream media and, for different reasons, among the bulk of 'Political World' contributors.

There has been no, and I mean zero, critical examination in the media of the 'expansionary fiscal contraction', and idea central to the Irish economic orthodoxy, since 2008 to the present date and, yet, the media fixate on the irrelevant question of 'where will we get the money' while ignoring far more important points. There is no media coverage of the implications of the gap, unique to Ireland, between GNP and GDP, and what that means for the real nature of the debt/GDP and deficit calculations. Yet, Political World contributors fix upon, like dogs following a bone, 'where will we get the money' argument. Serious economic questions are poo-pooed here and minor questions elevated to pivotal importance.

Political World tracks, quite closely, the concerns of the mainstream media and is a good reflection of impact of mainstream tropes upon so-called 'Left Wingers'.

[People Korps]

I have no doubt. He would claim the SP to be a revolutionary party. But there is little sense in a revolutionary party creating another revolutionary party if you follow my drift. They have repeatedly said that the ULA is intended to be a mass organisation of a reformist character.

I can dig out the quotes if you are interested.

When one considers that about 15-20% reluctantly voted Yes and as many anti as pro or undecided abstained it is all to play for in the future . In such a vacuum as today's result and yesterday's turnout indicates fascism is likely to triumph should it raise a reasonable party , rather than the left

[People Korps]

Where is the dont get mad get even quotidian ? 50% turnout and 60% Yes = 30% for the Austerity troika of parties in a GE
should they manage to get their vote out

FYI I have copyrighted "Austerity troika" it is pay per use

[Shaadi]

Syriza's programme looks good, I'll grant you that. Don't agree with some of it, but good nonetheless. But, if you've been watching the news recently, you'll notice that in Greece things are qualitatively different than they are here. We still have more than 50% of the electorate who either vote for, or declare their intentions to vote for, either of the FG, FF or Labour troika. Tweedledee, tweedledum and tweedledo are still the dominant political forces here. Whereas in Greece they have given their tweedledee and tweedledum a comprehensive boot in the hole.

And, Syriza are under ferocious assault by Greek establishment and media and, no doubt, the Greek equivalents of Political World. I heard RBB argue that we could re-schedule interest payments (11 billion per annum by 2015) as part of the plan to 'find the money'.

That's why 'Political World' doesn't deserve to be taken seriously because re-scheduling interest payments would have closed the deficit gap; that point was made, and ignored, by the mainstream media and yet commentators here still think the ULA blew it by having 'no alternative'.

There seems to be an endearingly naive belief among the bulk on commentators here on Political World that the mainstream media are honest brokers. 'Look, lads, we tried our best, but the ULA just couldn't cut it. Sad, but, sure, there ya' go'. The debate was, is and always will be stacked against anyone articulating a perspective beyond the bounds of neo-liberal orthodoxy that holds in both the mainstream media and, for different reasons, among the bulk of 'Political World' contributors.

There has been no, and I mean zero, critical examination in the media of the 'expansionary fiscal contraction', and idea central to the Irish economic orthodoxy, since 2008 to the present date and, yet, the media fixate on the irrelevant question of 'where will we get the money' while ignoring far more important points. There is no media coverage of the implications of the gap, unique to Ireland, between GNP and GDP, and what that means for the real nature of the debt/GDP and deficit calculations. Yet, Political World contributors fix upon, like dogs following a bone, 'where will we get the money' argument. Serious economic questions are poo-pooed here and minor questions elevated to pivotal importance.

Political World tracks, quite closely, the concerns of the mainstream media and is a good reflection of impact of mainstream tropes upon so-called 'Left Wingers'.


Cry stop, refuse to further integrate. Not a simple proposition given the present crisis, there comes a time when you have to draw a line in the sand and say this far and no further. I would be quite happy in a second tier of European countries outside of the Eurozone core, how that would be achieved I'm not sure. They've been talking about a two speed EU for years. We have a €160bn GDP and an incredible amount of waste in our public spending. We can bite the bullet and move to balance the books ASAP or try to come close to it ASAP, if they want us to keep on track and to avoid us defaulting they can either provide the loans or watch us start to choose which loans we will pay back and which we will start to renegotiate.

Sounds like an economic war, but that's basically where we are at the moment. Our Govt's tactics are to toe the line and borrow up to our necks without engaging in serious reform of public spending. Our Govt are engaged in a subterfuge, they are loading on the debt, debt whose terms will be used as a weapon to force our electorate to agree to follow France and Germany's diktats as to how the EU proceeds.

No thanks, peripheral countries following the economic rules laid down by the large economies will be at a disadvantage. I don't think there are any easy solutions but I am prepared to accept years of hardship to retain our sovereignty.

That's basically the same argument as the RBB made, it's the position we should have taken and it's one we should have taken when we had the full NPRF at our disposal. Some of us are just as up for taking on the bankers leg breakers as the ULA are. Note, the cutting I'm suggesting is from the top down.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=250375#post250375

[Dr. FIVE]

class thread

[Dr. FIVE]

There seems to be an endearingly naive belief among the bulk on commentators here on Political World that the mainstream media are honest brokers.

Newspaper hall of guff (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=11907)

Print (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=6583)

RTE Watch ! (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=947)

Watching the Media. (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=8820)

State of News Media 2012 (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=11394)

[CMK]

That's basically the same argument as the RBB made, it's the position we should have taken and it's one we should have taken when we had the full NPRF at our disposal. Some of us are just as up for taking on the bankers leg breakers as the ULA are. Note, the cutting I'm suggesting is from the top down.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=250375#post250375

Shaadi, stick to 'spouting Marx at people' where did ULA representatives do this during the referendum, or any, campaign? Please, examples, a half-dozen would do, but the crux of your earlier point was that to be relevant you could can't be 'spout[ing] Marx at people', but I'd like to see examples of that in practice.

