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C. Flower
16-04-2010, 05:08 PM
News from the Labour Party Conference in Galway - Jerry Cowley has joined Labour - a natural home for him perhaps.

Any updates from the Conference would be appreciated.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 05:23 PM
The latest RTE news bulletin (5pm) carried the news that former Mayo independent TD Jerry Cowley has joined the Labour Party. This coincides with the Labour Party conference this weekend. There's no indication as yet that he will be running for Labour in the next GE, but I'd say it's a safe bet that he will be. What will this mean for electoral politics in Mayo, and will he now be in support of Shell's corrupt and dangerous Corrib Gas project, like his now-former-colleague Johnny Mee (retired Labour councillor)? Mr. Mee voted for specific road improvements in Kilcommon parish that were specifically for the benefit of Shell, and he opined that 'it must be hard for the industrialists' during the debate on that motion. Mr. Mee's son, Alan now works for Shell in their Belmullet office, as pointed out in the indymedia article referenced below.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0416/labour.html

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/96367

C. Flower
16-04-2010, 05:27 PM
The latest RTE news bulletin (5pm) carried the news that former Mayo independent TD Jerry Cowley has joined the Labour Party. This coincides with the Labour Party conference this weekend. There's no indication as yet that he will be running for Labour in the next GE, but I'd say it's a safe bet that he will be. What will this mean for electoral politics in Mayo, and will he now be in support of Shell's corrupt and dangerous Corrib Gas project, like his now-former-colleague Johnny Mee (retired Labour councillor)? Mr. Mee voted for specific road improvements in Kilcommon parish that were specifically for the benefit of Shell, and he opined that 'it must be hard for the industrialists' during the debate on that motion. Mr. Mee's son, Alan now works for Shell in their Belmullet office, as pointed out in the indymedia article referenced below.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0416/labour.html

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/96367

What would Jerry Cowley's own history be ?

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 05:37 PM
Damn! Beaten to it by C Flower! Merge the other thread I started with this.

I really wonder if us S2S folks are going to see him again trying to control and destroy the resistance to Shell and their Corrib gas theft. He was no loss when he disappeared in 2007 after he lost his seat, and if he's seen again around the campaign it will provoke serious opposition to him being involved again, both in Erris and wider afield. He'll have his supporters up there I admit, but many more feel that he betrayed the campaign back in 2006, doing the State's and Shell's work by deliberately de-escalating the confrontation that was developing between Shell/the govt. and the local community & their supporters.

I wouldn't think his chances would be great anyway, because he's seen as a Ballina-based candidate (that's where he's from) and Ballina will have Dara Calleary (FF) a sitting TD and Michelle Mulherin (FG) a county councillor. He lives in Mulranny, but he doesn't draw much support from there or from Westport where his GP practice is. Even with a swing to Labour of Spring Tide proportions he'd be up against it, and I'd wonder what his relationship with the constituency party membership is going to be like.

C. Flower
16-04-2010, 05:47 PM
Damn! Beaten to it by C Flower! Merge the other thread I started with this.

I really wonder if us S2S folks are going to see him again trying to control and destroy the resistance to Shell and their Corrib gas theft. He was no loss when he disappeared in 2007 after he lost his seat, and if he's seen again around the campaign it will provoke serious opposition to him being involved again, both in Erris and wider afield. He'll have his supporters up there I admit, but many more feel that he betrayed the campaign back in 2006, doing the State's and Shell's work by deliberately de-escalating the confrontation that was developing between Shell/the govt. and the local community & their supporters.

I wouldn't think his chances would be great anyway, because he's seen as a Ballina-based candidate (that's where he's from) and Ballina will have Dara Calleary (FF) a sitting TD and Michelle Mulherin (FG) a county councillor. He lives in Mulranny, but he doesn't draw much support from there or from Westport where his GP practice is. Even with a swing to Labour of Spring Tide proportions he'd be up against it, and I'd wonder what his relationship with the constituency party membership is going to be like.

So, you don't think FF will be wiped out at the Polls ?
Will any other Left candidates run ?

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 05:48 PM
What would Jerry Cowley's own history be ?

Poor and contradictory, I'd say. Even though he was involved heavily in the Shell to Sea campaign and its predecessor from 2004 until he was unseated in 2007, he boasted back in 2002 in an Irish Examiner profile article for that year's general election that he'd be the man to 'bring the Corrib Gas ashore'. Even though he has a good track record working on the project he helped start to help British-based Mayo emigrants in poverty retire in the county, I'd say that his involvement in Erris was more opportunistic than principled. And it is the latter that I'd judge him on - I might be biased but I got to see the man in action up close during those years, and I didn't like what I saw.

C. Flower
16-04-2010, 05:52 PM
http://jerrycowley.blogspot.com/

His blog. A barrister and a doctor.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 05:55 PM
So, you don't think FF will be wiped out at the Polls ?
Will any other Left candidates run ?

Well, if you're voting for a Ballina candidate as your priority, then the two I mentioned would be ahead of the good doctor. Even during the Spring Tide I don't think they ran candidates in either Mayo East or Mayo West. There was only one FF TD returned the last time 'round, and the question being asked by pundits about the next GE is what'll become of Beverly 'class act' Flynn's vote. Her vote is mostly Castlebar-based, and Dr. Cowley has no presence in that part of the county whatsoever.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 06:00 PM
http://jerrycowley.blogspot.com/

His blog. A barrister and a doctor.

You don't get to be both without a serious silver-spooned background. Lots of people wouldn't be able to relate to someone from such a privileged background, never mind vote for the toff!

Xray
16-04-2010, 06:02 PM
What would Jerry Cowley's own history be ?

He is a GP and a qualified Lawyer I believe. I think he is ex-FF. Lost out the last time to a strong FG vote and the new boy on the block in FF. He is seen as a hospital candidate and the hospital in Castlebar is in a lot of trouble for cuts.

I can easily see he getting a seat at the expensive of FF. Caleary is in real danger despite the merc.

I think he will take the seat again.

Xray
16-04-2010, 06:03 PM
You don't get to be both without a serious silver-spooned background. Lots of people wouldn't be able to relate to someone from such a privileged background, never mind vote for the toff!

