Gay Marriage

[fluffybiscuits]

A lot of talk recently on gay marriage after North Carolina in the US rejected it out right opting to define marriage as being between a man and a woman . This move in itself is an affront to the dignity of the LGBT community in North Caroline but got me thinking about gay marriage in a general context and especially here in Ireland. Ireland has as you know , civil partnership which confers most entitlements to a smae sex partner but stops short at adoption and there is an issue around inheritance. To this end I propose the government introduce gay marriage or indeed something akin to gay marriage as marriage to me has religious connotations. There is support here in Ireland from all corners of society for such a move and such a move should be granted no questions asked. As I pointed out on another thread, some rights are non negotiable and are not subjective as society sees it that way. Why should others dictate to me how I live my private life? From most quarters the religious institutions in Ireland and the right in Ireland have consistently undermined or made efforts to bring anything in by stifling it.

[Slim Buddha]

Good luck with that!

[fluffybiscuits]

I re read what I wrote, doesnt flow to well but gets my point across !Im not gifted with prose unfortunately!

[Slim Buddha]

I get your point. My point is that ireland is still a deeply conservative country and progress on this issue will be slow.

[fluffybiscuits]

I get your point. My point is that ireland is still a deeply conservative country and progress on this issue will be slow.

The vast majority of people support gay marriage. Well in Ireland anywyas. A poll a while back showed 73% of Irish people supported it, for a conservative country that is a huge amount of support

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/poll-73-of-public-back-allowing-same-sex-marriage-in-constitution-184849.html

[Slim Buddha]

The vast majority of people support gay marriage. Well in Ireland anywyas. A poll a while back showed 73% of Irish people supported it, for a conservative country that is a huge amount of support

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/poll-73-of-public-back-allowing-same-sex-marriage-in-constitution-184849.html

73%??? Mmmmmmmmmmm! I am surprised and a little bit sceptical. But I am prepared to be shocked :eek:

[Slim Buddha]

By the way, fluffy, and this is totally off topic but the German Cup Final is on right now and, amazingly, Borussia Dortmund lead Bayern Munich 3-1 at half time. It is a great game !

[fluffybiscuits]

73%??? Mmmmmmmmmmm! I am surprised and a little bit sceptical. But I am prepared to be shocked :eek:

Nah dont be, there is a lot more in favour than opinion polls I believe if anecdotal evidence is to go on.


By the way, fluffy, and this is totally off topic but the German Cup Final is on right now and, amazingly, Borussia Dortmund lead Bayern Munich 3-1 at half time. It is a great game !


Watched the end of the Setanta cup, Crusaders did well! Couldnt believe it!

[eamo]

Kevin Craft is worth subscribing to, here is his thoughts on Gay Marriage.

President Obama Confirms His Support For Same Sex Marriage.. - YouTube

Fluffy, don't put too much faith in opinion polls, I dont think Gay Marriage would get past a referendum in Ireland at present, and the more the Islamic influence grows the less chance of such a measure passing.
When I was canvassing in the first divorce referendum, the one that was defeated, I made myself unpopular by repeatedly forecasting a "no" result among my over-confident fellow "yes" campaigners. They had opinion polls to back them up and I had the insight of knowing a wider section of Irish society, including a rural and Catholic people which they seemed not to be even aware of. The shock to some people when what they thought was such an obviously just measure was defeated was severe. Some people got very bitter and/or cynical. A lot disappeared and afaik never were politically active again.
And while I am on the subject, the common perception of old people been intolerant of GLBT folk and young people been all tolerant is in my opinion mistaken. In fact the term "Gay" is used as a term of abuse (among others which I wont mention here) amongst young people. And you would be surprised to see the live-and-let-live attitude some old codgers have. The high tide of reform and liberalism may have been reached. We will know very shortly if we, as a species will progress or regress.
I fear the worst.

[yehbut_nobut]

Fluffy, don't put too much faith in opinion polls, I dont think Gay Marriage would get past a referendum in Ireland at present, and the more the Islamic influence grows the less chance of such a measure passing.



There's a school of opinion that says that as as the constitution doesn't define what marriage is, no amendment is needed to introduce Same Sex Marriage.

Verey easy for a sensible (brave?) government to introduce the legislation, and allow it to be tested be the supreme court either by way of Presidenntial referal ar legal challenge.

But I still don't see what aspect of Gay Marriage would be "repugnant to the constitution" as it stands.

[fluffybiscuits]

Kevin Craft is worth subscribing to, here is his thoughts on Gay Marriage.