[C. Flower]

Shaadi, stick to 'spouting Marx at people' where did ULA representatives do this during the referendum, or any, campaign? Please, examples, a half-dozen would do, but the crux of your earlier point was that to be relevant you could can't be 'spout[ing] Marx at people', but I'd like to see examples of that in practice.

I certainly would too. There will be three rousing cheers from me if you find any examples.

[Andrew49]

I thought Paul Murphy had a good campaign. He was a relative unknown at the start of the year but has upped his profile considerably because of some decent media performances.
As far as I know he was the first person to highlight in the main stream media how the government had covertly signed up to the ESM blackmail clause.
Media wise, I'd think himself and Clare Daly were the outstanding campaigners on the left.

Paul needs some kind of media manager because optics work - they do!

Paul was being interviewed on TV today beside Coveney and he looked a good head shorter than Coveney.; never mind that Paul was more articulate than Coveney - who is very articulate himself - but Paul's message was lost to me because ... well because he looked like a short-ar5e!

Take a leaf out of Ronald Reagan's Hollywood book. Reagan and Errol Flynn (for younger readers: Flynn was the Brad Pitt of his day only Flynn had a more understanding tailor when it came to trousers) were to do some publicity shots for a movie but Reagan was unhappy with the test photos because he looked much shorter than Flynn. He filled a sandbag and stood on it to make himself the same height as Flynn. Worked for Reagan!

[C. Flower]

Ditto. Thanks for making my point for me. Jaysus, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. ..Could there be a connection between the attitude, completely uncorrected by the so-called 'moderators', expressed by 'musashi' and Paul Murphy's unwillingness to contribute. I read Murphy's contributions to this site and it was clear that he felt he has stumbled onto a particularly deranged part of the Irish political blogosphere.

Well, no there couldn't, as there were no such posts made about Paul Murphy prior to the one you just pointed out. The poster has been asked to self edit, and I'm sure he/she will when he/she's got over his/her reaction to your posts.

I have observed that some, but not all, SP posters adopt a hectoring, belligerent or self-victimising style when debating political disagreements. Providing they stay within forum rules, that is no problem. But they really should not be surprised when people are provoked to reply in kind.

Your point seems to be that there is some kind of like minded entity called Political World, that has a shared view of the ULA. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Apjp]

Hmm. Very close and cosy with Haughey at times too.

A chameleon, politically.

wasnt he the only writer that tried to expose his corruption at successive ard fheis's? and didn't haughey tap his phone and big his property? So where are you getting this from?

[C. Flower]

Syriza's programme looks good, I'll grant you that. Don't agree with some of it, but good nonetheless. But, if you've been watching the news recently, you'll notice that in Greece things are qualitatively different than they are here. We still have more than 50% of the electorate who either vote for, or declare their intentions to vote for, either of the FG, FF or Labour troika. Tweedledee, tweedledum and tweedledo are still the dominant political forces here. Whereas in Greece they have given their tweedledee and tweedledum a comprehensive boot in the hole.

And, Syriza are under ferocious assault by Greek establishment and media and, no doubt, the Greek equivalents of Political World. I heard RBB argue that we could re-schedule interest payments (11 billion per annum by 2015) as part of the plan to 'find the money'.

That's why 'Political World' doesn't deserve to be taken seriously because re-scheduling interest payments would have closed the deficit gap; that point was made, and ignored, by the mainstream media and yet commentators here still think the ULA blew it by having 'no alternative'.

There seems to be an endearingly naive belief among the bulk on commentators here on Political World that the mainstream media are honest brokers. 'Look, lads, we tried our best, but the ULA just couldn't cut it. Sad, but, sure, there ya' go'. The debate was, is and always will be stacked against anyone articulating a perspective beyond the bounds of neo-liberal orthodoxy that holds in both the mainstream media and, for different reasons, among the bulk of 'Political World' contributors.

There has been no, and I mean zero, critical examination in the media of the 'expansionary fiscal contraction', and idea central to the Irish economic orthodoxy, since 2008 to the present date and, yet, the media fixate on the irrelevant question of 'where will we get the money' while ignoring far more important points. There is no media coverage of the implications of the gap, unique to Ireland, between GNP and GDP, and what that means for the real nature of the debt/GDP and deficit calculations. Yet, Political World contributors fix upon, like dogs following a bone, 'where will we get the money' argument. Serious economic questions are poo-pooed here and minor questions elevated to pivotal importance.

Political World tracks, quite closely, the concerns of the mainstream media and is a good reflection of impact of mainstream tropes upon so-called 'Left Wingers'.


re-scheduling interest payments is closer to an FG/Lab approach to dealing with the debt crisis than anything that Syriza would be going for.

It's perfectly clear from your post that you don't read this site in any depth and are shooting off wildly and inaccurately into the dark about its content. Political World is an open and mixed political forum with thousands of serious threads on the world and Irish economy and politics from which you could learn something, and to which you could contribute.

You only read the occasional posts here critical of the SP and get yourself all wound up :)

[C. Flower]

wasnt he the only writer that tried to expose his corruption at successive ard fheis's? and didn't haughey tap his phone and big his property? So where are you getting this from?

This would give a flavour of it.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76809

[Shaadi]

Shaadi, stick to 'spouting Marx at people' where did ULA representatives do this during the referendum, or any, campaign? Please, examples, a half-dozen would do, but the crux of your earlier point was that to be relevant you could can't be 'spout[ing] Marx at people', but I'd like to see examples of that in practice.I pointed out in post # 41 that I didn't state that the ULA were spouting Marx at people in this campaign. If you want to deny that the ULA are considered Marxist by the public, off you go.

Where did I mention what the ULA said in this camapign? There's no need for me to go digging out old quotes, Uncle Joe ( who I'm quite fond of ) has the public convinced he's on the extreme left. The reality of his position is irrelevant as far as the public perception of him goes.



http://richardboydbarrett.ie/pbpula/

Who are you willing to go into coalition with? If not FG/FF/LAB/SF then who?

