Bertie Ahern to be Expelled from Fianna Fáil

[musashi]

David Davin-Power just announced (RTE1) that Ahern is going to be expelled from the Fianna Fáil party. This follows the release of the Mahon Report this morning.

[Spectabilis]

Ouch!

[Andrew49]

David Davin-Power just announced (RTE1) that Ahern is going to be expelled from the Fianna Fáil party. This follows the release of the Mahon Report this morning.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/blaughs.jpg

[musashi]

I wonder if Bertie knows?

[TotalMayhem]

Someone's in hurry to get rid of him?

Sic transit gloria

[musashi]

Taoiseach Enda Kenny (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0322/breaking32.html) said an early reading of the Mahon tribunal revealed “corrupt practices” among a number of politicians and “sets out in very direct fashion the conduct of the former taoiseach” Bertie Ahern.

Mr Kenny said the Government had referred the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), the Garda Commissioner, the Revenue Commissioners and the Standards in Public Office Commission.

He said the report had also been referred to Fine Gael’s internal disciplinary committee to deal with any findings in relation to party personnel.

whoa, is it my imagination or does this smell like a prosecution in the pipeline?

[Andrew49]

Reminiscent - a bit - of Dermot Aherne's speech in 2009, in the wake of Murphy & Ryan, about clerical collars or bishops hats not protecting abusers. Turns out in 2009 Aherne prosecuted 15,700 people for not having a TV licence or defaulting on fines.

[DCon]

With all his pensions and personal wealth in de safe, I dount he cares

[Kid Ryder]

whoa, is it my imagination or does this smell like a prosecution in the pipeline?

Doubt it. There are precedents which must not be set. We li'l folks might come to expect them in future times, and why would Oireland Inc. stop the production of brown envelopes golden eggs?

[Kid Ryder]

I expect MeHole will be expelling himself from De Parthy too. He was part and parcel of that scene as well as Da Bert. Didn't they have an acquaintance with a Mr. O'Callaghan of Cork in common?

[PaddyJoe]

The Moriarty report was referred to the DPP and the Garda Commissioner on March 23, 2011.
Heard anything about it recently?
I wouldn't hold my breath on this one either.;)

[TotalMayhem]

Mr Kenny said the Government had referred the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), the Garda Commissioner

Are these the same people who are looking into the goings on at Anglo?

[Andrew49]

whoa, is it my imagination or does this smell like a prosecution in the pipeline?

Well, we can all hope and pray ...

Well, we can hope ...

Well, what can we do?

The Mahon report is basically about a spat between the political and social elite in this country, with the legal elite acting as a sort of referee. No actions will flow from it. Papers will be shuffled in a Garda office somewhere and a statement will be issued to this effect.

Meanwhile if any of the rest of us try to make our feelings known - say like driving a truck up to the gates of the Leinster Corrupt Payments House - Gardai would be all over us like cobwebs on Bertie's wallet.

[PaddyJoe]

Are these the same people who are looking into the goings on at Anglo?
All 20 or so of them which was down to about 14 last time I looked;)

[Shaadi]

King Rat has officially been exposed as a liar. Great stuff, at least the sly devious scumbag can't be lauded anymore by his former cheerleaders.

This crowd are just as capable of corruption, FG are likely to be in power for a decade at least and who thinks they are squeaky clean.

[Slim Buddha]

King Rat has officially been exposed as a liar. Great stuff, at least the sly devious scumbag can't be lauded anymore by his former cheerleaders.

This crowd are just as capable of corruption, FG are likely to be in power for a decade at least and who thinks they are squeaky clean.

I dont think they are squeaky clean. I just dont detect the overt criminal intent in the way I did with the PD-FF regime.

[Dr. FIVE]

dat's dat

[PaddyJoe]

Where's Bertie? Not at home by the looks of things;)
https://twitter.com/#!/FergalTodayFM/status/182843852548341760/photo/1

[Newsy]

David Davin-Power just announced (RTE1) that Ahern is going to be expelled from the Fianna Fáil party. This follows the release of the Mahon Report this morning.

So, how exactly is this going to be done?

Called to FF headquarters, (whereever that is) and de-throned?
Written to and told?
Proclaimed on every news broadcast?


What are your suggestions for the most appropriate form of LEAVING or being told to go!!!!

[jmcc]

If Martin doesn't do it quickly, he will be following him. This is just phase of the moon thinking but I think that there is a good opportunity for an FF coup against Martin and those from the Ahern era. If some FFers don't take the opportunity to remove Martin and other few Ahernites, then FF is finished as a party.

Regards...jmcc

[TotalMayhem]

What are your suggestions for the most appropriate form of LEAVING or being told to go!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/DNsdb.jpg

The expulsion of Patrick Bartholomew Ahern from the Fianna Fáil party.

[Newsy]

http://i.imgur.com/DNsdb.jpg

The expulsion of Patrick Bartholomew Ahern from the Fianna Fáil party.

Very, very appropriate.....:D:D:D

[gfmurphy101]

I'd say Martin thinks that Bertie does'nt have any dirt on him!! otherwise he would nt expel him, hope he is wrong though, love to see them tear each other apart!
p.s will Enda expel Denis O Brien from every state organized event as well too?????

[Newsy]

I'd say Martin thinks that Bertie does'nt have any dirt on him!! otherwise he would nt expel him, hope he is wrong though, love to see them tear each other apart!
p.s will Enda expel Denis O Brien from every state organized event as well too?????

Indeed. The dudu may well hit the fan.

I can't see ahern going with his tail between his legs.

But isn't it such a huge disappointment that a huge amount of money and 15 years of an inquiry has to happen before the removal of a political figure happens.

Integrity truly needs to be restored in our political class.

[Shaadi]

I dont think they are squeaky clean. I just dont detect the overt criminal intent in the way I did with the PD-FF regime.I wouldn't suggest that they are anywhere near as corrupt as FF. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I see no sign that they are intent on cracking down on white collar crime, they now have the means to enrich a lot of influential people in this country. As a party that has used the services of Mr Lowry to fund raise millions, there's plenty to be sceptical about in regards to their trustworthiness.

Ask yourself why they are so keen to see FF survive?

[Griska]

The Moriarty report was referred to the DPP and the Garda Commissioner on March 23, 2011.
Heard anything about it recently?
I wouldn't hold my breath on this one either.;)

The threat of court will hang over people for not paying the household charge though.
Political own-goal as it may be.

[antiestablishmentarian]

All those who voted for him when they knew what he was like, all 42% of you, today you should hang your heads in shame and can your faux outrage. It was pretty clear in 2007 this man was unfit for public office, that his testimony and past dealings were highly questionable, yet the fact so many still continued to vote for him makes me pessimistic and a bit apathetic about this- sure it's good to have the truth about the goings on with Quarryvale (and hat tip to Trevor Sargent, credit where it's due) but the fact so many people voted for him despite knowing he was untrustworthy means it's highly unlikely anything of lasting value to Irish democracy will be learned from this sorry saga.

