Badger Culls: The Cost Of Cruelty For Irish Citizens; €70 million to be exact

[Fraxinus]

To be honest I was largely ignorant of government policy towards badgers. Although I knew there were culls I had no idea to what extent or that snares were being used. It's absolutely disgraceful that the money of Irish citizens is going towards funding such a cruel practice.


The Irish Wildlife Trust (IWT) is opposed to badger culling and the use of snares. Not only is it barbaric and unethical, recent findings have shown it to be ineffective in the war on bovine TB. Badgers can die over extended periods struggling in these hideous devices while their young starve underground. Nobody has ever counted badgers accurately in this country and while it has always been assumed that they are common animals, this can no longer be taken for granted.

• 115,000 badgers have been killed by the Irish Government since 1984
• 6,000 snares are set in Ireland every night
• €70 million of citizen’s money has been allocated to the disease eradication programme this year alone
• Badgers are a protected species by Irish and European law

The IWT wants this practice to stop immediately. It is cruel, wasteful and damages Ireland’s reputation for its ‘green island economy’. We recognise that bovineTB is a major problem for Irish farmers but it also must be recognised that culling does not work. Resources should be focused on a national vaccination programme. Faulty science and politically driven motives should not be used as excuses for slaughtering our wildlife.
http://iwt.ie/2011/11/iwt-badger-campaign/

There's an online petition available here for anyone who'd like to voice their opposition http://www.change.org/petitions/the-irish-wildlife-trust-iwtie

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Statement just in from the Irish Farmers Society

'Badgers, hawks, eagles and other members of Continuity Wildlife Terrorism towards the poor small farmer just barely ekeing out a living by growing subsidy forms and huddling their poor shivering families around a warming lamb on the hillside for the greater glory of god and Ireland should all be killed immediately as there has never been a good year in farming ever and all the money we got from selling rezoned agricultural land for plots has been lost on bank shares in the name of Brian Lenihan Senior, Brian Lenihan Junior and the Holy O'Rourkes.

Amen.'

[fluffybiscuits]

To be honest I was largely ignorant of government policy towards badgers. Although I knew there were culls I had no idea to what extent or that snares were being used. It's absolutely disgraceful that the money of Irish citizens is going towards funding such a cruel practice.



http://iwt.ie/2011/11/iwt-badger-campaign/


Jesus that is a revelation! 70 million quid, that is the cost of a lot of doctors and re opening at least two or three A&Es in Ireland. Goes to prove that as per usual the government has got it wrong in relation to culling. Im trying to find a report Fraxinus that the BBC done that shows badger culling is not effective. If you come across studies done let me know as Im with you on this one

Edit: Got one from the Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/11/badger-culling-ineffective-krebs

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Landowners in Ireland do as they please seeing as they run the place. They are guardians and conservors of the countryside- up until there is a suspicion a section of wildlife might cost them a penny- then they'll blow its bloody head off.

[Fraxinus]

Statement just in from the Irish Farmers Society

'Badgers, hawks, eagles and other members of Continuity Wildlife Terrorism towards the poor small farmer just barely ekeing out a living by growing subsidy forms and huddling their poor shivering families around a warming lamb on the hillside for the greater glory of god and Ireland should all be killed immediately as there has never been a good year in farming ever and all the money we got from selling rezoned agricultural land for plots has been lost on bank shares in the name of Brian Lenihan Senior, Brian Lenihan Junior and the Holy O'Rourkes.

Amen.'

Haha:D

I was at a Teagasc open day once and I nearly split myself laughing when one of the speakers was on about putting up bat boxes and refered to the audience of farmers as "the stewards of the countryside", always willing to do their bit for the environment. The audience soon dispersed when they realised there were no grants to be got for putting up bat boxes;)

[Fraxinus]

Jesus that is a revelation! 70 million quid, that is the cost of a lot of doctors and re opening at least two or three A&Es in Ireland. Goes to prove that as per usual the government has got it wrong in relation to culling. Im trying to find a report Fraxinus that the BBC done that shows badger culling is not effective. If you come across studies done let me know as Im with you on this one

Edit: Got one from the Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/11/badger-culling-ineffective-krebs

I'll keep an eye out for you. It could be the same thing but I was watching BBC's Autumn Watch last Friday and saw a bit about it. They mentioned that it was very costly and how there was attempts being made to introduce a vaccine...I didn't catch what they said in summing it all up though.

[morticia]

How do you vaccinate wild animals though?? The conservation movement spent ages denying that badgers spread TB, then about 10 years ago, a UK study involving CCTV and a trough or two caught the badgers climbing in to the feed troughs, eating, urinating, defecating... clear routes of transmission.

Given that whole herds get culled if TB is diagnosed, I'm afraid the farmers' instincts to protect their crops is only human, even if inhumane.

I'm not quite sure which side to come down on here; not culling leaves badgers with few predators and an awful lot of food sources in the shape of winter fodder for livestock. That means increased numbers of animals, and increased amounts of TB, which is becoming more and more antibiotic resistant.

[fluffybiscuits]

How do you vaccinate wild animals though?? The conservation movement spent ages denying that badgers spread TB, then about 10 years ago, a UK study involving CCTV and a trough or two caught the badgers climbing in to the feed troughs, eating, urinating, defecating... clear routes of transmission.

Given that whole herds get culled if TB is diagnosed, I'm afraid the farmers' instincts to protect their crops is only human, even if inhumane.

I'm not quite sure which side to come down on here; not culling leaves badgers with few predators and an awful lot of food sources in the shape of winter fodder for livestock. That means increased numbers of animals, and increased amounts of TB, which is becoming more and more antibiotic resistant.

A catch and release programme I would say. They are going to spend time laying traps out on the ground to catch them they could use this to catch the badgers anyways alive if they change the traps they use. This comes down to farmers being either worried about the cost and being the typical capitalist driven mentality that seems to prevade in a lot of them or else thinking humanely and doing the right thing. A report by the scientific advisor to the British government in 2007acknowledged the links between badgers and TB but the amount of square miles that needs to be covered for it to be effective is something like 100 km squared.As you can see from reports more money has been spent on vaccinating badgers than the cattle whom are of course the ones we should be worried about IMO... :)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/14/david-attenborough-badger-cull

http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/corporate/migratedD/ec_group/44-07-S_I_on

http://www.bovinetb.co.uk/article.php?category_id=3&article_id=48

[antiestablishmentarian]

The use of snares in particular is an horrific practice. Oftentimes too the culling is done where there is no need for it, a neighbour of mine bought a heifer with TB at the mart without properly checking her before he got her. Rather than admit he was caught out by a sleeveen, he blamed the TB on the badgers from a wood on our property bounding his, and called the DofA. Of course they put down snares everywhere and culled most of the badgers, but they weren't a TB threat- in 14 years grazing our animals on the same patch of land, we've never once had a beast come down with TB. Alot of farmers use culling to keep their herds in order rather than doing a bit of care themselves like injecting their herd once a year.

[Andrew49]

I put much of the bovine TB down to incompetence and laziness on the part of farmers rather than wildlife - or badgers in particular. If there's any 'badgering' to be done by Coveney it should be directed towards the agricultural sector.

[fluffybiscuits]

The use of snares in particular is an horrific practice. Oftentimes too the culling is done where there is no need for it, a neighbour of mine bought a heifer with TB at the mart without properly checking her before he got her. Rather than admit he was caught out by a sleeveen, he blamed the TB on the badgers from a wood on our property bounding his, and called the DofA. Of course they put down snares everywhere and culled most of the badgers, but they weren't a TB threat- in 14 years grazing our animals on the same patch of land, we've never once had a beast come down with TB. Alot of farmers use culling to keep their herds in order rather than doing a bit of care themselves like injecting their herd once a year.

Spot on anti. They need to inject their herds instead of scapegoating the badgers for the blame but get a load of this. Farmers get compensation for herds that become infected with TB. On an overview of shooting badgers and the farmer spending money or getting compensation, compensation is more lucrative

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/animalhealthwelfare/diseasecontrol/bovinetbbrucellosiseradicationschemes/diseaseeradicationpolicy/diseaseeradicationschemes/

[morticia]

Spot on anti. They need to inject their herds instead of scapegoating the badgers for the blame but get a load of this. Farmers get compensation for herds that become infected with TB. On an overview of shooting badgers and the farmer spending money or getting compensation, compensation is more lucrative

I cannot be sure about bovine vaccines, but the human BCG is only 30% effective, but the only vaccine we have, nevertheless.

Not as easy as you think...

[5intheface]

Neigbours here lost the bull to TB a couple of years back and they were asking me at the time if I'd seen many badgers as they knew I would have gone out at dusk to watch them.

When I said that I supposed they would have to do something about it, they made it very clear that they had no intention of doing so. They were of the opinion that cows pass the disease to badgers in the first place.

[morticia]

They were of the opinion that cows pass the disease to badgers in the first place.

This I doubt (on a large scale, anyway). TB is one of the not-overly-numerous diseases that can infect a lot of other mammalian species (technical term, zoonoses)... the badgers could be getting it from all sorts of other wildlife reservoirs and passing it on as they're one of the few species large enough to easily get into a feed trough (and leave bodily fluids behind to ingest).

[fluffybiscuits]

This I doubt (on a large scale, anyway). TB is one of the not-overly-numerous diseases that can infect a lot of other mammalian species (technical term, zoonoses)... the badgers could be getting it from all sorts of other wildlife reservoirs and passing it on as they're one of the few species large enough to easily get into a feed trough (and leave bodily fluids behind to ingest).

Would it not be better, cheaper and a whole lot easier seen as we understand the transmission paths then we can prevent the badgers from entering land where there is cattle.Strong wire of a sort and perhaps other deterrents (Im sure there is some sort of deterrent that can be produced chemically) to ward them off? (Im probably in dreamland morticia on this one so I apologise in advance if the suggestion seems silly!)

[Bex]

I have just joined this forum, as I wanted to comment on some of the posts here. Particularly relevant, as the DofA is coming to my area on Monday to begin to cull the badgers here.
First, although it would be far easier just to vaccinate cattle for bTB, they will not do this, as it would eliminate Ireland's standing as exporting 'disease free' cattle.
John Krebs, the UK govt minister who was originally in charge of the 10 year study on the effect of culling badgers indicates that this is not a cost effective program, reducing incidents of bTB by only 12-16% (meaning that approx 85% is not affected). There is no definitive scientific evidence of whether badgers give bTB to cattle, or if it is the other way around. It is interesting to note that also foxes, deer, rats, etc., carry this disease, however, it appears that there is no move to eliminate or cull the rats in the Irish countryside. Much of the responsibility of this, frankly, goes to the farmer, for excessive movement of individual livestock and herds from one area to another, as well as hygiene conditions and overcrowding when cattle are confined. Additionally, it has been scientifically proven (in the UK 10 year study) that culling of badgers in one area increases the risk of it in surrounding areas, as infected badgers who escape the cull, move outward into neighboring areas.
Culling of badgers is solely a knee jerk reaction, with little basis in science. We won't go into the ethics of the manner in which this is done, however, whereas the UK uses cage traps to effect this, in Ireland it is a wire snare that is placed around the opening of the sett, so that when the badger exits, the snare goes around its neck, and continues to tighten as the animal struggles. Very often, these animals are left in this condition for days, awaiting the return of DofA employees who then come to shoot them. It is interesting to note that very few of these animals are actually tested for bTB.
Ireland has the vaccine for badgers, and has been randomly doing trials with this in various areas. There is no longer any excuse for such inhumane treatment of wild 'protected' animals, other than ignorance.

[Fraxinus]

I've a feeling intensive farming practices have more to do with this than badgers. As people have already posted there are no clear links over what animals are actually the ones transmitting the disease.
The housing of cattle for the winter has a lot to answer for. Ask any farmer and he'll tell you cattle are far healthier when left out for the winter. Instead now they are cooped up in slatted sheds for nearly 6 months, is it any wonder they get TB. Obviously in freek (the A is offensive??) cold spells like last winter it's no harm but otherwise it shouldn't be done. But it is because herds are so large now and they would destroy fields during the winter. Herds are actually far too big now anyway because fields are even getting poached to bits during the summer as well if the weather is anyways dodge. The amount of phosphates and nitrates that are then needed to sustain these enlarged herd numbers on land have horrendous knock on effects and the eutrophication is plain for all to see in the lakes and rivers all over the country.

The bottom line is there are too many cattle on land that is not able to sustain them.

The second issue is the cruelty part and I would agree, why not trap them and shoot instead of half hanging them to death in a snare.

[Bex]

I agree with you 100%, but this will do me little good on Monday when the DofA comes to my area. The 3 farmers that surround me actually do keep their cattle out during the winter, and we have not had an incidence of bTB in my area in over 40 years. It would seem that the badger population that we have are healthy; culling them and running the risk of unhealthy badgers coming into the area seems totally illogical. One farm, approximately 7 miles away from here has had a recent incidence of bTB. The farmer is notorious for moving cattle about as well as bringing them in, quite recklessly. Even though the 'rule' is that badgers within a 2km radius of an infected farm be culled, the DofA is moving further afield. My neighbor does not want to allow them on her property to cull, (and by law, doesn't have to) but is afraid of repercussions from the other farmers. There seems to be no compassionate answer here.

