Fiscal Treaty designed to avoid an Irish referendum-confirmed by German EU Minister-Micheal D referral to Co of State?

[PaddyJoe]

So we now have confirmation of the suspicions that the government were negotiating to ensure that there would be no obvious trigger for a referendum in the Treaty:

EUROPE’S NEW fiscal treaty was specifically crafted to minimise the prospect of a referendum in Ireland, The Irish Times has learned.
As Fianna Fáil joined other Opposition groups in demanding a referendum, a high-level European official said elements of the pact were written with the objective of avoiding a public vote in Ireland.
I see the official is echoing Leo's language on how referendums are not very democratic:

On the challenge facing the Government in any referendum, the official said it was “perfectly well” known that the answer the public gave would not be the answer to the question posed. “So it is nothing to do with democracy.”
While it is not absolutely clear which parts of the treaty were written to suit the Government, Irish officials are known to have sought scope to adopt strict new limits to debt and deficits in legislation rather than through the Constitution. This was achieved late in the negotiations when Germany dropped its insistence on constitutional measures.
So much for the denials from government representatives over the last couple of weeks.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0201/1224311050007.html

[Ah Well]

So we now have confirmation of the suspicions that the government were negotiating to ensure that there would be no obvious trigger for a referendum in the Treaty:

I see the official is echoing Leo's language on how referendums are not very democratic:

So much for the denials from government representatives over the last couple of weeks.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0201/1224311050007.html

Merkozy likes this ...

[riposte]

So we now have confirmation of the suspicions that the government were negotiating to ensure that there would be no obvious trigger for a referendum in the Treaty:

I see the official is echoing Leo's language on how referendums are not very democratic:

So much for the denials from government representatives over the last couple of weeks.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0201/1224311050007.html

Politicans telling lies ... you'd never credit it.

[Kid Ryder]

There's something about this statement:

On the challenge facing the Government in any referendum, the official said it was “perfectly well” known that the answer the public gave would not be the answer to the question posed. “So it is nothing to do with democracy.”
that reminds me somehow of this statement:

The truth is still the truth, even if it only gets 100 votes.
For those who don't know, the latter was a slogan of the fascists in the Spanish Civil War.
That is the mentality we're facing now, as far as I can make sense out of the former.

[Ah Well]

That is the mentality we're facing now

The mentality is not that of the people ... be they left, right or non inclined

It's called the EU for short

[Ah Well]

You can also take this another way .... viz the Badgering and Bullying of the Irish Electorate has now commenced in anticipation of a Referendum being required - they have their 25 Nation back slaps (the Czechs might sidle up to the door half way thru the party)

Press Onslaught has commenced

Merkozy is contemplating Flights to help us decide

[PaddyJoe]

There's something about this statement:

that reminds me somehow of this statement:

For those who don't know, the latter was a slogan of the fascists in the Spanish Civil War.
That is the mentality we're facing now, as far as I can make sense out of the former.

It's a incredible thing for a supposedly high ranking EU official to say and demonstrates that these people can't even be bothered to hide behind ambiguity and coded language any more.
Even the lip service to diplomatic language is completely gone.

[Ah Well]

It's a incredible thing for a supposedly high ranking EU official to say and demonstrates that these people can't even be bothered to hide behind ambiguity and coded language any more.
Even the lip service to diplomatic language is completely gone.

It's called Merkozy ... oops sorry I meant arrogance

And don't expect anything except a yes in the event of an Irish Referendum

It's inbred ... or maybe a genetic or a servitude or an apathetic thing

[TotalMayhem]

If I want your opinion, I'll gladly give it to you...

[Ah Well]

If I want your opinion, I'll gladly give it to you...