[Shaadi]

All those who voted for him when they knew what he was like, all 42% of you, today you should hang your heads in shame and can your faux outrage. It was pretty clear in 2007 this man was unfit for public office, that his testimony and past dealings were highly questionable, yet the fact so many still continued to vote for him makes me pessimistic and a bit apathetic about this- sure it's good to have the truth about the goings on with Quarryvale (and hat tip to Trevor Sargent, credit where it's due) but the fact so many people voted for him despite knowing he was untrustworthy means it's highly unlikely anything of lasting value to Irish democracy will be learned from this sorry saga.Many of the 58% that voted for some other parties probably had no problem with his actions other than that they were committed by an FFer.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Many of the 58% that voted for some other parties probably had no problem with his actions other than that they were committed by an FFer.

That's an excellent point.

[Holly]

With all his pensions and personal wealth in de safe, I dount he cares
Still, what a price to pay ... to be kicked out of The Republican Party after bringing peace to Ireland. No amount of money could compensate for this shame.
Many in his position would simply up stakes and relocate to Marbella.

[goatstoe]

Any word from Bertie cheerleaders like Harris, Waters, Terry Prone et al. They'll all desert the rat now that he has no favours to bestow.

[Shaadi]

Still, what a price to pay ... to be kicked out of The Republican Party after bringing peace to Ireland. No amount of money could compensate for this shame.
Many in his position would simply up stakes and relocate to Marbella.Such a tosser, he had as much money and prestige as anyone would need to be content. Then he's supposed to be so mean that the actual spending of money is unlikely to bring him any great joy.

[TotalMayhem]

Many in his position would simply up stakes and relocate to Marbella.

... and flip some burgers.

http://i.imgur.com/adMTS.jpg

[DCon]

Many in his position would simply up stakes and relocate to Marbella.

Bound to be a few Celtic Tiger millionaire developers down there who owe the bert a few favours

[Griska]

Many in his position would simply up stakes and relocate to Marbella.

Marbella.
Which is found on the Costa del Crime, right?;)

[musashi]

With all his pensions and personal wealth in de safe, I dount he cares

I doubt the DPP, CAB, the Revenue will feel the same way.

[musashi]

Doubt it. There are precedents which must not be set. We li'l folks might come to expect them in future times, and why would Oireland Inc. stop the production of brown envelopes golden eggs?

See above.
There are a number tax evasion implications, there's the tacit allegation that he received bribes...I believe that the DPP and Revenue will pursue findings within the Report.

There are a great number of public representatives who gave sworn testimony that has been found to be untrue. That's perjury.

[musashi]

The Moriarty report was referred to the DPP and the Garda Commissioner on March 23, 2011.
Heard anything about it recently?
I wouldn't hold my breath on this one either.;)

I disagree; there is substantial evidence of perjury, it is itemized throughout the Report. As I recall, perjury is a crime. Ergo, the DPP must prosecute.

That means Ahern, Flynn, Richardson, Dunlop, Reynolds, O'Callaghan and all the sordid rest of them lied under oath.

[musashi]

Three of the four former leaders of Fianna Fail implicated in this Report.

[Andrew49]

Coming to a bookseller near you soon

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/BERTIEBOOKSIGNS.jpg

[musashi]

Any word from Bertie cheerleaders like Harris, Waters, Terry Prone et al. They'll all desert the rat now that he has no favours to bestow.

The spin-doctors have all evaporated. The Drumcondra Mafia has made a good showing.

[Holly]

Marbella.
Which is found on the Costa del Crime, right?;)
Costa del Plomo, Griska.

[C. Flower]

Reminiscent - a bit - of Dermot Aherne's speech in 2009, in the wake of Murphy & Ryan, about clerical collars or bishops hats not protecting abusers. Turns out in 2009 Aherne prosecuted 15,700 people for not having a TV licence or defaulting on fines.

Wonderful....!

[C. Flower]

Well, we can all hope and pray ...

Well, we can hope ...

Well, what can we do?

The Mahon report is basically about a spat between the political and social elite in this country, with the legal elite acting as a sort of referee. No actions will flow from it. Papers will be shuffled in a Garda office somewhere and a statement will be issued to this effect.

Meanwhile if any of the rest of us try to make our feelings known - say like driving a truck up to the gates of the Leinster Corrupt Payments House - Gardai would be all over us like cobwebs on Bertie's wallet.


Well said.

[Griska]

Costa del Plomo, Griska.

Qué?

[DCon]

Why was M Martin not asked about his personal knowledge or experience (if any) of corruption, when he was on the 6 one news.

Hard to believe he has been in FF for so long and not heard of or seen the occasional envelope change hands

[Lá an Lúbáin]

" Is it too late to give this to da ...da... da..... VdP or maybe i'd better hang on to it..restock the Tolka..ah ..ah"

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww52/artrenny/dabert.jpg

[Holly]

Qué?

Costa del Plomo = Coast of Lead (as in bullets)

[Andrew49]

The only picture in existence of Bertie behind bars.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/bertie44.jpg

[Andrew49]

Wonderful Tweet from Dara O'Briain - wonder if any of the T-Shirts still exist?

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/dara.png

And on #vinb tonight.

[DCon]

Martin


I now wish to outline my response to the report.

(i) Fianna Fáil Councillors

The planning process in Dublin was, as previously described by one of my colleagues, a debased currency. As Judge Mahon notes in his report, that debasement was not caused solely by the councillors of any one party. It is up to each party to respond appropriately. Those Fianna Fáil councillors identified as taking corrupt payments for making planning decisions not only debased the planning process, they also debased our party and helped undermine public trust in local politics. I condemn their actions unreservedly.

It is clear from the report of the Tribunal that there are grounds to consider the expulsion of a number of individuals who remain members of the party. These are GV Wright, Finbar Hanrahan and Don Lydon. None are still public representatives, but their conduct was unbecoming a member of Fianna Fáil and consequently I am proposing motions of expulsion against those who remain members of the party and against whom negative findings have been made in this report. We are writing to these members informing them of this decision.

(ii) Padraig Flynn

The Report has found that a former Minister, Padraig Flynn, accepted for himself a sum of IR£50,000 that was handed over to him in his ministerial office by the developer Tom Gilmartin. It was wholly inappropriate for any person to give a Minister a payment of IR£50,000 (€63,500), irrespective of how it was described. It is reprehensible that Padraig Flynn should have taken it for his own use. That behaviour on his part was a disgrace and betrayed the trust that the Irish electorate had placed in him.

I, together with the party’s officers with whom I have met and consulted, believe the conduct of Padraig Flynn constitutes conduct unbecoming a member of Fianna Fáil. Accordingly, I will propose a motion to expel him as a member of Fianna Fáil at the special meeting of National Executive. We are writing to Mr Flynn to inform him of this decision.

(iii) Bertie Ahern

Although the central allegation against Bertie Ahern was not sustained, the evidence confirmed by the Tribunal and its comments relating to him are extremely serious. The receipt by a senior office holder of large amounts of money which a sworn Tribunal has held is of unclear origins and the failure to give any credible explanation requires an unequivocal response. No matter how high a member rises within the party and in elected office, they still carry a duty of trust for the members of Fianna Fáil and for the people who elected them.

The report records that Bertie Ahern gave a significant amount of evidence to the Tribunal which, in the opinion of the Tribunal, was untrue.