[Fraxinus]

I agree with you 100%, but this will do me little good on Monday when the DofA comes to my area. The 3 farmers that surround me actually do keep their cattle out during the winter, and we have not had an incidence of bTB in my area in over 40 years. It would seem that the badger population that we have are healthy; culling them and running the risk of unhealthy badgers coming into the area seems totally illogical. One farm, approximately 7 miles away from here has had a recent incidence of bTB. The farmer is notorious for moving cattle about as well as bringing them in, quite recklessly. Even though the 'rule' is that badgers within a 2km radius of an infected farm be culled, the DofA is moving further afield. My neighbor does not want to allow them on her property to cull, (and by law, doesn't have to) but is afraid of repercussions from the other farmers. There seems to be no compassionate answer here.

Unfortunately logical isn't in the vocabulary for who run the DofA and in way it's then no surprise that a lot of farmers have a habit of mismanaging the countryside. I really don't know what you can do, it's a terrible situation especially as your neighbours cattle are healthy.
It's a bit off topic but I hear the older farmers around here saying that slurry is one of the main reasons for recent poor drainage in fields. They reckon when it's spread and when the worms come to the soil surface the birds have a feast...then the number of worms in the ground is reduced and so the good work they do in airating the soil is diminshed witht the result the water gets held there for longer than before. Yet the Department has been shoving slatted sheds down the farmers' throats for the past decade.

[fluffybiscuits]

I agree with you 100%, but this will do me little good on Monday when the DofA comes to my area. The 3 farmers that surround me actually do keep their cattle out during the winter, and we have not had an incidence of bTB in my area in over 40 years. It would seem that the badger population that we have are healthy; culling them and running the risk of unhealthy badgers coming into the area seems totally illogical. One farm, approximately 7 miles away from here has had a recent incidence of bTB. The farmer is notorious for moving cattle about as well as bringing them in, quite recklessly. Even though the 'rule' is that badgers within a 2km radius of an infected farm be culled, the DofA is moving further afield. My neighbor does not want to allow them on her property to cull, (and by law, doesn't have to) but is afraid of repercussions from the other farmers. There seems to be no compassionate answer here.


She would have every right no to let them on to her land. The DofA inspectors are bound by the Data Protection Act and cannot inform other farmers of the actions of any one farmer. You raised a very good point about the culling of badgers that are perhaps healthy and it leaves a niche there for animals that are not perhaps healthy to fill that void thereby making matters a lot worse. If I were you I would contact the instruments of the state (Joe Duffy) or if you dont feel like doing it, PM me, I dont have any qualms sticking a few sticks in spokes in a few wheels...

[Bex]

The Department of Agriculture has been around here this morning. The following letter that I have sent to all my local radio stations and newspapers advises the outcome of my 'meeting' with them. It is their intention to cull ALL the badgers in my area. Hopefully someone in one of these media, will take an interest in this:

Dear Sir,

I wish to advise you (and perhaps your audience) of the
intensive badger culling that is presently happening in the Ballintra
area. It appears that there has been a number of incidents of bovine TB
in the area, and the Dept. of Agriculture is responding by culling the
badgers. This is an ongoing problem in all of Ireland, and is presently
costing the tax payer 70 million euro to effect this program.

Representatives of the Dept. of Agriculture came to my area this
morning, to set the wire 'restraining' snares. The Dept. of Agriculture
supervisor, Mr. Dermot Butler has advised me that written correspondence
was sent to all herd and some other property owners a few months ago, to
get permission to go on to their land to set these traps. Although the
Trespass Act 2002 does not allow anyone to venture onto private as
without express permission, Mr. Butler advised that, in those instances
where the Dept. of Agriculture did not receive any response from their
communication, they deem this as permission and/or consent to their
program.

The science indicated in the Krebs Report, a 10 year study of the effect
of culling badgers as a means to reducing bTB, indicates that there is
only a 12% reduction in such incidents, despite entire populations of
badgers being wiped out. When the UK thought about culling earlier this
year, Mr. Krebs himself advised that he thought this was not a cost
effective manner in dealing with the problem.

The fact that other wild animals (ie, rats, foxes, deer, etc.) are also
carrying bTB, it has never been definitively ascertained whether it is the
cattle themselves infecting these animals, or vice versa. Strangely, no
other animals other than the badger, is being held responsible for
outbreaks of bTB, nor being culled. Interestingly, this also includes
the specific farmers themselves, wherein it has been ascertained that
unregistered movement of cattle, unhygienic housing conditions,
overcrowding, etc., also leads to a high incidence of this disease.

In contacting Mr. Butler this morning, to voice my concern, I was
advised of the following:

> Their goal is to eradicate ALL badgers in my area. They will
> intensively be setting snares for the following 10 days (supposedly
> returning each morning before 12 PM to shoot the badgers caught.) The
> snaring will then cease, and be resumed in the springtime. My area is
> slated to have this done for the next 4 years, due to the high
> incidence of bTB in Ballintra.
> The Dept. of Agriculture supervisor does not feel that animals, other
> than the badger, effectively contributes to bTB.
> Any farmer who refuses access to Dept. of Agriculture employees for
> this purpose, and is then affected by bTB, has 'brought this on
> himself'. (This reasoning is apparently the scare tactic that many
> farmers have succumbed to, in approving this.


I live in an area that has not has bTB in over 40 years, yet my area is
being culled, even though it is sited well over the 2km radius wherein
culling normally occurs. I feel that this 'knee jerk' scapegoating of
badgers should be brought to the attention of the local population, with
hopefully an effort and response to halt this draconian practice.

Thank you for your time and attention.

[Bex]

I am in Donegal, and so far I have sent this to Highland Radio, Ocean FM, the Donegal Democrat, the Donegal Times, the Irish Times, the Irish Independent. If anyone has any other suggestion as to whom I should send this, please let me know. Thanks!!

[fluffybiscuits]

Joe Duffy is one (I know the whineline but worth a bash), council of blood sports etc.

BTW Sent you a PM :)

[Bex]

Thanks Fluffy - I sent Joe Duffy an email, and my try to follow it up with a phone call. Got your PM, too, and appreciate your input. As well as your signature!!!......

[Bex]

For any of you who are following this post just wanted to let you know that I received an email this morning from our local radio station, OceanFM, to ask me to do a phone in interview at 9:20 tomorrow morning, about this issue.
Eck, I am not a public speaker!! However, I have told them yes (of course). If anyone has suggestions about things that they think I need to bring up, please post them. I am REALLY nervous about doing this, but this issue is so important to me, that this doesn't make a difference.
I sent out a ton of emails yesterday (the pen is mightier than the sword??). Will see what kind of responses, if any, I get back. I sent them out with a 'return receipt' so that I could see when they were read. In case anyone is interested, I sent one to Dave Lawlor at the Independent. He deleted my email without even reading it. I was furious, and sent him back a fast email (no return receipt this time) saying: Is there some reason why you think I took the time to write to you, so that you could just delete it??
What an arrogant putz......

[C. Flower]

Hope this went well!

[Bex]

Hope this 'will go' well.....It's not until tomorrow morning. If anyone here has any suggestions about information that I should bring up in the interview, please post it. Thanks.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Just point out that it is far better for farmers to take care of their own animals before a cull is done. Herds should be tested and dosed, and subsidies should be made contingent on a check by a DofA vet that those have been carried out. Point out that rats and other vermin transmit the virus too, and suggest that there be a cull of vermin before badgers are gone after. The countryside is alive with rats, grey crows and other vermin as a result of roadkill, fewer farmers keeping cats for hunting rats etc. Perhaps the DofA should concentrate on culling them to sustainable levels first instead of going after badgers. Those would be some of my thoughts. I'm sure you're well capable of your own.

[fluffybiscuits]

Just point out that it is far better for farmers to take care of their own animals before a cull is done. Herds should be tested and dosed, and subsidies should be made contingent on a check by a DofA vet that those have been carried out. Point out that rats and other vermin transmit the virus too, and suggest that there be a cull of vermin before badgers are gone after. The countryside is alive with rats, grey crows and other vermin as a result of roadkill, fewer farmers keeping cats for hunting rats etc. Perhaps the DofA should concentrate on culling them to sustainable levels first instead of going after badgers. Those would be some of my thoughts. I'm sure you're well capable of your own.

The rats and other rodents are huge vectors for it. As the breed like wildfire they are perhaps the vermin we should be aiming for and based on a risk assessment of them they carry a lot more pathogens dangerous to humans than badgers do. Badgers are nocturnal, rats come out anytime of the day or night
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/northwest/series1/rats.shtml

[Bex]

Thank you!! Am reading your link now......

[Fraxinus]

Good article here by the man himself http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/14/david-attenborough-badger-cull


Government scientists have concluded that this "perturbation effect" disappears with time after a prolonged culling of badgers. However, a decade of data collected from 10 trial badger culls in the west country in which 11,000 badgers were killed produced a modest average reduction in confirmed TB incidents in cattle of between 12% and 16%. Localised badger culling can more than double the risk of TB infecting cattle, according to a Medical Research Council study published on Wednesday.

There's a link to an article on that study as well http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/13/badger-culls-increase-bovine-tb

[Bex]

Ah, I've always loved David Attenborough. Now I know why....thanks for the link - I sent this to my local newspaper, who is doing a front page article on this for their Thursday edition. It appears that most of the local people here think that culls happened in the past, but are no longer going on. Hopefully people can read the science for themselves, and maybe get a bit more vocal before badgers go the way of the passenger pigeon!

[Fraxinus]

Ah, I've always loved David Attenborough. Now I know why....thanks for the link - I sent this to my local newspaper, who is doing a front page article on this for their Thursday edition. It appears that most of the local people here think that culls happened in the past, but are no longer going on. Hopefully people can read the science for themselves, and maybe get a bit more vocal before badgers go the way of the passenger pigeon!

Did you say the cull started Monday though?

[Bex]

Yes, it started Monday (as in yesterday). Will go on all this week, then stop for the weekend, continue all next week, and be finished next Friday. Then they come back in the spring (just in time for mating season so they can orphan all the badger cubs??)
Then the plan is to return in 4 years. This apparently is an ongoing situation. As we are now on the list of areas that are being culled, frankly, I don't know how you get off of it. Well, I do know.....all badgers have disappeared, so nothing left to cull.

[Trow]

To be honest I was largely ignorant of government policy towards badgers. Although I knew there were culls I had no idea to what extent or that snares were being used. It's absolutely disgraceful that the money of Irish citizens is going towards funding such a cruel practice.

http://iwt.ie/2011/11/iwt-badger-campaign/

Wildlife is so much of ''my life'' these days. I track constantly and have my eyes on a number of surviving Badger sets.

Caught a sound bite a few weeks ago about the possibility of introducing ''culling'' in England and was concerned that this would spread throughout Ireland.

I would consider ''culling'' to be as much a crime as Badger baiting with dogs. Not a nice thing to watch. And although that practice is highly illegal [and rightly so] Law makers believe they can flex the rules using dodgy facts and figures and expect animal/nature lovers to accept it as a necessary evil.

From what i see in ''immediate nature'' [that being a 4 mile radius around a small town in Ireland] is a growth in the Badger community. A slight rise in the number of sets which only a few years ago were just about deserted.

Road kills taking their toll when man and nature collide, literally.:(

I wonder is there hidden motivations for this suggested mass cull such as a rise in complaints to Governments from motorists/motor insurance companies. Just a thought considering the amount of damage an adult Badger can do to fibreglass trims on cars not to mention accidents/damage caused by swerving to avoid collisions with them.

Motorways in England have tunnels under them for Badgers to get from one side to the other for this reason.
With growth in population, new sets being opened in different areas i would suggest that road kills will increase unless they tunnel under every road nearby a set.

Personally, i think the harmless little worm scrounging creatures get it hard enough and providing they don't evolve to learn the green cross code [safety practice in crossing roads] the ''inevitable'' between man and nature will always strike a balance.

[5intheface]

providing they don't evolve to learn the green cross code [safety practice in crossing roads] .

There was a time they did Trow.

http://www.scarysquirrel.org/tufty/badger/badger2.jpg

[Trow]

There was a time they did Trow.

http://www.scarysquirrel.org/tufty/badger/badger2.jpg

Curious choice of animal for their symbolism.

[fluffybiscuits]

Ah, I've always loved David Attenborough. Now I know why....thanks for the link - I sent this to my local newspaper, who is doing a front page article on this for their Thursday edition. It appears that most of the local people here think that culls happened in the past, but are no longer going on. Hopefully people can read the science for themselves, and maybe get a bit more vocal before badgers go the way of the passenger pigeon!