President Obama Confirms His Support For Same Sex Marriage.. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRJaXuNZO_U)

Fluffy, don't put too much faith in opinion polls, I dont think Gay Marriage would get past a referendum in Ireland at present, and the more the Islamic influence grows the less chance of such a measure passing.
When I was canvassing in the first divorce referendum, the one that was defeated, I made myself unpopular by repeatedly forecasting a "no" result among my over-confident fellow "yes" campaigners. They had opinion polls to back them up and I had the insight of knowing a wider section of Irish society, including a rural and Catholic people which they seemed not to be even aware of. The shock to some people when what they thought was such an obviously just measure was defeated was severe. Some people got very bitter and/or cynical. A lot disappeared and afaik never were politically active again.
And while I am on the subject, the common perception of old people been intolerant of GLBT folk and young people been all tolerant is in my opinion mistaken. In fact the term "Gay" is used as a term of abuse (among others which I wont mention here) amongst young people. And you would be surprised to see the live-and-let-live attitude some old codgers have. The high tide of reform and liberalism may have been reached. We will know very shortly if we, as a species will progress or regress.
I fear the worst.


Ireland does not have any visible influence from Islam though at all on its culture from what I can see. Most people I am aware of are open to the idea of gay marriage and there is a small minority of those whom still oppose it, fine they can but their rationale is often blown to shreds by myself and others like Roll On or Riadach on p.ie or the forummers on boards or other sites. We encounter the usual "every child needs a mother and father" (what do you do about single mothers then?) or "what about the abuse of the child by bullies" (bullies will bully if kids are fat, small, ginger, whatever they will always find a point to bully over).


Article 41.1.1° of the Constitution "recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law"

This is from wikipedia.

Yeahbut_nobut is right. This is open to interpretation and as such will not need to be ammended. Such rights should just be changed, no questions asked as some rights are just not questionable. No one else should have the right to dictate how I live my life :)

[Count Bobulescu]

Fluffy, I don’t share your optimism, you may be living in a bubble. If you need evidence of a disconnect in peoples responses as between replies to polling questions and actions at the polls, look no further than the US. Gay marriage gains have been made in the 7 states where the Courts and Legislators acted. When it was left to the public to vote in the thirty states that have voted on it, thirty states have rejected gay marriage by varying degrees. Last week North Carolina went a step further by enshrining it in the State Constitution a provision that will make it more difficult for voters in the future to undo the actions of the voters of today.

At the same time there have been numerous opinion polls such as the one below indicating that the public is RAPIDLY moving toward favoring Gay Marriage. The comparison is drawn with abortion where opposition has remained static for 35 years. But the voters actions on Gay Marriage tell a different story. It is largely explained by the red state-blue state dichotomy.

MAJORITY FINDS BEING GAY MORALLY ACCEPTABLE: 54% consider gay or lesbian relations morally acceptable, according to numbers released by Gallup this morning. Public acceptance of gay/lesbian relations as morally acceptable grew slowly but steadily from 38% in 2002 to 56% in 2011 and is now holding at the majority level. http://bit.ly/JWor81

[fluffybiscuits]

Fluffy, I don’t share your optimism, you may be living in a bubble. If you need evidence of a disconnect in peoples responses as between replies to polling questions and actions at the polls, look no further than the US. Gay marriage gains have been made in the 7 states where the Courts and Legislators acted. When it was left to the public to vote in the thirty states that have voted on it, thirty states have rejected gay marriage by varying degrees. Last week North Carolina went a step further by enshrining it in the State Constitution a provision that will make it more difficult for voters in the future to undo the actions of the voters of today.

At the same time there have been numerous opinion polls such as the one below indicating that the public is RAPIDLY moving toward favoring Gay Marriage. The comparison is drawn with abortion where opposition has remained static for 35 years. But the voters actions on Gay Marriage tell a different story. It is largely explained by the red state-blue state dichotomy.