It is a matter of profound personal and professional regret to see confirmed in this Report the extent to which Bertie Ahern fell short of the standard of personal behaviour which is expected of the holders of high office. In the manner in which he received this money while holding high office and in the giving of rejected evidence to a sworn tribunal Bertie Ahern betrayed the trust placed in him by this country and this party.

I, together with the party’s officers with whom I have met and consulted, believe the conduct of Bertie Ahern as outlined in the evidence made public through the Tribunal and the findings of the Tribunal constitute conduct unbecoming a member of Fianna Fáil. Accordingly, I will propose a motion to expel him as a member of Fianna Fáil at the special meeting of National Executive. We are writing to Mr Ahern to inform him of this decision.

(iv) Fianna Fáil organisation in Dublin Central

The Officer Board decided to recommend to the Árd Comhairle that there should be a root and branch review of the organisation in Dublin Central.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/8193/#.T2uYgMDQQ5w.twitter

[musashi]

Bertie Ahern is toast.
Fianna Fail will move to expell a slew of members tomorrow.
For "conduct unbecoming" lol

[jmcc]

Bertie Ahern is toast.
Fianna Fail will move to expell a slew of members tomorrow.
For "conduct unbecoming" lolSo what's the probability that Martin himself will be expelled?

Regards...jmcc

[Baron von Biffo]

Bertie Ahern is toast.
Fianna Fail will move to expell a slew of members tomorrow.
For "conduct unbecoming" lol

The charge used to dump O'Malley as I recall.

PDs II on the way? :)

[Kid Ryder]

The charge used to dump O'Malley as I recall.

PDs II on the way? :)

Marvellous Mickey McDowell and the feckin' Bar Lobby loyalists? Well scary, but utterly unlikely.

[Spectabilis]

I fear it could be something much more right wing than the PD's, but it will be a lonely minority for that.

[jmcc]

I fear it could be something much more right wing than the PD's, but it will be a lonely minority for that.
If they promise to TWEP Ahern and the rest of the FFkers then I think that they could get a lot more support than people think.

Regards...jmcc

[Spectabilis]

Forgive me , jmcc - what's TWEP?

[5intheface]

Forgive me , jmcc - what's TWEP?

Terminate with extreme prejudice.

[musashi]

So what's the probability that Martin himself will be expelled?

Regards...jmcc

Not a chance, he too canny for that.
Fianna Fail is dissolving before my eyes.

[Ah Well]

Fianna Fail is dissolving before my eyes.

One can only hope ... altho the cynical but realistic side of me tends to think they ain't going away just yet

FF ... ehhhhh dats right ..... infacta .... deh party is everything

http://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/aldmtd1.jpg

http://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/backingbertie.jpg

[jmcc]

Not a chance, he too canny for that.
Fianna Fail is dissolving before my eyes.Callery's last words on Primetime were ominous for Martin. Just a bit of amateur Kremlinology but I think that a move is on against Martin, and a few other FFers. They are not going to stop with Ahern. It is the best chance for them to do it and they have to do it now if they want to have any kind of a recovery.

Regards...jmcc

[Dr. FIVE]

From the archives


https://p.twimg.com/AooAliUCQAEef-t.jpg

[Ah Well]

Callery's last words on Primetime were ominous for Martin. Just a bit of amateur Kremlinology but I think that a move is on against Martin, and a few other FFers. They are not going to stop with Ahern. It is the best chance for them to do it and they have to do it now if they want to have any kind of a recovery.

Regards...jmcc

Bring it on ... a bag of cats FF style ... compulsory viewing

http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

[Spectabilis]

Terminate with extreme prejudice.

Gosh:eek::eek:

I think they are terminating themselves by attrition.

[Ah Well]

Gosh:eek::eek:

I think they are terminating themselves by attrition.

No harm in lending a helping hand

http://waterman99.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/push-off-cliff.jpg?w=468

[Kid Ryder]

Not a chance, he too canny for that.
Fianna Fail is dissolving before my eyes.

And Santy will be along in a little over nine months time...:rolleyes:

[musashi]

I dont think they are squeaky clean. I just dont detect the overt criminal intent in the way I did with the PD-FF regime.

Maybe that's 'cause FG have only been in power for a year. After 3 decades they might get lazy and complacent like FF.

[musashi]

One can only hope ... altho the cynical but realistic side of me tends to think they ain't going away just yet

FF ... ehhhhh dats right ..... infacta .... deh party is everything

http://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/aldmtd1.jpg

http://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/backingbertie.jpg

Firing a few old fogies is just a cynical exercise in PR.

[Ah Well]

Firing a few old fogies is just a cynical exercise in PR.

No harm in reminding people of their roots when it comes to voting time tho ;)

[Apjp]

whoa, is it my imagination or does this smell like a prosecution in the pipeline?

The sheer anger of the Irish people demands a scapegoat. Otherwise all of Oireland Inc. is eventually in trouble. They know if they don't toss a big fish our way we will go after them. Also think of the political hay for the govt. that jailed Bertie ahern and a few bankers.

[Ah Well]

Raise a glass to one of the last socialists

You de man

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Nf5FfHNth64/SctrziZg_RI/AAAAAAAAEb4/XUFHDY3GajA/s320/Bertie.jpg

[musashi]

Raise a glass to one of the last socialists

You de man

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Nf5FfHNth64/SctrziZg_RI/AAAAAAAAEb4/XUFHDY3GajA/s320/Bertie.jpg

TV3 is discussing the expulsion of 3 councillors, Flynn and Ahern.

[musashi]

The sheer anger of the Irish people demands a scapegoat. Otherwise all of Oireland Inc. is eventually in trouble.

+1
In the cold light of day, a prosecution would allay public disquiet concerning "systemic" corruption.

[Ah Well]

Micheál Martin defending Bertie 27.2.2008 - YouTube

[Spectabilis]

The sheer anger of the Irish people demands a scapegoat. Otherwise all of Oireland Inc. is eventually in trouble. They know if they don't toss a big fish our way we will go after them. Also think of the political hay for the govt. that jailed Bertie ahern and a few bankers.

But apjp, you are always demanding a scapegoat. There will be no-one left to hang from the lamp-posts. We are in trouble anyway and a scapegoat will not improve our lot one whit.

How about a political solution?

[musashi]

No harm in reminding people of their roots when it comes to voting time tho ;)

Bertie is looking at a hefty legal bill, probably over 1M.

[Kid Ryder]

Bertie is looking at a hefty legal bill, probably over 1M.

Da Bert is good for that, easy. Remember this is a man who hasn't put his hand in his own pocket for nearly 20 years, and went so far as to play ultra-hardball (that was why 'no bank account') with the ex-wife he could never bring himself to divorce (being the good cattalick and all he was) during their separation court proceedings in the early '90s.

[TotalMayhem]

Bertie is looking at a hefty legal bill, probably over 1M.

Coillte forests have just gone down in price by roughly €1m.

[Ah Well]

Bertie is looking at a hefty legal bill, probably over 1M.

Collins - FF raised approx €1M last year :D

[musashi]

Da Bert is good for that, easy. Remember this is a man who hasn't put his hand in his own pocket for nearly 20 years, and went so far as to play ultra-hardball (that was why 'no bank account') with the ex-wife he could never bring himself to divorce (being the good cattalick and all he was) during their separation court proceedings in the early '90s.