You refuse to answer any points I made, and harp on about me stating that the ULA were spouting Marx during the treaty debate.

[C. Flower]

When one considers that about 15-20% reluctantly voted Yes and as many anti as pro or undecided abstained it is all to play for in the future . In such a vacuum as today's result and yesterday's turnout indicates fascism is likely to triumph should it raise a reasonable party , rather than the left

In the past, fascism has been able to find space in times of crisis, but only after the left has failed to step up to the plate with a serious party and programme.

It's been clear from the time of the last GE that the state is divided more or less down the middle. The old order is literally and figuratively bankrupt, so it is all to play for, but fascism is all about maintaining the old order with radical means.

[People Korps]

In the past, fascism has been able to find space in times of crisis, but only after the left has failed to step up to the plate with a serious party and programme.

It's been clear from the time of the last GE that the state is divided more or less down the middle. The old order is literally and figuratively bankrupt, so it is all to play for, but fascism is all about maintaining the old order with radical means.

Or the New Order with radical means , look at the 7% for the Greek nutters I can only watch the Greek piss take in France as Nazi stuff is blocked on Youtube eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRXBnbrDJCU but hard Nazi boy makes press stand for Leader http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQEFJ2IUtGo see we are a year behind the Greeks in public look at the racist taximen

[Ah Well]

never mind that Paul was more articulate than Coveney - who is very articulate himself

Coveney articulate?

:confused:

The man stutters and bluffs through the bulk of ... everything

I must live on a different planet if articulate be his case

[Apjp]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0602/1224317134002.html

TAOISEACH ENDA Kenny has told German chancellor Angela Merkel he wants a deal on the Irish bank debt following the decision of the Irish people to vote Yes to the fiscal treaty.

Dr Merkel was one of a number of European leaders with whom the Taoiseach had a phone conversation yesterday when it became clear that the electorate had delivered a decisive Yes to the treaty.

He said later that by voting Yes the Irish people, who understood the banking situation, had sent a message that the issue had to be dealt with by the political leaders of Europe.

“Without going into technicalities, yes, I did raise directly the issue with the chancellor,” Mr Kenny told journalists.

[Apjp]

Irish bonds are also just below 7% after the result. We're soon on the way back to the good times baby :P Or so Enda says..

[Ah Well]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0602/1224317134002.html

TAOISEACH ENDA Kenny has told German chancellor Angela Merkel he wants a deal on the Irish bank debt following the decision of the Irish people to vote Yes to the fiscal treaty.

Dr Merkel was one of a number of European leaders with whom the Taoiseach had a phone conversation yesterday when it became clear that the electorate had delivered a decisive Yes to the treaty.

He said later that by voting Yes the Irish people, who understood the banking situation, had sent a message that the issue had to be dealt with by the political leaders of Europe.

“Without going into technicalities, yes, I did raise directly the issue with the chancellor,” Mr Kenny told journalists.

Comedy Gold that stuff :D

Actually, it would be hilarious if things weren't quite so serious

[PaddyJoe]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0602/1224317134002.html

TAOISEACH ENDA Kenny has told German chancellor Angela Merkel he wants a deal on the Irish bank debt following the decision of the Irish people to vote Yes to the fiscal treaty.

Dr Merkel was one of a number of European leaders with whom the Taoiseach had a phone conversation yesterday when it became clear that the electorate had delivered a decisive Yes to the treaty.

He said later that by voting Yes the Irish people, who understood the banking situation, had sent a message that the issue had to be dealt with by the political leaders of Europe.

“Without going into technicalities, yes, I did raise directly the issue with the chancellor,” Mr Kenny told journalists.
More bloody press releases being spun as news. The RTE Late News after the LL led with the line that Kenny had discussed the way forward with Francois Hollande:D
These are formulaic courtesy calls to other EU leaders which last about two minutes.
RTE and the Irish Times are passing on government spin as news.
God knows it was bad enough under FF but the churn of government spin just seems to get even more embarrassingly transparent.

[Ah Well]

More bloody press releases being spun as news. The RTE Late News after the LL led with the line that Kenny had discussed the way forward with Francois Hollande:D
These are formulaic courtesy calls to other EU leaders which last about two minutes.
RTE and the Irish Times are passing on government spin as news.
God knows it was bad enough under FF but the churn of government spin just seems to get even more embarrassingly transparent.

Well, when you have someone in charge who doesn't seem to debate just-like-that ... they do seem to have to be seen to be doing things, don't they :)

[Ah Well]

Well, when you have someone in charge who doesn't seem to debate just-like-that ... they do seem to have to be seen to be doing things, don't they :)

You see this pic

http://theamerican.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Enda-Kenny-Nicolas-Sarkozy-and-Dimitris-Christofias-Jan-30-2012-300x178.jpg

and you think

http://www.popkitten.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/cats-purr-2.jpeg

Purrrrrrrr goes the Irish Kitten

[barrym]

Read all the way through this thread, the best entry is the last.... and so true after the referendum, only difference is that Hollande is not touchy-feely.

CMK brings up a number of very valid points, not just about PW, although some of that is true too, a lot of knee jerk stuff, not much serious comment.

I would like to consider myself a left winger, i.e. I don't agree with capitalism as practised now, Reagan-Thatcher style. I have difficulty in identifying a political grouping never mind a party which represents my feelings. I voted Labour in 2010, and am seriously disappointed. I lean towards SF in the sense that they talk the talk, i.e. raise the taxes, screw the rich, but don't walk the walk. They are, like almost everyone in modern politics, opportunists. Murphy et al are good examples in the recent events. Even the otherwise boring and predictable such as the former Senator for TCD feel the need to push out his no vote on the eve of poll.

The political result of the referendum? The end of Labour, the rise of SF insofar as they said what some people wanted to hear. However, CMK is correct, the next election will be more tweedle dum - tweedle dee - because, in the run up to the election, they'll promise the usual short term guff.... and the non-thinkers will, sheeplike, believe them.

Ho-hum.