I have heard him called many things, a toff is not one of them.

C. Flower
16-04-2010, 06:04 PM
He is a GP and a qualified Lawyer I believe. I think he is ex-FF. Lost out the last time to a strong FG vote and the new boy on the block in FF. He is seen as a hospital candidate and the hospital in Castlebar is in a lot of trouble for cuts.

I can easily see he getting a seat at the expensive of FF. Caleary is in real danger despite the merc.

I think he will take the seat again.

We surely have to assume there is a lot of anger with FF and that will have its effects right across the country.

Xray
16-04-2010, 06:09 PM
We surely have to assume there is a lot of anger with FF and that will have its effects right across the country.

Absolutely and very few of these Ex-FF voters will go to FG. But they will want to get someone in. Lab with a known local name is a good bet. I think he has a very good chance.

It is a very good move all around, suits both sides. We might see a few more high profile indos breaking for Labour.

As an ex-FFer who will vote Labour this is exactly what I am looking for on the ballot paper. It is not a protest vote either, it can result in someone being elected.

disability student
16-04-2010, 06:09 PM
There is a lot of IND FF hoping to regain a seat or get a seat but they WILL always VOTE for FF. That's what people don't realise that. No point for me to vote for IND FF because it's a back door to FF in terms of votes.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 06:18 PM
Absolutely and very few of these Ex-FF voters will go to FG. But they will want to get someone in. Lab with a known local name is a good bet. I think he has a very good chance.

It is a very good move all around, suits both sides. We might see a few more high profile indos breaking for Labour.

As an ex-FFer who will vote Labour this is exactly what I am looking for on the ballot paper. It is not a protest vote either, it can result in someone being elected.

It don't work like that in rural Ireland, Mayo in particular. I'd rate Mayo as one of the most right-wing constituencies of the 43, but a man whose parents could afford to put him through both medical school and a solicitor's apprenticeship will raise class-envy/hatred among the twenty-acre farmers and their kids, not to mention voters from the estates in the larger towns. He'll be seen as a 'liberal lefty gob$hite who presumes he'll get our votes because he says he's down with poor people'.

Now, if he advocated the shooting of travellers on sight, he might have a chance in Mayo, particularly in the slightly-less-poor east of the county.

Xray
16-04-2010, 06:31 PM
It don't work like that in rural Ireland, Mayo in particular. I'd rate Mayo as one of the most right-wing constituencies of the 43, but a man whose parents could afford to put him through both medical school and a solicitor's apprenticeship will raise class-envy/hatred among the twenty-acre farmers and their kids, not to mention voters from the estates in the larger towns. He'll be seen as a 'liberal lefty gob$hite who presumes he'll get our votes because he says he's down with poor people'.

Now, if he advocated the shooting of travellers on sight, he might have a chance in Mayo, particularly in the slightly-less-poor east of the county.


The fact that he took a seat there as an Indo proves you are mistaken.
Mayo in conservative sure, but there is a seat there. If you look at the vote he got, with Labour, Greens & SF there is way more than seat there to go to a non FG/FF person. Many people will love to elect anyone as long as they take at least one of the FF seats. He gets votes in C-bar too because of the hospitals. So he was Newport/Westport and C-bar for a reasonable support base. Labour have some presence in C-bar also.

I would lay money on him taking the seat. FF are going to collapse. Many builders etc have been wiped out by the recession. There is a lot of fear over hospital cuts and bitterness over the cancer thing a few months ago.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 06:38 PM
I have heard him called many things, a toff is not one of them.

Deny it if you can, but Jerry Cowley's a member of Ireland's rich class. He made €500,000+ from medical card patients in 2005, just to give one example of his earning power. Have you seen his house in Mulranny on the coast road? Neither I nor anybody else from a working-class or small-farming background can relate to that. Us sorts tend to prefer one of our own wide-boys 'made good' ahead of such well-bred opulence. That was what Pee, the 'class act' and dozens of other FF TDs traded off; no disrespect to you but I think you're on a hiding to nothing if you think the dole-drawers and the low-earners are going to fall in love with a haughty boarding-school-educated millionaire like Dr. Cowley. And the middle classes will vote for what they're used to - that has never failed them for the last eighty years or more.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 06:46 PM
The fact that he took a seat there as an Indo proves you are mistaken.
Mayo in conservative sure, but there is a seat there. If you look at the vote he got, with Labour, Greens & SF there is way more than seat there to go to a non FG/FF person. Many people will love to elect anyone as long as they take at least one of the FF seats. He gets votes in C-bar too because of the hospitals. So he was Newport/Westport and C-bar for a reasonable support base. Labour have some presence in C-bar also.

I would lay money on him taking the seat. FF are going to collapse. Many builders etc have been wiped out by the recession. There is a lot of fear over hospital cuts and bitterness over the cancer thing a few months ago.

He was an obscure 'independent' nobody back in 2002, and no elector was looking at him closely - he was elected on the back of what I'd call the 'Healy-Rae Effect'. People in 2002 were going, 'well if that's what a South Kerry 'independent' can get, then lets have one of our own too!' That resulted in 'independents' getting in in constituencies from Cavan-Monaghan to Clare to Mayo to Wexford. Unfortunately for that coterie of chancers, FF and the PDs had a working majority and nothing came of it. Then all the 'independents with a price tag' disappeared from view in June 2007 like an unseasonal snowfall.

My point is that there were reasons other than the quality of candidate that were responsible for Dr. Cowley's election in 2002, and that those reasons were decisive in his election.

Xray
16-04-2010, 06:51 PM
Deny it if you can, but Jerry Cowley's a member of Ireland's rich class. He made €500,000+ from medical card patients in 2005, just to give one example of his earning power. Have you seen his house in Mulranny on the coast road? Neither I nor anybody else from a working-class or small-farming background can relate to that. Us sorts tend to prefer one of our own wide-boys 'made good' ahead of such well-bred opulence. That was what Pee, the 'class act' and dozens of other FF TDs traded off; no disrespect to you but I think you're on a hiding to nothing if you think the dole-drawers and the low-earners are going to fall in love with a haughty boarding-school-educated millionaire like Dr. Cowley. And the middle classes will vote for what they're used to - that has never failed them for the last eighty years or more.