Excellent work on the badger culling mate. Asked a few friends about the practice and if they had heard of it and they asked was I talking about badger baiting! The farmers are going to feel peer pressured into it but it if they know the inspectors cant say who then that should go some way to alleviate their fears. The evidence is out there, people should read it we have a lot more to fear from rats than badgers.

[Fraxinus]

Wildlife is so much of ''my life'' these days. I track constantly and have my eyes on a number of surviving Badger sets.

Caught a sound bite a few weeks ago about the possibility of introducing ''culling'' in England and was concerned that this would spread throughout Ireland.

I would consider ''culling'' to be as much a crime as Badger baiting with dogs. Not a nice thing to watch. And although that practice is highly illegal [and rightly so] Law makers believe they can flex the rules using dodgy facts and figures and expect animal/nature lovers to accept it as a necessary evil.

From what i see in ''immediate nature'' [that being a 4 mile radius around a small town in Ireland] is a growth in the Badger community. A slight rise in the number of sets which only a few years ago were just about deserted.

Road kills taking their toll when man and nature collide, literally.:(

I wonder is there hidden motivations for this suggested mass cull such as a rise in complaints to Governments from motorists/motor insurance companies. Just a thought considering the amount of damage an adult Badger can do to fibreglass trims on cars not to mention accidents/damage caused by swerving to avoid collisions with them.

Motorways in England have tunnels under them for Badgers to get from one side to the other for this reason.
With growth in population, new sets being opened in different areas i would suggest that road kills will increase unless they tunnel under every road nearby a set.

Personally, i think the harmless little worm scrounging creatures get it hard enough and providing they don't evolve to learn the green cross code [safety practice in crossing roads] the ''inevitable'' between man and nature will always strike a balance.

As frustrating as it is to see needless harming of wildlife still being carried out, it's great to see more and more people becoming more nature aware.

On the motorways, all new motorways in Ireland should have by law tunnels for badgers due to the animal being protetced under both European and Irish legislation.

You would wonder why they go to such expense and lengths to cull the animal seeing as the science is hardly clear cut and the protection the badger supposedly has under law. I doubt there is another species with the same protection status allowed to be slaughtered on the basis of unclear scientific evidence.

[antiestablishmentarian]

The rats and other rodents are huge vectors for it. As the breed like wildfire they are perhaps the vermin we should be aiming for and based on a risk assessment of them they carry a lot more pathogens dangerous to humans than badgers do. Badgers are nocturnal, rats come out anytime of the day or night
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/northwest/series1/rats.shtml

Not only that but they live in far closer proximity to beasts for a much more sustained time than any wild badger. Cattle now usually spend the winter in sheds, but those sheds are breeding grounds for rats. The oul lad used to tell anyone going back to do the jobs to put on a pair of gloves as you could see the puncture marks from rat's teeth in the feed bags and they were nesting in the straw. Frax, it's frustrating to see this as a farmer's son and a wildlife lover, but it's hard to see how things will change unless farmers begin to take more responsibility themselves for the upkeep of their herds. Proper inspections would be a good start, quite a few schemes like the REPS are a complete joke because the inspection rate is negligible.

[fluffybiscuits]

Not only that but they live in far closer proximity to beasts for a much more sustained time than any wild badger. Cattle now usually spend the winter in sheds, but those sheds are breeding grounds for rats. The oul lad used to tell anyone going back to do the jobs to put on a pair of gloves as you could see the puncture marks from rat's teeth in the feed bags and they were nesting in the straw. Frax, it's frustrating to see this as a farmer's son and a wildlife lover, but it's hard to see how things will change unless farmers begin to take more responsibility themselves for the upkeep of their herds. Proper inspections would be a good start, quite a few schemes like the REPS are a complete joke because the inspection rate is negligible.

The hard part is encouraging farmers not to take part in the badget cull scheme. They have a herd mentality themselves (no pun intended) where they feel they will be the odd one out if they dont participate. There should be more inspections but with the limited resources at most of the govt agencies (or so they will claim) there may not be time for inspections.

[fluffybiscuits]

Just to bump this thread

This thread has had 53k views !

[Trow]

As frustrating as it is to see needless harming of wildlife still being carried out, it's great to see more and more people becoming more nature aware.

On the motorways, all new motorways in Ireland should have by law tunnels for badgers due to the animal being protetced under both European and Irish legislation.

You would wonder why they go to such expense and lengths to cull the animal seeing as the science is hardly clear cut and the protection the badger supposedly has under law. I doubt there is another species with the same protection status allowed to be slaughtered on the basis of unclear scientific evidence.

I would sometimes take people out tracking at night with me and it's always good to see the reactions when we come across wild animals like Fox and Badgers.
Most of the people having never come so close to Nature seem to adopt an instant fondness for the creatures. So much so there's a noted sense of loss when they see them dead at the side of roads. It's a worse feeling seeing them injured and dying in agony.:(

There's a Seasonal aspect to Badger road deaths with adult males patrolling their territory late January through February in search of a mate. From then on you'll see the odd one dead along the roads and sometimes the young when the adult takes them on patrol, learning.

It's down to chance with road kills and how they affect the overall population. There's nothing selective about which Badger family member gets killed, sometimes it's the Mother, sometimes the Father, sometimes the Kit/Cub.

With culling, those carrying it out do so like a military operation after the Badgers have breaded by digging in to setts and killing everything, no mercy. I've known Farmers to pipe bomb sets or employ hunters with similar compassion and leave them to their own ''device'' be it the sharp end of spades or pack dog attacks for ''sport.'' Sick.

Not sure how i would react seeing that one night while out and about.

[Bex]

I am so glad that this post is getting people talking and thinking. First, if people are interested in signing a petition against this practice, one can be found on the Wildlife Trusts website, at www.iwt.ie.

I have had my radio interview this morning. My basic point (aside from all the facts that I could give) was the people should get on to the internet and read the science themselves; that the literature and tests against badger culling as a definitive way to control TB is absolutely overwhelming (and in good company, as the likes of David Attenborough have come out against this as well. I wanted to get people to think, so tried very hard not to come over as a real animal lover (which I am). After the interview was over (11 minutes), a local farmer called in, and the radio station called me back to see if I would talk with him. I said I would. Regrettably (and unfortunately, like most farmers, I'm afraid), his 'evidence' was anecdotal and pretty inaccurate, wild, baseless figures, etc. I was able to discuss that, although Ireland gets around the Bern convention by saying this is for 'research', the carcasses are actually destroyed, never tested, etc. The 'research' is basically: if we exterminate all badgers will bTB be controlled? The radio interviewer said to me, 'frankly, badgers have no use in nature, they cannot be eaten, what difference does it make if they are done away with?' Ah, I kept my cool! I advised him that nature has a balance, whether we are aware of it or not, and if you destroy that balance, there are always consequences. I brought up the example of how, some years ago, farmers decided it was a good idea to 'exterminate' all the foxes, due to lamb losses. It was open season on fox hunting, and the population was diminished considerably. The next thing that happened was that the countryside was overrun with rabbits (they had been prey for the foxes...) I had to add that it is quite pompous of humans to continue to feel that all animals are here for our sole purpose. The radio station had apparently contacted the Dept. of Agriculture to come on to discuss this, but they had refused.
Tomorrow, the local paper is running this as a front page story, as well. It will be interesting to see what kind of public reaction there is. So far, frankly, many of the farmers probably feel that I am just a 'townie' who has absolutely no understanding of the countryside.

[Bex]

And thanks to you, too, Fraxinus, as you were the person who first started this post. How cool is it that over 53,000 people have read this (or is there just one maniac somewhere, clicking on to this 53,000 times. Hmmm...never thought of that!!)

[Bex]

Road kills taking their toll when man and nature collide, literally.:(

I wonder is there hidden motivations for this suggested mass cull such as a rise in complaints to Governments from motorists/motor insurance companies. Just a thought considering the amount of damage an adult Badger can do to fibreglass trims on cars not to mention accidents/damage caused by swerving to avoid collisions with them.


Now, this is just from what I have read, but badgers are 'protected' meaning that you and I cannot go out and kill them. Yet farmers still want them killed. Apparently badgers are often killed illegally, and then dumped on the roads to 'look' like roadkill, when in actuality, they aren't.

[Trow]

Now, this is just from what I have read, but badgers are 'protected' meaning that you and I cannot go out and kill them. Yet farmers still want them killed. Apparently badgers are often killed illegally, and then dumped on the roads to 'look' like roadkill, when in actuality, they aren't.

Yes, no doubt there will be incidents were that occurs. [dumping carcass] to look like road kills.
There certainly is illegal culling activity employing a wide range of methods. Animal protection agencies in the North of Ireland are aware of ''suspicious deaths''

If you know the habitual paths of Badger and Fox suspicions can be raised when you note the road kill being ''off the beaten track''

Were roads occur along their beaten track you'll find hollows in the hedgerows through which the Badger will travel.

Unless the farmer/hunter/slaughterer is on top of their game the keen trained eye of an animal tracker will instantly pick up on this when dead animals are found off their habitual track.

[Fraxinus]

And thanks to you, too, Fraxinus, as you were the person who first started this post. How cool is it that over 53,000 people have read this (or is there just one maniac somewhere, clicking on to this 53,000 times. Hmmm...never thought of that!!)

Jesus, can't believe that...and I swear it wasn't me clicking:D I think you deserve the thanks though Bex, starting a thread on an internet forum is one thing, having the balls to go radio and the tenacity to launch a media campaign is another. Great work.

Just to add, I've heard that if you see badger roadkill on any new motorway or dual carriage way you should contact the NPWS. The NRA have an obligation under Irish and EU legislation to protect these animals and are violating it if proper under road tunnels have not been put in place.

[Fraxinus]

The hard part is encouraging farmers not to take part in the badget cull scheme. They have a herd mentality themselves (no pun intended) where they feel they will be the odd one out if they dont participate. There should be more inspections but with the limited resources at most of the govt agencies (or so they will claim) there may not be time for inspections.

Hit the nail on the head there fluffy, the herd mentality is part of the problem. No farmer wants to be the black sheep and have all his neighbours on his case. Then there's the herd mentality of misinformation, for years the farmers around here (the oul lad tells me) were in denial that it was silage cutting that was causing corncrake numbers to plummet. Don't think you'd find a farmer now that would try and deny it.

@Anti, yea REPS seemed to be a poorly managed affair. From what I've heard a lot of REPS inspectors had no ecological background and really hadn't a clue about what environmental management was needed. I know an ecologist had to sign off on some of the reports but I don't think there was any strict overview of anything.

[Bex]

I think that, in the psychiatric dictionary, this is the definition of schizophrenia.....protecting these badgers by building road tunnels for them, and exterminating them at the same time. All done by the same government department.

And yeah, I wish I had remembered about the corncrake when I was on the radio today....all the farmers now talking about them in lovely nostalgic terms, when they were instrumental in getting rid of them, too. Ah, but then again, the radio dj today would have said...well, you can't eat them, can you? What use are they?

[Bex]

Just as an aside, (and I wish I could put this at the beginning of the post), if anyone reading this wishes to do something, the Irish Wildlife Trust has an online petition to stop badger culling.

Go to..WWW.IWT.IE and click on badger petition.

As of last night, there were only 700 or so paltry signatures. If every one of the 15,000 people who read this and agreed that the science is against culling, signed the petition, that would be pretty cool.
After all, it is time that we had some kind of voice in this country, with government, no??

[Fraxinus]

I think that, in the psychiatric dictionary, this is the definition of schizophrenia.....protecting these badgers by building road tunnels for them, and exterminating them at the same time. All done by the same government department.

And yeah, I wish I had remembered about the corncrake when I was on the radio today....all the farmers now talking about them in lovely nostalgic terms, when they were instrumental in getting rid of them, too. Ah, but then again, the radio dj today would have said...well, you can't eat them, can you? What use are they?

It'd be funny if it wasn't so unbelievably tragic. Stranger than fiction you might say.

I just put that petition in at the start as well. Cheers.

[Bex]

Great, Fraxinus. Thanks!

[Bex]

I'm giving this a wee bump...and advise that if anyone here has access to the Donegal Democrat, they are apparently running a front page spread on this issue tomorrow. Don't know what slant they will take, if any, but it might be interesting.

[Irish Wildlife Trust]

Thanks Fraximus / Bex and everyone else here. We need you all to sign our petition at www.iwt.ie and spread the word.

Go to..WWW.IWT.IE and click on badger petition.

This is David and Goliath stuff, our voices against the Government / Dept of Agriculture and IFA.

Some food for thought

Scotland is TB free as is most of mainland Europe
Scotland and other countries achieved TB free status without badger culling
Some countries such as Switzerland achieved TB free status back in the 1960's


Why do we continue with this expensive ineffective strategy in the face of our neighbours proven and successful strategies. Movement testing / restrictions / farming methods are the proven working solution along with a vaccination programme. This is where your money should be spent!

