Easter Island Heads Have Bodies

[Andrew49]

http://i.imgur.com/ENoeh.jpg
The Moai “heads” on Easter Island have bodies. Because some of the statues are set deep into the ground, and because the heads on the statues are disproportionately large, many people [] tend to think of them as just big heads. But the bodies (generally not including legs, though there is at least one kneeling statue) are there — in many cases, underground. What’s even more interesting — there are petroglyphs (rock markings) that have been preserved below the soil level, where
they have been protected from erosion.

Easter Island Statue Project (http://www.eisp.org/3879/)

[5intheface]

pffft! Newgrange has wheels.

[Holly]

We never would have guessed this.
It is believed that the islanders turned their backs on this religion when their society imploded.

[eamo]

We never would have guessed this.
It is believed that the islanders turned their backs on this religion when their society imploded.
I read one theory that making the statues was the reason for their destruction. They spent so much energy and time on this project and de-forrested their islands, that they destroyed themselves. Got to be a lesson there somewhere for us.

[C. Flower]

Wonderful. I had no idea.

We had a "Book of the Month" thread way back on Machine Nation on Jared Diamond's "Collapse."

It goes into the ecological causes for the societal collapse. But the introduction of disease by sailors and kidnapping and murder of inhabitants seemed to have been the biggest blow. Diamond looked at progressive environmental degradation and depletion on a few different islands. The most successful and sustainable island population was the one that practiced infanticide and abortion to keep population levels down.:eek:

http://machinenation.forumakers.com/t351-book-of-the-month-april-may-08-collapse-by-jared-diamond-diamond-video-posted-26-april

[musashi]

Far fricken out. Maybe the glyphs discovered will go some way explaining what the hell happened to them.

How the crap did they place this rock ffs, it's gotta be 20 tonnes.

[fluffybiscuits]

Far fricken out. Maybe the glyphs discovered will go some way explaining what the hell happened to them.

How the crap did they place this rock ffs, it's gotta be 20 tonnes.

There was a great piece on Timeteam years ago. What they did when building stone henge was transport them for miles on logs (the huge flag stones) , the very same could have been done on Easter Island. Would love to know what the language is and if it has been deciphered yet

[sinsin]

There was a great piece on Timeteam years ago. What they did when building stone henge was transport them for miles on logs (the huge flag stones) , the very same could have been done on Easter Island. Would love to know what the language is and if it has been deciphered yet

It has been noted that the Indus valley script shares many similar symbols to 'Rongo-Rongo'.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Easter%20island%20pics/rongorongo.jpg

[Ah Well]

There was a great piece on Timeteam years ago. What they did when building stone henge was transport them for miles on logs (the huge flag stones) , the very same could have been done on Easter Island. Would love to know what the language is and if it has been deciphered yet

Speaking of Time Team, yer man in the suave blue outfit looking up could be a younger Mick Aston ... I can just visualise Tony Robinson on top of the head rambling off in tangents :D

[sinsin]

There was a great piece on Timeteam years ago. What they did when building stone henge was transport them for miles on logs (the huge flag stones) , the very same could have been done on Easter Island. Would love to know what the language is and if it has been deciphered yet

Logs? 150 tons....I doubt it.

The islanders have a legend that the statues were moved to the platforms and raised upright by the use of mana, or mind power. Either the god Makemake, or priests or chiefs commanded them to walk or to float through the air, and according to one legend, use was made of a finely crafted stone sphere, 75 cm (2.5 ft) in diameter, called te pito kura (‘the golden navel’ or ‘the navel of light’), to focus the mana.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Easter%20island%20pics/tepitokura.jpg

[Dr. FIVE]

I don't think they were 150, they are carved from ash I think

[sinsin]

The largest in a quarry is estimated at between 145-165 tons.
The largest erected is 82 tons.

[sinsin]

I don't think they were 150, they are carved from ash I think
Yes, volcanic rock.

[Cato]

Logs? 150 tons....I doubt it.

The islanders have a legend that the statues were moved to the platforms and raised upright by the use of mana, or mind power. Either the god Makemake, or priests or chiefs commanded them to walk or to float through the air, and according to one legend, use was made of a finely crafted stone sphere, 75 cm (2.5 ft) in diameter, called te pito kura (‘the golden navel’ or ‘the navel of light’), to focus the mana.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Easter%20island%20pics/tepitokura.jpg

And do you attach any credence to this legend?

[sinsin]

And do you attach any credence to this legend?

Fascinating area.
We could not build the Great Pyramid.
But our illiterate,savage ancestors could move weights of which we are currently incapable.
Something is wrong with our current "official" history.

The Unfinished Obelisk, Aswan, Egypt. - Measures 120-feet (42m) and would have weighed over 1,168 tons when complete.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Egyptian%20pics/unfinished%20obelisk.jpg

[sinsin]

The Colossi of Memnon, Egypt. - These two giants were built from a single piece of stone each. They are orientated towards the sunrise at winter solstice.

Estimated 2 x 1,000 tons.

The statues are made from blocks of quartzite sandstone which was stone quarried at el-Gabal el Ahmar (near modern-day Cairo) and transported 420 miles over land without using the Nile to Thebes. They are too heavy to transport upstream on the Nile.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Egyptian%20pics/collossi%20of%20memnon.jpg

[Dr. FIVE]

http://www.gifs-paradise.com/animated_gifs/ufo/animated-gifs-ufos-013.gif

[Cato]

Fascinating area.
We could not build the Great Pyramid.
But our illiterate,savage ancestors could move weights of which we are currently incapable.
Something is wrong with our current "official" history.

The Unfinished Obelisk, Aswan, Egypt. - Measures 120-feet (42m) and would have weighed over 1,168 tons when complete.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Egyptian%20pics/unfinished%20obelisk.jpg

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080328104302.htm

[sinsin]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080328104302.htm
:)

Look up Tiahuanaco and Cuzco.Pre Inca.
"copper chisels":)
Laser percision,interlocking stones,Melted together.:confused:

http://members.tripod.com/~kon_artz/cultures/12angsto.jpg

[jmcc]

Fascinating area.
We could not build the Great Pyramid.
But our illiterate,savage ancestors could move weights of which we are currently incapable.
Something is wrong with our current "official" history.Yeah! It is written by historians rather than by engineers, architects and planners. The sophisticated knowledge is not shared with the masses and so, as time passes, it becomes lost or shrouded in myth and legend to protect it.

Regards...jmcc

[Dr. FIVE]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080328104302.htm

cheers for that

[sinsin]

Yeah! It is written by historians rather than by engineers, architects and planners. The sophisticated knowledge is not shared with the masses and so, as time passes, it becomes lost or shrouded in myth and legend to protect it.

Regards...jmcc

It does not fit in with Darwinism, therefore many anamolies are hidden and ignored.

[Cato]

It does not fit in with Darwinism, therefore many anamolies are hidden and ignored.

Ah now...

[Sam Lord]

It does not fit in with Darwinism, therefore many anamolies are hidden and ignored.

Let me guess... aliens built them.

[PaddyJoe]

It does not fit in with Darwinism, therefore many anamolies are hidden and ignored.

What does Darwin have to do with it?
:confused:

[sinsin]

Let me guess... aliens built them.

No....Drooling half ape proles living in a socalist Utopia.:D

[sinsin]

What does Darwin have to do with it?
:confused:

Instead of advancing....maybe we have regressed.
Does not fit The Theorey of Evolution.