[Sam Lord]

CMK brings up a number of very valid points, not just about PW, although some of that is true too, a lot of knee jerk stuff, not much serious comment.



Personally, I found his/her attacks on the site quite bizarre. We have hundreds of people posting here from every political point of view imaginable and yet he/she treats the forum as if it was some sort of political organisation with a single line. Very odd. It's a discussion forum open to everyone. If you are a member of a political party it is ridiculous to expect that everyone here will be supportive and uncritical of that party.

And the place is full of serious comment. To the extent that it actually seems to put off a lot of casual internet commentators.

[CMK]

Paul needs some kind of media manager because optics work - they do!

Paul was being interviewed on TV today beside Coveney and he looked a good head shorter than Coveney.; never mind that Paul was more articulate than Coveney - who is very articulate himself - but Paul's message was lost to me because ... well because he looked like a short-ar5e!


That's informed political commentary! You expect people to take a site seriously where a commentator admits to not being able to follow a political figure's message because the said political figure was of a certain stature.

[C. Flower]

That's informed political commentary! You expect people to take a site seriously where a commentator admits to not being able to follow a political figure's message because the said political figure was of a certain stature.

I take it that you do not approve of Michael D. Higgins having stood on a box during the Presidential debate ?

Btw, I'm not sure what part of "open forum" it is possible to misunderstand. Are you suggesting that Andrew49's post should be censored?

[Sam Lord]

I take it that you do not approve of Michael D. Higgins having stood on a box during the Presidential debate ?


Sarkozy did it all the time.

[jmcc]

That's informed political commentary! You expect people to take a site seriously where a commentator admits to not being able to follow a political figure's message because the said political figure was of a certain stature.In modern politics, especially where TV is concerned, perception is everything. The Kennedy/Nixon Presidential debate had radio listeners thinking that Nixon had won but TV viewers considered that Kennedy won. Kenny was demolished when he went up against Ahern in a leaders debate. Anything else is just the twaddle of student bedsit politics.

Regards...jmcc

[Dr. FIVE]

burn the boxholders

[CMK]

Personally, I found his/her attacks on the site quite bizarre. We have hundreds of people posting here from every political point of view imaginable and yet he/she treats the forum as if it was some sort of political organisation with a single line. Very odd. It's a discussion forum open to everyone. If you are a member of a political party it is ridiculous to expect that everyone here will be supportive and uncritical of that party.

And the place is full of serious comment. To the extent that it actually seems to put off a lot of casual internet commentators.

Look, I've been following this site for about a year now, daily, several times a day actually. I know there isn't a single party line and I wouldn't expect there to be. That much is obvious to me from following the site.

What drags PW down is the amount of really puerile knocking which, from what I can see, is directed disproportionately at ULA figures. This very thread have proved my point in spades where two individuals have described Paul Murphy, a serious political figure agree, disagree or strongly disagree with him, as respectively a 'clown', a 'tool' and 'a short ar5e'. Then there is a persistent theme over the year where when any ULA politician does anything there are a rake of commentators here going 'Aw, sure, he'd do anything to get his name in the papers/face on the telly/voice on the radio'. Criticise, by all means, the activity there engaged in but don't just write everything off that they do as a series of cheap publicity stunts.

Throwing barbs at politicians trying to raise or build a profile is not under any conceivable circumstances serious political discussion. Politics is structured a certain way here and you have to do certain things, every politician from every party has to do the same, criticising those from one political orientation for engaging in standard political practice is not evidence of analytical acuity or insight. Yet the substance of most criticism of ULA politicians here is that there just chancers and gimmick merchants and can be dismissed ab initio without having to engage with their message. The fact that the ULA has some, small admittedly, resonance doesn't seem to matter to those who practice the Sunday Independent school of political analysis in their posts here.

The 'spouting Marx' allegation is just ridiculous as I've followed the ULA since its establishment and I don't think I've ever heard any of their public representatives mention any Marxist thinker. Because they know full well that the mainstream media would distort whatever it is they were trying to say. Another example of an obvious animus to the ULA pushing a poster to make something up out of thin air.

The reason I'm so touchy about this is that the referendum result has given a green light to austerity enforcers both here and their masters in Brussels, Frankfort and Berlin. The ULA and some other elements are the only forces in this state willing to organise and fight the ferocity that will be unleashed on this society by whatever Memorandum of Understanding is agreed for the second bailout. Sinn Fein won't fight austerity, they'll work with it.

I wouldn't be so stupid as to expect that PW would follow a party line, but what I suppose I would expect is that ULA politicians not be subjected to personalised abuse, such as on this thread, and that if a commenter hasn't got a coherent critique to make of a ULA position that they don't just revert to name-calling etc. Likewise for all politicians. I loath Brendan Howlin and what he's doing but I'd never call him a 'short ar5e'. By all means fire away at the ULA, SP, SWP, PbP et al but if you are going to fire away make it a bit longer than a few words an try to say something different. Don't just repeat silly one-liners that have been posted a thousand times before and don't use derogatory terms to describe political figures.

[Dr. FIVE]

There is equal opportunities puerile knocking on this site.. but there is also alot of top notch comment and analysis. If you think it's directed disproportionately at ULA figures as a litmus you can compare how many times the word 'loony' has been used on PW in comparison to almost everywhere else on the political net, Irish or otherwise.

This is probably one of about five sites where you don't see it.

[Sam Lord]

I wouldn't be so stupid as to expect that PW would follow a party line, but what I suppose I would expect is that ULA politicians not be subjected to personalised abuse, such as on this thread, and that if a commenter hasn't got a coherent critique to make of a ULA position that they don't just revert to name-calling etc.

I think you are on pretty thin ice here for it would seem to me that among those most prone to dispensing personalised abuse on this site have been SP members or supporters. I'm happy to go back and pull it all out and post it here if you don't believe me.

It seems to me that you are very good at dishing it but not very good at taking it. Particularly as there has been very little of what one might call "personalised abuse" directed at Murphy or other SP/ULA politicians on this site. Generally, it is criticism of a political character.