[antiestablishmentarian]

Cheers for that IWT, signed the petition. Will pass it on when I get the chance.

[Bex]

The Donegal Democrat ran a front page article today on this issue. Naturally, the spokesperson for the Irish Cattle and Sheep Assc., as well as the Dept. of Agriculture, supported the continuation of the cull. I began to realize that the Irish farmer is not going to support stopping the cull on the grounds of animal rights, but might take better notice of this if it is addressed more about Irish farming (too bad I didn't think of this earlier). I wrote a letter to the editor, as follows:

Dear Editor:

I would like to give my personal response to the article regarding badger culling in the Ballintra area. Frankly, it would seem that the Irish farmer has always been a victim of ineffective government policy and poor representation, as any Irish farmer will tell you. For example, when the bottom fell out of the cattle market some years ago, and farmers were being paid substandard prices for their cattle, this reduction in wholesale value was never reflected in any retail price. What other industry operates where the cost for raw material drops considerably, yet the retail price stays the same or rises? Private industry normally does not work this way, yet the farmers were forced to accept low prices for their raw material, while others actually profited more from the low wholesale price. What kind of representation do they have that allows such practices to occur? There is no other industry that is forced to accept policies such as this.
It is time that the Irish farmer become more pro-active in policies that affect them, and be wary of anecdotal information that continues to affect their livelihood. In the article that appeared on 17/11, the ICSA spokesman advised that 'nearly half of the badgers culled were found to have TB'. This is untrue, and unsupported by ALL research that has been done in this area. Yet, it appears that the Irish farmer takes this information at face value, without confirming whether or not this is correct.
The Dept. of Agriculture spokesperson stated that 'its strategy has been developed as a result of extensive Irish research'. This blatantly flies in the face of _an actual study done in Donegal itself_, and published in the Irish Veterinary Journal in 2006 (v59) which stated 'infected badgers remain as a possible but less likely source of infection'. There is a wealth of factual and scientific information on the internet that now allows the Irish farmer to see the facts as they are, not rely on the 'agenda' of poor representation and policy, and become more pro-active in the policies that affect their livelihood.
The import of my concern here, badger welfare aside, is that it is time for the Irish farmer to read for himself, stop relying on anecdotal information that is not based on fact or research, and break the cycle of such victimization in his industry.

Hopefully this might get some farmers thinking. All they need to do is just READ, and they can immediately learn what a time and money waster this culling policy is.

[fluffybiscuits]

Hit the nail on the head there fluffy, the herd mentality is part of the problem. No farmer wants to be the black sheep and have all his neighbours on his case. Then there's the herd mentality of misinformation, for years the farmers around here (the oul lad tells me) were in denial that it was silage cutting that was causing corncrake numbers to plummet. Don't think you'd find a farmer now that would try and deny it.

@Anti, yea REPS seemed to be a poorly managed affair. From what I've heard a lot of REPS inspectors had no ecological background and really hadn't a clue about what environmental management was needed. I know an ecologist had to sign off on some of the reports but I don't think there was any strict overview of anything.

The silage cutting was always blamed for the fall in corn crake numbers and its true but most never thought of that and as per usual thought of no one but themselves. Until the EU came in and gave us environmetnally sustainable legislation it was a case of each man for themselves.

@IWF, thanks to you and Bex and the rest for highlighting this issue. Its certainly one for looking into.

[Bex]

Scotland has been granted TB free status, without the culling of badgers. The government is doing this through a movement, hygiene and fencing campaign. Strangely, the fencing campaign has nothing to do with badgers at all, but prevents oral contamination between cattle in one field and another.
It would seem that the farmers are being misled here, and frankly, I don't quite understand why. You would think that the Irish government could take the Scottish example and put it into place here. Although, perhaps movement, hygiene and fencing is too troublesome?

[fluffybiscuits]

Scotland has been granted TB free status, without the culling of badgers. The government is doing this through a movement, hygiene and fencing campaign. Strangely, the fencing campaign has nothing to do with badgers at all, but prevents oral contamination between cattle in one field and another.
It would seem that the farmers are being misled here, and frankly, I don't quite understand why. You would think that the Irish government could take the Scottish example and put it into place here. Although, perhaps movement, hygiene and fencing is too troublesome?

Funnily enough they wont listen to us either. Despite e mails and queries over the years I always find its hard to get a response out of a lot of people!

[antiestablishmentarian]

Scotland has been granted TB free status, without the culling of badgers. The government is doing this through a movement, hygiene and fencing campaign. Strangely, the fencing campaign has nothing to do with badgers at all, but prevents oral contamination between cattle in one field and another.
It would seem that the farmers are being misled here, and frankly, I don't quite understand why. You would think that the Irish government could take the Scottish example and put it into place here. Although, perhaps movement, hygiene and fencing is too troublesome?

There are other variables to take into account, alot of farmers are elderly and do not have the ability (or finances perhaps) to properly care for their farms and run them on a scientific basis.

[Irish Wildlife Trust]

There are other variables to take into account, alot of farmers are elderly and do not have the ability (or finances perhaps) to properly care for their farms and run them on a scientific basis.

Now we are getting somewhere. If we want to be TB free then Farmers need help to make this happen. Particularly from the scientific and financial point of view. Badger proofing farms (gates / walls / troughs / feeders etc.) needs proper governmental guidance and financial support. This in parallel with movement restrictions and improved testing means the money used is invested in our future. It strenghtens our economy and makes our agricultural exports more marketable. There are so many wins here as opposed to the current system of slaughtering thousands of badgers year in year out at huge expence without any real benefit

[Bex]

I don't know if I can agree with the theory that alot of farmers are elderly and can't properly care for their farms. Aside from the fact that this logic is like saying a lot of restaurant owners are elderly, so can't adhere to HACCP conditions or keep their kitchens hygienic. I'm not sure that this is an argument, nor do I really think that this is really true. I would imagine that the ages of Irish farmers are not substantially different than those is Scotland.
The Dept of Agriculture rep advised me that pre-movement testing is not viable in Ireland, as many farms are fractured, with fields in different areas. Yet, however, this program was in place until 1996 in this country, and was effective. I would assume that perhaps farmers (and their representation) might have found this testing 'cumbersome' to do, and their reps fought for this requirement to be shelved to make it easier on the farmer. However, I don't find that this is a good argument, and obviously was not even a good position, however convenient, as the incidence of bTB almost doubled between 1996-1999, even though culling was still taking place.

[Bex]

By the way, there are now over 55,000 views on this thread.....

[5intheface]

The badger is a fantastic animal to watch and I am lucky enough to live where I can see two badger tracks without even leaving the house, that said, my neighbour and me have been going out at dusk during the spring and summer for years to see what they are up to.

There is one spot on the narrow point of a dog leg field between the moss and a scrub hill where we have seen a line of them crossing at times which is spectacular.

We were warned when we were young about what badgers might do if you cornered them. Nonsense no doubt but that fear still involuntarily grips me during a close encounter.

We were also told that badgers had bad eyesight but their sense of smell was so brilliant that if they got wind of you they would scarper. That was nonsense too, numerous times I've had them stare at me form only a few yards before trundling on as unconcerned as you like.

Also witnessed a couple of stand-offs between a collie dog and badgers, that's intense.

The thought of that ending here for the sake of a few acres with cattle set in miles of protected raised upland bog is sickening.

[Fraxinus]

The badger is a fantastic animal to watch and I am lucky enough to live where I can see two badger tracks without even leaving the house, that said, my neighbour and me have been going out at dusk during the spring and summer for years to see what they are up to.

There is one spot on the narrow point of a dog leg field between the moss and a scrub hill where we have seen a line of them crossing at times which is spectacular.

We were warned when we were young about what badgers might do if you cornered them. Nonsense no doubt but that fear still involuntarily grips me during a close encounter.

We were also told that badgers had bad eyesight but their sense of smell was so brilliant that if they got wind of you they would scarper. That was nonsense too, numerous times I've had them stare at me form only a few yards before trundling on as unconcerned as you like.

Also witnessed a couple of stand-offs between a collie dog and badgers, that's intense.

The thought of that ending here for the sake of a few acres with cattle set in miles of protected raised upland bog is sickening.

Oh I'm envious 5. I've never had the pleasure of seeing a live badger:( Hard to know if there are many in my area, there isn't any woodland. Where are your badgers found?

[C. Flower]

By the way, there are now over 55,000 views on this thread.....

Nearly 65,000 now. Are all the badgers logging in?

[Fraxinus]

The silage cutting was always blamed for the fall in corn crake numbers and its true but most never thought of that and as per usual thought of no one but themselves. Until the EU came in and gave us environmetnally sustainable legislation it was a case of each man for themselves.

@IWF, thanks to you and Bex and the rest for highlighting this issue. Its certainly one for looking into.

Do you know the mad thing fluffy, habitat and species have become ever more threatened since our entry into the EU and the adoption of the CAP. There has been a sharp decline in the quality of our environment since 1973 in no small part due to the intensive farming that became the norm throughout the country. Yet the EU on the otherhand have brought conservation protection measures like the SAC's.
It's as mad as the Irish government forcing road constructors to protect badgers yet they fully support the TB culls. The EU are doing the same with SAC's on one side and CAP on the other. This level of schizophrenia is worthy of Captain Con's Overt and Clandestine thread!:)

[C. Flower]

Oh I'm envious 5. I've never had the pleasure of seeing a live badger:( Hard to know if there are many in my area, there isn't any woodland. Where are your badgers found?

I've never seen a live one, although I sat up all night and watched a sett once.
They either overslept, or were behind a hillock somewhere watching me.

Once I picked up a baby badger, from the road, and moved it to the ditch. There wasn't a mark on it, and I thought perhaps it was only stunned, and didn't want to leave it there to be run over.

It was only a foot and a half long, I'd say, but so heavy that it was hard to carry. All bone?

[Fraxinus]

Nearly 65,000 now. Are all the badgers logging in?

Suppose if they have TV setts it's no surprise they'd have computers:)

[Bex]

Yeah, this is weird. Is there something wrong with the counting mechanism on the forum? Are there that many badger lovers? Or are people drawn in by the 70 millions euro? If they all would have gone over to sign the petition, it would have been blown out of the water in just a few days.

[C. Flower]

Yeah, this is weird. Is there something wrong with the counting mechanism on the forum? Are there that many badger lovers? Or are people drawn in by the 70 millions euro? If they all would have gone over to sign the petition, it would have been blown out of the water in just a few days.

We have a team of experts working on it :cool:;)

[Bex]

Working on what? Fixing the counter? Or saving the badger?? :p

Frankly, how cool would that be if, through this forum, we were actually able to effect some change. Gosh, I'm beginning to feel empowered......

[Bex]

I have just sent this email to everyone in my address book:

Please go on this site and sign the petition:

http://www.change.org/petitions/irish-petition-against-badger-cull-to-minister-for-agriculture-simon-coveney-stop-badger-culling-in-ireland

The above petition is from the Irish Wildlife Trust. The Department of Agriculture have put a culling program into place that will basically exterminate most of the badgers in Ireland, as the government has convinced farmers that this is an efficient thing to do, to stop bovine TB. If you google 'cull badgers' you will see the preponderance of evidence shows that this has perhaps a 16% effectiveness. The badgers are snared in wire hoops that have been outlawed in all but 5 EU countries as being inhumane and cruel. Scotland has been listed as bTB free, through a program of hygiene, registration and fencing, without depletion of this native animal

I would appreciate it if you would send the link to everyone on your contacts list (think of this as one of those awful email chain letters.....if you do this, your wish will be granted at 11:47 tonight. If you don't, camels will enter your sitting room and refuse to leave).

I am hoping that you take just one minute to do this. Please.


Maybe everyone else here who is interested can do the same.... Thanks.

[5intheface]

Oh I'm envious 5. I've never had the pleasure of seeing a live badger:( Hard to know if there are many in my area, there isn't any woodland. Where are your badgers found?

There are several setts that I know of just in this corner of the townland but I am lucky that one of their tracks crosses from the neighbours fields (the dog-leg one) into our fields going straight over our lane. In June July around 10-10.30pm, you are almost guaranteed to see at least one there.

For some reason, when they get on the lane, they run up and down several times before going into our fields. There is another track out the back of the house, just on the other side of the fence but you normally only notice them after the silage has been cut and the grass is very low.

Interestingly, the foxes use the same tracks but the hares do something weird when they use them, doubling back and jumping over as they go approximately the same way.

About a quarter of a mile back into the moss, there is an overgrown rodden which was once a right of way to the old chapel and there are a couple of big setts (or several entries anyway). Couple of years back, I was out on ot with 3 brothers, one was complaining that he seemed to miss everything. He stopped and looked into a set and then moved on. When 2 more of us came level with it and looked in, a badger appeared momentarily at the opening. :) It was that old kitkat pandas ad.

We always go out on the night the silage is cut which is usually around the longest day and one year, I was able to film 2 badgers making their way tight to the hedge, up over a hill and down to the point where they entered my property, that was something special.

