ETA and Post ETA - Basque Separatism and Spanish Politics

[C. Flower]

I'm not familiar with the history of ETA in any detail. Paddy Woodworth has written a review of the history of Basque Separatism in today's IT, in the run up to the Spanish elections next week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/1112/1224307441287.html

Basque separatism's history has been quite closely interlinked with that of Irish nationalism, and seems at the moment to be focused on electoral ambition, through Bildu, a coalition supporting ETA's aims but opposed to violence.

[Holly]

The Parti Popular are likely to take control of Spain in the next election mainly because the state of the economy and the Basques will find Madrid will show them a deaf ear.

[PaddyJoe]

I'm not familiar with the history of ETA in any detail. Paddy Woodworth has written a review of the history of Basque Separatism in today's IT, in the run up to the Spanish elections next week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/1112/1224307441287.html

Basque separatism's history has been quite closely interlinked with that of Irish nationalism, and seems at the moment to be focused on electoral ambition, through Bildu, a coalition supporting ETA's aims but opposed to violence.

That is an excellent piece by Paddy Woodworth. I remember years ago reading up on Basque nationalism and getting seriously bogged down in the complexities of multiple political and military splits and factions since 1959.
The PSOE invested a lot of political capital in getting this renunciation of violence from ETA before the 20N election.
It's unlikely to do them much good though with the latest polls showing a gap of 10% between themselves and the Partido Popular.

[fluffybiscuits]

Just been reading up on them. They got kicked to the kerb because of the reaction to the Madrid bombing and now are back in power because of the reaction to the current govt on the debt and economic crisis. Is this a case of the devil you know is better than the devil you dont?

Basque seprastists, dont have much time for them they are the Spanish/Basque equivalent of IRA and Sinn Fein, no thanks...

[Ogiol]

So there's no thread on ''regional'' elections in the spanish state. But today there are national elections in the basque country (part of) and galiza (maybe galicia is more common). Ill set the stall out...

In galiza it's fierce boring. There is only ever 1 or 2 ''real'' seats up for grabs and that is how it has been for a while there now. What does this mean, you say? well, that there is a rock solid conservative vote where is around exactely 50% of the electorate. This means that the relevant question in Galiza is whether the PP (unPopular Party) will win an overall majority of 1 or two? or will the nationalist (BNG majoritarilly) or pseudo-socialist (PSOE-Galicia branch) increase their vote enought to gain enough seats to form a coalition.

My predictions are that itll be PP 37 vs. PSOE 18 + BNG 20. So we will see a coalition ... but maybe not...

The basque country is alot more interesting. 4 main parties and several smaller parties.

2 Basque nationalist parties (PNV EAJ (right wing) and (EH Bildu (left wing)

2 Spanish nationalist parties PSE (psoe) and PP (we all know themense).

Currently the 2 spanish parties have been government for the past legislature, though they have always been in a minority since democracy. How, you say? well the ultra-democratic PP prevented any left-independentist parties standing in the last elections leading to a tally of 20% spoiled votes.... Anyway, they changed the rules in an undemocratic way. But now those new rules have been gotten around and EH Bildu are standing for the left independence ppl.

Predictions. (good campaign) looks like the PNV will win, but just by a few seats from EH Bildu, collapse for the PSE and PP.

PNV 26
EH Bildu 24
PSE 14
PP 9
EB (left) 1/2 Who knows what will happen afterwards, ppl saying PNV have already pacted with PSE..... BUT anythings on the cards really!

[Sam Lord]

Why would the PNV not form a coalition with Bildu?

[Ogiol]

Why would the PNV not form a coalition with Bildu?

Because the PNV are fervent right wingers, akin to FG here. Whereas Bildu are more like SYRIZA.

There is talk tho that the PNV may govern in minority, plodding along and pacting with different parties according to the theme. In that case if they decide to step out of ambiguiety and finnaly go for an independent state, Bildu will support them without a doubt. Though, if they have the balls for that, i doubt it. They're all about the money.

Participation down (so far), which in theory is bad for the PSE (PSOE)....

[Ogiol]

Results are in.

Galiza, PP increase their overall majority, to hte suprise of everyone. They got 41 (out of 75) Socialists 18 and the escision from the nationalist party BNG actually took everyone by suprise and got 9 seats, beating the BNG, who got 7.

Galicia never fails to disappoint. Here's the list so far.. Franco, Fraga, Rajoy and Feijoo (present pp leader dude)

In the basque country things panned out as they were expected but a bit better for PNV (27) and a bit worse for EH Bildu (21), socialists 16 and pp 10 + right wing party 1 (UPyD) got the rest.

So there is over 60% majority for pro independence parties there. And it looks like we may well see a push towards independence similar to the catalan one coming from the basques.

How long the castillian empire (spain) will last now is anyones guess!

[PaddyJoe]

Results are in.

Galiza, PP increase their overall majority, to hte suprise of everyone. They got 41 (out of 75) Socialists 18 and the escision from the nationalist party BNG actually took everyone by suprise and got 9 seats, beating the BNG, who got 7.

Galicia never fails to disappoint. Here's the list so far.. Franco, Fraga, Rajoy and Feijoo (present pp leader dude)

In the basque country things panned out as they were expected but a bit better for PNV (27) and a bit worse for EH Bildu (21), socialists 16 and pp 10 + right wing party 1 (UPyD) got the rest.

So there is over 60% majority for pro independence parties there. And it looks like we may well see a push towards independence similar to the catalan one coming from the basques.

How long the castillian empire (spain) will last now is anyones guess!
Very bad result for the PSOE in Galicia. Down 7% on their 2009 showing.
A lot of their support seems to have gone to the left party Alternativa Galega de Esquerda (AGE) which picked up 9 seats.