That is the basics for Eugenics and rule by our elite/Scientocracy.
Our version of Divine Right to Rule.

Despite being STILL unproven,it is now taught as fact.

The Earth is flat.
The sun orbits the Earth.
Same as it ever was.:(

[C. Flower]

Fascinating area.
We could not build the Great Pyramid.
But our illiterate,savage ancestors could move weights of which we are currently incapable.
Something is wrong with our current "official" history.

The Unfinished Obelisk, Aswan, Egypt. - Measures 120-feet (42m) and would have weighed over 1,168 tons when complete.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Egyptian%20pics/unfinished%20obelisk.jpg

Fascinating indeed. But you have not produced anything at all to substantiate any of these claims.

How the stones at Stonehenge could have been raised by quite a small number of people -

http://www.engineering-timelines.com/how/stonehenge/stonehenge_02.asp

[sinsin]

Fascinating indeed. But you have not produced anything at all to substantiate any of these claims.

How the stones at Stonehenge could have been raised by quite a small number of people -

http://www.engineering-timelines.com/how/stonehenge/stonehenge_02.asp

I do not know how any of these stones were raised.
We could not do it now with all our advances and technology.
But we are expected to believe that savages without the wheel with bronze tools,ropes and logs did.

The unfinished stones in the quarries pose an enigma.
How was the under side cut loose and finished with laser precision?

[C. Flower]

I do not know how any of these stones were raised.
We could not do it now with all our advances and technology.
But we are expected to believe that savages without the wheel with bronze tools,ropes and logs did.

The unfinished stones in the quarries pose an enigma.
How was the under side cut loose and finished with laser precision?

I don't find it in the least mysterious and these things have been replicated in experiments, if you would like to read the linked material posted.

[sinsin]

I don't find it in the least mysterious and these things have been replicated in experiments, if you would like to read the linked material posted.

We are not discussing the same thing.
Stonehenge is very crude with 40 ton rocks.
I am referring to 1,000 ton plus precisley cut and finished items.

[C. Flower]

We are not discussing the same thing.
Stonehenge is very crude with 40 ton rocks.
I am referring to 1,000 ton plus precisley cut and finished items.

With individual stones of 1,000 tons ?

Where is that ?

[sinsin]

With individual stones of 1,000 tons ?

Where is that ?

Go to Page 1 of the thread.I have posted some pics and links.

[Dr. FIVE]

Instead of advancing....maybe we have regressed.
Does not fit The Theorey of Evolution.



http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8595/burlisconyfp.png

You do know you're on the internet, and we have dentists

[sinsin]

The Rigveda is the worlds' oldest text.
Western scholars reckon 2000 BC.
Eastern scholars using astrological dating think 8000 BC.

We are Eurocentric.
So it is ignored.
Whiteman rules?

We focus on Babylon,Eygypt.Greece and Rome.
Some of us are aware of Sumeria.

But we are ignorant of the Vedas.

"he Rig Veda, the oldest document of the human race includes references to the following modes of transportation:

Jalayan - a vehicle designed to operate in air and water. (Rig Veda 6.58.3)

Kaara- Kaara- Kaara- a vehicle that operates on ground and in water. (Rig Veda 9.14.1)

Tritala- Tritala- Tritala- a vehicle consisting of three stories. (Rig Veda 3.14.1)

Trichakra Ratha - Trichakra Ratha - Trichakra Ratha - a three-wheeled vehicle designed to operate in the air. (Rig Veda 4.36.1)

Vaayu Ratha- Vaayu Ratha- Vaayu Ratha- a gas or wind-powered chariot. (Rig Veda 5.41.6)

Vidyut Ratha- Vidyut Ratha- Vidyut Ratha- a vehicle that operates on power. (Rig Veda 3.14.1).

Kathasaritsagara refers to highly talented woodworkers called Rajyadhara and Pranadhara. The former was so skilled in mechanical contrivances that he could make ocean crossing chariots. And the latter manufactured a flying chariot to carry a thousand passengers in the air. These chariots were stated to be as fast as thought itself. "

[sinsin]

"Reference to Flying vehicles as Vimana occur in the Mahabharata in about 41 places of which the air attack of Salva on Krisna's capital Dwaraka deserve special notice. The Asura king Salva had an aerial flying machine known as Saubha-pura in which he came to attack Dwaraka.


He began to shower hails, and missiles from the sky. As Krishna chased him he went near the sea and landed in the high seas. Then he came back again with his flying machine and gave a tough fight to Krishna staying about one Krosa (about 4,000 ft) above the ground level. Krishna at last threw a powerful ground-to-air weapon which hit the plane in the middle and broke it into pieces. The damaged flying machine fell into the seas. This vivid description of the air attack occurs in the Bhagavata also. We also come across the following references to missiles, armaments, sophisticated war-machines and mechanical contrivances as well as to Vimanas in Mahabharata.

The inscriptions of emperor Asoka are by far the most authentic records in support of the existence of aerial flying vehicles which are mentioned as Vimana. The existence of aerial chariots in whatever form it might be was so well-known that it found a place among the royal edicts of the Emperor Asoka which were executed during his reign from 256 B.C.- 237 B.C. Vatsyana in his Kama Sutra referred to mechanical contrivances in their origin among 64 ancillary Sciences."

[sinsin]

A testimony to ancient metallurgical skills in Delhi, India is called the Ashoka Pillar. Standing over 23 feet, it averages 16 inches in diameter and weighs about 6 tons. The solid wrought-iron shaft is made up of expertly welded discs. An inscription on the base is an epitaph to King Chandra Gupta II, who died in A.D. 413.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/egipto/imagenes/electricidad_egipto_9.gif

Despite being well over a millennium and a half in age, the Pillar's constitution is remarkably preserved. The smooth surface is like polished brass with only occasional instances of pock-marks and weathering. The mystery is that any equivalent mass of iron, subjected to the Indian monsoon rains, winds and temperatures for 1,600 years or more would have been reduced to rust long ago.



Production of the iron and the techniques of preservation are far beyond 5th century abilities. It is probably far older, maybe several thousand years. Who were the mysterious metallurgists who made this wonder, and what happened to their civilization?

[sinsin]

The problem with the above is.....
Now that we have "flying machines",nuclear weapons and genetic engineering......The 10,000? year old manuscript is not only plausible but is more scientifically advanced than we are.:confused:

Do not take my word for it.
Research it for yourselves.
But you may throw Jesus and Darwin out the window.
That is one reason why it is ignored.
It upsets the Jesus Freaks and the Marxists.
They are scared of bursting their little bubbles.

It is in front of your noses,just look.:)

[C. Flower]

The problem with the above is.....
Now that we have "flying machines",nuclear weapons and genetic engineering......The 10,000? year old manuscript is not only plausible but is more scientifically advanced than we are.:confused:

Do not take my word for it.
Research it for yourselves.
But you may throw Jesus and Darwin out the window.
That is one reason why it is ignored.
It upsets the Jesus Freaks and the Marxists.
They are scared of bursting their little bubbles.

It is in front of your noses,just look.:)

I have looked and there is nothing inexplicable or out of time sequence about it. The Egyptians cut with saws, used sand as a matrix, and pulled the stones on sleds, either using oxen or men. They used water to make the ground slippery so that the sled pulled easily.

