Traveller Children Denied an Education

[C. Flower]

The very first of the "austerity" cuts made by Fianna Fail was cuts in the allowance for books for Traveller children.

Specialist support teachers for Traveller children have also been cut.

Now the High Court has confirmed that schools can legally discriminate in favour of settled local people, even though this disadvantages Traveller children.

Education and literacy is a big leap for Traveller children to take and the livelihoods of their community have traditionally not required them.

They endure bullying and discrimination by the settled community when they try to join the school system.

Now, disadvantage is backed by the Courts.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mother-fails-in-legal-challenge-to-schools-admissions-policy-538456.html

[d.vader]

Well, I suppose it fits in with the logic of the state subsidising fee-charging schools - this has been going on for years and is an issue which by and large has been kept carefully below the radar. Wasn't Ho Chi Quinn educated in one of them?
On a slightly different tack, I'm just reading a book on the history of (the old) Cork Prison at the moment and a mid-nineteenth century report gave the following figures for the prison population in one day [and I quote]: debtors 8; untried 7; tried 23;vagrants 3;various 110. This was made up of 65 men and 86 women. The heading "various" includes police offences, drunkenness, larceny, hooliganism and disorderly behaviour. [end quote]
An 1856 report relating to the City Gaol stated that 76 boys were whipped that year.
The point here is that the state (or society?) punishes and has always punished the poor and the powerless. I seem to remember reading somewhere that a huge porportion of the modern day Irish prison population has serious literacy problems. Anyone starting to join the dots here?
A final point - why are we surprised that the state was forced to assume the debts of the banks and the speculators? Logically, the effects were bound to be passed to the powerless.

[disability student]

I know some parents of deaf kids took to the high courts over in odds with Dept of Education policy on deaf education. Policy on deaf education were controversial and discriminatory. Mind you, in the past committe was run by state appointed people- Prof Conroy, Gleeson the barrister et al . That is gone now replaced with insider civil servant and one outsider.

Traveller in Galway told me that we were in the same boat when it comes to discrimination and closed minds etc.

[Baron von Biffo]

We had a thread here on the circuit court leg of the Stokes case.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=8962

If I might be forgiven for quoting myself, I think it's worth restating what I said in that thread - The boy involved did not suffer unfavourable treatment because he was a traveller. The criteria treat traveller children the same as Polish children or Offaly Children or, to use the old fashioned term, bastards.

The High Court agreed with that today if DriveTime reporting is to be believed.

[Baron von Biffo]

SixOne now.

[Baron von Biffo]

The spokesman from the traveller movement is completely ignoring the fact that this policy affects other people equally with travellers.

[Baron von Biffo]

Oh dear, he wants 'positive' discrimination.

[Andrew49]

So it's OK to discriminate against one set of children as long as the discrimination also applies to other sets of children.

These children won't be exposed to the ethos of the psychotic, and sexually dysfunctional Christian Brothers, and its high time all children in the State were protected from them.

[C. Flower]

So it's OK to discriminate against one set of children as long as the discrimination also applies to other sets of children.

These children won't be exposed to the ethos of the psychotic, and sexually dysfunctional Christian Brothers, and its high time all children in the State were protected from them.

There is that. But I wonder what happened to them ? Children turned away from the Limerick Second Level system were mainly dead when checked up on a few years later. Life without literacy now is no joke. "All the children..cherished equally"

[C. Flower]

The spokesman from the traveller movement is completely ignoring the fact that this policy affects other people equally with travellers.

True. It also affects asylum seekers and anyone "outside the loop."

Great.

[jpc]

True. It also affects asylum seekers and anyone "outside the loop."

Great.

And the middle class even,
40 kids were turned down.
What card can they play?

[homer]

I haved only heard some radio reports of this case but I understand after giving priority to those whose parents or siblings were in that school, that the remaining places were decided by lottery amongst all other candidates.

Thus imho travelers did not suffer any discrimination as travellers. The High Court were right to dismiss.

If this action was supported by Pavee Point it is another example travellers advocates wasting tax payers' money.

[C. Flower]

And the middle class even,
40 kids were turned down.
What card can they play?

The first Judge agreed it was discriminatory. To draw all places by lottery would not be discriminatory.

[Spectabilis]

I had not realised that a lottery was held for remaining places. In law, the decision may well have beeen the right one.

In justice, well there's another story.

[Baron von Biffo]

So it's OK to discriminate against one set of children as long as the discrimination also applies to other sets of children.