My sincerest wish: For them to face charges of corruption.


Coillte forests have just gone down in price by roughly €1m.

I hope that the Coilte swindle will be exposed for the robbery of State/Social assets that it plainly is and Ahern's role in this nascent pyramid scheme be also condemned.


Collins - FF raised approx €1M last year :D

Unlike FG who don't receive any corporate donations and are whiter than white.

[Kid Ryder]

My sincerest wish: For them to face charges of corruption.



I hope that the Coilte swindle will be exposed for the robbery of State/Social assets that it plainly is and Ahern's role in this nascent pyramid scheme be also condemned.



Unlike FG who don't receive any corporate donations and are whiter than white.

You expect so much from the puppet masters of demockery, Grasshopper. Disappointment is always the first mile on the long journey to wisdom.;)

[musashi]

You expect so much from the puppet masters of demockery, Grasshopper. Disappointment is always the first mile on the long journey to wisdom.;)

http://www.saintvespaluus.com/Kung_F.png


Grasshopper: But Master, what if disappointment is only an ongoing process in the ever-flowing duality of disillusionment and enlightenment, which manifests in the body politic as a Nation's collective consciousness. A continuum rather than a quantifiable end in and of itself?

[Kid Ryder]

http://www.saintvespaluus.com/Kung_F.png


Grasshopper: But Master, what if disappointment is only an ongoing process in the ever-flowing duality of disillusionment and enlightenment, which manifests in the body politic as a Nation's collective consciousness. A continuum rather than a quantifiable end in and of itself?

For certain the transient feeling of disappointment plays the role in the ever-flowing duality you describe, yet the thoughts and ideas provoked by such feelings once validated by experience and critical evaluation have tremendous persistence even in entities so ephemeral and fickle as this 'collective consciousness' you speak of. And remember Grasshopper, no journey is complete or even started without the taking of those first steps...;)

[Ah Well]

Never mind d-d-dem doubters maurice ... infacta its a game of two hafs

http://www.irishleftreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/a1_a_cantonaanddecoontz.jpg

[musashi]

For certain the transient feeling of disappointment plays the role in the ever-flowing duality you describe, yet the thoughts and ideas provoked by such feelings once validated by experience and critical evaluation have tremendous persistence even in entities so ephemeral and fickle as this 'collective consciousness' you speak of. And remember Grasshopper, no journey is complete or even started without the taking of those first steps...;)

Of course Master, I see ;)

[Ah Well]

Now there's an article heading for ya

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfididauidkf/rss2/

[musashi]

Now there's an article heading for ya

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfididauidkf/rss2/

Lulz, A LOW LIFE IN HIGH OFFICE :D:D:D:D


IF Bertie Ahern’s tortuous testimony to the Mahon corruption probe had been live on TV, he would have been politically dead in the water within hours.

Ahern's performances at the Tribunal should be broadcast in the public interest.

[musashi]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17484110


Irish political party Fianna Fail has said it will seek to expel its former leader and prime minister Bertie Ahern in the wake of the Mahon Tribunal

Mr Ahern said he had never "received a corrupt payment".

However, the party said the findings regarding Mr Ahern constituted "conduct unbecoming a member of Fianna Fail".

[musashi]

A great article:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfididauidkf/rss2/


Money, often in cash and always large denominations, seemed to come easily to Mr Ahern in the mid-1990s, but convincing answers as to the source of that money has proved rather more difficult to locate since.

How other democracies must have looked at Ireland in disgust as our then taoiseach squirmed in the witness box of a corruption probe — and after finally resigning, branded the judges "low lifes".

Bertie may not know what truth is, but now we do — he’s a liar.

It is Ahern who is revealed as the low life in high office.

A truer word was never said.

[Sidewinder]

Now there's an article heading for ya

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfididauidkf/rss2/


The questions now remain: Who gave him the sterling and dollars? Why? And, most importantly, did they expect anything in return for it from the then finance minister?

Hmmm, let's see now, why would anyone want to furnish the #2 in FF and heir-apparent with large sums of Sterling in 1993 and 1994, leading up to the infamous moment when Bertie pocketed the Duggan note, and thus sealed Albert's fate? Leading to the installation of the much more compliant and much less bolshie John Bruton as Taoiseach at a delicate point in certain proceedings? Yeah, I wonder, I've been wondering that for a long, long time.

[DCon]

Da brudder, Noel, thinks Martin is being too hasty..

[Slim Buddha]

Bertie Ahern is toast.
Fianna Fail will move to expell a slew of members tomorrow.
For "conduct unbecoming" lol

"Conduct unbecoming"? More like "bringing the game into disrepute"

[DCon]

"Conduct unbecoming"? More like "bringing the game into disrepute"

I wonder how many Dail reps would be throwing stones if they were 100% honest.

of course, being caught is the main crime.

[Griska]

Hmmm, let's see now, why would anyone want to furnish the #2 in FF and heir-apparent with large sums of Sterling in 1993 and 1994, leading up to the infamous moment when Bertie pocketed the Duggan note, and thus sealed Albert's fate? Leading to the installation of the much more compliant and much less bolshie John Bruton as Taoiseach at a delicate point in certain proceedings? Yeah, I wonder, I've been wondering that for a long, long time.

People are not in the habit of throwing money around without the expectation of something in return.
Especially people with money, funnily enough.

[musashi]

Hmmm, let's see now, why would anyone want to furnish the #2 in FF and heir-apparent with large sums of Sterling in 1993 and 1994, leading up to the infamous moment when Bertie pocketed the Duggan note, and thus sealed Albert's fate? Leading to the installation of the much more compliant and much less bolshie John Bruton as Taoiseach at a delicate point in certain proceedings? Yeah, I wonder, I've been wondering that for a long, long time.

The cynicism in response to this is discouraging.

[musashi]

"Conduct unbecoming"? More like "bringing the game into disrepute"

"Venal and widespread corruption that dominated government for 3 decades."
I can see no evidence whatsoever that this culture has changed one jot.

[goatstoe]

Never mind d-d-dem doubters maurice ... infacta its a game of two hafs

http://www.irishleftreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/a1_a_cantonaanddecoontz.jpg


Ball burst for Bertie.

[C. Flower]

Hmmm, let's see now, why would anyone want to furnish the #2 in FF and heir-apparent with large sums of Sterling in 1993 and 1994, leading up to the infamous moment when Bertie pocketed the Duggan note, and thus sealed Albert's fate? Leading to the installation of the much more compliant and much less bolshie John Bruton as Taoiseach at a delicate point in certain proceedings? Yeah, I wonder, I've been wondering that for a long, long time.

Is there any evidence at all on this? Was this the "horse race winnings" ?

And why would "they" pay him in Sterling ?

[musashi]

Is there any evidence at all on this? Was this the "horse race winnings" ?

And why would "they" pay him in Sterling ?

My dear CF, he lied and lied and lied.
He didn't win it on the horses ergo it was a bribe, just like Gilmartin said.

[Sidewinder]

My dear CF, he lied and lied and lied.
He didn't win it on the horses ergo it was a bribe, just like Gilmartin said.

He also lied about the reason why he "didn't have a bank account" (no, no indeed, he didn't have a bank account, he had feckin dozens of them!).