The documented it themselves.

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/stonework.htm

Year 19, under his majesty the king of Upper and Lower Egypt NyMaatRe, son of Amenemhet, endowed with life, permanence, power like Re.
His majesty has ordered to bring him monuments from this august mountain, from the west of the wadi. The stone was being carved from this western mountain as it had been done before. These stones fell in such a way that they broke and not a pebble was left. Then the overseer of the works, herald of the audience hall, Meri says: One should make a ramp to extract the rock.
Then the ramp was built, these monuments were carved just as he had said. One had never acted so before.
Then he escorted ten statues of august [stone].
His team of quarrymen from the necropolis: twenty men. Workers: thirty men. Many mariners [3]: 2000 men.



......... The stone was dragged with oxen which his m[ajesty] captured [in his] victories [among] the Fenkhu .........
18th dynasty quarry inscription
James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt Part Two, § 27
The detached blocks of stone and finished or possibly just half-finished obelisks were moved to the near-by bank of the Nile. Special barges were built to ship the 100 to 500 ton obelisks downriver.
I inspected the erection of two obelisks ......... built the august boat of 120 cubits in its length, 40 cubits in its width, in order to transport these obelisks. (They) came in peace, safety and prosperity, and landed at Karnak ...... of the city. Its [track] was laid with every pleasant wood.
The biography of Ineni (18th dynasty)

[sinsin]

Maybe.If you believe in Santa Claus.

We cannot build a house

The accuracy of the pyramid's workmanship is such that the four sides of the base have an average error of only 58 millimetres in length.[8] The base is horizontal and flat to within ±15 mm.[9] The sides of the square base are closely aligned to the four cardinal compass points (within 4 minutes of arc)[10] based on true north, not magnetic north, and the finished base was squared to a mean corner error of only 12 seconds of arc.

It was built to an accuracy of better than 0.05%.
We cannot bulid a small house to that accuracy.

[Sam Lord]

"Reference to Flying vehicles as Vimana occur in the Mahabharata in about 41 places of which the air attack of Salva on Krisna's capital Dwaraka deserve special notice. The Asura king Salva had an aerial flying machine known as Saubha-pura in which he came to attack Dwaraka.


He began to shower hails, and missiles from the sky. As Krishna chased him he went near the sea and landed in the high seas. Then he came back again with his flying machine and gave a tough fight to Krishna staying about one Krosa (about 4,000 ft) above the ground level. Krishna at last threw a powerful ground-to-air weapon which hit the plane in the middle and broke it into pieces. The damaged flying machine fell into the seas. This vivid description of the air attack occurs in the Bhagavata also. We also come across the following references to missiles, armaments, sophisticated war-machines and mechanical contrivances as well as to Vimanas in Mahabharata.

The inscriptions of emperor Asoka are by far the most authentic records in support of the existence of aerial flying vehicles which are mentioned as Vimana. The existence of aerial chariots in whatever form it might be was so well-known that it found a place among the royal edicts of the Emperor Asoka which were executed during his reign from 256 B.C.- 237 B.C. Vatsyana in his Kama Sutra referred to mechanical contrivances in their origin among 64 ancillary Sciences."

So it was aliens in flying saucers. I knew it ....

[C. Flower]

Maybe.If you believe in Santa Claus.

We cannot build a house

The accuracy of the pyramid's workmanship is such that the four sides of the base have an average error of only 58 millimetres in length.[8] The base is horizontal and flat to within ±15 mm.[9] The sides of the square base are closely aligned to the four cardinal compass points (within 4 minutes of arc)[10] based on true north, not magnetic north, and the finished base was squared to a mean corner error of only 12 seconds of arc.

It was built to an accuracy of better than 0.05%.
We cannot bulid a small house to that accuracy.

None of your other assertions have stood up to inspection. If you want them to be taken seriously you could produce the source of your alleged facts.

[sinsin]

Based on measurements taken on the north eastern casing stones, the mean opening of the joints is only 0.5 millimetres wide (1/50th of an inch).

Some chisels.:)
Any Brickies on the board?


"Quarrying with ancient tools was hard work. Even the relatively soft lime stone was difficult to cut with Old Kingdom copper saws, and chisels and hard stone like granite was worked with diabase - often called dolerite - hammerstones. Holes were cut into the rock, wooden wedges driven into the slots and moistened. The expanding wood cracked the rock. Doubt has been cast on wood being strong enough for the purpose, but no alternative theories for pharaonic stone extraction have been proposed."

[sinsin]

So it was aliens in flying saucers. I knew it ....

Do not question your religion.
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna.:)

Two legs good,four legs bad.:)

If you were confident of your position,you would not be fearful of considering new information.
By that,I am assuming that you were unfamiliar with the Vedas.

History did not begin with the Communards.:)

[C. Flower]

Based on measurements taken on the north eastern casing stones, the mean opening of the joints is only 0.5 millimetres wide (1/50th of an inch).

Some chisels.:)
Any Brickies on the board?


"Quarrying with ancient tools was hard work. Even the relatively soft lime stone was difficult to cut with Old Kingdom copper saws, and chisels and hard stone like granite was worked with diabase - often called dolerite - hammerstones. Holes were cut into the rock, wooden wedges driven into the slots and moistened. The expanding wood cracked the rock. Doubt has been cast on wood being strong enough for the purpose, but no alternative theories for pharaonic stone extraction have been proposed."

There is nothing there to give any substance to anhistorical technologies being used.

You were kicking up about how impossible it is to move large stones, when it is clearly the case that sleds over wet ground were used.

It would be perfectly easy to test the use of wood.

But if it wasn't wood I see no reason whatsoever to believe that it wasn't another readily available technology.

These people weren't stupid you know. They had a sophisticated society and technology.

[sinsin]

None of your other assertions have stood up to inspection. If you want them to be taken seriously you could produce the source of your alleged facts.

James Cole survey of 1925, "Determination of the Exact Size and Orientation of the Great Pyramid of Giza, SURVEY of EGYPT Paper #39."


Sorry...It is all over the Internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#History_and_description

[C. Flower]

James Cole survey of 1925, "Determination of the Exact Size and Orientation of the Great Pyramid of Giza, SURVEY of EGYPT Paper #39."


Sorry...It is all over the Internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#History_and_description

The pyramids were made out of millions of blocks of stone. It is all over the internet that they were perfectly buildable.

If you look at, say, St. Paul's Cathedral, which was built at the end of the 17th century, it emerged from surroundings of ticky tacky timber and mud structures and was an astounding feat of masonry work and engineering, with a dome of novel and daring structure.

Unfortunately for your thesis, its construction and design processes are well documented and they were indeed amazingly skilled, but perfectly human and using the available technology of the day, developed by human society.

You could look at the Gothic cathedrals, much earlier, and say the same thing.

Agriculturally based societies produced surpluses that enabled them to devote huge resources to the construction of religious structures - and their dependence on weather conditions that were out of their control and beyond their understanding gave them a predisposition to religious belief.

[Sam Lord]

Based on measurements taken on the north eastern casing stones, the mean opening of the joints is only 0.5 millimetres wide (1/50th of an inch).

Some chisels.:)
Any Brickies on the board?



The blocks may have been cast in situ for all you know. If one block was used as part of the form for another there would be hardly any space between them .. only shrinkage in drying.