Spoken like a true Eurocrat :)

[TotalMayhem]

Spoken like a true Eurocrat :)

Welcome to MY world. ;)

[Ah Well]

Welcome to MY world. ;)

Nah fleeting visit only :eek:... off now again to my Bothán on Sceilig Mhichíl

[Sidewinder]

Anyone who is actually genuinely surprised at the anti-democratic and authoritarian mindset of the Eurocrats really has not been paying attention for the last 12 years or more. This isn't a recent departure, there's been an increasingly ugly stench coming off the entire project certainly at least as far back as the Lisbon Agenda in 2000. Some of the older sceptics point to the Amsterdam Treaty in 1998 as the point when it really should have become glaringly obvious to anyone who wanted to see that this whole thing was heading down a dark and disturbing road, but for me personally it was the Lisbon Agenda that set ye olde Sidey Senses a-tingling.

[C. Flower]

Anyone who is actually genuinely surprised at the anti-democratic and authoritarian mindset of the Eurocrats really has not been paying attention for the last 12 years or more. This isn't a recent departure, there's been an increasingly ugly stench coming off the entire project certainly at least as far back as the Lisbon Agenda in 2000. Some of the older sceptics point to the Amsterdam Treaty in 1998 as the point when it really should have become glaringly obvious to anyone who wanted to see that this whole thing was heading down a dark and disturbing road, but for me personally it was the Lisbon Agenda that set ye olde Sidey Senses a-tingling.

I was forced into a school debate on the EU maaany years ago. Was struck by the gulf between popular perception and the reality. If people had been told that it would mean much more expensive food, and break up and privatisation of the very considerable and well-run public infrastructure and assets of the late 20th century, would they have voted for it at any stage?

There was a natural and rational wish to build relationships with neighbours. Not a vote for neoliberalism.

And after all these years, the little things they promised us like compatible electrical devices never happened. But removal of elected governments did.

[C. Flower]

So we now have confirmation of the suspicions that the government were negotiating to ensure that there would be no obvious trigger for a referendum in the Treaty:

I see the official is echoing Leo's language on how referendums are not very democratic:

So much for the denials from government representatives over the last couple of weeks.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0201/1224311050007.html

It is untrue that the public didn't vote on the issues on Lisbon, but this lie has been repeated ad nauseam by the likes of Sarkozy and by Irish politicians. Had a right wing Greek say it to me last week on twitter.

[PaddyJoe]

Original story confirmed by German minister for European Affairs:

GERMANY’S MINISTER for European Affairs has confirmed that European Union negotiators sought to design the euro zone fiscal compact in such a way to avoid a referendum in Ireland.

Michael Link, who was visiting Dublin yesterday for talks with Ministers, officials and members of the Oireachtas, added that Ireland’s constitutional requirements will also help to determine the drafting, at next week’s EU summit, of rules governing the role of the European Court of Justice in enforcing the new pact.
When asked if the fiscal compact agreed in Brussels last month had been designed in such a way that it would not need a referendum in Ireland, Mr Link replied: “Exactly”.

The German minister’s comments appear to contradict the Taoiseach’s denial in the Dáil this month of a report in this newspaper that parts of the pact were explicitly drafted to give the Government a chance to avoid a referendum.http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0223/1224312244512.html

[PaddyJoe]

The set up was being denied back in January:

The Irish Times - Thursday, January 19, 2012
TAOISEACH ENDA Kenny and Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar have denied the Government will indicate at the European summit at the end of the month whether Ireland is to hold a referendum on a new fiscal treaty.

Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin and Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams raised the matter in the Dáil, following an RTÉ report that quoted EU diplomats to the effect that Mr Kenny would have to indicate to EU leaders within 12 days as to whether or not a referendum was needed.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0119/1224310448228.html

[concernedparent]

Seriously though. Are we surprised?

[Ah Well]

Seriously though. Are we surprised?

No - and if a Referendum were required, "Yes" would be the ultimate outcome, whether willingly given or not - Vote yes and vote often

[concernedparent]

No - and if a Referendum were required, "Yes" would be the ultimate outcome, whether willingly given or not - Vote yes and vote often

And keep going back until you get the right answer.:eek:

[Baron von Biffo]

Original story confirmed by German minister for European Affairs:


The German minister’s comments appear to contradict the Taoiseach’s denial in the Dáil this month of a report in this newspaper that parts of the pact were explicitly drafted to give the Government a chance to avoid a referendum.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0223/1224312244512.html

It's a bit unfair of you to criticise Gump like that. He hasn't had time to give all versions of his speech on the subject and on past form at least one of them will be the complete opposite of the one you quote.