[Ogiol]

Very bad result for the PSOE in Galicia. Down 7% on their 2009 showing.
A lot of their support seems to have gone to the left party Alternativa Galega de Esquerda (AGE) which picked up 9 seats.

The PSOE seem to be going the way of their sister party in greece, and good riddence. Its well past time that a party claiming to be left, while being vilely economically right wing in gov., stopped decieving ppl and thus stunting the possibliites for real change.

Galicia, though, is a basket case. Ive lost all hope for them, they have a really rotten track record when it comes to political produce:mad:

[Holly]

The Basque Country have returned the two Basque parties in the regional elections. The Spanish parties have less appeal there.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Excellent stuff- and thanks to Ogiol ... between Ogiol and Ephilant we are getting some great political news on this forum!

[fluffybiscuits]

The Basque Country have returned the two Basque parties in the regional elections. The Spanish parties have less appeal there.

Any news from Catalonia? Could be the start of the break up of the Spanish state?

[Ogiol]

Excellent stuff- and thanks to Ogiol ... between Ogiol and Ephilant we are getting some great political news on this forum!


Any news from Catalonia? Could be the start of the break up of the Spanish state?

Youre welcome Con.

Personally, i think the break up of the spanish state is already underway. The catalans are not hiding the fact that after their elections in a months time they mean to call a referendum in 2013 or 2014. The more open and democratic they are about the process the more the mask slips from the madrid elite. There have already been numerous army officials frothing at the mouth calling for martial law in catalonia and the education minister has just called for the ''hispanicization of catalonian children''. You can imagine how that went down in barcelona :rolleyes:

Anyway, if the catalans continue to democratically plod their way to self-determination (which seems more and more likely) then the basques won't be far off either. They how have a 65/35 majority in votes and seats in the basque parliament and they're coy enough to know that if they dont go at the same time as the catalans then they will never be let go.

Madrid is doing nothing but issueing insults and threatening military intervention! gotta love their love of democracy:eek:

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

All Spain needs now is the UK veto-ing in Europe, threatening to walk away and the issue of Gibraltar raising its coffin lid, stepping out and saying 'I'm b-a-c-k' ...

[Ogiol]

All Spain needs now is the UK veto-ing in Europe, threatening to walk away and the issue of Gibraltar raising its coffin lid, stepping out and saying 'I'm b-a-c-k' ...

Hey Con. It's a common belief in spain that Rajoy has been holding off on anouncing the bailout in order to do better in these recent eletions. It kinda worked in that the PP won Galza, but its also popular belief that if a goat were to stand in galiza, with a PP sash, it would get an overall majority.

So its bailout time for Spain, just the opportunity for the catalans and basques to bail-out themselves. Interesting times ahead:eek:

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Interesting parallels between the German Landesbanken system and the Caja system in Spain I think Ogiol.

I know the Caja system is the one that has threatened Spain with an IMF programme again for digging out hyper-gambler banks but what interests me is that the German Landesbanken have certainly been doing the same thing and yet the Germans seem to be getting away with lecturing other nations.

Apart from the Landesbanken in thrall to derivative trades regionally in Germany the major German investment houses are all almost certainly in the red somewhere hidden because of their overseas derivative trades.

Quite interested that Santander (where there is an old Irish connection via the Wild Geese as can be seen with Dona Ana Patricia Botín-Sanz de Sautuola O'Shea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ana_Patricia_Bot%C3%ADn ) seems to be relatively healthy- in fact i wonder whether it is healthier as a regional bank than Deutsche Bank may be.

[Ogiol]

Interesting parallels between the German Landesbanken system and the Caja system in Spain I think Ogiol.

I know the Caja system is the one that has threatened Spain with an IMF programme again for digging out hyper-gambler banks but what interests me is that the German Landesbanken have certainly been doing the same thing and yet the Germans seem to be getting away with lecturing other nations.

Apart from the Landesbanken in thrall to derivative trades regionally in Germany the major German investment houses are all almost certainly in the red somewhere hidden because of their overseas derivative trades.

Quite interested that Santander (where there is an old Irish connection via the Wild Geese as can be seen with Dona Ana Patricia Botín-Sanz de Sautuola O'Shea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ana_Patricia_Bot%C3%ADn ) seems to be relatively healthy- in fact i wonder whether it is healthier as a regional bank than Deutsche Bank may be.

Im not too aware of what the landsbanken are up to, but as per usual im sure its no good :D

The whole caja system was very similar to our credit union system, but at the end of 2011 they converted them into banks. (they werent before that and they were obliged to invest their profits in community schemes- caixaforum is a good example )

The cajas though were basically glorified corrupt credit unions at the whims of the corrupt elite in the different regions, valencia being the best/worst example.

Dont confuse santander with a caja, its a major world bank, in the top ten worldwide Im pretty sure. It was one of the leader companies in what south americans call the 'new colonisation', which took place from mid 90's onwards. Interesting info on Botín's wife, kinda shameful though considering that that family are some of the biggest crooks in spain. And btw, 'Botín' means 'booty' in the pirate sense of the word :eek:, never more apt a name for the biggest banker in spain!!!

[fluffybiscuits]

Youre welcome Con.

Personally, i think the break up of the spanish state is already underway. The catalans are not hiding the fact that after their elections in a months time they mean to call a referendum in 2013 or 2014. The more open and democratic they are about the process the more the mask slips from the madrid elite. There have already been numerous army officials frothing at the mouth calling for martial law in catalonia and the education minister has just called for the ''hispanicization of catalonian children''. You can imagine how that went down in barcelona :rolleyes:

Anyway, if the catalans continue to democratically plod their way to self-determination (which seems more and more likely) then the basques won't be far off either. They how have a 65/35 majority in votes and seats in the basque parliament and they're coy enough to know that if they dont go at the same time as the catalans then they will never be let go.