The thing is that neither you nor I know exactly how it was done. This does not make it impossible nor require us to introduce aliens or other outlandish factors.

[sinsin]

There is nothing there to give any substance to anhistorical technologies being used.

You were kicking up about how impossible it is to move large stones, when it is clearly the case that sleds over wet ground were used.

It would be perfectly easy to test the use of wood.

But if it wasn't wood I see no reason whatsoever to believe that it wasn't another readily available technology.

These people weren't stupid you know. They had a sophisticated society and technology.

Like what?
The three pyramids were built supposedldy within 100 years.
Due North,perfectly aligned with Orions belt.
No proof what so ever of the Grand Pyramid being a burial chamber.

The later pyramids were rougher,smaller as the technology was lost.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Great_Pyramid_Diagram.svg

[C. Flower]

The blocks may have been cast in situ for all you know. If one block was used as part of the form for another there would be hardly any space between them .. only shrinkage in drying.

The thing is that neither you nor I know exactly how it was done. This does not make it impossible nor require us to introduce aliens or other outlandish factors.

There is very little if any mystery about it. It is skilled masonry, made by a sophisticated society.

It often stuns me to look at stone churches and courthouses built in Ireland, built at a time when there were only mud tracks for roads and most people lived in a mud house. But there is no technological mystery about it, only a social absurdity.

[sinsin]

The blocks may have been cast in situ for all you know. If one block was used as part of the form for another there would be hardly any space between them .. only shrinkage in drying.

The thing is that neither you nor I know exactly how it was done. This does not make it impossible nor require us to introduce aliens or other outlandish factors.

I am not introducing aliens.
But I do now realise that our current official narrative of pre history is wrong.
we did not suddenly move from hunter gatherers to 3 or 4 large city civilisations 5,000 years ago.

There are too many anomalies.

We only realised that Newgrange was connected to the winter soltice in 1969.
There was never life on the moon because there was no water....they just discovered!

Einsteins Theory of Relativity has just been disproven.
There is pandemodium among scientists as they recheck Berne for errors.
If they do not find an error it means that all Physics is a load of gibberish.

We drank water from lead pipes for hundreds of years before we realised we were poisoning ourselves.

It is a fascinating field.
Keep an open mind.;)

[C. Flower]

I am not introducing aliens.
But I do now realise that our current official narrative of pre history is wrong.
we did not suddenly move from hunter gatherers to 3 or 4 large city civilisations 5,000 years ago.

There are too many anomalies.

We only realised that Newgrange was connected to the winter soltice in 1969.
There was never life on the moon because there was no water....they just discovered!

Einsteins Theory of Relativity has just been disproven.
There is pandemodium among scientists as they recheck Berne for errors.
If they do not find an error it means that all Physics is a load of gibberish.

We drank water from lead pipes for hundreds of years before we realised we were poisoning ourselves.

It is a fascinating field.
Keep an open mind.;)

There is a lot of work being done on how the shift from hunter gatherer to urban society took place. It is not a mystery. Climate change, that forced agricultural development, was the basis of it. Of course it didn't take place over night.

People have done more than "think about it." They have spend thousands of hours doing systematic archaeological investigation.

What does your point about the lead pipes have to do with your thesis that technologies were introduced by aliens ?

[sinsin]

There is a lot of work being done on how the shift from hunter gatherer to urban society took place. It is not a mystery. Climate change, that forced agricultural development, was the basis of it. Of course it didn't take place over night.

People have done more than "think about it." They have spend thousands of hours doing systematic archaeological investigation.

What does your point about the lead pipes have to do with your thesis that technologies were introduced by aliens ?

There was a Great Flood.
There were many Ice Ages.
There were pole shifts,volcanic eruptions and meteor strikes.
The Earth has went through many cataclysims.

Try to think beyond 5,000 years.

Archaeologists do as they are directed.
Who funds them?
Anything outside the PC fable is ignored or hidden.

Would a Jesuit or Vatican funded Archaeologist announce that Jesus spent his missing years in the Himalayas.:)

The lead pipe reference was to our forebearers who thought that piped water was a great blessing whilst unwittingly poisoning theirselves.
Scientists,politicians.bishops,doctors...none of them had a clue.

We have just discovered that rather than crossing the Ice from Britain to Ireland,the first settelers here were the Basques.
Hundreds of years of official history just dumped by DNA analysis.

Do not be so trusting of Academia.

[Sam Lord]

There was a Great Flood.
There were many Ice Ages.
There were pole shifts,volcanic eruptions and meteor strikes.
The Earth has went through many cataclysims.


How do you know? Scientists cannot be trusted apparently so you must have some other source of knowledge. Is it beamed down to you?




We have just discovered that rather than crossing the Ice from Britain to Ireland,the first settelers here were the Basques.


Really? Ireland was settled by Basques? Hmmm ...who knew.

[C. Flower]

There was a Great Flood.
There were many Ice Ages.
There were pole shifts,volcanic eruptions and meteor strikes.
The Earth has went through many cataclysims.

Try to think beyond 5,000 years.

Archaeologists do as they are directed.
Who funds them?
Anything outside the PC fable is ignored or hidden.

Would a Jesuit or Vatican funded Archaeologist announce that Jesus spent his missing years in the Himalayas.:)

The lead pipe reference was to our forebearers who thought that piped water was a great blessing whilst unwittingly poisoning theirselves.
Scientists,politicians.bishops,doctors...none of them had a clue.

We have just discovered that rather than crossing the Ice from Britain to Ireland,the first settelers here were the Basques.
Hundreds of years of official history just dumped by DNA analysis.

Do not be so trusting of Academia.

Scientific knowledge is developed through a process of investigation, analysis and testing. Part of that process is the correction of errors.

Even with the lead in it, piped water enabled cities to develop, and to some extent protected them from being brought down by cholera. People didn't die of lead poisoning.

As Sam Lord said, if you don't go for the best available scientific evidence, on what do you base your thinking ?

[sinsin]

How do you know? Scientists cannot be trusted apparently so you must have some other source of knowledge. Is it beamed down to you?

That is news to you?



Really? Ireland was settled by Basques? Hmmm ...who knew.

All over the papers and RTE a few years ago.
Previously it was assumed Celts or Nordic types crossed over the ice.
Turns out whilst Ireland and Europe were under a couple of kilometers of ice....The Basque country was a Shangri La.
That is why they are the earliest European inhabitants.
They colonised Ireland.
Their genes still predominate along the West coast.

None of this was known until the mapping of the human genome.
So everything you were taught about the origional Irish by historians/scientists/academics was speculative rubbish.

Keep an open mind.

[sinsin]

Scientific knowledge is developed through a process of investigation, analysis and testing. Part of that process is the correction of errors.

Even with the lead in it, piped water enabled cities to develop, and to some extent protected them from being brought down by cholera. People didn't die of lead poisoning.

As Sam Lord said, if you don't go for the best available scientific evidence, on what do you base your thinking ?

I have to disagree with you about the lead poisoning as I was involved campaigning for their removal.Ancient Romans died from its use for transporting water.

I will slow down on my attck on science.;)

There are very few independent scientists.
They depend on research grants and universities.
These are controlled by the Foundations.
You only research what they want and they own and control your work.
I assume you agree with that.