[rebellin]

Regardless of German minister Michael List's unabashed arrogance in confirming that the EU compact was written in such a way as to avoid a referendum in Ireland, there will be no free ride for the flailing EU in Ireland.

Sinn Fein and the ULA independence are consulting legal avenues for a referendum. Even though, disgustingly, but not surprisingly, Fianna Fail came out last week in an anti referendum move and also said if there was a referendum they'd vote yes, there are still other avenues to explore beyond that of article 28 which seemed so easily within the grasp of the opposition to bring off, before the predictable perfidy of FF.

Also, in an interview from London this week, Michael D Higgins said, that no matter what the opinion of the AG is on the constitutionality of the EU compact, he, as President, using article 26, will call in the Council of State, hear their judgement o0n the matter, and then use his own judgement in whether or not to to bring this before the Supreme Court.

So the issue is not cut and dried and the rubber stamp that the banksters had hoped for has been thrown out the window. Our job is to fight like hell and spread the contagion the EU is so afraid of. Not the spread of debt contagion they mouth off about, but the spread of NO TO AUSTERITY.

[concernedparent]

Regardless of German minister Michael List's unabashed arrogance in confirming that the EU compact was written in such a way as to avoid a referendum in Ireland, there will be no free ride for the flailing EU in Ireland.

Sinn Fein and the ULA independence are consulting legal avenues for a referendum. Even though, disgustingly, but not surprisingly, Fianna Fail came out last week in an anti referendum move and also said if there was a referendum they'd vote yes, there are still other avenues to explore beyond that of article 28 which seemed so easily within the grasp of the opposition to bring off, before the predictable perfidy of FF.

Also, in an interview from London this week, Michael D Higgins said, that no matter what the opinion of the AG is on the constitutionality of the EU compact, he, as President, using article 26, will call in the Council of State, hear their judgement o0n the matter, and then use his own judgement in whether or not to to bring this before the Supreme Court.

So the issue is not cut and dried and the rubber stamp that the banksters had hoped for has been thrown out the window. Our job is to fight like hell and spread the contagion the EU is so afraid of. Not the spread of debt contagion they mouth off about, but the spread of NO TO AUSTERITY.

I will be in the front row rousing the rabble.

[Baron von Biffo]

Also, in an interview from London this week, Michael D Higgins said, that no matter what the opinion of the AG is on the constitutionality of the EU compact, he, as President, using article 26, will call in the Council of State, hear their judgement o0n the matter, and then use his own judgement in whether or not to to bring this before the Supreme Court.

Do you have a link for that interview?

During the election campaign Higgins spoke about article 26 a number of times and it was clear that he understood how dangerous it is. Hopefully he wont make a referral in this case.

[PaddyJoe]

As rebellin pointed out above:

REMARKS MADE by President Michael D Higgins during a visit to London during the week have caused alarm in the Government, The Irish Times has learned.
The primary concern among Cabinet Ministers relates to the President’s comments about the possibility of summoning the Council of State if the Government proceeds to ratify the fiscal compact treaty by legislation rather than referendum.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0225/1224312378180.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

[Ah Well]

As rebellin pointed out above:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0225/1224312378180.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

They did indeed ..

Michael D ... the new Vaclav? ;)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1218/havelv.html

As Higgins stated "the moral influence of Vaclav's life and words continued to inspire those around the world who struggle for the protection of human rights, care for the maintenance of democratic values and the indispensability of human dignity."

Unfortunately the part outlined in bold above is a foreign creature to the Merkozy led thing loosely known as the EU these days and democracy with and within is an ass

[ang]

John Bruton says Irelands economic recovery would be put at risk if a Referenbum on the fiscal treaty were to be held. John also said in an interview with the FT, that he felt there was no need for a referendum as the current government has won the biggest mandate in 40yrs and they should therefore make the decision.