[Sam Lord]

Throwing barbs at politicians trying to raise or build a profile is not under any conceivable circumstances serious political discussion. Politics is structured a certain way here and you have to do certain things, every politician from every party has to do the same, criticising those from one political orientation for engaging in standard political practice is not evidence of analytical acuity or insight.


Well, I'm going to stick to my position that covering the place with posters of Paul Murphy during the referendum was the wrong thing to do. The public would not respond to that well. People would think it was not treating the issue seriously and just using money available for the referendum for party political advantage.

And I'm going to insist that this is a valid politlcal criticism. Sorry.

[CMK]

Well, I'm going to stick to my position that covering the place with posters of Paul Murphy during the referendum was the wrong thing to do. The public would not respond to that well. People would think it was not treating the issue seriously and just using money available for the referendum for party political advantage.

And I'm going to insist that this is a valid politlcal criticism. Sorry.

That's a valid criticism. But what would you advise, then for someone with a low profile holding a seat who was more or less unknown prior to the referendum campaign? In politics, particularly media driven politics in a neo-liberal democracy, you have to do things that you might not want to do or which might alienate a substantial number of people. You have to take risks, and, I agree, it was risky to personalise posters in a referendum campaign (I think, though, Emer Costello did the same with her leaflets if not her posters). Paul Murphy's face on the posters probably did annoy tens of thousands of people, tens of thousands more where probably indifferent to it and tens of thousands more again probably registered the face and the name and joined the dots; when the Euro elections roll round they'll know who he is and give him the time of day. Politics, basic level politics. One could make the argument that as the only MEP against the treaty (I think Marian Harkin was critically supportive of it, but I stand to be corrected on that point) it was legitimate to have his name and face on the posters. 40% of those who voted were against the treaty but only 8% of MEPs were against it, so there is a mismatch between the represented and representatives on this point.

[Sam Lord]

But what would you advise, then for someone with a low profile holding a seat who was more or less unknown prior to the referendum campaign?

I would advise someone campaiging on the referendum to do just that and leave the personal (or party political) promotion out of it. You may have boosted Murphy's chances in the next European elections but you damaged the NO campaign in doing so, imo.

There is also the point that you are supposed to be in an alliance with the SWP and building a common organisation together. What would their activists think of you putting up posters of Murphy all over the place while they are handing out leaflets or whatever simply advocating a NO vote? Or are these considerations of no matter to you?

[Shaadi]

The 'spouting Marx' allegation is just ridiculous as I've followed the ULA since its establishment and I don't think I've ever heard any of their public representatives mention any Marxist thinker. Because they know full well that the mainstream media would distort whatever it is they were trying to say. Another example of an obvious animus to the ULA pushing a poster to make something up out of thin air.
http://socialistparty.net/images/stories/logo2.png

http://socialistparty.net/plugins/content/jumultithumb/Li4vLi4vLi4vaW1hZ2VzL3N0b3JpZXMvY2FwaXRhbGlzbS5naW YmYW1wO3c9MjAwJmFtcDtoPTMwMCZhbXA7cT05MA==.jpg


It is the struggle over the proportion of the share of the wealth produced that goes to the worker (wages) and that which goes to the boss (profit) that constitutes the “class struggle” While bosses try to force wages down, workers and their unions are trying to push them up, each fighting for a bigger piece of the pie.

Because capitalists own the means of production i.e. the machinery, materials and equipment needed to produce the particular product they sell, what, how and how much is produced is completely out of workers control, regardless of how it affects the broader society. The only factor for the boss is how much profit can be made. This can be seen in the famous words of Lord Stokes, ex-chairman of British Leyland “I’m in business to make money, not cars”.

As socialists, whilst we fight for better wages and conditions for workers, we also recognise that it is the whole system which must be replaced. Any gains won under capitalism are not permanent and can be taken back.

Only by creating a democratic socialist planned economy under the ownership and control of the working class can we not only end the mass exploitation of workers, but develop technology and production for the benefit of society and end the waste and destruction caused by the capitalist market system.

http://socialistparty.net/theory/468-how-capitalism-works

You take a trite remark from a post, a remark that was intended to address the public perception of the SP element of the ULA and you insist several times that the remark was being used to say that the ULA were spouting Marxist ideology during the campaign.

Would you kindly cop on, and admit that the Socialist party have a Marxist analysis of the problems facing the workers of the world.

If the (SP) ULA has left Marxism/Trotskyism behind, you might be kind enough to inform this ill-informed poster what exact brand of Socialism the SP website is spouting.

As an aside, I have absolutely zero animus towards the ULA and wish them well.

[Dr. FIVE]

Surely this is the kind of sniping you should be concerned with CMK

http://www.hotpress.com/8927621.html?new_layout=1

[C. Flower]

...
The 'spouting Marx' allegation is just ridiculous as I've followed the ULA since its establishment and I don't think I've ever heard any of their public representatives mention any Marxist thinker. Because they know full well that the mainstream media would distort whatever it is they were trying to say. Another example of an obvious animus to the ULA pushing a poster to make something up out of thin air.


The first sentence of this passage by Trotsky for some reason sticks in my mind.


It is necessary to call things by their right names.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/idom/dm/09-pbopp.htm

No Marxist party should ever bow down to Sindo-think to the extent of denying their Marxism.

One of the criticisms I've made here of the SP in the past was that the term "working-class" was replaced by "ordinary people." That might sound like a quibble, but the term "working class" used by Marxists is a "scientific term" that has a particular meaning - the class that is created by capitalism, and that produces everything, but that is also the grave digger of capitalism.

"Ordinary people" loses all that meaning, in compromise with fashionable, bourgeois terminology and outlook.

In the last year, I have been pleased to hear some SPers use the proper term.


The reason I'm so touchy about this is that the referendum result has given a green light to austerity enforcers both here and their masters in Brussels, Frankfort and Berlin.