MAJORITY FINDS BEING GAY MORALLY ACCEPTABLE: 54% consider gay or lesbian relations morally acceptable, according to numbers released by Gallup this morning. Public acceptance of gay/lesbian relations as morally acceptable grew slowly but steadily from 38% in 2002 to 56% in 2011 and is now holding at the majority level. http://bit.ly/JWor81

CB that with all due respect though is the US. A land where creationism is taught at schools and Fred Phelps can picket a soldiers funeral with slogans saying "Die all fags", I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. What is needed perhaps is a mandate from the UN to show that this barring of rights is not acceptable at all in any way shape or form. As per my post in America being a land of contradicitons, how can they call themselves a land of the free? Irelnad is slowly changing, I do admit to believing that gay pride doesnt help me one bit, it never represents me and can paint us in a bad light (over all its a unifying force though). Whether something like being gay is immoral or not, that is entirely subjective. Gay marriage should just be brought in, its non negotiable. :)

[Andrew49]

A lot of talk recently on gay marriage after North Carolina in the US rejected it out right opting to define marriage as being between a man and a woman . This move in itself is an affront to the dignity of the LGBT community in North Caroline but got me thinking about gay marriage in a general context and especially here in Ireland. Ireland has as you know , civil partnership which confers most entitlements to a smae sex partner but stops short at adoption and there is an issue around inheritance. To this end I propose the government introduce gay marriage or indeed something akin to gay marriage as marriage to me has religious connotations. There is support here in Ireland from all corners of society for such a move and such a move should be granted no questions asked. As I pointed out on another thread, some rights are non negotiable and are not subjective as society sees it that way. Why should others dictate to me how I live my private life? From most quarters the religious institutions in Ireland and the right in Ireland have consistently undermined or made efforts to bring anything in by stifling it.

Correct me if I'm wrong fluffy but the last time North Carolina passe laws on marriage it was to ban inter-racial marriage!

I think Ireland will accept gay marriage and that Fr. Quinn and Mother Rectoress O'Brien will get to write a few columns in the Irish Times about the holy sanctity of the sacrament of marriage ... and all jazz. Looking forward to that immensely.

[eamo]

There's a school of opinion that says that as as the constitution doesn't define what marriage is, no amendment is needed to introduce Same Sex Marriage.

Verey easy for a sensible (brave?) government to introduce the legislation, and allow it to be tested be the supreme court either by way of Presidenntial referal ar legal challenge.

But I still don't see what aspect of Gay Marriage would be "repugnant to the constitution" as it stands.

I see the problem, yep, right there, see I highlighted it, yep that's the problem. We got to get one of them and fit it. Could take some time and there aint no telling how it will react when it is installed, that's a problem with these "government" components. Once there installed they seem to do what they damm well please.
Welllll it wont be a quick job and it sure aint going to be cheap, but if you want we will try, mind you ya could always stick with the what ya have.
Dam well right!! it WAS good enough for our Grand parents so it should still work.
Right so. Let me know if it does not work out and we aill see what we can do.
All the best now, and good luck.

[fluffybiscuits]

Correct me if I'm wrong fluffy but the last time North Carolina passe laws on marriage it was to ban inter-racial marriage!

I think Ireland will accept gay marriage and that Fr. Quinn and Mother Rectoress O'Brien will get to write a few columns in the Irish Times about the holy sanctity of the sacrament of marriage ... and all jazz. Looking forward to that immensely.

I didnt know that ! Just googled it there and rightly enough it came up with this .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/amendment-one-gay-marriage-ban-shocking-fact_n_1503716.html

Ireland will I hope enact it eventually but its going to take time for it to change. There is still that generational gap there as was evident in the church clamouring to shut the priests up .

[Andrew49]

“Contrary to myth - [and pronouncements by David Quinn et al] - Christianity’s concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has constantly evolved as a concept and ritual. Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the “Office of Same-Sex Union” (10th and 11th century), and the “Order for Uniting Two Men” (11th and 12th century).

These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiated in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.
”


Article (http://anthropologist.livejournal.com/1314574.html)

GoodReads (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/719105.Same_Sex_Unions_in_Premodern_Europe)

[fluffybiscuits]

Article (http://anthropologist.livejournal.com/1314574.html)

GoodReads (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/719105.Same_Sex_Unions_in_Premodern_Europe)

And with that then marriage should evolve rather than stay in the stale cess pool of Catholicism . THe religious slant is interesting as this was something that was pushed on to it , you would swear it was solely a Christian thing this marriage business....

[Andrew49]

And with that then marriage should evolve rather than stay in the stale cess pool of Catholicism . THe religious slant is interesting as this was something that was pushed on to it , you would swear it was solely a Christian thing this marriage business....

It's the smug attitude of Quinn on this and many many many other issues that riles me. He's a serious reader and exponent of 'Catholic Social teaching' - and that wrecked so many communities on this island. But it gave his cult the malign control of people.

Marriage has existed since time immemorial ... his brand of Catholicism is post the Great Hunger of the 1840s