Madrid is doing nothing but issueing insults and threatening military intervention! gotta love their love of democracy:eek:


The Spanish government is scared of the result of the local elections and what might happen. The hispanacization of children would erode the individual identity of the Catalans and Basques, in fact it can be said that education ministers comments would put him up there with Franco in the context of his comments. The Basques will wait patiently but they could also learn from the Catalans whom never really engaged in violent conflict, not that conflict is unnecessary...

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Im not too aware of what the landsbanken are up to, but as per usual im sure its no good :D

The whole caja system was very similar to our credit union system, but at the end of 2011 they converted them into banks. (they werent before that and they were obliged to invest their profits in community schemes- caixaforum is a good example )

The cajas though were basically glorified corrupt credit unions at the whims of the corrupt elite in the different regions, valencia being the best/worst example.

Dont confuse santander with a caja, its a major world bank, in the top ten worldwide Im pretty sure. It was one of the leader companies in what south americans call the 'new colonisation', which took place from mid 90's onwards. Interesting info on Botín's wife, kinda shameful though considering that that family are some of the biggest crooks in spain. And btw, 'Botín' means 'booty' in the pirate sense of the word :eek:, never more apt a name for the biggest banker in spain!!!


Interesting on the translation of the word 'Botin' .. does seem appropriate. Santander came about when a freebooting Irishman, one of the many wandering Europe in the 18th century somehow managed to get himself installed as Baring Brother's representative in Spain.

Henry O'Shea's descendant Paloma O'Shea the concert pianist is Ana Botin's mother and was ennobled as the 1st Marquesa O'Shea in 2008 by Juan Carlos- something to do with the founding of the College of Music in Madrid and probably great wealth had something to do with it as well it is probably pretty safe to say.

I notice the family is under investigation in Spain for tax evasion currently. That too is not unusual.

Being found guilty- now that would be unusual.

[Apjp]

Just been reading up on them. They got kicked to the kerb because of the reaction to the Madrid bombing and now are back in power because of the reaction to the current govt on the debt and economic crisis. Is this a case of the devil you know is better than the devil you dont?

Basque seprastists, dont have much time for them they are the Spanish/Basque equivalent of IRA and Sinn Fein, no thanks...

Usual nonsense you seem to be spouting lately. Have you only joined the SWP of late? The Basques, like ourselves, are a colonised people. However, unlike ourselves, they may wish for freedom and intend on keeping it when and if they do obtain it.

[fluffybiscuits]

Usual nonsense you seem to be spouting lately. Have you only joined the SWP of late? The Basques, like ourselves, are a colonised people. However, unlike ourselves, they may wish for freedom and intend on keeping it when and if they do obtain it.

They have every right to self determination but violence wont get it for them. There is a certain degree of defence needed against the establishment when they oppress but acting indiscriminately is not the answer.

[Apjp]

They have every right to self determination but violence wont get it for them. There is a certain degree of defence needed against the establishment when they oppress but acting indiscriminately is not the answer.

Why not? It worked for the 26 counties and many other countries.

[fluffybiscuits]

Why not? It worked for the 26 counties and many other countries.

It worked for the 26 but not the 32 as that was the end result wanted ...

[Apjp]

It worked for the 26 but not the 32 as that was the end result wanted ...

Wel you contended that it cannot and does not work. I contended that in the vast majority of cases, yes it does, including in our case. It was British blackmail and a minority of bigots that allowed the Northern statelet to be set up. People who represented a fifth of the Irish population colluded in the sell out of the rest while the negotiators on our behalf were strongarmed into a sort of restricted freedom. Nevertheless, that modicum of independence could not have been won without armed insurgency.

Let me guess, 1916 was a terrible atrocity against Dublin's fine officers?

[fluffybiscuits]

Wel you contended that it cannot and does not work. I contended that in the vast majority of cases, yes it does, including in our case. It was British blackmail and a minority of bigots that allowed the Northern statelet to be set up. People who represented a fifth of the Irish population colluded in the sell out of the rest while the negotiators on our behalf were strongarmed into a sort of restricted freedom. Nevertheless, that modicum of independence could not have been won without armed insurgency.

Let me guess, 1916 was a terrible atrocity against Dublin's fine officers?

Well 1916 was not a terrible resounding success? Why do we cling to the past to look for inspiration, why cant we stay in the present ?

[Apjp]

Well 1916 was not a terrible resounding success? Why do we cling to the past to look for inspiration, why cant we stay in the present ?

Hang on you're a marxist, so don't lecture others on clinging to the past, as your ideology depends on history as much as mine does. 1916 was a success in that it achieved what it set out to achieve, to revive Irish nationalism/republicanism. If you don't know that, pick up a history book. The republican ideals surrounding it as well made it the most important event since 1798. Would it have been better to just have got another 35000 of our forefathers killed in the Somme to further secure British imperial interests?

History cannot be ignored. The Irish are a special case as our history has nothing in common with most european states. We have far more in common with most African nations, which is one reason I found myself hanging around with many arabs and ber bers from Algeria, Tunisia, Libya etc last year as I like their way of thinking. Ireland is extremely different historically and culturally from major european nations, which in my view furthers our cause for regaining sovereignty and leaving the union. Southern Ireland has a proven historical right to self determination, a concept which seems to frighten you.

[fluffybiscuits]

Hang on you're a marxist, so don't lecture others on clinging to the past, as your ideology depends on history as much as mine does. 1916 was a success in that it achieved what it set out to achieve, to revive Irish nationalism/republicanism. If you don't know that, pick up a history book.

In your opinion where did it succeed where 1798 failed?