They have failed them now in a big way. FG will vote FG. Many FF will not vote FF. I don't know Cowleys house but I know Bevs one. It is like a Castle.

I have no problem with someone earning plenty of money if they work for it. A GP works hard as far as I am concerned.

Unlike you class politics does not interest me. I will vote for whoever will vote the way I would if I were in the Dail. Many are like me. They are not going to reject someone because they have two degrees and a great income.

If they have castle I am not so sure...

Xray
16-04-2010, 06:54 PM
He was an obscure 'independent' nobody back in 2002, and no elector was looking at him closely - he was elected on the back of what I'd call the 'Healy-Rae Effect'. People in 2002 were going, 'well if that's what a South Kerry 'independent' can get, then lets have one of our own too!' That resulted in 'independents' getting in in constituencies from Cavan-Monaghan to Clare to Mayo to Wexford. Unfortunately for that coterie of chancers, FF and the PDs had a working majority and nothing came of it. Then all the 'independents with a price tag' disappeared from view in June 2007 like an unseasonal snowfall.

My point is that there were reasons other than the quality of candidate that were responsible for Dr. Cowley's election in 2002, and that those reasons were decisive in his election.

I agree with you and don't even think he is that strong a candidate. But between the name being known, membership of a party of government and plenty to yap about in the hospital he is onto a winner when he starts ranking about FF. If people think voting for him is bad news for FF, then vote for him they will. They would vote for satan if they had to regardless of what his house is like.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 07:07 PM
They have failed them now in a big way. FG will vote FG. Many FF will not vote FF. I don't know Cowleys house but I know Bevs one. It is like a Castle.

I have no problem with someone earning plenty of money if they work for it. A GP works hard as far as I am concerned.

Unlike you class politics does not interest me. I will vote for whoever will vote the way I would if I were in the Dail. Many are like me. They are not going to reject someone because they have two degrees and a great income.

If they have castle I am not so sure...

How have the solicitors, GPs, superpub owners, senior civil servants, accountants, corporate managers, business owners, hoteliers and so on been failed by the current establishment? They're all attempting to move mountains to make sure that the costs of the casino economy will be borne by little people like you and me, if you are indeed who you think you are. remember that Brian Lenihan stated baldly that this jurisdiction would remain a low-tax economy for the business sector, and that the pay of GPs and consultants for example hasn't even once been mentioned by the 'we are where we are' brigade. Sure some nice middle-class folks are losing their salaried positions, but it's nothing compared to the flood of redundancies that industrial workers and the low-paid have endured. And housing costs the same regardless of your income, as do groceries, etc. FF, FG, the GP and LAB will ensure that the well-bred and the well-got will have enough fat on their bones to survive the lean times. But people like me will be expected to either emigrate or starve. That's why I am interested in class-based politics, and if you are a working person on a modest income too then you should be as well.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 07:20 PM
I agree with you and don't even think he is that strong a candidate. But between the name being known, membership of a party of government and plenty to yap about in the hospital he is onto a winner when he starts ranking about FF. If people think voting for him is bad news for FF, then vote for him they will. They would vote for satan if they had to regardless of what his house is like.

In fact the more that he's known, the less he's liked. People liked him better when he was an obscure nobody who possibly could be used to wheedle pork out of 'the Parthy', and there's no way he can be seen as such now. Anyway, the hard-core rightists (especially the tuppenny-ha'penny white trash types posting over on Politics.ie (Tomás Mór, James Healy, etc.)) will never vote for him even in a fit, even though the man torpedoed the the hated Mayo resistance to Shell. They wouldn't even give the good doctor a last preference.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not sneering at 'white trash' - after all I'm 'trailer trash' if I were described in US social class terms. The difference is I recognise that fact and I construct my politics from that realisation, and I don't hallucinate that I have some interest in common with the rich (both aristocracy and 'meritocracy'), unlike some deluded people.

Xray
16-04-2010, 07:25 PM
How have the solicitors, GPs, superpub owners, senior civil servants, accountants, corporate managers, business owners, hoteliers and so on been failed by the current establishment? They're all attempting to move mountains to make sure that the costs of the casino economy will be borne by little people like you and me, if you are indeed who you think you are. remember that Brian Lenihan stated baldly that this jurisdiction would remain a low-tax economy for the business sector, and that the pay of GPs and consultants for example hasn't even once been mentioned by the 'we are where we are' brigade. Sure some nice middle-class folks are losing their salaried positions, but it's nothing compared to the flood of redundancies that industrial workers and the low-paid have endured. And housing costs the same regardless of your income, as do groceries, etc. FF, FG, the GP and LAB will ensure that the well-bred and the well-got will have enough fat on their bones to survive the lean times. But people like me will be expected to either emigrate or starve. That's why I am interested in class-based politics, and if you are a working person on a modest income too then you should be as well.


Firstly you have a narrow idea of what middle class is, it certainly runs to people on far lower wages and incomes to what you list. Also some of the people you mention like public hospitals consultants have taken a huge hit, granted they can with starving, but they are not happy.

If is all fine and well for Lenehan to promise whatever he likes about tax, but he wont be in power so it does not matter what he think beyond one or two more budgets.

I dont blame you for being angry because you are right, they do expect you to emigrate. But I am only telling you as I see it. I see a lot of people on average industrial wages or maybe a bit more absolutely seething with anger. Many of them voted FF in the past. Many them live in rural places. Who do you think they will vote for?

I think they will vote for whoever looks like will get a seat that is not FG or a total nut.

How hotel owners or solicitors vote does not amount to a hill of beans.

FF have dropped the ball badly for the people that voted for them. They have handed them a bill that is un-payable to bail out their bank. You don't understand why people voted FF because you probably never did. I unfortunately cannot make the same claim.

FF may like to think it is the party of business and banks, but it is the biggest working class and moderate income earner vote getter in the country. That is over forever.