There were 40 more applicants than there were places, some means of deciding who got the available places was necessary. No matter what method was chosen it would result in 40 disappointed applicants.

The court had to decide if the applicant in this case was unfairly discriminated against because he was a traveller and it found that he wasn't.

[Baron von Biffo]

True. It also affects asylum seekers and anyone "outside the loop."

Great.

What loop?

There's no loop or circle or secret handshake or any other conspiracy theory stuff. It's a transparent system.

If the family had moved from Dublin or Athlone he would have been in the same position. Likewise if his birth cert had a blank over 'Father's name'.

[Baron von Biffo]

The first Judge agreed it was discriminatory. To draw all places by lottery would not be discriminatory.

And what would you say to the mother who's oldest son was already a pupil but who's second kid had to travel 20 miles to another school?

Tough sh!t love, luck of the draw?

[Kid Ryder]

And the middle class even,
40 kids were turned down.
What card can they play?

They can do what they always do - buy themselves some relief. Making sure that the educations of the poor are stillborn is a useful way to cut down competition with their kids on the college points system. And putting up fees just adds to it. The well-off will grumble, but will still pay out the money. Working-class kids will just write off their own chances of affording third level education. 'Tis an ill wind that blows nobody good.

[C. Flower]

And what would you say to the mother who's oldest son was already a pupil but who's second kid had to travel 20 miles to another school?

Tough sh!t love, luck of the draw?

Exactly. Why not ? Luck of the draw. That's equal opportunity for you. Equality would be having enough place for everyone.

[Baron von Biffo]

Exactly. Why not ? Luck of the draw. That's equal opportunity for you.

No that's just plain daft. You want to put one family to the trouble of getting kids to schools 20 miles apart, to face extra expense through not being able to hand down uniforms, books etc., 2 sets of 'voluntary contributions' and all sorts of other hardships just to allow a random chance to someone with no connection to the school.

Even a curmudgeonly bachelor with no kids can see how that's wrong.


Equality would be having enough place for everyone.

And it would be a hospital bed for everyone and proper services regardless of where you lived but the Faerie Godmother was mauled by the Celtic Tiger so we don't have that. Until we do we have to deal with reality.

[C. Flower]

No that's just plain daft. You want to put one family to the trouble of getting kids to schools 20 miles apart, to face extra expense through not being able to hand down uniforms, books etc., 2 sets of 'voluntary contributions' and all sorts of other hardships just to allow a random chance to someone with no connection to the school.

.

My heart bleeds.

[Baron von Biffo]

My heart bleeds.

The new caring left.

[C. Flower]

The new caring left.

:D

Fair is fair.

You are only arguing in favour of continuing and concentrating privilege.

[Baron von Biffo]

:D

Fair is fair.

You are only arguing in favour of continuing and concentrating privilege.

No, I'm saying that the people who had to make unenviable decisions did so in a way that was open, fair and decent.

Sloganeering about continuing and concentrating privilege would go down well at a meeting of one of the myriad ULA factions or a draughty tent on Dame St. But they are places of great luxury - Nothing said in them has any consequence in the real world.

Those who have to make decisions that affect the lives of others don't have that luxury.

[C. Flower]

No, I'm saying that the people who had to make unenviable decisions did so in a way that was open, fair and decent.

Sloganeering about continuing and concentrating privilege would go down well at a meeting of one of the myriad ULA factions or a draughty tent on Dame St. But they are places of great luxury - Nothing said in them has any consequence in the real world.

Those who have to make decisions that affect the lives of others don't have that luxury.

The issue, so far as I can see is fairness in how children get access to school places. You have made a case that it would be inconvenient for some for a fair system to be introduced. That is not the same as making a case that it would be unfair.

The way that decision is made is not the property of a select body of decision makers. It is a state decision, for which we are all responsible.

[Baron von Biffo]

The issue, so far as I can see is fairness in how children get access to school places. You have made a case that it would be inconvenient for some for a fair system to be introduced. That is not the same as making a case that it would be unfair.

What you proposed was allocating scarce public resources on an entirely random basis. There's nothing fair or reasonable about that.


The way that decision is made is not the property of a select body of decision makers. It is a state decision, for which we are all responsible.

So much for having decisions made at the lowest effective level. You'd need to make a pretty powerful argument to persuade me of the merits of having the Dail debate what school every child in the country should attend.

[Sam Lord]

No that's just plain daft. You want to put one family to the trouble of getting kids to schools 20 miles apart, to face extra expense through not being able to hand down uniforms, books etc., 2 sets of 'voluntary contributions' and all sorts of other hardships just to allow a random chance to someone with no connection to the school.