The current framework of Marxism is evolved into a modern framework and there are a number of different approaches to its application. This has had to be done as the world has changed. Republicanism still looks at a United Ireland, there is going to be a United Ireland more or less delivered through demographics so why not focus on the United Europe front?

[Apjp]

In any case the historical significance of 1916 is hardly dependant on its's success. The 7 signatories knew it would fail, no matter how many srong men came hurrying through from Royal Meath, and they also died in satisfaction knowing that their executions would finally wake up a passive and colonised subject people.

[Apjp]

In your opinion where did it succeed where 1798 failed?

The current framework of Marxism is evolved into a modern framework and there are a number of different approaches to its application. This has had to be done as the world has changed. Republicanism still looks at a United Ireland, there is going to be a United Ireland more or less delivered through demographics so why not focus on the United Europe front?

You are not going to draw me into your utopian vision. I believe in a sovereign Ireland, not in a sovereign superstate, whatever the reason for its existence. A political union is unwise and foolish for small nations. I'm not going to be drawn on something I never pretended to believe in. I believe in goodwill towards all nations, but I do not believe in otehrs running our affairs. You have great difficulty in grasping the fact that left wing republicanism is something Irish people have more historical favour toward, in place of utopian marxism(which you seem focused on rather than mere marxism-i.e. Connolly was very much a republican, so was Frank Ryan).

[fluffybiscuits]

Hang on you're a marxist, so don't lecture others on clinging to the past, as your ideology depends on history as much as mine does. 1916 was a success in that it achieved what it set out to achieve, to revive Irish nationalism/republicanism. If you don't know that, pick up a history book. The republican ideals surrounding it as well made it the most important event since 1798. Would it have been better to just have got another 35000 of our forefathers killed in the Somme to further secure British imperial interests?

History cannot be ignored. The Irish are a special case as our history has nothing in common with most european states. We have far more in common with most African nations, which is one reason I found myself hanging around with many arabs and ber bers from Algeria, Tunisia, Libya etc last year as I like their way of thinking. Ireland is extremely different historically and culturally from major european nations, which in my view furthers our cause for regaining sovereignty and leaving the union. Southern Ireland has a proven historical right to self determination, a concept which seems to frighten you.


Im not frightened of a United Ireland or a sovereign Ireland, its an exercise in complete futility . This idea that we all have to live in our own little pockets of the continent and protect our own little resources is just serving the interests of a select small few. See there again is the reference to historical right, what right? We need to change the idea of a United Ireland to another idea .Is there some erosion of our Irishness somewhere?

[Apjp]

Anyways to answer the question on 1798, I think 1916 succeeded in its aims because its aims were never to succeed, but to arowse and reawaken the concept of an Irish nationality. 1798 would have been the ideal revolution. It was better organized in terms of sheer manpower(100 thousand peasants) but suffered from informers, bad communication, poor weaponry and cowardice from the French.

[fluffybiscuits]

Anyways to answer the question on 1798, I think 1916 succeeded in its aims because its aims were never to succeed, but to arowse and reawaken the concept of an Irish nationality. 1798 would have been the ideal revolution. It was better organized in terms of sheer manpower(100 thousand peasants) but suffered from informers, bad communication, poor weaponry and cowardice from the French.

Can you imagine if that was here now. The shock to the system to attack the social malaise of indifference that has crept into this country.

[Apjp]

Im not frightened of a United Ireland or a sovereign Ireland, its an exercise in complete futility . This idea that we all have to live in our own little pockets of the continent and protect our own little resources is just serving the interests of a select small few. See there again is the reference to historical right, what right? We need to change the idea of a United Ireland to another idea .Is there some erosion of our Irishness somewhere?

Here you are then-you are saying there is no point in Ireland existing as a sovereign nation, independent and free. This is why I am wary of the SWP in particular. Your arguments seem to dissolve into drivel at times especially as your world without borders, on your own previous admission, comes from neoliberal globalization rather than Trotsky's world revolution.

Of course Ireland has a right to independence. Unless we wish to remain a colony of Europe/the Troika. Stop trying to put words in my mouth as well. Your only idea of republicanism is a united Ireland. I have scarcely used that term as it is just a small part of republicanism unless you are from Ulster, much as I think it is worth supporting.

[fluffybiscuits]

Here you are then-you are saying there is no point in Ireland existing as a sovereign nation, independent and free. This is why I am wary of the SWP in particular. Your arguments seem to dissolve into drivel at times especially as your world without borders, on your own previous admission, comes from globalization rather than Trotsky's world revolution.

The idea is that we can form a United European Workers Federal Europe to serve the interests of the workers and protect ourselves from the greed of capitalism. When you have a bloc of individual states all vying for the same multinationals and each being subject to American influence you see that its easy for corporatism to come into Europe and take over .

[Apjp]

Can you imagine if that was here now. The shock to the system to attack the social malaise of indifference that has crept into this country.

Hang on, you just referred to Ireland as this 'country'. I thought you just stated we have no right to independence, and thereby implying that our only hope of liberation is a political union with more powerful nation states? Should we be a country or a colony? You cannot be both, and I struggle to think of any political union in history that allows small nation states their freedom.

[fluffybiscuits]

Here you are then-you are saying there is no point in Ireland existing as a sovereign nation, independent and free. This is why I am wary of the SWP in particular. Your arguments seem to dissolve into drivel at times especially as your world without borders, on your own previous admission, comes from neoliberal globalization rather than Trotsky's world revolution.

Of course Ireland has a right to independence. Unless we wish to remain a colony of Europe/the Troika. Stop trying to put words in my mouth as well. Your only idea of republicanism is a united Ireland. I have scarcely used that term as it is just a small part of republicanism unless you are from Ulster, much as I think it is worth supporting.