If a scientist steps outside the system,he is blacklisted.
Sam Smyth:)

Big Business,the Banksters set and control the scientific agenda.
Who else finances it?
The USSR researched abiotic oil,found it and now they and Brazil are now swimming in it.
Dare you mention it here or in the West?
No...you will be attacked and accused of being crazy.

Once you escape the West....after a few years of meeting free minded people with a different educational experience....you begin to see.

Here,we are in a bubble.
School system,media,books.politics,entertainment,discussi on.....the parameters are defined for us...Am I Left or Right?

Plus la change but no change....Ireland,UK,US.Australia ....same politics.same crap but everything remains the same.
Debt slaves who think they are free hypnotised by sports.
College Degree.....taught more one sided rubbish.....curriculum set by the powers who be to ensure that you are not a free thinker.:(

[C. Flower]

All over the papers and RTE a few years ago.
Previously it was assumed Celts or Nordic types crossed over the ice.
Turns out whilst Ireland and Europe were under a couple of kilometers of ice....The Basque country was a Shangri La.
That is why they are the earliest European inhabitants.
They colonised Ireland.
Their genes still predominate along the West coast.

None of this was known until the mapping of the human genome.
So everything you were taught about the origional Irish by historians/scientists/academics was speculative rubbish.

Keep an open mind.

Exactly. A scientific advance.

Where else are you going to get information from ?

[Sam Lord]

All over the papers and RTE a few years ago.
Previously it was assumed Celts or Nordic types crossed over the ice.
Turns out whilst Ireland and Europe were under a couple of kilometers of ice....The Basque country was a Shangri La.
That is why they are the earliest European inhabitants.
They colonised Ireland.
Their genes still predominate along the West coast.

None of this was known until the mapping of the human genome.
So everything you were taught about the origional Irish by historians/scientists/academics was speculative rubbish.

Keep an open mind.

Your thinking is all wonky. You half understand things all the time.

Scientists may have discovered that there are genetic similarities between Irish people and the Basques. This does not mean that "Ireland was colonised by Basques." The people who provided this genetic material to both the Basques and the Irish would have been unrecognisable as either Basque or Irish. Did you think that they spoke Basque, wore red berets and ran with the bulls at Pamplona?

There are also genetic similiarities I am sure between the Irish and people from other parts of the Iberian peninsula. This does not mean that Ireland was colonised by Galacians or the Portuguese.

[sinsin]

Exactly. A scientific advance.

Where else are you going to get information from ?

Now you are going down the RabbitHole.:)
The issue diverges.
Lost Ancient Science,Hidden Science and Rediscovered Science.:D

[Sam Lord]

Exactly. A scientific advance.

Where else are you going to get information from ?

From himself.

Anything that can be fitted into a wacky theory is scientific. The rest is lies paid for by governments and big business.

[Baron von Biffo]

We could not build the Great Pyramid.

Why not?

[sinsin]

Your thinking is all wonky. You half understand things all the time.

Scientists may have discovered that there are genetic similarities between Irish people and the Basques. This does not mean that "Ireland was colonised by Basques." The people who provided this genetic material to both the Basques and the Irish would have been unrecognisable as either Basque or Irish. Did you think that they spoke Basque, wore red berets and ran with the bulls at Pamplona?

There are also genetic similiarities I am sure between the Irish and people from other parts of the Iberian peninsula. This does not mean that Ireland was colonised by Galacians or the Portuguese.

The Irish are not Celts, say experts
Jan Battles
The Times

THE long-held belief that Ireland’s population is descended from the Celts has been disproved by geneticists, who have concluded that they never invaded Ireland.
The research at Trinity College Dublin (TCD) into the origins of Ireland’s population found no substantial evidence of the Celts in Irish DNA, and concludes they never settled here en masse.


The study, part-funded by the National Millennium Committee, has just been published in The American Journal of Human Genetics. It was one of four projects funded by the government under the Genetic History of Ireland programme, which aimed to provide a definitive survey of the origins of the ancient peoples of Ireland.
Part of the project’s brief was to “discover whether there was a large incursion by Celtic people about 2,500 years ago” as was widely believed. After comparing a variety of genetic traits in Irish people with those of thousands of European and Near Eastern inhabitants, the scientists at TCD say there was not.
“Some people would go as far as saying there was total replacement of the population (of Ireland) 2,500 years ago,” said Brian McEvoy, one of the authors. “But if that happened we would definitely be more related to people in central Europe, because the Celts were supposed to have come from there. We’re just not seeing that. We’re seeing something earlier. Our legacy is the result of the first people to settle in Ireland around 9,000 years ago.”
About 15,000 years ago, ice covered Ireland, Britain and a lot of northern Europe so prehistoric man retreated back into Spain, Italy and Greece, which were still fairly temperate. When the ice started melting again around 12,000 years ago, people followed it northwards as areas became habitable again.
“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age,” said McEvoy. “They seem to have come up along the coast through western Europe and arrived in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It’s not due to something that happened 2,500 years ago with Celts. “We have a very old genetic legacy.”
While we may not owe our heritage to the Celts, we are still linked to other populations considered Celtic, such as Scotland and Wales. McEvoy said: “It seems to be more a cultural spread than actual people coming in wiping out and replacing everyone else.”
A PhD student in Trinity’s department of genetics, McEvoy will present the findings tomorrow at the Irish Society of Human Genetics annual meeting.
He and Dan Bradley of TCD took samples of mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited from the mother, from 200 volunteers around Ireland using cheek swabs. They also compiled a database of more than 8,500 individuals from around Europe and analysed them for similarities and matches in the sequences.
They found most of the Irish samples matched with those around Britain and the Pyrenees in Spain. There were some matches in Scandinavia and parts of northern Africa.
“Of the Celtic regions, by far the strongest correspondence is with Scotland,” said Bradley. “It corresponds exactly with language.” While that could be due to the Plantation of Ulster, Bradley said it was more likely due to something much older because the matches occur throughout the whole of Ireland and not just the north.
The geneticists produced a map of Europe with contours linking places that were genetically similar. One contour goes around the edge of the Atlantic, around Wales, Scotland, Ireland and includes Galicia in Spain and the Basque region.
“This isn’t consistent with the idea of a large invasion here around 500BC,” said Bradley. “You would expect some more affinity with central Europe if we owed the bulk of our ancestry to a movement from central Europe but we don’t.”
Some archeologists also doubt there was a Celtic invasion because few of their artifacts have been found in Ireland.

[sinsin]

Originally Posted by Indo
Major genetic surveys of Ireland and Britain have established that the gene pool of both islands is amongst the least diluted in Europe. The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of the ancestors of the Irish and British people were the pioneering settlers who arrived at the end of the last ice age between 17,000 and 8,000 years ago. The inescapable upshot of this is that the Irish are not Celts, any more than the English are Anglo-Saxons.

In fact, both the Irish and the British are Basques, with the Irish significantly more Basque than our neighbours across the pond, who've absorbed more migrations from Europe over the centuries.

Scientists estimate that Ireland's gene pool has changed remarkably little since the first hunter-gatherers from Iberia followed the retreating ice cap, beachcombing northwards and settling this newly exposed and empty land. The dilution rate for Ireland is estimated at a tiny 12%, against 20% for Wales and Cornwall, 30% for Scotland and 33% for England.

The genetics suggest that, with sea levels low, the Basques simply walked to Ireland, becoming cut off generations later when rising seas created the island we know. Ancient Irish legends say that there were six invasions or migrations from the south many generations before the Celts arrived around 300BC.