He claimed he didn't have a bank account cos he was trying to hide his earnings from the ex-wife. But he also claims that his only job has ever been "to serve de peeple", he didn't have any nixers when he was a lowly TD and Minister for Finance, and was in fact so on his uppers on his meagre TD salary alone that sympathetic friends organised a whipround for him to cheer him up. His salary as a TD and Minister would be a matter of public record, how on earth could he hide it from the marriage courts? No, like everything with Bertie, the excuses make absolutely no f***ing sense.

Now let's think about this. What could possibly be so bad, so awful, such a terrible truth, that scumbag Ahern thinks "I was attempting to screw over the ex-wife financially" is a much better story that nobody will mind so much? In this day and age "I was offered a few grand by a builder but I never did nuttin in return" would hardly be much of a shock revelation, now would it?

But Ahern and his friends went to, and are still going to, quite extraordinarily ludicrous lengths to cover up and conceal where the money was coming from. Or what it was for.

[musashi]

Joe Burke, Bertie's mate, is on Marian Finucane spinning an unbelievable tale.
Seems like they're going to lose St Lukes, the constuency office.

[musashi]

He also lied about the reason why he "didn't have a bank account" (no, no indeed, he didn't have a bank account, he had feckin dozens of them!).

He claimed he didn't have a bank account cos he was trying to hide his earnings from the ex-wife. But he also claims that his only job has ever been "to serve de peeple", he didn't have any nixers when he was a lowly TD and Minister for Finance, and was in fact so on his uppers on his meagre TD salary alone that sympathetic friends organised a whipround for him to cheer him up. His salary as a TD and Minister would be a matter of public record, how on earth could he hide it from the marriage courts? No, like everything with Bertie, the excuses make absolutely no f***ing sense.

Now let's think about this. What could possibly be so bad, so awful, such a terrible truth, that scumbag Ahern thinks "I was attempting to screw over the ex-wife financially" is a much better story that nobody will mind so much? In this day and age "I was offered a few grand by a builder but I never did nuttin in return" would hardly be much of a shock revelation, now would it?

But Ahern and his friends went to, and are still going to, quite extraordinarily ludicrous lengths to cover up and conceal where the money was coming from. Or what it was for.

We're talking about a serial liar here, him and his Drumcondra mafia, LIARS, proven.
I consider everthing this deceiver says as untruthful.

[Griska]

He's resigned, apparently.
I'll find a link.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0324/mahon.html

[ang]

Didn't think Bertie was the type to be dictated to.

Everything on his terms

[Griska]

In an article written for tomorrow's Sunday Independent newspaper, Mr Ahern said the tabling of a motion to expel him "deeply saddened" him.


He stresses that this is a political decision, and not in any way an admission of wrongdoing.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0324/mahon.html

Talk about jumping before you're pushed.

[PaddyJoe]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0324/mahon.html

Talk about jumping before you're pushed.
Would you not think he'd go on to have a chat with Marian tomorrow? :confused:

[TotalMayhem]

I can hear her already, "We need Bertie Ahern". :D

[musashi]

The cursed one, Brendan O'Connor, just suggested that Bertie should stop bull$hitting us and hand back his pension.

[PaddyJoe]

The cursed one, Brendan O'Connor, just suggested that Bertie should stop bull$hitting us and hand back his pension.
Not a member of FF any more from what I understand from tomorrow's papers:)

[musashi]

True to form he jumped before he was pushed, same as 2008 when he resigned as Taoiseach.

[PaddyJoe]

Bertie Ahern resigns from Fianna Fáil

[Spectabilis]

That last link is not working for me PJ. If you could have a look thanks.

[musashi]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0324/breaking68.html

[PaddyJoe]

That last link is not working for me PJ. If you could have a look thanks.

Try this one:D
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0324/mahon.html

[Spectabilis]

Thanks PJ. Perfect. :)

Thanks Musashi. Also perfect:)

[DCon]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0324/mahon.html

Talk about jumping before you're pushed.

Is there a shortgae of Bertie apologists in the Sindo? Why get himself to write the tripe?


In his article, Mr Ahern said

[Kid Ryder]

Is there a shortgae of Bertie apologists in the Sindo? Why get himself to write the tripe?
It's another digout, this time for his anticipated post-Mahon ahem, cough, 'legal expenses'...:rolleyes:

[DCon]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0324/mahon.html

Talk about jumping before you're pushed.


Owen O'Callaghan never gave me a red cent and not a shred of evidence was produced, after years of inquiry, to give even an ounce of credence to this dirty, vicious allegation.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/move-to-quit-party-i-love-is-sad-but-no-signal-of-guilt-3060633.html

Few questions I would like to put to Ahern:

Did he ever give you a pound (either British or Irish), or a dollar? Obviously a high flyer like you would not deal in cents or pennies.

Did he ever give any currency, of any denomination, to somebody else who passed it on to you?

[Spectabilis]

Bertie's findings on the findings:

a grave injustice
inaccurate and unsubstantiated report
erroneous, unwarranted and unjust.
this dirty, vicious allegation.


So just tell us where the money came from then?

[musashi]

Bertie's findings on the findings:

a grave injustice
inaccurate and unsubstantiated report
erroneous, unwarranted and unjust.
this dirty, vicious allegation.


So just tell us where the money came from then?

I just finished reading a friend's Sindo.
What a goddamned crock of s**te, Bertie Ahern has been whistling the same tune for years now, the judges don't believe him, I don't believe him, only a semi-retarded twonk would believe this anti-statesman.
This man should not be allowed to sully our newspapers, tv and radio with any more of his lies.

[Kid Ryder]

I just finished reading a friend's Sindo.
What a goddamned crock of s**te, Bertie Ahern has been whistling the same tune for years now, the judges don't believe him, I don't believe him, only a semi-retarded twonk would believe this anti-statesman.
This man should not be allowed to sully our newspapers, tv and radio with any more of his lies.

I dunno 'bout that. The more he displays his brass neck, the more people want to lynch him. One day he might provoke us li'l folks a biteen too much and we do exactly that. It could happen. I live in hope...

[DCon]

Martin could borrow some Shakespeare for his next speech, Bertie's exit from FF being his funeral


I come to bury Bertie, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Bertie. The noble Calleary
Hath told you Bertie was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Bertie answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Calleary and the rest--
For Calleary is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Bertie's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Calleary says he was ambitious;
And Calleary is an honourable man.
He hath brought many developers home to St Luke's
Whose ransoms did the Fianna Fail coffers fill:
Did this in Bertie seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Bertie hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Calleary says he was ambitious;
And Calleary is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the plinth
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Calleary says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Calleary spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Bertie,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

[PaddyJoe]

Bertie's mate Joe Burke was out spinning to Marian on his behalf yesterday. Nice piece of work is Mr Burke:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/joe-burke-was-only-minutes-from-death-1265013.html

[Apjp]

A bit sick today so not going to college. But I've been reading up on the news about Bertie. There's a very naiive one in the Irish Central that assumes Irish kleptocrats can be arrested.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Former-Prime-Minister-Bertie-Ahern-could-face-jail-time-after-Tribunal-corruption-allegations-sent-to-police-144136105.html

Claims on the basis of a sun survey that Ahern may well get 7 years in jail for perjury. I'm not sure lying to a tribunal is illegal.