Well, whatever about siblings what about the ones who got in because their parents went to that school? Seems downright discriminatory to me.

[Baron von Biffo]

Well, whatever about siblings what about the ones who got in because their parents went to that school? Seems downright discriminatory to me.

As I said in the other thread, to discriminate means to choose between alternatives. The question is whether it's unfair to use that criterion to discriminate and I don't think it is.

Breaking down the generational relationship with schools would damage the communities that the school serves. It would also ultimately damage the school because it would dry up much funding and support from the local community.

It surprises me that the one selection criterion that is clearly unjust hasn't merited a mention at all. I'm referring to the priority status of children with Catholic parents.

[Sam Lord]

Breaking down the generational relationship with schools would damage the communities that the school serves. It would also ultimately damage the school because it would dry up much funding and support from the local community.


There is no evidence to support this. They are just assertions on your part.

I guess "blow ins" are not considered part of the community in your neck of the woods.

[MauriceColgan]

Many of those 'uneducated' Traveller children will be turning up in your road in a BMW jeep offering you all sorts of services..."For just a thousand Euros,.. sir"..." Okay then sir.....er... 150 Euros"

They will still, very unfortunately, have the reading age of a child... ..........but the business acumen of a Rothschild!

[Baron von Biffo]

There is no evidence to support this. They are just assertions on your part.

Sometime when I have nothing better to do I must undertake a formal survey to establish whether or not people are more or less likely to support services they or their families are likely to benefit from.

Perhaps it will show that I'm way out of touch with the modern world and that parents are putting in many hours a week organising fund-raisers for schools 20 miles distant.


I guess "blow ins" are not considered part of the community in your neck of the woods.

I'm a blow in in my neck of the woods.

[C. Flower]

Many of those 'uneducated' Traveller children will be turning up in your road in a BMW jeep offering you all sorts of services..."For just a thousand Euros,.. sir"..." Okay then sir.....er... 150 Euros"

They will still, very unfortunately, have the reading age of a child... ..........but the business acumen of a Rothschild!

Some families trade carpets, some are in the horse business, some do tarmac and paving, some work for the civil service and local authorities. I know one who is a solicitor. People who don't read have to hold everything in the head, and it is good for the brains. But the disadvantages of illiteracy are increasing all the time as society becomes more bureaucratised and office based.

Traveller girls still mainly marry very young, a few do their Leaving. Boys, where there is a family trade, tend to be trained into it young by their fathers.
Literacy didn't use to be a big deal - a lot of small farmers of the older generation don't have more than basics, but now it is getting very difficult for anyone who can't read or write.

The first cut that was made by Fianna Fail (at the time they tried to take the medical cards from some pensioners) was the book allowance for Travellers, Traveller's teaching supports have been cut. Now they get a Court judgement that gives a free pass to any school to put them bottom of the queue - and it can be hard enough, anyway, for them to get in.

Travellers have to get through a lot of barriers to become literate, in their own communities/families and from settled people. The supports they were getting for their childrens' education cost small money, and were an investment for society.

It is unbelievably mean to have taken them away.

[fluffybiscuits]

Some families trade carpets, some are in the horse business, some do tarmac and paving, some work for the civil service and local authorities. I know one who is a solicitor. People who don't read have to hold everything in the head, and it is good for the brains. But the disadvantages of illiteracy are increasing all the time as society becomes more bureaucratised and office based.

Traveller girls still mainly marry very young, a few do their Leaving. Boys, where there is a family trade, tend to be trained into it young by their fathers.
Literacy didn't use to be a big deal - a lot of small farmers of the older generation don't have more than basics, but now it is getting very difficult for anyone who can't read or write.

The first cut that was made by Fianna Fail (at the time they tried to take the medical cards from some pensioners) was the book allowance for Travellers, Traveller's teaching supports have been cut. Now they get a Court judgement that gives a free pass to any school to put them bottom of the queue - and it can be hard enough, anyway, for them to get in.

Travellers have to get through a lot of barriers to become literate, in their own communities/families and from settled people. The supports they were getting for their childrens' education cost small money, and were an investment for society.

It is unbelievably mean to have taken them away.

The need for literacy skills cannot be emphasised enough, especially as we move to a world where there is internet and everything is done through technology. In news item in the IT recently it was mentioned that people whom have literacy issues and who receive targeted training are three times more likely to gain employment.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0613/1224317819114.html

Grant cuts to the travelling community would severly impact their chances of finding employment in the future.