He (John) believes in the "parliamentary system of government, not the plebiscitary system"

Currency policy was not suitable for referendum according to Mr Bruton as opinion poll flutuations would effect markets and this could lead to market movements pre-empting the decision of the electorate,

Meanwhile the same article observes that in a report to be released by Davy Stockbrokers on Monday they state that Ireland has no choice but to join the fiscal compact even though the target of adhering to a 0.5 per cent structural deficit was a poor one. It warned that a structural deficit target is an “abstract economic concept”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/52648fe2-6075-11e1-af75-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1nWpQgCQo

[C. Flower]

Indeed. With a majority like that, surely they should not be asked to seek re-election at any stage, less a general election should spook the markets.

[PaddyJoe]

John Bruton says Irelands economic recovery would be put at risk if a Referenbum on the fiscal treaty were to be held. John also said in an interview with the FT, that he felt there was no need for a referendum as the current government has won the biggest mandate in 40yrs and they should therefore make the decision.

He (John) believes in the "parliamentary system of government, not the plebiscitary system"

Currency policy was not suitable for referendum according to Mr Bruton as opinion poll flutuations would effect markets and this could lead to market movements pre-empting the decision of the electorate,

Meanwhile the same article observes that in a report to be released by Davy Stockbrokers on Monday they state that Ireland has no choice but to join the fiscal compact even though the target of adhering to a 0.5 per cent structural deficit was a poor one. It warned that a structural deficit target is an “abstract economic concept”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/52648fe2-6075-11e1-af75-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1nWpQgCQo

A not very subtle attempt to put pressure on AG Marie Whelan to come up with the 'correct' advice. Government ministers can't say anything in public about it but John Bruton is close enough to the Cabinet to deliver the message.

[Ah Well]

John also said in an interview with the FT, that he felt there was no need for a referendum as the current government has won the biggest mandate in 40yrs and they should therefore make the decision[/URL]

That Article is behind a paywall, but if he actually stated that/words to such effect, then that is beyond disgusting

It does tie in with Merkozy Europe tho, where democracy does not exist

Reminds one of weasel words uttered by Sarko before the Euro Parl some years back :mad:

[PaddyJoe]

That Article is behind a paywall, but if he actually stated that/words to such effect, then that is beyond disgusting

It does tie in with Merkozy Europe tho, where democracy does not exist

Reminds one of weasel words uttered by Sarko before the Euro Parl some years back :mad:

The quote:



“Currency policy is not a suitable subject for a referendum because of the effect that a campaign and fluctuations in opinion polls could have on the markets,” said Mr Bruton. “Indeed, the market movements could pre-empt the decision of the people.
/snip
“I believe, myself, strongly in the parliamentary system of government, not the plebiscitary system.”

[Ah Well]

The quote:

[/COLOR][/LEFT]

Ta PJ ...

Bruton speaks like a true Eurocrat ...

He can shut it tho re the fiscal slant and his overseer notions ... if something concerns Bunreacht na hEireann then the people are to decide by Referendum .. regardless of what he or the rest of 'em think

[ang]

Ta PJ ...

Bruton speaks like a true Eurocrat ...

He can shut it tho re the fiscal slant and his overseer notions ... if something concerns Bunreacht na hEireann then the people are to decide by Referendum .. regardless of what he or the rest of 'em think

Quote on Government mandate



Mr Bruton said he did not feel a referendum was legally necessary. The current government, which won the biggest mandate for 40 years from the people in last year’s election, should make the decision, he said.

[Ah Well]

Quote on Government mandate

Bruton can feel whatever he wants ... as is pretty obvious from his comments

Is it coincidental that all of this bunkum is emanating after we hear of Michael D's comments in London ... after all, in his Presidential Oath he swore to maintain the Constitution of Ireland - (Article 12.8)

[PaddyJoe]

Marie Whelan is not going to be on many Christmas card lists this year. Bet FG wish they had held on to the AG's office themselves:)