[PaddyJoe]

Bertie is in Nigeria speaking at a development conference:)
http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/wheres-bertie-game-ends-as-hes-found-hiding-in-nigeria-0022660-1

[C. Flower]

Bertie is in Nigeria speaking at a development conference:)
http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/wheres-bertie-game-ends-as-hes-found-hiding-in-nigeria-0022660-1

Martin has allowed Ahern to resign rather than be expelled from FF: his resignation from FF by letter (email?) has been confirmed.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ahern-party-resignation-confirmed-3061315.html

It remains to be seen what form Ahern's "challenge" to the Tribunal will take. I would have thought if he thought its processes were not legitimate, he would have successfully challenged them long ago.

[musashi]

Martin has allowed Ahern to resign rather than be expelled from FF: his resignation from FF by letter (email?) has been confirmed.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ahern-party-resignation-confirmed-3061315.html

It remains to be seen what form Ahern's "challenge" to the Tribunal will take. I would have thought if he thought its processes were not legitimate, he would have successfully challenged them long ago.

O'OCallaghan, the developer who Tom Gilmartin claimed paid Ahern bribes, said he would be seeking a judicial review.
I don't doubt that Ahern and O'OC can afford to hire the best legal representation.

[Baron von Biffo]

Martin has allowed Ahern to resign rather than be expelled from FF: his resignation from FF by letter (email?) has been confirmed.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ahern-party-resignation-confirmed-3061315.html

What else could he have done? Ahern has the same constitutional right to freedom of 'disassociation' as everyone else.

[BARNEYKX]

King Rat has officially been exposed as a liar. Great stuff, at least the sly devious scumbag can't be lauded anymore by his former cheerleaders.

This crowd are just as capable of corruption, FG are likely to be in power for a decade at least and who thinks they are squeaky clean.


All tarred with the same brush

[Baron von Biffo]

On FrontLine now.

[Baron von Biffo]

Colm O'Gorman was a PD candidate in 2007. For their entire political life the PDs supported Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern and Cowen.

Zero credibility on this issue.

[Baron von Biffo]

Forget Bertie, Frank McDonald is off on his favourite topic, the scandal of culchies being allowed to live in houses.

[DCon]

Des Peelo is a great apologist

He wants a suspect corrupt politician named on RTE with no evidence..

[Baron von Biffo]

Des Peelo is a great apologist

He wants a suspect corrupt politician named on RTE with no evidence..

Doing so would allow McDonald and Power to live up to the image of themselves journalists all seem to have, that they're fearless messengers of truth.

[Baron von Biffo]

Ah sh!te, O'Gorman is shouting my mantra - 'We have law but it's not being applied.' Now I'm on the same side as a PD :(

[DCon]

FFer in the crowd blames the whole nation. Cites an alleged granny picking his alleged fiver from the street and running off with it as proof

[PaddyJoe]

FFer in the crowd blames the whole nation. Cites an alleged granny picking his alleged fiver from the street and running off with it as proof
I'm shocked, absolutely shocked:D

[Baron von Biffo]

FFer in the crowd blames the whole nation. Cites an alleged granny picking his alleged fiver from the street and running off with it as proof

Was he in Athlone at the time? :)

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00777/Mary-O_Rourke_tombu_777229t.jpg

[DCon]

Was he in Athlone at the time? :)

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00777/Mary-O_Rourke_tombu_777229t.jpg

More chance it was Bertie in drag

[Baron von Biffo]

That guy any relation of yours Paddy Joe? :)

[PaddyJoe]

That guy any relation of yours Paddy Joe? :)
One of the mountain McGillycuddys I think. Fierce hard to shut them up when they get going:D

[Baron von Biffo]

McGrath has the look of a widows dog about him - indolent and overfed.

[PaddyJoe]

People are 'incredulous' not 'evidence' Michael. I'm hearing that a lot lately.

[Baron von Biffo]

Will Kelly continue to support FG if they don't expel Olivia Mitchell?

[Baron von Biffo]

People are 'incredulous' not 'evidence' Michael. I'm hearing that a lot lately.

It's the elephant in the room that kicked the can down the road that caused a disconect.

[Baron von Biffo]

Is that a bedspread or a tie that Higgins is wearing? :eek:

[Spectabilis]

That guy any relation of yours Paddy Joe? :)


Respec' please Baron. Our PJ is, I suspect, one of the Reeking Macgillicuddys. A fine pedigree, with a coat of arms an' all. Can the von Biffos say as much? :)

http://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/Magillicuddy2Heber.php

[Baron von Biffo]

Respec' please Baron. Our PJ is, I suspect, one of the Reeking Macgillicuddys. A fine pedigree, with a coat of arms an' all. Can the von Biffos say as much? :)

http://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/Magillicuddy2Heber.php

Dash it woman the housemaids at Schloss Biffo have better pedigrees than that.

[Baron von Biffo]

This 'grab the pensions' stuff is very dangerous populism.

[PaddyJoe]

Dash it woman the housemaids at Schloss Biffo have better pedigrees than that.
Always good to have a bishop or two in the lineage;)

[Baron von Biffo]

The late Brian Lenihan a man of the utmost integrity? :eek:

He was a lying drunk.

[fluffybiscuits]

The late Brian Lenihan a man of the utmost integrity? :eek:

He was a lying drunk.

lol we cant libel the dead :D ;)

[Baron von Biffo]

Always good to have a bishop or two in the lineage;)

Second sons need a career.

[DCon]

lol we cant libel the dead :D ;)

the truth is not libel

[fluffybiscuits]

the truth is not libel

Oh I know ! :p

[BARNEYKX]

Bertie should get back into the fridge and stay there till he is stiffed

[Stanley 2]

With Mick Wallace not allowing public access to his VAT/Rev records, which would tell very quickly how innocent he is, perhaps it is time for journos to ask Bertie Ahern once more if he holds a valid TCC and if issues which came up at Mahon are now dealt.

Mahon cost the State money and we are entitled to see the results, it is very obvious Bertie held several false TCC's based on his evidence, his Rev records should be made public and he be brought to Court for false Declarations.

The Rev cannot be allowed to hide away from very public issues, particularly as Bertie is supposed to have paid 70k on account, enough of this tripe, make public the records or is Bertie going to sit it out and wait for the Appeals Comm, his bro-in-law, to deliver the same verdict as Charlie got.

[musashi]

With Mick Wallace not allowing public access to his VAT/Rev records, which would tell very quickly how innocent he is, perhaps it is time for journos to ask Bertie Ahern once more if he holds a valid TCC and if issues which came up at Mahon are now dealt.

Mahon cost the State money and we are entitled to see the results, it is very obvious Bertie held several false TCC's based on his evidence, his Rev records should be made public and he be brought to Court for false Declarations.

The Rev cannot be allowed to hide away from very public issues, particularly as Bertie is supposed to have paid 70k on account, enough of this tripe, make public the records or is Bertie going to sit it out and wait for the Appeals Comm, his bro-in-law, to deliver the same verdict as Charlie got.