If you have never seen one live and in motion then you are in for a treat when you do, there is something mesmerising about their gait which a video does not capture.

[Fraxinus]

There are several setts that I know of just in this corner of the townland but I am lucky that one of their tracks crosses from the neighbours fields (the dog-leg one) into our fields going straight over our lane. In June July around 10-10.30pm, you are almost guaranteed to see at least one there.

For some reason, when they get on the lane, they run up and down several times before going into our fields. There is another track out the back of the house, just on the other side of the fence but you normally only notice them after the silage has been cut and the grass is very low.

Interestingly, the foxes use the same tracks but the hares do something weird when they use them, doubling back and jumping over as they go approximately the same way.

About a quarter of a mile back into the moss, there is an overgrown rodden which was once a right of way to the old chapel and there are a couple of big setts (or several entries anyway). Couple of years back, I was out on ot with 3 brothers, one was complaining that he seemed to miss everything. He stopped and looked into a set and then moved on. When 2 more of us came level with it and looked in, a badger appeared momentarily at the opening. :) It was that old kitkat pandas ad.

We always go out on the night the silage is cut which is usually around the longest day and one year, I was able to film 2 badgers making their way tight to the hedge, up over a hill and down to the point where they entered my property, that was something special.

If you have never seen one live and in motion then you are in for a treat when you do, there is something mesmerising about their gait which a video does not capture.

Deadly! I'm going to have to do more night prowling:)

Do they have there setts in woods or just hedgerows? What's the rodden?

[5intheface]

Deadly! I'm going to have to do more night prowling:)

Do they have there setts in woods or just hedgerows? What's the rodden?

Both, although the woods are just planted bogs, their setts tend to be on the edge though, presumably the moss itself is not suitable. Fairly sure there is one in a dense thicket of scrub which is completely inaccessible.

Rodden is a moss lane, not sure how widespread that word is, knowing my luck it'll turn out to be ulster-scots, they have already stolen 'lonan'. :)

[Bex]

They normally like to have their setts in a woodland or hedgerow that is on some kind of slope, as they don't like digging down, but like digging into, if you know what I mean. They try to find places that have good drainage. They are incredible animals, and very clean, contrary to what the Dept of Agriculture will tell you. They actually have a separate dug out area for their loo. The setts can often have up to 20 entrances, and is a maze of underground tunnels. They have actually found setts here that are over 100 years old. I am hoping that you are all going on to the IWT site and signing the petition, and getting all your contacts to sign, as well. I hope we don't lose momentum here.

[Fraxinus]

Both, although the woods are just planted bogs, their setts tend to be on the edge though, presumably the moss itself is not suitable. Fairly sure there is one in a dense thicket of scrub which is completely inaccessible.

Rodden is a moss lane, not sure how widespread that word is, knowing my luck it'll turn out to be ulster-scots, they have already stolen 'lonan'. :)

Ha, next you'll be telling us that small buck with the mandolin who sings Ulster-Scots songs is your neighbour:D

[5intheface]

They normally like to have their setts in a woodland or hedgerow that is on some kind of slope, as they don't like digging down, but like digging into, if you know what I mean. They try to find places that have good drainage. They are incredible animals, and very clean, contrary to what the Dept of Agriculture will tell you. They actually have a separate dug out area for their loo. The setts can often have up to 20 entrances, and is a maze of underground tunnels. They have actually found setts here that are over 100 years old. I am hoping that you are all going on to the IWT site and signing the petition, and getting all your contacts to sign, as well. I hope we don't lose momentum here.

That would fit with what I see around here.

[5intheface]

Ha, next you'll be telling us that small buck with the mandolin who sings Ulster-Scots songs is your neighbour:D

Awa ye gae an boil yir heed.

[Spectabilis]

'Go away and boil your head'
Is that the translation? Can I add another language to my CV?

But is that a nice response to Fraxinus I ask. In any language?:confused:

[Fraxinus]

Awa ye gae an boil yir heed.

Am oonly jockin wi ya! (Not bad for a first timer!):cool:

[5intheface]

I'm not joking, I heard them say that the U-S for badger was brock! Now why does that sound familiar?

[Spectabilis]

Ah gae up. Ah gae in:)

[5intheface]

'Go away and boil your head'
Is that the translation? Can I add another language to my CV?


No, you can add 2, west Ulster-Scots and East Ulster_Scots. :)

[Fraxinus]

I'm not joking, I heard them say that the U-S for badger was brock! Now why does that sound familiar?

Let me guess, they probably say that comes from an Old English word and came about completely independent of the similar Gallick version.:rolleyes:

[Spectabilis]

Oh fabby! Thanks 5.:)
Now I have to go and study linguistics for a week to figure oot wha thee are, Noo?:eek:

[Fraxinus]

Is my Connacht-Scots getting no recognition? It's nothing short of a disgrace.

[Spectabilis]

There must be an Ombud somewhere for Connacht-Scots, Fraxinus. Surely?

[5intheface]

Is my Connacht-Scots getting no recognition? It's nothing short of a disgrace.

Be careful what you wish for. :eek:

[Fraxinus]

Fraxinus: Ooh! Ah, that's it. I'm going to report this to me member of parliament.
[yells out window]
Fraxinus: Hey, PJ! I got something to report to you.
[As PJ tends his swine]
PJ: That's a bloody outrage, it is! I want to take this all the way to the Prime Minister.
[they go down to a lake]
PJ: Hey! Mr. Prime Minister! Ned!
Prime Minister Ned: [floating naked on an inner tube with a beer] Eh, mates! What's the good word?

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/local/badger_cull_inhumane_resident_claims_1_3257460

Some bloke from the Irish sheep farmers association agrees with it. Never knew we had an association of sheep farmers...

[Trow]

Deadly! I'm going to have to do more night prowling:)

You sure you did'nt catch the Spirit of something round those ''Fairy Forts'' Fraxinus?

Check out the Hedgerows around fields, in the day time for entrances. In Woodlands, usually into a hill or mound. If there's the occasional Tree around the edge of the field check that out too but not in the branches.:) Badger often tunnel under trees.

Some good Youtube material on Badgers and other Wild Animals. If you's are over that way thumbs down the cruel ones.

[Fraxinus]

You sure you did'nt catch the Spirit of something round those ''Fairy Forts'' Fraxinus?

Check out the Hedgerows around fields, in the day time for entrances. In Woodlands, usually into a hill or mound. If there's the occasional Tree around the edge of the field check that out too but not in the branches.:) Badger often tunnel under trees.

Some good Youtube material on Badgers and other Wild Animals. If you's are over that way thumbs down the cruel ones.

Haha, the spirit of nature maybe!:)

Good idea. Need to know where their setts are first before I know where to look out for them!

I'll be keeping quiet if I do find any. There's no badger culls here that I know of and I want it to stay that way.

[5intheface]

Haha, the spirit of nature maybe!:)

Good idea. Need to know where their setts are first before I know where to look out for them!

I'll be keeping quiet if I do find any. There's no badger culls here that I know of and I want it to stay that way.

Not that hard to spot their tracks either frax if you think there are some in the area. Narrow points between cover are a good place to start but maybe not the best time of year for it.

[Trow]

You sure you did'nt catch the Spirit of something round those ''Fairy Forts'' Fraxinus?

Check out the Hedgerows around fields, in the day time for entrances. In Woodlands, usually into a hill or mound. If there's the occasional Tree around the edge of the field check that out too but not in the branches.:) Badger often tunnel under trees.

Some good Youtube material on Badgers and other Wild Animals. If you's are over that way thumbs down the cruel ones.


Haha, the spirit of nature maybe!:)

Good idea. Need to know where their setts are first before I know where to look out for them!

I'll be keeping quiet if I do find any. There's no badger culls here that I know of and I want it to stay that way.

That's the Spirit.;)

You'd be surprised how close Nature [Wild Animals] like that are to your doorstep no matter were you live.

Whole different World though when you come to know it from their side.

[Fraxinus]

That's the Spirit.;)

You'd be surprised how close Nature [Wild Animals] like that are to your doorstep no matter were you live.

Whole different World though when you come to know it from their side.

There's no shortage of stoates, hares and foxes around here, even mink. There's supposed to be otters in the lake behind the the house but I've yet to spot one. Been meaning to camp down there and do a night watch! Never heard anyone mention badgers strangely.

[Fraxinus]

Not that hard to spot their tracks either frax if you think there are some in the area. Narrow points between cover are a good place to start but maybe not the best time of year for it.

I'll keep that in mind, not all the vegetation has fully died back yet due to it being such a mild November. I've even seen Primroses in flower in the hedgerows and the daffodils are starting to grow in the garden....weird!

[5intheface]

There's no shortage of stoates.

They're called whitreds here, maybe everywhere for all I know but that might just really be Ulster-Scots.

Heard it said it comes from 'White Rat' but others say 'White Throat'.

My father would have used it to desribe a diminuitive and cantankerous sort of person.

[Fraxinus]

They're called whitreds here, maybe everywhere for all I know but that might just really be Ulster-Scots.

Heard it said it comes from 'White Rat' but others say 'White Throat'.

My father would have used it to desribe a diminuitive and cantankerous sort of person.

There could be truth in both because sometimes stoats can change to white fur in winter but don't think it's too common for it to happen in Ireland, and if it was I'd say Ulster direction would be the most likely.

They are a brilliant predator for their size. Starlings had nested in a cavity block in our shed wall, up about 6 ft from the ground. The stoat came up the garden one day and took every last chick from the nest. Very sad to watch the mother starling calling for ages in a nearby tree, the closest I've come to seeing a bird cry. But we have very little in the way of rats around here too and I'm putting it down to the stoat, they're meant to be mighty for hunting rodents.

[Count Bobulescu]

I have no interest in this thread and haven't read any posts, but 100 replies and 75,000 + views in about a week, man, the porn merchants would die for those stats. Whasup?

[antiestablishmentarian]

[QUOTE]I don't know if I can agree with the theory that alot of farmers are elderly and can't properly care for their farms. Aside from the fact that this logic is like saying a lot of restaurant owners are elderly, so can't adhere to HACCP conditions or keep their kitchens hygienic. I'm not sure that this is an argument, nor do I really think that this is really true. I would imagine that the ages of Irish farmers are not substantially different than those is Scotland.
Most farmers are over the age of 44 Bex, and that age profile has been increasing. Although there may be some uptake in people staying on the land because of the recession, more young will emigrate rather than stay to work unviable holdings.
Age Profile of Farmers

Less than 12% of Irish farmers are under 35 years of age. Less than 31% are 44 years or less and the trend is downwards. At the other end of the scale the number of farmers 65 years and older has remained at over 22% for the last number of years.

Much attention has been given to these two problems over the years and despite promises, land policies, documents and pronouncements and schemes such as the farmer retirement scheme there has been no significant or real change in the structure and age profile of Irish farmers.http://www.agri-vision2015.ie/agrifood/Sub07.htm


The Dept of Agriculture rep advised me that pre-movement testing is not viable in Ireland, as many farms are fractured, with fields in different areas. Yet, however, this program was in place until 1996 in this country, and was effective. I would assume that perhaps farmers (and their representation) might have found this testing 'cumbersome' to do, and their reps fought for this requirement to be shelved to make it easier on the farmer. However, I don't find that this is a good argument, and obviously was not even a good position, however convenient, as the incidence of bTB almost doubled between 1996-1999, even though culling was still taking place.
This is more of a problem in the West, as holdings tend to be parcelled out, difficult to access and often too small to be economically viable as a modern farm. While machinery has made it easier to complete tasks, there are still many tasks that are physically demanding like fencing off holdings properly.

[antiestablishmentarian]

I have no interest in this thread and haven't read any posts, but 100 replies and 75,000 + views in about a week, man, the porn merchants would die for those stats. Whasup?

Badger culling has been in the news in a few countries so possibly we're getting more views and interest from foreign observers.

[Count Bobulescu]

Badger culling has been in the news in a few countries so possibly we're getting more views and interest from foreign observers.

Like there are these big secret pro & anti Badger Culling internet “Flashmobs” out there that just descend? Think I’ll pass that one on to me buhhdy Larry. W. Byrant, over in the UFO thread.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Like there are these big secret pro & anti Badger Culling internet “Flashmobs” out there that just descend? Think I’ll pass that one on to me buhhdy Larry. W. Byrant, over in the UFO thread.

Have you a better explanation?