The evidence suggests that the Celtic language, fashions and technologies which are supposed to define our Irish heritage, were acquired as cultural accessories in the way that today's Irish schoolkids flounce about under the impression that they're gangsta rappers straight out of Compton or Beverly Hills brat-packers.

The Irish and Basques share by far the highest incidence of the R1b gene in Europe, which has a frequency of over 90% in Basque country and almost 100% along parts of Ireland's western seaboard.

If further proof were needed, there's the physical fact that the Basques are distinguished by a very high incidence of fair (and some reddish) hair, pale skin, blue eyes, and, apparently, sticky-out ears.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/dna-blueprint-of-the-irish-revealed-2333700.html

[C. Flower]

The Irish are not Celts, say experts
Jan Battles
The Times
[QUOTE]
THE long-held belief that Ireland’s population is descended from the Celts has been disproved by geneticists, who have concluded that they never invaded Ireland.
The research at Trinity College Dublin (TCD) into the origins of Ireland’s population found no substantial evidence of the Celts in Irish DNA, and concludes they never settled here en masse.


The study, part-funded by the National Millennium Committee, has just been published in The American Journal of Human Genetics. It was one of four projects funded by the government under the Genetic History of Ireland programme, which aimed to provide a definitive survey of the origins of the ancient peoples of Ireland.
Part of the project’s brief was to “discover whether there was a large incursion by Celtic people about 2,500 years ago” as was widely believed. After comparing a variety of genetic traits in Irish people with those of thousands of European and Near Eastern inhabitants, the scientists at TCD say there was not.
“Some people would go as far as saying there was total replacement of the population (of Ireland) 2,500 years ago,” said Brian McEvoy, one of the authors. “But if that happened we would definitely be more related to people in central Europe, because the Celts were supposed to have come from there. We’re just not seeing that. We’re seeing something earlier. Our legacy is the result of the first people to settle in Ireland around 9,000 years ago.”
About 15,000 years ago, ice covered Ireland, Britain and a lot of northern Europe so prehistoric man retreated back into Spain, Italy and Greece, which were still fairly temperate. When the ice started melting again around 12,000 years ago, people followed it northwards as areas became habitable again.
“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age,” said McEvoy. “They seem to have come up along the coast through western Europe and arrived in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It’s not due to something that happened 2,500 years ago with Celts. “We have a very old genetic legacy.”
While we may not owe our heritage to the Celts, we are still linked to other populations considered Celtic, such as Scotland and Wales. McEvoy said: “It seems to be more a cultural spread than actual people coming in wiping out and replacing everyone else.”
A PhD student in Trinity’s department of genetics, McEvoy will present the findings tomorrow at the Irish Society of Human Genetics annual meeting.
He and Dan Bradley of TCD took samples of mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited from the mother, from 200 volunteers around Ireland using cheek swabs. They also compiled a database of more than 8,500 individuals from around Europe and analysed them for similarities and matches in the sequences.
They found most of the Irish samples matched with those around Britain and the Pyrenees in Spain. There were some matches in Scandinavia and parts of northern Africa.
“Of the Celtic regions, by far the strongest correspondence is with Scotland,” said Bradley. “It corresponds exactly with language.” While that could be due to the Plantation of Ulster, Bradley said it was more likely due to something much older because the matches occur throughout the whole of Ireland and not just the north.
The geneticists produced a map of Europe with contours linking places that were genetically similar. One contour goes around the edge of the Atlantic, around Wales, Scotland, Ireland and includes Galicia in Spain and the Basque region.
“This isn’t consistent with the idea of a large invasion here around 500BC,” said Bradley. “You would expect some more affinity with central Europe if we owed the bulk of our ancestry to a movement from central Europe but we don’t.”
Some archeologists also doubt there was a Celtic invasion because few of their artifacts have been found in Ireland.

Now that's interesting.

The genetic information is fascinating. It will correct a lot of mistaken assumptions. But when did anyone ever claim there was a Celtic invasion that wiped everyone previously here out ?

[sinsin]

Here is map of the frequency of haplogroup R1b, which is the most common Y chromosomal lineage in western Europe.

This is basic stuff guys.
Many of you do not seem to know who you are.:rolleyes:


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/09/R1bmap.JPG

[sinsin]

[quote=sinsin;203019]The Irish are not Celts, say experts
Jan Battles
The Times


Now that's interesting.

The genetic information is fascinating. It will correct a lot of mistaken assumptions. But when did anyone ever claim there was a Celtic invasion that wiped everyone previously here out ?

Here is some greater detail for you.:)
The accepted analysis was that the Celts had wiped out the earlier inhabitants....they were known for their aggressiveness.



The patterns of variation of mtDNA and Y chromosomes resulted in the consensus that ~75% of the ancestors of modern Europeans are descended from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. The proportion of the ancestry contributed by Neolithic farmers decreased from southeast to northwest, converging upon zero in the far reaches of the British Isles and Norden.

R1bmapThis inference was made in large part based upon the contemporary patterns of genetic variation, by assigning modern haplogroups to putative ancient populations.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/09/R1bmap.JPG

The map of the frequency of haplogroup R1b, which is the most common Y chromosomal lineage in western Europe. The frequency is highest among the Basques, who were presumed to be the most pristine reservoir of the genetic substratum of Paleolithic Europe.
The conception here was that the Basques were clearly indigenous to Iberia, they were already there before the arrival of outsiders such as the Celts, Phoenicians, and finally Romans (this has influenced modern Basque nationalism to some extent).

Their non-Indo-European language was assumed to be a relic of many dialects which once existed before Indo-European swept over them. Using R1b, and other haplogroups at high frequency among the “indigenous peoples” of Europe, historical geneticists pegged the ancestral quanta of hypothetical prehistoric groups using these putative indigenes as modern references. But the inferences rested on assumptions, assumptions which couldn’t be directly tested. Until that is another methodological revolution arrived on the scene: the extraction of ancient DNA!

These new waves of results, which came to the fore in the latter 2000s, have unsettled our preconceptions. It now seems that the past was likely more complex than we’d presumed, and the palimpsest of human genetic variation over time may have obscured and clouded our understanding of the map of what once was.

More recently some researches have gone back and looked at the variation within the R1b haplogroup, specifically the subclade which is very common in Western Europe, R1b1b2, and concluded that in fact it was most diverse in the eastern Mediterranean.

The most plausible inference to be made from this was that the R1b1b2 originated to the east, and spread to the west, rising in frequency due to genetic drift as populations went through bottlenecks and then rapidly expanded in size.

Additionally, the last common ancestor of these lineages was on the order of ~10,000 years ago.
This naturally upends the model which geneticists were confidently pushing forward in the early 2000s, shutting the door on debates as to the provenance of modern Europeans and their relationship to Ice Age hunter-gatherers.
A follow up paper rebutted this new claim as to the origin and expansion of R1b1b2. What had been a stable and conventional area of historical population genetics has now been thrown into tumult, and researchers are looking more closely at the uniparental lineages which had had their time in the sun. Or so it seemed.

So with that background, a paper in The European Journal of Human Genetics steps into the “R1b controversy,” leaning to the side of those who argue for its origin more recently among Neolithic farmers. A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe:

The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.

[Sam Lord]

The Irish are not Celts, say experts
Jan Battles
The Times



Thanks for posting all that stuff but I was actually quite aware of the latest research regarding the genetic links of the Irish people.