My apologies if I put words in your mouth. I will ask again, what is Republicanism if not a United Ireland. An Ireland of self determination ? Does this include NI?

[fluffybiscuits]

Hang on, you just referred to Ireland as this 'country'. I thought you just stated we have no right to independence, and thereby implying that our only hope of liberation is a political union with more powerful nation states? Should we be a country or a colony? You cannot be both, and I struggle to think of any political union in history that allows small nation states their freedom.

I never said however that we have no right, I just asked what right we had ! I think we are at crossed wires here !

[Apjp]

The idea is that we can form a United European Workers Federal Europe to serve the interests of the workers and protect ourselves from the greed of capitalism. When you have a bloc of individual states all vying for the same multinationals and each being subject to American influence you see that its easy for corporatism to come into Europe and take over .

Why do you think this is likely or possible? Isn't Irish sovereignty and left wing republicanism far more appealing to a small country with a long history of seeking freedom which has about 35-40% of people looking for some sort of viable alternative rather than some utopia?

[Apjp]

I never said however that we have no right, I just asked what right we had ! I think we are at crossed wires here !

You said we need to change that right. Implying you disagree with it.

[Apjp]

I think you see where I am going. Political unions are disastrous for small nations. I'll not be convinced otherwise.

[fluffybiscuits]

Hang on, you just referred to Ireland as this 'country'. I thought you just stated we have no right to independence, and thereby implying that our only hope of liberation is a political union with more powerful nation states? Should we be a country or a colony? You cannot be both, and I struggle to think of any political union in history that allows small nation states their freedom.

But why should we think of ourselves as being a group? Society is formed of all these different agents and elements that build up over time. Alliances are formed and enemies are made , we like to put labels on everything (this is slightly ironic for me I know) but why should we look as ourselves as being just one country? We decide our culture by who we are , the language we speak,the clothes we wear, the music we listen to, why should we ? We are a first and foremost a member of humanity.

Christ re reading this makes me realise how fuckin eccentric I can be!

[fluffybiscuits]

I think you see where I am going. Political unions are disastrous for small nations. I'll not be convinced otherwise.

What is Northern Ireland and Ireland joining up! A political union!!

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Interesting that there is an assumption that many nations automatically leads to war and isolation. Far as I can tell from my European history war has always come from attempting to form a 'Federal' Europe under one vested interest.

The EU is just the third attempt in one hundred years. Nations who trade have co-existed alongside each other for far longer than they have ever been at war.

This liberal notion that if there were one world without borders and nations stems from the old idea of centralised control- it would naturally require a homogenisation programme and that would lead to tyranny.

The very fact that nations require diplomacy and trade negotiations is a possible brake on war. What happens when we are all 'EU' and Germans start popping up buying land for a song and generally lording it around Europe?

There is a difference between being a European and being the servant of a German. Or worse- German shareholders.

[fluffybiscuits]

Interesting that there is an assumption that many nations automatically leads to war and isolation. Far as I can tell from my European history war has always come from attempting to form a 'Federal' Europe under one vested interest.

The EU is just the third attempt in one hundred years. Nations who trade have co-existed alongside each other for far longer than they have ever been at war.

This liberal notion that if there were one world without borders and nations stems from the old idea of centralised control- it would naturally require a homogenisation programme and that would lead to tyranny.

The very fact that nations require diplomacy and trade negotiations is a possible brake on war. What happens when we are all 'EU' and Germans start popping up buying land for a song and generally lording it around Europe?

There is a difference between being a European and being the servant of a German. Or worse- German shareholders.

If we were to build a utopia such as that it would have a parliaments in each respective country and this would ensure that there is a central democracy. There is safety in numbers and there is a general fear that there would be an erosion of our culture and our heritage, things that we ourselves create and things which we ourselves preserve. The Basques have proudly kept their language, literature and music alive in Spain even when faced with such barbaric oppression. What can be learned from a micro level can be applied at a macro level I believe!

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

True- I think that not all nationalism is inherently dangerous. I believe it is a neutral actor which at least protects cultural heritage- Europe has always been a cultural melting pot anyway and I notice no brake on cultural exchange in Europe attributable to national borders historically speaking.

In fact cultural exchange never recognised national borders anyway- it is a weird mistake of the 'left' to believe that national boundaries lead to war. It is also where globalising corporations and centralist leftwingers agree most of all but for very different reasons. Corporations want no borders where they trade, on cost and homogeneity of product reasons, and idealogues of the left want centralisation to underpin command economies and centralised control of the means of production. The 'free movement of peoples' is agreed upon as a good thing by Comrade and Corporate but for very different reasons:)

The greatest exchange of knowledge in European history actually came from across the eastern gate with the rediscovery of Aristotle, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato in the hands of Muslim scholars and lead to a great cultural leap forward in western Europe. National borders did not hinder that in any way. Arguably the unearthing of this ancient wisdom by scholars from industrialist Britain and France was only possible as an offshoot of the success of the nation state.

[Ogiol]

True- I think that not all nationalism is inherently dangerous. I believe it is a neutral actor which at least protects cultural heritage- Europe has always been a cultural melting pot anyway and I notice no brake on cultural exchange in Europe attributable to national borders historically speaking.

In fact cultural exchange never recognised national borders anyway- it is a weird mistake of the 'left' to believe that national boundaries lead to war. It is also where globalising corporations and centralist leftwingers agree most of all but for very different reasons. Corporations want no borders where they trade, on cost and homogeneity of product reasons, and idealogues of the left want centralisation to underpin command economies and centralised control of the means of production. The 'free movement of peoples' is agreed upon as a good thing by Comrade and Corporate but for very different reasons:)

The greatest exchange of knowledge in European history actually came from across the eastern gate with the rediscovery of Aristotle, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato in the hands of Muslim scholars and lead to a great cultural leap forward in western Europe. National borders did not hinder that in any way. Arguably the unearthing of this ancient wisdom by scholars from industrialist Britain and France was only possible as an offshoot of the success of the nation state.