[Irish Wildlife Trust]

Hi C Flower, delighted to hear you have a team of experts on the case. Got any leads?? All joking aside though, is the count genuine and is it possible to reach out to these hitters?? We could make serious headway in stopping the culling with these kinds of numbers

[Bex]

[quote=Bex;201869]
Most farmers are over the age of 44 Bex, and that age profile has been increasing.
I would hardly call 44, or 54 or 60 'elderly'. Frankly, most of these guys have been working the fields for a lifetime, and are in far better shape than most 30 year olds sitting at their desk.
Again, much of the research indicates hygiene as a factor here. Ireland is a perfect place for TB bacteria to survive. It is mild and damp. Add 'muck' to that equation, and you have TB heaven. TB can live in these conditions for over 300 days, as in almost a year. This was a factor in the enormous amount of TB in the human population here as well. But again, if someone is, for example, 65, and is too 'elderly' to keep his holding hygienic, or too 'elderly' to have proper fencing, etc., does that logic not spread to all businesses?? If so, then the 'elderly' should not own restaurants (certainly they are therefore unable to adapt to hygiene measures). There is no compensation in any industry, for lax regulations, just because you are of a certain age.


[quote=Bex;201869]This is more of a problem in the West, as holdings tend to be parcelled out, difficult to access and often too small to be economically viable as a modern farm. While machinery has made it easier to complete tasks, there are still many tasks that are physically demanding like fencing off holdings properly.
The Department of Agriculture uses this as an excuse, that Ireland is 'different' than all other UK countries as farms are fragmented, and it is therefore cumbersome for the farmer to adhere to pre-movement testing. But you must remember that pre-movement testing was in effect here up until 1996. When that regulation was lifted, bTB almost doubled within 3 years. The result of this certainly says something.

It is interesting to note that, if you google this issue, ALL of the sites that indicate that badger culling is effective, are POLITICAL sites, ie, Farmer Journal, farming associations, etc. The sites that indicate culling is ineffective are either SCIENTIFIC journals, or, of course, animal rights sites. I have not found one scientific site yet that indicates that badger culling reduces this problem in any percentage of more than 25%. This means, mathematically, that something else is contributing 75% to this issue. So, my logical question to you, if you were ill, would you be satisfied with a medicine that the doctor told you worked 25% of the time? Or would you put your efforts into researching that other 75%???

I also read this post, from a farmer, on another forum, dated 2007, when this was again, and Irish issue:

"having grown up on a farm and having had many tb reactors on our farm, I would be inclined to question that tb also creates cheap meat for factorys (from reactors) plus vets and dept agri vets benefit from tb testing costs etc....Maybe I am being harsh but I seen cattle fail tb tests, and they were housed for three months in winter, and not in contact with any sort of animals.."


Perhaps this is an issue just like everything else....you gotta 'follow the money'. If you do that, with the badger issue, it becomes even more interesting......

[Irish Wildlife Trust]

There are 6.5 million head of cattle in Ireland today and somewhere between 60 to 90 thousand badgers. That's a ratio of approx 100:1. Cattle to cattle is the big issue and that is where movement restrictions and better testing is required. Its laughable that they use 'Ireland being different' as an excuse for their failure. Yes Ireland is different, its a small island which makes it easier to solve and manage Tb issues in a sustainable manner

[fluffybiscuits]

Like there are these big secret pro & anti Badger Culling internet “Flashmobs” out there that just descend? Think I’ll pass that one on to me buhhdy Larry. W. Byrant, over in the UFO thread.

You dont need to be condescending mate...:rolleyes:

[C. Flower]

I have no interest in this thread and haven't read any posts, but 100 replies and 75,000 + views in about a week, man, the porn merchants would die for those stats. Whasup?

It would be appreciated if you and anyone else interested in stats rather than badgers continue the discussion on a Feedback thread, as these posts are disrupting the discussion just a little.

[fluffybiscuits]

[QUOTE=antiestablishmentarian;202137]
I would hardly call 44, or 54 or 60 'elderly'. Frankly, most of these guys have been working the fields for a lifetime, and are in far better shape than most 30 year olds sitting at their desk.
Again, much of the research indicates hygiene as a factor here. Ireland is a perfect place for TB bacteria to survive. It is mild and damp. Add 'muck' to that equation, and you have TB heaven. TB can live in these conditions for over 300 days, as in almost a year. This was a factor in the enormous amount of TB in the human population here as well. But again, if someone is, for example, 65, and is too 'elderly' to keep his holding hygienic, or too 'elderly' to have proper fencing, etc., does that logic not spread to all businesses?? If so, then the 'elderly' should not own restaurants (certainly they are therefore unable to adapt to hygiene measures). There is no compensation in any industry, for lax regulations, just because you are of a certain age.

[QUOTE=antiestablishmentarian;202137]
The Department of Agriculture uses this as an excuse, that Ireland is 'different' than all other UK countries as farms are fragmented, and it is therefore cumbersome for the farmer to adhere to pre-movement testing. But you must remember that pre-movement testing was in effect here up until 1996. When that regulation was lifted, bTB almost doubled within 3 years. The result of this certainly says something.

It is interesting to note that, if you google this issue, ALL of the sites that indicate that badger culling is effective, are POLITICAL sites, ie, Farmer Journal, farming associations, etc. The sites that indicate culling is ineffective are either SCIENTIFIC journals, or, of course, animal rights sites. I have not found one scientific site yet that indicates that badger culling reduces this problem in any percentage of more than 25%. This means, mathematically, that something else is contributing 75% to this issue. So, my logical question to you, if you were ill, would you be satisfied with a medicine that the doctor told you worked 25% of the time? Or would you put your efforts into researching that other 75%???

I also read this post, from a farmer, on another forum, dated 2007, when this was again, and Irish issue:

"having grown up on a farm and having had many tb reactors on our farm, I would be inclined to question that tb also creates cheap meat for factorys (from reactors) plus vets and dept agri vets benefit from tb testing costs etc....Maybe I am being harsh but I seen cattle fail tb tests, and they were housed for three months in winter, and not in contact with any sort of animals.."


Perhaps this is an issue just like everything else....you gotta 'follow the money'. If you do that, with the badger issue, it becomes even more interesting......

At the end of the day it all comes down to the money for them. What ever means reaping a profit at the end of the day although it has to be acknowledged that a lot of farms are making a loss but it would be great if they took ethical concerns into account. I came across a site called TB Free England. They have a few pictures which detail some of the ways that farmers can protect their land from badgers if they feel they are a threat. (I would go as far as to say perhaps even some scrap metal may do the job for them).

http://www.tbfreeengland.co.uk/Pictures-and-Videos/Biosecurity,-badgers-and-bTB---pictures/

One particular good idea I thought was to raise the water trough or the feeding trough on to a wall. That way the badgets cant climb on to it foraging for food.

[Bex]

[quote=Bex;202186]

One particular good idea I thought was to raise the water trough or the feeding trough on to a wall. That way the badgets cant climb on to it foraging for food.

This is something else that puzzles me. Badgers are nocturnal animals. They don't come out to feed in the day. In summer, nuts might be given to cattle in a trough, but would certainly be gone by nighttime, so no available food for the badger. In winter, if cattle are in, they are normally in sheds or pens with a concrete floor, so that the perimeter is certainly easy to make 'badger proof'. Badgers cannot dig through a concrete floor. I have seen photos on the internet (normally with the farming journals) showing a badger standing in the middle of a herd of cattle, in the daytime. You don't see a badger in the daytime (unless it is sick) and they are normally timid animals (they run away from my cats, even), so I wouldn't think a badger would be standing in the middle of a bunch of cattle. I think much of the info on many of these sites is a bit propagandized in order to further their cause. It is always easy to give responsibility for your hardships to something else, rather than shouldering the responsibility yourself.

[fluffybiscuits]

[QUOTE=fluffybiscuits;202218]

This is something else that puzzles me. Badgers are nocturnal animals. They don't come out to feed in the day. In summer, nuts might be given to cattle in a trough, but would certainly be gone by nighttime, so no available food for the badger. In winter, if cattle are in, they are normally in sheds or pens with a concrete floor, so that the perimeter is certainly easy to make 'badger proof'. Badgers cannot dig through a concrete floor. I have seen photos on the internet (normally with the farming journals) showing a badger standing in the middle of a herd of cattle, in the daytime. You don't see a badger in the daytime (unless it is sick) and they are normally timid animals (they run away from my cats, even), so I wouldn't think a badger would be standing in the middle of a bunch of cattle. I think much of the info on many of these sites is a bit propagandized in order to further their cause. It is always easy to give responsibility for your hardships to something else, rather than shouldering the responsibility yourself.

Saw a few of those pictures online and it didnt occur to me. They are mainly noctunral perhaps the day time pics are somewhat doctored in a way. I thought the idea with the trough set against the wall was particularly good :)

[PaddyJoe]

Here's the Donegal Democrat piece that Bex referred to further up the thread:

A local resident has condemned a badger cull that is currently being carried out in the Ballintra area as being ‘inhumane, barbaric and ineffective’.

Jane Brown told the Donegal Democrat that the restraining snares used to capture the badgers have been outlawed in all but five EU countries on the basis that they are inhumane. She believes the British approach, of using cages rather than snares, should be adopted. She also challenged the logic of culling badgers “when other animals, such as rats, deer and foxes are known to spread TB”. Ms Brown accused the Dept. of Agriculture of having a policy of seeking to completely eradicate badgers. She said she wanted other people “to research the issue for themselves and make up their own minds up” about whether it should be allowed to continue.
http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/local/badger_cull_inhumane_resident_claims_1_3257460

[Bex]

Just for your info, I also contacted 38 degrees:
http://38degrees.org.uk/
They are a big UK political advocacy group, and one of their campaigns is dealing with the badger culling situation in the UK. They often wield their weight effectively, too:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/31/badger-cull-campaign-38-degrees
There are apparently no similar groups in Ireland, unfortunately.

[Bex]

And for anyone really interested, this is a link to DEFRA's somewhat editorialised results to the large badger cull campaign in England:

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/tb-control-measures/100915-tb-control-measures-annexb.pdf

Proactive culling in a 150km square area, reduced cattle infection by 23.2%. Hmmm....what does this actually mean in real terms? It means that 17 of 75 outbreaks of TB were prevented by proactive culling. Which means that culling had absolutely no effect on 58 our of 75 instances. A good reason to dump all this money into such an ineffective campaign, then.

[Bex]

This thread is getting so long, I don't know if I posted this already. Just as an aside, someone sent me this little blurb:
Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

I have sent the following letter to the Farmer's Journal Letters to the Editor. It's titled 'No wonder the Irish family farm is dying out'. Dunno if they will respond or publish, or even think about it:

Dear Editor,
I am not a farmer, although I live in a farm community, and my initial interest in research was as a direct result of badger culling in my townland. My personal opinions about this matter aside, it quickly became evident that much government and association representation for the Irish farmer was inept and counter-productive, at best. What kind of representation is it, when you convince farmers that accepting a badger cull scheme, wherein, according to scientific study (most notably, the Independent Scientific Group on Cattle TB, presented to the UK government on 18 June 2007), a proactive 5 year culling scheme in a 150 square kilometer area, would produce a 23.2% reduction in cattle TB? In presenting these figures to the Irish farmer, at first glance, perhaps it can be understood that this looks like a positive result. However, can the Irish farmer not do the maths and see that, in reality, this means that 17.4 out of 75 breakdowns are prevented? Which also means that 57.6 breakdowns are NOT prevented? This study actually indicated that, over the course of 7.5 years, the actual 'improvement', with all factors taken into account, resulted in the prevention of 22.6 of 187 breakdowns. Meaning, of course, that 164.4 breakdown STILL OCCURRED in this test group. The Irish farmer has been led to believe that the various government departments, veterinary associations, etc., who support this scheme, are working in their best interests, and truly making an effort to reduce the awful consequences of bTB on the Irish farm. I put forward to you that bTB 'control' is rife with various organisations profiting from the continuing existence of bTB, as well as 'pseudo' control measures, at the expense of the Irish farmer and his livelihood. It is time that the members of the farming community researched policies on their own, and refrain from allowing counterproductive measures to dictate and diminish their livelihood.

Respectfully submitted,

[fluffybiscuits]

This thread is getting so long, I don't know if I posted this already. Just as an aside, someone sent me this little blurb:
Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

I have sent the following letter to the Farmer's Journal Letters to the Editor. It's titled 'No wonder the Irish family farm is dying out'. Dunno if they will respond or publish, or even think about it:

Dear Editor,
I am not a farmer, although I live in a farm community, and my initial interest in research was as a direct result of badger culling in my townland. My personal opinions about this matter aside, it quickly became evident that much government and association representation for the Irish farmer was inept and counter-productive, at best. What kind of representation is it, when you convince farmers that accepting a badger cull scheme, wherein, according to scientific study (most notably, the Independent Scientific Group on Cattle TB, presented to the UK government on 18 June 2007), a proactive 5 year culling scheme in a 150 square kilometer area, would produce a 23.2% reduction in cattle TB? In presenting these figures to the Irish farmer, at first glance, perhaps it can be understood that this looks like a positive result. However, can the Irish farmer not do the maths and see that, in reality, this means that 17.4 out of 75 breakdowns are prevented? Which also means that 57.6 breakdowns are NOT prevented? This study actually indicated that, over the course of 7.5 years, the actual 'improvement', with all factors taken into account, resulted in the prevention of 22.6 of 187 breakdowns. Meaning, of course, that 164.4 breakdown STILL OCCURRED in this test group. The Irish farmer has been led to believe that the various government departments, veterinary associations, etc., who support this scheme, are working in their best interests, and truly making an effort to reduce the awful consequences of bTB on the Irish farm. I put forward to you that bTB 'control' is rife with various organisations profiting from the continuing existence of bTB, as well as 'pseudo' control measures, at the expense of the Irish farmer and his livelihood. It is time that the members of the farming community researched policies on their own, and refrain from allowing counterproductive measures to dictate and diminish their livelihood.