I feel your pain, and for that reason, you are being given a one-off pass for your abusing this site ;)


The ULA and some other elements are the only forces in this state willing to organise and fight the ferocity that will be unleashed on this society by whatever Memorandum of Understanding is agreed for the second bailout. Sinn Fein won't fight austerity, they'll work with it.

There are several other groups and parties who opposed the Treaty. It remains to be seen who will seriously take this foreward. The ULA is a project which I have taken seriously since it was first proposed, whilst reserving the right to criticise.


I wouldn't be so stupid as to expect that PW would follow a party line, but what I suppose I would expect is that ULA politicians not be subjected to personalised abuse, such as on this thread, and that if a commenter hasn't got a coherent critique to make of a ULA position that they don't just revert to name-calling etc. Likewise for all politicians. I loath Brendan Howlin and what he's doing but I'd never call him a 'short ar5e'. By all means fire away at the ULA, SP, SWP, PbP et al but if you are going to fire away make it a bit longer than a few words an try to say something different. Don't just repeat silly one-liners that have been posted a thousand times before and don't use derogatory terms to describe political figures.

That is good advice, and would promote more serious debate - although the abuse kicked in after your own rather irate entry into the thread.

But I appreciate the reason you were touchy.

[CMK]

I feel your pain, and for that reason, you are being given a one-off pass for your abusing this site ;)



Sorry for abusing this site, which, upon, ahem, 'mature reflection', isn't that bad and I do appreciate there are a few sharp, informative people posting, more than a few.

[Sam Lord]

Sorry for abusing this site, which, upon, ahem, 'mature reflection', isn't that bad and I do appreciate there are a few sharp, informative people posting, more than a few.

Thanks. ;)

[Saoirse go Deo]

Paul Murphy did good, based on the fact that I now know who he is.


I'm biased, but I think SF have come out of this in great shape.

[Dr. FIVE]

They have indeed but they have a long way to go if they're going convince the rest of the country to believe let alone elect them.

[C. Flower]

Sorry for abusing this site, which, upon, ahem, 'mature reflection', isn't that bad and I do appreciate there are a few sharp, informative people posting, more than a few.

Apols. accepted. As said before, it is a trying time for many of us.

[Seán Ryan]

Now I'm really confused - Brendan Howlin isn't a short ar$e?

[barrym]

I feel your pain, and for that reason, you are being given a one-off pass for your abusing this site ;)

I have already commented that CMK had justified criticisms; I assumed your comment was in jest, winks don't always show if your reading on a smart phone, although CMK's apology further on might indicate he didn't think you were....



That is good advice, and would promote more serious debate - although the abuse kicked in after your own rather irate entry into the thread.

But I appreciate the reason you were touchy.

Condescending??

[C. Flower]

I have already commented that CMK had justified criticisms; I assumed your comment was in jest, winks don't always show if your reading on a smart phone, although CMK's apology further on might indicate he didn't think you were....
Condescending??

CMK is a serious poster, is seriously opposed to the Treaty, and I accepted his point that this contributed to his exasperation with criticism of the ULA, along with his apology.

If there are general points people want to make about this site, the Feedback forum is there for that purpose. This is a thread about the political gains and losses from the Referendum Campaign.

[riposte]

Sorry for abusing this site, which, upon, ahem, 'mature reflection', isn't that bad and I do appreciate there are a few sharp, informative people posting, more than a few.

Thanks :)

[barrym]

If there are general points people want to make about this site, the Feedback forum is there for that purpose. This is a thread about the political gains and losses from the Referendum Campaign.

OK, I am feeling suitably slapped down.

[C. Flower]

OK, I am feeling suitably slapped down.

I'm sorry about that. This has been a rather prickly thread, all round. Perhaps post-referendum stress syndrome took its toll on us.

[Sam Lord]

I'm sorry about that. This has been a rather prickly thread, all round. Perhaps post-referendum stress syndrome took its toll on us.

Great thread, actually. I enjoyed it immensely.

[fluffybiscuits]

Great thread, actually. I enjoyed it immensely.

I came in just after reading the debacle ;)

Just getting back in point , Sinn Fein are going to greatly benefit from this. The ULA are not going to get a leg up because of their stance and the FF/FG/Lab axis is hated pretty much for selling Ireland up **** creek without a paddle. Shinners will spout populice clap trap now and will become the largest party in the country. Perhaps Grry should step down and let Pearse Doherty to leader and give Mary Lou the boot and get the party started back up again as a decent alternative that some might seriously consider. Me , I will still be supporting the ULA ...

[riposte]

I came in just after reading the debacle ;)

Just getting back in point , Sinn Fein are going to greatly benefit from this. The ULA are not going to get a leg up because of their stance and the FF/FG/Lab axis is hated pretty much for selling Ireland up **** creek without a paddle. Shinners will spout populice clap trap now and will become the largest party in the country. Perhaps Grry should step down and let Pearse Doherty to leader and give Mary Lou the boot and get the party started back up again as a decent alternative that some might seriously consider. Me , I will still be supporting the ULA ...

and this why the left will never wield power in this country .... the viciousness of the divisions between the left wing parties and their readiness to fight among themselves dating back to the Spanish Civil War .... illustrates that brains are always in short supply on the left.

[fluffybiscuits]

and this why the left will never wield power in this country .... the viciousness of the divisions between the left wing parties and their readiness to fight among themselves dating back to the Spanish Civil War .... illustrates that brains are always in short supply on the left.

Its due to our intentions being too noble to not be diverted by big business like the right. With what you are suggesting it would require a merger of Shinners and the ULA and perhaps Labour (or its leftie elements ?) :)

[Shaadi]

Its due to our intentions being too noble to not be diverted by big business like the right. With what you are suggesting it would require a merger of Shinners and the ULA and perhaps Labour (or its leftie elements ?) :)For a start, they should encourage their supporters to transfer to each other. Once you've given your number 1 to your own brand of left candidate, you shouldn't be so bitter as to begrudge the rest of the left.