Xray
16-04-2010, 07:32 PM
In fact the more that he's known, the less he's liked. People liked him better when he was an obscure nobody who possibly could be used to wheedle pork out of 'the Parthy', and there's no way he can be seen as such now. Anyway, the hard-core rightists (especially the tuppenny-ha'penny white trash types posting over on Politics.ie (Tomás Mór, James Healy, etc.)) will never vote for him even in a fit, even though the man torpedoed the the hated Mayo resistance to Shell. They wouldn't even give the good doctor a last preference.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not sneering at 'white trash' - after all I'm 'trailer trash' if I were described in US social class terms. The difference is I recognise that fact and I construct my politics from that realisation, and I don't hallucinate that I have some interest in common with the rich (both aristocracy and 'meritocracy'), unlike some deluded people.


Well he should and could have kept his seat the last time so he certainly has some way to climb back there so I agree with you there. But with the spin machine of a party there they might manage to get a foot or two out of the mouth.

The nasty right wing vote you talk of will be interesting to watch, I worry about it to be honest. Its support level is hard to judge. I am unsure who you support but I would urge you to think about supporting a mainstream left wing person. Places like Mayo only have at best one chance at electing a left wing person, dividing the vote several ways is pointless.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 08:26 PM
Firstly you have a narrow idea of what middle class is, it certainly runs to people on far lower wages and incomes to what you list. Also some of the people you mention like public hospitals consultants have taken a huge hit, granted they can with starving, but they are not happy.

Au contraire! It is you that has an over-wide idea of who is middle class. Getting wage earners to think they were middle class just because they could aspire to owning their own home and taking two foreign holidays a year was the biggest con-trick the post-WWII ruling classes ever pulled. It is not so much how much you earn but rather your economic relationship to the means whereby you earn your wage or salary that is the primary determinant of your social class. A well-remunerated slave is still a slave, even though s/he may sleep in a mini-mansion.


If is all fine and well for Lenehan to promise whatever he likes about tax, but he wont be in power so it does not matter what he think beyond one or two more budgets.

Neither FG nor LAB demur from this general statement of intent. It's all about the jobs and the FDI. And where is this FDI going to come from when the Anglosphere's corporate sector remains fukked well into the future? Germany's outsourcing is going east, and to the Chinese/Japanese this little pipsqueak comedy central of an economy just doesn't exist. I guess that leaves North Korea and Burma - I reckon the Irish political classes can see themselves doing the social and economic needful to make such FDI sources a reality. I exaggerate, but not by much. The Irish establishment already supports corporate entities that pay death squads to 'disappear' trade unionists in other parts of the world. Here, the leading trade unionsts will 'disappear' under their own steam - no death squad required!


I dont blame you for being angry because you are right, they do expect you to emigrate. But I am only telling you as I see it. I see a lot of people on average industrial wages or maybe a bit more absolutely seething with anger. Many of them voted FF in the past. Many them live in rural places. Who do you think they will vote for?


I think they will vote for whoever looks like will get a seat that is not FG or a total nut.

A good half of them will vote FF again, once they see that FG/LAB promise them the same and worse, and that if they vote for either of that pair then the mandate they have bestowed them will be used to pauperise them. Better the devil you know, and all that. It worked for FF in 2007, didn't it?

People are not fools but they see no alternative, which is a failure both of the revolutionary left in Ireland (myself included - mea culpa) and of the general culture when it comes to this country's subject classes. Some of the rest will vote for the current opposition, either out of personal ties, or a deluded belief that either FG or LAB mean something different for their futures and their children's futures, but not in enough numbers to bury Fianna Fáil. Even Ned O'Keeffe opined to Maura Harrington outside the Dáil recently that he banks on being one of the 40 FFers who'll get back in, and that man may be many things but he's no fool.

Then there's the pint-sucking donkey vote (which describes a good share of my childhood friends) who stand at the back of the church on Sunday mornings and watch porn on the web on Sunday evenings after their feed of pints in the pub. I have to vote for rovers, we always have voted for rovers, rangers might get in - and how will we get little seanie/mary into the guards/civil service/the FDI factory if Mickey McDokes isn't a rovers TD?' The first two or three years of the Great Depression MkII won't harness the donkeys to a new cart blithely.


How hotel owners or solicitors vote does not amount to a hill of beans.

What do you think NAMA is? A rescue vehicle for the Irish real economy or the Irish casino economy? Brian Lenihan envisaged the recovery of the property 'market' in ten years back in 2008, and I bet you he'll still say that. That means we can all get back to paying conveyancing fees and having weekend breaks in Killarney on the strength of the re-mortgage. Remember, the casino economy (now Lenny & Biffo & Da Bert wouldn't call it that but I will) was a sound paradigm, and what we're in now was all Lehman Bros.' fault, so it'll be back soon, dar leo.

And who are the 'senior bondholders' anyway?


FF have dropped the ball badly for the people that voted for them. They have handed them a bill that is un-payable to bail out their bank. You don't understand why people voted FF because you probably never did. I unfortunately cannot make the same claim.

Actually, I have voted for an FF candidate in an election in my callow youth before I got wise to the 'representative democracy' scam. He was my neighbour where I grew up and a friend of the family. He turned out to be as bent as ****; he was convicted of cheque fraud in his place of work, and served almost a year of a two-year jail sentence. He had to resign his county council seat too. He's still a party enthusiast for FF, but won't be let near public life ever again. I bet the poor hoor is sorry he ever paid back nearly all of the money he stole, especially since he's seen what his FF betters have got away with.


FF may like to think it is the party of business and banks, but it is the biggest working class and moderate income earner vote getter in the country. That is over forever.

In yer dreams X-Ray, and in mine too. But unless there are real, dare I say it revolutionary, alternatives visible and available for ordinary people, that's how it'll remain.

Xray
16-04-2010, 08:42 PM
Au contraire! It is you that has an over-wide idea of who is middle class. Getting wage earners to think they were middle class just because they could aspire to owning their own home and taking two foreign holidays a year was the biggest con-trick the post-WWII ruling classes ever pulled. It is not so much how much you earn but rather your economic relationship to the means whereby you earn your wage or salary that is the primary determinant of your social class. A well-remunerated slave is still a slave, even though s/he may sleep in a mini-mansion.