I agree. Nationalism from the right has a history of being VERY dangerous, but left nationalism has more of a history of protecting culture and heritage and fostering a weaken nation.

Back to Basque country. On the saturday before the election, It was the 1 year anniversary of the unilateral cessation of hostilities by ETA. They are no longer a factor in politics however the spanish state has not refrained from hostile actions. It continues with its dispersal of prisioners, fruit of which is the death of many related family during trips to visit them. The spanish state was also once again condemned for state terrorism and torture by the European Court of Human Rights just a fortnight ago. Turns out they closed and arreseted a newspaper and its journalists then tortured them. They were not members of ETA but they did believe in basque independence. Egunkaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egunkaria) was the name of the paper.

http://forwhatwearetheywillbe.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/strasbourg-court-condemns-spain-for-not.html

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I think I recall reading that the Spanish state has a lot of form in treating prisoners and their families badly.

In particular this dispersal of prisoners to opposite ends of that state is an old caper there.

[Ogiol]

I think I recall reading that the Spanish state has a lot of form in treating prisoners and their families badly.

In particular this dispersal of prisoners to opposite ends of that state is an old caper there.

Dispersal, and the brits tried it too and done it but as nationalists successfully internationalised the conflict they were shamed into stopping that policy.

Spain though, has no shame. The PP, who continuously tow the 'condemn this and that line' have never, and probably will never, condemn the Franco dictatorship. Instead they publically argue that it was 40 years of peace. They have no shame really so I reckon they will keep up the policy of dispersal and continue being condemned for torture by the ECHR. Its a sad state of affairs and something that is feeding the seperatism of the basques and catalans.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

One of the most puzzling conundrums ever- why Falangists assume repression is anything but a losing game over time for them.

I think it must be something to do with the psychology of the extremist rightwinger. How many time have we seen in modern history and for example in Libya and Syria where juntas assume that they can return to their control of countries after committing atrocities?

You see the same sort of foaming nuttery among Irish radical conservatives- urging for riot cops to split heads and that kind of thing. It plays immediately into the hands of those who oppose them.

[Ogiol]

One of the most puzzling conundrums ever- why Falangists assume repression is anything but a losing game over time for them.

I think it must be something to do with the psychology of the extremist rightwinger. How many time have we seen in modern history and for example in Libya and Syria where juntas assume that they can return to their control of countries after committing atrocities?

You see the same sort of foaming nuttery among Irish radical conservatives- urging for riot cops to split heads and that kind of thing. It plays immediately into the hands of those who oppose them.

Im not so sure that really applies in spain. They have had control over eduaction for a long time and that has had the effect of the layman thinking that Franco's regime wasn't such a bad thing and that those who say differently are just provoking conflict. There has also been a supression of what is called ''historic memory'', i.e. the recognisiing of the victems of the regime and the admitting blame. The judiciary are very quick to act on anything that doesn't follow the status quo and that was the reason that Garzón (an ex-judge), who wanted to unearth these crimes and start giving justice to the victems, was basically fired and told to take a hike.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Yes. We know that in Ireland too. The hurried attempts by an establishment to provide a blank spot in the nation's history and the vicious reaction against anyone with an interest in detail, accuracy and at least some honesty.

Ireland hasn't been referred to as 'the sow that eats her own farrow' for nothing. The Irish establishment is one of the most naturally reactionary in Europe, much of which is automatic and comes with a narrow worldview and a distinctly incestuous establishment based on a fringe society at the edge of Europe.

Think of the apes of Gibraltar and you have your Ned O'Keeffe's, O'Cuivs, Coughlans, O'Rourkes. Even the so-called intellectuals of the Irish political establishment such as Martin Mansaaaaaaargghgh (he studied classics/philosophy ya know) are basically apeing a gentility they see in period drama on the BBC or a weird sort of 1950s respectability rather than actually responding to any contemporary social dynamic.

We had, in the middle of the worst crisis in the state's economic history, a motion and debate in our national parliament on whether men should be made wear ties in the Oireachtas. Apes with their noses pressed up against the windowpanes of the clubland of St James' in London.

[Ogiol]

Yes. We know that in Ireland too. The hurried attempts by an establishment to provide a blank spot in the nation's history and the vicious reaction against anyone with an interest in detail, accuracy and at least some honesty.

Ireland hasn't been referred to as 'the sow that eats her own farrow' for nothing.

Lol, I've never heard that one before, where's it from??

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Lol, I've never heard that one before, where's it from??

Joyce, and Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man I think... just think for a minute of the debate about 'who we should be like' in Irish political affairs.

Berlin. Boston. Beijing. No room for Dublin or even consciousness of how weird it is for a nation to have its own senior politicians debating who we should be more like. How about a conversation about what being Irish in the 21st century should mean? Unthinkable. We must be 'like' someone else.

Boredom Warning: There were small islands in the Panhellenic League which were nations in their own minds and were able to retain their identify a hell of a lot a lot longer than the Republic of Ireland has and against far bigger threats. Then again they started from a position of defending something distinct whereas our lot are looking for a backhander to sell the island out.

[Ogiol]

Joyce, and Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man I think... just think for a minute of the debate about 'who we should be like' in Irish political affairs.

Berlin. Boston. Beijing. No room for Dublin or even consciousness of how weird it is for a nation to have its own senior politicians debating who we should be more like. How about a conversation about what being Irish in the 21st century should mean? Unthinkable. We must be 'like' someone else.