Respectfully submitted,

From reading the Farmers Journal online they seem to deal a lot in Agribusiness I ran a search on their website for more info on the badger culls and the informtion was scant. If the Farmers Journal reads this, ask your readers what they think of the disgusting practice of badger culling and if they are really that materialistic to be motivated by something like money. There is measures out there that dont cost a fortune but will ensure there is a minimal risk to their herds. Good work Bex btw

[Count Bobulescu]

It would be appreciated if you and anyone else interested in stats rather than badgers continue the discussion on a Feedback thread, as these posts are disrupting the discussion just a little.

Apologies, I did not intend to derail or disrupt the thread. The stats just looked very odd on the portal page and I see you have started another thread to address that issue.

[Bex]

Not that I mean to be a one trick pony here, but I went on to the petition site, and see that the figures are not moving at all. Certainly between all of us who have been posting on this thread, do we not know 50 people between us? 100? If you look on the internet, the UK people are incredibly motivated about this issue. So, what is the trick to get us to respond the same way? I got an email from someone from this group this morning:
http://pembrokeshireagainstthecull.org.uk/
who says that they have been watching the issue in Ireland, as it has been going on here for a LONG time and is so widespread, and yet they had no idea of any organisation over here to contact.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" Mahatma Gandhi

I must say that Ireland does not fare very well, then, at the moment.

[fluffybiscuits]

Not that I mean to be a one trick pony here, but I went on to the petition site, and see that the figures are not moving at all. Certainly between all of us who have been posting on this thread, do we not know 50 people between us? 100? If you look on the internet, the UK people are incredibly motivated about this issue. So, what is the trick to get us to respond the same way? I got an email from someone from this group this morning:
http://pembrokeshireagainstthecull.org.uk/
who says that they have been watching the issue in Ireland, as it has been going on here for a LONG time and is so widespread, and yet they had no idea of any organisation over here to contact.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" Mahatma Gandhi

I must say that Ireland does not fare very well, then, at the moment.

There has to be a huge amount of interest in this considering the amount of coverage it has been getting on here with the thread views. A lot of people are probably aware of what is happening but as it the case are apathetic (this drives me insane). Dont give up the fight though. :)

[Bex]

Thanks, Fluffy. I was going to bump this thread up today. As with everything, it appears many people suffer from a lack of an attention span. Issues like this start of great guns, and then peter out pretty quickly. Although, in the hierarchy of things, we are often impotent to effect many changes in our lives, this is one small issue where change can be had. Regrettably, the online petition, however insignificant as it may be, has had very little activity. Farmers are so indoctrinated to policies fed to them by others (who make a profit on these policies, at the expense of the farmer), that this mindset is quite difficult to penetrate. Sadly.

[Bex]

Well, the cull is over in my area, and this episode has brought to light something far more sinister with the way various government offices work, in this case, the Department of Agriculture. Perhaps this would be better posted in a civil liberties portion of this forum, but for anyone interested, the Dept. of Agriculture allegedly sends out a notice to landowners (by regular post, so no real confirmation of this action), asking permission to go on private lands in order to perform their business. However, at the bottom of this notice, is this notation:
N.B WHERE NO REPLY IS RECEIVED ON FOOT OF THIS NOTICE, IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT THE KEEPER TO WHOM THE NOTICE IS SENT HAS NO OBJECTIONS TO STAFF FROM THIS DEPARTMENT CARRYING OUT THEIR DUTIES AS NECESSARY ON LANDS FARMED BY HIM/HER.

This is rather interesting, and, in a free democracy, just a bit frightening. Forgetting the moral issue of whether or not you agree with culling, the above notation infers consent through lack of response. In other words, it infers agreement unilaterally, when no response is given. In law, it is impossible to have a contractual agreement without both parties being aware of the conditions of the agreement. You cannot make, nor change, an agreement without both parties consent. Presumably, there will be times when no response can be given to the DofA notice, ie, no receipt of the notice, wrong address, or even, just never sent at all. There is no proof that the notice is even mailed out, other than the 'word' of the DofA, particularly as it is not sent as a registered mailing.
Consider this scenario: Someone comes to your door, rings the doorbell, and you do not respond. That person then assumes that you have no objection to them entering your home.
When I had my conversations with the DofA regarding the culling issue in my townland, they confirmed to me that the landowner had consented to this action. I then decided to go to the land registry to see who the actual landowner was, on the fields where the culling was taking place. Turns out, the registered owner is......dead.
(Headlines: Dept of Agriculture Resorts to Seance to Obtain Registered Owner's Consent)
So, what exactly does this mean? It means that departments of the government have decided that your privacy, your personal possessions, your response, your opinions are totally unnecessary when they decide they want access.
This issue goes way beyond culling and encroaches on your civil liberties.
This is not the way a democratic government department operates.
I have sent a complaint to the Ombudsman concerning this issue.

[fluffybiscuits]

Well, the cull is over in my area, and this episode has brought to light something far more sinister with the way various government offices work, in this case, the Department of Agriculture. Perhaps this would be better posted in a civil liberties portion of this forum, but for anyone interested, the Dept. of Agriculture allegedly sends out a notice to landowners (by regular post, so no real confirmation of this action), asking permission to go on private lands in order to perform their business. However, at the bottom of this notice, is this notation:
N.B WHERE NO REPLY IS RECEIVED ON FOOT OF THIS NOTICE, IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT THE KEEPER TO WHOM THE NOTICE IS SENT HAS NO OBJECTIONS TO STAFF FROM THIS DEPARTMENT CARRYING OUT THEIR DUTIES AS NECESSARY ON LANDS FARMED BY HIM/HER.

This is rather interesting, and, in a free democracy, just a bit frightening. Forgetting the moral issue of whether or not you agree with culling, the above notation infers consent through lack of response. In other words, it infers agreement unilaterally, when no response is given. In law, it is impossible to have a contractual agreement without both parties being aware of the conditions of the agreement. You cannot make, nor change, an agreement without both parties consent. Presumably, there will be times when no response can be given to the DofA notice, ie, no receipt of the notice, wrong address, or even, just never sent at all. There is no proof that the notice is even mailed out, other than the 'word' of the DofA, particularly as it is not sent as a registered mailing.
Consider this scenario: Someone comes to your door, rings the doorbell, and you do not respond. That person then assumes that you have no objection to them entering your home.
When I had my conversations with the DofA regarding the culling issue in my townland, they confirmed to me that the landowner had consented to this action. I then decided to go to the land registry to see who the actual landowner was, on the fields where the culling was taking place. Turns out, the registered owner is......dead.
(Headlines: Dept of Agriculture Resorts to Seance to Obtain Registered Owner's Consent)
So, what exactly does this mean? It means that departments of the government have decided that your privacy, your personal possessions, your response, your opinions are totally unnecessary when they decide they want access.
This issue goes way beyond culling and encroaches on your civil liberties.
This is not the way a democratic government department operates.
I have sent a complaint to the Ombudsman concerning this issue.

Does this not raise a whole heap of issues for staff where they are entering lands ? Could they not be done for trespassing under the legislation, incursion on to private property? Let me know what you find out in relation to this, would be interested on getting an update. I heard it being discussed on the Scott Williams show I think it was on Q102 a few weeks back, wonder did someone on the show read the thread here.

[Bex]

Thanks, Fluffy, will see if I can find some info on the internet re that Scott Williams show. My paranoia aside, the Dept. of Agriculture is beginning to seem to me like the stuff anti-government novels are made of, giant arms of government permeating all facets of government and private life. The Dept. of Wildlife is completely governed by them, even though these two departments often have differing goals - nevertheless the Dof Wildlife must acquiesce to the strong arm of the Dof Agriculture. Even more interesting at the moment, there is one farmer in my area who is not allowing the 'field relief operators' from the Dof Agriculture to cull on his farm. He is now being harassed by those operators, with incessant phone calls and threatening innuendo, if he does not comply. Perhaps these operators (whom I assume are free lance and not actual DofA employees) are paid by the pelt. In any event, this farmer has been advised that if this contact continues, he needs to contact the gardai. This is really beginning to sound like Evil Empire.

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.farminguk.com/news/FUW-ACCUSES-MINISTER-OF-BETRAYING-FARMERS-OVER-BADGER-CULL-DELAY_22371.html

Farmers having a whinge that they feel betrayed. Farmers Union of Wales moaning that its costing them in terms of loss of cattle .

[Bex]

The basic answer to this entire issue is so ridiculously simple, it's almost pathetic. First, it's interesting to note a bit of history here. In the early part of the 20th century, TB was epidemic, for a number of reasons - lack of hygiene, poor living conditions, etc., but, more importantly, TB being spread from cattle to humans in raw milk. The big push began to 'eradicate' TB in cattle, due to this human health issue. Having bTB free cattle became a major issue. Next stop: pastuerization of milk and the human TB vaccine (BCG). The human health issue is pretty much tackled, however, the bovine TB issue takes on a life of its own, and, although the initial stimulus, the human health issue, is no longer part of the scenario, the process continues for bTB free cattle. Cattle testing continues, and any 'reactor' (which can still appear healthy) is killed, herds quarantined, etc,. etc. The TB test, in itself, is not an end all, nor tremendously accurate, and does not even mean that the cow is necessarily ill or infectious with TB. We all are confronted with this bacteria all the time - for those not vaccinated, it is only when the immune system is compromised that the bacteria can take hold. It is the same with cattle. But more interestingly, TB reactor cattle do go into the human food chain - areas of meat where there are actual lesions(!) are cut out, and the rest of the carcass processed for human meat (the more questionable meat goes into pet food). Most cattle are killed by 30 months or so, so, considering the amount of time it takes for TB to actually become active, this is barely an issue in meat. And cooking destroys the TB bacteria. The issue becomes more predominant in dairy cattle that live longer. Even so, the milk is still pasteurized for human consumption.
Farmer responsibility notwithstanding (ie, no overpopulation, unhygienic conditions, etc., which would make cattle more 'stressed' and deplete their immune system), there is a fairly simple solution.
Vaccinating cattle. The 'old' argument was that it was impossible to tell whether a cow would be a reactor from the vaccine, or from the actual bacteria. Next year, the DIVA test comes out, which can Differentiate between Infection and Vaccine. So, that problem is pretty much solved. The only problem that is left is to change EU legislation, which disallows ANY reactor, does not allow these herds to be considered 'prime', etc. It is solely a financial issue to the farmer, nothing more.
The strange point of the whole thing is that this is not a human health issue. So, frankly, what is the point? We are only raising these cattle for human consumption, and if bTB is not a human health issue....then, so what?

[C. Flower]

Spellman has approved two badger culls for after the Olympics, when there will be enough police free.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/8957410/Badger-cull-gets-go-ahead-with-Olympic-sized-police-operation.html


Caroline Spelman, the Environment Secretary, set the Government on course for a showdown with animal rights protesters yesterday by approving culls in two trial areas in an attempt to control bovine TB.
The trials will take place in “late autumn” after police chiefs warned that forces would struggle to provide the manpower required to prevent clashes between protesters and farmers if culls took place in the run up to London 2012.

It is estimated that keeping order during the four-year pilot scheme will cost around £4 million.
The badger cull is expected to lead to a 16 per cent reduction in bovine TB, which was behind the slaughter of 25,000 cattle in England last year.
To be effective, 75 per cent of badgers in the two 150 square-kilometre trial areas will have to be shot, according to calculations. The last count 10 years ago estimated that there were 350,000 badgers in Britain.

[Bex]

Spelman had previously been advised that going ahead with the cull would be political suicide for her. I imagine she's 'between a rock and a hard place', with the farming lobby on one side, and the animal rights people on the other. With this scheduled for late autumn, it gives animal activists plenty of time to launch court cases etc. So, this is more like 'watch this space'. The amusing thing about DEFRA's blurb on this subject, is that they still advise the public that part of the reason for this is human health. Presumably this is to attempt to get additional support.
In Ireland, the Dept. of Ag is currently doing a 'survey' to determine the remaining population of badgers here. It is assumed that there is no where near the UK amount left here - more probably under 80,000.