Neither FG nor LAB demur from this general statement of intent. It's all about the jobs and the FDI. And where is this FDI going to come from when the Anglosphere's corporate sector remains fukked well into the future? Germany's outsourcing is going east, and to the Chinese/Japanese this little pipsqueak comedy central of an economy just doesn't exist. I guess that leaves North Korea and Burma - I reckon the Irish political classes can see themselves doing the social and economic needful to make such FDI sources a reality. I exaggerate, but not by much. The Irish establishment already supports corporate entities that pay death squads to 'disappear' trade unionists in other parts of the world. Here, the leading trade unionsts will 'disappear' under their own steam - no death squad required!



A good half of them will vote FF again, once they see that FG/LAB promise them the same and worse, and that if they vote for either of that pair then the mandate they have bestowed them will be used to pauperise them. Better the devil you know, and all that. It worked for FF in 2007, didn't it?

People are not fools but they see no alternative, which is a failure both of the revolutionary left in Ireland (myself included - mea culpa) and of the general culture when it comes to this country's subject classes. Some of the rest will vote for the current opposition, either out of personal ties, or a deluded belief that either FG or LAB mean something different for their futures and their children's futures, but not in enough numbers to bury Fianna Fáil. Even Ned O'Keeffe opined to Maura Harrington outside the Dáil recently that he banks on being one of the 40 FFers who'll get back in, and that man may be many things but he's no fool.

Then there's the pint-sucking donkey vote (which describes a good share of my childhood friends) who stand at the back of the church on Sunday mornings and watch porn on the web on Sunday evenings after their feed of pints in the pub. I have to vote for rovers, we always have voted for rovers, rangers might get in - and how will we get little seanie/mary into the guards/civil service/the FDI factory if Mickey McDokes isn't a rovers TD?' The first two or three years of the Great Depression MkII won't harness the donkeys to a new cart blithely.



What do you think NAMA is? A rescue vehicle for the Irish real economy or the Irish casino economy. Brian Lenihan envisaged the recovery of the property 'market' in ten years back in 2008, and I bet you he'll still say that. That means we can all get back to paying conveyancing fees and having weekend breaks in Killarney on the strength of the re-mortgage. Remember, the casino economy (now Lenny & Biffo & Da Bert wouldn't call it that but I will) was a sound paradigm, and what we're in now was all Lehman Bros.' fault, so it'll be back soon, dar leo.

And who are the 'senior bondholders' anyway?



Actually, I have voted for an FF candidate in an election in my callow youth before I got wise to the 'representative democracy' scam. He was my neighbour where I grew up and a friend of the family. He turned out to be as bent as ****; he was convicted of cheque fraud in his place of work, and served almost a year of a two-year jail sentence. He had to resign his county council seat too. He's still a party enthusiast for FF, but won't be let near public life ever again. I bet the poor hoor is sorry he ever paid back nearly all of the money he stole, especially since he's seen what his FF betters have got away with.



In yer dreams X-Ray, and in mine too. But unless there are real, dare I say it revolutionary, alternatives visible and available for ordinary people, that's how it'll remain.


Half them may vote for them again as you say but that still means Bev or Calleary could lose a seat in Mayo and it may not be to Mulhern.

Whether you consider someone on 40k a year PAYE working class or middle class does not really matter at the end of the day. What matters is where they think their bread is buttered because they are the people with the numbers to swing elections. The donkey rarely change votes some they dont matter. In my opinion there are alot of joes and marys out there on 40k that though FF were looking out for them, now they think they are looking after the list of people you mentioned above. That is unforgivable politically. Call it working class or whatever you like, but it will not be forgotten in one or two years time. If FF are down to 40 seats and no local councilors they will find it hard to get back even, they will be no more getting into the Guards then.


You could see a revolution at the ballot box yet, I think the winds have changed and there is nothing that can prevent wipe out for FF. There may even be a strong challenge from the left yet, not if it is divided into 15 different micro-parties arguing about a load of crap.

Digger Out
16-04-2010, 10:02 PM
News from the Labour Party Conference in Galway - Jerry Cowley has joined Labour - a natural home for him perhaps.

Any updates from the Conference would be appreciated.


Its not his natural home FF would though. He canvassed for Beverley Cooper Flynn in 1994 by election. He is joining labour now in the hope he can get back to Dail. He would still be a TD but threw in his entire lot with Shell to Sea rabble, thats why he lost his seat.

He is a huge earning doctor with plenty of property, a socialist my ass.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 10:36 PM
Its not his natural home FF would though. He canvassed for Beverley Cooper Flynn in 1994 by election. He is joining labour now in the hope he can get back to Dail. He would still be a TD but threw in his entire lot with Shell to Sea rabble, thats why he lost his seat.

He is a huge earning doctor with plenty of property, a socialist my ass.

You're plumb wrong there m8. He lost because he wasn't the next Healy-Rae, like what was hoped for him back in '02. Therefore the local electorate had no further use for him. He didn't get votes out of people in Erris because 2006 saw him sussed for the upper-class milktoast and collaborator that he is. The Ballina vote was sewn up between Calleary and Mulherin. He had little or no vote anywhere else in the constituency. I believe he supports Shell's 'right' to the gas now - so will you support him then? You're dead right about him not being a socialist though.

Kid Ryder
16-04-2010, 11:00 PM
You could see a revolution at the ballot box yet, I think the winds have changed and there is nothing that can prevent wipe out for FF. There may even be a strong challenge from the left yet, not if it is divided into 15 different micro-parties arguing about a load of crap.