Boredom Warning: There were small islands in the Panhellenic League which were nations in their own minds and were able to retain their identify a hell of a lot a lot longer than the Republic of Ireland has and against far bigger threats. Then again they started from a position of defending something distinct whereas our lot are looking for a backhander to sell the island out.

Nice one, Ive never read portrait its on the to read list tho;)

Can you imagine berlin or boston having a debate on who they should be more like. No chance. But then again we are a colonised people and the fact that we speak english and are a small nation means that its made seem ok to just look to see what london or boston do and copy them.

I beleive that without a strong autoctonous language and cultural revival we will not be able to regain out independence of thought. In english, public discourse here is all deferal to somewhere else. Look at the healt service debate, its all lets look to see who to copy. There is no original thought because we, as a nation, have become unoriginal, ununique. Our nationhood has been eroded just as our language and cultural identity has been and until things flip and we learn to cherish our own heritage then we will continue with the defferal of public discourse and continue to be mere customers rather than citizens.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Have to agree Ogiol. The lack of knowledge about our own culture prior to colonialism (either one of the two colonial experiences, the physical and the psychological) is actually preventing us from moving forward as an autonomous people.

We've been taught by default that we were 'barbaric' before the two colonisations and that insecurity remains and emerges in that strand of political discourse in 'who we should be like'.

[Apjp]

Have to agree Ogiol. The lack of knowledge about our own culture prior to colonialism (either one of the two colonial experiences, the physical and the psychological) is actually preventing us from moving forward as an autonomous people.

We've been taught by default that we were 'barbaric' before the two colonisations and that insecurity remains and emerges in that strand of political discourse in 'who we should be like'.

It's an insidious inplant left by former rulers. The sooner nationalism makes a comeback the better.

[Holly]

It's an insidious inplant left by former rulers. The sooner nationalism makes a comeback the better.
We have had enough nationalism in Ireland already. Give it a rest please.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

No we haven't. One good example- we haven't even had a nation yet. To get sick of something one generally has to have experienced it.

I'd kind of like to try it. I've heard a lot of talk about it.

[Apjp]

Nonsense Holly. We had 51 years of independence for the 26 counties and given the hold the Church had on society back then, it is debatable over whether that was true independence. It certainly wasn't a republic or an exercise of nationhood, with the only notable positive exercises of sovereignty that I recall being a death penalty for traitors, neutrality in world war two and De Valera wisely deciding to keep Ireland out of the original European Union due to his belief that it would be worse than the old act of union(Granted De Valera and wise are not two very exchangeable words). In other words, the old Irish state was at its best when it was forced to defend its neutrality or its sovereignty, and otherwise left a lot to be desired. Mind you, if we had such independence now, and got rid of the three main parties we would have a lot going for us.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The ambition for a sovereign independent democratic republic is a noble one and includes pluralism otherwise it can't be democracy. So the issue of nationalism being assumed as a cover for fascism or racism doesn't hold true.

[Holly]

Nonsense Holly. ...

You confuse nationalism and republicanism.
I wont bother you with my nonsense other than to say the nationalism of the loyalists in the Six Counties is similar to the nationalism of their enemies.

[Saoirse go Deo]

What is Northern Ireland and Ireland joining up! A political union!!

That's partitionist nonsense Fluffy, a united Ireland is the political reunification of the Irish Nation - it currently is divided into two political states.

It's not at all comparable to a small nation like Ireland being in a vast union like the EU.

[Apjp]

You confuse nationalism and republicanism.
I wont bother you with my nonsense other than to say the nationalism of the loyalists in the Six Counties is similar to the nationalism of their enemies.

That depends. The Irish concept of nationalism is very wide ranging. It can mean Dev Era style Romanisation of Irish life, or it can mean something more similar to the Gaelic Revival, and a national conversation on culture, identity and values. This concept of nationalism, the one that me and captain favour, generally tends to be a republican one.

The Unionists do not have a concept of nationalism as they do not wish to be an independent nation, but they want to stay in the Union. So, that's a pretty contradictory view of unionism, considering they are opposed with reactionary fervour and en masse to Scottish independence as well.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Nicely put APJP and agree with your point very much.

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.npr.org/2012/10/25/163629203/while-spain-struggles-the-basque-region-shines

Great short concise article on the Basque Country. Thanks to the resources of steel and coal there is a chance that like Catalonia, The Basques could easily build and independent viable state. Their rate of unemployment is at 12.5% which is half that of the Spanish national figure. The engineer they interviewed make trains for Amtrak in the US and the rest of the US, huge potential there.

[Holly]

...
The Unionists do not have a concept of nationalism as they do not wish to be an independent nation, but they want to stay in the Union. So, that's a pretty contradictory view of unionism, considering they are opposed with reactionary fervour and en masse to Scottish independence as well.
I disagree with your point very much, Apjp.
Waving the British Union flag and identifying as British is nationalism.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Northern Ireland is a basket case though Holly. I mean the symbols there are as messed up as it gets.

The conflict there was portrayed as a 'religious' divide when in fact it wasn't. Catholicism and Protestantism were used as labels there when in fact the conflict had very little to do with religion.

What do the loyalists in Northern Ireland do if Scotland leaves the Union? It undercuts their entire sense of identity with Scotland and the Union itself. I see they've even attempted to demand that they get a vote in the Scottish referendum- which they are clearly not going to get.

And the British Union isn't a nation but the union of 'England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland'. Four nations, legalistically speaking. Hard to be loyal to four nations. Most English people I know are loyal to England. Scots are loyal to Scotland. The Welsh are loyal to Wales.

It is a bit like saying we should feel that the European Union is a nation. And very few carry EU flags around. There is no EU football team. Or rugby team:)

[fluffybiscuits]

Northern Ireland is a basket case though Holly. I mean the symbols there are as messed up as it gets.