[Andrew49]

The UK government announced a badger cull pilot program on January 19, 2012. Free-running badgers will be gunned down for six-week August trials in west Gloucestershire and west Somerset, as part of an Environment Department (Defra) pilot

LINK (http://forcechange.com/12038/stop-british-sharpshooters-from-slaughtering-badgers/)

[Bex]

Yes, apparently farmers are already 'lining up' to get their licenses to do this. It is interesting to note that in many of the areas where this has been approved, the farming lobby only represents a small percentage of the local population. Yet they are active enough to be able to influence politicians to support their stance on this matter.
However, August is still somewhat in the future, and there are a number of anti-cull activist groups who are currently investigating whether and how to launch a legal action to at least delay this, if not stop it altogether. On a similar note, it has also been reported in a number of newspapers that the incidence of badger baiting has risen in England. Certainly, farmers are the 'stewards' of the countryside.....Remember this is not a human health issue on any level. This is only and solely an economic issue for the beef industry.

[fluffybiscuits]

Yes, apparently farmers are already 'lining up' to get their licenses to do this. It is interesting to note that in many of the areas where this has been approved, the farming lobby only represents a small percentage of the local population. Yet they are active enough to be able to influence politicians to support their stance on this matter.
However, August is still somewhat in the future, and there are a number of anti-cull activist groups who are currently investigating whether and how to launch a legal action to at least delay this, if not stop it altogether. On a similar note, it has also been reported in a number of newspapers that the incidence of badger baiting has risen in England. Certainly, farmers are the 'stewards' of the countryside.....Remember this is not a human health issue on any level. This is only and solely an economic issue for the beef industry.


From what legal avenue could we take it? It has been shown that there is very little evidence of the transmission in huge quantatites with the badgers as vectors. Perhaps the places to aim are places like Macra na Feirme with the young people. Get them involved and get them to question the validity of the practice of shooting badgers . Big profit to be made in the beef industry. How much are the Dept payinh for those pellets?

[Bex]

Groups in the UK have previously been successful in delaying culling due to legal technicalities in their specific cases, in the hopes that they would be able to prove that culling is in direct violation of conventions that list badgers as a protected species, etc. In the larger picture, they hope to prove that such culling is based on flawed science. Certainly, in Ireland, that seems to be the case. The DofA 'scientists' came to a conclusion, around 1996, that badgers were a major cause of bTB in cattle, and, arriving at that conclusion, have set about to attempt to fashion their scientific data to support that. I would assume that normally the scientific conclusion comes after trials and experiments, rather than before, which, unfortunately, is the case here. The entire Irish scenario is based on 'trickery', in that, although snares are most definitely, and inhumanely, used here, the Irish government gets around this by calling them 'restraints'. The entire process is inhumane, draconian, and based on questionable science from the start. The farming community has been led to believe that badgers are the cause of this dilemma (and now deer are also entering into the picture, to be culled), and basically follow the 'science' set out by the DofA. Vets perpetuate this as, frankly, this disease and 'treatment' support many of them. Unfortunately, there is such a divide in Ireland, between urban and rural communities, that urban communities tend not to become involved in rural issues, unlike the UK. The DofA continues to insist that their program has caused the reduction of bTB in the South, specifically due to culling. It is interesting to note that there has also been a parallel reduction of bTB in the North, as well, and they have not culled in the North. DofA continues to insist that this fact is 'meaningless'.

[fluffybiscuits]

Groups in the UK have previously been successful in delaying culling due to legal technicalities in their specific cases, in the hopes that they would be able to prove that culling is in direct violation of conventions that list badgers as a protected species, etc. In the larger picture, they hope to prove that such culling is based on flawed science. Certainly, in Ireland, that seems to be the case. The DofA 'scientists' came to a conclusion, around 1996, that badgers were a major cause of bTB in cattle, and, arriving at that conclusion, have set about to attempt to fashion their scientific data to support that. I would assume that normally the scientific conclusion comes after trials and experiments, rather than before, which, unfortunately, is the case here. The entire Irish scenario is based on 'trickery', in that, although snares are most definitely, and inhumanely, used here, the Irish government gets around this by calling them 'restraints'. The entire process is inhumane, draconian, and based on questionable science from the start. The farming community has been led to believe that badgers are the cause of this dilemma (and now deer are also entering into the picture, to be culled), and basically follow the 'science' set out by the DofA. Vets perpetuate this as, frankly, this disease and 'treatment' support many of them. Unfortunately, there is such a divide in Ireland, between urban and rural communities, that urban communities tend not to become involved in rural issues, unlike the UK. The DofA continues to insist that their program has caused the reduction of bTB in the South, specifically due to culling. It is interesting to note that there has also been a parallel reduction of bTB in the North, as well, and they have not culled in the North. DofA continues to insist that this fact is 'meaningless'.


That expression "there are lie, damned lies and statistics" that comes to mind. They are presenting their data to say they believe that badger numbers contribute to TB but yet the stats from NI show otherwise. Perhaps the DofA are the ones intertpreting the statistics wrong. I do reckon there is another reservoir which is a vector or host for TB that they have overlooked and has yet to be found.

[Bex]

I do reckon there is another reservoir which is a vector or host for TB that they have overlooked

Yup! It's called 'cattle'. Bovine TB is a cattle disease, originating in cattle, and through them, spread to other wildlife (and even, in the past, to humans). This is one of the few situations where the victim (badgers) are blamed and destroyed, for what is essentially a bovine disease. The current logic is to vaccinate the victim - badger - (essentially similar to humans being vaccinated as one of the measures against bTB, among others), by reducing wildlife populations so that vaccination is feasible. Which basically allows the underlying problem to perpetuate, that of the incidence of bTB in cattle, and why it occurs. I would think that the 'science' finds that the reason for this is similar to the reason for the human variant of TB - TB is a naturally occurring bacteria, Ireland and the UK are favorable environments (damp, mild, etc.). The human variant was reduced tremendously in human populations through hygiene, less crowded living conditions and vaccination, etc. This, however, was done through science that was driven by an altruism for the human condition, as opposed to economy and industry, which appears to be driving the 'scientific' process here. Regrettably.

[Donal Og]

Yup! It's called 'cattle'. Bovine TB is a cattle disease, originating in cattle, and through them, spread to other wildlife (and even, in the past, to humans). This is one of the few situations where the victim (badgers) are blamed and destroyed, for what is essentially a bovine disease. The current logic is to vaccinate the victim - badger - (essentially similar to humans being vaccinated as one of the measures against bTB, among others), by reducing wildlife populations so that vaccination is feasible. Which basically allows the underlying problem to perpetuate, that of the incidence of bTB in cattle, and why it occurs. I would think that the 'science' finds that the reason for this is similar to the reason for the human variant of TB - TB is a naturally occurring bacteria, Ireland and the UK are favorable environments (damp, mild, etc.). The human variant was reduced tremendously in human populations through hygiene, less crowded living conditions and vaccination, etc. This, however, was done through science that was driven by an altruism for the human condition, as opposed to economy and industry, which appears to be driving the 'scientific' process here. Regrettably.

Foot and mouth is similar,from what i know at least.Its just there,like flu is it not? Icould be wrong Bex!

[Bex]

I am certainly no expert in this, and only started studying this when our 'Big Brother' Dept of Agriculture bulldozed its way into my sleepy little townland. But certainly, these diseases, whether bacterial or viral, are naturally occurring. It would seem unlikely that their occurrence in nature can be diminished, other than diminishing the environments that hosts them. It seems to make sense that, in the same way as with humans, an animal is more susceptible to these 'invasions' when their immune system is compromised, or they are stressed, etc. Industrialized farming, over-population of herds, cramped and unhygienic winter housing all seems to contribute to the problem. But it is far easier just to wipe out the badger, who truly is an innocent victim in this situation.

[5intheface]

Nice hobby;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16847079

[Bex]

Badgers can be pretty ferocious - especially when cornered and/or fighting for their lives. Any moron who decides it's a great idea to let their dog confront them, should be kept far away from all pets and animals. It is appalling how people can be so ignorant, and frankly, I have never understood the 'kick' some people get out of doing things like this. Pretty weird.
Although I have actually had farmers say to me 'badgers are not income producing, who cares about them', much of this is probably exacerbated by all the government propaganda that the 'stewards of the countryside' believe about how badgers are detrimental to cattle, etc. However, as most people now have access to the internet, there is no longer an excuse for such ignorance. The science, or lack thereof, is now quite available for anyone to read.

[Sentinel55]

I know some farmers who have removed badger snares from their land...

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.herald.ie/lifestyle/ongoing-culling-of-badgers-is-destroying-our-natural-heritage-3024062.html

71k badgers culled in Ireland since 1995. Interesting note at the end that says


Mark believes the destruction of local populations is against the spirit of the Berne convention of 1979, under which the badger is protected in Europe.

Groups in England are going to make a stand against culling and complain to the organisation responsible. Could the same be done here?

http://www.aboutmyarea.co.uk/Cheshire/Neston/CH64/News/Local-News/217171-Neston-MP-Supports-Official-Complaint-Against-Badger-Cull

They have the support of Bill Oddie, the naturalist .

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17321086

Seems the British governments tactics of backing the badger cull is not really based on sound scientific evidence a new report release. Disturbing the badgers and making them roam for miles around just increases the spread of the disease rather then elminating it thereby increasing the chance of more herds catching it. They need to cull thousands of badgers at the same time in order for the cull to have any effect. Dept of Agriculture please take note...

[C. Flower]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17321086

Seems the British governments tactics of backing the badger cull is not really based on sound scientific evidence a new report release. Disturbing the badgers and making them roam for miles around just increases the spread of the disease rather then elminating it thereby increasing the chance of more herds catching it. They need to cull thousands of badgers at the same time in order for the cull to have any effect. Dept of Agriculture please take note...

Would they need to carpet bomb the whole country to solve the badger problem then ?

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jul/12/badger-cull-legal-high-court

Fail fail and fail again for the British courts. The decision was based entirely on legal arguments and not scientific arguments. The decision means thousands of badgers could be culled.

[Dr. FIVE]

coming up on drivetime shortly

[C. Flower]

coming up on drivetime shortly

Did anyone hear it ?

[5intheface]

Did anyone hear it ?

No but possibly to do with the pilot plan to go ahead with the wholesale slaughter of badgers in 2 areas in the west of England.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19623931

The Scientist whose research is being used to justify the cull has described the plan as 'crazy'.

[fluffybiscuits]

No but possibly to do with the pilot plan to go ahead with the wholesale slaughter of badgers in 2 areas in the west of England.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19623931

The Scientist whose research is being used to justify the cull has described the plan as 'crazy'.

No point in explaining it to the establishment there in the UK. There is a simple solution to all of this.Mount the trough on a wall where the badgers cant reach and TB doesnt spread....

[Holly]

Vaccination rather than slaughtering wildlife is the answer.

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j480/rogerduke1/JervisStreet.jpg
Jervis Street, Dublin

[fluffybiscuits]

Vaccination rather than slaughtering wildlife is the answer.




That would be the best solution to try and cut down on the transmission of TB. There was a large scale vaccination of badgers recently in Wales which met with much furore from the farmers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-18440034). One thing that is always cited is cost, that its cheaper to cull the poor creatures than to vaccinate them. When cost is involved, the thoughts of all life are forgotten about....

[DCon]

Tomorrow's London Indo suggests a new vaccine may spell an end to Badger Culls

https://twitpic.com/show/iphone/b21lb2

[C. Flower]

Happy days for badgers. They have enough trouble crossing roads, without being pursued in the woods and fields too.

[DCon]

The Independent article is here: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/vaccine-breakthrough-may-mean-no-more-badger-culls-8201315.html

The change seems to be an improved TB test which can differentiate between cows with the TB vaccine and cows with TB.

[DCon]

Britain's top animal disease scientists have launched a devastating attack on the government's "mindless" badger cull, accusing ministers of failing to tell the truth and demanding the immediate abandonment of the killings.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/oct/13/badger-cull-mindless

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/oct/13/badger-cull-mindless

Voices of reason at last. Took long enough too.

[Dr. FIVE]

Cost of badger cull may force U-turn

Badger populations in Gloucestershire and Somerset far higher than initial estimates, meaning cull may prove too expensive

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/oct/18/cost-badger-cull-u-turn

[fluffybiscuits]

Cost of badger cull may force U-turn

Badger populations in Gloucestershire and Somerset far higher than initial estimates, meaning cull may prove too expensive

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/oct/18/cost-badger-cull-u-turn

Thrilled to hear it. There are simple preventative measures that can be put in place which I wrote about earlier in this thread that are effective. TB is well understood so there should be enough information available to govt officials at the Dept of Agriculture to put risk assessments in place to prevent TB arising.

[Dr. FIVE]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A5vfT0sCcAAemyw.jpg

[DCon]

"Reprieve for Badgers" is amonst the Sky News top of the hour headlines

[Trow]

Not nice......
POLICE in Coleraine are appealing for information following the death of four badgers in the Ballylagan Road area, Mullinabrone on Tuesday, October 16.

A PSNI Wildlife Officer confirmed that the badgers have been shot.
http://www.colerainetimes.co.uk/news/local/four-badgers-were-shot-1-4501750