There's a block of approximately 40% left leaning voters, 35% between SF and Labour ( if they can be rehabilitated ) plus 5%+ between ULA and left leaning Independents.

The Clare Daly abortion bill although defeated was a demonstration of left wing credibility, where the potential of the left was on show. There's nothing but hardship coming down the track, 10% of a swing to the left and there's a left wing Govt on the cards.

A bit of cooperation on the left would make them so much more electable.

[fluffybiscuits]

For a start, they should encourage their supporters to transfer to each other. Once you've given your number 1 to your own brand of left candidate, you shouldn't be so bitter as to begrudge the rest of the left.

There's a block of approximately 40% left leaning voters, 35% between SF and Labour ( if they can be rehabilitated ) plus 5%+ between ULA and left leaning Independents.

The Clare Daly abortion bill although defeated was a demonstration of left wing credibility, where the potential of the left was on show. There's nothing but hardship coming down the track, 10% of a swing to the left and there's a left wing Govt on the cards.

A bit of cooperation on the left would make them so much more electable.


Agree mostly with what you say but I think for the mean time we need a little bit more of a change in the complete left . The ULA has and always will have my vote for the forseeable future but they as they are novices in politics and still learning they will need a bit more experience but you are spot on about Clare Dalys bill (I wanted to see it pass). Shinners have an issue in that they know that what they stand for has changed and perhaps they need a make over. Adams and Maguinness step aside (bring Mary Lou) and appoint Pearse Doherty as leader and finally Labour. Well Labour need to stop selling themselves to Fine Gael, they cant seem to stand on their own two feet. They seem to have become a left party with right tendencies.

[Saoirse go Deo]

Agree mostly with what you say but I think for the mean time we need a little bit more of a change in the complete left . The ULA has and always will have my vote for the forseeable future but they as they are novices in politics and still learning they will need a bit more experience but you are spot on about Clare Dalys bill (I wanted to see it pass). Shinners have an issue in that they know that what they stand for has changed and perhaps they need a make over. Adams and Maguinness step aside (bring Mary Lou) and appoint Pearse Doherty as leader and finally Labour. Well Labour need to stop selling themselves to Fine Gael, they cant seem to stand on their own two feet. They seem to have become a left party with right tendencies.
How has what SF stands for changed?

[disability student]

ULA ..... too many chiefs spoil the broth & many individual politicians not fighting for unity but for themselves rather than in ULA.

ULA -bloated hot air and waste of time.. they have been in effective to date except for SF who are in the ascendency. They don't capture people's imagination just like Syzria did in Greece.

SF would need to drop their baggage such as Adams/Mc Guinness in order to capture more core & floating votes out there in the vacuum.

ULA needs to get their act together otherwise it's a lost opportunity this time around.

[fluffybiscuits]

How has what SF stands for changed?

The priority of the country has shifted from a United Ireland to a more economic outlook. Sinn Fein primary target is to see the unification of Ireland, Im not saying that its off the agenda completely. Plus Adams and Maguiness are I think too traditionalist but in saying that I love their policies on human rights :)

[Shaadi]

The SF baggage as ye call it, is what gives the shinners a reason to carry on and a core value. Without that core republican ideal of building towards a 32 county egalitarian republic, they are just another left of centre party.

It doesn't seem to get through to people that SF are on a mission, that mission is to build a proper Republic not just to achieve power for the sake of power. That Republic would be based on left of centre pragmatism and a fairly left of centre social policy.

Their ideals may fall by the wayside on their journey to power. So the old guard are a reminder to the party of what its goals should be.

[Saoirse go Deo]

The SF baggage as ye call it, is what gives the shinners a reason to carry on and a core value. Without that core republican ideal of building towards a 32 county egalitarian republic, they are just another left of centre party.

It doesn't seem to get through to people that SF are on a mission, that mission is to build a proper Republic not just to achieve power for the sake of power. That Republic would be based on left of centre pragmatism and a fairly left of centre social policy.

Their ideals may fall by the wayside on their journey to power. So the old guard are a reminder to the party of what it's goals should be.
Very good post.


The old guard are essential, especially with the many gloryhunting careerists joining recently.

[Sam Lord]

Very good post.


The old guard are essential, especially with the many gloryhunting careerists joining recently.

Will you stuff them and prop them up at the front at every Ard Feish following their deaths or will it just be an open field for gloryhunting careerists?

[Greengoddess]

Hypothetical question :

If Sinn Fein were to get into government tomorrow, what do you think there first act would be re the economy/ debt..
What do you think it SHOULD be?

This is a real question .BTW, not a political attack or anything

[Shaadi]

Hypothetical question :

If Sinn Fein were to get into government tomorrow, what do you think there first act would be re the economy/ debt..
What do you think it SHOULD be?

This is a real question .BTW, not a political attack or anythingAttack away, I'm only a fellow traveller, SF can be dispensed with if they don't do the job that they're being sent to do. :)

Their first act should be to get thick with the EU/ECB, start to make noises about defaulting and see what they can achieve in the line of debt reduction/restructuring, all the while being aware of the Realpolitik of our situation.

Regardless of whether they get anywhere with the EU/ECB, there's an incredible amount of waste and cronyism in Govt spending that's not being tackled.

In the event of a standoff with the EU/ECB over the debt burden, they should proceed to cut spending from the top down quickly and sensibly. The excess money that's going to the very well paid from the public purse is going into savings/investments, it won't do too much damage to the economy not to give it to them in the first place.

The primary budget deficit is within easy reach. Armed with the ability to run the country in a default situation, they can hum and haw about paying the debts and put the ball in the EU/ECBs court.

Most people accept the need to balance the books, further cutbacks are almost inevitable. Austerity for the little people while the connected are immune makes that austerity intolerable to fair minded people.