Sorry X-Ray, I really can't let you get away with that lazy and misleading use of language. I think you have fallen for 'marketingspeak' where every latest product is 'revolutionary', and you haven't consciously realised that that word has become so banalised by advertising (among others, like 'new' and 'fresh') that you don't know what it means anymore. There can be no such thing as 'a revolution at the ballot box', because running for election is in fact auditioning for the benefit of the owning classes to see who can fool the most people into thinking that voting for them is going to change anything. Nothing about the fundamental relationships between the powerful and the powerless changes in the wake of an election. Remember, even after the 1945 election in Britain and the foundation of the welfare state (r.i.p. 1979) capitalists remained in charge of the economy and society, and income disparities between rich and poor remained. Expecting revolutionary change from a ballot box is a mirage - it just determines what kind of pro-capitalist technocrat or populist gets in. On the off-chance that radicals just might get in, there's always the coup d'état, as happened in Spain on 19th July 1936, or Chile on September 11th 1973.

Another anecdote that will help illustrate my point: on the morning after the GE of 2007 here, on the 7a.m. RTÉ Radio1 news bulletin IIRC, was the first public comment on the election result, before even a single vote was counted. It came from the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland, who declared the election 'a victory for business'. Why did they not need to know the seat totals for the various parties in order to make that statement? Did the end result even matter to them? All that counted was that the business 'sector' and property owners remained in control of the economy and the society, and that the politicians, regardless of who was in or out, would continue to faithfully do their bidding.

Enough said - we're both going seriously off-topic. Lets get back to discussing Dr. Cowley and his chances, such as they are.

Xray
16-04-2010, 11:55 PM
Sorry X-Ray, I really can't let you get away with that lazy and misleading use of language. I think you have fallen for 'marketingspeak' where every latest product is 'revolutionary', and you haven't consciously realised that that word has become so banalised by advertising (among others, like 'new' and 'fresh') that you don't know what it means anymore. There can be no such thing as 'a revolution at the ballot box', because running for election is in fact auditioning for the benefit of the owning classes to see who can fool the most people into thinking that voting for them is going to change anything. Nothing about the fundamental relationships between the powerful and the powerless changes in the wake of an election. Remember, even after the 1945 election in Britain and the foundation of the welfare state (r.i.p. 1979) capitalists remained in charge of the economy and society, and income disparities between rich and poor remained. Expecting revolutionary change from a ballot box is a mirage - it just determines what kind of pro-capitalist technocrat or populist gets in. On the off-chance that radicals just might get in, there's always the coup d'état, as happened in Spain on 19th July 1936, or Chile on September 11th 1973.

Another anecdote that will help illustrate my point: on the morning after the GE of 2007 here, on the 7a.m. RTÉ Radio1 news bulletin IIRC, was the first public comment on the election result, before even a single vote was counted. It came from the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland, who declared the election 'a victory for business'. Why did they not need to know the seat totals for the various parties in order to make that statement? Did the end result even matter to them? All that counted was that the business 'sector' and property owners remained in control of the economy and the society, and that the politicians, regardless of who was in or out, would continue to faithfully do their bidding.

Enough said - we're both going seriously off-topic. Lets get back to discussing Dr. Cowley and his chances, such as they are.

I would not put too much weight on what the chamber of commerce thought about anything in 2007, they were probably on coke.

I would rather have some prick running the show that I voted for than some prick I did not and have no change of getting rid of. I am sure Castro is a lovely guy, but it must be wearing a bit thing at this stage.

Just because we have had criminal levels of treason does not mean that the thing cannot be reclaimed by people that are honest. What we need is people with a sense of duty in office. People that put the office above themselves. The country is full of such people in many positions. Unfortunately we have somehow elected the greatest chances from among us to office.

If we elect people with a sense of duty in sufficient numbers that will be a revolution in my book. I don't want a suspension of the electoral system or the Republic, it is about the only input I really have into anything.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying Cowley is the answer to prayer, we have seen it all before. But I think he have a good chance. The options in Mayo on the ballot paper are not inspiring. The last guy kicked out never even spoke in the Dail. Imagine being elected to the Dail and not speaking. I cannot believe that one. He is in the senate now though so its ok.

Xray
17-04-2010, 12:09 AM
Actually Kid Ryder you are right, the Labour party should be running a nurse from Mayo General or an unemployed Builder from Belmullet on the ticket not another guy collecting bits of paper. I still think he will get the seat though.

Kid Ryder
17-04-2010, 12:15 AM
I would not put too much weight on what the chamber of commerce thought about anything in 2007, they were probably on coke.

I would rather have some prick running the show that I voted for than some prick I did not and have no change of getting rid of. I am sure Castro is a lovely guy, but it must be wearing a bit thing at this stage.

Just because we have had criminal levels of treason does not mean that the thing cannot be reclaimed by people that are honest. What we need is people with a sense of duty in office. People that put the office above themselves. The country is full of such people in many positions. Unfortunately we have somehow elected the greatest chances from among us to office.

If we elect people with a sense of duty in sufficient numbers that will be a revolution in my book. I don't want a suspension of the electoral system or the Republic, it is about the only input I really have into anything.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying Cowley is the answer to prayer, we have seen it all before. But I think he have a good chance. The options in Mayo on the ballot paper are not inspiring. The last guy kicked out never even spoke in the Dail. Imagine being elected to the Dail and not speaking. I cannot believe that one. He is in the senate now though so its ok.

Wrong on all counts, as I have explained to you before in tedious detail.

Dissing the Chambers of Commerce is quite stupid on your part, as they have the ear (and balls) of every government this side of a social revolution, which is far more influence than you or I or all the 2-million-odd of us qualified electors will ever have over the political classes of this land. Who owns everything? Do elections change that fact? Answer for yourself; I know you can do it.

Finally, at least pay me the respect of not tarring me with the 'Castro' smear. I wouldn't have taken you for a lazy-minded sort, but I'm going to have to amend my opinion of you somewhat. Can you not spot an anarchist even when they've said earlier that they got wise to the 'representative democracy' scam?

-1 for you unfortunately X-Ray.

Kid Ryder
17-04-2010, 12:24 AM
Thanks for the PM X-Ray. Think I might have been a little sharp on you in the last post. If you're offended I'll take it back. After all, this is Politics.ie for grown-ups.

Xray
17-04-2010, 12:25 AM
Wrong on all counts, as I have explained to you before in tedious detail.