My actual quibble was your contention that Ireland had been colonised by Basques.

[sinsin]

Thanks for posting all that stuff but I was actually quite aware of the latest research regarding the genetic links of the Irish people.

My actual quibble was your contention that Ireland had been colonised by Basques.

MMM.
I get you.
But Newgrange (5,000 years old) and the Dolmen are not Celtic.
So it is fair to assume that they were well spread throughout Ireland.
Unless another culture colonised us between them and the Celts.

But I am open to correction.:)

[Ah Well]

MMM.
I get you.
But Newgrange (5,000 years old) and the Dolmen are not Celtic.
So it is fair to assume that they were well spread throughout Ireland.
Unless another culture colonised us between them and the Celts.

But I am open to correction.:)

Right ... we're into stuff like the Fir Bolg and the Tuatha De Danann now I guess .. this is all gone terribly off topic folks, time to get back there perhaps

[sinsin]

Right ... we're into stuff like the Fir Bolg and the Tuatha De Danann now I guess .. this is all gone terribly off topic folks, time to get back there perhaps

Sorry.:)
But when we do not know about Ireland and the Basques,what would we know about Easter Island.:D

We should open a thread titled Historical Anomalies.

[Fermoy]

"



From this post on , the thread has flown way off topic.
Please respect Polynesia and it's history .

If you Europeans wish to discuss the history of your construction industry , please do so elsewhere on the appropriate thread.

[sinsin]

From this post on , the thread has flown way off topic.
Please respect Polynesia and it's history .

If you Europeans wish to discuss the history of your construction industry , please do so elsewhere on the appropriate thread.

:D

[Fermoy]

:D
Do you have a problem with keeping threads on topic ?

[sinsin]

Do you have a problem with keeping threads on topic ?
Are you lost?
No Israelis here.

[C. Flower]

From this post on , the thread has flown way off topic.
Please respect Polynesia and it's history .

If you Europeans wish to discuss the history of your construction industry , please do so elsewhere on the appropriate thread.

Point taken.

[Ah Well]

Ok folks;

1. This Thread previously did go off topic
2. I posted to such an effect on this Thread recently
3. Since then it's gone off topic with a discussion coming about from it's having gone off topic
4. It will have to locked if this doesn't stop immediately. Folk are quite free to use PM with each other if they wish to discuss matters, and which be should in a constructive and meaningful manner

[Fermoy]

Are you lost?
No Israelis here.
What part of keeping threads on topic do you fail to understand ?

[Fermoy]

This book "The Statues that Walked" appears to be well researched and written , and may be of help to those who have a genuine interest in the topic.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/easterislandchile/fr/Unraveling-The-Mystery-Of-Easter-Island.htm

I'd like to read it myself , but due to the earthquake destruction here in Otautahi , we have few libraries left open , and those that are , are small suburban ones .

Here is the web page that put me on to the above book
http://archaeology.about.com/od/eterms/qt/easter_island.htm


These pages are a well written and well photographed first hand account of a visit to the Moai .
http://home.comcast.net/~flaatnet/chile2003/restmoai.html

http://home.comcast.net/~flaatnet/chile2003/consmoai.html

http://home.comcast.net/~flaatnet/chile2003/destmoai.html

[Hapax]

This book "The Statues that Walked" appears to be well researched and written , and may be of help to those who have a genuine interest in the topic.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/easterislandchile/fr/Unraveling-The-Mystery-Of-Easter-Island.htm

I came across this counter-argument (to that pushed by Jared Diamond) a couple of years ago in Charles C. Mann's terrific book 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Colum bus)

Here's a review by Mann of The Statues that Walked:


Oral tradition said that the statues walked into their places. Oral tradition was correct, the authors say. By shaping the huge statues just right, the islanders were able to rock them from side to side, moving them forward in a style familiar to anyone who has had to move a refrigerator. Walking the statues, the authors show in experiments, needed only 15 or 20 people.

In a 2007 article in Science, Mr. Diamond estimated that hundreds of laborers were needed to move the statues, suggesting that the eastern settlements of the island alone had to have "a population of thousands"—which in turn was proof of the island's destructive overpopulation. By showing that the statues could have been moved by much fewer people, Messrs. Hunt and Lipo have removed one of the main supports of the ecocide theory and the parable about humankind it tells.

http://on.wsj.com/nRMj7n

[C. Flower]

I came across this counter-argument (to that pushed by Jared Diamond) a couple of years ago in Charles C. Mann's terrific book 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Colum bus)

Here's a review by Mann of The Statues that Walked:



http://on.wsj.com/nRMj7n

That seems to me to be very reasonable. There are a lot of extraordinary assumptions and guesses made in Collapse. The simplest explanation is usually the best.

Having read up about how the Egyptians moved large stones, it also seems possible that they used sleds - flattened tree trunks/planks, slid over wet ground. This would also have only needed a couple of dozen people max.

[Fermoy]

This method of Moai transportation is worthy of consideration .



Charles Love experimented with a 10-ton replica. His first experiment found rocking the statue to walk it was too unstable over more than a few hundred yards. He then found that placing the statue upright on two sled runners atop log rollers, 25 men were able to move the statue 150 feet (46 m) in two minutes. In 2003, further research indicated this method could explain the regularly spaced post holes where the statues were moved over rough ground. He suggested the holes contained upright posts on either side of the path so that as the statue passed between them, they were used as cantilevers for poles to help push the statue up a slope without the requirement of extra people pulling on the ropes and similarly to slow it on the downward slope. The poles could also act as a brake when needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moai

[fluffybiscuits]

I came across this counter-argument (to that pushed by Jared Diamond) a couple of years ago in Charles C. Mann's terrific book 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Colum bus)

Here's a review by Mann of The Statues that Walked:



http://on.wsj.com/nRMj7n

Its almost like over population on a grand scale. A nation that for years survived and lived off the land used up its resources and their population fell. All that is left are the stone heads as a mark of who they were. Chilling thought of what we are capable of as humans !

[C. Flower]

Its almost like over population on a grand scale. A nation that for years survived and lived off the land used up its resources and their population fell. All that is left are the stone heads as a mark of who they were. Chilling thought of what we are capable of as humans !

It didn't help them that they were infected with disease by sailors - without having any protective immunity - and also many were kidnapped for servitude.

But certainly, the balance between population and the natural resources went badly out of kilter.

[Bex]

Yes, we can be pretty stupid, can't we?

Am I the only person here who seems to feel that the statue (way back on page one) is actually holding his willy? Would seem to be some kind of fertility message of some sort. Would be interesting to see what the other bodies look like, if excavated.

[Fermoy]

Its almost like over population on a grand scale. A nation that for years survived and lived off the land used up its resources and their population fell. All that is left are the stone heads as a mark of who they were. Chilling thought of what we are capable of as humans !
Much like the various rock moving methods that have been put forward over the years, that is merely a theory . One that has many variations . None of them proven .