Bertie is chief among those I believe should be held accountable for their tax misdemeanors but like I said, throw a stone in the Dáil chamber you'll hit one.

Ergo there is no accountability in the Dáil.

[Baron von Biffo]

Bertie is chief among those I believe should be held accountable for their tax misdemeanors but like I said, throw a stone in the Dáil chamber you'll hit one.

Ergo there is no accountability in the Dáil.

In a democracy it's the duty of the voters to hold politicians to account. We have been derelict in that duty to date and there's no sign that we're going to change.

[Slim Buddha]

In a democracy it's the duty of the voters to hold politicians to account. We have been derelict in that duty to date and there's no sign that we're going to change.

In a democracy it is the duty of politicians to obey the law. Many of them don't. Fianna Fail used to get around this problem by changing the laws they did not like to the extent that white collar crime, particularly fraud, corruption and misuse of public office, are basically legitimised.

Simples!

[Baron von Biffo]

In a democracy it is the duty of politicians to obey the law. Many of them don't. Fianna Fail used to get around this problem by changing the laws they did not like to the extent that white collar crime, particularly fraud, corruption and misuse of public office, are basically legitimised.

Simples!

Not every politician would agree with that. We have members of the current Dail actively promoting illegality in relation to taxation and environmental protection.

Breaking the law has never been an impediment to political success in this country because we as citizens and voters don't hold our politicians to account.

[Slim Buddha]

Not every politician would agree with that. We have members of the current Dail actively promoting illegality in relation to taxation and environmental protection.

Breaking the law has never been an impediment to political success in this country because we as citizens and voters don't hold our politicians to account.

There is a certain truth to what you say. But is this not a case of the political calsses thinking to themselves "We'll be as blatantly corrupt and thieving as we can and see how much of this they will tolerate". And we still tolerate it because nobody cares very much, do they?

[Stanley 2]

There is a certain truth to what you say. But is this not a case of the political calsses thinking to themselves "We'll be as blatantly corrupt and thieving as we can and see how much of this they will tolerate". And we still tolerate it because nobody cares very much, do they?



As long as people like Wallace and Lowry are tolerated in the Dail, nothing will change.

Wallace is a recent addition but Lowry has been sitting there for years bolding it out to all comers, Fine Gael thought their version of Pontious Pilate years ago by kicking him out of the Party was enough, it wasn't but now as Govt they should find a way of finishing the job.

The Tipp voters know no better and probably laughing at the troubles they can cause the mighty, through Lowry.

They should also take action against Ahern, withold his pension/expenses until the TCCs issues are sorted out, the Govt control the Rev, let's not forget.

[C. Flower]

With Mick Wallace not allowing public access to his VAT/Rev records, which would tell very quickly how innocent he is, perhaps it is time for journos to ask Bertie Ahern once more if he holds a valid TCC and if issues which came up at Mahon are now dealt.

Mahon cost the State money and we are entitled to see the results, it is very obvious Bertie held several false TCC's based on his evidence, his Rev records should be made public and he be brought to Court for false Declarations.

The Rev cannot be allowed to hide away from very public issues, particularly as Bertie is supposed to have paid 70k on account, enough of this tripe, make public the records or is Bertie going to sit it out and wait for the Appeals Comm, his bro-in-law, to deliver the same verdict as Charlie got.

The silence on all sides on the Daíl has been deafening.

The same with Lowry.

Every TD is looking at his/her history and wondering how much it would stand up to scrutiny.

There are two kinds of corruption in the Daíl - one is the illegal kind and the other the legally-voted salaries and allowances.

Where is the noise coming from to put an end to the latter? Sinn Fein ? The ULA ? I don't think so.

Even the approach to the salaries of higher civil servants has been corrupted, as Ministers salaries are bench marked to them. So we had Lenihan as one of his last acts saving these salaries and pensions from the cuts that other civil servants had to put up with.

It is up to organisations outside the Dail to campaign on this - the organisations opposing cuts, or opposing unfair taxes.

[Stanley 2]

The silence on all sides on the Daíl has been deafening.

The same with Lowry.

Every TD is looking at his/her history and wondering how much it would stand up to scrutiny.

There are two kinds of corruption in the Daíl - one is the illegal kind and the other the legally-voted salaries and allowances.

Where is the noise coming from to put an end to the latter? Sinn Fein ? The ULA ? I don't think so.

Even the approach to the salaries of higher civil servants has been corrupted, as Ministers salaries are bench marked to them. So we had Lenihan as one of his last acts saving these salaries and pensions from the cuts that other civil servants had to put up with.

It is up to organisations outside the Dail to campaign on this - the organisations opposing cuts, or opposing unfair taxes.


No-one is going to upset the norm from the inside, they will put the Gardai on the streets to break up any protests.

Merkel should force certain conditions on them for starters halve the salaries of TDs and top civil servants, halve the TD numbers and dissolve the Seanad, have a proper go at quangos and their political appointees, list is endless.............

[Baron von Biffo]

There is a certain truth to what you say. But is this not a case of the political calsses thinking to themselves "We'll be as blatantly corrupt and thieving as we can and see how much of this they will tolerate". And we still tolerate it because nobody cares very much, do they?

What it boils down to is our failure in this country to develop an understanding of citizenship and civic duty. We don't see ourselves as equal citizens of a democratic republic. Everything else - the low moral and intellectual calibre of our politicians, the arbitrary enforcement of the law, the a la carte approach to taxes - stems from that.

[Baron von Biffo]

No-one is going to upset the norm from the inside, they will put the Gardai on the streets to break up any protests.

Merkel should force certain conditions on them for starters halve the salaries of TDs and top civil servants, halve the TD numbers and dissolve the Seanad, have a proper go at quangos and their political appointees, list is endless.............

None of that would make a blind bit of difference. Calling for fewer politicians on crap wages is just an appeal to begrudgery.

[Slim Buddha]

What it boils down to is our failure in this country to develop an understanding of citizenship and civic duty. We don't see ourselves as equal citizens of a democratic republic. Everything else - the low moral and intellectual calibre of our politicians, the arbitrary enforcement of the law, the a la carte approach to taxes - stems from that.


Well, these days we clearly are not equal citizens of a democratic republic. We are not equal and this has ceased to be anything like a democratic republic.

[Baron von Biffo]

Well, these days we clearly are not equal citizens of a democratic republic. We are not equal and this has ceased to be anything like a democratic republic.

That's our own fault. Our constitution makes clear that we are sovereign. We have the power to change things but we can't be arsed to make the effort.

[Stanley 2]

None of that would make a blind bit of difference. Calling for fewer politicians on crap wages is just an appeal to begrudgery.


Gotta start at the top, call a halt to non-resident for tax but actual residents, the likes of O'Reilly, O'Brien, Desmond,Smurfit, how many others, seem to have too much power/influence, alleged hints of Desmond/McManus having a say on the night of the Guarantee is unreal, does it mean their mates on the currency markets Tabor/Lewis/Smith also have alleged influence, perhaps gambling on Irish Govt bonds.

Start with these guys and work down, if they want to leave, let them, change the Rules.

[Stanley 2]

Well, these days we clearly are not equal citizens of a democratic republic. We are not equal and this has ceased to be anything like a democratic republic.