Dissing the Chambers of Commerce is quite stupid on your part, as they have the ear (and balls) of every government this side of a social revolution, which is far more influence than you or I or all the 2-million-odd of us qualified electors will ever have over the political classes of this land. Who owns everything? Do elections change that fact? Answer for yourself; I know you can do it.

Finally, at least pay me the respect of not tarring me with the 'Castro' smear. I wouldn't have taken you for a lazy-minded sort, but I'm going to have to amend my opinion of you somewhat. Can you not spot an anarchist even when they've said earlier that they got wise to the 'representative democracy' scam?

-1 for you unfortunately X-Ray.

Anarchist? never met one that could explain what it actually means.
Who fills the potholes and buys the medicine?

You are wrong about the chamber etc, people have been lazy and let these people on a very long lead, that's over. I will eat my hat if this is not a turning point in Irish history. Don't ask me where we are going, but its not where we came from and its not with the same people calling the shots.

Quinn thought he was calling the shots. He is not. Lenehan thinks he is calling the shots with PS workers and trying to frighten them. We'll see.

This country is close to becoming ungovernable such is the anger that is felt. The chamber of commerce or IBEC have will be over taken by a wave of emotion. Most people do not actually realise what we have signed up to here by agreeing to slash public services spending in half. They will go ape when told.

Kid Ryder
17-04-2010, 12:28 AM
Actually Kid Ryder you are right, the Labour party should be running a nurse from Mayo General or an unemployed Builder from Belmullet on the ticket not another guy collecting bits of paper. I still think he will get the seat though.

+1 generally X-Ray. The fact that Dr. Cowley is a 'parachute candidate' will rub both the Mayo electorate and Mayo Labour members up the wrong way. Can you imagine how Castlebar Town Councillor Harry Barrett feels? Snubbed by his own party, and he the only Labour public rep. in the county!

Kid Ryder
17-04-2010, 12:33 AM
Anarchist? never met one that could explain what it actually means.
Who fills the potholes and buys the medicine?

Try Wikipedia X-Ray. It gives a good, though not authoritative, introduction to the ideological current and its history. It's late now, and I don't quite have the energy right now for an exposition of basic anarchist theory and practice.

You could also be taking the pi$$, in which case you know what you can do. It involves one of your nether orifices.

Xray
17-04-2010, 12:36 AM
+1 generally X-Ray. The fact that Dr. Cowley is a 'parachute candidate' will rub both the Mayo electorate and Mayo Labour members up the wrong way. Can you imagine how Castlebar Town Councillor Harry Barrett feels? Snubbed by his own party, and he the only Labour public rep. in the county!

He is not off the ticket yet, how do Labour pick them? If its local votes it might be interesting.

Xray
17-04-2010, 12:39 AM
Try Wikipedia X-Ray. It gives a good, though not authoritative, introduction to the ideological current and its history. It's late now, and I don't quite have the energy right now for an exposition of basic anarchist theory and practice.

You could also be taking the pi$$, in which case you know what you can do. It involves one of your nether orifices.

I have had the pub chat with Anarchists. Its all fine and well but its not for me.
I want to be up for something positive not against something. I want to be defined by where I want to go rather than who I am running away from.

OK I am sure that is not your version of it, but that is how I understood it. It is a reaction politics against something negative. We need more than that. We need jobs and hope and lives for people. We need justice.

Xray
17-04-2010, 12:41 AM
Thanks for the PM X-Ray. Think I might have been a little sharp on you in the last post. If you're offended I'll take it back. After all, this is Politics.ie for grown-ups.

What would I be offended by, it is very interesting and refreshing. Don't apologise for giving a ****. I wish more people got half as excited.

Kid Ryder
17-04-2010, 12:59 AM
I have had the pub chat with Anarchists. Its all fine and well but its not for me.
I want to be up for something positive not against something. I want to be defined by where I want to go rather than who I am running away from.

OK I am sure that is not your version of it, but that is how I understood it. It is a reaction politics against something negative. We need more than that. We need jobs and hope and lives for people. We need justice.

You're being lazy and dismissive again. Please take the trouble to read about the Idea. I think it's the most positive thing out there in the world of ideas. Anarchism places its faith in the innate goodness of people and their desire to be positively-functioning social beings. Every other ideology or creed either loathes the human condition and human society, or is deeply suspicious of both human nature and human society. No person who values their own humanity and capacity for love and solidarity can believe in anything less than anarchist communism. That's my take, and that's what's been keeping me going this last half-decade or more.

Xray
17-04-2010, 01:05 AM
You're being lazy and dismissive again. Please take the trouble to read about the Idea. I think it's the most positive thing out there in the world of ideas. Anarchism places its faith in the innate goodness of people and their desire to be positively-functioning social beings. Every other ideology or creed either loathes the human condition and human society, or is deeply suspicious of both human nature and human society. No person who values their own humanity and capacity for love and solidarity can believe in anything less than anarchist communism. That's my take, and that's what's been keeping me going this last half-decade or more.

Might work for 20 people on an Island or a small local community, but in a city?
Who do you call to deal with the scumbags?
Because there are scumbags. In a way we have had something very close to anarchy at the top of society here for the last 15 years. I would have liked some righteous law enforcement.

If the country was full of people like you that would not dump washing machines in fields and borrow money from their own banks it would work.

I will read about it, but I am not optimistic. I have had passionate attempts to convince me before without result.

Xray
17-04-2010, 01:09 AM
Do you believe in property ownership?

Looking at the wiki things I recon we would be Albania in 1997 after the ponzi collapse...

C. Flower
17-04-2010, 01:38 AM
Sorry. Kid's order came to the wrong place..................

mutley
17-04-2010, 11:54 AM
He is on RTE now at the Labour party broadcast

Digger Out
17-04-2010, 05:16 PM
I would not put too much weight on what the chamber of commerce thought about anything in 2007, they were probably on coke.

I would rather have some prick running the show that I voted for than some prick I did not and have no change of getting rid of. I am sure Castro is a lovely guy, but it must be wearing a bit thing at this stage.

Just because we have had criminal levels of treason does not mean that the thing cannot be reclaimed by people that are honest. What we need is people with a sense of duty in office. People that put the office above themselves. The country is full of such people in many positions. Unfortunately we have somehow elected the greatest chances from among us to office.