Here is another

....... Next, they proposed, based on DNA evidence and chewed palm remains in the Journal of Archaeological Science, that Polynesian rats brought with those immigrants had been the culprits behind deforestation, eating palm tree nuts.
Without predators to keep rat numbers in check, the rodents ate most of the seeds and the older trees had mainly died out without reproducing by 1772 when Europeans arrived in ships. Those Europeans wiped out the islanders, they suggested, through disease and later enslavement. "It was genocide, not ecocide, that caused the demise of the Rapanui. An ecological catastrophe did occur on Rapa Nui, but it was the result of a number of factors, not just human short-sightedness," Hunt wrote in The American Scientist magazine. ........
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2009-11-13-easter-island_N.htm

[Bex]

So Master Stonemasons, or Master Baiters....we make the call, eh??? :)

[Fermoy]

Yes, we can be pretty stupid, can't we?

Am I the only person here who seems to feel that the statue (way back on page one) is actually holding his willy? Would seem to be some kind of fertility message of some sort. Would be interesting to see what the other bodies look like, if excavated.
If you look closer , you will see that the Moai is not 'holding his willy' , but rather framing it with his hands .
Here in Polynesia , that sculptural body language can show the image to be an ancestor of those who contracted the work .
So in a roundabout way you in the paddock on that one .

[fluffybiscuits]

Much like the various rock moving methods that have been put forward over the years, that is merely a theory . One that has many variations . None of them proven .



Here is another

From what is out there then it was one giant environmental disaster plus as CF said the colonialist aspirations probably contributed to the downfall of the Easter Island civilisation.

[Fermoy]

From what is out there then it was one giant environmental disaster plus as CF said the colonialist aspirations probably contributed to the downfall of the Easter Island civilisation.
The depletion of resources on Pacific islands over the centuries contributed in no small part to the gradual migration of the people across the whole of the Polynesian Rectangle .
Those resources include land shrinkage due to the rise in sea levels, and drought due to lack of rainfall.
Both of those are a major issue at this very minute .

Because Pacific Islanders experienced resource depletion for thousands of years , a culture practice to address it evolved long ago .
Outsiders lack of knowledge about Rahui ( prohibition) leads them to come up with fanciful stories about a highly intelligent and resourceful people destroying the very forests that sustain the ecosystem that makes their existence possible .

[C. Flower]

The depletion of resources on Pacific island over the centuries contributed in no small part to the gradual migration of the our people across the whole of the Polynesian Rectangle .
Those resources include land shrinkage due to the rise in sea levels and drought due to lack of rainfall.
Both of those are a major issue at this very minute .

Because Pacific Islanders experienced resource depletion for thousands of years , a culture practice to address it evolved long ago .
Outsiders lack of knowledge about Rahui ( prohibition) leads them to come up with fanciful stories about a highly intelligent and resourceful people destroying the very forests that sustain the ecosystem that makes their existence possible .

I wasn't impressed with Diamond's interpretation of events, as he seemed determined to make the facts fit his thesis, rather than the other way around.

Rats (brought in for food) eating seagull eggs does seem to have been one of the things that reduced the island's food source - importation of new, damaging, invasive species has gone with most migrations, including modern ones.

What did happen to the forests ? And was birth control or infanticide practiced, as far as is known ?

[fluffybiscuits]

The depletion of resources on Pacific islands over the centuries contributed in no small part to the gradual migration of the people across the whole of the Polynesian Rectangle .
Those resources include land shrinkage due to the rise in sea levels, and drought due to lack of rainfall.
Both of those are a major issue at this very minute .

Because Pacific Islanders experienced resource depletion for thousands of years , a culture practice to address it evolved long ago .
Outsiders lack of knowledge about Rahui ( prohibition) leads them to come up with fanciful stories about a highly intelligent and resourceful people destroying the very forests that sustain the ecosystem that makes their existence possible .

The Indians in the Amazon did it for years. They would just cut back part of the forst they needed to ensure it would grow back and now the use of slash and burn techniques leaves vast swathes unable to sustainably grow back. Thanks for filling in the gaps for me there in relation to the Polynesians,something I could do with reading up on to be honest!

[Fermoy]

I wasn't impressed with Diamond's interpretation of events, as he seemed determined to make the facts fit his thesis, rather than the other way around.

Rats (brought in for food) eating seagull eggs does seem to have been one of the things that reduced the island's food source - importation of new, damaging, invasive species has gone with most migrations, including modern ones.

What did happen to the forests ? And was birth control or infanticide practiced, as far as is known ?
No one knows for sure if rats were brought in for food . What we do know is that they stow away on boats , always have . And they breed like rabbits , eating everything in sight .

Population control is not something that is commonly practiced when the population is declining .
As we can see , the numbers in Rapa Nui rose as they recovered from each catastrophe .

[Fermoy]

The Indians in the Amazon did it for years. They would just cut back part of the forst they needed to ensure it would grow back and now the use of slash and burn techniques leaves vast swathes unable to sustainably grow back. Thanks for filling in the gaps for me there in relation to the Polynesians,something I could do with reading up on to be honest!
Yes you could , especialy if you are going to take part in a decusion regarding Polynesia .
If and when you do , you will learn that the Amazon Basin and it's "Indians" are a world away from us in Polynesia , and from our cultural practices .

[fluffybiscuits]

Yes you could , especialy if you are going to take part in a decusion regarding Polynesia .
If and when you do , you will learn that the Amazon Basin and it's "Indians" are a world away from us in Polynesia , and from our cultural practices .

:)

Any recommended reading?

[Fermoy]

:)

Any recommended reading?
Read whatever your research brings forth .

I didn't learn any that from a book , I learnt it in life , from those around me .

[fluffybiscuits]

Read whatever your research brings forth .

I didn't learn any that from a book , I learnt it in life , from those around me .

Im not lucky enough to live in the Pacific ;)

[Fermoy]

Im not lucky enough to live in the Pacific ;)
I don't live in Europe , never been there , but I can still do research about the place , its people cultures , etc , and I do

[fluffybiscuits]

I don't live in Europe , never been there , but I can still do research about the place , its people cultures , etc , and I do

Im giving you a chance to impart what sources you use on to me! I want to know that information Im reading is good quality ! ;)

[Fermoy]

Im giving you a chance to impart what sources you use on to me! I want to know that information Im reading is good quality ! ;)

You are what ? Get real . :D
Did you think that I learnt from books ?
Some of the sources are dead , some live but are very old.
As far as I know one has returned to Rapa Nui .
Being of this place , Polynesia , is a source in itself I 'spose.

Much has been written about Europe over the centuries , by the Europeans themselves . The place is an open book.
Not so Rapa Nui . Very little has been recorded , and most , if not all , by strangers who had know idea or understanding of what they were seeing and experiencing , and what came before it.

Your best bet is research , in books and the like , and compare that with what you know of Polynesia as a whole .
Beyond that I cannot help you .

[C. Flower]

Im giving you a chance to impart what sources you use on to me! I want to know that information Im reading is good quality ! ;)

There are a few good sources linked here, Fluffy.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showpost.php?p=203101&postcount=79

Jared Diamond's Collapse is interesting - I don't agree with his interpretation but it's full of information.

[fluffybiscuits]

Thanks for the links. Its hard to find decent links and sources these days so much crap! :)

[C. Flower]

http://www.philipcoppens.com/easterisle01.jpg



Well, I never...



http://www.thethinkbox.ca/2012/05/10/easter-island-heads-have-bodies/

[Andrew49]

And it appears they're moving Easter Island Heads Have Bodies (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=10188)

[C. Flower]

And it appears they're moving Easter Island Heads Have Bodies (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=10188)

My head seems to be missing its memory...

I've merged the threads :)