Kicking out FF was a good start, but they now need to be eradicated, Kenny should to shut down all their influnce starting with political Appointees, example Gerry bleedin Collins at the DAA, what exactly is his contribution...........

[Slim Buddha]

That's our own fault. Our constitution makes clear that we are sovereign. We have the power to change things but we can't be arsed to make the effort.

Our constitution is nothing more than an aspirational document these days. It has been bypassed.

[Slim Buddha]

Kicking out FF was a good start, but they now need to be eradicated, Kenny should to shut down all their influnce starting with political Appointees, example Gerry bleedin Collins at the DAA, what exactly is his contribution...........

The proscription of Fianna Fail is a necessary step for Ireland to have any future at all. As long as FF exists, it constitutes a threat to the security of the state.

[Baron von Biffo]

Gotta start at the top, call a halt to non-resident for tax but actual residents, the likes of O'Reilly, O'Brien, Desmond,Smurfit, how many others, seem to have too much power/influence, alleged hints of Desmond/McManus having a say on the night of the Guarantee is unreal, does it mean their mates on the currency markets Tabor/Lewis/Smith also have alleged influence, perhaps gambling on Irish Govt bonds.

Start with these guys and work down, if they want to leave, let them, change the Rules.

Change the rules by all means, and having changed them break with precedent and enforce them but first make sure the changes are substantial rather than cosmetic.

This government said it would change things but what has it actually done? Took mercs off ministers, reduced the number of TDs in the next Dail and propose to hold a referendum on abolishing the Seanad. Pure froth. No substance whatsoever.

The sad thing is we allow ourselves to be impressed by such stunts when we should be revolted at having a government of petty tyrants led by a simian imbecile and propped up by unprincipled office-seekers.

[Baron von Biffo]

Our constitution is nothing more than an aspirational document these days. It has been bypassed.

No it hasn't. We have been derelict in our stewardship of it but the constitution is still ours.

Unlike America where the constitution belongs to the politicians, in Ireland it's the people who are sovereign. When we're not vigilant we throw away our own protections as we did in the judges pay referendum. When we allow ourselves to be bullied and lied to as we did over the stability treaty we dilute our sovereignty.

We have to start taking responsibility for the choices we make.

[Baron von Biffo]

The proscription of Fianna Fail is a necessary step for Ireland to have any future at all. As long as FF exists, it constitutes a threat to the security of the state.

The obsession with FF is part of the problem.

[Slim Buddha]

The obsession with FF is part of the problem.

The existence of FF is a major part of the problem.

[Baron von Biffo]

The existence of FF is a major part of the problem.

Had FG or Lab or SF been in power as long as FF was they would have been the same.

We don't have a culture of citizenship and we don't have a culture of law. Put any party into that ecosystem and it will fester.

[Slim Buddha]

Had FG or Lab or SF been in power as long as FF was they would have been the same.

We don't have a culture of citizenship and we don't have a culture of law. Put any party into that ecosystem and it will fester.

I am sure Labour, FG and SF would be bad if they had hold of the levers of power as long as FF had. But it would have manifested itself differently. Fianna Fail has corruption and misuse of government and state institutions as part of its DNA. It existed solely to enrich its friends at the expense of the state. It is clearly an anti-Irish party in a way none other has before or since. It has to be destroyed before Ireland recovers. No time like the present to kill it off.

[Shaadi]

I am sure Labour, FG and SF would be bad if they had hold of the levers of power as long as FF had. But it would have manifested itself differently. Fianna Fail has corruption and misuse of government and state institutions as part of its DNA. It existed solely to enrich its friends at the expense of the state. It is clearly an anti-Irish party in a way none other has before or since. It has to be destroyed before Ireland recovers. No time like the present to kill it off.

There is now no way to kill it off. The incompetence of the FG presidential candidate selection and the similarity of FG/LAB policy to FF policy has give the FF party breathing space. They will increase their seat total at the next GE. They will easily match Labours 2011 share of the vote without matching their seat total.

FFs future is in FGs hands, it's in safe hands. FGs arrogance and their lack of empathy is always able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. The phoney war between FG and FF will end in 2016, when there will exist only one means to continue the status quo. The sharing of power by the brothers in crime.

[Baron von Biffo]

I am sure Labour, FG and SF would be bad if they had hold of the levers of power as long as FF had. But it would have manifested itself differently. Fianna Fail has corruption and misuse of government and state institutions as part of its DNA. It existed solely to enrich its friends at the expense of the state. It is clearly an anti-Irish party in a way none other has before or since. It has to be destroyed before Ireland recovers. No time like the present to kill it off.

The only difference between them is opportunity. We need to change the culture, not the faces.

[Slim Buddha]

The only difference between them is opportunity. We need to change the culture, not the faces.

Well, Fianna Fail are the ones who committed treason, the others have not yer got that far. So while the others we can regard with varying degrees of contempt, the feelings one has for actual traitors is for each individual to experience themselves.

[Baron von Biffo]

Well, Fianna Fail are the ones who committed treason, the others have not yer got that far. So while the others we can regard with varying degrees of contempt, the feelings one has for actual traitors is for each individual to experience themselves.

Slim I'm starting to wonder if some FFer asked you for her money back :D

[musashi]

There is a certain truth to what you say. But is this not a case of the political calsses thinking to themselves "We'll be as blatantly corrupt and thieving as we can and see how much of this they will tolerate". And we still tolerate it because nobody cares very much, do they?

Bingo slim, to care passionately about so cracked a mirror would carry too much cost.

[Slim Buddha]

Slim I'm starting to wonder if some FFer asked you for her money back :D

No, it is just after I conducted a long and exhaustive analysis of what FF did to the country, I can only conclude that the only good FFer is a dead one.

[Stanley 2]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/bertie-ahern-blasted-for-slur-on-former-taoiseach-16191401.html



Classy Bertie goes on the attack against the dead Garrett, someone in FG like the rotweiller, Hogan, should reply giving him both barrels otherwise Bertie will consider silence a victory.

[culmore]

Bertie not worth a reply anymore he is a nobody

[Stanley 2]

Bertie not worth a reply anymore he is a nobody


Ahern would have you think exactly that but any chance he gets to boost his "Peacemaker of NI" crown, he is in like (Pee) Flynn.

He is trying to pull strokes in China with his old mates, Ballymore and Treasury, well away from the eyes and ears of Nama and at the same time is the largest political pensioner in the State.

Off with his head, I say, or at least his billicks.

Wonder if he has cleared up his Tax Clearance Certs yet, coming from Mahon several are incorrect Declarations.

[PaddyJoe]

Wonder what he said about Cowen in that interview?

[toxic avenger]

I think it's great. Ahern needs to do things like this more often - just so that everyone is reminded what a total f*ckwit he is.

[PaddyJoe]

I think it's great. Ahern needs to do things like this more often - just so that everyone is reminded what a total f*ckwit he is.

Indeed. People forget far too quickly.

[Baron von Biffo]

Indeed. People forget far too quickly.


That's why he picked Cowen as his successor.

[PaddyJoe]

That's why he picked Cowen as his successor.

Using the "always find a bigger ********" principle:)

[C. Flower]

Last week a Nigerian taxi driver told me that Bertie is still messing around with their oil industry. Any news on this ?