If we elect people with a sense of duty in sufficient numbers that will be a revolution in my book. I don't want a suspension of the electoral system or the Republic, it is about the only input I really have into anything.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying Cowley is the answer to prayer, we have seen it all before. But I think he have a good chance. The options in Mayo on the ballot paper are not inspiring. The last guy kicked out never even spoke in the Dail. Imagine being elected to the Dail and not speaking. I cannot believe that one. He is in the senate now though so its ok.

I think Cowley is a smoked salmon socialist, like Liz McManus or Ruairi Quinn ( who was at home in FF) Cowley is a career opportunist and sees Labour as a vehicle back to the Dail. Were FF flavour of the month I bet he would be (re)joining FF , as class act Bev is yesterday's "man" and is more a hindrance to Soldiers of Destiny. But FF do not matter now as they are heading for meltdown and will be looking to a new leader and new candidates for six or seven years time as they sort themselves out in opposition.

C. Flower
17-04-2010, 05:19 PM
I think Cowley is a smoked salmon socialist, like Liz McManus or Ruairi Quinn ( who was at home in FF) Cowley is a career opportunist and sees Labour as a vehicle back to the Dail. Were FF flavour of the month I bet he would be (re)joining FF , as class act Bev is yesterday's "man" and is more a hindrance to Soldiers of Destiny. But FF do not matter now as they are heading for meltdown and will be looking to a new leader and new candidates for six or seven years time as they sort themselves out in opposition.

Would you be in favour of a Labour-led government, Digger Out ?

Digger Out
17-04-2010, 09:17 PM
Would you be in favour of a Labour-led government, Digger Out ?


Yes, if they get a majority of seats from the people.

Xray
17-04-2010, 10:13 PM
Yes, if they get a majority of seats from the people.

Good answer:o

Digger Out
18-04-2010, 09:42 PM
Has it been publicised if Dr. Cowley need not go before a selection convention for next election in Mayo. Was a deal done already and if so how does Cllr. Harry Barrett feel as he has kept the Labour flag flying in Mayo.

Xray
18-04-2010, 09:59 PM
Has it been publicised if Dr. Cowley need not go before a selection convention for next election in Mayo. Was a deal done already and if so how does Cllr. Harry Barrett feel as he has kept the Labour flag flying in Mayo.

They could always run two on the ticket...

electionlit
19-04-2010, 12:29 PM
Cowley got 3,407 votes the last time. He did though manage to overtake Sinn Feins Gerry Murray and Fianna Fails Frank Chambers before being eliminated.
In 2002 he also proved himself transfer friendly.
I'd have him as a prospect for the last seat if he were to get up around the 9% mark which would mean doubling his vote from the last time. Geography will of course play a factor too.

Xray
19-04-2010, 01:50 PM
Cowley got 3,407 votes the last time. He did though manage to overtake Sinn Feins Gerry Murray and Fianna Fails Frank Chambers before being eliminated.
In 2002 he also proved himself transfer friendly.
I'd have him as a prospect for the last seat if he were to get up around the 9% mark which would mean doubling his vote from the last time. Geography will of course play a factor too.

He should play very heavy on saving the hospital if he wants transfers.

Kid Ryder
19-04-2010, 07:30 PM
He should play very heavy on saving the hospital if he wants transfers.

As far as I know Castlebar General is safe - not even Hanly is looking for its full closure, and given that it's (probably) the next Taoiseach's local hospital it would be safe even if Hanly advocated its closure. The case for removing acute services from Castlebar though is nonsensical in the extreme even though I think it's one of the worst-run hospitals in the country, given the experiences that some of my friends have had there - lousy treatment, winter vomiting bug, misprescription, and more. The idea that nearly 200,000 people in 10% of the entire island's land surface could be left without A&E access not only disgusts me, but frightens me too.

I think that it'll be difficult for Dr. Cowley to stake out any territory on 'saving' the hospital, primarily because he's a Labour candidate now, not a 'hospital independent' candidate, and people are (or at the least, should be) suspicious of 'hospital independents', given the following track record from 2002:

Paddy McHugh - Galway East - Portiuncula Hosp. still under threat.
Liam Twomey - Wexford - Joined FG, Wexford General acute services still under threat.
James Breen - Clare - Ennis General acute services gone (AFAIK).
Paudge Connolly - Cavan-Monaghan - nearly joined FF, Monaghan Hosp. acute services gone. Pat Joe Walsh, Bronagh Livingstone, RIP.

An astute (or even still-breathing) person can work out that electing 'hospital candidates' isn't going to matter a damn to the interests behind the 'rationalisation' of healthcare. I'd say the only politician that'll swing anything for any hospital under this agenda would want to be a very big beast indeed; somehow the good doctor does not remotely fit that description. Furthermore, his record in the Corrib Gas fiasco doesn't speak volumes for him as a politician who can secure results for his constituents (I think he played a blinder for Shell though!).

homer
23-04-2010, 06:20 PM
Word in political circles in Mayo is that both of Labour's existing town councillors Barrett in Castlebar and Keith Martin in Westport were hearing rumours of Cowleys recruitment to the LP before they heard themselves from HQ. While they both publicly welcomed Dr Cowleys arrival they and their supporters, who have valiantly campaigned for a minority cause in Mayo, are not happy campers over this.

C. Flower
23-04-2010, 06:29 PM
Parachuting in of candidates is a high risk business, as we've seen over the last year with George Lee.

Digger Out
23-04-2010, 06:47 PM
Cowley will take no seat in Mayo. He is seen as an opportunist and high earning Doctor - 500,000 a year. His roots are in FF and he canvassed for Bev. Flynn in by election in 1994. He might do better as Independent again, with FF in meltdown.

Xray
23-04-2010, 07:22 PM
The dye is cast. Labour need to start thinking big and running flags up the pole like this one. The need to make a few break through moves.
Kid Ryder you make some valid points, but if Labour want to replace FF the need to start getting their hands dirty, they need non-ideologues to votes from them in numbers.