The conflict there was portrayed as a 'religious' divide when in fact it wasn't. Catholicism and Protestantism were used as labels there when in fact the conflict had very little to do with religion.

What do the loyalists in Northern Ireland do if Scotland leaves the Union? It undercuts their entire sense of identity with Scotland and the Union itself. I see they've even attempted to demand that they get a vote in the Scottish referendum- which they are clearly not going to get.

And the British Union isn't a nation but the union of 'England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland'. Four nations, legalistically speaking. Hard to be loyal to four nations. Most English people I know are loyal to England. Scots are loyal to Scotland. The Welsh are loyal to Wales.

It is a bit like saying we should feel that the European Union is a nation. And very few carry EU flags around. There is no EU football team. Or rugby team:)


Making the situation sound like a religious divide suited the agenda of the British establishment for ages. Painting the pope out to be the antichrist (well just metaphorically speaking he is, not literally) it created a sectarian division which if it was ever to become united would throw down the gaunlet to the government and seek to be in charge of its own direction . Scotland is going to force a lot of NI'ers to reflect on where the issue leaves them, do they support the Republic of Scotland which a lot of their "Protestant" brethern would support or do they throw lock stock and two smoking barrels behind being opposed to it. We know where the nationalists are going to stand on the issue, they have a lot in common with the Scots and identify a lot more easily with any Scottish movement. Its the crisis of conscience that is going to completely throw off the Unionist movement. Who knows, it might be the start of the cascade...? :)

[Ogiol]

http://www.npr.org/2012/10/25/163629203/while-spain-struggles-the-basque-region-shines

Great short concise article on the Basque Country. Thanks to the resources of steel and coal there is a chance that like Catalonia, The Basques could easily build and independent viable state. Their rate of unemployment is at 12.5% which is half that of the Spanish national figure. The engineer they interviewed make trains for Amtrak in the US and the rest of the US, huge potential there.

Hey fluff, good article. It is true that the Baque Country has and always had a good economy. In the 80's though, there was a lot of structural unemployment as heavy industry was dismantled by fervent neoliberalists. They've gotten over that now though and are certainly doing better than spain. New unemployment figures show a very small increase up to 14,9%, which is terrible but again a lot better than spain.

BTW, as one commentator on the article says, one way of getting over the unemployment crisis was the creation of differnt models of production. There are huge co-ops in the Basque Country and they employ hundreds of thousands of workers. (The co-op structure is egalitarian internally) One such company that you probs know is Fagor, who make electrodomestic products and house fittings. I studied their internal linguistic policy and it was amazingly egalitarian. Most employees now know several languages because the company teaches them.

Anyway, they also make buses, and are very famous for it. Have a look at bus éireann buses and you'll probably see the name Irizar on the front. Thats the name of the basque company who do bus fittings and between the basques and the swedes they have that bus fitting market cornered!

[fluffybiscuits]

Hey fluff, good article. It is true that the Baque Country has and always had a good economy. In the 80's though, there was a lot of structural unemployment as heavy industry was dismantled by fervent neoliberalists. They've gotten over that now though and are certainly doing better than spain. New unemployment figures show a very small increase up to 14,9%, which is terrible but again a lot better than spain.

BTW, as one commentator on the article says, one way of getting over the unemployment crisis was the creation of differnt models of production. There are huge co-ops in the Basque Country and they employ hundreds of thousands of workers. (The co-op structure is egalitarian internally) One such company that you probs know is Fagor, who make electrodomestic products and house fittings. I studied their internal linguistic policy and it was amazingly egalitarian. Most employees now know several languages because the company teaches them.

Anyway, they also make buses, and are very famous for it. Have a look at bus éireann buses and you'll probably see the name Irizar on the front. Thats the name of the basque company who do bus fittings and between the basques and the swedes they have that bus fitting market cornered!

Lanugages open up a whole new market ! The Basques are gifted having such a beautiful language while also being bilingual with Spanish making language acquisition a whole lot easier!

[Apjp]

http://www.npr.org/2012/10/25/163629203/while-spain-struggles-the-basque-region-shines

Great short concise article on the Basque Country. Thanks to the resources of steel and coal there is a chance that like Catalonia, The Basques could easily build and independent viable state. Their rate of unemployment is at 12.5% which is half that of the Spanish national figure. The engineer they interviewed make trains for Amtrak in the US and the rest of the US, huge potential there.

They could leave the EU as well, a great opportunity for a small nation to be what it was born to be, free and independent.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Never knew that about the Basque country. We seem to have some cultural connection to them from a long way back as far as I can recall from my reading- I do love a co-op and the ethos of co-ops.

Thats great stuff about the bus company. There is a better and more equitable and stable model of capitalism out there and it does I feel involve co-ops and companies where the responsibility lies not to shareholders but to the customer/employee.

[fluffybiscuits]

They could leave the EU as well, a great opportunity for a small nation to be what it was born to be, free and independent.

If they can do it on their own fair play to them! They have the economic knowhow to go it alone ! :) What happens though when the economy as fickle as it is crumbles though?

[Apjp]

If they can do it on their own fair play to them! They have the economic knowhow to go it alone ! :) What happens though when the economy as fickle as it is crumbles though?

Why don't they then sign away all their sovereign and independent freedoms for a short term handout from a political union? Worked for us, didnt it???

[fluffybiscuits]

Why don't they then sign away all their sovereign and independent freedoms for a short term handout from a political union? Worked for us, didnt it???

I never said it wouldnt work. Iceland is to be admired for getting their country back on track through the tough times. They jailed thier bankers, built a better country and enshrined a peoples consitution. We can learn from them so Im not saying a political union is the only solution just my preferred solution .