Gestures, goodwill etc would make the medicine taste less bitter. Radical choices can be made, Aherns pension, Cowens pension etc can be reduced or taxed severely. The constitution and laws can be altered, it is possible to change the system, it just requires the will to do so.

Unfortunately, this is all pie in the sky, our conservative electorate will not give anyone the chance to really shake things up.

[riposte]

The SF baggage as ye call it, is what gives the shinners a reason to carry on and a core value. Without that core republican ideal of building towards a 32 county egalitarian republic, they are just another left of centre party.

It doesn't seem to get through to people that SF are on a mission, that mission is to build a proper Republic not just to achieve power for the sake of power. That Republic would be based on left of centre pragmatism and a fairly left of centre social policy.

Their ideals may fall by the wayside on their journey to power. So the old guard are a reminder to the party of what its goals should be.

A perfect post!

[riposte]

Its due to our intentions being too noble )

The road to hell is paved with noble intentions.

[Slim Buddha]

In answer to the question


Wolfgang Schäuble!

[Greengoddess]

In answer to the question


Wolfgang Schäuble!

Darth Vader you mean. Now where is Luke thingy? And that princess.

[Slim Buddha]

Darth Vader you mean. Now where is Luke thingy? And that princess.


Admittedly, Wolfie is hard to like but there is worse in Germany. Ever heard of Peer Steinbrück?

[fluffybiscuits]

The SF baggage as ye call it, is what gives the shinners a reason to carry on and a core value. Without that core republican ideal of building towards a 32 county egalitarian republic, they are just another left of centre party.

It doesn't seem to get through to people that SF are on a mission, that mission is to build a proper Republic not just to achieve power for the sake of power. That Republic would be based on left of centre pragmatism and a fairly left of centre social policy.

Their ideals may fall by the wayside on their journey to power. So the old guard are a reminder to the party of what its goals should be.

Im not saying dispense with it completely but perhaps put it lower down the list of priorities. Shinners have the opportunity to now make the most of what is essentially a power vaccum at the moment. They can float in and hoover up the support from disenfranchised Labour supporters, FF/FG heads who hate what their party has become and fight for the ULA vote. They have some excellent points in their manifestos (gay rights and immigration deserve a special mention) but they need to perhaps modernise themselves. The old guard should take a steo back at least, be there as a timely reminder and stay involved but also take a step back and let the young guns take the mantle.

[Ogiol]

I firmly believe that a united ireland will make a huge difference economically. First of all up here, we might as well be an island off the west coast with reguards to funding and public service. The border has economically wrecked the whole border region. Cities and towns have been cut off from their hinterland right left and centre. If you took away the border and all the burocracy that it involveds the northwest region would certainly be one of the strongest economically given that the fourth city of this country is there.

With regard to the old guard, i think Gerry has already wisely taken a step back, allowing Pierce Doherty, Mary-lou etc. to take the limelight. Indeed, the stability of the sinn féin leadership has benefited the party greatly, (no internal wrangling, etc.)

[C. Flower]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0602/1224317134002.html

TAOISEACH ENDA Kenny has told German chancellor Angela Merkel he wants a deal on the Irish bank debt following the decision of the Irish people to vote Yes to the fiscal treaty.

Dr Merkel was one of a number of European leaders with whom the Taoiseach had a phone conversation yesterday when it became clear that the electorate had delivered a decisive Yes to the treaty.

He said later that by voting Yes the Irish people, who understood the banking situation, had sent a message that the issue had to be dealt with by the political leaders of Europe.

“Without going into technicalities, yes, I did raise directly the issue with the chancellor,” Mr Kenny told journalists.

No he did not.... Did he ?


a Government spokesman yesterday reiterated that the Taoiseach has not sought and is not seeking a writedown of the debt.

Instead, Mr Kenny is seeking to lengthen the term of repayment, reduce the interest rates attached to the debt, or find some other way of easing the burden.

The Government yesterday released the text of the letter which Mr Kenny wrote to Ms Merkel and other EU leaders following the yes vote in the fiscal treaty referendum.

In the letter, Mr Kenny says: "The solution is, in Ireland’s view, to accelerate moves to develop a joint response to the banking crisis in Europe."

But in addition to not requesting a writedown of the Irish debt, the letter does not spell out what the Government is actually seeking.

Mr Kenny’s spokesman said the letter was a general letter to EU leaders on the European crisis and "wasn’t designed" to go into specifics on Ireland.

The spokesman said it was possible Mr Kenny had gone into more specifics in his telephone call with Ms Merkel following the referendum result.

But he said Mr Kenny was not going to discuss the detail of that call in public, suggesting it would be "irresponsible" to negotiate through the media.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0613/ireland/fine-gael-td-calls-for-bank-debt-writedown-197190.html

[C. Flower]

I firmly believe that a united ireland will make a huge difference economically. First of all up here, we might as well be an island off the west coast with reguards to funding and public service. The border has economically wrecked the whole border region. Cities and towns have been cut off from their hinterland right left and centre. If you took away the border and all the burocracy that it involveds the northwest region would certainly be one of the strongest economically given that the fourth city of this country is there.

With regard to the old guard, i think Gerry has already wisely taken a step back, allowing Pierce Doherty, Mary-lou etc. to take the limelight. Indeed, the stability of the sinn féin leadership has benefited the party greatly, (no internal wrangling, etc.)

The border is being eroded, but from the North downwards. We've had QE2, now its OK for Irish soldiers to defect to the British army, and we have the Olympic torch run across the place as some kind of indicator of our zombie province status.

[morticia]

The border is being eroded, but from the North downwards. We've had QE2, now its OK for Irish soldiers to defect to the British army, and we have the Olympic torch run across the place as some kind of indicator of our zombie province status.

You forgot all those nice leaflets the Ukip people printed to persuade a No vote in the recent referendum. They aren't even posing as any indigenous movement any more. I still can't believe that that is allowed; Ukip isn't an official party here. Mind you, since those leaflets were probably a total gift to the Yes campaign, perhaps that's why they were allowed.